Kidney Function: The Missing Link In The TMAO-Health And Disease Story?
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- Опубліковано 18 лис 2020
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I would investigate Taurine as it’s found in fish and supposed to be protective of Kidney. Maybe that’s the linkage.
So is there anything we can do to improve kidney function? Otherwise, it sounds like after age 40 we should be reducing animal foods...
Or doing things to optimize kidney function to youthful levels. One strategy is to increase fiber intake, which improves kidney function:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25387901/
Great video and explanations, thank you!
Interesting to compare this with Dr. Michael Rose's theory that humans should eat more paleo as we age, for reasons he stated in your interview.
But lately, my kidney function is indeed declining at a precipitous rate as I age. I cut out red meat, but eat fish (150 g of trout, char, or salmon), poultry and an egg every day. I may have to start experimenting with a vegan diet to see if I can right the ship. Don't worry, I'll be consulting with a nephrologist.
Fascinating video. Thank you!
Excellent presentation.
This was a really interesting video. I eat 49g salmon/day (12oz spread equally over 7 days). I used to eat 98g/day, but got worried about the mercury. When I started eating daily salmon like this, I noticed that my blood pressure dropped about 10 points and stayed at the lower level as long as I ate the salmon. (I have been taking my blood pressure weekly for a long time.)
Yes, exactly, that's one of the main points of my channel-identifying dietary amounts that optimize biomarkers, which is an objective approach for optimal health!
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 I completely agree. Objective being the main point here.
Maybe plasma TMAO is just a marker for kidney function, and so higher TMAO is associated with higher all-cause mortality only because reduced kidney function is associated with higher all-cause mortality.
Thanks John, that's a point made in the video! However, it may not be that simple, because it causes atherosclerosis in mice on a particular genetic background in young mice:
link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12944-018-0939-6
Very helpful. Thanks
Nice analysis to get to the bottom of the issue. So people with weak kidneys shouldn't eat too much meat.
It should be noted that meat chicken and eggs do raise TMAO among non-vegans. It comes down to the different microbiome. Fish once or twice a week would appear to be optimal. Or full vegan and flaxseed+ curcuma for DHA liver synthesis
The idea is to counteract the negative effects with something positive.
Fish might raise tmao but have positive effects for other pathways so you equalise that with nutrients etc that benefit the organs effected by higher tmao.
It's a very simplistic explanation but you get the drift.
It'll about balance and countermeasures.
What you really need to do is stop TMA converting into TMAO in the gut biome.Its alot safer to target molecular pathways in gut microbes, and not in human cells.
I wouldn't worry too much about fish as long as it's quality is good eg: not high in pollutants etc, large studies have been done and people with the highest fish consumption had better health.
@iteratedcorpse yes yes I get your point on this video but the bigger picture is healthy life extension, the whole point of this channel, it's not worrisome as worrying will lower your health span.
I already solved the tmao fish paradox by stating you can consume nutrients to combat the effect caused by tmao,there are different ways to look at things not everything is set in concrete.
I appreciate your input and happy trails on your path to a healthy life span.
Also a bit of TMAO in the blood on the contrary might be a benefit.
Researchers studied the effect of TMAO on rats that have a genetic tendency to develop high blood pressure (spontaneously hypertensive rats). One group of hypertensive rats was given low-dose TMAO supplements in their drinking water, and another group received plain water. They were compared to a control group of rats that does not have the same genetic predisposition and received plain water. The dosage of TMAO was designed to increase blood TMAO levels approximately four times higher than what the body normally produces. The rats were given TMAO therapy for either 12 weeks or 56 weeks and were assessed for heart and kidney damage and high blood pressure.
TMAO treatment did not affect the development of high blood pressure in any of the spontaneously hypertensive rats. However, condition of the animals given the compound was better than expected, even after more than a year of low-dose TMAO treatment. "A new finding of our study is that [a] four- to five-fold increase in plasma TMAO does not exert negative effects on the circulatory system. In contrast, a low-dose TMAO treatment is associated with reduced cardiac fibrosis and [markers of] failing heart in spontaneously hypertensive rats," the researchers wrote.
When you calculate eGFR, do you adjust it for body surface area? Or you use the CKD-EPI which does not do any adjustments?
In our part of India many become vegetarians as they age.
Especially after 50/60.
Thanks. @ 6 m the table shows high p-values (nearly 1) for high eGFR. I thought 0.05 or less was the desired threshold. So, should we rely on the high eGFR data ?
The data ~6:00 show that all-cause mortality risk is not associated with TMAO when eGFR is > 90 (average, 103; p-value > 0.05), but when eGFR is below 90 (average, 76) it is significantly associated with risk of death for all causes. So relatively low kidney function may explain some of the association for TMAO with all-cause mortality risk.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 THanks. Time for me to refresh on null hypothesis and p value
Astragalus is protective of kidney function/sepsis, etc..
The cause aren't proteins but an imbalanced gut (like dysbiosis) were some bacterias like Proteus, Edwardsiella and Provodencia, convert choline in TMAO.
I didn't claim that protein was the problem...
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Yes i know , my comment wasn't versus you 👌i commented only because i want to know what people think of my comment or what you think about correlation of gut dysbiosis and TMAO. Bye.
@@mike0133 Yes, the gut has a big role in the TMAO story, but as mentioned in the video, kidney function may be the driving factor.
There is a lot of info lacking in this video. It's not only carnitine and choline but also lecithin that is a precursor to TMA that gets converted to TMAO. Many plant foods are full of lecithin. Some people even take plant-based supplements made out of lecithin, such as the typical phospholipid supplements made out of sunflower oil. The popular olive oil is also high in lecithin.
But keep in mind that these precursors will only raise TMAO levels if one also has a large population of the gut bacteria Prevotella. Guess what is the favorite food of Prevotella that will increase their numbers in the gut? Prevotella loves grain. As long as one avoids grains and other similar foods that feed Prevotella, an even all-meat diet will not greatly increase TMAO levels. This is shown in research and it's shocking that still this knowledge gets ignored.
The point of the video is not to focus on all the mechanisms that TMAO is formed, as it's only a 9-minute video. In contrast, the purpose of the video is to highlight the role of kidney function, which is largely not discussed in the conventionally talked about TMAO story.
I get that. But it would be different if this was just one source that omitted this info. Almost every discussion of TMAO I've come across ignores the same basic scientific facts. How are people supposed to make informed decisions when very few experts are offering them all of the information needed to make a decision?
This isn't to attack you personally. Take it as constructive criticism. We all need to up our game in becoming more informed and sharing that information. We are up against conventional recommendations that keep repeating the same narrow views, misleading claims, and misinformation. Even short videos are an opportunity to counter such failures of public knowledge and public debate.
I really don't mean to target you with ire. And I know it comes off that way. But I'm sure you understand my frustration. We've all had that experience of seeing the same limited info and narrow arguments being repeated because it is considered conventional knowledge. And it has real world consequences for people's health.
Many people have been misled to believe they are improving their health in avoiding potential animal-based TMAO precursors Yet they're then falsely assuming they're being healthy while actually getting high levels of plant-based TMAO precursors on a grain-based diet. That will increase their TMAO levels higher than animal foods alone on a carnivore diet.
Without realizing it, they could be further damaging their kidneys, simply because no expert authority gave them the full information about all of the sources of where TMAO comes from. On top of that, by limiting or eliminating animal foods, they've also are making themselves deficient in essential nutrients that are primarily or only found in animal foods.
I hear you@@MarmaladeINFP, but at no point did I downplay eating animal products in the video, but instead focused on kidney function. If other sites want to push that narrative, that's on them, but imo is a superficial view on health. I try to go deeper on this channel by providing insight that the other sites missed.
I realize you didn't downplay eating animal foods. But it could create that impression by your only mentioning animal-based precursors of TMAO while not noting those from plants. Then you also don't bring up the fact that Prevotella prefer grains, another plant food. It's not merely about what you did say but the perception of how your words might be interpreted according to what you didn't say. In terms of applied knowledge, that has everything to do with the effect of TMAO on kidney function.
What’s your take on extended water fasting, Doc?
If it optimizes blood biomarkers in the short and long-term, then go for it! I'd test, though, to find out.
Love this video .. but … eGFR is a let peeve of mine as the calculation includes age. Therefore I don’t agree with mapping eGFR against “age” .. that’s mapping age against age. If creatinnne stays constant and age changes .. I really disagree that eGFR should change .. I’m interested in measuring my GFR not some epi derived estimate.
To avoid the age issue for eGFR, we can track creatinine, but also kidney-related measures, including Cystatin C, BUN, and uric acid. Making sure that they don't change during aging is the goal.
Is there a way to increase eGFR?
For me, a higher total vegetable intake is correlated with higher eGFR. See 4:26 of this video:
ua-cam.com/video/SsUUWliBO50/v-deo.html
? Fish vs meat? on a modified y axis. Compared to plant intake? Sorry seems like selection of studies to attain goal?
Transient TMAO elevation?
Circulating trimethylamine N-oxide levels following fish or ...pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › ...
by Z Wang - We conclude that some fish and seafood contain high levels of TMAO, and may induce a transient elevation in TMAO levels in some individuals.
Why? If choline is a transport system for fats, why start to blame choline. Should you not look at what fats causes the problems?
It's not a choline problem, it's likely a kidney function story, which is presented in the video.