I think while your team is holding a cash out , every kill while holding the cash out should add to the cash total for that cash out station. It would incentivize holding the cash out and ensure early cash boxes still give a decent amount of cash. The bonus would reset if some team steals it. Defenders get a reward for maintaining it for the duration and upsets are still possible but not as dramatic.
I agree with everything you're saying in the video. One more point I think Embark should consider is reducing the deducted points for losing when a teammate is AFK or rage quits.
Also unfair difficulty estimation, especially easy mathes. They're not easy. You're forced to put more effort for lesser reward and more severe punishment for being dominated
2:18 At first I was like wow ive had a game EXACTLY like this and then realized its literally me in there haha, that game was extremely frustrating and a great example of how broken ranked is
Your solution to fix cashout by forcing winners to spectate would improve the pace of the game and make it more fair but the sole idea of forcing a team to spectate while the others get to play is remarkedly unfun and drastic, removing the math game from cashout would make the game a lot more approachable indeed but also take away a lot of the surprise and capacity for unexpected situations in Cashout.
Heck yeah good idea. It could be something like: all four losing teams in the first match compete in one separate game to mitigate ranked losses, OR more interestingly allow only 1 team to qualify into the final round as a third party
I agree with everything. I saw one comment here that talked about trickle in cash once you get the vault in. I think that would be good, and if someone stole it then you only get money based upon how long you hold the cash out rather then the whole thing if you get a last minute steal. Each round is different to keep it exciting. One round trickle and the next gets the full cash out or something of the sort. There needs to be incentive to hold the cash out and disincentive hard third party. Third party isn't a terrible thing when it's controlled but anytime it's better to just third party all the time to win a game or control someone else's point and let another team win then third partying has gone off the rails. It should be strictly on did you get the cashout or put in work to hold it. But one thing you didn't mention is how toxic the game is getting due to bad match making. A lot of higher rank people expect everyone to play around them or know meta and run it perfectly. It's getting on league of legends level and it's turning players away pretty fast.
Restrict parties by ensuring they queue only against parties of the same rank or one rank above/below. For example, Ruby players can only play with Diamond players, and Diamond players can only play with Platinum and Ruby players. If they are in a party of three, the MM should prioritize matching them against other parties of three in the same game. It needs to be fair, even at the cost of increasing wait times. Playing The Finals means accepting that getting third-partied is part of the experience. Putting the current first-place team’s money at stake during the final minutes of a match would be a fair and balanced punishment if they mess up. For example: If a member of the first-place team gets killed, the team loses a percentage of their money, Killing a first-place team member would reward the rest of the players with twice the amount of money compared to regular kills, A full team wipe for the first-place team would result in a more significant penalty, costing them a larger percentage of their total money. The math issue affects everyone because the UI isn't intuitive enough-it’s too minimalistic. Here are three changes I’d love to see: 1.- Improved Money Display: Display the total amount of money a team would have if they successfully defend or steal an active station. 2.- Enhanced Death Stats: An idea shared by vertopolkaLF on Reddit. 3.- Advanced Scoreboard: A suggestion by me. When pressing TAB+R, the normal scoreboard should switch to an alternative one that displays everyone’s specialization, entire loadout, party status, and rank. Also, solve the issue of class being hidden by a skull when a player dies. And lastly, this game desperately needs Diminishing Returns, specifically in the form of NO DUPLICATE SPECIALIZATIONS per team. I’ve been advocating for this since Season 1, but it seems to go unnoticed. The lack of this system is the reason specializations like Mesh Shield and Healing Beam have been hit with so many consecutive nerfs due to parties excesively stacking these combinations, which ultimately leaves solo and duo players at a significant disadvantage when trying to use those. Implementing this change would bring several benefits: Stop the endless cycle of continuous nerfs (basically making the game less fun by reducing power levels), Encourage players to explore and experiment with other options, Promote teamwork and reduce abuse from 3-man parties running identical - unfair setups, Allow developers to shift focus toward creating more diverse and balanced specializations. To address potential issues, players should have their top three preferred loadouts before queuing. Most importantly, this change should be accompanied by reverting the nerfs applied to gadgets and specializations as a result of the double- or triple-meta abuse. So many changes so little planning, with an E-Sports event around the corner i doubt they will add anything major to the game, matter of fact i have 0 expectations for the next patches balance-wise. Too bad, so sad.
I’ve always thought that having a system where the money from a cash out either slow trickles into your teams piggy bank or every 30 seconds you win a 1/4 portion of the cash out and the rest is up for grabs by whoever steals it. This would prevent last second steals and would reward teams for actually holding thier objectives. It would also virtually delete double stacking cash outs and in a way I like to think it would help out with third parties. Of course you would have to remove 10% on plug to make this work.
They also gotta accompany it with an rs rework losing 800rs when I’m a plat 2 in a full 45k+ tourney makes no sense to me I’m obviously a filler for this lobby so I either shouldn’t lose or I should gain like back in TA when it was a mega lopsided lobby
Great video, hopefully they address the issue of how pointless the 1st and 2nd cashouts are. You should never succesfully plug and defend two cashouts to still not make it to the next round just because someone got a last second steal on the doubled 3rd cashout. Definitely agree with making all cashouts an equal value
The finals has a balancing issue. A couple of days ago playing world tour, it was questionably hard, made it to the finals twice. A day ago, it was unreasonably hard, I couldn't even make it to the second round. I'm constantly paired with highly skilled players, very few times do I get matched with players on a reasonable level.
We had a ruby team grief us like this. There was a solo player who they teamed up with. And they let them steal and were literally running side by side as a 4 man team and we got sent to the lobby. Also theres a lone ruby team that every other plat and even diamond team avoid. Meaning they get everything for free and even third party. Lol as i posted this comment you mentioned the lone ruby team everyone avoids
A small change would be to make the Cashout in the knockout rounds cash out in 3 waves. Give 25% of the cash at 1/3 the time, 25% cash at 2/3 the time and 50% at the end. This would incentivize people to hold cashouts instead of 3rd partying at the end. Also eliminates the cheated feeling when your team hold the cashout for 99% of the timer, but it gets stolen last second
Theres also no draw system in quick cash(unrelated I know) so after a single cashout sometimes a light will run away with the cash box all game and even if you do manange to get another cashout in (usually its too late to get a thrid) the first team to get 10k automatically gets picked as the winners.
I know it's a bit more of a drastic change but another idea I've also had for a ranked format change is still tournament style but only with the final round style of gameplay. So would be 4 groups of 3v3 in r1 2 groups of 3v3 in r2 and then normal final round. Keep the standard tournament style in world tour but this way it's a more traditional 1 team vs 1 team format for ranked modes. This would also benefit from reducing map size by 50% or down to 33%. Could also be first to 75k (or 3 cashouts) and the section of the map rotates after each cash (players take damage if outside zone after a certain time frame.
I love new ideas like this. It would be great to try out in world tour to see how it plays out. I truly love the idea of cashouts complete contributing to elo gain bcs it feels really bad when you walk away w 0 or negative elo even tho you got 33k and the 2nd place quals by a couple kills
Personally, I really like the way cashout works right now, it gives it depth no other game can have. Making decisions to split or stack the last two cashboxes, trying to help losing teams to proceed to the next round, It alway a big thrill. On lower ranks this strategy is harder to execute and it backfires sometimes. Maybe it's unfair in terms of competitive standpoint, but I ultimately play this game for fun and I have a lot of it precisely because of these strategies
I agree that it's fun and no other game has what The Finals has. I'm just thinking how for highly competitive players this would drive them away (and it already has), and if real money is ever involved, this is a major problem. No one wants to watch an esport or any sport, for that matter, where the tournament finals consist of the best team vs. the worst team. It just doesn't make for a thrilling end. I've heard rumors of esports this year or next, and if those rumors are true, this 100% needs to be ironed out.
Most games I am facing teams who are 20,000 points higher than me and my team. Why play ranked if your gold playing Rubys and Diamonds? Why don’t I play against low bronze and people 20,000 people lower than me?
The problem with the game is that the classes and weapons and utilities allow you to play the game your way. But then the game mode is very strict and dictates how you must play the game. Both ideas are opposing. They should create multiple ways to get money and not base it all on the cash out. I have had many moments where I win 4 gunfights then lose the last and because of that get knocked out of the tournament. They should give money for kills, for how long you spent protecting the cash out. Points for grabbing smaller cash out boxes only worth 500 to 1k each. You need to be able to play the game your way.
I think it could work better to do kind of the opposite. Instead of having one team qualify early and have to wait and spectate, what if there was a way to have one team disqualified early so they can just leave. Something like you have to reach a certain cash threshold by a certain time or you’re out. I think you would still need other changes to go along with this, as it would still create the opportunity for the top team to grief out their biggest competition, but if combined with a higher wipe penalty, this would allow the second place team to take out the first place team by wiping them, so at least there could be some counterplay. I think the current meta really suffers from both the high value of plugs and the low wipe penalty, which both incentivize the behavior you’re talking about. Definitely appreciate the video, this exact problem has kinda killed my interest in cashout this season.
Actually a good video but numb. Cause second place can just play smart and get into the last fight knowing they are Second and pick they re fights. If they actually playing random then dont even deserve the 2nd place from the start
Why not just run it like quick cash with only 1 team progressing, faster match making, with single cash outs at a time being easier for new players to understand as well
Really appreciate you laying out all your thoughts like that. It's a big problem for the game. Unfortunately, it is hard to see how you really eliminate the griefing, plug meta, 3rd partying and no-partying problems simultaneously (the plug meta arose in response to an attempt to reduce the frustrations with either losing cashouts to 3rd parties or sitting around while getting free cashouts as three weaker teams try to 3rd party for the other cashout, iirc). I think maybe Embark should come to grips with the fact that the 3v3v3v3 mode should be abandoned altogether. The problem is probably economics. I don't know for sure, but I bet 3v3v3v3 saves on server costs. But if it's at the expense of the long-term health of the game, then what's the point of economizing? 3v3v3 is fun for wild casual play, but the big complaints around 3rd partying come back big time if RS is at stake. Ultimately, going to 3v3, perhaps exclusively, seems like the only way to make everything clear cut. Definitely worth Embark experimenting with your ideas, but my suspicion and concern is that players will learn to game any complicated system in uncool ways.
I think Embark has realized 3v3v3v3 doesn't work, and that's why we got Terminal Attack ranked for a season. Unfortunately, that game mode doesn't do a great job of showcasing what makes The Finals fun and unique. Maybe 3v3 is the solution, but I think that would also make the game less interesting. I really don't know what the perfect solution could be. Maybe 5v5? I think 3v3 isn't chaotic enough, and that's where The Finals shines.
@@MatoTM I think you're right. Or 4v4 since it's all speculation at this point. I guess my thought was that this would be entirely restricted to ranked to the extent people really care about their rank being a pure expression of skill. But I trust your opinion as a high-elo player over my own. Thx again for the thought-provoking video. EDIT: Also, not to be too contrarian and tendentious, but during 2024, I cut together a few high-elo head-to-head Tournament Finals matches, and at least from a spectator's perspective, they were all exciting matches, with tension, drama, and chaos. They were not cherry-picked either (I couldn't afford to cherry-pick because there were only so many different POVs that happened to be involved in the same match). Maybe not the same for the participants though. Ironically, the lead-in according to my edit, was always the final minute or so of the play-in round, and it may have only been coincidental (sample size of 3 or 4 matches, as I recall), but they were mainly tedious in each case (teams anchoring with cashboxes or griefing opposing teams). Just for what it's worth.
Finally i found guys who understanded that mode with more than 2 teams cannot be mathematically balanced😊. Finaly someone got a thing, which i told in times when saw gameplay in OB for the first time. What a smart and mindblowing community❤
@@fokionleile7662 Big respect for the opinion. I'd probably gravitate to WT in that scenario (sorry - my original comment probably wasn't clear that I was only talking about changing ranked, not 3v3v3v3 for WT elimination rounds), but the final round of a tournament in either WT or ranked is already 3v3. Any Finals esports that I have seen to date have been 3v3. High-ELO 3v3 is not at all boring, imho, and allows for a very different development of strategy and skill. I actually doubt that it is the number of teams that most distinguishes The Finals for most people. Anyway, Embark's going to do what Embark's going to do. My impression is that a healthy and happy ranked community has a lot of downstream benefits for the game more broadly, though.
Wouldn't this be resolved by removing the ability to stack cash outs? Only just started playing, and thought it was an odd mechanic. You can't monopolise both boxes if you need to guard both vaults
Kind of, but it would cause problems for 4th place and (sometimes) 3rd place. When the last cashouts start, it might be impossible for them to win unless they somehow stole both cashouts, and at that point, it would make the last 2 minutes of the match pointless for them to play because the odds of stealing 2 cashouts and keeping them are almost zero. I wanted to come up with ideas that would allow every team a fair chance to win no matter how late in the game.
I've never liked the tournament mode and it's because of the two cashouts. Imo quick cash is superior because having only one cashout at a time means that every team is incentivized to go for it and it leads to big group fights, where on the other hand the two cashouts mean that a lot of the time one team is completely left alone while the other teams fight over a single cashout. I think if they made the ranked mode quick cash but with ranked respawn rules it would fix a lot of these problems (and it would have the advantage of making this one of the few "competitive" fps games with a ranked mode that doesn't take 30+ minutes to play a single match).
Embark needs to rework ranked matchmaking and progression. You shouldn’t lose points if you make it to second round. Additionally, you shouldn’t lose rank if you’re matched with higher ranks. Personally, I think you should only be matched with people in your current rank level. Example: if you’re Silver, you should only be matched with Silver 4 through 1. I understand it isn’t likely for this type of matchmaking to happen, but I think it’s most fair and balanced so you’re not consistently fried in matches by Platinum and higher.
We got this clown fiesta only because devs think we can’t wait 5 min in q, so they are giving us lobby with higher RS players and ruin 15 minutes of my life instead of 5 min in q. Ty, embark
I think while your team is holding a cash out , every kill while holding the cash out should add to the cash total for that cash out station. It would incentivize holding the cash out and ensure early cash boxes still give a decent amount of cash. The bonus would reset if some team steals it. Defenders get a reward for maintaining it for the duration and upsets are still possible but not as dramatic.
It’s also problematic that you can lose 800+ but only win ~300 for first
I agree with everything you're saying in the video. One more point I think Embark should consider is reducing the deducted points for losing when a teammate is AFK or rage quits.
Also unfair difficulty estimation, especially easy mathes. They're not easy. You're forced to put more effort for lesser reward and more severe punishment for being dominated
2:18 At first I was like wow ive had a game EXACTLY like this and then realized its literally me in there haha, that game was extremely frustrating and a great example of how broken ranked is
Your solution to fix cashout by forcing winners to spectate would improve the pace of the game and make it more fair but the sole idea of forcing a team to spectate while the others get to play is remarkedly unfun and drastic, removing the math game from cashout would make the game a lot more approachable indeed but also take away a lot of the surprise and capacity for unexpected situations in Cashout.
I actually like your idea of making it like the final rd where you have to get 2 to qualify/win.
I think simply having the cash out station generate money that you can extract at 30s intervals fixes a lot of the issues.
This is perfect. They then should also decrease the amount of time to steal, that way cashouts are swapped more often if not defended well enough.
True, the plug meta is egregious
Just a thought but what if they added a loser bracket in redemption of coming in 3rd
I definitely second a loser bracket, if they raised the RS for 3rd place - would be worth having.
Very game-show like
Heck yeah good idea. It could be something like: all four losing teams in the first match compete in one separate game to mitigate ranked losses, OR more interestingly allow only 1 team to qualify into the final round as a third party
This game is the most competitive game and worst one at the same time
The core is well designed and highly competitive, it's just that the little obstacles to get to that core experience need some urgent work
I agree with everything. I saw one comment here that talked about trickle in cash once you get the vault in. I think that would be good, and if someone stole it then you only get money based upon how long you hold the cash out rather then the whole thing if you get a last minute steal. Each round is different to keep it exciting. One round trickle and the next gets the full cash out or something of the sort. There needs to be incentive to hold the cash out and disincentive hard third party. Third party isn't a terrible thing when it's controlled but anytime it's better to just third party all the time to win a game or control someone else's point and let another team win then third partying has gone off the rails. It should be strictly on did you get the cashout or put in work to hold it. But one thing you didn't mention is how toxic the game is getting due to bad match making. A lot of higher rank people expect everyone to play around them or know meta and run it perfectly. It's getting on league of legends level and it's turning players away pretty fast.
Restrict parties by ensuring they queue only against parties of the same rank or one rank above/below. For example, Ruby players can only play with Diamond players, and Diamond players can only play with Platinum and Ruby players. If they are in a party of three, the MM should prioritize matching them against other parties of three in the same game. It needs to be fair, even at the cost of increasing wait times.
Playing The Finals means accepting that getting third-partied is part of the experience. Putting the current first-place team’s money at stake during the final minutes of a match would be a fair and balanced punishment if they mess up. For example: If a member of the first-place team gets killed, the team loses a percentage of their money, Killing a first-place team member would reward the rest of the players with twice the amount of money compared to regular kills, A full team wipe for the first-place team would result in a more significant penalty, costing them a larger percentage of their total money.
The math issue affects everyone because the UI isn't intuitive enough-it’s too minimalistic. Here are three changes I’d love to see: 1.- Improved Money Display: Display the total amount of money a team would have if they successfully defend or steal an active station. 2.- Enhanced Death Stats: An idea shared by vertopolkaLF on Reddit. 3.- Advanced Scoreboard: A suggestion by me. When pressing TAB+R, the normal scoreboard should switch to an alternative one that displays everyone’s specialization, entire loadout, party status, and rank. Also, solve the issue of class being hidden by a skull when a player dies.
And lastly, this game desperately needs Diminishing Returns, specifically in the form of NO DUPLICATE SPECIALIZATIONS per team. I’ve been advocating for this since Season 1, but it seems to go unnoticed. The lack of this system is the reason specializations like Mesh Shield and Healing Beam have been hit with so many consecutive nerfs due to parties excesively stacking these combinations, which ultimately leaves solo and duo players at a significant disadvantage when trying to use those. Implementing this change would bring several benefits: Stop the endless cycle of continuous nerfs (basically making the game less fun by reducing power levels), Encourage players to explore and experiment with other options, Promote teamwork and reduce abuse from 3-man parties running identical - unfair setups, Allow developers to shift focus toward creating more diverse and balanced specializations.
To address potential issues, players should have their top three preferred loadouts before queuing. Most importantly, this change should be accompanied by reverting the nerfs applied to gadgets and specializations as a result of the double- or triple-meta abuse.
So many changes so little planning, with an E-Sports event around the corner i doubt they will add anything major to the game, matter of fact i have 0 expectations for the next patches balance-wise. Too bad, so sad.
Huge agree on restricting to one spec per team. At least in ranked, this would go a long way to differentiate it from the other game modes as well.
I’ve always thought that having a system where the money from a cash out either slow trickles into your teams piggy bank or every 30 seconds you win a 1/4 portion of the cash out and the rest is up for grabs by whoever steals it. This would prevent last second steals and would reward teams for actually holding thier objectives. It would also virtually delete double stacking cash outs and in a way I like to think it would help out with third parties. Of course you would have to remove 10% on plug to make this work.
They also gotta accompany it with an rs rework losing 800rs when I’m a plat 2 in a full 45k+ tourney makes no sense to me I’m obviously a filler for this lobby so I either shouldn’t lose or I should gain like back in TA when it was a mega lopsided lobby
Great video, hopefully they address the issue of how pointless the 1st and 2nd cashouts are. You should never succesfully plug and defend two cashouts to still not make it to the next round just because someone got a last second steal on the doubled 3rd cashout. Definitely agree with making all cashouts an equal value
The finals has a balancing issue. A couple of days ago playing world tour, it was questionably hard, made it to the finals twice. A day ago, it was unreasonably hard, I couldn't even make it to the second round. I'm constantly paired with highly skilled players, very few times do I get matched with players on a reasonable level.
W thoughts, Commenting for the alg
More Elo for cash outs would definitely help the teaming problem, maybe also more Elo for beating the higher seed team
We had a ruby team grief us like this. There was a solo player who they teamed up with. And they let them steal and were literally running side by side as a 4 man team and we got sent to the lobby. Also theres a lone ruby team that every other plat and even diamond team avoid. Meaning they get everything for free and even third party. Lol as i posted this comment you mentioned the lone ruby team everyone avoids
A small change would be to make the Cashout in the knockout rounds cash out in 3 waves. Give 25% of the cash at 1/3 the time, 25% cash at 2/3 the time and 50% at the end. This would incentivize people to hold cashouts instead of 3rd partying at the end. Also eliminates the cheated feeling when your team hold the cashout for 99% of the timer, but it gets stolen last second
Theres also no draw system in quick cash(unrelated I know) so after a single cashout sometimes a light will run away with the cash box all game and even if you do manange to get another cashout in (usually its too late to get a thrid) the first team to get 10k automatically gets picked as the winners.
I know it's a bit more of a drastic change but another idea I've also had for a ranked format change is still tournament style but only with the final round style of gameplay. So would be 4 groups of 3v3 in r1 2 groups of 3v3 in r2 and then normal final round. Keep the standard tournament style in world tour but this way it's a more traditional 1 team vs 1 team format for ranked modes. This would also benefit from reducing map size by 50% or down to 33%. Could also be first to 75k (or 3 cashouts) and the section of the map rotates after each cash (players take damage if outside zone after a certain time frame.
I love new ideas like this. It would be great to try out in world tour to see how it plays out. I truly love the idea of cashouts complete contributing to elo gain bcs it feels really bad when you walk away w 0 or negative elo even tho you got 33k and the 2nd place quals by a couple kills
Personally, I really like the way cashout works right now, it gives it depth no other game can have. Making decisions to split or stack the last two cashboxes, trying to help losing teams to proceed to the next round, It alway a big thrill. On lower ranks this strategy is harder to execute and it backfires sometimes. Maybe it's unfair in terms of competitive standpoint, but I ultimately play this game for fun and I have a lot of it precisely because of these strategies
I agree that it's fun and no other game has what The Finals has. I'm just thinking how for highly competitive players this would drive them away (and it already has), and if real money is ever involved, this is a major problem. No one wants to watch an esport or any sport, for that matter, where the tournament finals consist of the best team vs. the worst team. It just doesn't make for a thrilling end. I've heard rumors of esports this year or next, and if those rumors are true, this 100% needs to be ironed out.
Cash out cannot be left in its current state. This teaming/griefing issue has made the game almost unplayable as soon as you get to around 38k+ RS
bro put me on a clip lmaoooo @6:21
Easy solution: Three teams Finals like quick cash, it's more entertaining and more aggresive. No downtime whatsoever
Most games I am facing teams who are 20,000 points higher than me and my team. Why play ranked if your gold playing Rubys and Diamonds?
Why don’t I play against low bronze and people 20,000 people lower than me?
The problem with the game is that the classes and weapons and utilities allow you to play the game your way. But then the game mode is very strict and dictates how you must play the game. Both ideas are opposing.
They should create multiple ways to get money and not base it all on the cash out. I have had many moments where I win 4 gunfights then lose the last and because of that get knocked out of the tournament.
They should give money for kills, for how long you spent protecting the cash out. Points for grabbing smaller cash out boxes only worth 500 to 1k each.
You need to be able to play the game your way.
I think it could work better to do kind of the opposite. Instead of having one team qualify early and have to wait and spectate, what if there was a way to have one team disqualified early so they can just leave. Something like you have to reach a certain cash threshold by a certain time or you’re out. I think you would still need other changes to go along with this, as it would still create the opportunity for the top team to grief out their biggest competition, but if combined with a higher wipe penalty, this would allow the second place team to take out the first place team by wiping them, so at least there could be some counterplay. I think the current meta really suffers from both the high value of plugs and the low wipe penalty, which both incentivize the behavior you’re talking about.
Definitely appreciate the video, this exact problem has kinda killed my interest in cashout this season.
they dont give you players of your level i got some high ass level players on my 4-5 round like bro im new and y'all making me delete already
Actually a good video but numb. Cause second place can just play smart and get into the last fight knowing they are Second and pick they re fights. If they actually playing random then dont even deserve the 2nd place from the start
Why not just run it like quick cash with only 1 team progressing, faster match making, with single cash outs at a time being easier for new players to understand as well
I agree with the problems, but most of the problems would be fixed if they just dont show the ranks of the players.
Really appreciate you laying out all your thoughts like that. It's a big problem for the game. Unfortunately, it is hard to see how you really eliminate the griefing, plug meta, 3rd partying and no-partying problems simultaneously (the plug meta arose in response to an attempt to reduce the frustrations with either losing cashouts to 3rd parties or sitting around while getting free cashouts as three weaker teams try to 3rd party for the other cashout, iirc). I think maybe Embark should come to grips with the fact that the 3v3v3v3 mode should be abandoned altogether. The problem is probably economics. I don't know for sure, but I bet 3v3v3v3 saves on server costs. But if it's at the expense of the long-term health of the game, then what's the point of economizing? 3v3v3 is fun for wild casual play, but the big complaints around 3rd partying come back big time if RS is at stake. Ultimately, going to 3v3, perhaps exclusively, seems like the only way to make everything clear cut. Definitely worth Embark experimenting with your ideas, but my suspicion and concern is that players will learn to game any complicated system in uncool ways.
I think Embark has realized 3v3v3v3 doesn't work, and that's why we got Terminal Attack ranked for a season. Unfortunately, that game mode doesn't do a great job of showcasing what makes The Finals fun and unique. Maybe 3v3 is the solution, but I think that would also make the game less interesting.
I really don't know what the perfect solution could be. Maybe 5v5? I think 3v3 isn't chaotic enough, and that's where The Finals shines.
@@MatoTM I think you're right. Or 4v4 since it's all speculation at this point. I guess my thought was that this would be entirely restricted to ranked to the extent people really care about their rank being a pure expression of skill. But I trust your opinion as a high-elo player over my own. Thx again for the thought-provoking video.
EDIT: Also, not to be too contrarian and tendentious, but during 2024, I cut together a few high-elo head-to-head Tournament Finals matches, and at least from a spectator's perspective, they were all exciting matches, with tension, drama, and chaos. They were not cherry-picked either (I couldn't afford to cherry-pick because there were only so many different POVs that happened to be involved in the same match). Maybe not the same for the participants though. Ironically, the lead-in according to my edit, was always the final minute or so of the play-in round, and it may have only been coincidental (sample size of 3 or 4 matches, as I recall), but they were mainly tedious in each case (teams anchoring with cashboxes or griefing opposing teams). Just for what it's worth.
Finally i found guys who understanded that mode with more than 2 teams cannot be mathematically balanced😊. Finaly someone got a thing, which i told in times when saw gameplay in OB for the first time. What a smart and mindblowing community❤
and then the finals becomes another 1 team vs the other shooter.
@@fokionleile7662 Big respect for the opinion. I'd probably gravitate to WT in that scenario (sorry - my original comment probably wasn't clear that I was only talking about changing ranked, not 3v3v3v3 for WT elimination rounds), but the final round of a tournament in either WT or ranked is already 3v3. Any Finals esports that I have seen to date have been 3v3. High-ELO 3v3 is not at all boring, imho, and allows for a very different development of strategy and skill. I actually doubt that it is the number of teams that most distinguishes The Finals for most people. Anyway, Embark's going to do what Embark's going to do. My impression is that a healthy and happy ranked community has a lot of downstream benefits for the game more broadly, though.
Nah as a second best team u gotta face 2 teams and then when u wipe em both and then the top decides to join last second and wipe ur team
Wouldn't this be resolved by removing the ability to stack cash outs? Only just started playing, and thought it was an odd mechanic. You can't monopolise both boxes if you need to guard both vaults
Kind of, but it would cause problems for 4th place and (sometimes) 3rd place. When the last cashouts start, it might be impossible for them to win unless they somehow stole both cashouts, and at that point, it would make the last 2 minutes of the match pointless for them to play because the odds of stealing 2 cashouts and keeping them are almost zero.
I wanted to come up with ideas that would allow every team a fair chance to win no matter how late in the game.
6:13 heavy got sucked by a black hole lmao
Nice one mate. Send this to Embark - Devs are sensible.
-33% if your team is wiped
Ban Cheaters definitely
3:40 Basically plug meta ruins the game for everyone
This is the intended scenario. No need to fix anything.
Lmao horrible take
I've never liked the tournament mode and it's because of the two cashouts. Imo quick cash is superior because having only one cashout at a time means that every team is incentivized to go for it and it leads to big group fights, where on the other hand the two cashouts mean that a lot of the time one team is completely left alone while the other teams fight over a single cashout. I think if they made the ranked mode quick cash but with ranked respawn rules it would fix a lot of these problems (and it would have the advantage of making this one of the few "competitive" fps games with a ranked mode that doesn't take 30+ minutes to play a single match).
Gross I hate only a single cash out. That would ruin it completely imo. Quick cash is gross.
Toxicity is getting huge. Can’t play without reading 12 yrs old talking/writing rude stuff. 😢
Just block them and report, u allow to do it
Embark needs to rework ranked matchmaking and progression. You shouldn’t lose points if you make it to second round. Additionally, you shouldn’t lose rank if you’re matched with higher ranks. Personally, I think you should only be matched with people in your current rank level. Example: if you’re Silver, you should only be matched with Silver 4 through 1. I understand it isn’t likely for this type of matchmaking to happen, but I think it’s most fair and balanced so you’re not consistently fried in matches by Platinum and higher.
We got this clown fiesta only because devs think we can’t wait 5 min in q, so they are giving us lobby with higher RS players and ruin 15 minutes of my life instead of 5 min in q. Ty, embark