Idaho Stop for Cyclists? Drivers Already Do It!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- Stop means stop, right? One of the most common criticisms you see about cyclists in an urban environment is that they don't stop at stop signs, but what people seem to be forgetting is that drivers don't either. In this video we present original groundbreaking research on the stop sign habits of motorists and discuss what this should mean for cyclists.
Support our work/watch more:
Patreon: / ohtheurbanity
Urbanism playlist: • Housing
Subscribe for more videos: / @ohtheurbanity
#cycling #stopsigns #cyclists #driving #bikecommuting #trafficlaws
Another thing about stop signs for cyclists is that due to their low acceleration, forcing them to stop will make it so they spend way more time on the intersection, endangering themselves and obstructing the flow of traffic
That's the biggest thing for myself, and anyone I know. Starting from a dead stop takes a good 5 seconds or more, depending on incline. Creeping along at a few cm/s makes the startup less than a second as it's just a shift of weight to get going since both feet are already on the pedals. It's not a motorbike; I can't just give it a little gas with my foot still propping the bike up. Lol
@@Rafael_Fuchs Traffic lights also bear this issue for cyclists... roundabouts waayyyyyy less since (in the netherlands) cyclists have priority mostly over car traffic (in cities, out of cities its mostly the other way around (probably due to less cyclists overal or something))
"Low acceleration"? Are you kidding me?
When I ride in town, I tend to take the lane (assuming no bike lanes or lanes that aren't filled with trash cans and parked cars). So I find myself behind cars at stop lights quite a bit. And I always have to be careful when I start moving out of fear I'll run into the back of them. Heck, even if I'm second-in-line (so there's a car in front of me and nobody in front of them), I still find I'm not that far behind the car when the light goes green.
How is this possible? Well, here's the thing--before I come to a stop, I downshift. The lower gears on a bicycle--like a car--provide more torque which means better acceleration at the cost of top speed. So when I start pedaling, I can accelerate faster and then I can up-shift. This makes starting easier and faster.
Second, your "spending more time in the intersection is dangerous" argument is a bit ridiculous. It's the amount of time you spend in the intersection and the speed of the cars. If there were no cars, there would be nothing dangerous about the intersection. So if you're saying you can't safely get across the intersection unless you're going at high speed, you probably should consider stopping and waiting for a safer opportunity rather than trying to judge just how fast you need to be going so you can sneak in between two cars traveling at high rates of speed.
Remember, your safety starts with you.
@@petermerchant4439 I downshift, but I'm not a super stud like you, so I can't out accelerate the 250 HP+ beasts I share the roads with. 100,000 miles and several decades ago, when cars didn't have so much power and I was younger and stronger, I sometimes could, but those days are gone.
@@petermerchant4439 not everyone has gears on their bikes. LOTS of single speed bikes where I am. Most bikers accelerate lower from a dead stop....maybe not you. The rest of us prefer to carry our momentum from rolling into riding.
Great video! I hate when people say this about cyclists because cars do the same thing but they just don't even notice it anymore because it's so commonplace.
@@MrWhite-pn7ui my issue is with people that single out bikes for breaking the rules and act as if only bikes break the rules. Studies show that a similar number of cyclists and drivers break the rules and I wish it weren't that high for both. But I at least recognize that both do.
@@MrWhite-pn7ui depends which city you're in. Montréal hands out 42x more tickets to cyclists than Toronto. Not still as high as drivers getting ticketed but not only do drivers pose a much higher risk when they break laws, it also doesn't seem like the tickets are a deterrent because they still infract quite regularly.
@@MrWhite-pn7ui that's what I'm saying! They both infract at a similar rate. Infractions = equal. More dangerous = cars.
@@MrWhite-pn7ui I'm a former motor technician, and if you think that a "new car" is automatically safer because it received a safety rewards from a non-profit funded by automotive insurance companies then you aren't considering many, many obvious factors. Making cars safer for drivers and passengers, hey I approve, but it's not the same as making them safer for everyone else on the road. There are many things that play a part in the general ability to safely stop or safely accelerate. Mainly the human element, defective parts, and worn safety materials such as failing brakes or a faulty idle control. There's a reason technicians should NEVER stand in front of a moving vehicle as they spot for the other technician who is pulling a vehicle into a bay for work. Many places also require the driver door to be operable with a window that can be rolled down in order to have access to quick escapes and to allow for call and respond procedure. The drivers are more protected _sometimes,_ but the pedestrians that are hit never receive any benefits from that "protection". The Institute for Highway Safety gives out recommendations for vehicles based on factors involved in their crash tests. The crash testing criteria comes down to sustaining the integrity of the passenger and drivers.
As a driver of a 2012 Nissan Ultima I can tell you that I received a recall notice for defective Takata airbags... Airbags that can blast shrapnel into my face and kill me. These defective Takata airbag inflators were used in many makes and models of similar year, but the recall has been going to this day. I can also tell you that my vehicle has extremely low torque, and effectively a very low acceleration rate. Comparing that to the high volume of Ford GTs and Dodge Chargers where I live, I can still seriously injure someone any time I turn without paying attention, the only difference is I'm less likely to do it. Then consider the higher acceleration sports cars or the motor vehicles with more mass and more power needed to move, such as trucks and SUVs, into the equation and it's obvious that motor vehicles with stronger torque and/or higher mass than mine are even more dangerous in the hands of reckless drivers.
If you seriously think a motor vehicle weighing in at roughly three thousand pounds is somehow less dangerous than a bicycle at around twenty pounds then:
1. You don't understand the physics.
2. You don't understand traffic safety.
3. You don't understand motor vehicles.
4. You don't understand bicycles.
5. You don't understand the problem.
6. You don't understand the solution.
If you read this, then I hope you understand now.
@@MrWhite-pn7ui first, cars are not incredibly safe, that's a big overstatement. Outside the car is where they're really dangerous. Safety ratings only concern the occupants. For pedestrians and cyclists, cars pose a large risk. Especially as we switch to bigger and heavier SUVs with tall hoods and larger blindspots. Cars are one of the leading causes of death for children and thousands of people die or get injured by cars every year. Sure, it can be pretty easy for someone to injure themselves on a bike if they want to but most city commuters just want to get where they're going and there have been virtually no cycling deaths that don't include cars. It's much easier for someone to hurt themselves or others when they're inside a multi-tonne car that can quickly reach speeds of 100kmh+.
I will openly admit that when I'm driving I will use an Idaho stop without even thinking about it. I only became aware when my mom pointed it out as a passenger. This is why I don't like driving. I hate that I become impatient, irritable and angry over minor things that in the end make almost no difference in travel time. Whatever time I conserved by blasting through a yellow light I'll pay later at an intersection or light anyway. It's like the car is an id amplifier. The online complainers are just jealous because they wish they had the perceived freedom of a cyclist. But that's the "freedom" paradox of cars- sure you can drive anywhere but you're still locked into a series of roads and laws and that's frustrating because "dude I got all this horsepower" and you're still waiting at a light 😛
For us there's a big difference between driving in the country compared to the city. Country driving is fine, sometimes even pleasant, but when you add a bunch of other people driving, the experience becomes aggravating and irritating, just like you say. That's partly why we're so confused when people support car-centric development in cities-why would anyone want to drive in cities unless they really need to (tools, etc.)! And very well said on the paradox of freedom with cars.
@@OhTheUrbanity I think inertia is largely to blame when it comes to supporting new car-centric development. There are 3-4 generations of North Americans who know nothing but car-centric infrastructure. Anything different is very shocking to our built in bias towards cars. My town is just finishing a pilot program where they added advisory bike lanes to a low traffic road for about 3/4 of a mile, the pilot was only 3 weeks long. You would've thought the town tore up all the streets and declared they were coming to take peoples' cars with the reaction after the first day it was in, it was pretty hilarious.
@@OhTheUrbanity So true. Driving in cities are such a pain. I once accidentally drove down Young street in Toronto. It was patient and it was nice to drive slow but I would prefer to be walking or biking.
Also, finding parking in cities is annoying. Even in the Kitchener and Waterloo area. You can't park where you would like to park like you can with a bike. Since with a bike you can park a lot more bikes in one area than a couple cars.
@@johnkeller5163 "Disorderly lawlessness" just wow. All I need are sidewalks and decent infrastructure man, I'm trying to walk to where I need to go and high speed stroads with 8 lanes don't make it easy to cross. I can't even count how many times I've almost been run over by a car turning left when I clearly have the walk signal on walk, and I'm *already* in the crosswalk. I live by a grocery store across that giant stroad, but because of the poor design it's absolutely terrible to cross and walk even that short distance. I think the disorderly lawlessness and danger is coming from the people that are in really safe (for them) high speed metal boxes.
@@johnkeller5163 You think I'm not moving with purpose? I'd be dead if I wasn't
I live in Europe and I always stop for stop signs.
They're usually placed in the most dangerous places, where you can't see incoming cars.
In all other cases, small intersections are either 4-way right hand rule ones, or give way ones.
@Cladaës Is this a joke and I don't get it?
@Cladaës ah, but stop signs would require drivers to be able to read... that might explain the roling stops, they have to slow to read S. T. O. P. Stop! Too late nvm.
You always stop for stop signs because in Europe, stop signs are actually placed where they are needed instead of everywhere always unless someone has a good reason to use something different.
putting STOP signs everywhere rather than just where they are needed is counterproductive. in the UK most junctions are guarded by a give way sign even roundabouts, stop signs are only for where there is limited vision.
regard it as the boy who called wolf, fairly soon people start ignoring it.
Pretend yield signs don't exist anywhere. Welcome to north America.
We have stops signs where I can see far enough in all directions where I would be safe from 100 km/h traffic while on a 50 road and have seen that for 10 seconds or more while approaching the intersection. No one is coming in any direction and I'm required to come to full and complete stop.
I'm from the UK and moved to Ottawa. Can confirm that it's rare to even see stop signs in the UK. They just don't exist except in exceptional circumstances. When you see one, you know you really *have* to stop because otherwise it would be dangerous.
Original stop signs were meant for unclear intersections, where you really need to stop to clearly see the traffic on the other road. But in North-America it used often at very clear crossings, as a way to lower car speeds in residential areas. Since bicycles do not go do fast in the first place, this use makes no sense for cyclists.
The best solution would be to design the streets in residential areas that car drivers automatically lower their speed, and safe stop signs for unclear intersections where everybody needs to stop.
It's not just familiarity for drivers; in the USA it's the priviledged constant thinking that "might makes right". In other words, "I deserve better because I'm bigger and I can kill you". ("And BTW, I want to scare you by making sure you understand that, too.") The whole country is built on that, and has been since I was a kid -- a very long time ago at this point.
I see this in Denmark, too. Drivers will speed up before a pedestrian crossing, just to make it known that they _will_ kill you if you force them to slow down and add 5-10 seconds to their commute. The thing is, they only do this on straight, wide roads, regardless of whether it's in the city, the outskirts or in the countryside. It's a testament to how much of traffic depends on the temperament of the most dangerous users, and how said temperament is shaped by bad car infrastructure.
I had a work colleague literally say that to me because I drive a 1200 lb GEM car that goes 25 mph. I suspect there was SOME humor in his intent, but only some - and it wasn't very funny.
@@TheNinetySecond Just let them test their brakes by putting one feet on the road and leaning forward
I hear ya. It has become really bad in the US. A few months ago, my coworkers and I were headed to lunch at a deli across the street. We cross at an intersection with crosswalks, and cross when the light turns green. This "Karen" blows through a red light to make a right turn, clipping my coworker as she swerves around him . She stops solely for the purpose of yelling at my coworker for getting in her way and "hitting" her car. While they argue, we call the cops, She quickly drove off as soon as she realized we were not bluffing. I still have no idea if the cops ever bothered to track her down (we gave them her plate number).
@@R3lay0a suggestion, maybe useful (for science or fun…); just a suggestion of yours
Not having blind spots is huge. When I show up at an intersection I've already looked down each road.
I've gotten in the habit of specifically leaning forward to look down the road whenever I cross ANY intersection whether I have a stop-sign or not because I just don't trust drivers. I was run over in the SIDEWALK once and was nearly run over in the sidewalk multiple times because drivers think the sidewalk and bikepath are the road and blindly barrel into it and block it for minutes while waiting for an opening to enter the road. The stop-sign WAS BEFORE THE SIDEWALK!!! 😡😡
As a Brit, I've always found the abundance of of stop signs in North America baffling. Being forced to stop when a junction is clear must be utterly infuriating; it's also less fuel inefficient, less smooth, and wears clutches out faster (although I believe manuals are far less common across the pond, so that's not quite as bad I guess). The measures suggested in the video seems like a much better way to promote safety on the road
thats why everyone rolls em
And the abundance of stop signs gives no cues differentiating a particularly dangerous intersection from a regular one. When you see a stop sign in Europe, you know you’ve got to be especially careful.
Too many Americans won't yield right of way without stop signs. A surprising amount ignore/don't understand Yield signs. A whole set of highway on ramp yield signs where I live got replaced by stop signs because of all the accidents caused by people not yielding.
That clutch thing is the only reason I roll stop signs, I have 4 of them within the span of 60 seconds when leaving my street to join the highway. When I'm in an auto, however, I habitually come to a complete stop
@@drh3b wait? Stop signs on a highway ramp? That's just outright dangerous!
Got stopped by police for ignoring a red light at a crosswalk (there was no road crossing, only a crosswalk between sidewalks) I came to a full stop to let the pedestrians cross and once they had I started gently rolling down the street. Then a police van pulled me over and gave me a long condescending lecture about obeying the rules of the road. Cops that drive around in their van all day think that the only way that you can stay safe on the road is to wait for minutes on end while your path lies empty in front of you -- because you never know when a light-speed pedestrian is gonna jump in front of your bike?
And FTR, I'm pretty sure those cops had to run that red light to catch up with me, despite being in a much bigger vehicle with many more blind spots. Go figure.
Have you seen those mini-roundabouts where 4 way stops used to be. I like those a lot of slowing cars and allowing cyclists to avoid stopping. They exist a lot in the Netherlands, but there are a couple in Hamilton where I live.
It's also interesting because I've rolled through a stop sign on a bike while right beside a car and noticed that we rolled at the same speed. It seems that because cars travel at, say 50km/h and roll at 10km/h though the stop sign, that is a stop, but because a cyclist is travelling at 12-15kp/h and slowing to 10km/h for the stop sign, it's considered flying right through.
Do you have any examples of those in Hamilton? Sounds interesting. If it's what I'm thinking, I've seen them in the UK but not in Canada. Also, good point about cars "slowing down more" because their initial speed is much higher.
@@OhTheUrbanity this is the only location I can recall in Hamilton: maps.app.goo.gl/ZHaV5hvb6NwVurnk9
I'd like to see this expanded a bit with a slanted curb similar to how the make a hard central island and a more mild and bumpy one for trucks. This island is too small to properly slow cars, but I do like this idea, as I know it is more common in Dutch suburbs.
@@OhTheUrbanity Vancouver has some mini traffic circles on residential streets, notably on the bike route along 10th in Kits. They have been associated with higher levels of collisions. www.kitsilano.ca/2013/02/18/traffic-circles-studies-show-theyre-dangerous-to-vancouver-cyclists/
@@OhTheUrbanity there's a roundabout at Skymark and Explorer in Mississauga. It's great! In an office / light industrial park near the airport and it's very lightly used by motor traffic (at least when I go through). Sightlines are great, so I don't have to slow down if there are no cars. We need more of these!
@@OhTheUrbanity here's one in Toronto! - goo.gl/maps/5Er55Pmuc1tNUvZSA - not sure if it was ever a 4-way stop in the past but it is still the smallest roundabout I've seen.
Finally, a perfect video to send to fellow Ottawa-residents who complain about cyclists not stopping at stop signs! Would love to see a video on another intersection-related topic: the length of light cycles. I've noticed a few intersections downtown where the delay between pressing a beg button and the light changing is 1-1.5min (Primrose and Bronson, pedestrian crossing on Albert between Bronson and Empress, Prince of Wales near the Arboretum). Imagine waiting 90s in a car for a light to change!
its only an issue when they dont yield. let the polluting vehicles go, dont make em idle for ya. and i say that as a cyclist
I just realized how often stop signs are used in North America. Im from the Netherlands and I think the last stop sign I've encountered over here was 20 years ago when they replaced the junction for a smart trafficlight junction.
EDIT: I just looked it up and according to wikipedia (and did check the source) it's not even legally binding signage in the Netherlands anymore because no one really stopped at it.
Yup, the Not Just Bikes channel specifically discussed this in one video about how stop-signs are rare out of North America where they're are almost EVERY intersection for no reason at all.
Great to see Ottawa/autowa footage! Great work, guys.
One day I sat at an 4 way-stop sign intersection here in Toronto for about 30 minutes, and I counted how many motor vehicles stopped. It was in a downtown medium density residential area. 8 out of 10 motor vehicles did not come to a complete stop. Only 20% obeyed the stop sign. And that is not separating out those who had to stop for a pedestrian or other vehicle. Those are raw stats. Great point about drivers routinely breaking the speed limit, BTW. Terrific video!
Life Sized City's Michael Colville Andersen did a similar, but pretty robust study on cyclists and motorists in Copenhagen. Not only did motorists break the law considerably more than cyclists, the cyclists almost exclusively broke the law after due diligence. Stuff like switching to the empty sidewalk in order to avoid a dangerous or time consuming turn, crossing at a red light when the street was empty, and a number of other very minor infractions that were all done politely and after checking whether or not it was safe.
North Americans love hating on cyclists for not following the rules of the road, but most of them actually do. When they _don't_ do it, it's usually small, safe and calculated risks to themselves, rather than anything even remotely close to driving 5km/h over the speed limit.
how does a 4 way-stop sign intersection even work? first come first serve?
(we don't have them and if we do... quite rare) the most stop signs on a 4 way intersection i have encounterd was 2, and in a different situation would those 2 stop signs have been yield signs.
@@DarkDutch007 Four way stops aren't too wild. There's 3 main situations:
1) If you arrive at different times, then the first to arrive goes first.
2) If you arrive simultaneously and the other person is across from you, then if you both are going straight you both go, if one is turning left they wait.
3) If you arrive simultaneously and not opposite, then the person to the right goes first.
People in cars, people on bikes, people on foot... we aren't so different.
Very often we are exactly the same person! 😉 I wish we made drivers spend a day on a bike to see things from our perspective.
@@knarf_on_a_bike true! though, sadly more cyclists have a driver's license than drivers regularly ride a bike.
Another thing that makes it difficult to compare bike's stops and car's stop is the fact that yes, when accelerating, cars use more gas, but when they don't stop, it is completely done out of lazyness, while it demands actual physical effort to accelerate each time for a cyclist and it takes him more time.
Good point about effort expended....that would have been a good thing to add!
Imagine stopping on a hill 😭 I would have to walk up until it becomes more flat/downhill
@@aranisivapiragasam5581 Living in Glasgow, I find myself in this exact situation on a regular basis :/ cycling uphill with angry drivers behind me is so not Gucci xx
@@aranisivapiragasam5581 downshift until it's easy enough to pedal. Uphill is a good time to get a workout for your legs and build up your strength.
Oh another urbanist channel! Subbed
Sub checklist:
Not just Bikes.
Shifter
Cheddar [sometimes]
@@paxundpeace9970 not a fan of cheddar, but I like not just bikes.
@@paxundpeace9970 You might also like City Beautiful
This has been the bane of my existence when it comes to motorists. They want to apply a very strict set of driving rules for cyclists without first checking to see that they themselves likely break several rules when driving. Also, motorists want cyclists to follow rules, but don't want to respect them as traffic.
I don’t care if you stop or not, just stay out of the way of my fucking car or start paying a road tax for using the road.
Great content, this deserves at least 1mil views! I will show this video to anyone who complains to me about rolling through stop signs.
Keep up the great work :)
I once got yelled at when I did actually stop, wait for my turn, and then went on with my bike. There was a driver that wanted to take my turn anyway. That taught me to zoom by all intersections with my eyes closed and hands off handlebars.
Yeah, it can be pretty hard to win in these situations sometimes!
The opposite happens to me a lot. They wave me through even though it’s not my turn.
@@drivers99 I once had someone stop and yield to me when I was trying to make a left turn from a suicide lane. No joke. Mfer came to a stop when everybody and their mom knows that the people in the middle lane yield to oncoming traffic
Keep it up! Nice to see Canadian urbanist content. Makes me miss living in Ottawa.
The “Idaho stop” is now legal here in Washington state as well. I appreciate how a practical measure I have long used is now formally legal and I won’t get a stupid ticket for rolling through a stop sign at an empty intersection.
@@MrWhite-pn7ui Because drivers of cars lack the unobstructed view that bike riders have, sit further back in their vehicles and have a harder time seeing cross traffic, often are moving much faster than bicycles, and have much longer stopping distances than bikes. What makes sense for one type of vehicle does not make sense for all types of vehicle.
@@MrWhite-pn7ui Whether or not the intersection is "all way stop" or not is irrelevant: a bicycle operator has a much better view of the intersection, and a shorter stopping distance than an automobile operator. Always stopping at stop signs makes sense for cars. Not so much for bicycles. Different vehicles have different properties and it is not a bad thing to have the law reflect this.
@@MrWhite-pn7ui No, sorry a car cannot “stop virtually the same as a bicycle.” (Nor, for that matter, can one accelerate as quickly, at least from a dead stop.) Such is the consequence of a vastly greater mass. Also, it is not as easy for the operator of a car to clearly see an intersection as it is for a bicycle rider (natural consequence of sitting further back in the vehicle and in an interior space).
Yes! Finally a video about this! I really don't get why this is not already the case.
Also 3:03 reminds me how my brother-in-law once did that but with a cargo train and it was so loud the kids started crying lol
We've heard about a few cities having considered the Idaho stop (Calgary, Montreal) but it never seems to actually result in a change to the law, unfortunately!
@@OhTheUrbanity Do you think it might be because the local biking communities in the respective areas need to step up their advocacy? I'm in the U.S.; and our state hasn't had a referendum, AFAIK; but our local bike shop (for instance) was barely acquainted with the Idaho Stop concept, much less actively supporting it.
Nice vid! It's fun to see my neighborhood in a youtube video
I'm one of the small percentage that actually comes to a complete stop in my car. Same with the motorcycle. It's fun to challenge yourself to stop completely then restart without putting a foot down on the moto. On the bicycle though? I'm blowing through like the breeze. My favorite is when I approach the stop sign just as a car is pulling away from it headed in the same direction. It's like having my own personal escort through the intersection 😀
I come to a complete stop at stop-signs even when the intersection is clearly _completely empty_ and waste time and gas but only out of fear of potential hidden scumbag cops who will pounce like a predator to -ticket- rob people because they're incapable of rational thought and understanding the PURPOSE of laws and will only blindly obey the letter of the law even when no harm was done. 😠
I'm a cyclist and I don't stop at stop signs why? Because I'm a pedestrian and not a car, I'm not in a motorized vehicle and therefore I have the right of way. Would you expect a person walking to stand at a stop sign? no that's ridiculous why do you expect bike? I only stop when I think a car is going to run a stop sign.
While I agree with you on one side, the other argument is that you might also try to claim the right of way on the road and take the lane when needed…so I act like a car, not a pedestrian in most cases.
In the USA bicycles are classed as a common carriage (The same as a car.) thus cyclists are entitled to the same rights and subject to the same restrictions and responsibilities as operators of automobiles except where the law specifies otherwise or where it can naturally have no applicability.
@@Alexander_C69 In that case we should take a whole lane on the road, RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE and force drivers on the other lane or to stay behind me. It's a two way street if you want to class me as a motorized vehicle.
@@Zarrx In most states it is legal for cyclists to ride in the middle of the lane and drivers can't legally do anything to prevent you of doing so, though do so is a bad idea in most situations as ridding to the furthest point right of the road puts more distance between you and the other traffic and gives car drivers move space to overtake without putting you at risk.
@@Alexander_C69 it's the best idea to go the furthest to the right because cars will illegally and dangerously over take you if you are in the middle of the lane.
Great video. I fully agree with your statement regarding normalized rule breaking from car drivers and the perveived lawlessness from cyclists.
I like to think that a bad cyclist is probably also a bad driver and a bad pedestrian. It’s not about your mode of transportation, it’s about the individuals.
Stop signs are just used superfluously in the US.
A bad cyclist or a pedestrian is practically a non-issue compared to a bad driver though.
In Utah it is like that, too. For bikes, stop signs are legally yield signs and red lights are stop signs. 👍
I loved your videos in Montreal -- seing your observations of neighbourhoods and cycle infrastructure from gound level. Welcome to Ottawa!
Thank you!
I roll stops quite often especially when there are NO cars, but also when they are 10+ metres away from the intersection or turning away from me. But still we constantly get yelled at by those cars even WHILE they roll their pickup past the stop sign. I get out of an intersection quicker than a car, get out of the way as to not get rear ended and also allows a car to pull up to the line and not have to wait for me. I’m also not driving a machine that could kill someone if I’m driving unaware.
Very well stated! I often am extra (overly) careful while cycling to just not be "that guy," but recently got the chance to explain a common situation to a coworker.
Cyclists are known for "blowing through" red lights as well, however if they are on the shoulder/their own cycling lane at the top line of a "T" 3-way intersection, then nobody should interact with them anyways if they're going straight through. This is a very common occurence but of course any driver that sees them "blow through" thinks they're crazy, reckless, suicidal, and must think they're above the law. In reality when cycling on that route, they may as well not even be in the intersection as they don't interact with it at all.
My coworker was blown away by this since they never cycle, and probably haven't touched a bike in nearly a decade.
There is another common situation where cyclists maybe should get some flack for, but probably get too much - if the light is red, but the pedestrian signal is on. If the cyclist blows through at speeds that could hurt pedestrians and doesn't have good visibility or its crowded, then they shouldn't use this. However if there was only one person (or literally nobody at a timed light), then there should be very little (if any) harm. Its also generally fine even in a somewhat crowded environment as long as they go at walking speed and move with the crowd.
My coworker didn't like this one as much since it sounds more lawless and like just wanting to "have it both ways," but my counter is this: as a car, do you want to be stuck behind/sharing space besides "those annoying cyclists" for even longer? Or would you rather they be on their way (and out of yours) sooner so you don't have to deal with them?
plus sitting in traffic breathing someone elses smog is lame af.
_[W]anting to 'have it both ways'_
Remind your coworker that traffic law is about SAFETY, not FAIRNESS. I can't kill anyone but myself when I ride a bicycle. There's no logical reason I should have to follow the exact same rules as the high-speed death cages just because we inhabit a similar physical space.
On one hand I think T intersections should have a small green bike only light that stays lit at all times to tell drivers that it's ok for the bikes in the bike lane to roll on through. On the other hand why should our tax money be spent trying to please people with no common sense or intelligence. Speed x inertia matters. Car heavier than bike. Car faster than bike. It's so simple a toddler could understand.
"It's difficult to take seriously..." Excellent writing, a hard thing to express without being combative.
Oh man! I was just talking with a friend this past week about cars rolling through stop signs. We were thinking about doing a similar thing. How did you guys choose the intersections?
We mainly picked them based on (1) being busy enough to get a good amount of data in 20 minutes but not too busy that the cars were difficult to count, and (2) having a good vantage point for us to see the cars without making it too obvious that we were watching them. We also wanted to cover a few different neighbourhoods, but we didn't give as much thought to the type of intersections/streets. There might be interesting patterns there though!
In Germany stop signs are not uncommon but rather used in specific intersection were a high priority is crossed by low priority roads with lower speeds.
But rolling over stop signs is so common that not even the police care about it.
Yield signs are common too.
usa/canada loves 4 way stops. absolutely braindead
They should only be used when a road that has to yield can't see the other roads well until they are actually at the stop line. aka you HAVE to stop to see the one you need to yield to.
That's how they are placed in the Netherlands and they are rare.
I feel like the Ottawa cycling network is a little underrated, lots of options. Thanks for doing a video here! :)
It's hilarious that people complain about cyclists never following the while every motorist will call every other driver incompetent and terrible. Somehow, they'll never want to ban driving because of that, just bikes.
In my experience as a pedestrian who moved to an area with more yield signs than stop signs, drivers almost never stop for pedestrians at yield signs and it's incredibly dangerous. I would favor keeping stop signs and no idaho stops altogether. Otherwise as a pedestrian, I would never trust that an incoming car to do a complete stop. It's already hard enough to gauge if a car would stop at a stop sign or roll over and hit me.
I live in Europe, and I can't remember ever seeing a stop sign.
I’m one to complain about cyclists not stopping at stop signs but you’ve convinced me otherwise
Still have to wrap my head about that they use kmph in Canada.
You'd expect miles because we're so close to the U.S.? It's been kilometers here since the 70s I believe.
@@OhTheUrbanity When i see all the roads and infrastructure i have to think about the US or England.
I still have to wrap my head around the US using mph
I recently found out that my state (Colorado) has adopted the law to allow to treat stop signs as yield signs, and stop lights as stop signs under certain conditions as long as it’s safe to go. I was really glad to find that out.
Wouldn't it be just better to change the stop signs to yield signs and leave the stop signs in situations where the are needed? Such as a intersection with very low visibility.
Letting people treat all stop signs like yield signs sounds like an incredibly lazy solution that creates dangerous intersections.
I was cycling through a junction on Friday that has a stop sign on the road to the right. Immediately ahead is a bike contraflow lane. One car pulled out in front of me impatiently and a second followed close behind and almost hit me in the side. I guess because they couldn't turn right, they expected me to turn left. That's probably the reason for the stop sign but… it goes to show that even somewhere that has very few stop signs, people still don't really pay attention to them.
"One car pulled out in front of me impatiently and a second followed close behind and almost hit me in the side..."
-Wowww... Have you ever had them honk their horn, yell/curse at you, "gun" their engines; or leave a ridiculous amount of space between their vehicle(s) and your bike as they pass by? 😓
I Canadian and visited relatives in England and rented a car. I don't remember seeing any stop signs.
"the obligation for trucks to honk when prompted" it's absolutely not a law!
that's a privilege that I believe every trucker loves!
You guys your almost at 3k followers
Yeah! That was a little unexpected, honestly.
Something not mentioned here: it's pretty easy to start moving again from a complete stop in a car, but a lot of work on a bike. I believe NJB has mentioned this at some point saying that cyclists should have stop signs (and I'd add the supporting argument of if there's enough traffic for a bike to need a stop sign, there's probably enough that a traffic light should also be considered)
Yup, Jason did a video about this. And yup, getting back up to speed in a car requires moving one foot 2mm, but getting back up to speed on a bike requires exerting a ton of energy. I doubt Canada will implement the Idaho Stop Law, in fact, it's going in the OPPOSITE direction by making bike-paths (not bike-lanes that are just the road with a bit of paint on the ground, but bike PATHS that are up the cube next to the sidewalk, ONE-WAY! WTAF‽ 🤦)
I most certainly do stop at stop signs as a cyclist. I mostly do this for my own safety, to protect myself from getting hit by inattentive drivers. These are the steps I go through when I approach an intersection (with or without a stop sign): Check the road behind to see if any cars are coming up behind me > stand up on my pedals > slowly come to a stop at the stop sign/the intersection > keep standing on my pedals and balancing myself on the bike > quickly scan all sides of the intersection. If a car approaches the intersection, I step of my bike and let it through and then I go. If there are no cars approaching the intersection or coming up behind me, I can easily and quickly speed up again and cross the intersection. I'm from the Netherlands, so most intersection are quite safe over here, but it's still always a good thing to be careful and watch out for yourself.
Tip: Don't just look at the cars, but look at the driver and where he/she is looking. This way you can check if they've seen you. If they've clearly not seen you, don't be selfish and let them go through first, even if you have right of way. This can save you from a lot of potential accidents. Making eye contact will also make them more likely to take your presence at the intersection into consideration.
We call that a "California Roll" in Michigan.
I don't think anyone should be rolling through stops. That's a really bad idea for anyone in any vehicle.
Stop signs simply signify extremely lazy intersection design.
The amount of stop signs we have in the U.S. and Canada is utterly ridiculous.
The overuse of Stop signs also desensitize people to them causing them to ignore them when they clearly shouldn't. It may actually be more dangerous to have a stop sign then no sign at all exactly because people ignore them so much, if there is a stop sign people just assume it's like the hundreds of other stop signs they come across and which they just roll through, whereas if you didn't have a sign people would more likely look at the actual road to figure out what the safe thing to do is.
It's like how a green light means go and some people just throw out all common sense simply because a light told them they could go. It becomes a case of "why were you in the crosswalk when the light was red" instead of "why should I just drive through the crosswalk while people are illegally crossing it just because a light told me to go".
Why does nobody talk about the 'work required' to accelerate for cyclists and cars? If you come to a complete stop in a car, do you know how much effort it takes to accelerate? Gently push your foot down.
If a cyclist, scooter rider, or skateboarder comes to a stop, it takes them a bunch of work to re-accelerate! For cyclists, they have to pedal hard and lose their breath just to get back to a relatively slow speed that doesn't even compare to a motorist.
This is why motorists should have to yield. Not only are they more dangerous to cyclists, but they have to put in a whole lot less work inside their nice and cushy air-conditioned cars!
if you lose your breath by having to get your bicycle in motion from a standstill, you might need to visit the doctor, and you don't have to pedal hard, you can use your weight.
Part of the double standard may be the ratio of cruising speed. A driver slowing from 45 km/h to 8 km/h at a stop sign looks like they're responding more to the sign than a cyclist slowing from 18 km/h to 8.
But obviously a cyclist going 8 km/h is a lot less dangerous to other road users than a car going 8km/h. (Though as you mentioned, in most cases a car going 8km/h would be fine too and yield signs should be used instead of stop signs).
Bartlesville, Oklahoma, birthplace of Phillips Petroleum, allows bicycles to roll through stop signs if the road is clear.
As a cyclist (in a rural area, thankfully), I don't see people rolling through stops as much as I see them constantly overshooting it. I'll agree that in some places the stop line probably is too far back, but regardless, if your front bumper crosses that line I CAN'T TRUST YOU WITH MY SAFETY.
I Can't stop me - Twice.
In addition to the reasons you give, I also wonder if those rolling stops FEEL like stops because you do actually slow down to ... what ... 10 miles per hour... whereas the "lawless cyclist", going 10 miles per hour, doesn't slow down at all!!
I completely favour the Idaho stop for bicycles, and a more limited variant for cars. I would think most motorists do not want bicyclists to have to stop, dismount, then remount then slowly start crossing the road. Another element that makes it more difficult for cars is that it is very difficult even at slow speeds to ensure that no cars are coming in another direction. The yield idea works better, so long as visibility isn't obscured. I'm also assuming we are primarily talking about three and four way stops, not full stops. Even for a bike you have to look further down the road when only your direction is stopping.
I was so angry when California Governor Newsom did not sign an Idaho stop law and a decriminalizing jaywalking law over his "concern for their safety".
In Calgary it’s a ticket calling a rolling stop. Even got a ticket once myself
The 'Idaho Stop' has been law in Oregon for years. It's called the Stop-As-Yield law. Bicyclists can treat stop signs as yield signs.
there is a stop sign at the end of my quiet street, onto a slightly bigger road. Of course I treat it as a yield sign.
The STOP sign mania in NA is so strange. I live in a small EU town and I am not sure if ther eis actually a stop sign here. Even in a place where visibility is definitely very bad. Somehow people still manage to (nearly) stop if they don't see anything.
I ran a stop sign on an ebike.... 188 dollar traffic citation and a visit to the ER + a nice case of PTSD later and I'd say that stop signs are necessary.
The video isn't advocating for running stop signs (that implies not looking at all). If a cyclist is going to roll through a stop sign, they need to scan the intersection and make sure it's safe to go (and they should follow priority rules if there are other road users at the intersection).
The point of the video is that we often hear drivers criticizing cyclists for not coming to a complete stop at stop signs, and our brief experiment indicates that most drivers also don't come to a complete stop at stop signs, so that should be taken into account when making calculations.
Of course the roundabout is left out of the equation, everyone has to slow down when approaching these. :3
Roundabouts are rare in the US. 🙂
@@yaash4123 My local highway district is planning around 250 in the next 18 years
Wow, Sometimes I don't completely stop at a stop sign, but I have never in my life performed an idaho stop like the car at 3:24, I would consider that running the stop sign, not a rolling stop.
I support more lenient rules for Bicycles, I've always thought it's insane that we don't allow bicycles on our mostly abandoned sidewalks in the US, and instead force them to be on the road with 4 wheeled death machines. Bicycles are pedestrian traffic in my mind, a bicycle and pedestrian collision is many orders of magnitude better than a bicycle and car collision. Dedicated bicycles lanes would alleviate this, however this is a pipe dream in many American cities at the moment.
I stopped cycling on streets after an incident at a stop signed controlled intersection. I had come up to a stop sign on Cumberland st near Ottawa U. I was running late so I slow down and then rolled through. I had assumed that a car would stop at the intersection as it was a four way stop sign. Instead he speed through the intersection and we nearly collided. He then pulled over and berated saying I was in the wrong. At the time I was very shy and very non-confrontational so I stopped riding my bike through intersections. Looking back I know I wasn’t wrong but back then I was a softie and was worried I broke some sort of rule or something. I was very new to biking as a method of commuting so I was nervous to say the least.
(I also like to mention that I always tried to go the speed limit when driving and apparently people don’t like that, like cycling when I drive I alway worried about the rule but following them rigidly is hard.)
This is very disheartening, and such situations are also what make a lasting impression. It reminds me of when I was stopped waiting to turn left, and there was just so much traffic that as a cyclist, I could not go for a while. Well, the taxi-driver behind me got out and started berating me. Now in general I'm kind of wary about taxi-drivers. And about this intersection.
You sound like a hot mess ngl
@@chasedbyvvolves9256 yeah I got issues
You know what I have also noticed about cars at 4-way stops? Sometimes, not frequently but often enough, the car (car #2) right after the car (car #1) that has stopped will proceed to roll right through after car#1 enters the intersection regardless if there are other cars on the cross roads that have reached the intersection before car#2.
Two big problems in North America:
First, stop signs are OFTEN put in places where a yield sign would work just fine. My opinion is traffic engineers default to stop signs so they won't have to evaluate thousands of individual intersections for the best control - erring on the side of caution. Perhaps the city gets a bulk discount on stop signs?
The 2nd is many residential neighborhoods demand unnecessary stop signs from a desire to slow traffic. This is ineffective and results in most people running the superfluous stop signs. Also, the US MUTCD (Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices) does not consider a stop sign to be speed mitigation device.
I can agree with the overuse of Stop signs. I am from Germany. Here Stop signs are only used in intersections where it is required, usually because of bad visibility or dangers that are not apparent for approaching drivers. When I encounter a Stop sign I know I am approaching a particularly dangerous traffic situation. In a place where you have good sight and no other non obvious dangers you would never encounter a stop sign.
In the US there is not really a more effective warning sign than STOP so the overuse of STOP means there is no effective way to communicate to drivers that they REALLY should stop at a particular intersection.
An other bad thing is that the priority road has no sign. That means a car approaching on a priority road can often not see if they are approaching a intersecion with priority or an unregulated intersection. On the flip side if two cars approach an unregulated intersection both might assume to be on a priority road so that both cars don't yield.
When escooter I have much more visibility from a guy in a car! While someone in a car have to stop and look I already seen everything, also most electric scooter are required to kick (push) to engage the motor so after a complete stop so it's like getting engine stall in every stop...
As an Indian, I don't think any of us even notice the stop signs.
If the signal is red, and there's traffic blocking us, then we'll stop. If the signal is red, no traffic police, no camera, there's nothing stopping us going forward.
And if there's no signal, we slow down, look for conflicts, and slowly move forwards.
We are too focussed on looking at other vehicles, so we won't notice stop signs.
And I guess if I actually stopped at a stop sign, my eardrums would tear with all the people behind me honking, and some random abuses thrown at me...
there’s a difference between a rolling stop and just blindly blasting through expecting others to yield to you.
Imagine lorry (or big truck, depending on where you are) drivers demanding that cars are also limited to 90km/h (or similar, depending on where you are). It would be a complete madness if all types of road users had to go by the same rules.
Unfortunately, humans are selfish and wish everyone is limited at least as much as they are, if not more. That is why (many) drivers would like for cyclist to stop at stop signs (and ideally stop riding completely) and why they don't like being overtaken by cyclists in a traffic jam.
It is just "I can't do that, so you shouldn't be allowed to either, even though this rule is designed for me because of my specific properties and it makes no sense to apply it to you".
1:50 We've got the same structures at the north end of the Iron Horse Trail in Waterloo, thought that's where the footage was taken for a moment.
You were right, that clip is indeed from Waterloo.
Some great points here!
solution: get rid of stop signs, add a roundabout wherever you would have a 4-way stop, add a yield sign and traffic calming and whatnot wherever a street meets a road that gets priority
The biggest issue that I have seen is infrastructure. I constantly see cyclists go through red lights if the intersection is free if there is no separated bike lane. But if there is a separated bike lane they wait for the signal
Interesting observation!
People want to divide us into groups. Drivers VS cyclists VS skateboarders VS pedestrians. But it's fun to realize that you are free to break those groups and be a part of all of them. If people complain about you rolling through on your bike then switch over to driving your car or truck and start coming to a full stop at every stop sign and see what happens. Every other car honking at you at ever intersection is what happens. ;D
Excellent video!
Come to Vancouver - motorists here love stopping at stop signs. It's so far beyond reveling in the theater of 'stopping' it's almost a fetish.
As a vancouverite that's not true
Wow! Someone reporting factual information and not their preferred preconception.
There's a difference between slowing, looking and being ready to stop, and just blowing through the intersection. For cyclists, it's the latter that's the problem. At the speed you go on a bike, you can see clearly if it's free to go or if you have to stop.
Thankfully, it's Legal to treat stop signs as a yield for cyclists here in Washington state. Been that way since 2019.
I used to always come to full stop. but then i noticed how much gas that wastes...
In car it's easy to accelerate after. On a bike physics will slap you in the face, because accelerating from a standstill on a bike requires a lot of work, that you have to put in yourself.
This makes it a lot more annoying to be forced to stop. Especially when it's uphill. With adequate speed on a bike, you can usually still see upcomming traffic rather fine, be back at speed in no time and therefore spending less time in the intersection itself, too.
Gotta say, as someone living in Idaho, stop signs only requiring cyclists to yield is pretty nice. It makes it only takes 15 minutes to get to work vie E-scooter, compared to the 12 via car.
I'll eat any ticket I have to if I'm sequenced correctly
Another reason cyclists running a stop sign can stick out more then cars for drivers are the conciseness.
Speaking personally, there is a 25mph T intersection stop sign by my work with low visibility. I’ve had to slam on my break for several drivers that didn’t see me and jumped out in front of me. This is really annoying, but if I had hit them it would just been a low speed collision with just cosmetic damage.
In contrast, twice cyclists have ignored the stop sign and jumped out in front of me. One didn’t even slow for the stop sign getting just feet away from my hood before I could stop. I would have hit him if I had stopped a moment later, but he, notably, did not even slow down even after almost hitting me and zoomed right by going faster then I safely could in my car. This was terrifying because it could have ended in me accidentally killing or seriously injuring him. It really got my heart racing!
To this day I can clearly remember that mans face where I would be hard pressed to remember any driver there.
This is not to dispute any of the arguments in the video, but the coincidences of a car hitting a cyclist are just more severe and are another reason why they may stick out more for drivers.
It also strikes me that the habit of just plastering stop signs everywhere is very detrimental for both drivers and cyclists. Most stop signs could really just be yield signs and thus many people treat all stop signs yeald by habit.
However, some intersections, such as the one I described, really NEED to be stop signs and need to be treated as such by both cars & cyclists. They would get more respect if we defaulted to yeald signs rather then stop signs and only used stop signs when needed. That is what we really should push for together with drivers. It also would signal to cyclists which intersections need extra care.
Everytime I drive, I admit I always do a Saint Louis or Detroit stop, because I don't want to die.
It's funny that this is called the Idaho stop, I didn't know but this is very much law in Boise, Idaho (or was ~2014). I commuted by bicycle there for a few years including as a bike delivery person downtown. At the time we were instructed to yield on stop signs and treat stop lights as stop signs as cyclists. Intersections in Boise were never what gave my any safety scares, it was always roads where a car would turn right in front of me across my painted bike gutter or drivers pulling out of street parking without signaling or looking for other cars/me on my bike.
Great points
Stop signs do not make sense for cars either in most cases. In Europe they are relatively rear comparing to yield.
This is well done. Thank you.
It's true that North America overuses stop signs. In Europe they are way less common.
good video
It's funny that people think of cyclists as non-car drivers in Canada/US. No most of them also drive cars. Especially if you're in a suburb, those cyclists are also licensed drivers if they're 18+ in almost every case.
They're literally treating stop signs the same, only they have a lower top speed.
Its so weird to see commuting cyclists with helmets on...
"Laughs in the Netherlands"