Sorry, it seems you can´t see Zverev taking the ball a bit earlier in the crosscourt and a bit late in the down the line backhand. Mouratoglou is right.
What PM is saying here is that the same swing can be used to hit ball in 3 direction by differing timing(not point of contact),its same swing so there is a disguise. In case of one handed backhand for RH player the left leg always stays behind. He is not wrong, I am using this myself n never seen his videos before.
I think you're looking at this from an isolated perspective. We'll only really know what he's teaching her after watching a few weeks of coaching, because he may be training her to do this in preparation for something else. Not everyone is the same, so some people need different techniques when it comes to coaching because they just can't get something right. I've coached for 15 years, and I have come up with all sorts of things that work for some players and not others and vice-versa. If she were hitting the ball very hard, her back foot would naturally leave the ground as she swivels through a shot, but because she's hitting it soft, both feet should be planted, as you say. But maybe he's getting her used to the feeling of having your backfoot leave the ground when you crack a backhand. Again, I don't know because this is only a snippet of their overall curriculum.
Just curious. Who have you coached vs who has Patrick coached… … wait Serena Williams the best female player ever. I have seen Patrick play and he is excellent and I am pretty confident he could beat you at his age now vs you at your peak. Patrick has trained Rune, Dmitrov… etc. also trained at his camp is Stefanos Tsitsipas, Coco Gauff, and Brenda and Linda Fruhvirtova. I just find it hard to believe you can be that dismissive. Would love to know how far your players went coach in world rankings vs him.
The players you mentioned Rune Tsitsipas and all the others were already World Class players when they worked with PM. He did certainly not develop the players from a very young age.
I find this very odd like in both padel and tennis I have been told that ball position dictates the direction. Early more angle and "late" straight shot. Anyway I think with Mouratoglou resume no one can say he is wrong like it speaks for itself. I would take his advice regardless of what I think.
Sorry, I'm not buying this. Hitting early and late does change the direction of the ball. In baseball, if a right-handed batter swings early it goes to left field, if he swings late on a fastball, it goes to right field. Same works for tennis. Also how is this not disguised if the feet, hips shoulders, etc are all the same - only the hitting point is different? James Blake talked about hitting early and late on his forehand and he had an OK career.
@@dbish2049 Americans get many things wrong about tennis because of their closer intimacy with baseball and using that as a reference point. Hitting a tennis ball with a tennis racket is different from baseball. The main difference is that you swing upward to generate spin. Another difference is that the ( lower) tension of the strings allows you to generate power even if the raquet is not a full extension of the arm. And this in turn allows you to direct the shot not only using body position but also wrist angle. Another misconception by the way is that the serve is a throwing motion. American (online) coaches are fond of using that analogy because of the preponderance of throwing in American sports. In European sports, throwing is comparatively less important and no decent European coach will use it as an analogy for serving. (Because it really isn't the same although it shares a few aspects)
@@knotwilg3596 I appreciate your well thought out response but I’m not confused about anything because of baseball. I can agree with your point of view to some extent if we are talking about the 2 handed backhand because it’s basically just a forehand stroke with the opposite hand. But if you are a one hander trying to hit down the line with that advice you will not be able to do it with consistent power. I’ve been blasting backhands down the line with great success for 45 years. Also can you tell me what would happen if you let go of your racquet at the top of your service motion? would you not throw your racquet somewhere?? You do realize that objects can be thrown in more than one direction, right? Next time you're at the courts throw a tennis ball straight up in the air and tell me it has no similarity to the service motion.
So let me understand....if a ball is coming at me perpendicular to the net....and if I hit tha ball with my racquet parallel to the net....that ball is going to go straight back down the line it came to me on....conversely if I hit that same ball with my racquet less than parallel to the net then the ball will head cross court depending on the angle..... All of this happens regardless of whether I hit early or late....it's about face angle at contact right?
Yes but if the ball comes at u fast/heavy it is not enough with correct face angle, u body should be behind the target direction also, ie slightly more rotated for cc, ie earlier contact.
Do a backhand swing and you can see the racket face points DTL early on, and then points more crosscourt later on in the swing. Hence this 'early' and 'late' idea.
Good tennis players can make micro adjustments w their racquet....at any point in the swing....it's a choice/decision....my point is that face angle at contact is a key determining factor for trajectory....
@@georgedewey6439 It is, but I disagree with the video. IMO, players hit cross court shots with contact points further out in front compared to down the line. Yes, they could hit any direction with any kind of contact point, but generally speaking it's a good rule.
Yeah, the 45 angle in the second part was actually crossing the real line of the arm. That was funny. I disagree with both PM and Broudy here. See my comment (if you care) Cheers!
On Zverev backhand you say he is keeping weight on his back leg yet he is playing off his front foot and using his back leg to make adjustments. Sometimes it'll stay back Sometimes it will come around depending on his momentum and where the balance needs to go. Sorry but your analysis is trash
It's not a matter of the time, but the face of the racket which makes it cross or down! That's the point! Of course if you hit early or late, the angle of the racket will be different, but this is BOT style of playing! If you place a robot in the very same spot, and turn it a little to meet the ball early, it will be the very same result. But humans are NOT BOTS! Cheers!
So help me understand....if a ball is coming at me perpendicular to the net...and I hit the ball with the racquet parallel to the net (perpendicular to my racquet)....that ball is going to go back in the same direction (regardless of whether I hit it early or late)... conversely if I hit that ball with the racquet angled (not perpendicular to the ball) then the shot will cross the court depending n the angle of the racquet...right? So how does this conversation about timing even matter...isn't it more about face angle at contact?
Taking the ball early does two things. First it takes time away from your opponent resulting in them having less time to prepare for their shot. Second, it also give you a slightly better angle to play a shorter powered shot out the side driving your opponent way off court. If they manage to return a shot like that you will have a open court to hit into. The whole purpose of this kind of shot coaching is about building up to a point win. You always need to think a few shots ahead otherwise you are always on the defence.
PM is an absolute joke of a coach. It's one of the mysteries of modern tennis why this guy is actually coaching professionals. It's probably nothing but an artefact of his real estate in training facilities, bought with daddy's money. But then him teaching accomplished players basic technique, and even WRONG, that's the biggest mystery. He must be completely delusional not to see that he's ridiculing himself this way. He probably believes his own bonkers advice and his "pupils" go along with the BS because they get a free session with a real coach in his premises later. Now I don't fully agree with you either: I do believe the raquet position and whole body is a bit different at contact when going DDL or CC, and how could it not be, since the whole body is involved in directing the shot. So it's not fully disguised but of course pros wait until the very last moment to make the decisive change. I would even say disguise is not the point. You need to contact the ball in front to maximize the power coming out of the rotation.That's why "contacting it later" is total BS for advice. But thanks for bashing PM. He needs that, to remove himself from the teaching path.
Oftentimes pros and coaches explain one thing but do another. Their false imagery can still lead to success. Open or closed stance, Zverev would still be able to hit both shots, so stance and direction are more independent from each other, at least for advanced players....
Are you just trolling? It really feels like you barely play tennis. Even the examples you gave with zverev disprove you, he makes contact early to go cross court and later to go down the line. Any top level player could tell you the adjustments he makes to do this. Your advice would only be valid if you were aiming to have suboptimal shots… I played college tennis, so by all means I might not really get 3.5 USTA tennis thinking.
Aren’t you the kinetic chain guy?? The more torque you produce, the more you hit out in front (aka: early), the more the back leg gets pulled off the ground. So this means if the back leg isn’t coming around, the contact point has to be farther back, even if it’s by centimeters. And I thought you studied physics, too This also works just by drawing a circle and diagramming the tangential velocities as if looking at a player from above (assuming a right-handed backhand). If the ball is coming from cross court, sending the ball right back to where it came from would be a tangent line approximately anywhere between the 150° to 120° points, thus a tangent line off of the 180° (late relative to the incoming ball) would send the ball down the line
Just because a concept might be outdated doesn't mean it's a bad concept. I'm not a fan of PM but he's coached elite players with some success. Whether he was responsible for the success of his players or not is neither here nor there but he isn't a shit coach. You may not agree with what he's saying but using the technique of elite players to illustrate your point is weak. None of these guys play today the same way they did ten years ago, the more they play the more their game evolves. So the tips that he's giving to this kid will help her now and as she improves she'll be able to hit line and cross court more effectively with little to no change in where she takes the ball.
Why are showing Djokovic hitting a backhand return of serve? The footwork is much more like a volley footwork pattern. I wonder if you're purposely being misleading to fit your narrative 🤔
Oh my God man you are just talking pure rubbish about the back leg. You don't seem to have any basic understanding of how the body actually works while hitting a ball in tennis. There is always a transfer of loading from the back leg to the front leg when hitting either a forehand or a backhand. You used Novak as an example, he has an open stance and he still transfers his weight from backleg to frontleg. Maybe your just making this video to gey a reaction 🤔 😄 But you definitely don't seem like you coach at a high level.
Open stance means parallel feet, so there is no front and back leg. He's not wrong about the stance. That's one explanation why closed stance means more control. For advanced players it's becoming just less of an issue.
Sorry, it seems you can´t see Zverev taking the ball a bit earlier in the crosscourt and a bit late in the down the line backhand. Mouratoglou is right.
What PM is saying here is that the same swing can be used to hit ball in 3 direction by differing timing(not point of contact),its same swing so there is a disguise. In case of one handed backhand for RH player the left leg always stays behind. He is not wrong, I am using this myself n never seen his videos before.
I love when coaches disagree.
I think you're looking at this from an isolated perspective. We'll only really know what he's teaching her after watching a few weeks of coaching, because he may be training her to do this in preparation for something else.
Not everyone is the same, so some people need different techniques when it comes to coaching because they just can't get something right.
I've coached for 15 years, and I have come up with all sorts of things that work for some players and not others and vice-versa.
If she were hitting the ball very hard, her back foot would naturally leave the ground as she swivels through a shot, but because she's hitting it soft, both feet should be planted, as you say. But maybe he's getting her used to the feeling of having your backfoot leave the ground when you crack a backhand.
Again, I don't know because this is only a snippet of their overall curriculum.
Well said.
It doesn’t matter what he is teaching her, it matters what he is teaching everyone that watches the video.
PM is like a sleazy car salesman
Because he is one.
Just curious. Who have you coached vs who has Patrick coached… … wait Serena Williams the best female player ever. I have seen Patrick play and he is excellent and I am pretty confident he could beat you at his age now vs you at your peak. Patrick has trained Rune, Dmitrov… etc. also trained at his camp is Stefanos Tsitsipas, Coco Gauff, and Brenda and Linda Fruhvirtova. I just find it hard to believe you can be that dismissive. Would love to know how far your players went coach in world rankings vs him.
The players you mentioned Rune Tsitsipas and all the others were already World Class players when they worked with PM.
He did certainly not develop the players from a very young age.
I listen to Jack on the Figure 8 and 45 angle. Backhand/forehand is zero to hero. I wonder what would happen if went to a camp?😮
I find this very odd like in both padel and tennis I have been told that ball position dictates the direction. Early more angle and "late" straight shot.
Anyway I think with Mouratoglou resume no one can say he is wrong like it speaks for itself. I would take his advice regardless of what I think.
Sorry, I'm not buying this. Hitting early and late does change the direction of the ball. In baseball, if a right-handed batter swings early it goes to left field, if he swings late on a fastball, it goes to right field. Same works for tennis. Also how is this not disguised if the feet, hips shoulders, etc are all the same - only the hitting point is different? James Blake talked about hitting early and late on his forehand and he had an OK career.
You are spot on. The first thing that came to my mind was also hitting a baseball.
@@dbish2049 Americans get many things wrong about tennis because of their closer intimacy with baseball and using that as a reference point. Hitting a tennis ball with a tennis racket is different from baseball. The main difference is that you swing upward to generate spin. Another difference is that the ( lower) tension of the strings allows you to generate power even if the raquet is not a full extension of the arm. And this in turn allows you to direct the shot not only using body position but also wrist angle. Another misconception by the way is that the serve is a throwing motion. American (online) coaches are fond of using that analogy because of the preponderance of throwing in American sports. In European sports, throwing is comparatively less important and no decent European coach will use it as an analogy for serving. (Because it really isn't the same although it shares a few aspects)
@@knotwilg3596 I appreciate your well thought out response but I’m not confused about anything because of baseball. I can agree with your point of view to some extent if we are talking about the 2 handed backhand because it’s basically just a forehand stroke with the opposite hand. But if you are a one hander trying to hit down the line with that advice you will not be able to do it with consistent power. I’ve been blasting backhands down the line with great success for 45 years. Also can you tell me what would happen if you let go of your racquet at the top of your service motion? would you not throw your racquet somewhere?? You do realize that objects can be thrown in more than one direction, right? Next time you're at the courts throw a tennis ball straight up in the air and tell me it has no similarity to the service motion.
Lmao comparing tennis techniques to baseball is asinine
So let me understand....if a ball is coming at me perpendicular to the net....and if I hit tha ball with my racquet parallel to the net....that ball is going to go straight back down the line it came to me on....conversely if I hit that same ball with my racquet less than parallel to the net then the ball will head cross court depending on the angle.....
All of this happens regardless of whether I hit early or late....it's about face angle at contact right?
Yes but if the ball comes at u fast/heavy it is not enough with correct face angle, u body should be behind the target direction also, ie slightly more rotated for cc, ie earlier contact.
Do a backhand swing and you can see the racket face points DTL early on, and then points more crosscourt later on in the swing. Hence this 'early' and 'late' idea.
Good tennis players can make micro adjustments w their racquet....at any point in the swing....it's a choice/decision....my point is that face angle at contact is a key determining factor for trajectory....
@@georgedewey6439 It is, but I disagree with the video. IMO, players hit cross court shots with contact points further out in front compared to down the line. Yes, they could hit any direction with any kind of contact point, but generally speaking it's a good rule.
True but the down the line contact point was a little closer to his body than the cross court? But is back leg staying back is the key
Yeah, the 45 angle in the second part was actually crossing the real line of the arm. That was funny. I disagree with both PM and Broudy here. See my comment (if you care) Cheers!
Zverev's entire lower body is positioned differently in each of those shots.
@@michaeljohnson2470 look deeper. Hips.
@@JackBroudy Whatever, you guys look foolish out here, calling out other instructors like you are the god of tennis.
On Zverev backhand you say he is keeping weight on his back leg yet he is playing off his front foot and using his back leg to make adjustments. Sometimes it'll stay back Sometimes it will come around depending on his momentum and where the balance needs to go. Sorry but your analysis is trash
It's not a matter of the time, but the face of the racket which makes it cross or down! That's the point! Of course if you hit early or late, the angle of the racket will be different, but this is BOT style of playing! If you place a robot in the very same spot, and turn it a little to meet the ball early, it will be the very same result. But humans are NOT BOTS! Cheers!
One bullshitter criticizing another bullshitter 😂
So help me understand....if a ball is coming at me perpendicular to the net...and I hit the ball with the racquet parallel to the net (perpendicular to my racquet)....that ball is going to go back in the same direction (regardless of whether I hit it early or late)... conversely if I hit that ball with the racquet angled (not perpendicular to the ball) then the shot will cross the court depending n the angle of the racquet...right?
So how does this conversation about timing even matter...isn't it more about face angle at contact?
Taking the ball early does two things. First it takes time away from your opponent resulting in them having less time to prepare for their shot.
Second, it also give you a slightly better angle to play a shorter powered shot out the side driving your opponent way off court. If they manage to return a shot like that you will have a open court to hit into.
The whole purpose of this kind of shot coaching is about building up to a point win.
You always need to think a few shots ahead otherwise you are always on the defence.
PM is an absolute joke of a coach. It's one of the mysteries of modern tennis why this guy is actually coaching professionals. It's probably nothing but an artefact of his real estate in training facilities, bought with daddy's money.
But then him teaching accomplished players basic technique, and even WRONG, that's the biggest mystery. He must be completely delusional not to see that he's ridiculing himself this way. He probably believes his own bonkers advice and his "pupils" go along with the BS because they get a free session with a real coach in his premises later.
Now I don't fully agree with you either: I do believe the raquet position and whole body is a bit different at contact when going DDL or CC, and how could it not be, since the whole body is involved in directing the shot. So it's not fully disguised but of course pros wait until the very last moment to make the decisive change. I would even say disguise is not the point. You need to contact the ball in front to maximize the power coming out of the rotation.That's why "contacting it later" is total BS for advice.
But thanks for bashing PM. He needs that, to remove himself from the teaching path.
this guy has multiple tennis academies you realise?
@@robbydebeuf6405 I realize. He has capital and good marketing. But he doesn't seem to understand tennis technique. Which indeed is baffling.
Oftentimes pros and coaches explain one thing but do another. Their false imagery can still lead to success. Open or closed stance, Zverev would still be able to hit both shots, so stance and direction are more independent from each other, at least for advanced players....
Are you just trolling? It really feels like you barely play tennis.
Even the examples you gave with zverev disprove you, he makes contact early to go cross court and later to go down the line. Any top level player could tell you the adjustments he makes to do this.
Your advice would only be valid if you were aiming to have suboptimal shots…
I played college tennis, so by all means I might not really get 3.5 USTA tennis thinking.
Aren’t you the kinetic chain guy??
The more torque you produce, the more you hit out in front (aka: early), the more the back leg gets pulled off the ground. So this means if the back leg isn’t coming around, the contact point has to be farther back, even if it’s by centimeters.
And I thought you studied physics, too
This also works just by drawing a circle and diagramming the tangential velocities as if looking at a player from above (assuming a right-handed backhand). If the ball is coming from cross court, sending the ball right back to where it came from would be a tangent line approximately anywhere between the 150° to 120° points, thus a tangent line off of the 180° (late relative to the incoming ball) would send the ball down the line
good call out Coach. PM is much better at marketing himself than coaching tennis players.
@@monstertrucktennis agreed. I usually just swipe right but this one is soooo bad! I had to say something. This lesson shows he doesn’t know shit.
As a beginner I like to hit the ball late so I can moonball
He is a snake oil salesman... Always comes up with some imaginery problem to fix.
Just because a concept might be outdated doesn't mean it's a bad concept. I'm not a fan of PM but he's coached elite players with some success. Whether he was responsible for the success of his players or not is neither here nor there but he isn't a shit coach. You may not agree with what he's saying but using the technique of elite players to illustrate your point is weak. None of these guys play today the same way they did ten years ago, the more they play the more their game evolves. So the tips that he's giving to this kid will help her now and as she improves she'll be able to hit line and cross court more effectively with little to no change in where she takes the ball.
Why are showing Djokovic hitting a backhand return of serve? The footwork is much more like a volley footwork pattern. I wonder if you're purposely being misleading to fit your narrative 🤔
It’s a fraction of a second difference but Patrick is right.
No he is not dude is wrong actually a scammer
That coach should give Serena Williams 10% of what he earns for life.
Agreed. He is what he is now because of Serena.
Get 'em Jack! Hold them accountable.
Looking at this all I can say is one of these coaches doesn’t know Jack about tennis.
There is so much bad info from all manner of coaches....very few of you really know it all...
Oh my God man you are just talking pure rubbish about the back leg. You don't seem to have any basic understanding of how the body actually works while hitting a ball in tennis.
There is always a transfer of loading from the back leg to the front leg when hitting either a forehand or a backhand.
You used Novak as an example, he has an open stance and he still transfers his weight from backleg to frontleg.
Maybe your just making this video to gey a reaction 🤔 😄
But you definitely don't seem like you coach at a high level.
Open stance means parallel feet, so there is no front and back leg. He's not wrong about the stance. That's one explanation why closed stance means more control. For advanced players it's becoming just less of an issue.
Mouratoglou is a grifter
He's good at grooming
@@graymcmic1419 😂
@@JackBroudy you are not taking this very serious are you...