Riot Vanguard Disaster - Is a Kernel-Level Anti-Cheat safe? - The Four Horsemen S3E6 (ft Yasukeh)
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- Опубліковано 17 чер 2024
- Richard Lewis, Thorin, and MonteCristo are joined by retired former Challenger player Yasukeh to discuss Riot Vanguard: Riot Games's anti-cheat used for VALORANT, League of Legends, and Teamfight Tactics. Further topics include the intrusiveness levels of kernel-level anti-cheat systems, Riot's claims on why Vanguard is needed, Reddit Moderators deleting comments and threads discussing Vanguard, and more.
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Thank you to INTOTHEAM for sponsoring this week's episode! You must use our link to receive 10% discount on anything you purchase on the website: www.intotheam.com/lfn
Yasukeh's new video on Vanguard: • Riot's Vanguard League...
Riot Games /dev post on Vanguard in LoL: www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us...
Reddit Thread on Vanguard's LoL rollout: old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflege...
Deleted comments from the above Reddit thread: undelete.pullpush.io/r/league...
The Four Horsemen is the premier esports industry show that reacts to important news and critical conversations across all major titles. Esports veterans Duncan "Thorin" Shields, Richard Lewis, and Christopher "MonteCristo" Mykles use their decades of experience to shed light and debate on key esports topics as they emerge. Each episode they are joined by an expert guest to help further provide insider information on the topic at hand.
This episode was filmed on May 14th, 2024.
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0:00:00 - Intro
0:07:49 - What are kernel-level anti-cheats?
0:37:06 - Riot's claims on why Vanguard is necessary
0:45:03 - The LoL rollout and Reddit shenanigans
1:28:23 - No false positives claim + screenshot ability
1:36:08 - What is the end goal of Vanguard?
1:41:07 - VALORANT and Vanguard + problems in LoL
2:00:24 - Closing thoughts
#podcast
#esports
#riotgames - Ігри
Who knew Vanguard would be such an effective marketing campaign for Dota 2
the thing is a lot of players decided to leave dota at some time and started playing league and fell in love it, but now they can't play league and don't wanna play dota either
CS 3rd party has the same type of anti cheat.
I didn’t think anything would actually be able to make me stop playing league, but riot did it. Never will as long as vanguard exists
See ya in a week
Same. Been playing Dota, it is not bad
@@liamwxyz3114 not everyone is addicted to league mate
@treynguyen1236 and even those that are addicted: there is "i will blow half my wage on cocaine" addiction and "can i sniff a line in exchange for deepthroating your knob" addiction.
Same here lol, I finally stop playing league
Riot is now (and has been for a good amount of time) doing anything BUT improving the game. Fuck that company, they basically got lucky with the game and ran it to the ground.
This case of lost potential should be investigated.
Valve sweating in the background:
Yes I was just thinking about that too. As I played League for 11 years, started playing in 2013. I've had many years to notice how Riot is handling the game. And for at least 8 out of those 11 years I felt like Riot just let the game stay stagnant, barely any effort beyond bare minimum. The biggest effort I ever saw from them was when they redid the whole summoners rift map. That's about it. I always wanted them to make League 2.0 and redo the game from scratch, but they made a shitty mobile version instead... And them deleting old "unpopular" maps instead of revamping them. RIP Twisted Treeline, RIP Dominion. ( Dominion I missed personally) Just shows they never cared about the gaming experience, they became very lazy and complacent after the first few years of the games existence. But that should have been the time where they invested the most time in keeping the game fresh, you know? Like obviously the first few years they are just working to get the game popular and have a stable base, but then it did become insanely popular, but then they didn't do anything with that success??? They just chose to stay in phase 1 forever, never going on to phase 2 and beyond where they revamp the game to the next level. It's absolutely a case of wasted potential.
@@zebnemma Spot-on.
It's so hard to explain to non-technical people how Kernel is at the "lowest levels" and that means it has the "highest level of access".
Yeah pyramid
Most access at the bottom but largest area (access)
Just say that the closer you are to the kernel or core, the more access you have. Surface level stuff like Solitaire doesn't need much info about your PC to operate.
Analogies to non-technical people don't need to be 100% accurate. Just optimize trying to get your point across succinctly and in a way that it is easy to understand.
And so hard for you to understand that windows doesn't allow kernel third parties to conflict with the OS
Iioi9iiii@@vez3834
Use depth. It sinks its roots into the deepest parts and sees and touches things they can't even see with admin privileges.
I have played League of Legends since I was a kid in middle school, around the beginning of season 2. I am now married with 3 children. I've played this game a ton over the last 13 years and spent some money on skins etc, but I will now be uninstalling LOL forever. Congratulations Riot, you have managed to make even your most committed players walk away. I've known for years the company was trash but still enjoyed the game in spite of it, but this is the end of the line. I'll just enjoy the eSports side through LFN content and call it good
Yes I played since 2013 to 2024, so 11 years. Also uninstalled when the Vanguard patch came. I played up until the very end. Just a day or two before that I played a few games. There will never be a reason to return to League now. Because I know that when the majority of veterans quit the game is gonna be even more fucking toxic brain rot then it has ever been. Have fun keeping the Yasuo, Yone and Samira mains Riot. The rest of us are leaving!!! Me and my other veteran friend quit on the spot. And I know there are many more. Probably tens of thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of players I can foresee quitting over this, ESPECIALLY the veterans! On every single UA-cam video about this topic there are many comments saying "I quit League". Even if Riot is censoring people on Reddit the proof that people are leaving is on UA-cam.
@@zebnemma 100%, my dad always said, "Vote with your wallet." Guess what? If tens to hundreds of thousands of people refuse to play while vanguard exists, that's a lot of zeros riot will lose. Maybe they'll eventually reconsider their decision but I certainly won't hold my breath
@@beatsbydr.draven1932 I think Riots reputation is tarnished in general after this, even for people who decided to keep playing with Vanguard installed. I can foresee even a good chunk of those players leaving too eventually. Especially since it's talking about how Vanguard gives people PC crashes or lags... I feel like even the biggest League addicts are gonna say fuck it if they have lag every single match they play LMAO.
Monte doing the factor ad meanwhile Richard and Thorin trying not to burst laughing lol
That was the best part.
I have no clue why but every single time they do this, it’s always funny.
Delicious protein shake with semen50
The issue a lot of people, myself included, were having is that many newer desktops and laptops sold with Win11 pre-installed did not have TPM 2.0 enabled. This isn't actually supposed to be possible as Win 11 requires TPM to be installed, as those upgrading from Win10 will tell you. So you could easily install Vangaurd, as you already have Windows 11, and then have your entire computer labeled as a cheater for not having TPM 2.0 installed. Truly incredible that Riot missed this.
Legit stopped me from playing league because I'm not having that shit on my computer. Played it since season 2, now switched to other games and hobbies.
Played since season 1, there’s quite literally every other type of entertainment available that riot is competing against.
yeah, i stopped playing a few months before the announcement and sometimes thought about reinstalling it for the occasional aram, but vanguard was the nail in the coffin.
Same here, I just quit lol
Same, and started at same time too
Riot saying, "Vanguard has not bricked any computers" while blaming LS for not having his BIOs settings perfectly setup is a peak Riot moment. Of course programs have the ability to check these settings but Riot just can't help but victim blame and refuse to admit their constant mistakes. What a joke of a company, honestly I'm glad cause if they were even half decent people I would still be addicted to that shithole.
also like to believe ls has more tech knowledge than the average gamer too. 100% agree with richard most people dont actually know how to fix this issue. def not worth the risk to play a few arams a week.
I mean the game is good.
@@justin9744 it used to be so much better you have no idea, the trajectory has been downhill for YEARS.
@@justin9744 yeah, but the software product is beyond garbage
@@djbcubed Yeup, it's gotten progressively worse since around S5
My problem with vanguard is getting kernel privilege is no longer a matter of OS security, you just need a vanguard vulnerability and boom, Mirai but 100x larger. Track record doesn't favor Riot either: it's been breached multiple times through different vectors and solving the DDoS problem at KR servers took them a whole lot of time, even disrupting LCK live matches. Their client is spaghetti, their netsec is laughable, am I supposed to trust installing Vanguard doesnt make my computer more vulnerable?
Look at razer. When have they ever fixed their Driver Vulns 😂😂😂
@@flodoe8164 yea that's some shit
well said
Riot has determined you to be a cheater or a bot lol
@@alexr6458 eh??
the people willing to give up their computer security for *maybe* fewer cheaters are the same people who said the patriot act wasnt that bad as long as you werent doing anything wrong
I don't have anything to hide! Why should I care that the US government is listening to my private conversations with my family about their current issues and struggles? Why should I care that I'm being recorded at my most vulnerable moments?
If you can afford a separate computer that all you do on is play League (and maybe other Kernel level multiplayer games) then I don't think it's a problem even if there is a breach.
So some people that are willing can just do that and they'll be fine.
I've played league since season 1/2, probably 30000+ hours at this point I have no clue. I can't recall a single instance of cheating... I'm sure I've encountered a couple scripters over that time but none I remember. Absurd anyone could try to justify this invasive piece of malware to solve a non-issue
Developing a kernel runtime that requires a very specific TPM/BIOS config combo is just negligent at best. People barely know how to turn on their computers, don't expect the end user to be able to do anything beyond that.
Well there are some important things to note
1 - Former WoW dev and offensive cybersecurity specialist for 20+ years (Thor aka PirateSoftware) debunked the whole "Kernel Level Anti-cheat" situation which for a lack of a better word is stil useles. Main point is that in videogames it is far far more efficient to make detection methods based on in game actions rather than having a glorified "file detect bot" running on your PC. For the same reason as to why Riot is bad at detecting greefers/trolls etc its the same with the Anti-cheat situation now aka Riot devs arent compitent enough to make such a simple tool that people 15+ years ago made every 3 months
2 - Just like regular anti-cheats once there is a way to bypass something there is no turning back , just because they theoreticly made it "harder" doesnt mean shit cause just like before the same cycle repeats itself , cheaters find ways to cheat > Riots patches anticheat > cheaters find new ways > repeat . The fact that cheating will initially drop to near 0 also doesnt mean anything cause cheaters are always on the market so as i said its a matter of time until cheats come out and those who cheat will get the new ones. IP and Hardware bans were possible before Vanguard so again its not like they need it to be Kernel Level to get that info and even before for some ungodly stupid reason they almost never did Hardware bans aside from botting situations in South East Asia. Also because Riot is incompitent as fuck when they released their article on cheating on their website they showed graphs that perfectly show the time of Banwaves throughout the years which gives the cheaters a massive advantage cause 1 they can plan accordingly and 2 due to the time intervals between banwaves its very predictable when they would happen if they were to be changed since there isnt really room for much diffrence in intervals so even if they changed when they do banwaves cheaters would very easily find out when.
3 - Although there hasnt been any information on this i personally believe Vanguard was created initially and was purposed for League of Legends since its the biggest market there is , assuming Valorant was in development for 2-3 years its very possible they used Vanguard as a marketing strategy for Valorant initially (Even in Valorant they have a cheating problem) but the main purpose was to use Valorant as a "beta test" to test the waters for Vanguard and how players would react and also to see its effect on a game that unlike league is way harder to detect cheaters by in-game methods , my assumption is that since they saw little to no pushback to Vanguard in Valorant they went forward with adding it into League that has a larger players base (or subject base on this matter) although again this is only my speculation am just giving out the info that this gels together too well with how they did things. (Also it is known that they didnt go all out on Valorant so its not hard to believe that they used it as a Gunea pig for the bigger project of Vanguard because at the end of the day Vanguard isnt a big deal to Riot but it is for Tencent)
Just chiming in with a comment that won't be removed by moderators. :)
I didn't install vanguard, but a lot of my friends did. All of them but one experienced at least one-two notable problems with their installs, and one of them DID have his windows installation bricked. Something substantial was damaged about the boot partition, or the drive itself, to the point where even when he brought it into a computer shop, they weren't able to recover the data. I'm sure it didn't actually 'wipe out his drive' in entirety, but it did enough damage that clearly the basic techniques you might find someone using at a local shop to do data recovery no longer worked.
And as they mention in the video, he did lose access to important files he used for his work from home job, which has probably caused him quite the struggle over the last few weeks (the nature of his job is that everyone manages a bunch of files that aren't in a repository like in software).
So yeah, Vanguard's shoddy implementation has definitely caused outright damages that I believe they should be liable for.
Riot's Vanguard system will be used to hack people in the future, that level of access just needs one mistake in their code to allow someone full access to the PC and no IT company in the world has not had someone break their program at some point.
The easiest example Genshin impact's anticheat has been used for ransomware and has had multiple exploits (latest CVE 2024 22830).
I just hope that when Vanguard gets hacked that it's actually reported by gaming news, but Riot is just as likely to do a quiet patch and sweep it under the rug.
Yeah they’ll send out a one paragraph email like every other data leak ie those credit companies that got millions of peoples data stolen (which is granted to them without your approval or consent)
Thanks for referencing the Genshin CVE, definitely a big concern in this situation.
RIOT has tried to defend Vanguard by claiming "well, it's been in Valorant since launch and nothing's happened! See, it's all good guys!" .. except that no one plays Valorant, it has like 1% of League of Legends' playerbase (RIOT even admitted this). Of course Valorant wasn't target'd. But Leagues? That's the mother of all whales.
Thank you guys, I think this is a losing battle but I admire the transparency as always.
Bricked my PC completely. Had to CMOS reset etc etc
52:00 my personal experience with having the wrong settings (at least in valo) is it'll just kick you off the game and tell you to check your bios settings. I feel like there's probably something more fishy underneath the hood of why it's bricking PCs.
Yeah it’s called spaghetti code
There is a popular streamer called BatemanL9 he is the Joker of League Streamers (guy who runs it down 24/7). He just switched to MacOS for his setup, because there is no Vanguard for Mac.
I am having a horrible experience with Vanguard. Over this weekend i kept getting an error message saying "that vanguard has stopped working" and as a result i get booted from ranked games. This resulted in me being penalised for "bad behaivour" ie "quitting" matches. Right now i am in potential of having my account frozen. I have sent bug reports and nothing is being done. What do I do!!!!!!!
Get a shitty laptop to play league exclusively on there. Or quit.
Just stop playing. Vanguard has been an unreliable mess since the beginning and Valorant has the same issues you're experiencing. It's not going away.
uninstall, which is what you should have done before this shit dropped
Play Dota or CS doofus
@@potowogreedo They probably also have the same type of anti cheats.
I quit league when they first announced they were going to implement Vanguard back in January, I've been meaning to try out Dota but still haven't x)
I began playing cs 2, it's quite fun even though very difficult to learn.
Try hots
@@treynguyen1236 id actually rather drink a glass of piss than play a blizzard game
gl with dota its real tough in the begining but worth it.
same haha, dota has been tough to learn but i find it pretty fun
Great talk, good guest.
@1:35:20 yes you can close vanguard as Monte mentions, but there is a very high chance at least for me on Windows 10 that Windows will update itself every single time you close Vanguard
Just had my BIO's restarting yesterday... I didn't know why, now I do x)
I quit league almost three years ago , along with booze as two most addicting and life wrecking substances for me.
It still sits on my drive tho, biding its time, waiting for a slip up.
Thanks for the last push to finally get rid of it fully, and thanks for the code for raycons a while back, they are nice 😊
Make sure to reformat drive or use revo uninstaller. Riot client does not get deleted when you uninstall league
I don't use reddit (nor do I play League of Legends anymore), but I really enjoyed this video. It's a relief to see people say things that I've been realizing/mentioning to friends for years now. I felt crazy for a while (the bot astroturfing downplaying every single suspicion I had was effective for a few months). Eventually I realized that the comment section is full of bots arguing with bots across the board on that website, so I left.
I visit other forums occasionally. They have their own issues, but it's refreshing seeing actual people with their own (non bot influenced) opinions express them without tiptoeing around everything to avoid the wrath of the "um actually" brigade.
I swear, sometimes they just comment paragraph after paragraph of meaningless salad in order to confuse people, lol.
watching on my phone through a vpn on neighbours wifi. Stay safe
to monte's point around 53 min i had no idea about this vanguard kernal level stuff
Rocket League has competitive ready accounts available for free from Epic Games directly (if you play in a party). I wish so badly they would make it harder to play comp on a new account, but Epic Games just wants to show their metrics of unique accounts. It's crazy, every high-ranked player I've met has 5+ "alt" accounts, and most players in general over like bottom 25% I've met have 2-3. And now finally, hacks are becoming common in the game on top of the smurfs for the same reason. Bans mean absolutely nothing when accounts are free in terms of money and effort.
Dropping this video on the day of the midseason patch...
At 14:18 Yasukeh talks about "Problem reaction Solution", Riot is notorious for doing this. They did it with Eve when they gutted her kit because the way stealth working in early league. They were even banning people for playing her rather than just removing the character. They did it with Old Aatrox (even though at the end of his lifespan he was an incredibly healthy character). Riot has had tons of practice doing this and they need to be called out on their bullshit.
Man i love this show.
Amazing episode. I especially liked how Yasukeh mentioned that the player base have gotten lesser after the vanguard implementation.
I myself stopped playing at the same time so it's nice to see that many players don't accept this.
Didn't think I would uninstall league of legends since its kind of the only game I enjoy with my friends.
What Richard said starting from 30:00 changed that.
wasn't there official riot stats that the vast majority of cheaters were hardstuck gold to plat? turns out that micro-managing a champion is literally only 1/10th of what makes you good at the game, it's like Yasukeh said you can have the perfect kogmaw kiting you want if I'm like master yi or zed I'm running you down anyway
Yeah or for the Korean challenger karthus one, I’m sure an actual Korean challenger can just pick fizz and qwe ignite one shot. Stack mejais free win
Absolutely.
Even worse there are "Anti-Cheat" champions, Maokai, Malphite, Nasus Zilean etc
Micro spacing means squat when you are slowed by 90% or point click stunned.
Fantastic video fellas
I don’t think I did anything extra to download vanguard. I didn’t except anything or even press a download for the patch I believe the client did it on its own. 53:02
Thorin was pretty chill today, he is such a good podcast host when he controlls his energy and doesn't channel it into talking all the time.
vanguard reduces the performance of my 2022 gaming laptop to the state of my 2010 budget gaming pc thanks riot.
Dang, after 10 plus years of playing DoTA 2 I was considering playing Valorant & LoL but when the installer wanted to install this anti cheat, I started doing research & found this podcast. Thanks for the info yall, don’t think I’ll be installing this.
I understand people's concerns. I have 2 pc's and had no problem with vanguard yet and one of them is an old laptop bought in 2016 where is running windows 10. I saw a tweet from a known cheater saing that he is using a macbook now because there are no plans that riot will make mac users install vanguard and i find that absurd.
another great podcast with Voldemort
Thanks for the reporting. This shit looked weird but I use it for the homies a few times a month. Not worth the risk. We’ll find something else
This one will be a banger, though I would have preferred if someone with more development/anti-cheat experience was the 4th horseman.
Find that person who has the credentials you ask for who has even the most vague idea of how their experience intersects with this League rollout, the history of cheating in League, or put any level of research that would allow them to understand any of Riot's claims on a horizontal level outside of anything in their specific vertical understanding.
Or one could simply talk with those people and gain what little of their understanding is relevant, and then apply that to the broader picture.
This mythical person with credentials who understands the broader topic as it relates to League doesn't exist.
I disagree, I feel like yasukeh did a great job explaining the tech details behind Vanguard and Kernel-level anti-cheat. You don’t really need more details, because the main issue is with how absurd the amount of info Riot are collecting and how they have fucked up and censored the whole roll out
@@Yasukeh Most likely he doesn't, though I've heard the pro and semi-pro POV multiple times
OMG didn't see you guys, since time immemorial, when Lewis was TheOneWhomShantbeNamed
Fok Vanguard! Fok Rito! Can't play TFT anymore because of some wanking bloat/spyware.
Do I want to give access to my computer to company who cant properly manage their own game or esports? No!
Futhermore, If i play their game, I have consent to terms of service. But when they're bloatware get's access to my computer, there is no terms of service for them? So if they fok up and I suffer damages, it will be my fault not theirs. I say it again, fok RIOT!
Remember they justified Vanguard on the Masters+ Ranked queue (about 5% of the players?) having "too many cheaters". Yes you, TFT player, you have to give us kernel privilege because a minority of those who play a different mode, have a cheater problem.
@@m4ng4n Yes, I cannot stop cheating in TFT - with 1 hand clicking cartoon champs and 2nd one having a wank!
idk why they don't seperate TFT, like I only want to enjoy TFT not LoL
play it on your phone or get an android emulator. TFT does exist there and can be used with your existing stuff.
Would it make sense to just uninstall after every session
Fantastic episode guys. Yasukeh was a great guest too. Actually didn't know how much data it is actually tracking, which was interesting to find out.
The TPM 2.0 thing is only related to Windows 11 because it's required to run the OS. It's completely redundant and useless info that Riot has given us and it has only partially been addresed here.
Good guy Riot: knows i relapse into league once a year before remembering after a month how shit a time I have
*introduces a kernel level anti cheat i wouldnt touch with a 6ft bargepole*
well that's freed up a month of every year! thanks Riot
I have been playing league for 8 years and Vanguard made me quit. Impressive.
Flusha cheated in 2014
I feel like even if the number of players drastically decreases from people refusing to install Vanguard, Riot (in their usual Riot way) would respond to it by saying "look at all the cheaters we've removed from the game! There were even more than we initially thought! Vanguard's addition to League has been a rousing success." 🙄
Did Richard release that riot lyte article?
53:00 THATs why unistall this game right now.
How the fuck are they alowd to without any warning install this shit on my PC ???
What Richard talked about in the beginning how his email got hacked after sending a report ticket to riot... Something similar happened to me some years ago too. You know how it has the "login and watch a LCS match on our website and get a free chest/loot/whatever)" So one time I did. You have to login to Leagues official website to get that reward. And after that I got a suspicious notification that someone had logged in to my email acc. And it also used to be that you only could send report tickets on their official website instead of directly in the client(many years ago). But anyway don't ever log into their website, it's not secure for shit! But also it just shows that you can't trust Riot with any sensitive information.
I mean thing is i had every single skin in the game up until patch 14.9. Even sunk-cost fallacy cannot justfiy me installing vanguard.
2:14 Riot vanguard anti-cheat
2:28
Yasukeh going hard 👍
Thank fkn God for Yasukeh! Finally i know what a brick is!
Why don’t they just get someone who actually specializes in it to talk about this stuff
I think to some extent what was missed when discussing kernel anticheat is that if you can't know that the kernel isn't modified, you can't trust that anything you ask the computer to do for you in userspace isn't lying to you. That's the problem with user-level anticheat. You can't actually trust anything that you're told about the state of the system.
that's also why it has to be loaded at boot.
I uninstalled league rather than running vanguard, but there are real technical reasons for how it runs.
"The Grognak down here goes..."
You can tell Fallout is taking over Richard's life these days lol.
Does uninstalling riot client get rid of vanguard too or do I need to take specific measures?
same question
I mean I think the simple truth is most people probably won’t care. Tons of people’s favorite games unfortunately have kernel level anti cheat.
That aren’t always on. That aren’t bricking peoples pcs. That don’t have almost direct ccp control
@@wwjccsd You can just turn off Vanguard in tray, its really not a big deal w/e "always on". They make it easy to turn off if you're concerned.
@@tlanimass952 vanguard boots the same time your BIOS does. It turns drivers off that it doesnt like.
@@calarakien He was talking about "always on". Vanguard is very easy to turn off.
54:36 great point by richard: how the hell do you not AB test this?? basically everything done by big companies is AB tested, to avoid exactly these types of issues. delegating a small team to help a few dozen people out of 10k is waaaaaay more feasible than trying to solve problems for tens of thousands of people.
AB testing = rolling out a (possible breaking) feature to smaller (in preference, distributed) populations and gradually increasing the number of people using it
hi, im a casual league player (maybe 3-5 ranked games per month) and didnt really pay attention to the whole vanguard situation but somehow the yt algorithm suggested a clip from this show and after watching you talk about this i uninstalled both the league client and vanguard
18 blue screen's before a mysterious critical update for vanguard. All different error codes.
It's about control. You will own nothing and you will be happy.
And yeah, I used to play LoL non stop from like 2012 to 2020. Since then, I've gotten on a hand full of times to play a few games. I will not be getting on anymore period.
I recently had a bricked PC, how could I possibly know that Vanguard caused it? Why would I think to report it to RIOT GAMES, IF MY PC WAS WRECKED!
no lies detected.
Calling it now: Riot is using Vanguard to pivot into the data industry, like Google.
gamersdoc is basically finalboy but for anticheat instead of gaming mice
55:15 they did roll it out in the Philippines server first though
I brought that point up a minute after that was brought up.
@@Yasukeh but im impatient and have to correct on the second i hear misinformation like a true gremlin
I quit playing league when Vanguard dropped. I wasn't enjoying it already, even winning in that game is not fun. And Vanguard was just another reason for me to quit. I will still follow esport of it, i really enjoy that, but playing that game? No more. I will much rather do something that is actually fun and does not make me want to scream and punch my monitor even after winning.
Monte at 1:31:55 says Riot brought up screenshots when no one asked.
Except people did ask. That post went out the day after that Tweet was going around claiming they looked at the code and that it took screenshots of your pc and things like Discord etc. So yes. people did in fact ask. So I ask you, why didn't you do any research?
Unfortunately now that Vanguard has been implemented, it will never be removed. If only because Riot doesn't want to lose face.
Personally I don't really care about privacy/CCP argument, however having permanently-running app that just slows down your computer just to play TFT or few ARAM games a month makes very little sense to me, and Riot isn't known for their technical excellency either, their client has been a memory-leaking mess since its inception so I'm not at all surprised about blue screens and driver issues that the Vanguard has been causing.
Also, logically, if every online game made such anticheat, would that mean you need to run like 10 of them at the same time, with them clashing with each other, this is subscription service dilemma all over again, there's no way that's good for anyone moving forward.
why would you not care about the privacy... lmao
@@user-pn1hh5et9kcause most people don't.....
@@user-pn1hh5et9k too late for that. If someone really wanted your data, they'd get it even without vanguard.
@@user-pn1hh5et9k not privacy as a whole but argument that it's vanguard that makes my otherwise secure data insecure. It's too far gone already and anyone important really wanting your data would already be able to get it, you'd need to go to extreme lengths to avoid it, and I'm not sure that CCP is worst offender on that front either.
@@user-pn1hh5et9kthere are three definitions of private data in Cyber security that have changed over the years. Nowadays most people leak so much personal information online and through social media that the general definition is data that you consented to share rather than all sensitive data, therefore it just isn't a worry to people now.
If you have no skeletons in the closet, you wouldn't have to worry about what data you give. The Vanguard problem with me was about Riot's lack of transparency around the issues involving users.
But this isn't to say that the data you leak wouldn't be used maliciously, who knows what these governments would do with this data in the future.
Btw there is a video from a user called: “minigod” who is credible, highly skilled aim trainer player and he has a video where he gets banned from VALORANT due to his incredible aim being mistaken for cheating. AND, he’s not the only credible aim trainer who has been banned this way before. So the notion there are never false positives is easily provably false
Soo happy I stopped playing league years ago, I only play the mobile game wild rift
IDC about the privacy concerns, all companies are selling my data anyways, but I for sure do not trust a company that after 15 years of trying cannot get a decent game client to not F something up on my pc with software like this. Uninstalled.
Interesting topic. But i dunno if i care so much about the drama around it. I would much rather have someone on who worked on anti-cheat software talk about why or why not this level of anti-cheat is needed. I have once in my whole life experienced cheating as a diamond player, so for me it just seemed like overkill to make it so intrusive. To be fair, i never want to experience the amount of cheaters CS2 have had recently.
I was a long time player of League. Played since beta. I uninstalled Riot stuff on ALL my devices because of Vanguard.
ESL Wire was a kernel anti cheat and everybody knows that nobody ever cheated in ESL random leagues... ;P
33:40 TOP TIER THORIN QUOTE
piss off verlis
Nice
44:00 i'm one of those people who stopped playing/ uninstalled LoL earlier this year ahead of Vanguard, even after playing for 10+ years, and enjoying the game with my friends. I refuse to grant a video game company like Riot that level of access to my life though. I'm currently on the DoTA grind and i am sad there is no jungle😭
It goes without saying, but this isn't some phobia about China or the Chinese. If Riot were in bed with the US government I'd be just as fucking repelled by their anticheat. There is no government who I want to have kernel level access to my PC, nor Riot themselves.
And that's just a surface level take. This is a company that has been breached on more than one occasion and we're to trust them to keep their kernel level access to themselves? A company that historically treats and pays its employees poorly? The vectors available to compromise this system boggle the mind.
Its not necessary for LoL.
But Valorant uses it.
If they want to "steal" data, they could already be doing it from Valorant players.
Man i really liked LoL but they shot it in the head right in front of me like a rabbit they made me raise was a pretty rough psyop if u think about it.
Was cheating actually a problem in league in the first place though?
For years they said no and that there were no cheaters; that is up until they wanted vanguard to roll out in which case they posted some BS numbers like 1/10 games have a cheater
@@wwjccsd well you gotta remember the source code got leaked recently which has probably led to more cheaters. But don’t take me saying that as pro vanguard bc that shit is terrible I’ve had the command prompt open multiple times while I was playing league
@@wwjccsd Even if we take the 1/10 games having a cheater thing as legit, are they causing any problems?
This is one part of the discussion I wish people really wouldn't conflate. The existence of cheaters does not necessarily diminish the experience of the other players in an MMR based matchmaking environment.
@@Thundawichikr. 1/10 games has a cheater. If I play 3 games a night with friends there's a high chance I'll never see a cheater. And if I do, it's 20-30 min of inconvenience. I've been playing for 13 years and can't say a single match was ruined by a cheater. Yet here's the highest possible answer to that: an app with more privilege than my OS running 100% of the time.
Let's not forget folks, even before vanguard, they installed the riot client on your PC without any way of uninstalling it! If you un-installed league and didn't go manually removing the riot client that is still there! It just doesn't have any entry in Apps and features!
Now go ahead and give the company with that kind of practice ownership of your PC!
Yes it is always has been but people are too bad to notice
im getting daily blue screens after vanguard, prob fucked me nvidia settings
man I had no choice but to uninstall league, I cannot risk bricking my pc. It's actually so sad
Is monte confirming that the reason why le blanc was nerfed 6 months ago is because the chinese government is trying to prevent me from climbing once again ?
"Scientists have calculated that the chances of something so patently absurd actually existing are millions to one. But magicians have calculated that million-to-one chances crop up nine times out of ten"- this quote, summs up perfectly, whole riot vanguard situation.
All I wanted was to play a neat game with friends when I was a kid, not deal with such a ridiculous cult.
When I mentioned the points Richard made in his video and linked his video to my long time lol group chat, I was told by someone to take my tinfoil hat off as well when I uninstall the game.... which I found to be a little rude since I was being pretty genuine, but I also understand the joke side I. Anyway, this member of the chat also happens to work for Riot in the Valorant teaml, so there is a good chance he has undergone the de-nubification program and is well aware of RL. I also don't know how I feel about the "they have our data already, who cares" argument, because for me it has never been willfully given. But knowing what I know about this program based on Richard's video, and trusting his integrity, it feels willing to give it over. Anyway, i fucking have just done that and gotten the update. I am not giving up on this game just yet. Nope.
KEEN FOR THIS DISCUSSION!!! I WILL EDIT THIS COMMENT WHEN I HAVE FINISHED THE EPISODE. I think more members of the LFN need to have a crack at entering the dialogue, these 4 horseman eps are a treasure trove of talking points
The cheating in games right now is so ridiculuous I don't mind bricking a few PC's & root kitting my PC to not have my time wasted. Yes thats how bad its gotten & thats why things are where they are
Except that these things do absolutely nothing against the cheats that truly affect the games. Soooo Yeahhh good one I guess
Your delusional ofc they do something, that's why at the highest ranks cs is the most littered. You gotta be good at the game to be able to see the cheaters and that's the issue Richard and Thorin have. They are boomers, they are not good players, they are good at speaking about the game, not playing.
👍
1:03:40 sounds like something riot would do...so there's a 0.0000003% chance to break someones PC...how many people cheat, 0.0000003%? brilliant, roll it out