Ford Slashes EV Production To Stem Losses | Dire Consequences For UK Vehicle Sector
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- Опубліковано 12 сер 2023
- Ford's foray into electric vehicles has been far from smooth. It loses money on every EV sold, meaning the better its vehicles sell the more money it hurts the business. The consequences of Ford's failure now threaten global vehicle production, with the UK particularly exposed.
So to understand what's going on, stick around as Dave Takes It On.
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Dave Takes It On was founded in 2023 and focuses primarily on content about electric vehicles and issues that impact drivers. Dave is based in the North West of the UK and owns a Tesla Model S. He regularly travels around the country, so if you see him feel free to say hello. The channel is supported by his son Jonas, who supports with thumbnails, titles, and technical aspects of the channel.
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Ford haven’t built cars in the UK for over 20 years
True although they do still make engines at Dagenham
Farley, Ford CEO, knows his market. If gasoline continues higher Ford won’t have a market.
EV’s? The U.S. is an enormous country, and it is not uncommon for Americans to take road trips of hundreds and even thousands of miles. An EV won’t make it. Only a gasoline fired auto will do. Another fine idea from our better’s in Washington D.C.!
@@jameswirth3117 Nope. I'm a Texan, worked in the oil industry for 25 years, and I've owned Teslas for the past 4 years. I've taken many long distance trips, the last being 3,500 miles round trip (Dallas to all over the Colorado Rocky Mountains, Grand Canyon, and back home). The Tesla Model Y Long Range was great. I'll never buy another ICE vehicle again.
LoL that is a big burn from the Tesla Texan Buddy 😂.
Get your facts right.
Dave, very well summed up and presented. Yes, the Tesla aim was very clear. the only questions were around "would they be able to manage to do what they aimed to do". Yes, the answer is definitely YES.
As you stated, once Tesla (and the Chinese) will hit the mass markets hard. Cheers.
You need to educate yourself regarding Tesla cars and the company fronted y musk.
He took a lotus and stuck his engine in it .
Later on the verge of bankruptcy the same global Investors who back Bill gates, him at Facebook,Richard Branson, Amazon guy etc etc ....saved the company.
As they love these self opinionated right wing nut jobs .
Musk is constantly roaming the planet with his begging bowl.
Everything. Is a dream of a better tomorrow .
Do they actually make a real profit ?
Hard to tell as they are constantly expanding due to constant investment .
So this guy whose cars were a flop suddenly gets massive investment and is on every bit of media world wide .
Why ?
One thing that's killing them is outsourcing. The legacy OEMs have massive assembly plants, massive capacity to assemble vehicles, yet have little technology of their own to produce parts. The majority of components are shipped in from suppliers, some from overseas with big transport costs, the suppliers make a profit, so do the transport companies and any warehouses they use, multiply this by thousands of components and this significantly adds up and ultimately takes away profits. It also slows development because they don't have full or sometimes any control over changes.
The legacy OEMs held all the cards not long ago and could hold suppliers to ransom, making them develop parts for their vehicles, absorb lots of development, and set up costs if they wanted the OEMs business.
As time progressed, many suppliers now hold the cards, many are specialist companies and have little - no competition, they have monopolies, their technology is protected, and they are bigger than their customers. The OEMs don't have the clout they used to have. I don't see how they can recover considering their debts. When they outsourced the parts, the skills, control, and a big percentage of profits all went with it.
Where they all F***ed up was sending the blueprints for everything to China, to have the tooling made cheaply. Of course the Chinese copied what they wanted but if Ford, VW, or GM try to copy any of the suppliers, they will be sued.
Very valid points. They are little more than assemblers but have massive factories and massive workforce. Bloated?
@@davetakesiton like a hot air balloon 😂. Another point 👉 When it comes to dealers, the OEM often dictates the amount of investment that the dealership puts in. JLR made dealerships spend big bucks setting up the dual arch architecture, most of these dealers will now be closed down and the remaining will have to implement their new house of brands architecture. Ford have forced dealers to invest something ridiculous like over 1M per site to stock their EVs. They can't sell them but have massive overheads for these fancy buildings, staff, etc.
Don't mind yourself.
The Chinese didn't "copy".
They "learned".
They basically did what US companies would have done if situations were reversed.
.
The irony is that by US (and other western) companies sending the industry "overseas" with the aim of acquiring cost savings which allowed them to make more profit (don't kid yourself that it kept prices low!), those companies and western countries have been "out capitalised" by "the communists" (who, let's not forget, are both the oldest continuous civilization on the Planet and EXPERT Traders/ Engineers/ Scholars)
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I bet they couldn't believe their luck 20+ years ago when the opportunity was presented.
.
I've been calling it
"Corporate Ego"
Holy mackerel! I knew boards of legacy companies were aloof and stuck in their ways (because of their bonus systems), but your report is absolutely flabbergasting.
Most didn't want to lose all that service income to EV's.
Service and spare parts and dealers
They'll have little choice. You can't stop evolution and progress. We didn't leave the Stone Age because we ran out of stones.
That's why GM killed the EV1. Their parts business was too big. They could have had a ten year lead on the first Tesla car with a huge experience advantage if they had just kept producing it as a niche vehicle.
Hi David, it's about time someone put it out in simple terms about how the top car manufacturers have got it so wrong when it comes to converting the average person from ICE cars to EV car. It's true, if I could buy an EV for the price of an ice car, it would be a no-brainer.
Buying an EV is for no brainers. It's the road to Soylent Green. I don't care how cheap they are, what is the appeal of a four wheeled crematorium that is far more damaging to the environment than an ICE ever was?
No brains. A trip to the vacation home up north takes 6 hours in an ice car and 10 in a coal powered ev. Who are these people where time and convenience is of no concern?
@@richardweyland116that’s BS.
Every time Ford make an EV, they lose a few more bucks.
What Dave says in this video is very obvious to me. The fact that it's not obvious for the majority of people I believe creates a life changing investment opportunity.
I would say all in and hold for 3/4 years 👍
@@markoverton5858
I'm expecting a doubling every year on average, my objective will be to buy a million pound house by 2030 without having to kill the Golden Goose. For now I'm just feeding the goose. I think it's more like keep the goose alive forever and just use the eggs when you need.
Yep agreed !! and worst case you’ll get 10% a year compounded for 10 years.
You are so right, last year my son bought a corsa electric, cost a fortune, did not include a home charger or even a 3 pin plug!!. He was late home from work 3 days a week sat at McDonald's waiting for the car to charge ready for work the next day... The day he bought it I sat in the back on the cheap seats and thought my punto was better than this... For the money he spent he could of bought a used evoque ... The cars gone now and I am not surprised 😂
If a Punto is better that the Corsa must be total crap.
Excellent analysis Dave. Well written and presented. Funny; if you’d said this even a few years ago no one would have listened. Now the writing is most definitely on the wall.
Hasn't Tesla canceled the Mexican megafactory that was due to start production this year (2024)?
Great Video Dave. I have always bought Ford, because to me it was a family business (my Mum and Dad worked there and I did my apprenticeship there) I have only bought Ford Fiesta's, Escort's, Sierra's and Focus's. However there is no way on earth I could afford to buy a Mach E. and of course they recently announced no more Fiesta's are to be built, they want to pursue the luxury market? Surely you can only have a few manufacturers in a luxury market? I do fear poor old Henry would be turning in his grave, (as the saying goes) and really wanting to get out and sack the current management.
Poor R&D has ensured that Ford hasn't a clue when it comes to making EV's vehicles, here or in the states, if Ford survives it will be a shrunken husk of what it once was.
Another problem is the market is being distorted by company cars just like in the 80s. Read the other day 80 percent of ev and phev sales are company cars. So theyll flood the used market and cause residual values to fall. So could be some bargains to be had.
And tax incentives. The second owner doesn't have these so residuals will be affected.
You mean companies bought cars in the 80s and are still doing it today? maybe I missed something?
*Dave, with the greatest respect, you can see this. Why don’t others?*
Your observations and comments are utterly spot on!
I’m simply astounded that everyone else can’t grasp this.
Great analysis Dave. What you didn’t mention is the massive push back on EV’s in the media and on-line and lobbying against the ICE sales phase out deadline. This is clearly part of a well funded campaign using the same playbook as used by the big tobacco, oil and meat industries. It might buy them some time but can’t stave off the inevitable, but what damage to the environment will it cause in the meantime?
The legacy car manufacturers are failing to make profits on EV's because they haven't evolved their manufacturing processes . Where as Tesla have constantly evolved and streamlined the process , from the chassis to wiring looms . Tesla make large margins on their cars whilst still being the most efficient EV's with the best ranges and charging infrastructure .
I completely agree.
Richard Feynman's famous conclusion to his report on the shuttle Challenger accident, which arose again in the Columbia accident, is "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."
I believe the transition to EVs and renewable energy is one of those forces of Nature that no matter how powerful you are, you cannot win against it.
We're STARTING to see why he bought *X" (formally Tweety)
.
*ONE* main purpose was FUD reduction.
You can "advertise "
Or
You can reduce BAD "advertising"
.
The pendulum is swinging.
X is huge, just not yet
@@davefitzpatrick4841Elon Musk and Tesla have received massive government subsidies for years , plus government ( taxpayers ) funded charging stations , pushing the EV experiment is no different than the forcing the Jab on people.😡
You seem to think Tesla is the only pure electric threat to legacy makers, it's not. MG, BYD, GWM Ora & Geely have new options coming soon that will be lower in price than £25,000. The MG4 already makes the Astra look silly and the BYD Dolphin makes the Corsa Electric look ridiculous. Add Tesla's Model 2, the VW ID2, Dacia Spring and the huge range of Chinese models to the list and Ford, Stellantis, Nissan, Toyota and others have nothing to coompete with.
Yes correct but non-Teslas will always be the android cheap option vs the Tesla’s Apple iPhone, preferred even if you can’t afford one. MG and others are good but at this stage budget. Tesla advances are faster than any others, they are pulling ahead.
I thought it was about Ford.
Very good piece! Thanks.
Thanks Dave, I like your analysis and and the analogy with your property investment, and you make a very persuasive argument.
Scary times for the Legacy manufacturers, huge disruption incoming.
I agree with the analysis, but... The western world is really run by large corporations who employ lots of people. If the car corporates go bust, governments willl face mass unemployment. GM and Chrysler were bailed out in 2008 (I think). Before that was British Leyland in 75-95, but that eventually did fail. Disruption, yes, but can it all be allowed to fail?
Huge disruption is actually here!
@@john1703
"Can they be allowed to fail?"
.
Well, if the industry is being replaced by a series of others which when combined provide the greatest opportunity for any country, Government, and workforce since (probably including) The (first) Industrial Revolution, it would seem prudent to invest in the relevant technology and industry, thus providing, or at least giving the best chance to generational prosperity, plus energy security?
.
So my answer is yes.. it can.
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If you REALLY think about it, "industrial disruption" happens frequently.
I've seen 4 just in industries I was associated with.
.
The difference is, the disruption that's coming (has started) is multi technology, industry wide (ALL of them) and will disrupt *society* as well.
It's also inevitable.
@@rogerstarkey5390but save all those jobs around horses. We can't allow them to build cars to replace horses ;-)
What I have learned about EV vehicles, I would have to be stupid to buy one! Repair cost, charging time, lack of charging stations, possible battery fires!
Ford's choice of the VW ID platform for their Explorer model is a strong indication that they have already thrown in the towel. It's looking like the legacy manufacturers will focus just on 2 or 3 EV platforms. The problem is that these platforms are not technically competitive with Tesla, the Chinese brands and Hyundai/Kia. They have a lot of catching up to do without the revenue streams to fund the necessary work.
They missed the window to take the mass market while Tesla was building up revenue with S an X
WOW how refreshing and insightful! Thanks Dave!! B
Always try to please Brian
That was a very good presentation Mr Dave. Kept me glued.
Quality/Price ratio that is the metric that differentiate success from failure on a "free" market. PR firms will tell you that it is the Value/Price ratio and tell the manufacturers that they can increase the value with their marketing campaign. But in the end of the day the buyers will always compare how much bang they had for their buck with others and sooner or later the Quality/Price ratio will be the winner.
I don't think it is that simple.
Nissan did launch a budget EV in 2013 at £20,000 for the family sized Leaf.
Sales were Ok but not spectacular.
Such a clear explanation! Thank you.
...Spot Onnnn ... They are screwed...
I did not realise how bad things were inside FORD but I am not surprised. You called it. Honour is due.
Once in a while
The legacy companies have had it too easy for too long and they've been caught napping. Lot's of great points made Dave and a good analogy too. Thinking about your recent video on how little you've done with your Tesla over the last four years, these companies will not be relishing the loss of revenue from parts, servicing etc because EV's don't need nearly as much aftercare to keep them going. Cutting back on EV production now will further result in their decline and I suspect that many of them may not exist in the auto market in ten years from now unless they start listening to their customers.
Good points there’s not much to do to an electric motor, bit like my fridge, it just works all on its own
No one is buying Ford's or GM's they became unweilding in management and failed to develop desirable reliable vehicles and are now playing catch up while more modern manufacturers have developed cheaper better around practical vehicles.
Nice one Dave - very edifying. Thank you.
An incisive analysis. Sadly little has changed in the car industry. The executives at Fords's, back in the late 80's all trooped off to Japan to see how it could be done, sat on their thumbs and still dealing with long lead times and profiteering
You have forgotten about infrastructure. Here in the uk we do not have enough chargers to support the move to BEVs. So Legacy companies have until we do to compete with Tesla and the Chinese.
72% of EV owners can and do charge at home and there is a massive boom in workplace chargers. Chargers are already here. How do you think all the EVs drive right now?
@@davetakesiton until we get universal fast lampost charging, those of us who cannot charge at home will have a problem. This is mainly smaller houses and flats. So you could say BEVs are for rich people at the moment
It has often been said that it is even harder to make a profit on a small car rather than on a mid or large car. On the other hand many people will prefer to start their EV journey with the lesser, second car. Families who run 2 cars have more money than those who run a single vehicle and, if you can afford 2, you will probably not use the smaller cheaper car for the longer family runs anyway so the specs of a small EV are less of a risk. I think GM got it right when they started with the Bolt - just a pity that their LG-supplied batteries catch fire on early cars.
Yes, it is strange that GM never seriously tried to make the Bolt a mass market EV. Battery aside, it was never intended to be a smash hit
@@davetakesiton apparently they are bring it back
Elon Musk mentioned that the auto companies make their money selling parts. If EV’s become dominant in the next ten years, and those vehicles don’t need as many replacement parts then the legacy American companies ( Ford, GM and the old Chrysler) are doomed. Markets reward fabulously and they punish severely. Ford stock traded today at $12.50. In 1998 the shares traded as high as $38, the shares are off by almost 60% over a period of 25 years. Certainly not a sign of health.
@@jameswirth3117True
One really big problem that Ford and all the US manufacturers have is that Americans don't want small, high quality cars. Here in the US, we buy pickups and huge SUV's whether we need them or not. Very few Americans will buy a small, high quality car. They always buy the biggest car they can afford, so any small EV they buy has to be the same price as the equivalent ICE car, and cheap. That rules out engineering two separate products. They have to compromise by making two versions of the same car, which in our case, is an SUV. So few people buy any size of sedan or coupe here anymore. If an ICE Golf is not economically viable, neither is an electric.
Ford has made mistakes, for sure, but they are forced to make what sells, which is big-assed trucks and SUVs. And Chrysler dropped their last small car, the 200 in 2017, due to lack of sales.
Here, many people can't afford to drop $40,000 on a new EV every 3 years, if they are racking up 35,000 miles a year, as many do. The prospect of replacing an expensive battery at a little more than 100,000 miles will scare a lot of people off.
Ford haven't paid attention or created smaller EVs quick enough. The popularity of the SUV in the market seems wrong to me. I previously owned a VW Touran and before that Vauxhall Zafira, Renault Megan Scenic. MPV's in my opinion are better than SUV's but the VW ID Buzz which is supposed to the replacement for the Touran, but can you remove the seats? And look at the price of the ID Buzz..... considerably higher than the Touran.
Tesla and their price fluctuations are not popular with existing owners especially those on PCP contracts.
There's also something to do with crash testing. I can't remember the exact details, but with the rise of SUV's the small car has to be able to withstand impacts at much higher positions than before, as well as the traditional lower positions. Add to that, an SUV can be manufactured in virtually the same time with a few more materials, then can be sold for considerably more.
Result: Nobody wants to make the small car.
Dave told you why Ford hasn't concentrated on small EVs.
Small car.
Small profit per unit.
Large numbers to break even.
BIG factory .... EXPENSIVE!
.
As Dave also said, if they'd done it 10 (15?) years ago, THEY would be winning now and Tesla (probably) wouldn't exist.
Imagine that Tesla even reached the Model 3 "production hell" phase with a competitor in production?
It would have killed them.
.
Now, it's increasingly apparent Ford CAN'T have a large enough factory, AND guaranteed "in house" (ish) battery supply, AND a profitable EV (of ANY type) before.... 2026. (Factory, 2025, but vehicle and battery ramp takes time!)
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"Tesla price fluctuations"?
.
They TOLD you that prices increased (proactively!) due to supply constraints and commodity inflation (Lithium 4x?)
It's the same issue that others (who cried about Tesla raising prices) are facing NOW because they weren't proactive.
.
In June 2022(?) Elon TOLD you (paraphrased)
"Prices are frankly *embarrassing* at the moment, we will adjust them down as conditions allow"
And they did.
.
Don't forget, for the last 19 years the FUD mantra had been
"EVs too expensive!!!!"
.
You can't have it both ways.
@@mrg-ghx8052
Probably the side impact/ rollover tests.
More headroom, better airbag deployment, better crush protection in a roll (IF you can roll an EV)
@@rogerstarkey5390 There's always been the possibility of being hit by a much larger vehicle, we kind of all reluctantly accept that if that happens were probably screwed, but as the landscape changes and the average vehicle gets larger and heavier, that possibility increases. The safety requirements must accommodate the averages so will become way more challenging and rightly so.
Another great video Dave. Very compelling, but depressing.
Reality is often not pretty. Why can’t we see this as an opportunity? Why just give up?
Here in the UK, the average selling price for a new Car in 2023 is a whopping £39,000. The Tesla Model 3 and Y are already pretty close to that. I also priced up the smaller, lower range, BMW iX1 and when specced to match the Model Y, you get to a whopping £61,030 compared to £44,990 for the Y. Ok the Beemer is AWD and 130kw charging and the Tesla is RWD with 170kw charging but I just cannot see who would pay and extra sixteen grand for that. Plus MG4 starting at £27k is a low bar for EV adoption compared to what you would have to pay for an ICE EQUIVALENT.
The average car new or used is £17,000 up from £12,000 just 3 years ago.
I just sold my 6 year old KIA for just £1000 less than what I paid for it new.
Small petrol cara are in demand.
It’s awesome news to hear that car makers are loosing money on EV’s because then governments will have to reverse these ice car bans and we can carry on enjoying and listening to the music of a petrol engine. Makes me smile
More chance of being bitten by a lettuce
Thanks Dave good job
hi dave if you were to buy a new e.v. today which would you choose?????
Watch this space, my Model S is out of warranty next year and I’m looking. It will be a video when I decide.
Well said that Man.
“Never be the most expensive house on the street.” No idea who said it but I think it’s something to stick to
Unless you’re selling it
@davetakesiton
Especially when you're selling it! I hope you get your improvements money back if you ever have to sell. Cheap houses in expensive neighborhoods appreciate. But spot on in video---one of the few to read the Secret Plan!
They knew what was coming, everyone in the EV community even told them to make good EVs, but they mostly ignored it in the most Nokia and Kodak style. What a shame.
They thought, it would be enough to satisfy the few car freaks with expensive cars and not build cars for the masses, some are really openly hating on the masses why they refuse to spend double the money as before on cars.
How can they be so blind...
Closing the eyes, holding their ears and sing:
🎼🎵"lalalala, nothing is happening, everything is good..." 🎶
got It in one
Nice one Dave. One thing we could argue though, is that in general, Legacy quality control is streets ahead of where Tesla has been for the last 5 years. I paid more for my BMW i4 than I would have done for a model Y, but it is extremely well screwed together. All panel gaps are absolutely perfect, the interior trim is immaculate, and not a single blemish on the paintwork. No rattles or squeaks either.
Had I paid £55k for a model Y, and had any of these issues, I would have never heard the end of it from the wife.
Ditto.
This is exactly why I walked away from buying a Model 3 pre-pandemic. The example I looked at seemed like an indifferently assembled kit car...... I'm not convinced Tesla have sufficient consistent mass production experience yet...... Drive-train = superb, but build quality = Must try harder.......
German cars aren’t that reliable compared to Japanese and have short warranties
@@ianheath6797 The BMWs I have owned for the last 15 years have been very reliable. The only repair to one of them was a single suspension bush after 116,000 miles.
My i4 now has an 8 year, 100,000 mile warranty on the battery and a 3 year, unlimited mileage warranty on the reat of the car.
Maybe I've been unlucky. I've had a Mercedes C250 and a Vw Arteon both of which I sold after a year. The Merc had apparently incurable brake problems shuddering that still persisted after replacing all the discs and pads under warranty.The VW had only 10k on the clock when it went. Plagued with weird electrical troubles, it was in the dealers more than I had it. A previous BMW 525 had it's auto box pack up at 50k miles - a very expensive repair. The 3 year warranty in the rest of a car (ex battery) is pretty poor. My wife had a Kia Sportage . When the air con packed at 6 years the entire system was replaced foc. What would that have cost in an Audi, BMW Merc etc?@@Nick_Smith1970
The problem with EVs in general and Tesler in particular is that given thermal runaway, poor fit and finish, with mechanica problems and software glitches (which Tesler keep denying ) and least of all the promises of a new tesler soon; one only has to look at the trucks and pick up to see delusion at work.
WOW! Great piece this, gotta share it.
Cheers
You forgot to mention the so called 'luxury car tax' which the UK takes from anyone who buys a car which retails for £40,000. A lot of family cars are now approaching that price, and a lot of EVs are over that price now, and from 2025 will also be liable for it, which will, with inflation the way it is, probably add £600+ to the annual cost of ownership.
Our typical incompetent, short sighted and easily lobbied government for you.
In May 2023 there was a Blacked out F150 Raptor R 700 hp. in the Showroom in Los Angeles Dealership for $260,000 USA Dollar. I had taken my 2022 Roush Mustang and at the time Price did not change and keep in mind interest rates in August 2023 (830 Credit Score) was 3.4 % now in November 2023 the price dropped $4,000 and interest rates are at depending on how much the Loan is with a Minimum 50% Value of the Car's down payment would be 23% interest rate, to 70% downpayment for 7.9% interest rates. Loan offices are not giving loans of 10 to 20% Downpayment anymore... the Irony is Dealerships are asking Manufactures for Help.. Dealerships caused the Economy Crash and the Union Workers Strike made it Worse. Markups are reminesant to 2008 Real Estate Crash, 👨🏻👍🏻🏎🏎🏁🏁Great video Report on all things Automotive Economy. I will never Buy an Electric Vehicle
£39 grand... for an Astra? 'kin hell! You're NEVER going to recoup the extra on the screen price over the ICE model through the 'cost saving' of electric. As for the depreciation too, I'd bet cash money that in a couple of years, youd be lucky to see £20 grand back on the resale.
The best investment you can make with £20k here in the UK is to buy Tesla shares through a Stock and Shares ISA.
Most people in the UK are not aware that every year they can invest £20k in a Stock and Shares ISA with all profits being tax free. I don't know of any other country that is so generous. I've started doing this quite late in life as a fast-track to a comfortable retirement, I'm on my 3rd year. Of course it doesn't have to be Tesla although IMO there's no other company that provides a better risk/reward. This should be taught in school, specially young people with decades ahead of them would have a big advantage knowing this as they would have the time to see their investment grow exponentially.
Compared to buying property to rent, this would provide you the chance of a much faster growth, it would be passive, no need to look for renters, nothing to fix, you can sell just the amount you want whenever you want without having to pay estate agent, solicitor etc
Been there done that, shares are doing well, bought at the right time. Kept buying, not got round to selling any yet
Cheers an I agree
Real Estate 101. Buy worst house in the best neighborhood.
Great philosophy but out of my budget
@@davetakesiton Out of mine as well. I rent and feel I’ve made a wise choice. Real Estate is a money loser unless you’re experienced or completely ruthless and do t mind ripping off the less fortunate.
Wonderful explanation
What do you expect when a American companies business is not doing well, the 1 st. Thing is to close oversea branches
Totally agree with your excellently presented vlog, over the years it’s become ha
rder to work on most cars vans etc, it’s been a deliberate move by all legacy car companies to complicate access to components to
pull money out of our pockets at the
dealers, it’s a fact that new cars only become profitable is when the warranty runs out and our wallets are hit for horrendous costs, just to hook up a diagnostic computer is £40/100 , that’s before the problem is found, for this I have no problem seeing them go to the wall, I might have had some sympathy but taking the piss out of Elon when he truly hoped they would help as he offered his patterns for free, once again Dave great vlog I kinda think it’s pearls to swine moment, 🤪
Spot on!
And yet we still don’t have the infrastructure for electric cars. We simply don’t have the charging points. Think of all the blocks of flats and terraced streets, I’d love to know how this is all gonna work.
Sit back and watch
I have an excellent Skoda Citego e EV, 2020. Only 900 made and sold out in days. It proves that making smaller cheaper EV's would have worked but industry greed and big oil corruptes this.
I really like the way you present your videos. Interesting background information, building a solid case of what holds for the future. One point I would like to discuss though. You said that if Legacy Auto had built mass-market cars (Astra, Fiesta etc.) in EV form, but sold at the same price as the ICE versions, then Tesla would be a niche producer of higher end models, with much reduced sales. That is absolutely true - except they would make a loss on each vehicle, leading to catastrophic overall businesses losses. Many thought that Legacy Auto, when they "got into gear" , as it were, would simply switch to EV manufacturing overnight ("because they already make cars, right ?") and Tesla would be toast. But the technical challenges of designing, developing and producing EVs, (weight, aerodynamics, batteries, thermal and electronic control systems, software etc.) are many and various, as Legacy found out. They simply could not make them at the same price as their ICE models.
(Cars are now "computers on wheels", and the Business model for Legacy is to buy multiple electronic modules, from different manufacturers, and assemble them. And the difficulty now, is making a coherent "overall control interface", for the many diverse software architectures, languages, and interfaces embedded in the multitude of modules. And at the same time incorporating the control interfaces needed for the electric drive systems. VW, for example, is still struggling with this problem, and they have spent billions on it. It turns out that the " elephant in the room" is software. Absolute top talent is required for EVs, and sorry guys - Tesla gets most of the top talent !)
Great comment. Start with the software and then just make something to put it into. I have said many times, it doesn't take long for a computer engineer to learn how to hang a car door accurately, it does take longer for a door hanger to learn to programme. Somebody said Apple should get in on the act. If they do, they will find it far easier than Legacy
@@davetakesiton they did and backed out.
Love the video! One small quibble:
The "Model 2" will likely start selling in H1 (first half of) 2025. Not 2024 unfortunately.
And I don't think that guarantees it will actually be sold in the UK, right away.
Hoping to buy one in 2028 when the bugs are ironed out :)
Yes, 2025 ramping up, but I honestly expect to see some produced Q4 2024. Don't rule out Berlin or Shanghai, it might be quick and easy to add an extra production line or two at each. The Model 2 will be an instant mass market champion. If you see one advertised I'd reserve one, the core of the vehicle will not suffer early faults, its their existing tech.
I have a nine and a half year old Nissan Note and hope to replace it with an electric car. The Tesla "Model 2" seems to be the best option, but will consider the supermini offerings from other manufacturers. Because I keep my car in the garage, the battery type will be important and I only want a car with an LFP battery - other battery types have a greater risk of catching on fire and I don't want the house burning down.
Hopefully my existing car will last until a suitable electric car arrives.
There aren’t any “bugs” with Tesla !
Utterly thrilled with my Model Y which was one of the first 10 delivered in Europe !
Really interesting video Dave. It really will be interesting when the model 2 comes out
Interesting no! Dramatic, dynamic, outstanding Yes
I don't disagree with the logic of why legacy car makers are in so much trouble, however I thing some of them are too big to be allowed to fail.
There are so many jobs that could be lost that I think politicians will step I to prop up the likes of Ford and GM long enough for them to become competitive in the EV market. I also suspect that the EU will not allow their car industry to be destroyed and neither will Japan.
I could be wrong but I just cannot see politicians in the US and the EU allowing their car industry to go down the toilet.
That’s logical but can they finance clean air and EVs and and offer subsidies to buyers then bail out an outdated industry when money is tight? I’m not so sure they will
Why would they need to offer subsidies to buyers if the cars are priced the same as ICE cars? That's the aim.
I would also poi t out there US car makers have been bailed out by the US government in the past and German state governments are major shareholders in the German car industry.
You also need to consider the costs of letting these very large car makers go to the wall. There would be a devastating impact on economies and any politician who allowed that would have a very difficult time explaining their inaction to their electorate.
I could be wrong, but I get the impression that legacy auto are actually losing money on every EV sold.
Even at the exorbitant prices shown in this video.
If true, a bailout would be like throwing gasoline to the fire.
@@alexs9137 you could be right but what will politicians do to save their car industries or will they just let them go and suffer the consequences?
@@johnmason5626 They will not let their car makers get put out of business by the chinese, maybe tesla though
Great analysis. But BMW and Mercedes EVs are selling really well because their segment is premium. People who buy premium cars can often pay extra for EVs.
Agreed but while the build quality is superb, the tech quality is second rate and badly integrated. Can they keep their loyal buyers?
@davetakesiton I think the traditional premium manufacturers can respond. BMW switching to Android based infotainment and I already think their electric motors are high tech and Mercedes cars are very energy efficient.
So glad I got my EV when I did. I ordered my BMW i4 in March 2022, and took delivery in Nov 2022. Paid £59k for the M Sport Pro with 19" rims, electric tow bar, Comfort Plus pack and Harmon Kardon sound.
The exact same spec now is £10k more. 😧
Deal! That's quite a package
I've been waiting for the new Kona.
It's out to pre order now, and the top spec, big engined version cost about £33,525. The same trim level big battery version is £43,095...
That's a good price, let me know what you decide
Life is short. Just buy the tesla.
They'll make it up in volume...
We're witnessing the death of the legacy American auto manufacturers. They've been building vehicles with too much programed attrition for too long.
I'll just keep running my diesel as long as I can get fuel and parts
Even if they make the EVs cheaper im not buying one until the charging infrastructure is in place. Here in New Zealand i can't see that happening for a very long time.
Your choice but you’re missing out
The legacy auto companies were too slow to move to EV, as Elon said prototypes are easy production is hard. The software and supply chains the legacy have invested into is old world technology.
If the legacy car makers did jump earlier, it would just mean there would be far more frustrated people unable to charge because the charging infrastructure is decades from catching up, before charging your car at home was a thing, we were being told reduce your heating and cooling so the grid could cope with the load.
Are you in the UK.:
@@AlanWilliams-su4bs no, Australia, not that it matters, no country is ev ready.
@@Ronhickmott I would agree that no country is totally EV ready but that’s no reason not to move towards that goal, particularly in sunbelt countries like Oz.
It doesn't matter how cheap EVs are, for the millions of people who cannot charge at home, they are just not practical.
Can you fill up with petrol at home? What a stupid argument. Go out and fill up once a week, just like you do.
@@davetakesiton I refuel my petrol Golf once every three weeks. This only takes five minutes. I have not had to buy my own petrol pump or pay a thousand pounds for a home charger.
20,000 aint shit to completely renovate even a shed
must come and see your shed
Ford will be launching the electric Puma next year. VW will be launching the iD2 (Polo) and its stablemates will also be releasing their versions. Citroen will launch an electric C3 and Fiat will launch an electric Panda, both priced around £25,000 in next summer. Renault will launch the electric 4 & 5 and they are predicted to cost less than £25,000.
Yet the petrol versions are sub £18k. Do they expect to find people already struggling will stick with the brand and just find an extra £6 or £7k? See how that works out
Love to see someone with no home charging hitch up their caravan go on hols then try to find accessible charging en route.Then calculate battery range.
Perhaps your question is your own answer. I would never do that. I would plan my route and stops and check availability a long time before I ever considered getting round to hitching my caravan. Maybe that’s just me
There's still the question of how do you power an EV that has replaced existing ICE vehicles? There isn't a country on the globe that has the spare electricity generation needed to push that conversion, not to mention the raw materials to make the batteries don't appear to exist.
Ask Norway, they are world leaders in EV adoption and they cope perfectly well
Did it take Ford so long to figure out success in eV is not just having designs and models, but having access to the critical minerals and metals, and working them in a super efficient brand new process ? Tesla has proven it that for sure. Does Ford ?
Arrogance! Ford believed it could just buy what it wanted when it wanted it at a better price than Tesla and make them faster and cheaper.
@davetakesiton Look at Munro's teardown comparison of Tesla and Ford EV cooling systems and you'd run a mile from Ford.
You seem to have overlooked the fact that EVs are almost completely worthless for what internal combustion cars are mostly used for. Pretty much none of what I use my V8 powered internal combustion vehicles for could even come close to being done with EVs. And what about those millions and millions of people out there who depend on $2000-$5000 USED cars, and couldn't even begin to afford a $25,000 car, which would be at least $35,000 after all the taxes and fees? Ford and GM should get back to what they used to do. Build reliable and long lasting $25,000 internal combustion cars for wealthy people, which could then be bought used for $2000-$5000 by everybody else when the wealthy people sold or traded them for another new car.
Have a guess what price used EVs will be when new cost £25k and Tesla Model 3s are ten years old
the E V is ready ! the batt. is not !
interesting video. but you forget 2 interesting points. In the early days, battery replacement and disposal was very very uncertain - and still is in. many ways - and EV sales will be very limited by convenient dependable stations. They're growing, but behind. We needed a more nimble company likeTesla who could outdone GM Ford MBetc.
True but many people discovered the hype was not accurate. 72% of EV owners in UK can and do charge at home and most of them never charge anywhere else. Even I do 70% at home.
@@davetakesiton what if you live in a flat or house without a drive? there are millions of those in UK
Small ev equal small range No good to me Very interesting vidio
Price price price .-To much !!
14800miles on my new 72 plate tourneo connect 2.0 litre diesel active glow plugs gone 7th November 2023 still ford can't get parts wtf new world orders
I watched a YT from
"China observer",china loses money on every EV sold and the chargers have inflated so much people have to speed hours queuing because the power is turned off sometimes
..EVs might be an answer if they are plenty of charger that are switched on and the cars dont BLOW UP.
Is clever marketing as people want to be higher up in driving position to feel more important
I think your prognosis is spot on, as you say, a sub £25k EV by Tesla would wipe all these overpriced Vauxhalls etc out of the water. As another example look at the price of an electric Fiat 500!!
Hey, I'm getting old and my heart can't take it. Who would pay that?
For me its not just price its about value for money. I'm a big fan of Tesla but don't want a larger car so will wait for their Model 2 a smaller hatchback. How on earth will legacy auto compete with Teslas £28ish hatchback with Teslas reliability and technology.
Bankruptcy
The trouble is, in the UK, we don't have the charging infrastructure needed to make EVs practical. Outside the main conurbations chargers are few and far between.
Hi Adrian, did you know when the first cars hit the road, we didn't have any petrol stations in the UK at all? and when we invented the airplane, we had no runways, just fields? and when Edison invented the phone, he had no-one to call? Not enough chargers yet? Let's just give up, far easier
Yes but we haven't just invented EV's have we?@@davetakesiton
@@davetakesiton
I hear what you're saying Dave but the number of cars on the road and the fact that our society is built on the need for cheap transport means that we are not ready for the replacement of the ICE with EV's.
The battery tech is currently at the 2mp digital camera level..and who wants a 2mp digital camera?
EV's have a place in urban envoronments but are currently nowhere near capable of replacing ICE cars. I'm all for reducing pollution but once the realisation that CC is a myth permeates society I think many of the crazy policies proposed by the WEF (and in turn the Governments of the World) will be knocked on the head.
Who says we want to buy electric anyway.Good story though
I don't think the vote grabbing Politicians have helped matters flip flopping from petrol to Diesel then Diesel back to Petrol and now Petrol to EV never for a moment giving a thought of the Monumental Cost to Motor Manufacturers to plan ahead or switch models at the drop of a hat or even if the Electric Grid will be able to cope with charging EVs
EVs have no resale value and if you drive it over 100k miles you need to replace the battery which costs almost as much as the car did. EVs are a niche market and will never see mass adoption.
In essence you are correct, but don’t forget that legacy makers have to scale up production and refit factories. If you have limited production capacity, then they will use it for higher end more profitable models until the market can take the volume. The biggest threat is the dealer network, as margins are low, typically 5% of new cars, much higher on 2nd hand. Their money is made from servicing. As evs don’t require it, their long term business model is problematic.
Yes, two issues here as you point out. a) They make their money from servicing and parts, they don't want EVs. b) They have masses of experience, decades, in mass production, so they should have refitted the factories to by-pass the 10 year learning curve that Tesla had to go through and head directly for the wide open mass £20k EV market all their millions of customers are sat there waiting for. Why didn't they? see a)
As you chose Ford, I remember when Dagenham produced everything to make a car. It appears trying to go cheap has bitten them by outsourcing. The supplier can name the price, delivery and most importantly the quality. Ford and others, I think VW made every part themselves, tried to compete with the Japanese and came in a poor second. Ford and Leyland got in to bed with Mazda and Honda, but appear to have learnt nothing in ideas, procedures and marketing. Now these former giants have lost their places and do not have the finance and infrastructure to compete with Asia.
Mazda and Honda do not produce anything comparable to Ford's trucks and service vehicles line up. Yes, overall the Japanese are more efficient and reliable, but that's a different issue.
When you bought an ICE car you were buying basically an engine - EV are basically all the same just different size batteries with similar performance.
What??? I bought a computer on wheels that drives itself and my 7 seater family saloon sees off £1/2 million Ferraris and Lamborghinis. Not at all basically the same. Get out and go and have a look at one and a test drive.
"What Dave said"
They couldnt have done a small ev hatch for £25, so great clip, but you are guessing they could have done that. The EU and planning laws and the governments are to blame. What we need is micro cars like the 1960s doing 100-200 mpg. The customers are greedy wanting more. But the customer is king? They want SUVs well you will have to pay for them. Other countries Japan and China have smaller cars on sale.
100-200 mpg in the 60's, I was there and never saw one. In the 70's I took part in a sponsored Citroen 2CV challenge to try to achieve 100mpg on an old WW2 airfield driving at a constant 40mph; we failed but raised a good sum anyway. Give us a clue
You just did me a major favour now I know even Tesla Batteries are Chinese built no thanks no way I will stick with old ICE where the fire is some what controllable.
Watch it again, Tesla make their own batteries in USA for their US EV market, holding the record for being the most US based car company in America. They buy Chinese for their Chinese market. I suggest you don't go to China and buy one
I would not touch any EV not interested the truth came out a while back in 10,000 petrol or diesel cars average is 1 to 2 cars go on fire in EV it is 3 to 4 average @@davetakesiton
Tesla didn’t make profit from selling the cars. Subsidies and selling carbon credits were their revenue incomes for years. The fords and vw are going to demand a level playing field on the subsidies or will pull out of markets and leave the politicians to explain to the electorate why they can’t have a new car and all second hand cars cost a fortune.
I do hope that Tesla build a sub 25k car but it won’t happen. The model 3 was supposed to be 35k before ev discounts and it isn’t. Elon has form on promising things that don’t happen. The thing I hope they do with the model 2 is make it actually small not the oversize monsters that are crusing around at the moment.
wow, quite a unique viewpoint. GM went bust and was bailed out by the government. Tesla makes a profit from running its business and repaid its loan early in full. Re: 35k Model 3, they were $35k when introduced and even today with $7500 credit are still $35k to buy, get your facts right please
Dave, I hope you got this wrong in one sense, but a cheap Tesla looks very attractive.
Apple copied the LG Prada, which won the 2005 international design award.
Upcoming Raw material shortages (lithium, copper, manganese and others, needed for EVs) WILL knobble electric car manufacturing and sales.
There is no shortage of materials currently and none predicted. I read science literature. Batteries can be recycled 15 years hence as they come to the end of their design life
Nice mention of the Dyson Hoover 😂😂😂😂. I wonder if people will be referring to all electric cars as Tesla, the Ford Tesla!
Nice thought