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- Опубліковано 21 жов 2024
- Installing and using the Small Device C Compiler (SDCC) for the 3 cent Padauk microcontroller and programming a chip using the Free PDK open source programmer.
Part 4 of 5 in this video series.
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#SDCC #C # Compiler
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I appreciate what you're doing, but I can't help thinking about the ATTiny10 in its SOT23-6 package, complete with 10 bit ADC, supported by AVR GCC, with 2K flash, available in single quantities for 0.33 USD. Is it worth the trouble?
Depends on your product costs. If you sell 100 devices each for 20 bucks, it's too much trouble. But if you sell 10000 of them, you would save $2700.
If you sell $2 products, it has a big impact.
In low volume I would always prefer a well known device.
@@Momchil0 That's not fair, "it depends" is always the right answer in engineering!
No one including myself is saying that a 3 cent micro is going to change anything in the hobby world, or other small or medium production runs where the difference between a 30c or 3c micro is a fraction of the overall BOM cost. But for niche application where it IS important then the 3c micro could be a killer.
Having open source software and hardware is always good for the maker community; plus there's nothing wrong with having more options
@Robert Slackware Actually the AGC had 2048 16 bit word of RAM (magnetic core Memory) and 36,864 words ROM (core rope memory) And one AGC was in the command module and one in the Lunar lander. Not much but more than 2k. depending on if your measuring bits or bytes. Converted to bits that's 32k bits of RAM, to bytes that is 4 K bytes.
I've always wanted to see something going through all the steps of building a project like this, really informative! These vids might not have the best immediate response but in the long run I think it will really help people like me looking for a real world account of what to expect when following open-source designs.
You're probably right. These long running videos that don't get the instant response like the mailbag videos... In the long run, it will have a big impact on others that need that information later. Scott manleys ksp videos are still helping me a lot even though some of them are 5 years old. Can't measure the worth of these videos after 3 days. Unfortunately when it comes to worth of these, monetization isn't the right metric I think.
I went thru the same process two months ago with SDCC, now I am loading binaries from a Compact Flash card or serial port to my Z80 computer :) great video!
When I started programming we weren't allowed syntax highlighting because the fluorescent ink weakened the punch cards...
When I was a boy...
This one of my favorite video series of yours. I can't tell you how much it means for "young players" to watch even their EE heroes slip up with the little stuff some times. The single most important thing is perseverance and you're exemplifying that in this video series. Thank you Dave.
Really appreciate your contribution in making ultra cheap microcontrollers available to public. Dave, I've been watching your channel for I don't know how many years and honestly it is one of the best content on youtube.
I definitely like the long comprehensive versions
Yes but view-wise he only has 10'000 views here... a lot less than a usual video.
One mistake I noticed: at 34:34 , you said "as we saw before, we used ~900 bytes for the Hello World"... but that's 900 bytes of intel HEX format, where every byte of actual code is represented as 2 bytes of hex, plus extra line breaks and addressing info, etc, etc. So the actual hello world program is only used at most ~450 bytes.
Yep, brain fart.
TheHue's SciTech: 14 bit words, should be counting words not bytes I would think. Intel hex uses 2 bytes per word?
I'm surprised that the programmer software doesn't report stats like that by default.
Klave signed integers. Do try and keep up.
I just checked that CodeBlocks can be used as IDE for SDCC and autodetects the compiler and its options for the different MCUs and MPUs :)
Congratulations Dave. I've had a lot of fun...
My first experience with Microchip OTP micros was in 1999 ... those wonderful years.
While this isn't your most successful series it's one of my favourites, showing your full learning process can really help the new players like myself see what learning is:
Learning one little part of the larger chain, forgetting it, learning it again, and internalising it for your future endeavors.
What really sunk it in for me is seeing you learn the little lessons I've learned along the way while also knowing bits I've yet to learn.
So thank you Dave for showing me that I am doing something right even if it all feels like a herculean feat
For the IDE, use Visual Studio Code. You can easily integrate different C standards "parsers" (intellisense) and then invoke custom commands for build (they're called tasks there).
For anyone having a look now, PlatformIO supports the sdcc target (with Padauk targets). Which gives you a much nicer development/build environment.
*sits watching Dave trying to write to a folder that’s protected by default in Windows* Eventually he’s going to work this out...
Chris Crowther can't delete System32? Must not be logged in as Admin. Log in as Admin, delete the bastard and keep on trucking.
it feels so good to see that i'm not the only engineer that does things like you - attack a problem without having much clue, find your way through it, hit some walls but get it done at the end - brilliant! :-)
Really liking this series, excited to see the result!
It's interesting, I love your content not in small part because you include all failed diagnostic paths, in electronics this is of huge value to me, but when you step into software, my professional domain, this becomes very frustrating =) Obviously continue doing so please in both worlds, just thought it was a curious psychological effect.
Always use »puts ("Hello world")« with constant strings (i.e. strings without interpolation directives like »%« or »\…«).
It uses a tiny fraction of printf()'s memory footprint, and the end-of-line character is appended automatically.
Cheers!
Thanks for the horror flashbacks many of us will recognise. The more options there are the more confusing it gets, and the harder it is too remember in six months time.
Well done for making this warts-and-all series that shows some of the pitfalls rather than only presenting a sterilised version.
Chris Robinson sanitized*
Welcome to my world Dave, software! You can use Notepad++ to automate the compile, link and assembly without touching the command line (although good on ya for tackling it!) using the NppExec plug-in. Only 2KB eh? Guess my skills learned as a kid programming games in 3.5KB on the old Commodore Vic-20 might come in handy! :-) Enjoying the series!
Didn't know Notepad++ can script, will have the check it out, thanks.
@@EEVblog Don't script in Notepad++, script in make/cmake. That way great many people would understand your scriptures. Not only Notepad++ people. :)
Watching this series of videos I'm reminded of the expression 'We can't afford to use free tools'. In this case the 3 cent chip is absolutely a great value if one needs to mill out tens of thousands of a product using it (e.g. greeting cards with audio?). For anything with a smaller unit run even up to the thousand units look like the time taken to get all of this right might be offset by the difficulty in getting all of this to work.
You always learn more when you make mistakes. Almost as much when Dave makes the mistakes.
Thanks Dave, I definitely prefer this over a polished video any day.
TheMotoRebel life-spoiler alert
"CODE :: BLOCKS" might be a great IDE for SDCC, and it is multi-platform.
Nice to see the struggling. Keep going !
Heh, Ten years ago, when I decided to start electronics as a hobby the first task of cause was to build MC programmer. (LPT based avr programmer).
It was built on protoboard with a lot of solder and wires, and of cause it didn't work once I turned it on. Only after careful inspection I found one single joint which I forgot. After I'd fixed that, it started to work. Probably I was as happy as Dave at that moment.
SignallerK relative to Dave would you say that you were:
1) as Happy as
2) almost as Happy
3) somewhat less Happy
4) happier than
5) much happier than
6) not at all Happy as
Dave?
@@HighestRank thanks. Corrected.
The sfr special func registers, in the C code, are they setting up the memory map? I would expect them to be hidden in a #include
Well, sometimes in early stages of getting used to architecture/toolchain/whatever it is actually preferable to see the whole thing that goes into compiler. Just to be sure. Because often that PFS173.h includes another, more generic PFS.h that is parameterized with some defines, etc etc. Eventually one has to use mighty -E compiler switch to be 100% sure what is compiled and what is not.
I built one of those RC2014 Z80 computers the other week, that's got a Z80 on it. Once I've finished playing around with CP/M, I might try writing some bare code for it using SDCC :)
Hey Dave I know you weren't keen on the results of this video series so far, but just let me say... I've skimmed the videos so far and will come back for a deeper learning run through in future i.e. I think these videos might do really well over time? (a grower not a shower? :D)
I'm glad Dave pointed out that use of printf() can pull in a rather large library. A good experiment would be to change the printf call to puts and see what difference (if any) it makes in the size of the file to be sent to the Padauk micro.
In this case it seems pretty small, but with only 2k it could be a killer.
It's cool what *cheap things* will motivate people to do.
Just a comment on your hunt for an IDE. There might be some ways to pull it into the platformio ecosystem, which has good support in VS code for example, for a more "IDE" experience. Not sure that platformio has all the glue needed to properly connect to the SDCC stuff and do this trick yet, but it might be a fun rabbit hole for someone so inclined..
I'm coding for an embedded platform (my username says which one) where the most used C devkit was using an absolutely ancient version of SDCC, from 2002. Partially because of this, people have always recommended coding in asm, and consequently no one ported a new version of SDCC to the devkit until fairly recently.
Nice cliffhanger!
I really need to get some of those SOIC->DIP adapters. My TL866 didn't come with them. Off to eBay!!
There was Pong game for PIC16C84.
Composite out with sound in 1K of memory!
SDCC works nicely with Code::Blocks IDE. I ported a few projects from other PIC compilers (MCC18/XC8, HiTech) to SDCC. Debugging is not as easy, but who needs debugger anyway. 😉
my guess is that you are running it on windows instead of on the chip, and OS's abstract away their address space so it throws warnings such as 'cast of literal value to generic pointer' but you can as you did just ignore or disable that warning.
Aw man, don't leave us at a cliffhanger!
Cliff hanger!!!!!!! Nice series.
33:03 I bet it was that resistor, as somebody pointed out in comments under the previous video ))
Have you tried using the up arrow a few times so you get your previous command lines. Might fix a few typos.
Ah, a few retries later you used the up arrow. Forgotten how to use DOS?
I had not updated free license in Cosmic. I did id for 3 times. So, there are no alternative :SDCC or assembly. Other products are paid. I treid making simple "LED blinking" program - I flashed it into MCU it worked well. But what will I do when software becomes more complex? How to debug it? Maybe with the USART?
Padauk: STONKS
__asm ... __endasm; was used to inline assembly code. 'engint' probably is enable global interrupt.
Hi Dave, error 4 was a dead giveaway of the actual problem. If you'd type 'net helpmsg 4': "The system cannot open the file."
need to change that notepad++ to dark theme 👌🏻
Which theme do you prefer? Many of them have black on dark blue background (vhdl files) .. I suppose I could customize, but I'd like to know which you would use :)
bwack VT100 green phosphor.
Definitively will build and try this now after these videos, wasn't worth it for me before with their closed systems.
I'm enjoying the content. I'm still bemused that people put a lot of effort into hobbyist tools for OTP parts in 2020.
Fyfoh's Lab 1TP*
That picture of the moon passing in front of the earth in the thumbnail makes me laugh every time I see it. It looks so fake it's funny.
Ed Lomonaco to imagine that an oblique angle wouldn't cast a single shadow is somewhat absurd.
I’m a hw guy and all of this “trial and error” sw stuff drives me nuts!!!
What about Code::Blocks 16.02, you could try SDCC -80C51 test.c
When easypdkprog said "Nothing found", I thought this all makes sense at last: 3 cents, no numbers, no die inside. )
I have the same error when using ‘easypdkprog probe’. It simply says no programmer found but in ‘system information’ (I’m using macOS) the programmer is shown as ‘Easy PDK Programmer’ correctly.
Don’t know what’s the problem. I have 2 programmers here and none of them works
This video should be called: The Recompile Saga.
sdcc wars the compiler strikes back
urugulu Part 3:At No Hope
man, even here I get cliffhangers T-T
Loving the videos o/
thank you M.r
Did you know that SDCC binary literally lists every option it supports?)
Umm, yeah, you use the help command as I showed.
Noo that cliffhanger.. When will there be the next Part of the Video dave..?
Hey Dave
I don't know if you noticed it but you can watch the video from the playlist you created even thow if you aren't a patron
Yes I know, it's a "feature" in UA-cam.
Previous video and this, endless struggles with Windows issues - previous video: "If you are on Linux or Mac you are on your own" :)
The 90s called and want their compiler back! Sorry, but no one outside of a museum should use SDCC.
"you might not see it for a couple of weeks" well. yep :P
dumle29 time code? Quotation marks?
I have never used sdcc but most such tools would allow you to do -c mumble.c -o mumble.ihx in a single step
Create a 'board' for the Arduino IDE? winna winna, chiken dinner!
‘shield’*
Watching you run those three commands to build every time got on my nerves lol, that's the kind of thing that takes half a minute to script into a single command
Windows user mentality.
waiting for Dave to put the osci on it...Coitus interruptus
Do we not say clock block any more?
well - I guess this 1-8 is just junk - but 0x55AA is the signature for a classic master boot record ...
I bet the invested time is not included in the 3 cents...
Windows command line. Typing without auto completion / tab completion like it's 1990. This would instantly drive me nuts, not being able to tab complete that long program name like in zsh, and instead having to type the whole into cmd.
@@Okurka. OH, does it? Even arguments for the command line tools? I don't think so.
@@musashi939 well praise the penguin gods for the masterrace OS... glad to have that stuff around.
@@urugulu1656 I'm sorry, but are you seriously getting salty, because I shot down your rushed pebkac? How childish... Bye
HolYsHIT, so that's why zsh always is fucking with my TAB key? I hit TAB twice and thought Linux had lost its mind.
If you want to do this project ask first for stock availability of parts! Otherwise you will end up paying the same money as the padauk programmer and simulator....
I have been exposed to an ez80 processor recently as it's the processor in my Ti calculator, which I played around with recently.
Teach you right to wear a proper mask, and pace off at the good distance.
Ms51PC0AE is available ?
That's sad, elsoft engeenier has no clue what fopen (call) fail means...
maricomovies me has no clue which 'engeenier' has "elsoft" as its modifier.
@@HighestRank It's simple. Experienced in electronic and software engineer = elsoft engineer. Just shortcut.
Who would buy a three-cent mcu when they can emulate the VHDL on a $1000 computer?
someone who isnt feeling like wating hundreds of ics during the stages of development
urugulu Sorry, you lost me at "wating hundreds of ics".
@@HighestRank I assume is is supposed to be "wasting", not "wating". But I think the answer to the original comment is that this series is about showing the process of using an unfamiliar product, not showing that this is the most efficient and cost effective development method.
Jeff Ratliff yet even with the typo corrected, it still doesn’t make logical sense. A person who’s using a 1000$ PC IMO is the SAME PERSON who feels like ‘not wasting hundreds of ICs’.
@@HighestRank first of the grammar police can STFU typing is hard ok... 2nd the 1000$ pc you most likely have anyway not to mention that even an older less expensive machine will do just fine since all it has to do is upload some code to a fpga ... by the way you most likely do a lot if other stuff with that machine.
Despite the viewer count, this has, at least me pinned :) thanks
If you want all the IDE blah blah you could use the toolchain with Eclipse C/C++ that would give you all the scripting stuff you require, ive done it with stm32 compilers Linaro ones among others and integrated gdb also. Obviously your mileage is going to vary with what is available in the toolchain/tools you have in sdcc.
Maybe UA-cam thinks there is no money to be made on $0.03 micros
Im suprised nobody has written a python or powershell gui for this whole collection of software
because every selfrespecting programmer isnt really intimidated with using the command line.
@@urugulu1656 yea me and command lines dont go together very well. It always ends up in a big mess.
I tried to get the keil compiler to work from the command line so i could use vs code as its just better but in the end i got so mad i just used the gui as i knew it worked.
@@karsnoordhuis4351 keil ? i use that as well and just set up vim as an external editor...
that being said i have it open still just for compile and upload and setting breakpoints in debugging. then close every file switch over to vim and do my business... (prevents me from having to do the file was externally changed wanna reload dialog everytime)
@@karsnoordhuis4351 fun fact the gui has some features that are broken, not working correctly or with the expected behavior and some of the registers in the debugging are misnamed when compared to what the datasheet says.
sad that this actually costs money to get a licence for.
Dave: Will it work....
Me: He’s gonna cut there isn’t he...
Dave... Were finally there...
Me: Yup, he’s gonna cut it there...
Dave... Almost...
Me: 😩
I'm an ME wishing I had your EE skills. Or at least a fraction of them.
InTnMnNmAz that's why men get married, not all of them can cook.
It doesn’t have an IDE. You say that like it’s a bad thing
Haha printf, programming memory. I ran into this, naively thinking hmmmm I need sprintf here... Trying to compile this, bang not enough memory on the chip. Lol. Ok gotta get by without that.
I think the sensible thing to do in this situation is to define a conditional C macro for all your printf() and/or sprintf() based logging and have that compiled out for the actual micro. Then do all your development and testing on some emulator or dev board or whatever. Which supports a larger memory. Then the issue is how faithfully you can emulate / simulate. But such development tools are really essential for a decent experience programming these things.
Teach me how to design a camera circuit
ua-cam.com/video/RoOqznZUClI/v-deo.html
You are not a serious developer until you use git to track the source, bash as command line even on windows, don't use pre-build/post-build bash scripts to generate an include file which contains the git commit ID going to be built into the binary. 😉
Really, overly bloated IDEs only good for starting up, once your project starts getting serious, you want to automate things and make the build/deployment process as clean as possible.
and vim as an editor even if there is an editor right in your ide
Github hides releases for some reason, just add /releases
there used to be a button in the head bar somewhere...
👍
IDE = Integrated Debugging Environment. Dave, you would know better if you were real.
Don't feed the pc trolls
yagoa feed them what? 'Political Correctness'?
painful to watch ;)
Anything exclusively from China is a waste of time and dangerously likely sourcing will collapse soon.
This pandemic has made the China sourcing a risky and unnecessary direction now.
I predict sourcing from the USA will become more popular.