ATC REPRIMANDS PILOT FOR NOT BEING PREPARED at San Carlos SQL
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- Опубліковано 20 кві 2023
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Audio source: www.liveatc.net/
Good briefing in the office is important... When you have an official site to look up for official documentation.
The included procedures map on video was taken from an unofficial website. I was unable to find any official VFR departure procedures.
He should meet up with that clueless Cirrus guy trying to leave KOWD a year or so ago... N57DB....
Agree that a good briefing is important, but the "5 guys in the cafe" are not typically part of a pilot's briefing.
Not really - the LEAST this tower could do would be put something on ATIS *AND* put something in AF/D / foreflight referencing some kind of VFR noise abatement procedure. Google for random crap is not how you get "published" information.
@@scul00
This audio leads one to the conclusion that the pilot was not interested in a briefing …
Gotta side with the pilot here. ATC cannot scold someone for not being familiar with a voluntary noise abatement procedure. I just did a full briefing as if I was departing San Carlos and in no place is it referenced that you must use those departures. That pilot was using what you would use at any other airport when departing VFR. If atc was really that keen on him using the noise abatement dep procedures they could have easily pointed that out specifically. The guy spent 8 minutes looking at his chart not understanding what atc wanted cause of course it isn’t there. Much nicer if they would’ve said please look up the noise abatement procedures on the airport website. It’s very annoying how controllers at local airports expect you to know all the nuances that are basically local knowledge and are not published by the faa or any other regulation.
True story: I once failed my instrument checkride because I failed to consult the never ending wisdom of the five guys at the cafe before I met with my DPE
l m f a o
Obviously you forgot to bring him donuts to the check ride!😂
I knew I was in trouble when my DPE showed up In a Bentley, you were getting
Two check rides to support his lifestyle’😂
“Local knowledge”
We recently had a guy in his mid 50s wreck the warrior he was using on his checkride as he was landing to pick up his DPE. The poor guy quit after that.
Yeah this needs to stop. Either publish these VFR procedures on the back of the chart (like they did for BFI recently), or the pilot can say "unfamiliar" and the controller will tell them what to do. There is no way a pilot must be obliged to go Google random VFR procedures "published" on some municipality's web site. There's no way to even know they exist. This is stupid.
I agree. At my home airport for flight training, IWA, you can request different departures that the flight schools have agreed upon w/ ATC. But u cannot find them anywhere but the flight school’s materials. It seems unreasonable to dig for such information when the controller can easily tell the pilot what to do.
Ooh, this raises a whole new dimension to this painful-all-round exchange!
Oh so it’s not published then lol. We have a few airports like this around me that “publish” VFR instructions on their website where most pilots won’t find it.
@@Alex-us2vw I thought the controller said it was published…… by the 5 guys at the coffee shop
There are no published VFR departure procedures for KSQL according to the FAA. If its not referenced in the A/FD, then it is not published by the FAA. There is however Voluntary noise abatement procedures published by the City of San Mateo. Apparently, the noise abatement procedures are what the tower controller was rudely referring to. That is not the same, and those procedures are not regulatory.
I was just saying the same thing. I looked at all the official published charts for the airport and saw NOTHING in regards to a published VFR departure route.
Exactly. If this guy pulled that shit with me there's no way I would sit there and take it. For the amount of bitching and whining he did he could have just given him a heading or simple instructions to follow and gotten on with his day. Not sure if it's a training or resourcing issues but I'm running into way more ATC's with attitude than ever before lately.
@@Neeeeeeeko SQL native here. The tower is severely understaffed at the moment with only 3 controllers total for the entire day. Meaning that one controller would be manning both frequencies for 8+ hours a day and they rotate. They’re a contract tower and they’ve been providing terrible service for years now so we’ve been pushing to get it run by the FAA
@@Neeeeeeeko lol atc’s with attitudes really get on my nerves, they think they know everything and most of the times they are wrong.
@@skr1196 it’s not even that they think they know everything as much as the fact they seem to forget the fact that their whole job is to work with pilots to prevent us running into other planes or terrain. When they start acting as though it’s us vs them to the detriment of safe flight it really annoys the shit out of me. Simply giving a pilot attitude in a high stress environment is enough to contribute to a crash. Don’t get me wrong 99% are awesome at their job but when you run into a clown it can ruin your day in a hurry
As a controller, something I strive for is to never end up in one of these videos.
End up in a video but in a good way! :D
I'm going to bait you into it! Lol
@@A.J.1656 You and me both.
good point actually. Meanwhile as a pilot, I am striving for never ending up on the evening news :)
@@rnzoli
I actually brief that. Lol
So apparently we have to just google stuff now? C'mon. Pilot didn't sound extremely confident but asking the boys inside or googling the city are not part of require preflight preparations.
If's it's complicated route or airport, I find people to pick their brain as part of my pre-flight.
Throughout flight school I was seriously discouraged from googling anything because that's how you get outdated/unofficial charts and bad info. Of course, I know it's not that simple and that google can be useful, but certainly not when looking up departure procedures.
I was most impressed by the pilot’s ability to stay calm with A(hole)TC.
Pilot should have given ATC a number to call for possible atc deviation
I would never fly VFR underneath crazy Bravo shelf puzzles like that; IFR is much easier and safer.
@@svenf1 Okay except he may not have been instrument rated
Ahh that's the Dan Gryder method @@phantomf41
@@morerightrudder9742 Yeah I agree he probably wasn't instrument rated but in my opinion, all pilots should be IFR certified for safety.
The 5 guys in the café departure procedure, it’s published on a poster in the restroom. How did he not know about it!
Gimme a break, why can’t ATC just give him a departure heading. It’s not his fault they have some BS procedures up there. Just give him the damn heading. ATC being a clown.
I consulted the random five wise men at my local airport cafe... I can now fly an A380. One was a janitor and the other four play Microsoft Flight Simulator 18hrs a day
Fly an A380 *and* wield a mop!!! You have skills man!
@@virginiaviola5097 Ensuring cleanliness while aviating the beast, just like God intended.
yeah I'm not buying that. Unless they play it in the cafe. No way they have time for sleep and 18 hours of MSFS. Just admit it was only a 747 and stop trying to show off
I like the pilot. Screwed up a bit but didn't let that fluster him or otherwise compound the mistakes. Controller was a bit flustered but eventually recovered.
Those controllers have a pretty busy workload. Back in the 80s my friend came out of Oklahoma city as a brand new controller. Was put in sql as well as Palo Alto. Basically being thrown into the fire! 😂
The pilot was a good sport. Hopefully, other pilots learn from this one when dealing with an ATC controller who may, even if rare, not be in the right.
Clearly that controller picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines
Yes.
A good sniff of glue might have eased his nerves as well
I'm dying here.... 👍
LOL
I like you, guy👍
Bingo!
What am I missing? He wants to fly out of SQL to Bakersfield via VFR, right? Tell him what runway to take off on, turn him in the general direction of his destination, and go on with your day.
The controller is totally over complicating this.
I wonder why, not.
@@HypePerformanceGroup San Carlos has extremely strict departure procedures for VFR aircraft. There are no left downwinds or right crosswind departures. This is all because of airspace that congests the airspace into one heap of a mess with SFO to the North, OAK to the East, and PAO to the Southeast. If you fly out of this airport, you should be briefed on what these departures are
@@ethanfletcher91 there's the real answer, thank you
@@ethanfletcher91 they aren’t official and therefore not published despite what the controller keeps saying.
@@ethanfletcher91 this exactly. San Carlos' airspace is not for the feint of heart.
I want to make this very clear. The procedures they are referring to are unpublished and on their website state are unofficial source of navigation. If ATC tells me to fly this unofficial procedure, and I screw up, the FAA will ask why did I fly an unofficial procedure. The intent is good to bring better situational awareness, however some of the “landmarks” are not even listed on the vfr chart. In this case, I would say mark the tapes and let’s have a friendly chat about official procedures versus voluntary unofficial procedures. I do also mean friendly, forcing a takeoff like this when either yourself or the controller is upset is just asking for issues. My saying would be, “I am sorry I am unfamiliar with the area to follow the unofficial procedures and in the interest of safety cannot do it.” The key phrase is always use interest of safety. At this point I would expect Rwy 30 cleared for takeoff fly at or below 2,000ft make a right turn out and depart via the down wind leg or right turn out on course. Yes I have to watch the shelf, cause a couple low spots, however I should know how to navigate safely around it.
Most sensible comment
I really don’t understand how someone can just get into an aircraft, not submit a flight plan and ask ATC how to get out of there.
That’s not the ATCs job.
That’s the job of the pilot in command.
You need to learn the airspace you’re flying out of and at least look up the airport directories and the correct charts.
Otherwise, if something goes wrong, it’s added workload and it’s just unsafe for everyone.
Prior preparation prevents piss poor performance.
@@mtadc1545 Ever fly into Class D?
@@mtadc1545 Because most of us don't need to ask ATC for anything other than a clearance to takeoff or on the way in to enter their airspace and to land. VFR flying doesn't require any more than this and in most cases at an uncontrolled airport for example there is no one to ask permission and no permission required. Your comment has no relation to this story. The pilot was prepared, did know the airspace, and was under no obligation to know or follow unofficial procedures published on a city web site. We follow FAA procedures which are verified and published by the FAA. Putting yourself in the pilot's place how would you be prepared to fly a procedure that isn't published anywhere from the FAA and isn't even mentioned on ATIS? The answer is you wouldn't until the next time. That's not how things work.
So why is the controller talking about "published" VFR departures ?
Exasperated ATC: "these are published"... Right, but they aren't. That's the issue with these stupid custom/complex/obscure VFR procs. These do not appear in any in standard pilot information sources, until you go to the airport website itself (which nobody does unless they know ahead of time they need to), and then they are placed under a random PDF called "noise abatement procs".
We have the same issue in Seattle with KBFI and KRNT. People show up from out of town trying to sneak out under the bravo and then tower abuses them that they don't have the super-secret-sauce-departure. Well, yeah, very few other airports do this stuff so nobody expects it and there are no obvious places where they will be noticed from a pilot doing a routine briefing. I know tower tries their best and works with these people, and the procs have a reason to exist, but I think it bothers me when tower gets so frustrated and calls people out for not noticing information which isn't in anyone's routine preflight planning routine. Just silliness.
That said, it does sound like the pilot is behind the airplane here. Terrible radio work, but that is a separate issue from not finding the super secret departure password.
Yeah they eventually published the ones for KBFI, but not for RNT. When I was doing my private at KBFI my instructor had to fly all of them with me just to show me, and then I couldn't find them anywhere except on some random memory card website saved by some girl who was in a similar situation a couple of years prior. I emailed her and asked how she gathered that information, she said she just talked to a bunch of CFIs at a local flight school. At the time, those procedures weren't even on the airport's website, and airspace around KBFI is some of the busiest airspace in the world. Now this controller has the nerve to tell the pilot they are published. Are you kidding me.
I guess they must be published somewhere otherwise nobody would know, but if they're like the planning applications for the destruction of the earth, there's no point in saying they're published, lol.
Agreed. I fly out of KRNT and the KBFI/KRNT Delta under KSEA Bravo is a “you only know if you already know” kinda airspace. I imported the VFR procedures into ForeFlight so I always have them on hand.
And if I fly in any new busy airports I always try to search for unpublished procedures or ask someone at the field. But I don’t believe it should be that way. There should be a way for airports to publish them with the FAA.
Chris very well said. I am honestly shocked that there are a bunch of pilots who think the pilot was at fault here. this whole nonpublished stuff treated as important and published is ridiculous.
Why is everyone acting like this pilot is incompetent? I've flown VFR out of Class D airports many times and not once have I ever had to tell the tower which "procedure" I wanted to use. I get that this airport is unique but the procedures are not "published" (officially) nor are they regulatory. It's a remark in the AFD saying contact the airport manager for the noise abatement procedures. Once you find them they are "voluntary." The guy is hardly incompetent and did not deserve what he got from that controller. Too many controllers think that "normal" = "required."
I fly in and out of that airspace all the time. I instruct in that airspace. The pilot clearly did not check all his resources to depart out of the airport efficiently and safely. The pilot does not get a pass from me. The procedures are simple, and then when he was told to go back and study the procedures, he still didn't get it right.
That area is not an area to play around in.
They got me with this same exact scenario, I saw no published departures. Got yelled at, then I found some, but they don't have clear directions like published departure procedures. I did the wood side departure so i turned right around the diamond waterway and then IN THE AIR, they told me to turn east bound after intercepting a radial of the woodside VOR. Totally stupid and dangerous to have me finding a VOR frequency while in the pattern. They could have at least told this pilot to google KSQL vfr noise abatement procedures to steer him in the right direction. Poor guy probably thought his charts subscription was out of date.
@@jarrettleto Foreflight does have the procedures.
I would’ve done the exact same based on my FAA guided preflight planning. I look for explicitly published procedures, NOTAMs, etc. not local nomenclature on some facebook or apt website.
Whether your plan is to follow a published route or not, you should have a plan, surely? Expecting the tower to give you vectors isn't much of a plan.
To call it a 'departure procedure' is disingenuous. Just tell the controller you are declining any 'voluntary' procedures and will be VFR to the East 😇
Perfect! Would have avoided all the initial drama!
You are still required to adhere to published VFR departures routings. This is not the far west here where you do as it pleases you.
@@12345fowlerThat’s the thing, though. This wasn’t a published vfr departure procedure according the other comments.
@@12345fowler -
I don’t know how to make this any more clear; what the pilot wanted to do - depart the Delta, remain below the Bravo, and fly to KBFL VFR in class Delta does not need a release, a transition or nor other such nonsense made up by SQL controllers at that class D airspace - the requirement is to establish and maintain two-way radio comms while inside the Delta (AIM 3−2−5. Class D Airspace, FAR part 135.161 Communication and navigation equipment for aircraft operations under VFR over routes navigated by pilotage), and follow any FAA published Departure Procedures. As the pilot was most likely a ‘part 91’ pilot, there is a very specific section governing departures from class D airports - 91.129 Operations in Class D Airspace. Section (g) (1) makes it even MORE clear that the ONLY AUTHORIZED Departure Procedures are those published by the FAA.
In this case, the Official, FAA published Departure procedures for KSQL are:
DEPARTURE PROCEDURE:
Rwy 12, climb on heading 123° to 500, then climbing left turn direct SJC VOR/DME before proceeding on course.
Rwy 30, climb on heading 303° to 600, then climbing right turn direct SJC VOR/DME before proceeding on course
That’s it. Deviation from this requires special authorization - or vectors (which is what the pilot asked for…) The controller cannot reference and require the pilot to ‘look up a website for a ‘suggested, unofficial departure’.
You are correct, in one aspect - this isn’t the Wild West. But that ALSO applies to ATC.
@@12345fowlerthis is about as far west as it gets 😉
KSQL is a non FAA tower. I fly in there all the time. The controllers are very hot and cold. Some are great and are familiar with my N number. Some suck and seem to go out of there way to make things difficult. Been flying out of KSQL since 1971.
The controller was clearly being a dick. Those departures routes are not government published, pilot made it clear he is not from that area,and he indicated at least twice he was looking for the most direct route to Bakersfield. For a visiting pilot (which isn't that one of the points of flying), a little grace goes a long way to making the whole exchange beneficial to both parties.
The controller was not being a dick. He was making sure this kind of lack of planning didn’t happen with regularity.
@@georgeglass1748 "I expect more from a twin Cessna". Asshole comment and unnecessary that added nothing to helping him. His job is to help not make snarky bitchy comments.
@@georgeglass1748 In a pretty cocky way...
@@georgeglass1748 He was indeed being a total jerk. As other comments point out, these are not published VFR departures as the controller seemed to suggest, but rather *voluntary* noise abatement procedures that are not published in any official FAA resource.
Didnt take long for the incompetent pilot to out themselves
In the pilot defense, there is nothing in the sectional or chart supplement stating that there is a published VFR departure. I was able to find the routes under the comment>Remarks section of foreflight, which is something that not everyone checks as part of preflight planning. Looking for vfr depatures is also not something required under 91.103.
If you found it, he should’ve found it. Even more so if he’s unfamiliar with the facility.
@@cmurphy3748 Lol like i said this is something noone looks at. The FAA should make a note under the chart supplement advising pilots to look up these departures. That is the only way for things like this to be avoided. He is not the first one to deal with this situation go on google alot of other pilots have dealt with the same situation.
Ground was an ass.
@@mafp22w 💯
@@xsnow5005 Categorically false. I damn well do. Coworkers of mine certainly do. Especially in the congested Silicon Valley airspace where if you’re not violating airspace, you’re about to.
And btw, “This is something noone looks at” is a slippery slope strategy. Complacency and such…
"Sir, did you not pick up your complementary airport colored trail chart at the giftshop before leaving? Usually the five ol' boys at the cafe hand them out".
This diagram should really be in the AF/D or TPP if it’s that serious. 0:58
I would 100% have been in the same boat. I would have filed a complaint when I landed and realized the controller was full of crap.
Hope you brought your sharpie to write it on the bathroom wall, becuase that's all tower is prepared to accept 😃
Wtf? If it's not officially published there's no legal requirement to comply with these unofficial procedures.
Simple fix: Publish them with the FAA if you want pilots to adhere to these noise abatement arrival and departure procedures, make them a required chart supplement for VFR traffic on the sectional.
Just go ahead and don’t avail yourself to really easy information when departing, I’m just saying you’ll have a less then desirable experience. The departure procedures are pretty easy to understand by the way.
@@TheAlaska07 They are easy to understand, but difficult to obtain and, in turn, difficult to enforce because you won't find them in official publications pertaining to SQL. *That's the issue.*
@@CreepinCreeper145 I doubt it’s enforceable it’s just something to keep everything going smoothly.
@@TheAlaska07 then it should be available in official sources too and not just a damn website. put it in the A/FD.
Yea I kind of get it though since the tower is so used to only using the NADPs. They are trying to officially publish them and have been for a while now but idk what's going on behind the scenes so I couldn't tell you why it isn't already in effect.
As a controller myself, the last thing I want to do is cause MORE work for myself. I hear it time and time again in these videos. 4 minutes and 47 seconds could have turned into a minute tops. Could’ve just helped the guy out, maybe explained it at some point during the whole situation(respectfully) and moved on with my day. If this guy got paid by the word he’d be a millionaire.
What type of oversight exists for controllers that lose their temper like this?
Seconding Jamie's question. I'm not a pilot. Can pilots file complains on ATC?
@Paul S Rohrbaugh caught your comment while I had a minute. So I did some research. Looks like this would be the avenue a pilot would take:
www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/aae/programs_services/faa_hotlines
@Paul S Rohrbaugh also, if I'm not overstepping my understanding, you or I could also file a report just from seeing this video and having concern...
Yes, from my understanding, since the airspace was not overly busy, a more positive and informing dialogue could have helped the situation. True, the pilot should have been more prepared, but the controller could have told him 1 option rather than throwing a bunch of possible ways to fly out.
ATC completely out of line here. He isn’t flying a DP or anything. I didn’t feel like the pilot was being unreasonable in the least. I would have responded the same way. I was only able to find these so called “departures” in the comments section of foreflight which tbh I’ve never even looked at until I saw this video. Also the way ATC continues to engage him and belittle him (the comment about expecting more from a twin) is totally unacceptable. The pilot handled this rude controller with class.
“I would expect more from a busy class D controller”
From the comments I've been seeing... maybe the name of the video should be ATC REPRIMANDS PILOT FOR NOT HAVING NON-EXISTENT PREPARATION 🙂
Literally says “voluntary noise abatement procedures.” It’s not published anywhere in an FAA publication.
If that GND guy gave me that kind of attitude I would ask him for a phone number and the name of his supervisor. It's a tiny class D, not LAX. If it's not in the chart supplement then it's not published, and he should provide the info when requested.
Pilot is a bit weak as well, he didn't even report ATIS info.
Try finding the departure procedures the ATC was talking about. Not always easy to find, not standardized, and even harder if you don't know they exist. Not in Notams, not on KSFO Terminal Area Chart,not in the airport/flight directory, not on AirNav and I'm not aware of any VFR approach and departure plates nor are there any IFR SIDs for that airport. It can be found in the comment section on paid subscription plan Foreflight.
"This is complicated airspace!" aka "I'm important!"
I am not familiar with KSQL but "published VFR departure procedures" are not a thing. I can totally request a VFR departure to go fly random circles in the sky and as long as I comply with the FARs outside of tower's airspace i don't have to declare any intentions. Local towers sound like they are exceeding their authority here.
I'm on the pilot's side with this one. There is nothing readily published on these procedures besides going to the airport's website which is usually not a step in flight planning. However, with that being said, California is different than the rest of the country and the pilot could have tried to do more research when flying out of these airports underneath the Bravo airspace
I'm based near San Carlos, and I haven't met a single pilot in the area that likes the San Carlos tower controllers. Some blame it on them being contract tower operators, other on the culture at that airport, but every interaction I've had with them is similar to this. It always seems like an inconvenience to that tower when they have to deal with airplanes. I flew my instrument long cross country out of there during training and the one operator likes to talk as fast as humanly possible on the radio. Even after stating I was a student and asking him to repeat the clearance he read it back again as fast as possible. They're not interested in helping pilots be safe, they're interested in being the kings of their domain.
Thanks for the back story.
They are going to kill somebody then. I guess if that closes the airport for the day they won’t be bothered by any pesky planes landing or departing. Oh well, now he is VAS famous. Maybe that’s been the intention all along. If you won’t be remembered for being great at your job, gain notoriety and internet immortality for being awful at it.
They went corporate.
Is "pilots in the cafe" an official source? 😅
only if they are drunk
The "Mandatory" Voluntary procedure, on a non FAA website. Another California stroke of brilliance.
Someone give the ground controller a Snickers. He is having a rough day and was not very professional
This controller is like this every day, unfortunately. Not enough Snickers in the world to fix his attitude.
This seems to be an increasing trend in busy airspace on the west coast (not sure about other areas of the US). Controllers and local pilots call out procedures not published by the FAA or AF/D. I've found that many times these procedures are only available on the airport's website, or worse, on the website of a local FBO. I've even run into a case where a departure procedure called out by the tower is only available in-person at the local flight school! (e.g. Lacamas Lake departure out of KTTD). In this specific case however, the tower was very helpful to pilots unfamiliar with the area.
I'm all for preflight planning and being prepared, but there's no reason to be unhelpful to a pilot that's not from the area and unaware of these special, non-required, unpublished, procedures.
So true. lol
They call those the local flavor. I flew in So Cal for the 1st time last month. Let's just say it was very interesting. They give you instructions like follow the 405 freeware south bound, or report veteran hospital, etc etc. Many of those landmarks can't be found on the charts and if you aren't a local it can be very confusing. Another atc guy wants you to report midfield downwind each time (but he doesn't instruct you to do so in your clearance...he just expects that regardless). These non standard things should not get the atc so pissy.
I trained in Camas and had no idea about the TTD transitions until I flew with someone domiciled there.
@@ahmadsamadzai8255 At my local airport there are 4 white water towers, each in its own quadrant around the field. One of them is a local reporting point called "white water tower". It's not marked on the chart, just local knowledge. You can't execute half of VFR procedures in or out of that airport unless you somehow guess which tower that is. The controllers will get upset at you if you don't know which one.
@@alk672 that's ridiculous.
+1 for awesome KTTD controllers.
Sounds like this tower "controller" needs to be given the # of the local FSDO and a refresher on regulatory VFR procedures.
Wtf. The controller is not being truthful here and that behavior was unacceptable
Most of y'all in here are acting like you wouldn't have made the same mistake. There are no departure procedures listed in Foreflight for any route that SQL ground had mentioned. You would have had to know these routes existed elsewhere. Could the pilot have done a little bit more research given the area? Sure. Was he professional in admitting he was unaware? Yes. Bunch of keyboard pilots in here who probably have never flown into a diverse area like this
The fact of the matter the only person who was out of line was the controller.
The noise abatement procedures that are being referenced are entirely voluntary. They are not published in the Chart Supplement nor on the sectional chart.
The controller could have chosen to maybe direct the pilot to the website, instead of just shrugging them off, or could provide suggested vectors based on their needs.
Agreed completely. They are not anywhere - foreflight's not FAA though it sometimes has additional useful info. If they want to yell at someone for not following a published procedure there are LOTS of tools to publish a procedure and they should use them. And they could advise as well on ATIS.
Most of the commenters aren't pilots or think their 2 hours a month in their rented 152 make them experienced cross-country pilots.
Call me lazy but I’d just file IFR. Legit sometimes it’s just easier than dealing with crazy one off VFR stuff.
As i understand it the problem with this airport is that the unpublished departure for rwy30 (which the controller claims is "published") is a VFR departure where you then pick up your IFR in the air. You can't take off there IFR--they won't give you departure clearance. I had the same thought but apparently that doesn't work here.
There are transition routes and flyways listed on the U.S. VFR Flyway Chart, such as "Bayshore VFR Transition" and Pacifica VFR Transition" to transit the Bravo, and "SW Bay Flyway", however, no charts list the voluntary noise abatement "Coyote Hills", Hillsdale", "Oracle", or "Woodside" departures/arrivals.
ATC: A visit at the cafe and a conversation with fellow pilot's is required before you contact tower! Didn't you read the NOTAMS?
I appreciate your channel and the work you do.
Thanks for the support!
@@VASAviation You're welcome! :D
lol I have second hand embarrassment from watching and listening that
This one is tricky. SQL is notorious for having vague departure procedures; so when tower references a “published” transition/procedure, there’s nothing standard to be found on a Jepp plate.
Also, contract tower, as opposed to FAA staffed tower. One of the side-effects is that these guys can be curt and at times, categorically rude.
All that being said, a PIC needs to do their homework (91.103) and be familiar with localisms unique to that facility.
If he was departing VFR, he should have said that and the controller *may* have steered him towards the hard-to-find publication. But his call up was vague and it degraded from there. Both should have done better.
Thank you, a Contract tower is usually staffed by military veterans, controllers that washed out of the FAA, or those with a CTO degree as well
Bingo, the problem being is that if you fly outside of the west coast, nobody knows how to find this information and it's also not really published in any visible place. I flew for 7.5 years in the midwest and never once touched an airport with a VFR proc. It wasn't included in my flight training, and these docs are only in a random pdf called "noise abatement procs" which translates to most pilots as "highly suggested, but voluntary".
I’m looking at KSQL and I’m not seeing anything about departure routes. Where do you find this information? All I see is in the afd contact the manager for noise abatement procedures
There is a big sign right by the entrance to the transient parking listing all the noise abatement procedures.
Thx
Make up a "frequent flyers" pilot group and operate regularly from this airport pretending not to know those unofficial procedures as you are not requested to know them. Only published regulations should be legal.
You will probably have the ATC or Airport managers to push for a supplement in the airport informations and please, file an ASR (Air Safety Report, or whatever is called in the US :) )
This guy is not an air traffc controller, more like an air traffic monitor... wtf is this... "I'll clear you whatever you want just so long as YOU TELL ME the clearance" This guy deserves an award for worst controller of the year. If it makes a difference the controller should be the one making those decisions. The pilot told him he wants to go to bakersfield, it's the CONTROLLERS job to CONTROL how he gets there.
This is on the tower. A voluntary noise abatement program published by the city is not regulatory by the FAA. This controller is likely a contractor and not an FAA employee. There are NO published noise abatement charts with the FAA, nor VFR departure procedures.
I keep my plane at KSQL. This is a crummy situation. The cessna pilot should know better than to request vectors out of an airport and at least be able to request the basic left crosswind, left downwind, etc. Glad to see he confessed he's unfamiliar. The controller is correct that the procedures are published, but you have to know to google search "sql vfr departure procedure". Google searching a non-official FAA departure procedure isn't part of a preflight. You could argue this falls under 91.103 Preflight action via "become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.". But realistically there's only so much you can do. There's no note in the AF/D that this procedure exists. This is the same problem with the non-FAA published document for the complicated VFR to IFR departure procedure that caused an incident that showed up on this channel not long ago.
I am a private pilot too...I noticed there is nothing in the AFD. How would this pilot know to google it and that the procedures are on the airport's website? Does the ATIS there advise departing traffic to find and review these procedures?
As the controller said, you need to ask the 5 guys in the Cafe. I'll add that to my briefings.
foreflight is a great pilot hack, every pilot should have it imo
@@rdkelley3 What if there's only 4? Then you're screwed. :)
@@steven2145googling is a bit extreme, but personally I always check airport websites for local information and procedures, and usually even call ahead to ask if there is anything unusual. Chance favors the prepared. He’s clearly already at the airport as well. I wouldn’t be surprised if the procedure is posted in the FBO somewhere as well. Looks confusing? Find a local pilot that can explain it.
I fly in and out of busy airports all over the place every day and was completely lost with the controllers verbiage, crazy how someone saying so many inaccurate things can make you question thousands of hours of experience.
Great job by the pilot keeping his cool and respectful attitude even with this tool of a controller.
Instead of lecturing and insulting the pilot why didn't the not-very-busy ATC guy just give the pilot the location of the info for the pilot to reference? Does the ATC guy know? This ATC guy has the personality of a bad cop.
DUDE, I just want to go to Bakersfield........
Remind me never to fly in that airspace...
This controller should be moved to another position that doesn't require competence or judgment.
This twin pilot failed to remember the seven ‘P’s!
Prior Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance!
He forgot to speak to the 5 guys at the café, that’s a mandatory flight prep item according to the controller.
Holy Cow!! This airport REALLY takes me back. In 1957-1959, my dad owned a 1948 Luscombe, and kept it tied down at San Carlos. I was a wee tyke of 7-9 years old at the time, and I remember fondly riding in the right seat with him in that airplane. At the time, San Carlos didn't even have a control tower and the Luscombe didn't have any radios, and the "class bravo" inverted wedding cake was a future thing. There was a levvy next to the south end of the runway that caused weird up/downdrafts on landing..
The procedures are written with a sharpie on the bathroom stall door be better prepared I expect more out of a twin Cessna
Pilot was humble in seeking out the information he needed. ATC seemed like a jerk
3:13 is where the controller starts trying to solve the problem that he’s sharing with the pilot
As a CFI who instructs in and out of every airport in the Bay Area, I gotta say SQL controllers are the absolute worst. Every time I go there I get a boatload of attitude from tower. Every. Time. Even when my students are doing the right thing the controller sounds exasperated that they aren't as sharp about it as he would like. It's gotten bad enough that I started briefing my students ahead of time to not take it personally when tower gets pissy with them.
I have landed at and departed from SQL several times, and never requested a specific departure route. It’s just the normal “left crosswind” or “straight out”. Not even the ones on the unofficial map.
The pilot was departing VFR. His accent was a bit heavy, and I couldn’t make out everything that he said, but given the direction of Bakersfield, he probably just wanted to do a downwind or right crosswind departure. ATC’s questions just muddied the waters, and his rude behavior was unacceptable.
Side note, the cafe that was mentioned is Sky Kitchen, and they have great omelets.
Okay, can someone help me here? Where are those departures published? I'm not seeing them under the airport airnav info.
Ladies and gentlemen, we got him!
@@bas8036 Haha. that wasn't me. I am just trying to learn here.
@crazy4gta1 I'm still not seeing all those departures that this video is referring to. The only departure procedure I see is the ODP for rwy 12 under IFR. Again, how and where would a VFR pilot find those?
@@saulhannibal3819 how would one know where to find those, and even that they exist, having never been there before?
@Saul Hannibal That helps. This is crazy if you think about it. I don't understand why these departure procedures aren't published under the A/FD. You know, the official source. Instead, it's published under the airport's website. I don't think VFR pilots look at airport websites every time they fly in/out of airport's. I certainly don't because I just look at the charts and A/FD.
I appreciate the pilot for not losing his cool and taking it on the chin. I can see other users more familiar with the airport have already commented on the ATC.
I once had to ferry a Navajo out of Anchorage. By then I had only been flying floats and skis in Canada outside of all controlled airspace for the last several years. My mother tongue being French, I was horrified, feeling like some kind of Crocodile Dundee in NYC. So first thing in the morning, I phoned the tower for a briefing; told my sad story, and promised they would never hear from me again. The guy laughed so much, telling me he'd make it really easy to me. And so did he. There's nothing like a good talk when in doubt.
Ouch. That was painful to listen to.
They said this information is publish... I haven't been able to find where this information was published at. Is it FAA that provide that chart the controller is talking about?
I found it by Googleing "SQL procedures"
@@VASAviation That is not part of my pre-flight planning when departing a class D airport VFR... you should not have "google" procedures if they are that important. They should be NOTAM'd or actually published if there are VFR procedures that are that important.
@@VASAviation Exactly. The ground controller is completely wrong on his affirmation. There is no FAA procedure for such a Departure. Its a voluntary noise abatement procedures. The pilot can or not be familiar with those procedures. Wrong attitude by the controller and If I was the pilot I would have a follow up on that.
@@lukedelisio3554 The "Published" procedure the controller is talking about is a Volutary Noise Abatement. Just insane the power trip the controller had.
I agree on that
He is not the first transient pilot at KSQL to be yelled or given a tone so perhaps they need to have a system to better inform transient pilots of the special procedures. The FAA makes the rules but keep them a secret and then blames you for being a moron.
not an FAA tower
Winning comment
I'm embarrassed for the pilot for taking this crap.
"I expected more out of twin Cessna pilot? " Why are they special??? Are Diamond pilots a problem we should worry about?
Sometimes, we have to go the extra mile. Lets' keep it safe!
That pilot was awesome. Kept his cool and admitted fault. The controller has a right to be frustrated but he calmed down and was helpful too. All worked out nicely!
The pilot was definitely not awesome. That pilot was DANGEROUS. Failing to brief your flight endangers everyone in the area. Total pilot failure.
@@Factory400
What baffles me is how at least 100 other people actually agree that the pilot was “awesome“ .
Clearly, they do not understand the necessity of being well organized and prepared to operate in congested, structured airspace. The pilot operating the Cessna 414 definitely needs a refresher course, as he appears to be ill-prepared, “rusty”, a very-low-time twin pilot, or all of the above. I’m trying to understand how he was [a bit arrogantly] of the belief that it was ATC’s responsibility to give him instructions and vectors for his departure, when he quite obviously failed to understand he was expected to have his departure information planned. He’s dangerously ‘behind the curve’ and not someone with whom I want to be sharing the airspace.
@@Factory400it s always better to ask stupid questions than doing stupid things, especially from a pilot
@@Boss_Tanaka Being proficient and prepared is better than either of your options.
I agree. Pilot coulda studied up a little more but when he knew he was wrong he fessed up, and got nothing but attitude
"I expect more from a twin cessna pilot" ...
I'd expect more from a controller, too 👍
"I expected more out of twin Cessna..." But I guess he doesn't expect a twin Cessna to not violate airspace on his own without some hidden dep procedure.
Training in a busy class D like this, anyone who is a local knows these like the back of their hand, but transient or non-local traffic can easily get screwed or caught off guard. When I call KRNT or KBFI ground, I'm expected to request a specific VFR departure, even though it's only published on city or county websites, and when I later call tower for an arrival, they always reply with simply "make [named] arrival." These really should become regulatory or official if you're expected to know and anticipate them like this.
To be fair, KBFI ultimately published their procedures, and if you simply say unfamiliar they'll help you out rather than what this controller did.
I've only been to KBFI in the middle of the night and they said nothing of proceedures, it was just plain old visual flight rules. But it was like 1-2 planes per hour.
The pilot seems to be of Indian descent; I say this only because I am one too and recognize the accent. Also, I am kinda/sorta glad to hear one, especially because he was quick to apologize, makeup, and promise to do better in the future. That's a great attitude for anyone when one realizes that one is in error!
He sounded to me like an exerienced pilot.
There are many, many, many Indians in the Bay Area. I have worked with at least a few hundred in the engineering companies I worked for there.
Except he wasn’t in error. The controller was nothing more than a bully who expected the guy to know to talk to some guys in a cafe to find out about some made up VFR departure procedure they came up with there. It isn’t official or published. The controller needs a reality and attitude check.
@@cageordie Not that it matters but he is an MD. out of Bakersfield.
I thought he sounded Indian too. I know that because I’m Australian and every second Australian is Indian 😉 I was actually wondering if that was why ATC was treating him like that. US ATC can be very often be churlish and childish with British accented pilots is something I’ve noticed too.
The problem I have with ATC in this case is that the published departures are published as VOLUNTARY NOISE ABATEMENT PROCEDURES! The key word being VOLUNTARY. There was no good excuse for the controller being such a dick about it.
Why couldn’t the tower just give him vectors which coincided with the VFR departure procedures?
Sounds like the nightmare every Cessna twin pilot has a few times a year. Like the one where you turn up naked to school 🤣
I would love to see you all flying into Belize when the radar is down and approach relies totally on you reporting land marks that you have never seen . This controller could have been very helpful and just given him the simplest route out . I'm sure the pilot was aware of the surrounding airspace.
Sounds to me like the pilot didn't volunteer to comply with the voluntary noise abatement. In all fairness if it's not published in an FAA approved document or other source it's strictly "not my problem". f the PIC feels he cannot or will not comply with those unapproved procedures he shouldn't follow them and will have no obligation to notify the tower of his intentions in that regard.
Airports like SNA have strict noise abatement as well, but a number is published in the A/FD (and I believe the Jepps charts) for you to call to get information about it. Thought to be fair, and I may be wrong, but SNA has mandatory noise abatement - not voluntary. Often times these voluntary procedures are called "voluntary" because they reduce the safety of flight and would not be approved using TERPS criteria.
I like how the top of the noise abatement procedures says "voluntary", I know there have been comments regarding the pilots lack judgment and preflight planning however I think that his willingness to admit unfamiliarity and clarification is the mark of a pilot who knows his limits of knowledge. While I sympathize with an overworked controller not wanting to spend time explaining non standard procedures it is far better that we heard this exchange and not an inadvertent Bravo violation or lessor traffic conflict.
Not an aviator. I’m having a bit of hard time to understand what’s happening here. Is 414 flying VFR? If he does, is there airports VFR charts for procedures? I’ve only seen IFR charts for procedures. I’ve seen that VFR planing is not required when operating under class B.
Sorry if my comment sounds too dumb
It's a difficult situation since the departure procedures ATC is referencing don't seem to be official or published. It is not listed in the chart supplement, NOTAMS, anywhere except a brief reference to voluntary noise abatement procedures which the pilot would have to call the airport manager to obtain. I think the controller should have been more aware of that.
This is a great question. There are some VFR approach charts, 2 famous examples are KDCA (Washington DC Reagan airport) Runway 19 River Visual approach, or the Honolulu PHNL Runway 22L Power Plant Visual approach. The only published "Visual Departure Procedure" I am familiar is KTEB Teterboro Runway 19 "Dalton 2" departure. As T^ above me mentioned, KSQL does /not/ have any official FAA departure procedures easily accessible for view as a commercial pilot. Even the KSQL Citation video from January or February 2023 has no official depiction of the regularly issued departure procedure on runway 30.
@@danmiller7888
Visual approaches, including the charted visuals you mentioned, are IFR procedures conducted in VMC conditions. They are not VFR approaches and would not be issued to a pilot on a VFR flight plan.
Looking through Garmin Pilot, I see no departure procedures for FAA or Jepp charts for this airport, does anyone know why?
I'm on Garmin Pilot too. If you look under the airport "info" then "remarks", they are listed under "noise information". There are no charts, plates, or graphics for these departures that I could find, only transcribed instructions.
This is a sophisticated airspace!
This person should not be flying an airplane.
This was painful omg
Didn’t have to be, controller is a clown 🤡
where the hell are these published???
probably in a chart supplement but idk
@@airplanekiwi6019 nope, no chart supplement... Only "published" on the airport's website
@@scul00 ngl thats kinda stupid
Probably nowhere
Should report the ATC to the FAA
Another controller who' head is to big. Though he helps in the end he had to show his superiority. Pilot did not argue but was quite humble. Moved iron birds for over 20 years at all level facilities and never talked to a pilot like that.
I’ve flown out of KSQL (thanks to Jason from the Finer Points) and it has some of the most complex airspace anywhere. It’s definitely a place you need to do your homework for.
Maybe so, but it should be published in an official FAA FLIP. The dude drinking coffee in the cafe or the bulletin board in the pilot lounge aren’t what I’d consider placing documents.
Homework doesn't include googling shit or speaking to the local pilots in the cafe. This controller was way out line.
@Nick Duncan Absolutely. I would have been so pissed if I was this pilot.
I wonder if SQL has huge signs everywhere to remind pilots that the airport has "published" but non-standard departures?
"Published". On display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”
@@kaasmeester5903 I understood that reference
It does have a big sign right by the entrance of the transient parking!
I don’t understand why I like watching these so much. I am not a pilot and have never been interested in aviation. I can’t stop.
He needed to be chewed out. Was surprised ATC was patient with him before the reprimand. I study the heck out of the airport and get a couple of routes planned with diversions. PS, I ask my a new ski coach the room address of the boot technician and he has a cow. Then continues to insult me.
where can I find those proedures in foreflight?
You can't.
@@addsub49 Lol I thought this question was a sarcastic joke... It looks like a local procedure from the FBO office... I always ask what kind of quikrps there are for any nonstandard local departures.
You can find it by going to the airport comments, then click remarks. This is the only way to find it on foreflight.
@@xsnow5005 which, IMO, is not an official source, and would not be a normal part of my preflight planning...
@@scul00 I completely understand and know this. I was only able to find it like this because someone posted it on google. was just answering his question.
Some 30 years ago I installed the system there that allowed pilots to light the field at night by a series of keying their mics. It sounds like a lot has changed since then. I'm not sure it is for the better, though.
I fly out of this airport and I can confirm that that particular controller has very low tolerance for pilots that are not on top of their game, is like he is always pissed off.
The noise abatement departure procedures are on ForeFlight on the SQL airport page under “comments “
So what you are saying really is that that ATC is incompetent and relying totally on the pilots to do his job for him, because he can’t. And when faced with a situation whereby a pilot unfamiliar with the airport and simply expecting a taxi, runway, take off, vector from ATC suddenly finds himself being made the fall guy for ATC’s inability to do his job. First up maybe he should learn what published means. It sounds like he got his ATC training from the 5 randoms in the café.
Pilot in the right controller is completely wrong
I looked at the sectional for this area, and while it is complex, any seasoned pilot should be able to manage it on his own. In this scenario, I don't see why the tower couldn't just have the guy make a left turn direct to KBFL and stay under 3,000' until clear of Bravo area H and then stay below Bravo area I, which goes up to 4,000'. Really simple. Instead, the controller tried to make it more complicated than was necessary. Making a left turn direct here makes the flight quite a non-issue.
Turning right has a bit more airspace involved, but again, any seasoned pilot should be able to manage the flight path and altitude appropriately. It should not be the controllers duty to tell the pilot that he is not capable and should be flying a transition because it's "complex". So what...if I choose to depart, I'm going to handle it.
It's a right hand traffic pattern with hills to the left, so there is that.
"I don't see why the tower couldn't just have the guy make a left turn direct to KBFL and stay under 3,000' until clear of Bravo area H and then stay below Bravo area"
Because it's the only power he has in his little world, so he gets to exercise it and he damn will exercise that power.