The SILLANS -- A History-First AoE2 Civ Proposal (LAVAnilla Episode 4)
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- Опубліковано 13 лип 2024
- Presentation Link: docs.google.com/presentation/...
Discord server: / discord
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Chapters:
00:00 Good to see you!
00:36 My Approach
01:44 Who Were They?
03:33 History
08:14 Flavor
09:22 Campaign
11:05 Major Themes
13:55 Overview & Bonuses
17:00 Unique Unit 1
19:26 Unique Unit 2
21:20 Unique Techs
23:07 Tech Tree Grades
26:00 Gameplan
28:42 Uncertainties
30:17 Alternatives
32:36 LAVAnte-Garde
34:11 Likeliometer
34:40 Ciao for now! - Ігри
The lumber camp bonus is a good idea, which has major utility that you didn't discuss much. Namely that it allows your garrisoned (idled) villagers to gather while driven off their post by an enemy raid. There are no existing bonuses that do this, and it could function as a riff on the Kmer house hiding ability. Lumber camps could even be built next to distant mining camps as a stone free alternative to a tower, again much like the Kmer do. In that sense I think it should be something like 80% gather rate for the first vil (probably similar to effective gather rate when walk time is factored in) tapering down to something like 10% for the 8th vil and beyond. For example, a lumber camp with five villagers that came under attack in early feudal could garrison and still produce around 60% of what they would have been. Honestly might even be too strong like that but the numbers could be tweaked.
TRUE. This was absolutely on my mind when I was designing the bonus but I just completely forgot to mention it in the video.
I could definitely see you being right about the numbers being completely off. Like I said, I had no idea how to make this thing work the way I wanted it to, but if we find it's over tuned then I think your proposal is a really great way to start trying to fix it up.
Wow… in my AOE1 Choson build I had the Hwarang as the unique unit
Never heard of you or the Sillans. But this random recomendation by the algorythm did peak my interest
Well thank you very much! The algorithm is a fickle mistress, but it's done a good deed this day at the very least.
Really hope you enjoyed!
When I first read the title I thought you were doing a re-design of the Sicilians, which really interested me.
With luck I'll have that one out this year!
@@robbylava Can you heart my comment again? I fixed a spelling mistake and that removed it.
sicilians and burgundy have i think probably the most controversial factions designs of all times, so i am waiting with anticipation on what you cook for the sicilians and if you ever move to, the burgundians(personally speaking i am an absolute fan of flemish revolution, althought that may be the AOE3 player in me talking since i love doing revolutions)
@thegeneralissimo6172 absolutely interested in doing both of the above! I actually quite like the designs for both of them (perhaps unsurprisingly lol), at least on the mechanical front, though the Sicilians piss me off for entirely history based reasons.
Hoping to get to at least one of the two by the end of the year, and the other shouldn't be atrociously long after that!
Just wanted to say nicely done on the new format. Going places.
Awesome to hear! I was quite pleased with it myself.
Great to see you in the comments section again my friend!
Great theorycraft as always, Robby.
Developing on the garrisonable sheep with the lumber camp bonus is particularly good. Very nice touch - and still within the workings of the game, even if it initially sounded somewhat strange.
Maybe Seodang should just give a flat 30 food return instead? It'd still be the same for the dismouned Hwarang, but the Changbyeong and sword-line would only give 50% payback.
Maybe it's just me, but having (effectively) silly cheap levy infantry seems counterproductive to your idea of them falling of in the lategame. (I know they only get regular skirms and scouts, but they have otherwise full upgrades on those.)
Also, I really like the little stars you've added to the tech tree! Beautiful little touch.
Thanks for the video!
Hey! Really glad to hear you like this one so much my friend! I'm really glad someone mentioned to the stars, I was quite pleased with that touch hehehe
I can see what you mean about Seodang, but my concern was that without it their late game would be the worst in the game by far. Even the Turks have awesome hussars to fall back on, so this was my attempt to give them a similar lifeline.
I've even had more than a few commenters say that they think this bonus is too WEAK, if anything! So it's such a split consensus I'm really not sure how it would actually play out. If it ended up being too strong and made the civilization feel too good in post imperial age I would be more than happy to nerf it of course.
Thanks as always for sharing your thoughts man! Always good to see you in the comments.
Hwarang is finally in the build!!!!! THANK YOU Robby! Sorry I didn’t send a comment on your previous Korean build, I was traveling a lot - I wanted to make a mention of Hwarang after I watched your previous video, but now I am just glad they made it in this new build. Fantastic! Also, a happy belated congrats on the Spirits of the Law shoutout. I feel like that must be a big deal. My jaw dropped when I watched the said SOTL video. Lastly, here’s a question - if Silla gets a build, and possibly the other two Korean kingdoms - what sets the line between something that is considered “dynasty” vs “civilization”? I ask also because I think during the AOE2 relevant time period, the history of “China” was so complex that even within the Han ethnicity there could be at least 10 civs if Silla is a civ. What are your thoughts on that note? (Also, if you’d like to work on expanding upon East Asian civs, I’d love to help!)
HEY!
No need to apologize at all, I actually thought of you when I was making this vid. Glad you enjoyed! And many thanks for the congratulations.
Your Dynasty vs Civilization question is a great one. I grappled with a similar question myself in a video essay a year or so ago ("Dynasties vs Ethnicities").
I don't want to get too deep into the weeds, though maybe on a livestream or voice call or something I could go into more detail, but to stick with the pragmatics of the situation, I DO personally think that the current "Chinese" absolutely merit somewhere in the range of at least a 6-8 way split in order to properly represent (ideally much more).
I had no idea you were proficient with East Asian history! If you'd like to talk further, please do shoot me an email! You've been a great viewer of the channel and I'd love to potentially work with you.
A very interesting build. The Hwarang is a really cool unit, can absolutely see some fun strategies with that one.
Great to see the Koreans getting some more love. I am always in favor of more civs! Just add all of them! 😁
Thanks so much for saying so my friend!
YAY! A NEW VID!
morning robbie, thought of a couple of techs for possible future designs for you.
to lessen the blow of trade being raided, a UT that lowers trade route inc by 10% but pays 45% each visit, not just each return visit (so in a normal route where other civ carts travel from A to B and back to A to get 100g, they would get 45g from A to B, then 45g from B to A). maybe combine it with a team bonus of 'killed (not deleted!) trade carts return 50% gold cost.
my 2nd idea is a bit more dark. aoe2 is a fun game and all, but i think it needs to at least address the issue of slavery a bit more! like it or not, pretty much everyone did it, so maybe could be introduced across all/most civs like squires! my idea is a fairly expensive feudal TC tech that grants X slaves each time when reaching castle age, imp age, killing enemy tc or castle. slave units are non-trainable, cannot be upgraded, only 90% as efficient as dark age vills but take up no pop space. utility is either slap them on a woodline and forget about them, or yolo them on suicide builds like risky castle drops.
Красавчик! Продолжай в том же духе!
Korean History is so fun 🎉
I like the new graphics and format.
Awesome! Thanks so much for saying so! Really helps me figure out what I should be doing when people share feedback like this.
Nice video thanks!
The wood gathering bonus is interesting - needs proper balancing blabla, you know the lyrics 11 - but precisely, I think your first stab at it is a pretty good one and might require just fine tuning.
For the archer upgrade cost bonus, if the theme is that the are very powerful early but tend to fall off, that'd be the perfect bonus for them!
I like the unique unit 1 (long range cav archers always have my preference), but I will say it looks kinda weird to me to have an unmounted unit with more HP than the base mounted one (although it is not the case with bloodlines). Not a big deal tho.
Ohh, the unique unit 2 is really interesting! Cheaper, more accessible version of the Kamayuki? Sign me in! I was going to comment that this + the unique tech would make it a good levy civ, when one of the themes is they fall off late game... but looking at the tech tree, you took care of that! :D
I'm also not against giving what is essentially a variation of Yeomen to this civ. There are a few bonuses and UTs with similar effects across all civs (plus, britons were very well known for their archer range, not their crossbows/arbalesters) and so, if it fits the civ theme, they should get it!
Ah last comment: the "Cheongbono" would almost be something that britons could/should get for their longbows 11 so there's more interchangeable parts between the two civs 11
Thanks so much for taking the time to watch and share your thoughts! I'm really glad you like it.
I know that the Hwarang mounted/dismounted stats are kind of weird, but I felt like if I made the mounted version have Even the same HP and armor as the dismounted version I would need to increase the cost dramatically, making it probably the most expensive UU in the game. I was tempted to do so though!
Seriously though, I'm thrilled you found so much to like in this one. I would say it's probably my best balanced build thus far on the channel!
Good vid
Now that you did a Britons series (kind of), how about a Koreanic series (Like you mentioned Goguryeo, Baekje, Gaya, Balhae, etc) 👀
That is absolutely something I want to do down the line! For now I want to give people a break from Korea, since (much as I love talking about it) I think a bunch of viewers are starting to get a little sick of it, but I will for sure be returning to the peninsula at some point in the future!
Hey great vid.
I have just been looking at the civ doc for a few civs and I have been wondering why you do not give bonuses to your redesigned Units and why they do not show in your civ docs?
Just been preing on my mind.
Anyway great vid.
I meant to say pressing on my mind sorry.
Really glad you like it!
I'm sorry though, I don't understand the question. Could you elaborate?
@@robbylava it is more for all your civs. I was wondering why you do not give bonuses for your custom Archer line of swordsman line or things like that.
@@user-dw7ej2rt8l OHHH I see what you mean!
So there're two main reasons for that:
1. I don't want to force people to watch my older vids to make sense of newer ones
2. I recently changed up the philosophy of this channel to keep builds more "vanilla", so I'm trying to work with the existing tech tree as much as possible
I will be getting back to some of those older, more out-there ideas in future though! And when I do, I will most certainly be creating civs that have bonuses for them.
Eh, not really a civ in my mind. I know there are a few people pushing for the division of certain existing civs based on historical time periods (one radical example is breaking up Burgundians into three, Kingdom of Burgundy, Kingdom of Arles and the final Burgundian state, each its own civ), in my mind this only makes sense in case of major cultural shifts. Like, say, after the Mongol conquest of Cuman-Kipchak confederation, the entire area's identity shifted from Cuman and Kipchak to Tatar, to the point that even though the inhabitants spoke Kipchak languages they refered to themselves as Tatars. This usually requires some way of augmenting this distinction, like eastern Tatars which caused this shift, or Langobards and Carolingians causing the shift of Romans to Italians. Koreans seem pretty uniform to me, with their older kingdoms making a consistent cultural continuum to modern Joseon.
Campaign appearances would be none, in officially released scenarios. Only the cut scenario, kaesong, would feature the old Korean kingdoms.
I can see why you would think so, but I think that's more to do with Silla being underrated rather than it being undifferentiated. Having just done a good amount of research, I can assure you they were QUITE different!
Some similarities, of course, but I'd argue they were substantially more different from later Goryeo/Joseon than, to follow with your example, the Burgundians ever were from the rest of France.
@@robbylava It's more about the historical context with Burgundians, really. I would've personally given a partial focus to the Germanic Burgundians which weren't French at all, which is the main reason I think Burgundians make any sense as their own civilization. Burgundian State alone is really just French, but that original element is what makes them different. Which is why I find it unfortunate that the Burgundians are just the latter Burgundian State, when that should only be the Imperial Age focus of the civilization.
Another example I can list which is closer to home is Hungarians being separate from Magyars, in your Slavs video. There's no word for a distinction in the local languages or by Magyars themselves. Hungarian self-denomination is Magyars and even in local languages close to Hungary it's the same thing (in Croatian, the only instance where we use a version of Hungary is in case of the Austria-Hungary but otherwise it's just Mađarska). There's no real cultural distinction or breakpoint between the Magyar tribes and the latter Hungarian state, it's a cultural continuum. It's that continuum that would be the foundation of any civ, like giving the Magyars the basic Steppe Lancer but without the elite upgrade, to denote their latter settled status compared to fully nomadic civs that have it. Not to there be a random break in a civilization's history because they went from nomadic to settled.
Historically.... oh yeah, that's your focus..... historically there's a break, but for gameplay purposes I think that civilizations being represented as a sum of their histories feels more flavorful. Especially with the likes of Burgundy which might not have as much if it was just their weakly documented early germanic period, with the Burgundian State offering something to work with as well.
I won't complain about you making civs I disagree with. We do have a difference in opinion and that's pretty natural, imo. Maybe would be best I just mention my opinion on a civ existing and that's it, but I'm mostly here to rant about campaign appearances.
@Crossil completely reasonable! I have zero issue with people disagreeing with me on what civilizations should be added, and I do really enjoy reading your analyses!
The only thing you said that I really disagreed with was that the various Korean kingdoms are more uniform than some of the other existing civilizations we see out there. But at the end of the day, this is a judgment call as with so much else.
Either way, I do really appreciate you taking the time to watch and share your thoughts! Always love seeing you in the comments.
Aight, I looked into this because I was curious to what degree it could make sense and I think I get it now. Honestly, it's always peculiar to see these blind spots in history you could miss. But how much would you divide the southern Korean peoples of this era?
At least from my perception, Goguryeo would be continuation of the later united Korea, but how far could the south be divided? In theory they can be united under a Samhan tag, but I guess you're gonna be more ambitious?
Considering the wood bonus as you proposed, I think they would be too strong, specially in hybrid maps.
Let me explain, usually you need 5-7 villagers in wood (on dark age) to make a dock and 3 fishing ships, if we can guarrison a villager for 3 villagers equivalent wood production, and second villager for 2, you should have enough to make fishing ships (it’s like if you were 3 villagers ahead in dark age, that is more than even the Chinese and you don’t start with less food).
With that you should be able to reach feudal faster than the enemy, and start making fire ships which in theory should cement your economy advantage for the rest of the game.
About the unique unit, I think it will not receive a lot of gameplay in higher elos, it is too expensive and cav archers need to be massed up to be effective. Also unlike the koniks an infantry unit doesn’t synergies very well with cav archers, first they don’t share any blacksmith upgrades, second infantry is good against pikes (the counter to cavalry) and ok versus camels (the other counter) but it is just ok vs smirks (skirms are usually faster than infantry, so they can hit and run) and also not great against scorpions (the most common counter to cav archers).
I think the civ will probably be played as a food archer civ with siege (but maybe no many monks). From the bonus and tech tree I think it would be best played as a 1TC full in civ, since you have a huge eco advantage at the beginning (enough to probably kill the enemy in feudal) but it falls quite strongly after castle age. That means you “need” to finish the game before late castle age or you are dead.
Great video
You can't have Gambesons without Supplies 23:15
True! But I actually find it to be rather a silly distinction, since it wouldn't cause issues with the UI to have the latter but not the former.
So while not technically possible, I strongly feel like it should be!
Eyy was just watching the saracen split!
Perfect timing! Hope you enjoyed both that and this.
You forgot to mention how they stopped the zombies too 😉
I'm sure this is a super clever reference, but I am a cultural illiterate and don't get it at all hehehe
@@robbylava Hey I was just referring to "The Kingdom" show (Netflix), medieval Koreans vs Zombies and of course some political drama thrown in. It's a show I enjoyed a lot.
@@afz902k great show
@afz902k OHHHH. I had zero idea that existed. Really interesting!
Problem: sounds too similar to "Sicilians"
Solution: Rename Sicilians to "Normans", because that's more accurate anyway.
That's definitely part of the plan. Hopefully I will be getting to that civilization sometime this year!
I read sicilians lol 😂 I was so confused
I think the Saracens should he broken up like the Indians were, keep the Saracens sure but add Fatimids, Umayyads, Abbasids.
I did a video on this very topic many months ago on the channel! Breaking up the Saracens is very high on my personal list of wishes for the game.
@@robbylava A Sultanate of Rum variation of the Turks wouldn't be a bad idea either.
@nomemories130 totally. I'm not yet sure how I'm going to approach that, but I definitely plan on doing so eventually
Are you doing to do a Baekje civ?
At some point yes! I want to hit a bunch of other places first though, since I reckon you guys are probably pretty tired of Korea at this point
@@robbylava Thank you and I love your contect
@@zacksalmon8010 Of course my friend! Thank you so much for saying so, it means a lot to hear
First!
Robby, you drive me crazy you talk of so many civ who were good traders but why do not see on unique upgrade for trade card/cog like they can bring some random resource beside the normal gold or go crazier every trip and generate some little influence and when you have sufficient you cant research one of ally unique tech
I see what you mean heheheh
A lot of civilizations across history have been masters of trade. But our wonderful game is unfortunately very simplistic on the eco front, and trade is 100% worthless in the most common formats, so I have to be selective about where I put such bonuses.
We don't need different dynasties of the same ethinic group for AoE2. You don't want to end up with like 10+ variations of china do you.
First off, Silla was ethnically different from its neighbors on the peninsula, at least as much so as other civilization pairs we have in the game right now like the Goths and Teutons or the Franks and Burgundians.
Secondly, I would like nothing more than to see China subdivided. 10+ seems completely reasonable to me! The far east has been neglected for far too long