So a multi billion dollar church says it’s important to pay tithing because “it’s what the Lord would’ve wanted” but if I’m in a bad financial situation I’m considered “selfish” ??? Make it make sense!
Funny thing is, the only place in Bible where God is talking about the importance of tithing is in the law of Moses, or when he is talking to people who are under that law covenant. Tithing is not mentioned as a requirement anywhere else in the Bible. And more importantly, Christians are not under the law of Moses because it ended when Jesus gave his life for us (Colossians 2:14). If we were still under the law covenant, we would also be sacrificing animals for our sins.
Thithing is mentioned in Malachi 3 in the Old Testament. That is part of the Bible, the last time I looked. God said bring tithes to my house and prove me if I will not open the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it. That's a promise that God has made. If you want the blessing, his grace, follow his counsel. "Do it!" If you don't want the blessing, that's ok too. I pay tithing. Here's some results. 30 years ago I was at a place where an advanced first aid class was offered to me. I took the class. On the street one night I had to deal with a man who wasn't breathing. He's alive today. Later the class led to a job as a TV/movie medic, a pension and insurance. Now I am old and retired. Last month my wife got a new heart valve. My insurance paid $129,000+. I paid $30. My pension pays the mortgage on a house that has quadrupled, 6 zeros +, in value since I built it. Those are just some of the windows. When God makes you a promise, he keeps his word really well. Christ ended the law of Moses? How foolish can you be? Thou shall take no other God's before me. Honor the Sabbath. Don't take the Lord's name in vain. If you want to walk without his help,...??? You can't fix stupid.
@@melorca1962yea your right . I don’t know what that other guy is talking about. Also tithing was bringing food once a year (I think) and eating the food together like a party . It wasn’t every paycheck kinda thing . Ish .
How scary for the church to basically tell kids that if they don’t police the adults and siblings , then they might be all alone after death! Lexi, that’s the stuff of nightmares to lay on a kid!!!
"Once given or taken OR STOLEN, it (chastity) can never be regained." Hooooooooooooly, what did he say?! I'd heard a lot of these before, but not that one, and maaaaaaaaaan am I riled up now!
@@jberndt88reminds me of when I was a teenager in n the church. A girl who survived trafficking was pressured by her boyfriend. She felt guilty and talked to the bishop. She wasn’t allowed to take the sacrament for two months. At the same time a boy got his girlfriend pregnant and got a private slap on the wrist.
You can certainly tell all this stuff about "it's better to die than loose your chastity" was written by men--men who don't ever really worry about being raped or sexually abused. How dare they sit there in judgment of any woman who has suffered the trauma of rape or sexual abuse! That really makes me extremely angry and just one example of church's misogyny. I didn't need pamphlets to make me feel unworthy (although I seldom felt guilty; I just thought I was just born a horrible person and that there was something very wrong with me, I didn't feel "guilty" because I was just born "wrong") . I was told outright I was unworthy at every turn. Everything I did was "wrong" (dated and married a non-Mormon, was friends with persons of color and homosexuals, asked a lot of "uncomfortable" questions and brought up a lot of "uncomfortable" points--like Jesus probably wasn't a white dude with blond hair and blue eyes--BLASPHEMER!!!!). I'm not sure who was happier when I left--me or the people in the church. I stayed "friends" with some Mormons until they finally figured out I wasn't coming back and that they couldn't "save my soul", then they wanted nothing more to do with me. And frankly, after hearing them say horrible things about my friends (a homosexuals and persons of color--heck I was even friends with some folks who had immigrated to the United States--IMMIGRANTS--Oh my God, save me from the demons!) I didn't really want to be around them any more, either.
I have to take issue with saying that men don't have to worry about rape or sexual abuse. Granted, it affects females more. But it really diminishes and furthers the shame of males who have experienced sexual assault to say that they don't have to worry about it.
@@solsticebaby Agreed and that wasn't very thoughtful of me and I apologize. But my anger at anyone who minimizes the impact of sexual assault and who says it's better to die--whether that victim is male or female still stands.
Worked with a former Mormon member in my time as a social worker. Was kicked out of their house because they came out as gay to their family. The quote that always haunts me is: “It got to the point where I was so unhappy, that I knew that the only way to be happy in the long term, means losing my family”. The youth was living underneath a bridge when I met them. Don’t let the façade of the Mormon front they put up of HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY fool you. It’s all hot garbage that the church promotes for the image of the organization. The SECOND you step out of line in their eyes, you’re walking the tight rope of being an apostate. Which, when one becomes it, it means the Church sees that person as less than the S#$* on the bottom of their shoes.
Not true that has never been taught and is not part of doctrine. You were obviously not listening when you went to church! Try reading and understanding before being critical and wrong in what you say. Whose the false teacher now
@@rickhadfield1097 Read your Book of Mormon. Outside of Scientology, it’s easily the second most obviously man made religion ever created. You’d know that if you looked into your precious false prophet Joesph Smith outside of your indoctrination. But, we all know you won’t. I know the songs they teach you when you’re young to make sure you never look into this kind of thing and blindly plow ahead. “Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, DON’T GO ASTRAY”. “Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, He knows the way”. TOTALLY NOT INDOCTRINATION…….
@@rickhadfield1097 It is absolutely true, and it is definitely part of their doctrine. Ever heard of The Miracle of Forgiveness by prophet Spencer W. Kimball? And there are tons of more examples. You really should study your own church-history before posting such obvious lies.
Great video, this just absolutely boils my blood I am 41 years old and I’ve been out of the church for about four years and I’m just now starting to really grasp the trauma. The church caused in my youth and single adult days. I’m so glad I am not alone in my trauma, but have sympathy for everybody else who is going through the same thing. Wishing everyone out there a speedy recovery, hugs and good vibes.🤗🤗🥰🥰
Great insights. How would anyone know if they were doing enough. After reading The Miracle of Forgiveness, I knew I had no chance of getting any LDS rewards. I was a good kid. Impossible standards are a control mechanism. Oddly, in my final interview with my old Bishop, I shared my concerns about First Vision, Book of Abraham and used a guilt play to avoid the conversation. "Those who question sacred things have something amiss in their lives." Luckily my study of cult tactics caused me to laugh out loud and call him on his manipulative BS. Thanks for educating people.
I see this channel as a very valuable support group that so many of us need! Thank you for your service. Yes, the church makes ppl feel unworthy so that we're motivated to always give more, though it's never enough. They do it because it works!!
Similar teachings in fundie Christianity. I was taught that you should die for god. If someone had a gun to your head and told you they would kill you if you believe in god, you should tell them you do believe and die. Chastity was also absolutely imperative. So much shame around sex.
@@lizart4679 Another good one is "Everything good about Mormonism isn't unique. Everything unique about Mormonism isn't good." Unfortunately, I don't know who came up with this saying first. I've heard it a few places.
@@mylesmarkson1686 I did, eventually. It took the church doing something hurtful to me personally and not just the person next to me. And then I had the realization of how selfish I was beforehand. But that's what got me started thinking.
Wow! What pathetic parents who would choose their church over their own son. I know that I love my son so much that I would die for him. I am not a Mormon.
Just goes to show how Mormonism doesn’t just try to control behavior, but the way people’s brains are wired entirely. As a parent, your children are *supposed* to be the most important thing in your life. You literally have hormones and brain chemicals specifically designed to keep you bonded to your children coursing through your body. To deny someone the basic desire to protect their offspring is, to me at least, evil.
I know I'm breaking the seriousness of this video, but I kept picturing Wayne and garth from wayne's world, kneeling and bowing, and saying "we're not worthy"
I'm not even half way through this video but boy is it bringing back so many memories of when I felt unworthy and sinful. I joined when I was 16 by that point I'd had s3x, was SA and been with another girl I never told anyone because I was so ashamed and felt like if I did they wouldn't let me join because I was too dirty and unworthy. Then when I was 19 I moved in with my boyfriend (domestic abuse) and I was told I could not longer take the sacerment. The shame and unworthiness I felt was so strong. I was being outed as a sinner.
Scott's talk absolutely disgusts me. And worse yet, he reiterated it almost word for word 15 years later. As for Kimballs words well, not many people know this, but my mom was actually friends with his niece when we lived in Michigan. She took us in and offered us a safe place to stay after my dad "stolen" our virtue by abusing us. I wonder if he would've been comfortable telling my 4 year old self and my 10 and 12 year old sisters that our virtue was worth more than our lives?
What's even worse is that some people think For the Strength of Youth should apply to everyone, despite the title clearly saying "Youth". That thing literally tells people to not do steady dates, which makes some sense for teenagers, but for college-age people, that's VERY detrimental.
Scott's talk absolutely disgusts me. And worse yet, he reiterated it almost word for word 15 years later. As for Kimballs words well, not many people know this, but my mom was actually friends with his niece when we lived in Michigan. She took us in and offered us a safe place to stay after my dad "stolen" our virtue by abusing us. I wonder if he would've been comfortable telling my 4 year old self and my 10 and 12 year old sisters that our virtue was worth more than our lives?
Interestingly if you read the gospel accounts on what Jesus said and did, he never guilt-tripped anyone or made them feel like they were not personally doing enough. Hebrews 10:24 talks about inciting to "love and good works", meaning "good works" (or behavior) that stems from love, not guilt.
@@rickhadfield1097I see the LDS church being very much like the Pharisees. Not letting people participate in "eternal blessings" of the temple unless they are full tithe payers... I'm pretty sure Jesus had some strong feelings about money being exchanged for temple ordinances.
Even when I was an active member of the church, I ignored this kind of bs from those who believed they were talking for God. Life, family, freedom trump all the expressions of chastity, tithing, callings, temple, word of wisdom that the leaders spew constantly. It's church first all the damn time ! My sundays and life are far more enjoyable now since I left the real "great and abominable church".
In addition to telling people that it's better to literally DIE than lose your chastity, they also teach young women (as young as 12 years old) that if they lose their chastity before marriage, they are like a 'licked cupcake'. Sometimes the rest is only implied, other times it is spoken plainly... "If you lose your chastity before marriage, you become like a licked cupcake. And no one wants a cupcake someone else has already licked." Not only are you shamed and told you aren't worthy, not only are you told that it would be better for you to literally be DEAD than to have sex before marriage, but your worth as a person is then wittled down to being a perishable piece of food that someone else has licked that is worthy of nothing except to be thrown away and discarded. I first heard the 'licked cupcake' lesson as a convert when I was 20 years old. Even though I had 'repented' of my sins and was worthy to be baptized and all that. It didn't matter. According to them, I was a second-class person who would never be as worthy as someone who had 'waited'. I had a very deep insecurity that no self-respecting priesthood holder would choose to marry me, and if he did, he would be 'settling'. It played a very large role in why I ended up marrying a narcissist who abused me for years until I finally left both him and the church. And just as an added piece of salt in that wound...part of my ex-husband's abuse was sexual. What did the church tell me about sexual abuse? It meant I was even more unworthy, because of course my priesthood wielding husband could do no wrong, so therefore I must be the one who is deficient. I was told that I should 'endure it' to help my husband become a better man and help him get to the Celestial Kingdom. The church literally told me I didn't deserve for the abuse to stop, and that I wasn't taking my responsibilities as a wife seriously because I wanted to leave my husband who regularly raped me. If there is any kind of justice after this life, the church leaders who peddled this very harmful doctrine will have to answer for the untold amounts of pain and suffering they have, directly or indirectly, caused. I'm glad that I left. I just wish the church didn't cause so much pain and suffering, and then gaslight the victims into thinking they are the problem.
This is an interesting one. I think leaders have been sincere in their beliefs about sexual purity, so I think it’s a bridge too far to suggest that guilt and shame are intentionally imposed to manipulate. That said, my teenage experience in the church was characterized by guilt, and it wasn’t until an anonymous survey showed that at least 75% of BYU students viewed pornography that I began to truly heal. I’ve said it before, I don’t find the cult designation to be helpful. Whether people stay or leave, cult behaviors in the church need to be rooted out, because sometimes even the most loving, well-intentioned people can be flat out wrong on their inflexible dogmatic beliefs.
I grew up in the church but both my parents were converts. So my grandparents weren’t members and by adulthood I would call both my parents half hearted Mormons at best plus scandalously they were divorced! My mom worked most of my life in a high tech carrier. I lived in fear of straying because I was the only one who was truly dedicated to the church. I only had one brother I felt like I was as unworthy of a young man with a “good family” as a Jane Austen heroine… aka a young man with pioneer heritage mom and dad married with 5+ kids. I was ashamed of my family I was less worthy of everything because of who I came from. Then to add to the pile I became unworthy myself because when I had been emotionally used beyond my ability to cope I broke down and entered into an intense relationship with a very inappropriate young man who took advantage of my desperate need for love and acceptance I would say no and he kept going it felt to good for me to be firmer I was now damaged goods and forever useless
My sister was a child sexual abuse victim, who converted to the LDS faith (for a boy _and_ to escape the family where the abuse occurred) at 16. She then spent the rest of her life...until dying of cancer at 48...feeling unworthy of God's love. I've never been a member, but as her only sibling, she shared that feeling of unworthiness with me _in those words!_
This title itself hit home for me. What was worse is I was taught in Sunday school that if I felt shame or guilt, it was the Holy Ghost telling me I needed to repent. Especially if I was "hurt" in any way by someone else because that meant I contributed to them sinning.
The law of chastity is the WORST offender of this. It absolves offenders of any and all accountability and puts the onus on the victim to prevent an attack on their body. It's beyond unacceptable to blame the victim for such horrible crimes.
I don't go by the BITE model. If an organization promotes delusions and irrational thinking, it's a cult. And everything you cited falls into the category of irrational delusion.
This teaching of Spencer W. Kimball is vile. If teenagers had sex before a mission there was always an intervention and that book was assigned so sickening
I find it's a double edged sword too. The more hung up people are about certain virtues the more "tempting" it is to break them/ the shadow self pushes back when so much is already suppressed. The shame and guilt of course, reinforces dependency on the church for redemption. I.e. since leaving, I never "take the lords name in vain" because it doesn't mean anything to me, it's also been my experience that I much less often bend the truth or lie in comparison to Mormons or Muslims who take honesty very seriously, at 15 the temptation to consume alcohol started over powering me... it lost it's power when I fully left the church and now I never drink (aside from a small glass of wine at xmas)... It's very speculative but some of us have wondered if Ted Bundy would actually have murdered less had he never encountered the church. He would have still been a serial killer but the pressure (without shame or remorse) seemed to make him worse. 🤷🏼♂️
I don't know about the whole Ted Bundy situation. That dude was so messed up that I think he was going to do what he was going to do no matter what religion he stumbled upon.
@@mylesmarkson1686 Yeah, like I say he'd still have been a serial killer. It's just a thought about the impact of pressure and you're right, it may not have changed anything.
on top of that, there's no nuance involved. if a boy masturbates, then he thinks he's done for, so why not go all out? this can lead to unsafe sexual practices and further psychological damage.
Thank you for these videos. I moved to Utah in '22. I am not affiliated with any church. That doesn't mean I don't believe (some will find that irrelevant). I am wondering if pretty much the majority of Mormons will not want to associate with me in any compacity. True? The more I learn, the more I would classify this religion as a cult. The God of my understanding doesn't believe in shame or guilt to help someone choose a more living path.
They'll still hang out with you, in the right settings. There is an exception to the 'who you affiliate with' rule. Mormons practise "friendshipping". They'll become your "friend" if 'the holy ghost' encourages them to, as a way to bring you into the church. If you take the lessons from their missionaries and seem interested in attending, you'll have lots of mormon "friends" - that doesn't mean that they aren't talking about you behind your back or judging your worthiness and values though. Also, not all averages apply to all people. So on average mormons do xyz, doesn't necessarily mean anything about a specific mormon. My daughter has 3 mormon friends who don't bother her about it but she, as a non-Christian doesn't smoke, drink, or drug... that's really good enough for most of them.
@@MooseCracker Thank you so much for the information. Yeah, I've experienced "friendshipping." I always felt like they were trying to lure me in. Not a fat chance! I respect that it's for them. Not for me, however.
I’m not part of the LDS church but I was raised Catholic and a lot of these themes are the same. It’s crazy how these huge institutions force us to be what they want through shame and guilt to make us ‘worthy’ when the leaders clearly are not. I see a lot of similarities and I sympathize with you and other exmormons. It’s crazy how this is all normalized in religion, learning how you can be worthy by yourself and by your own moral standards can truly set you free. I send love to all exmormons and those currently leaving any church because it is really scary and can be overwhelming. I love all of you guys ❤
Two things: what does "over the pulpit" mean? I hear it all the time and googling it doesn't answer it. Also, do you watch Sister Wives? Meri Brown has finally left her polygamous husband and her new motto and brand is "worthy up" and it makes no sense to us non-mormons. LOL
I have a lived experience of speaking with the first presidency about a known (not LDS) predator on a national level in government. They “declined to get involved” for a motion to expel the predator. The investigations were already done and the person had already admitted acts. It was simply procedure to vote on motions. I always have in my head that they faulted the (female and LDS) victim. Other churches took the opportunity quickly. If I ever faltered on leaving I could remember this one thing and hope it was enough to get myself on track. 😳 💔
So I live in Utah country right now . As an outsider of the LDS church it IS super impressive that the LDS atleast take their faith seriously. Me as a Christian, my people are a joke . And that upsets me to think about lol
Yup but you can also say that North Koreans take their belief in their Leader seriously. Same indoctrination from childhood, and same incite-to-fear belief system. How do you get people to keep buying magic underwear year after year and keep them giving 10% of their income to the church? For a household with $50K yearly income the tithing alone adds up to $5000 per year and $100 000 in 20 years. So the church every so often has talks to remind members of the consequences. If they grew up in the church, they will have the needed emotions attached to those stories. Interestingly LDS promotes quilt while hiding the polygamy, polyamory, and other misdeeds of its first two prophets. Modern mormons might wonder why all the expectations when Joseph Smith's sexual carnival never stopped him from being (supposedly) God's Chosen One.
Impressive.. the amount of damage people experience in this scam started by a conman who ordered fourteen year old girls to marry him under threat of an angel with a sword 🤔
They need to give kids ths option of coming to the bishop if they feel they are developing an addiction to masturbtion and/porn. I've seen a lot of guys saying they wish there was some kind of early intervention available. Not mormons. The problem is the overbearing degree of shame and guilt. It's too much and the kids don't always want to be there. Telling boys they are expected to be missionaries is quite toxic, too. A good percentage of the elders are using the mission as a final verdict on whether they even believe it or not and many feel like they can't tell their parents they aren't interested without exiting the family.
Ummmm..... these are teachings in all churches. In fact i converted to lds because it was the least judgy place i had ever been, I'm from Arkansas and the churches i grew up going to were the ones using the worthy unworthy rhetoric. I went to college in Utah and lasted a year because Utah mormon culture is Bible belt culture in the south. I see a lot of ex Utah mormons that leave with hate for that culture and not actually the church. The gospel according to all faiths is based on worthiness. The judgemental aspects are regional. Put 100 baptists in a room and you'll find out real quick that its just like putting 100 mormons in a room. That's why I'm happy to be a mormon in the Arkansas Missouri region. I have never felt unworthy nor have i been overwhelmed with trying to live up to others expectations. It's taught me to seek personal revelation and make decisions for myself on the music i can listen to (i love metal core which has cussing which is ok because I'm not corrupted by it) i feel the spirit daily but because I'm not trying to satisfy other members, im able to let others do as they please without me judging them. We all have flaws. The gospel is really about being good to each other, not judging each other as worthy or not. If someone is not living "worthy" that's up to them and heavenly Father. A personal relationship with the Father is the only way to know what YOU need to work on to be worthy to enter his presence. Hope my insight brings a little perspective from across the table with my own experience in an alternate culture from what you've grown up around.
Actually, I agree that keeping your virtue can be more important than death. The issue is how you define virtue. If it is akin to honor, than yes, dishonor can be worse than death,
I vehemently disagree. I absolutely felt I was responsible for being sexually assaulted..... and I was six. Decades of guilt and shame because of what the church taught me about chastity.
@@abBensch sorry to hear that you didn't get the proper counseling that you so desperately needed! Victims often make this misplacement, its pretty nearly a natural first response. Of course my comment wasn't poited at you or those in similar circumstances. Both the sinner and the victim very much need the grace of Christ. The power of his atonement can heal. I've felt it, I've experienced it.
Going to post this here in response to some comments being made, hope it clears things up for folks: Tithing In mentioned by Jesus Directly. Mathew 23:23 where he states to do both the “love everyone thing” AND pay tithing. In Mark 12:41-44 he talks about the poor woman who gave her last penny. Notice he did not stop her from doing so? Because tithing is part of the law. So No, it is not something Paul made up. What does it matter what the Church does with the money? It is there actions they are going to have to answer for to God. The old way for tithing was to set it on fire. Would you feel better if we just had a camp fire on Fast Sunday? The “Guilt” you feel has nothing to do with the giving, and everything to do with your own desires.
What does it matter what The Church does with the money? It means everything, and apparently, they've been hoarding it all these years behind all of the members' backs. You bet they will have to answer to God, and so will every gullible member who contributed to this evil.
The church use of the money, is not the member’s Stewardship to answer for. They are following Jesus’s teachings on the Subject. If someone is miss using the funds they would be the one to answer for it, not the giving member. Just as the Lord, and Old Testament teachings on being faithful to the orders of a “master”, it is those in a position of power that answer for the wrong deeds.
@@mylesmarkson1686yeah it’s in the bible and Jesus said, make sure you use your money the faithful have given to build a mall and invest in Victoria secret and not using it to feed and clothe the needy
Your addressing an issue that is no longer applicable. Leadership changes, churches change. The idea of unchanging positions went out with the NT but began again in protestantism. "The Church" can and will continue to change. Erroneous ideas from the past are in all organizations...Academic, Religious, Culture etc. This position has changed and more will follow. However I do value you bringing this change to light.
When the Lord says, "If you pay a tithe to my church, I will bless you a bunch for it", it gets my attention. When the Lord makes a suggestion, it's like when my general made a suggestion. I spent 10 years as. WO. The general didn't need to go further. A promise from my Lord is going to get my attention, it has to do with faith. Try it, you may like it
I don't understand. I'm a member and baptized past year. It sounds like we are pressuring eachother to be better? The leaders want us to be ready for exaltation in the afterlife.
Are you a convert? They’re usually nice to concerts at the start. I would suggest people watching at church. Pay attention to what people are saying about each other.
My life is worth more than my virtue. My value is between my ears not my legs.
That's a good one / statement.
(It actually applies to both genders as well.)
@@Aaron361970thanks.
Pardon the inadvertent pun, but...AMEN!!!
Both can stimulate a male equally.
So a multi billion dollar church says it’s important to pay tithing because “it’s what the Lord would’ve wanted” but if I’m in a bad financial situation I’m considered “selfish” ??? Make it make sense!
Funny thing is, the only place in Bible where God is talking about the importance of tithing is in the law of Moses, or when he is talking to people who are under that law covenant. Tithing is not mentioned as a requirement anywhere else in the Bible.
And more importantly, Christians are not under the law of Moses because it ended when Jesus gave his life for us (Colossians 2:14). If we were still under the law covenant, we would also be sacrificing animals for our sins.
Thithing is mentioned in Malachi 3 in the Old Testament. That is part of the Bible, the last time I looked. God said bring tithes to my house and prove me if I will not open the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing that there will not be room enough to receive it. That's a promise that God has made. If you want the blessing, his grace, follow his counsel. "Do it!" If you don't want the blessing, that's ok too. I pay tithing. Here's some results. 30 years ago I was at a place where an advanced first aid class was offered to me. I took the class. On the street one night I had to deal with a man who wasn't breathing. He's alive today. Later the class led to a job as a TV/movie medic, a pension and insurance. Now I am old and retired. Last month my wife got a new heart valve. My insurance paid $129,000+. I paid $30. My pension pays the mortgage on a house that has quadrupled, 6 zeros +, in value since I built it. Those are just some of the windows. When God makes you a promise, he keeps his word really well. Christ ended the law of Moses? How foolish can you be? Thou shall take no other God's before me. Honor the Sabbath. Don't take the Lord's name in vain. If you want to walk without his help,...??? You can't fix stupid.
You missed the whole point of tithing. Do your homework before you comment. You should actually read the bible
@@melorca1962yea your right . I don’t know what that other guy is talking about.
Also tithing was bringing food once a year (I think) and eating the food together like a party . It wasn’t every paycheck kinda thing . Ish .
@@rickhadfield1097I read your comment and thought, I wanna be a Christian now 😂
How scary for the church to basically tell kids that if they don’t police the adults and siblings , then they might be all alone after death! Lexi, that’s the stuff of nightmares to lay on a kid!!!
Definitely trauma for life ! A fear base cult thinking it can outsmart gen z or keep up with the alphas😅
"Once given or taken OR STOLEN, it (chastity) can never be regained." Hooooooooooooly, what did he say?! I'd heard a lot of these before, but not that one, and maaaaaaaaaan am I riled up now!
@@jberndt88reminds me of when I was a teenager in n the church. A girl who survived trafficking was pressured by her boyfriend. She felt guilty and talked to the bishop. She wasn’t allowed to take the sacrament for two months.
At the same time a boy got his girlfriend pregnant and got a private slap on the wrist.
You can certainly tell all this stuff about "it's better to die than loose your chastity" was written by men--men who don't ever really worry about being raped or sexually abused. How dare they sit there in judgment of any woman who has suffered the trauma of rape or sexual abuse! That really makes me extremely angry and just one example of church's misogyny. I didn't need pamphlets to make me feel unworthy (although I seldom felt guilty; I just thought I was just born a horrible person and that there was something very wrong with me, I didn't feel "guilty" because I was just born "wrong") . I was told outright I was unworthy at every turn. Everything I did was "wrong" (dated and married a non-Mormon, was friends with persons of color and homosexuals, asked a lot of "uncomfortable" questions and brought up a lot of "uncomfortable" points--like Jesus probably wasn't a white dude with blond hair and blue eyes--BLASPHEMER!!!!). I'm not sure who was happier when I left--me or the people in the church. I stayed "friends" with some Mormons until they finally figured out I wasn't coming back and that they couldn't "save my soul", then they wanted nothing more to do with me. And frankly, after hearing them say horrible things about my friends (a homosexuals and persons of color--heck I was even friends with some folks who had immigrated to the United States--IMMIGRANTS--Oh my God, save me from the demons!) I didn't really want to be around them any more, either.
I have to take issue with saying that men don't have to worry about rape or sexual abuse. Granted, it affects females more. But it really diminishes and furthers the shame of males who have experienced sexual assault to say that they don't have to worry about it.
@@solsticebaby Agreed and that wasn't very thoughtful of me and I apologize. But my anger at anyone who minimizes the impact of sexual assault and who says it's better to die--whether that victim is male or female still stands.
@@janhankins911 I agree with you completely. And no worries. Have a blessed evening ❤️ 🙏🏼
Worked with a former Mormon member in my time as a social worker. Was kicked out of their house because they came out as gay to their family. The quote that always haunts me is: “It got to the point where I was so unhappy, that I knew that the only way to be happy in the long term, means losing my family”. The youth was living underneath a bridge when I met them. Don’t let the façade of the Mormon front they put up of HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY fool you. It’s all hot garbage that the church promotes for the image of the organization. The SECOND you step out of line in their eyes, you’re walking the tight rope of being an apostate. Which, when one becomes it, it means the Church sees that person as less than the S#$* on the bottom of their shoes.
Not true that has never been taught and is not part of doctrine. You were obviously not listening when you went to church! Try reading and understanding before being critical and wrong in what you say. Whose the false teacher now
@@rickhadfield1097 Read your Book of Mormon. Outside of Scientology, it’s easily the second most obviously man made religion ever created. You’d know that if you looked into your precious false prophet Joesph Smith outside of your indoctrination. But, we all know you won’t. I know the songs they teach you when you’re young to make sure you never look into this kind of thing and blindly plow ahead.
“Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, DON’T GO ASTRAY”.
“Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, Follow the Prophet, He knows the way”.
TOTALLY NOT INDOCTRINATION…….
@@rickhadfield1097"It's not your doctrine" but it is your culture.
@@rickhadfield1097 It is absolutely true, and it is definitely part of their doctrine. Ever heard of The Miracle of Forgiveness by prophet Spencer W. Kimball? And there are tons of more examples. You really should study your own church-history before posting such obvious lies.
Great video, this just absolutely boils my blood I am 41 years old and I’ve been out of the church for about four years and I’m just now starting to really grasp the trauma. The church caused in my youth and single adult days. I’m so glad I am not alone in my trauma, but have sympathy for everybody else who is going through the same thing. Wishing everyone out there a speedy recovery, hugs and good vibes.🤗🤗🥰🥰
Great insights. How would anyone know if they were doing enough. After reading The Miracle of Forgiveness, I knew I had no chance of getting any LDS rewards. I was a good kid. Impossible standards are a control mechanism. Oddly, in my final interview with my old Bishop, I shared my concerns about First Vision, Book of Abraham and used a guilt play to avoid the conversation. "Those who question sacred things have something amiss in their lives." Luckily my study of cult tactics caused me to laugh out loud and call him on his manipulative BS. Thanks for educating people.
I see this channel as a very valuable support group that so many of us need! Thank you for your service. Yes, the church makes ppl feel unworthy so that we're motivated to always give more, though it's never enough. They do it because it works!!
Similar teachings in fundie Christianity. I was taught that you should die for god. If someone had a gun to your head and told you they would kill you if you believe in god, you should tell them you do believe and die. Chastity was also absolutely imperative. So much shame around sex.
Guilt is the lifeblood of all religions
Gotta convince you you’re sick, so you’ll buy their “cure” 🤷♀️
That was really profound
I had to write it down
@@lizart4679 Another good one is "Everything good about Mormonism isn't unique. Everything unique about Mormonism isn't good." Unfortunately, I don't know who came up with this saying first. I've heard it a few places.
@@unicorntamer2207 Here's my favorite... "You can lead a Mormon to knowledge, but you can't make him think."
@@mylesmarkson1686 I did, eventually. It took the church doing something hurtful to me personally and not just the person next to me. And then I had the realization of how selfish I was beforehand. But that's what got me started thinking.
Wow! What pathetic parents who would choose their church over their own son. I know that I love my son so much that I would die for him. I am not a Mormon.
Thank hell your not!
@@rickhadfield1097You're thanking hell... you're really not afraid to show what Mormonism is all about.
Just goes to show how Mormonism doesn’t just try to control behavior, but the way people’s brains are wired entirely. As a parent, your children are *supposed* to be the most important thing in your life. You literally have hormones and brain chemicals specifically designed to keep you bonded to your children coursing through your body. To deny someone the basic desire to protect their offspring is, to me at least, evil.
Here in SLC UT Kids are nothing more than social -religious -entrapment Pawns !
I know I'm breaking the seriousness of this video, but I kept picturing Wayne and garth from wayne's world, kneeling and bowing, and saying "we're not worthy"
Thank you for covering the BITE model. It's so so relevant to the COJCOLDS.
I'm not even half way through this video but boy is it bringing back so many memories of when I felt unworthy and sinful. I joined when I was 16 by that point I'd had s3x, was SA and been with another girl I never told anyone because I was so ashamed and felt like if I did they wouldn't let me join because I was too dirty and unworthy. Then when I was 19 I moved in with my boyfriend (domestic abuse) and I was told I could not longer take the sacerment. The shame and unworthiness I felt was so strong. I was being outed as a sinner.
Great stuff, Lex. I was always bothered by those Kimball remarks about dying for virtue. Eff that guy.
You should see my comment up above in the comments section
Scott's talk absolutely disgusts me. And worse yet, he reiterated it almost word for word 15 years later. As for Kimballs words well, not many people know this, but my mom was actually friends with his niece when we lived in Michigan. She took us in and offered us a safe place to stay after my dad "stolen" our virtue by abusing us. I wonder if he would've been comfortable telling my 4 year old self and my 10 and 12 year old sisters that our virtue was worth more than our lives?
What's even worse is that some people think For the Strength of Youth should apply to everyone, despite the title clearly saying "Youth". That thing literally tells people to not do steady dates, which makes some sense for teenagers, but for college-age people, that's VERY detrimental.
Scott's talk absolutely disgusts me. And worse yet, he reiterated it almost word for word 15 years later. As for Kimballs words well, not many people know this, but my mom was actually friends with his niece when we lived in Michigan. She took us in and offered us a safe place to stay after my dad "stolen" our virtue by abusing us. I wonder if he would've been comfortable telling my 4 year old self and my 10 and 12 year old sisters that our virtue was worth more than our lives?
Interestingly if you read the gospel accounts on what Jesus said and did, he never guilt-tripped anyone or made them feel like they were not personally doing enough. Hebrews 10:24 talks about inciting to "love and good works", meaning "good works" (or behavior) that stems from love, not guilt.
Re read the messages, obviously you’re missing the whole point. But people see what they want to see!
@@rickhadfield1097I see the LDS church being very much like the Pharisees. Not letting people participate in "eternal blessings" of the temple unless they are full tithe payers... I'm pretty sure Jesus had some strong feelings about money being exchanged for temple ordinances.
Yeah I think it is a cult.
No s*** it’s a cult!
I know ‘beyond a shadow of a doubt’ that the church is a lie.
Even when I was an active member of the church, I ignored this kind of bs from those who believed they were talking for God. Life, family, freedom trump all the expressions of chastity, tithing, callings, temple, word of wisdom that the leaders spew constantly. It's church first all the damn time ! My sundays and life are far more enjoyable now since I left the real "great and abominable church".
In addition to telling people that it's better to literally DIE than lose your chastity, they also teach young women (as young as 12 years old) that if they lose their chastity before marriage, they are like a 'licked cupcake'. Sometimes the rest is only implied, other times it is spoken plainly... "If you lose your chastity before marriage, you become like a licked cupcake. And no one wants a cupcake someone else has already licked."
Not only are you shamed and told you aren't worthy, not only are you told that it would be better for you to literally be DEAD than to have sex before marriage, but your worth as a person is then wittled down to being a perishable piece of food that someone else has licked that is worthy of nothing except to be thrown away and discarded.
I first heard the 'licked cupcake' lesson as a convert when I was 20 years old. Even though I had 'repented' of my sins and was worthy to be baptized and all that. It didn't matter. According to them, I was a second-class person who would never be as worthy as someone who had 'waited'. I had a very deep insecurity that no self-respecting priesthood holder would choose to marry me, and if he did, he would be 'settling'. It played a very large role in why I ended up marrying a narcissist who abused me for years until I finally left both him and the church. And just as an added piece of salt in that wound...part of my ex-husband's abuse was sexual. What did the church tell me about sexual abuse? It meant I was even more unworthy, because of course my priesthood wielding husband could do no wrong, so therefore I must be the one who is deficient. I was told that I should 'endure it' to help my husband become a better man and help him get to the Celestial Kingdom. The church literally told me I didn't deserve for the abuse to stop, and that I wasn't taking my responsibilities as a wife seriously because I wanted to leave my husband who regularly raped me.
If there is any kind of justice after this life, the church leaders who peddled this very harmful doctrine will have to answer for the untold amounts of pain and suffering they have, directly or indirectly, caused. I'm glad that I left. I just wish the church didn't cause so much pain and suffering, and then gaslight the victims into thinking they are the problem.
This is an interesting one. I think leaders have been sincere in their beliefs about sexual purity, so I think it’s a bridge too far to suggest that guilt and shame are intentionally imposed to manipulate. That said, my teenage experience in the church was characterized by guilt, and it wasn’t until an anonymous survey showed that at least 75% of BYU students viewed pornography that I began to truly heal.
I’ve said it before, I don’t find the cult designation to be helpful. Whether people stay or leave, cult behaviors in the church need to be rooted out, because sometimes even the most loving, well-intentioned people can be flat out wrong on their inflexible dogmatic beliefs.
I grew up in the church but both my parents were converts. So my grandparents weren’t members and by adulthood I would call both my parents half hearted Mormons at best plus scandalously they were divorced! My mom worked most of my life in a high tech carrier. I lived in fear of straying because I was the only one who was truly dedicated to the church. I only had one brother I felt like I was as unworthy of a young man with a “good family” as a Jane Austen heroine… aka a young man with pioneer heritage mom and dad married with 5+ kids. I was ashamed of my family I was less worthy of everything because of who I came from. Then to add to the pile I became unworthy myself because when I had been emotionally used beyond my ability to cope I broke down and entered into an intense relationship with a very inappropriate young man who took advantage of my desperate need for love and acceptance I would say no and he kept going it felt to good for me to be firmer I was now damaged goods and forever useless
The chastity parts are one of the worst and vile parts of their doctrine
But WHY is chastity SOOO important? I mean of course you want your children to be ready but this is just...WOW!
the only thing that is important is that all parties give informed consent, and they're responsible with protection.
Control. That's what's important. Control and tithing money.
My sister was a child sexual abuse victim, who converted to the LDS faith (for a boy _and_ to escape the family where the abuse occurred) at 16. She then spent the rest of her life...until dying of cancer at 48...feeling unworthy of God's love. I've never been a member, but as her only sibling, she shared that feeling of unworthiness with me _in those words!_
This title itself hit home for me.
What was worse is I was taught in Sunday school that if I felt shame or guilt, it was the Holy Ghost telling me I needed to repent. Especially if I was "hurt" in any way by someone else because that meant I contributed to them sinning.
The law of chastity is the WORST offender of this. It absolves offenders of any and all accountability and puts the onus on the victim to prevent an attack on their body. It's beyond unacceptable to blame the victim for such horrible crimes.
I don't go by the BITE model. If an organization promotes delusions and irrational thinking, it's a cult. And everything you cited falls into the category of irrational delusion.
❤ love this video series! Thank you for sharing this
Can you imagine someone taking Kimball seriously and fighting to the death during a rape.. would that not be on the church's hands? 🤔
This teaching of Spencer W. Kimball is vile. If teenagers had sex before a mission there was always an intervention and that book was assigned so sickening
So there is no grace?
I find it's a double edged sword too.
The more hung up people are about certain virtues the more "tempting" it is to break them/ the shadow self pushes back when so much is already suppressed.
The shame and guilt of course, reinforces dependency on the church for redemption. I.e. since leaving, I never "take the lords name in vain" because it doesn't mean anything to me, it's also been my experience that I much less often bend the truth or lie in comparison to Mormons or Muslims who take honesty very seriously, at 15 the temptation to consume alcohol started over powering me... it lost it's power when I fully left the church and now I never drink (aside from a small glass of wine at xmas)...
It's very speculative but some of us have wondered if Ted Bundy would actually have murdered less had he never encountered the church. He would have still been a serial killer but the pressure (without shame or remorse) seemed to make him worse.
🤷🏼♂️
I don't know about the whole Ted Bundy situation. That dude was so messed up that I think he was going to do what he was going to do no matter what religion he stumbled upon.
@@mylesmarkson1686 Yeah, like I say he'd still have been a serial killer. It's just a thought about the impact of pressure and you're right, it may not have changed anything.
@@MooseCracker Mormonism sure didn't stop him. Where was God and The Holy Spirit when we needed them?
on top of that, there's no nuance involved. if a boy masturbates, then he thinks he's done for, so why not go all out? this can lead to unsafe sexual practices and further psychological damage.
So sorry for your trauma, and how the church handled it.
LDS Church promotes feelings of guilt and unworthiness? Not me! I was a raised Catholic!!! 😏
Thank you for these videos. I moved to Utah in '22. I am not affiliated with any church. That doesn't mean I don't believe (some will find that irrelevant). I am wondering if pretty much the majority of Mormons will not want to associate with me in any compacity. True?
The more I learn, the more I would classify this religion as a cult. The God of my understanding doesn't believe in shame or guilt to help someone choose a more living path.
They'll still hang out with you, in the right settings. There is an exception to the 'who you affiliate with' rule. Mormons practise "friendshipping". They'll become your "friend" if 'the holy ghost' encourages them to, as a way to bring you into the church. If you take the lessons from their missionaries and seem interested in attending, you'll have lots of mormon "friends" - that doesn't mean that they aren't talking about you behind your back or judging your worthiness and values though.
Also, not all averages apply to all people. So on average mormons do xyz, doesn't necessarily mean anything about a specific mormon. My daughter has 3 mormon friends who don't bother her about it but she, as a non-Christian doesn't smoke, drink, or drug... that's really good enough for most of them.
@@MooseCracker Thank you so much for the information. Yeah, I've experienced "friendshipping." I always felt like they were trying to lure me in. Not a fat chance! I respect that it's for them. Not for me, however.
I’m not part of the LDS church but I was raised Catholic and a lot of these themes are the same. It’s crazy how these huge institutions force us to be what they want through shame and guilt to make us ‘worthy’ when the leaders clearly are not. I see a lot of similarities and I sympathize with you and other exmormons. It’s crazy how this is all normalized in religion, learning how you can be worthy by yourself and by your own moral standards can truly set you free. I send love to all exmormons and those currently leaving any church because it is really scary and can be overwhelming. I love all of you guys ❤
Two things: what does "over the pulpit" mean? I hear it all the time and googling it doesn't answer it. Also, do you watch Sister Wives? Meri Brown has finally left her polygamous husband and her new motto and brand is "worthy up" and it makes no sense to us non-mormons. LOL
This one hit very close to home.
Selling a girls virtue? You forgot to mention?
“Worthy” comes from “worth”. You don’t have enough “value” as a person to attend a loved one’s wedding. You’re not worth enough to participate.
I'm an ex Mormon now my self
Way to go Willy!
First of all I’m just g
So I clicked on your video and immediately got a lds add lmao
You're worthy.
I’m so sorry for how they made you feel.
The reason to leave cults!
only for females...
What?
it's female virtue they are talking about, never ever males.@@abbywolf9701
nice Saint Peter cross
✝
I have a lived experience of speaking with the first presidency about a known (not LDS) predator on a national level in government. They “declined to get involved” for a motion to expel the predator. The investigations were already done and the person had already admitted acts. It was simply procedure to vote on motions. I always have in my head that they faulted the (female and LDS) victim. Other churches took the opportunity quickly. If I ever faltered on leaving I could remember this one thing and hope it was enough to get myself on track. 😳 💔
I’ve been out for 44 years so that be puts in during SWK’s reign . A time obsessed with sexual “sin “ liking back it was simply sick
1000%. Great content, as always, Lexi
Another excellent presentation. Well done.
Howcome we don't have the intro music anymore? I like it 😢❤
It was copyrighted. Lexi was more than willing to give them free advertising, and apparently they said "No thanks!"
"virtue"
So I live in Utah country right now .
As an outsider of the LDS church it IS super impressive that the LDS atleast take their faith seriously.
Me as a Christian, my people are a joke . And that upsets me to think about lol
Yup but you can also say that North Koreans take their belief in their Leader seriously. Same indoctrination from childhood, and same incite-to-fear belief system.
How do you get people to keep buying magic underwear year after year and keep them giving 10% of their income to the church? For a household with $50K yearly income the tithing alone adds up to $5000 per year and $100 000 in 20 years. So the church every so often has talks to remind members of the consequences. If they grew up in the church, they will have the needed emotions attached to those stories.
Interestingly LDS promotes quilt while hiding the polygamy, polyamory, and other misdeeds of its first two prophets. Modern mormons might wonder why all the expectations when Joseph Smith's sexual carnival never stopped him from being (supposedly) God's Chosen One.
Impressive.. the amount of damage people experience in this scam started by a conman who ordered fourteen year old girls to marry him under threat of an angel with a sword 🤔
They need to give kids ths option of coming to the bishop if they feel they are developing an addiction to masturbtion and/porn. I've seen a lot of guys saying they wish there was some kind of early intervention available. Not mormons. The problem is the overbearing degree of shame and guilt. It's too much and the kids don't always want to be there. Telling boys they are expected to be missionaries is quite toxic, too. A good percentage of the elders are using the mission as a final verdict on whether they even believe it or not and many feel like they can't tell their parents they aren't interested without exiting the family.
Ummmm..... these are teachings in all churches. In fact i converted to lds because it was the least judgy place i had ever been, I'm from Arkansas and the churches i grew up going to were the ones using the worthy unworthy rhetoric. I went to college in Utah and lasted a year because Utah mormon culture is Bible belt culture in the south. I see a lot of ex Utah mormons that leave with hate for that culture and not actually the church. The gospel according to all faiths is based on worthiness. The judgemental aspects are regional. Put 100 baptists in a room and you'll find out real quick that its just like putting 100 mormons in a room. That's why I'm happy to be a mormon in the Arkansas Missouri region. I have never felt unworthy nor have i been overwhelmed with trying to live up to others expectations. It's taught me to seek personal revelation and make decisions for myself on the music i can listen to (i love metal core which has cussing which is ok because I'm not corrupted by it) i feel the spirit daily but because I'm not trying to satisfy other members, im able to let others do as they please without me judging them. We all have flaws. The gospel is really about being good to each other, not judging each other as worthy or not. If someone is not living "worthy" that's up to them and heavenly Father. A personal relationship with the Father is the only way to know what YOU need to work on to be worthy to enter his presence. Hope my insight brings a little perspective from across the table with my own experience in an alternate culture from what you've grown up around.
Actually, I agree that keeping your virtue can be more important than death. The issue is how you define virtue. If it is akin to honor, than yes, dishonor can be worse than death,
The lord said in the bible if we pay a 10th thithing He will bless us and He does and the church also will help
you can't be put on a guilt trip if you aren't guilty
yes, you can. people make others feel guilty for things they shouldn't all the time.
I vehemently disagree. I absolutely felt I was responsible for being sexually assaulted..... and I was six. Decades of guilt and shame because of what the church taught me about chastity.
@@abBensch sorry to hear that you didn't get the proper counseling that you so desperately needed!
Victims often make this misplacement, its pretty nearly a natural first response.
Of course my comment wasn't poited at you or those in similar circumstances.
Both the sinner and the victim very much need the grace of Christ. The power of his atonement can heal. I've felt it, I've experienced it.
Going to post this here in response to some comments being made, hope it clears things up for folks:
Tithing In mentioned by Jesus Directly. Mathew 23:23 where he states to do both the “love everyone thing” AND pay tithing.
In Mark 12:41-44 he talks about the poor woman who gave her last penny. Notice he did not stop her from doing so? Because tithing is part of the law.
So No, it is not something Paul made up.
What does it matter what the Church does with the money? It is there actions they are going to have to answer for to God. The old way for tithing was to set it on fire. Would you feel better if we just had a camp fire on Fast Sunday?
The “Guilt” you feel has nothing to do with the giving, and everything to do with your own desires.
What does it matter what The Church does with the money? It means everything, and apparently, they've been hoarding it all these years behind all of the members' backs. You bet they will have to answer to God, and so will every gullible member who contributed to this evil.
The church use of the money, is not the member’s Stewardship to answer for. They are following Jesus’s teachings on the Subject. If someone is miss using the funds they would be the one to answer for it, not the giving member. Just as the Lord, and Old Testament teachings on being faithful to the orders of a “master”, it is those in a position of power that answer for the wrong deeds.
@@Freerangemormon Oh, so Jesus taught them to "hoard thy wealth and lie to thy members"? I missed that scripture.
@@mylesmarkson1686yeah it’s in the bible and Jesus said, make sure you use your money the faithful have given to build a mall and invest in Victoria secret and not using it to feed and clothe the needy
@@mylesmarkson1686 Jesus never mentioned what the Synagogues do with money, because he understands the concept of stewardship.
The church does not say those awful things your saying and people are silly to believe it
Your addressing an issue that is no longer applicable. Leadership changes, churches change. The idea of unchanging positions went out with the NT but began again in protestantism. "The Church" can and will continue to change. Erroneous ideas from the past are in all organizations...Academic, Religious, Culture etc. This position has changed and more will follow. However I do value you bringing this change to light.
When the Lord says, "If you pay a tithe to my church, I will bless you a bunch for it", it gets my attention. When the Lord makes a suggestion, it's like when my general made a suggestion. I spent 10 years as. WO. The general didn't need to go further. A promise from my Lord is going to get my attention, it has to do with faith. Try it, you may like it
I don't understand. I'm a member and baptized past year. It sounds like we are pressuring eachother to be better? The leaders want us to be ready for exaltation in the afterlife.
Mormons are the friendliest UNFRIENDLY people you will ever meet and be around!
Are you a convert? They’re usually nice to concerts at the start.
I would suggest people watching at church. Pay attention to what people are saying about each other.
It's a cult dude, get out and be free/happy
@@PoorStargazer it's not anymore a cult than other religions
@@mommyofkittens4809 what do you mean by pay attention