Why were SO MANY classic rock artists struggling in the 1990s?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 13 січ 2025
- Rock Daydream Nation is joined by Todd Evans and Davey Cretin in another record label panel discussion...This time going back to the 90s and the era of grunge/alternative music.
#classicrock #90srockmusic #grunge #defleppard #alternativerock #rocktalk #patbenatar #styx #davidcoverdale #whitesnake #prince
Also check out the channels that I have had the pleasure of guesting on:
The Contrarians
Sea of Tranquility
Grab a Stack of Rock
Grants Rock Warehouse
Tim's Vinyl Confessions
My Music Corner
Metalchat Podcast
Rock and Metal Invasion
Curlessmania
Please check out Rock Daydream Nation on twitter @roknrollcitizen
Also on Instagram and TikTok
Really enjoyed this one guys!
Thanks. Really appreciate the feedback!
Great show! I was the target demographic for music marketing for grunge so it was interesting to get a different perspective. I can't agree enough with Peter's point on Alanis Morrissette being the primary example of what young women wanted from music at the time. I actually loved Pat Benatar and grew up with her music, but she was very much my mother's music by the early 90s. I wasn't aware of Benatar putting out any music at that time, likely - as I've learned from this show - because she was working in genres that I wouldn't have been exposed to via rock radio as a teen.
Thanks Tia...Appreciate your feedback. Was a blast to do!
Enjoyed the discussion, thanks. Wish you had focused more on emerging acts who released great albums during this time but didn't fit the grunge template, weren't successful and got dropped by the record label, bands like Love/Hate (Wasted in America), Galactic Cowboys (Space in Your Face) and Enuff Z'nuff (Strength). They really got hurt.
Thanks for the feedback Greg! It was certainly troubled times for bands that did not fit the mould...
Great discussion - I'm only 12 minutes in and I've got some thoughts. Like Pat Benatar, a lot of artists from the 70s (of course, Pat Benatar's first album is 79), were young enough in the 80s to be able to ride the wave of change as rock and metal changed. But by the 90s, they - AND their audiences - had aged enough that they couldn't keep up. Most music fans had reached the age where they were getting into their careers and having kids that focusing on music fell by the wayside. Peter's comment about Alanis Morissette is instructive, in that the average music consumer tends to be younger, and at a certain point artists who try to stay relevant begin to show their age. KISS is a great example of that. In the 80s they could get away with trying to stay relevant. (Todd JUST mentioned that as I type this). By the 90s they were headed toward disaster. I think a great corallary to this discussion is the question of why were so many classic rock artists able to eventually regain or even surpass their heydays? For example, Iron Maiden? Okay, I've got 35 minutes left...
Great show guys, really interesting discussion. How about those artists that almost sat out the 90s & only released 1 or 2 albums such as Tom Petty & Bruce Springsteen? For me what’s interesting is those that ‘survived’ Grunge. As you say Aerosmith, Bon Jovi & GNR. Others included Bryan Adams & Meat Loaf (Bat Out Of Hell II) who appealed to a broader audience, not just rock fans.
Thanking you!...Thats a great tangent Parish...Rock artists that sat on the bench for lengthy periods...
What a great topic and discussion!
Great episode!
Thanks Samuel!
Ain't no rock legends destroyed by 'Grunge'. If they're already rock legends, they always will be. The only thing destroying them would be the law of physics. Many have passed, but they're still legends and 'Grunge' ain't got nothing on them.
Bands breaking up. Bands changing styles. Bands experimenting. Bands imploding. Bad label management. Bands into their second and third decades. None of these have anything to do with the Seattle bands in the early 90's. Every decade has experienced new trends and caused labels to pull moneys for the "new" and financial sure thing. The 90's were no different.
Pat Benatar said this as to why they did the blues album:
“Whenever you come up with something completely different, they always have a heart attack,” Benatar says cheerfully. “Then you give them a little oxygen and they calm down. “I really had begun to feel boxed in,” she explains. “After 12 years of doing rock, it was time to move on. I’m 38 and a mother. I’m light years away from the person I was when I started out. The problem with success is that it after a while it strangles your creativity. You start worrying too much about chart numbers and sales figures. I felt locked into the same old rock attitude. When you have a certain amount of recognition, you just can’t go out and make mistakes gracefully. So finally, I just said, ‘OK, here we go. Let’s do it!’”
The "True Love" album is outstanding and of course it wasn't going to sell like "Hit Me with Your Best Shot" but who cares! The follow up album "Gravity's Rainbow" is one of my favorite Benatar studio albums. Popularity and quality have nothing to do with each other. And she had a full decade of outstanding success. Also, she is still out touring and kicking serious butt. So, in the end, she is still here.
Linda Ronstadt has nothing to do with "Grunge" whatsoever! She had two huge decades of massive success, AND in multiple styles. Her legacy wasn't harmed by the 90's in anyway. Still recognized as one of the all-time greatest vocalists, Kennedy Center honors, Grammys...none of that was impacted by "Grunge". Her and Pat Benatar could care less about appealing to young women in the 90's! They were already legends and did what they wanted artistically.
Tesla - you said it yourself. They imploded and were their own worst enemy.
Aerosmith - Completely changed their style of composing and marketing. They weren't remotely the same hard rock band they were before and compromised to stay relevant. It kept them alive.
Def Leppard - Yes, "Hysteria" was massive. But it was that way because women had joined the Leppard camp and slowly men who wanted a harder edge were leaving. They wrote for themselves and weren't following trends. Same with Bon Jovi.
Kiss - DID chase trends and often made very knee jerk attempts to be "relevant". "Revenge" was the album they were trying to compete with and while I love it, Kiss fans were done with the make-up era and the explosion that happened in 1996 confirmed that.
Robert Plant - untouchable. He constantly was changing styles and writing more and more for his own personal tastes. I don't think that he gave a crap about how many albums he was selling. An artist like him is about the creation and the creativity.
Styx - How long do you want them to be selling 3-4 million copies?? They had a run that any band would kill to have! Internal fighting, battles over direction and what to write and who should write it, tour battles, and already a decade together. These things have nothing to do with "Grunge". They were done in the 80's, long before Seattle ever appeared on the map. "Edge of the Century" still achieved "Gold" status which is nothing to be ashamed of. Expecting them to recapture "The Grand Illusion" is delusional!!
Journey - Their last big hurrah was "Raised on Radio" which sold two million copies. The band then broke up. Gone..until the reunion in 1996 which sold a million copies. In the meantime, classic rock radio was still playing all the classic Journey hits. So, they never left. Same with REO Speedwagon.
David Coverdale/Whitesnake - "Slip of the Tongue" was already a huge decline, long before Seattle was a factor. "Coverdale/Page" sold the same amount as "Slip of the Tongue". It hit #5 on the Billboard charts. For legacy artists like Page and Coverdale, that is awesome. And with all due respect, no one has a clue what the record companies were thinking. One can argue that the timing was off, and many bands were like that. Dio, Rainbow, Kiss, etc..all were victims of wrong album, wrong time...but not touring, except for limited dates in Japan hurt more. The reason the tour failed was because they were too far over their skies. The label and artists wanted a stadium tour for America and Europe and that was never going to happen. So, when sales weren't remotely close to those extreme goals, it got cancelled. And to blame both Page and Coverdale, neither were willing to play smaller theatres due to egos. THAT is what killed Coverdale/Page.
The only bands that I say were direct casualties of the Seattle movement were the bands that needed to and were going to die anyway. "Britney Fox", "Dangerous Toys", and..and...and..the dozens of other copycat bands signed by the labels for a cash grab, were never going to have any lasting power. Dio said it best, MTV and bands like "Poison" killed hard rock and heavy metal just as much as Seattle did.
The comments here are mine alone and aren't meant to be hurtful or disrespectful. They are my take alone and I have full respect for someone else's take.
Thanks for the comment Pete
The Division Bell debuted at number one on Billboard 200 in April 1994 and came second to Pearl Jam in first week sales with 480,000 its first week and the album stayed at number one for four straight weeks.
Nothing was destroyed by grunge.Grunge lasted a few years and by end of decade even a lot of hair metal came back and has been doing great on casino circuit,festivals and even cruises.Grunge never had that staying power.
I'm not sure if grunge had an effect on Pat Benatar's career. Seven the Hard Way and Wide Awake in Dreamland in the 80s weren't huge sellers. So, her being a hit-maker (love taker) was a bit on the downfall years before Nirvana. I was actually surprised how much "Everybody Lay Down" (from Gravity's Rainbow) got played on rock radio in 1993. And in 1991 "Paying the Cost to be the Boss" (from True Love) got a bit of airplay too. She even ended up on Johnny Carson with that blues album. But I think as being a mainstream hit-maker, her career would have went the same with or without grunge. And the blues album didn't kill her career either. I think most people knew it was a one-off experiment at the time.
It's a shame about 1997's Innamorata. The songs on that album could have blended in well with 90s rock radio...with the likes of Joan Osborne.
Thanks for the comment Jamie
I agree 1000%. Well said.
Same thing happened when Hair Metal became popular. Old guard metal bands tried to fit in either by look, power ballads, ect. It was silly to see Saxon try and fit themselves in. I liked the idea someone mentioned in the comments of bands that really sat out the 90s. I wish Metallica had lol
Great vid! Love that you mentioned Coverdale / Page and Winger's Pull, those were interesting listens...
Robert Plant had a couple of really good albums in the late 80s into early 90s. Branching out into more psychedelic sounds was really good.
Pink Floyd, The Eagles and The Rolling Stones all survived the grunge onslaught
A few points occur to me after watching this video and reading the comments.
A lot of people saying grunge itself died....Alice in Chains/Jerry Cantrell and Pearl Jam are still putting out albums and they're actually doing better than a lot of the 'hair' bands that still exist. It was certain personalities in grunge bands that (literally) died.
If grunge and 'hair/80s rock' were so antagonistic to each other and are so separate, in your minds how would you rationalise Scott Weiland (Stone Temple Pilots) forming a supergroup with ex members of Guns n Roses - Velvet Revolver?
Grunge/alternative was heavily influenced by 1970s rock. I enjoy a lot of 1980s rock but I would also argue that a lot of the bands were becoming pop-rock.
There was a major Beatles revival in the mid 90s certainly here in the UK with the Anthology, and also Page and Plant re-formed, not a Zeppelin full reunion, but the first time they had worked together for a sustained period since the 70s and there was a lot of media and critical interest in that.
Def Leppard were also affected by the death of guitarist Steve Clark in 91, they did Adrenalise as a 4 piece, Viv Campbell did the next album and tour, and maybe Grunge didn't help but a lot of fans missed Steve
Yep. That is a valid point.
I think it depends on your generation, guys a bit older than me think hair metal is classic rock and think grunge killed everything, but I actually think grunge brought a sort of classic rock aesthetic back, it was organically produced, had a sabbath/zep influence and had a lot of strong vocalists like Cornell, staley and lanegan. Black Sabbath’s seminal status was sort of re-affirmed by it. On the other hand I view emo, pop punk and metal core and even stuff like the white stripes as a bit lame cause I was too old and set in my ways when it came out. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s bad, it just means I have biases cause I grew up with grunge, metal, stoner rock, alternative, nu metal(some) and 60s/70s classic rock and I think of that as “real music”
A band called School of Fish had a massive hit in early 1991 called 3 Strange Days. Their next record in 1993 got nudged out by Grunge. Their record company even tried tried to mold their music into more of a "Grunge" sound. They broke up after that 2nd album. Jellyfish was imo another band that may have been sidelined by Grunge. Their particular brand of pop didn't seem to fit well within the confines of the era. Two wonderful albums between 1990-93, then members went off and did solo projects
@44 min Robert Plant sang Shake My Tree on the Page Plant tour not on a solo tour. They also played Calling To You from Fate of Nations on the tour. No hypocrisy from Percy there.
Thanks for the correction. There is still hypocrisy as Plant is singing a song co-written by his nemesis/the target of his many barbs..(that was the point I was making)
Respectfully I disagree@@RockDaydreamNation that is why I mentioned Calling to You. There was obviously an agreement to do 1 solo song from each of them (they also often did The Cure's Lullaby while Porl Thompson was in the band). Shake My Tree was only played at the 1st 49 shows (of 118) & was dropped after the 2nd leg of the US tour in June 95. Calling to You was used as the basis of the medley song & was replaced by While Lotta Love in Oct 95 after 79 shows.
I've never really bought into the whole such and such acts were put out to pasture by grunge view.
1990 I thought was a really strong year for music, but for most of '91, I was, with a couple of exceptions, undetwhelmed by what had come out and I was waiting for something to come along and give music a big shake-up.
Suddenly, near '91's end, a whole spate of cracking good albums were released and it was like "where the hell have you been all this time?"
Wasn't just Nevermind either. Badmotorfinger, Trompe Le Monde, Blood Sugar Sex Magik,Diamonds And Pearls and Achtung Baby are others that spring to mind (the 2 Use Your Illusions came out round that time too, but for me at least, the best tracks from both would've made for a great single album. As for Dangerous-the best thing about it was Nevermind knocked it off the No.1 spot in the U.S. album charts).
How things were after that is a whole other story.
Cheers and Happy New Year!
I lived the era , was 18 when grunge broke , loved Nirvana , Pearl Jam , so on on .., but you know what .., since maybe 2000 I have not listened to a single grunge album , never revisited , yet my first loves , Zeppelin , Priest , Maiden , AC/DC and so on .., I still spin , adore , love like I did then .., grunge was a time and place thing and lasted what 5 years at most ?!?
Adrenalize was awful. They would have been bulletproof too if they hadn't have gone off the deep end with the "glam" sound. They got popular playing hard rock/heavy metal and we felt like they sold out so we dropped them like a rock!
I think Rap/Hiphop had a lot to do with the demise of Grunge. More white listeners began listening to rap by the early 90's. At the same time, Grunge artists weren't coming up with anything interesting, many albums sound a lot like the previous one. Not a lot of female artists in Grunge. Then came boy bands, American Idol, ipods, internet, major classic rock bands going on tour competing with the newer bands, and a lot of people just started to look elsewhere for music and Grunge started to fall by the wayside. Also, Grunge itself has to share some of the blame, since so many members of bands died young which made carrying the movement forward a more difficult task.
your last point is the critical one, which I mentioned in my post, I agree with that.
Maybe it depends on where you lived, but where I was large amounts of white kids didn’t start listening to hip hop until Eminem came out, with nu metal acting as a bit of a bridge. I think it depends on your generation, guys a bit older than me think hair metal is classic rock and think grunge killed everything, but I actually think grunge brought a sort of classic rock aesthetic back, it was organically produced, had a sabbath/zep influence and had a lot of strong vocalists like Cornell, staley and lanegan. On the other hand I view emo, pop punk and metal core and even stuff like the white stripes as a bit lame cause I was too old and set in my ways when it came out.
Talking about Page/Coverdale I'm older than any of you but I remember when there were no labels which was great because everything was getting played on radio.Didn't matter if it was ELP or Heep or Tull,Zeppelin,Neil Young,Cat Stevens if it was good it was played.Wasn't controlled by labels or media.Now you have to put labels on everything.Why jump on grunge with other music was still good promote everything
How about Anthrax - Persistence of time came out in 1990, Belladonna did leave, but the time spent finding John Bush imo made them see what was happening around them, grunge etc…., and they made a conscious effort to drop the shorts, cut or change the hair, get serious, all due to the musical landscape. They then jumped around lower labels and imo struggled to find their space in the metal landscape. They only started resurrecting themselves when they internally discussed bringing Belladona and timed it well with a lot of bands resurrecting their careers to audiences who realised they were missed and were in support of attending shows. Anthrax then turned legacy - noone cares or remembers the name of the newer guitarist, and we haven’t had a record for nearly a decade. But def, anthrax - a superstar band that struggled with the changesof the 90’s.
MTV shut the door on glam metal in the early 90s when they radically altered their programming. Grunge and alternative came to the fore. But what did grunge inspire…nothing!
I’d say Fleetwood Mac.
They were still able to produce some hits after Lindsey Buckingham’s late 80’s departure, but by the mid 90’s they were dead in the water.
Until the live album and tour the dance brought them back to popularity in late 90’s.
LMFAO NO IT DIDNT THEY STILL TOURED AND MADE MONEY LMFAO...
I was 18 in 1992 and I hate 90's music almost entirely. In 92 I was really digging Rush, Yes and The Beatles as my top three bands and starting to get familiar with 80's King Crimson, where Beat seemed like alien signals from a forgotten home world, along with albums like Fragile, Close to the Edge, and Tales From Topographic Oceans also feeling like an otherworldly home. When Teen Spirit happened it smelled bad to me, looked abominably stupid and ugly like orcs trashing an elven music tradition they don't even understand. Teen Spirit smells like stale beer and cigarette butts left on my bass amp and a hard to impossible time finding any other musicians who can even fathom anything outside 4/4 time let alone anything like Yes. Look at Rush; I like their 70's through 80's material best. Presto was the cream of the crop and then Grunge made all the prog rockers dumb down, which I've never liked. Venus in Aquarius 5th house with Jupiter I guess. With channels like Drumeo and so many great vocal coaches and guitar teachers there's scads of musicians training up for battle when Neptune and Saturn enter Aries together for a test run this Summer, then in 26 we get out of the sleepy computer pit of the kids who are mere playthings for producers and robots. I'm training up drum rudiments with two sticks, a practice pad, and the George Lawrence Stone paper copy of Stick Control where I don't have to deal with videos having irritating features in the sound like echo, the leader loses the click, etc, I can just sit with the book that goes at my own pace and train my hands to be able to handle sticks like Bruford and Roach.
Too much to type here about this subject. Would had to have been on the episode to really dig into the subject matter.
Guilt by association.
classic rock didnt get wiped out by grunge. it wiped out the pretentious 80s and if you were a 70s rock band that listened to a producer telling you to follow that cookie cutter crap you got hit. the ones that didnt follow that industry standard remained legit, matter of a fact the grunge movement celebrated you because you were real. not fake.
I think far to much is made of grunge destroying bands. I'm sure it happened in part. But hey it constantly happens. And with def Leppard their sound changed with adrenalize. The hard rock was gone. But it was catchy as hell. It spent 5 weeks in 92 at number 1. It sold 8 million world wide. They had been around 12 years already. Probably due for a comedown. And they had just lost a founding member. That had a huge effect on their sound. And as for Pat Benatar,she was toast by late 80s
So called grunge was just another style, mostly geographical, of Rock n Roll. No legends were destroyed. Click bait is a real thing. The Pat Benatar story was lame, Pat was already toast by the so called advent of grunge, in terms of being a popular force within the music industry.
@@0sumgamezzz435 So no classic rock bands were dropped by their record label post 1992? No classic rock ticket sales slowed nor radio wasn’t playing their new music? Benatar is an example of an artist pre 1992 had a gold record and was a reasonable draw card, post this, not. Thanks for watching.
@@RockDaydreamNation No legends were destroyed. I’ll say that for sure. Legends??? I believe you have fallen into the calling everybody a legend trap, like so many on the internet do. Take solace in the fact, that you are by no means alone. Take Pat Benatar for example. A solid late 70s early 80s act, for sure, but she’s not a legend, and as I stated, by the early 90s she was mostly toast. At that point, she could not sell out arenas, those days for her were long over. Just because a band is in the Hall of Fame does not make them legendary.
I never said some classic rock act sales may have slowed. I know that was the case, however, actual legends that were still touring at that point were still selling out shows and thoroughly unbothered by so called grunge acts.
I would love to start seeing videos about how grunge was destroyed by nu metal and pop punk in the mid 90's. Everyone always putting grunge on the mantle and shitting on metal or hard rock being killed by it, but never about how it was destroyed and killed.
Grunge is classic rock…’big hair’ idiot glam-metal was destroyed by grunge.
lol