Intel's weapon against motherboard companies... will it work?
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- Опубліковано 18 жов 2024
- As you can imagine, everyone is pretty concerned about the next generation of Intel CPUs given the way things turned out for 13th and 14th gen CPUs... so what is Intel doing to keep this from happening again?! Let's talk about DLVR...
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You also didnt mention that even at the 125w profile due to microcode errors it caused the voltage to shoot up to over 1.6v . It was not just the board vendors. Intels own voltage curve was borked.
Intel reps somehow gaslit you into believing it was the motherboard vendors only.
Those of us who are wise to which channels to follow know that it was the microcode asking for all the power and the motherboard says, okay I'll give it to you.
actually, jayz found the motherboard vendor doing bad stuff like 2 years ago, hence why he mention all of this in this angle, but indeed, intel also did an oopsie here.
This whole mess was because Intel deliberately unshackled the built-in CPU safety limits, and in doing so, they literally encouraged motherboard vendors to overclock the CPU beyond the safety limits. This was never a motherboard manufacturer problem. Intel gambled and lost.
Indeed - this was a bug in the microcode where the CPU would request an unhealthy voltage, and the motherboard BIOS would happily give it. Intel have identified *most* of the causes for the microcode bug, but the BIOS should never have allowed it through anyway, and that doorway is firmly closed from now on (as always, never trust what companies say, let's wait for independent testing)
@@ChrisM541 Yes, they should definitely have tied down the motherboard manufacturers and enforced stock profiles. I agree that it's Intel's fault, but the motherboard manufacturers should also have been better behaved. Everyone was chasing AMD at that point, and Intel should have just acknowledged defeat and not pushed so hard
Who else watched the screen saver?
Stop drinking.
@@ernies8828 Drinking what?
ME
its a wallpaper from wallpaper engine
id love to have it since it looks pretty neat
I thought you were talking about the show with Leo Laporte and Patrick Norton.
Intel lost me when they started doing "generations" that were more like facelifts and you also needed new motherboards like every other "generation". That and their pricing taking advantage of there being little competition, to me that just showed greed - something illustrated that when AMD was competitive again Intel lowered their prices 40-50% and pushed OEM in all sort of ways to keep AMD out (look up Intel anti-trust fines).
The recent quality issues and frankly them doing all sorts to up core count, using extreme amounts of power and so, to try and look good on the boxes rather than really delivering has not made me consider Intel again.
Intel is a sick giant gorilla and those should be put to sleep.
every company does that. what do you think the games that are exclusive to Playstation or XBox are?
I dislike the narrative that the motherboard vendors were the only problem. The 13th and 14th gen CPUs have a voltage table and Intel pushed the 1 and 2 core values too high in microcode. All so they could have reviews with improved gaming benchmarks.
This is all good, but def important to remember motherboard companies were doing whatever for decades and we almost never had these issues. This was still on Intel at the end of the chain of failure. Just want to mention that so the buck doesn't get passed too much.
Don't let Intel gaslight us into thinking this was just a "motherboard vendor problem."
Intel owns the engineering of the CPUs and how much power they let them draw.
Board vendors wouldn't have been incentivized to compete in ways that led to burning up and destabilizing CPUs if Intel hadn't enabled them to do so in ways that incentivized that kind of dangerous envelope-pushing. "More stringent motherboard oversight" is all well and good, but Intel put board partners in that position in the first place. Don't let them off the hook.
This.
Intels own designers admitted their ICC/Ringbus was at limit and could not support any more e-cores or voltage/heat. 13/14th gen literally did that which is how they were able to rush them out so fast.
Nah, Jay. Mobo venders were A problem, but the real issue is Intel’s own microcode allowed their CPU’s to ask for voltages that excessive to begin with.
Corpo spent weeks concocting funny power mode graphs, pointing fingers and covering their faults up, and it worked on you. Everyone is to blame, but it’s MOSTLY Intel here.
It's both that is what I heard. It's Intel's fault they let it happen and need to fix it sooner than later. If you use to much V you will kill it sooner than later. True for all processors.
Yeah and then the mobo vendors made biosrd/motherboard that just happily provided it. This shouldn't happen unless you as a user chose so in the bios
That and the ICC/Ringbus for 13/14th gen is the exact same one from 12th gen and per the Designers of 12th gen "ICC/Ringbus is already maxed out". 13/14th gen = 12th gen with extra e-cores and higher voltages/wattages. I wonder why that's a problem??
ok, whatever you say, GayMD fanboy
This iFix it ad is still hilarious... The minnow!
*Ding!*
EVEN MORE EXPLOSIONS!
Is it?
reminds me of mr torgue
other than the inventory line
It’s funny how Intel never had a problem with motherboard manufacturers increasing the power profiles for years because it helped them sell their CPU’s at unrealistic performance numbers. This is not a motherboard manufacturer issue, it has always been an Intel issue.
No... It's a motherboard manufacturer issue. I've modified the default ASUS startup options to what Intel wants when I first bought it a year ago, my computer stopped crashing.
@@HyperionZero congrats however intel could have mandated those changes but they chose not to, because it helped them sell their faulty product.
@HyperionZero Intel purposefully withheld power limit specs, so the motherboard manufacturers had it reference the microcode for power. Which then said use all of it, beyond safety limits.
Intel problem when amd has the exact same. You amd fanboys are crazy
@@XirpzyAMD had that problem with _one_ CPU model and _one_ motherboard vendor. Intel has this model with _all_ motherboard vendors and _every CPU model that consumes over 65W._ Sounds like the problems were actually quite different if you ask me.
Bullshit, this is all on Intel and not the board partners.
The MBs should not have provided that power. Not unless the user chose so in the BIOS.
Exactly. The cpu's having oxyidization issues is totally on Intel. Not telling the motherboard companies the proper voltages......that they couldn't even figure out is on Intel. It all comes back to Intel shitting the bed
Wait, so Intel is still blaming board partners.... Awesome. 🙄
They were part of the problem yes but Intel was the main problem
What part of the microcode updates did you not hear about? They know there was a problem. They've done things on their end to fix it. The vendors are absolutely still part of the problem.
Jay's shown it before on the channel.
Its 100 percent boardpartner. On my 11700k i can go as high as i want with vcore. So if the motherboard manufacturer decides to put some high voltage in, he can do it. Thats what they will stop with arrow lake.
@@Met1900 It's 100% Intel's fault for taking the 12th gen chip, adding more e-cores/voltage/wattage and rushing it out when their own designers said it would fail.
@@jabronilifestyle what are you talking about? You can kill any CPU if you give to mutch voltage.
I was always told that a device "draws" as much power as it needs, it's not "fed" power. If I plug a 240W power cord into my laptop, it will not shoot 240W into the laptop if the laptop doesn't need anything above 60W.
CPUs should just shut down when power exceeds safe settings, the same way connectors on motherboards now are not symmetrical so they can be plugged backwards. This is 100% an oversight and almost a manufacturing fault.
100% correct. Intel unshackled the built-in CPU safety limits, limits that are designed to combat unsafe overclocking/BIOS settings. Intel gambled and lost. Intel now wants to (wrongly) blame MB vendors. In the end, this is Intel's fault...and only Intel.
@Juralbis, what about power spikes when the voltage gets over 5% or more fed to your home equipment?
Same thing and worse goes for electronics. These would not have been issue if the recommended voltages were followed, but they did open the gates, *pun* and what did happen. To use another analogy, if you feed a CAR what is it called again nitro, it will boost power, you feed it that much for too long you blow up your engine lol. In this care what your threw in here doesn't go as an comparison. know your stuff lol 😎🤛
@@NAMOR5000Every part of the system is usually specifically designed to avoid failure due to voltage spikes, not just the mobo. Iirc, GPUs and CPU sockets have built-in capacitors to soak up the extra power if it's coming in way too fast, which will break the current flow when overloaded. Truth is, the voltages given were within the CPU's safety spec.
@@NAMOR5000 Voltage is a different beast than current, even if they are directly related to each other. Current is NOT fed, as the OP said, but voltage is. The device uses as much as it uses as far as current is concerned, and voltage is regulated according to several factors. As far as what Intel recommended, they obfuscated it enough that there wasn't a fully understood standard. For instance, when I choose a component part for a circuit I'm designing, I look at the datasheet and it will list directly in a spreadsheet table exactly what the current and voltage limits are (say for a microcontroller it's minimum 3.1v and 250mA while the max is 3.5v and 650mA. I cannot control the current pulled by the microcontroller, and I regulate the voltage because it says I should not go over 3.5v). However, with this being a 2 sided issue, the cpu can request a voltage variable, and the motherboard can give it a variable voltage. Had Intel gave datasheet specs that said MAX INPUT VOLTAGE 1.6V, then the motherboard manufacturers would have put that software defined limit in place. Intel also apparently didn't put that software defined limit into the cpu, thus the issue. It was an issue on both sides, and Intel tried to throw everybody else under the bus, without acknowledging that it was their problem first.
Edit: addition, let's put it into similar terms with a vehicle. The engine and ECM would be the processor. The fuel pump and various other systems would be the motherboard and the rest of the pc. The fuel pump (voltage delivery) does have it's own hard limits, but control is by the ECM and calculations it uses based on information it received from the various sensors (like oxygen sensors). If the calculations in the ECM (microcode) are off, or can be thrown into a runaway situation, the ECM will tell the fuel pump to send more or less fuel because the engine needs it, even though it actually doesn't, and cause either running issues, or the engine to self destruct. The fuel pump itself can be specified to only deliver a maximum of so much fuel it can throughput, but again, final control is by the ECM and if the ECM is telling it to give the engine all this fuel or not enough fuel, there's not much the pump can do but listen to the ECM until it's own minimums or maximums are reached.
It has more to do with the bus clock than the CPU.
When you increase the voltage to a timing crystal it outputs a higher frequency (increased timing). The increased power consumption of the CPU is a result of increased operating frequencies resulting from a clock speed increase from increased voltage.
Intel had years, decades, massive budgets to know the heat and environment that degrades and crashes silicon. Over voltage to a breaking point should never happen by itself in a game, server, extra. Hope they learn a hard lesson, its hard to develop a system yet you feel the idiot level is still too high with them. They need to slow down and support there products over a longer period and rebuild trust. If your rig and server are running for years on end and you perceive the value then your next build will be what ever served the intended purpose. Intel just does not have that right now.
Intel has to proove themselfs to regain trust, before we build systems again with these SKUs. Although a lot of clients asking for Intel, but we cannot recommend Intel at this time. We has RMAs elevated end 2023. And we had to replace motherboards and CPUs. And all our systems are high end all with custom loops. So in manhours that's a lot of money. And no one can garantee we get our extra money back.
I’m having a difficult time believing it is the motherboards fault. As an Agronomist I can tell you that regardless of my nutrient inputs, the plant will only utilize what it requires for growth and sustainability. Huge oversight on Intel’s part if they DID NOT have protections in place to stop over-volting from occurring. I’m gonna have to call BS on this one. Intel allowed over-voltage in order to keep up with AMD. There is no doubt in my mind that this is what occurred. And now……….they attempt to save face by blaming motherboard manufacturers for what is clearly their fault. I just don’t buy it.
Agreed, specially to keep up with AMD, they were sacrificing thermals and eventually their CPUs for a bit of extra performance.
That's because you're making dumb assumptions. They didn't say it was ALL the vendor's fault. They said they were part of the equation.
Jay has shown this before on the channel.
They worked on their end of things by sending down all the recent microcode updates.
@@Theopheus Easy with the insults there princess.
amd have had same issues aswell, degradation from single core boost. Happened to my zen2 cpu.
Didn't hit critical mass I guess but it was widespread and known issue for any1 "in the know"
It's a basic lesson that should be spread wide, shut of single core boost. Only extreme oc people looking for leaderboard scores should bother with such things.
the gains are insignificant, but reviewers gotta press that single core button in cinebench even though it means nothing.
@@Theopheuscan not an assumption be reasonable based on by not having all the information. Being an assumption does not make it “dumb” you owe an apology
At least 2-3 generations before I even look at Intel again.. Luckily, I have the 7800X3D and really don't need more for the foreseeable future.
Lucky I missed out by getting the motherboard first instead of the cpu before they stopped production
I have a 5800x3d and don't plan on upgrading away from it for like 10 years or so unless something like Citiews Skylines 3 or another simulator forces me to
As a 13th gen sufferer, I'll never trust Intel again.
To me the issue is just the default. I put a 13700k in a new mobo and noticed a lot of thermal throttling. I thought i did something wrong with my AIO. A long rabbit hole for someone who didn't realize the default unlimited power settings were not good.
I always stuck with Intel. I am very disappointed with their reaction to this issue. It makes me doubt them. I will wait to purchase anything until they have handled this problem.
There is no real difference between AMD and Intel beyond manufacturing methods and how they deal with the memory controllers. x86 is x86 is x86.
@@TurboLoveTrain and the fact that amd can support 8+ years a single socket
Amd isn’t any better with the quitting production of the 7800x3d to purposely increase 9000 sales and make it only available for 700 bucks.
@@nexuqk
That has more to do with market strategy than anything else. Ironically the most stable systems are usually the ones they aren't pushing updates to anymore.
The warmer room temps of those e-cafe's may play a role, but humidity only matters if you're using evaporative cooling with water, which I've not seen in the wild, and certainly wouldn't expect in an e-cafe.
Humid air's thermal capacity is significantly higher than dry air. It's why deserts get cold so quickly at night. A humid cafe may run warmer, but that warm will be a more stable temperature since it takes more energy to move the temp up or down a degree.
I doubt it matters for their testing. This would be a concern when testing heatsink coolers
@@meeponinthbit3466 The thermal capacity of humid air isn't substantially higher. Aside from the effect on cloud formation it has very little to do with deserts getting cold at night, that is a matter of black-body radiation which is mainly controlled by clouds and dust/haze.
From extremes of 9% and 90% relative humidity the specific heat capacity increases about 8% (7% at 40⁰c and 11% at 10⁰c, down to 0.5% at 1⁰c) meaning high humidity air will convect away slightly more heat compared to dry air.
Water vapor is also somewhat more conductive than dry air due to the higher mean speed of the lower mass gas particles, but this is only significant at extremely warm temperatures or high altitudes due to the low vapor pressure of water relative to standard atmosphere.
So is Intel making an actual "spec" now and ditching their impossible to follow "guidelines"?
(Edit) Nope, sounds like they're making more work for themselves, to not admit fault, by spending resources to control mobo vendors instead of just fixing their convoluted and contradictory "power profiles".
they're basically doing what AMD already does but putting a flashy branding name on it to sell it as a "feature" to consumers.. AMD already hardlocks vendors out of modifying AMD's default settings since day 1 of ryzen. the only way they can adjust it is with the reported voltage at a controller level.
@@sirmonkey1985 AMD, because of the superior device process they are using, could operate similarly at about half the power of Intel. Intel depended on their genius to push inferior processes as far as it could go...and beyond. That's the fundamental issue.
WHO SPONSOR BLOCKED THE IFIXIT AD
Ads? I haven't seen one for over a decade
Sounds like the partners are being blamed once again.... how are any of us supposed to trust them when they just can not seem to take responsibility? Mui Loco
Jay I know you most likely won't see this comment. But I wanted to say thank you for these talking head videos. Unlike Steve, Ltt, and other content witch I enjoy. Unlike those content creators you make computer, and pc subjects more approachable, and easily understandable to the regular people who know little about the pc I just built for them. I use your talking head videos to explain subjects in the mainstream, and or talked about situations regarding pc. This was also entertaining for those that know more.🤓
Keep doing you sir. We will keep watching it 👍
This year's CPU launches are certainly shaping up to be the worst in the past 8 years. If only I didn't "need" to upgrade. Guess it'll be 9800X3D now that Intel has truly dropped the ball.
And I’m thinking just going with arrow lake as amd is being shady as well by stopping 7800x3d production to increase 9000 sales.
@@remsterx Not really shady when 9000 is equal [or better] in every aspect including price.
I can't believe you're blaming the motherboard vendors. Intel knowingly sold defective chips
Ya ... ^ not a thing for anyone who actually follows CPU industry tech.
it literally is the board vendors to blame
Yep my current build boycotted Intel and Ngreedia so that leaves AMD so using my Ole faithful 5600x and a shiny New Sapphire pulse 7900xtx for my 4k gaming endeavors and im far from disappointed with my decision to give Intel and Ngreedia the finger no more fried cpu's and i get future proof amounts of Vram as opposed to barely enough to run games at max settings and better 4k performance and a high-end intrl chip with a 4080 so long as I don't care about RT. I'll take more frames over barely noticeable lighting effects gimmicks
@MrKrampyHands I would love 24GB on the 4070 to run skyrim in 4k because it's literally the vram holding it back not the processing power.
that said, there is also AI workloads that only nvidia can do & do it properly for the moment so for me at least, I required a 4070 for my AI-workload server but the gaming machine I make in the future will feature a high vram GPU no matter the brand
@@Trexzo_Right, which is why Intel had to rush out multiple microcode updates well after mobo vendors already lowered the wattages.
i probably wouldn't mind buying intel again, but since i just upgraded to 14th gen this spring, right before the news came, my next upgrade is about 3 - 6 years away. Who knows what's going on by then.
As long as you have the monetary capacity, you should never upgrade every generation.
Professional recommendation is 2 generations of at least 80 percent performance boost in relevant fields.
New office is going up fast! Glad you guys have a new space for bigger and better shenanigans
10-15 year old systems. Still running my 5820k at 4.2Ghz at 1.255v.
Up until about 2 years ago, I had an i7 930 running with a slight overclock still. That CPU came out in 2010... I bet it would still work if I fired it up today.
god damn you must have hard bottleneck
Still running my Pentium 4 with a whole 512MB RAM and a GeForce 6200 AGP on Windows 98, it plays GTA 3 and Civilization II perfectly 😀
@@Xenoray1 Not as much as you think! Too many folk upgrade every on release...needlessly.
@@ChrisM541 That is to each its own. For normal users, yes, but for DIY and enthusiasts and hobbyist and sponges looking for input and can afford it, it is fun to learn new things and see boundaries become broken, or not lol. 🤛
Good that Intel is trying to prevent such thing from happening again. It's the least we could expect. But this framing is off the mark and you seem to blindly repeat talking points you were told during your briefings by Intel. Mobo vendors try to get away with things, true, but Intel does not need technical solutions to stop them. Their so called "specs" were intentionally broad to allow this kind of thing and Intel didn't tell vendors to stop cranking up the power or voltages. They themselves wanted it this way. Anything to get even with Ryzen performance. Only after their chips turned into crisps did they start acting like their partners were running wild against their intent. And they seem to still trying to deflect blame. They weren't, and Intel themselves even told them this was all "in spec". Besides all that, the main culprit for the failures, as we all know by now, is their own microcode that pushed the voltage too high, regardless of any overclocking or profiles. This was the main issue and that is on Intel, nothing their partners could've even done anything about.
I wonder when it will be allowed for the mainstream press, or any press, to report the real reason Intel is going under -- Intel's stack ranking method of evaluating and then disposing of employees makes it impossible for the company to retain people willing and able to retrain to new technologies, such as say ASML's EUV lithography machines. Anyone taking time to retrain will be stack ranked out of the company, because it's all about what one is doing right now, this year. All of Intel's problems are due to their not being able to get these machines working for now approaching a decade.
They'll probably report that when they report that Israel became heavily involved in Intel in the 90s.. so never.
Years of 14nm++++ made Intel forgot how to make CPU.
The lower bounds of transistor size are thermodynamic. Anyone calming to have a 1nm junction in a circuit capable of complex instruction sets is lying. Even 5nm is a stretch.
I have a strong hunch, that they already forgot that already prior to the recent situation a number of times.
Since somehow Intel *always* struggles as soon as they're under *_any_*_ competitive pressure from whatsoever competitors_ and all of a sudden behave weirdly panic-stricken and act quite disorganized, while running around like a headless chicken!
It's as if that infamous bad old boy's club, really has profound difficulties to perform from time to time …
Intels new business model is to make CPUs that degrade after the 3 year warranty. If you don't believe me, just listen to the ex-Intel designers of the 12th gen chips when they said the ICC/Ringbus was already maxed out and that no more e-cores or voltage can possibly be added without serious degradation. If you don't want to listen to them, just look at the "microcode" update Intel put out. That update was clearly designed to make the chip last as long as possible while slowly dying.
@@jabronilifestyle Not to downplay your claims by any means, but their degradation-issues are just another band-aid in that regard.
Since Intel has _always_ been eager to limit the life-span of their products as much as possible since Sandy Bridge in 2009 (was the last mainstream CPU to be soldered; sTIM) and even before, with …
• Maximal two Generations per board or socket, to cause as much new sales as possible, no matter the environmental eWaste-impact
• They used their bad smear campaign aka TIM to revoke the former existing over-clocking headroom since Ivy Bridge
• Made perfectly capable and mechanically compatible CPUs completely arbitrary to artificially need a new board and chip-set (when a 9th Gen 9900K could perfectly well run on age-old Z170-boards, even running massively overclocked @5+GHz)
• They thinned out their substrate to the point of basically breaking the substrate due to the sheer amount of contact pressure
And so on. Them deliberately cooking their own CPUs en mass when driving them to the very edge, was just a matter of time, when we even saw already CPUs dying without weeks to months in the Skylake-era - The arrival of the 9900K saw sudden new spikes too.
the ifixit ad had no business going this HARD🔥
Been with this channel since 2015 the iFixit ad has more explosion 🔥🔥🔥🔥
My trust for intel is dead after losing my 1700kf after 6 months of use only and having to rebuy a new one
Intel pushed too hard on core clocks and wattage to remaiin competitive
0:48 I suddenly feel the need for iFixIt surgical equipment 😏
The new background is looking great Jay
MSI did a good job on the i9 14900HX... Thing screams with no issues whatsoever... 😮
I’m not too concerned about longevity with these chips, but I’m definitely going to wait and see how reviews go and what overclocking looks like on these chips. If I can have the versatility of a 14900k but use significantly less wattage, that’s very tempting.
I hate sand. It's course and gets everywhere
Just finished watching your office in the latest video and now this video from your office. Actually cool you can film these types of videos from there and the sound is quite dampened.
Really makes these type of talk downs videos "sit right" 🙌🏻
Just to correct you FIVR only existed on desktop for Haswell and Broadwell on Z87/Z97. After that it went back to using voltage regulators on the motherboard. There is no FIVR on LGA1700.
I kind of got pushed into a "have to replace my PC asap situation" and decided I'd just swing for the fences and ordered a Falcon Northwest Talon with the new Intel chip. Figured if it has any issues I can at least count on those guys to help. Now I just have to survive on this laptop until it gets built and shipped.
It is not only the fault of the motherboard manufacturers, I remember a video GN made in conjunction with Level1 Techs where they commented that 50% of Intel CPUs failed in game servers where the CPUs had never been run at high voltage or wattage, in other words CPUs that were never overclocked.
12:04 All P-Cores already exists, it's called Ryzen 9950X 😅😂🤣
Exactly, and if you're really that worried about any micro delays because it's on two separate ccds, You just disable one when you feel like gaming and essentially make it a 7800X3D
Ecores belong on a server hyperscaler on an azure or AWS cloud blade where io and disk for database stuff is the most important benchmark. For games p cores are where it’s at
You are always this funny?
I'm still using my AMD B350 mobo but now with a Ryzen 5900X, and I was INTENDING to go for the Ryzen 9800X3D, but Im really not happy with how AMD is handling the X870/E boards and like you said, there is a lot to like on the Intel side too from a chipset perspective. Im about a 70% gaming/30% IT/content/virtualization user these days, so I do also have reason to make sure I'm getting strong improvements in non-gaming workloads...so, TLDR yes I'm considering the ICU 285K, but the benchmarks the next few months will tell the tale for me.
Same conundrum here. I have the am5 board but I may sell it depending on how much the 9800x3d cost as I wanted to get the 7800x3d before production stopped and cost raised to unobtainium
if you stare at the screensaver, Jay's voice suddenly drowns out.
Wild stuff...😑
Upgrading my sff build from undervolted 6850k to 245K. Already was planning on upgrading but the efficiency improvement is what sold me.
Jay using Canva/open source vids on the monitor in the background 💯 open source ftw
I remember when Linus tech build a server. He used a older generation CPU, His reasoning was that because stability and reliability was critical, the older architecture and technology was more mature and any issues had already fixed in bios updates.
Was this before or after he used a huge firm to threaten Madison with legal action if she said anything else about the sexual assault and harassment that happened when she was at LTT?
who cares what that hack does
The screensaver not being HDR or the correct resolution for the monitor is triggering me 😂😂
Hey Jay, great coverage as usual. I think you are right about run away motherboard Vendors. Out of the box OC setup should be an option, not the default. These boards should pop up a warning that you're choosing to overclock, not making that decision for you without your consent. Intel should have caught that their board partners were not properly warning customers on this. Intel is also at fault for not catching the common voltage path being able to cause chip degradation. You can see it was not just one issue able to cause the problem through the micro code updates; it was very complicated issue. This has not impacted me, and I still feel intel makes a good product that I will consider on my next build, which will happen mid to end of next year, depending on the Video products at that time. (NVidia 5080 level board currently what I want to work with.). I don't like how poorly the AM5 platform has been with high-speed memory.
I'm overdue for an upgrade and I was looking forward to next gen Intel CPU, but after this years fiasco I'm going all in on AMD's X3D. There's just no better choice right now!
I'm just waiting for the 9000 series versions. Maybe I'll try Intel again in a 3 or 4 years on my next upgrade. Definitely NOT this one...
Bravo.. me too
I currently have a 10900k but I’m switching to 9000x3D soon
This won't ever happen with Intel again... Anyone taking bets?
It'll be something different. Every company has mistakes make it out the door. They also had the FP bug and Netburst and Itanic other mistakes. This one was probably the worst and poorest handled to date though.
I bet 20 bucks Intel will find a way to fuck up in some spectacular way again, in the next 6 years max.
Yeah, bullshit. Anything past 12th gen is problems post covid socialism and lazy, unaccountable businesses.
No bet
lol it's a very generalized bet with no parameters lol
I’ve never considered buying a motherboard for the sake of improving CPU performance. Even if I noticed a slight performance boost from the CPU, I would have attributed it to winning the silicon lottery, not the motherboard vendor. Now that I’ve learned some motherboards adjust voltages (unbeknownst to me) in their settings, I’m even less interested. I don’t want that feature and will actively avoid boards that do this.
Sounds like PR is deflecting .... jay being the pr today . Nobody want Intel to disappear but we all need competency too
That's social media for you. Influencers get paid to influence, unfortunately.
Boards did fried up both AMD and Intel CPUs... It's history not making this up myself.
Have to also see how the lack of Hyper-threading is going to affect the overall performance of Arrow Lake.
Hyper threading was always a meme. It's a marketing term for something the CPU/OS always did and a jenkey workaround for shit program optimization.
I would think high humidity is only relevant for open evaporating cooling solutions. Like human skin. Because the air just can't take in any more liquid.
While for tech high humidity air should provide higher heat capacity due to having higher percentage of water molecules?
It could speed up solder deterioration though, oxidation rates in general or something like that.
Ah yes, Boardpartners at fault because they are in a competition wirh each other for...performance (lol, the famous Motherboard FPS Benchmark rankings), not Intel shitting THE bed with ballooning voltage because they cannot compete archetecturally.
Intel Money doesnt stink, huh?
I’m not touching z890 until we know for certain that lga1851 will support at least one additional CPU generation. Given MTL-S cancellation, for all we know, lga1851 could be a one trick pony.
Intel can lunch a new "no new" CPU architecture with less nm or same with a ++++ and 100mhz more 😊
Love the new iFixit skid! Havent laughed that hard at an ad spot in a while, good job guys lol.
I think all of the blame you are placing on board vendors falls at the feet of Intel. Go back and look at that card that lists the 3 or 4 standards and none of them make sense and they actually counter themselves in the same standard. If what you give board vendors doesn't make sense the blame falls on you when they follow it. This is an Intel problem, not a board vendor problem.
I wouldnt trust Intel for the next generations. Had three intel 13/14 gen since the upgrade the instability began. I used manual voltage since day 1 so i doubt it is degradation because of the voltage bug and think theres another issue in it. I thought over a year its a issue with my gpu , psu , software, drivers , i reinstalled many times i changed gpu psu mainboard multiple times and still random crashes once a day some days none then again. After the intel issue came to light i though oh cpu i never thought of it. Changed one system to AMD issues gone. Changed the other to AMD issues gone.
I can't remember what it was, but GN did cover another issue that was manufacturing based as well. A lot of people glossed over it, but it may be what you're experiencing.
Edit: found it, It's oxidation/contamination issues that cause problems at the microcircuitry level. It's the Gamers Nexus vod titled "Intel Needs to Say Something: Oxidation Claims, New Microcode, & Benchmark Challenges"
@@deathventure I read something about corrosion during the manufacturing process. But intel claims it only effected a batch of a few early 13th gen. I guess they kept this information that low and i doubt that it only effect one batch. I mean those crashes were so random i never thought it could be the cpu. I guess many users blame the game or the driver or whatever for the crash and dont realize its the cpu.
DLVR is an obscure adult entertainment maneuver. Make sure your doctor clears you before trying to DLVR your partner(s).
XD love it at around 5:18 in the vid, when he says Extreme and then the monitor on the left makes like a little Kaboom with its screen saver. :D
Thanks for the info!
What is the screen saver behind you? Pretty nice fluid diffusion!
Thanks for the great videos!
full disclosure love the tweak to the sponser spot full honesty is the only ad i actually like to watch
Never been happier since switching to AMD's 7950X3D! After dealing with a degraded 13900K and a defective Z690 motherboard, I’m done with Intel for now. This move has been a game-changer for me. Thanks for covering Intel's approach, but it’s AMD all the way for me at the moment!
This is why I have always used a static voltage for my Overclocks...It may draw 2-5 watts more at idle, but that is not enough to make any kind of real difference...I also disable C-states and intel speedshift/speedstep...When I get a new CPU I usually see how far I can push the frequency with stock voltage...I then manually set that all core frequency and voltage and then slowly start working the voltage down until it is no longer stable...After that I will add 15-20mv and run a bunch of stress tests...I don't let the cpu downclock or lower the voltage at idle and it has never caused me any issues...I did this with my 13700k and I have never had a single crash because of the CPU...
My man putting the "hardware" in Hardware Haven. Nicely done sir!
They will lie about motherboard vendors destroying there CPU’s again?
I find it amuzing that some of the motherboard vendors allowed like 4000+ watts power draw when most US wall circuits only produce 1500 to 1800 watts anyway. An attempted power draw that maxed the circuit capacity of between 1500 and 1800 watts would trip a circuit breaker immediately.
4000W power draw just means that the CPU draws however much power it needs to run at the speed it want to run at, it does not mean it can actually draw 4000W. Really the power limit is just artificially throttling your CPU when you exceed it the same way the tempeture limit thermal throttles your CPU when you go over. Older CPUs did not realy on the power limit in order to not kill themselves so an unlimited power limit just made able to run at higher speeds for longer at the cost of efficiency.
Interested to see intel doing actually something new with CPUs and not relying to just minor updates.
Gonna wait to see how these new 200 series work out and maybe upgrade to them.
Best Commercial ever. Unable to skip because you know, Explosions....
I sometimes trust a company easier if they've screwed up than initially because after a screw up there is usually efforts to fix it. Of course the trust still needs to be earned and it really depends on how many signs I see that they are taking the problem seriously
It will be easier for folks to adopt Arrow Lake if Intel puts out that LGA 1851 will support Panther Lake. With all the news that Arrow Lake will barely outperform the 14900K or the AMD 9000 series it is extremely important that they promise that Panther Lake will drop into the latest Z890 $500+ motherboards. This is just one step in the right direction to make amends.
I find it strange to blame mobo manufactures for running potentially damaging power profiles instead of safe stable ones.
What's worse.... slower working boards or RMA'ed boards and damaged brand?
This all has to land on Intel's feet as they had to have sent chips and specs to manufacturers...... and I suspect they may have sent custom chips to the manufactures that lead to them believing these profiles were safe to use.
because of the 13-14th gen problems I decided to build a 12th gen system. it is slower, it is weaker, but at least it won't cook itself to death.and judging how often I upgrade, the next one might be 18-20th gen
Jay's old studio: Explosions
Jay's new studio: Calm
I was initially planning to upgrade both GPU and CPU this year. (DDR4 to DDR5 so this also includes motherboard and RAM)
But both AMD and Intel are focusing on architecture changes for power efficiency, rather than having a significant gaming performance increase.
So now I'm more hesitant and most likely will wait for at least a few months, if not skipping this entire generation both AMD and intel.
It's Jay's job to buy and use the Z890 motherboards and to suffer through whatever problems arise. The recent degradation news was overblown but the earlier high failure rate in 11th generation was under reported. Unless you are a UA-camr, wise money would not be an early adopter of any of these boards systems either Intel or AMD. Arrow Lake might be great but then again they are making major changes in the architecture that might introduce new problems.
Still using 11th gen (11700K) since 21, 8 cores 5Ghz. It does need a 360 cooler but not an issue. Gigabyte Master MB. Ultra setting @ 4K, 3080 Ti.
oh ffs dont just throw the vendors under the bus, its as much intel fault and responsibility as the vendors, they were perfectly fine with it when it helped them sell for of their CPUs.
Intel already admitted that the root cause is an issue with the 13/14th gen architecture. All the bios changes were attempted mitigations for their faulty hardware.
The intro was just perfect for someone like me who is new and still learning on the PC space.
This type of vid from Jay and Team really inform even the noob like me.
@@JomeFromWork except that he’s blaming the wrong people. Most of us in the comments are in agreement. The problem is that the CPU was allowed to ask for infinite power to begin with, all the motherboard vendors were doing is giving intel what they wanted. A motherboard manufacturer should not be responsible for keeping Intel in check. Intel spent a long time trying to trick people into blaming motherboard manufacturers, and clearly it has worked on Jay.
If you want honest tech discussions, watch Gamers’ Nexus. Jay can be good, but he is often just a regular casual tech-tuber, and this is one of those cases.
@zf9903 as far as I understand from whole content. Jay mentioned that MoBo manufacturers put more wattage in the chip AND intel microcode also allows it to be the case. He is saying both are at fault but of course mainly Intel.
There is a section too on the resolution in place where he explain it.
But I see your point that he's somehow blaming the wrong people but it's just the format where he first talk about MoBo manufactures then at the mid section talks about Intel where it should be the other way around.
I would not trust any CPU past 12th gen at this point. I still use Intel 6 core, Core i5, 10th gen, and it works great with the RTX 3060 graphics card. And if there is ANY artificial intelligence embedded, hardware or software, including the NPU chips on the new motherboards and cell phones, I refuse to buy it. Consumers should have a choice.
I wouldn't trust 15th Gen because it was likely in production when the first reports of degradation on 13th and 14th gen came out, but after that, it's so far down the road in the future that Intel would be using new wafers that haven't been affected by whatever manufacturing flaw occurred. So reasonable to assume 16th Gen might be safe.
@@luminatrixfanfiction - i disagree. And because of AI, I am done with technology past a certain stage
@@luminatrixfanfiction nope. most designs are done 2-3 years before production, which starts 8-9months ahead of announcement not counting engineering samples. so theres a good 4-5 year gap between with things are put in and people actually get them
10th gen has been listed by techyescity as the last one before real issues with the snappiness. And then 11th had some increased failures, 12 gen seemed okay but was of course now loaded with the e cores and stuff if I’m not wrong so weather you want to go that route or not of course is personal preference.
It’s sad too cause if intel took the hit and handled the customer service route like they should have this would have blown over when they finally change their design much like with the ground up refresh that ryzen brought. I’m sure there is stuff in the works that will put them back on top again. Just a hard sell now to regain trust.
I don’t fanboy for anyone I just went with a ryzen am4 cuz it was efficient enough and cost effective for my needs. And as much as I thought long and hard about matching it with an amd gpu I just gimped my vram with a 3080 10gb instead cuz of nvidias better resale down the line and just higher market share which I really do believe leads to less problems and quicker fixes for issues from devs. And I don’t even like using dlss or raytracing.
@@organicinsanity2534 - i agree. It is called post covid socialism via the commie democrats. I already know.
I'm too frugal to be on the bleeding edge of any new tech. That being said, I'm looking forward to seeing how this next generation does for everyone else. I still have a few more years before I'll be thinking about a CPU upgrade.
And here is me still running my 13600k at 6.1 for 2 cores, 5.9 and 5.7 for 4 and 6, with the e cores running at 4.2. I do have a custom cooling solution that means the CPU rarely goes over 65C
I still feel blessed to have escaped the 13th/14th k chip fiasco, really do think both Intel and the motherboard makers were to blame. There is a reason people were downgrading their k cpus to B760 boards. I feel the consumer should be somewhat protected, am sure a lot of people not doing aggressive OC were impacted.
Most of us are not whales. Many that recently bought a new pc or upgraded to a 13th or 14th gen might not afford another one, and doesn't feel like upgrading when their recent bought pc will play their games well for many years to come.
Anyone that tuned their i7’s and i9’s did not have a micro code problem or CPU degradation.
I know there were a lot of problems with intel 14th gen CPUs in the server space that were not running with the same types of power profiles that consumer motherboards used. And I have had my 5950x for at least two years now with all of the limits removed and it’s still running with no issues whatsoever.
Same with my 2700x, 5600x, and 5900x. My 5900x just long in the tooth and limiting my 7900xtx. So just waiting on 9800x3d since 7800x3d is unobtainium
I've been postponing upgrading for a few generations. I'm currently running an i5-9400F and am going to roll the dice on a Core 7 Ultra.
I’ve only skipped two generations of Ryzen now. The 3000, and 7000 only due to the 7800x3d being unobtainium. I’ve had 1700, 2700x, 5600x and now 5900x just waiting on 9800x3d
Perfectly executed with the settings on Intel motherboards and Intel processors. GREAT video
He is the only channel with an Info Commercial I enjoy watching ... It Makes me want to buy it. Very entertaining IFixit
I already have some powerful systems, one of them being the AtomMan G7 TI, so I'll hold off for quite a while before upgrading. That will give Intel time to work out any bugs in their next generation processors. It sounds cool being an early adopter until you have to deal with the issues that arise from it.
a friend said intel is windows where you can brick it at any time. and AMD is mac where you can brick it but takes more effort.
i hope that intel got it right, it's not good if only one company deliver as it usually mean more expensive product for consumer.
I hope next generation will have decent performance, but more importantly will be really stable and not have scary power draw like 13 and 14 gen.
The issue for intel is when you manage to loose the confidence from your confidence in your product is that people adopt the wait and see mode, so will see how they do
TBH a class action lawsuit should be filed against the board partners