@@productioninquiry8937 Lucy Liu not going to drop off the earth if she's not in any significant films for a little bit, I'd imagine it's more down to pregnancy, I don't blame her, she's in her mid 50's
@CasterTrash I wasn't talking about Lucy Liu specifically. Google the data. Childless women earn more. Pregnancy often causes a financial setback in womens' careers, it's why women are paid less than men because employers anticipate maternity leave and child rearing.
Well, it's what life on earth is for all living creatures that self-multiply. It's all driven by the desire to survive, and you survive in a way if you carry on your genes. I get the desire for it, but I also get the desire for a lavish life, and sometimes you just can't have it. I can't fulfill my dream of becoming a billionair who has her every health need taken care of with lots of money and resource without resorting to some really unethical things. And some people cannot have a bio baby of their own without exploiting women. You either find a work-around that's more ethical, if less satisfying, or you just make your peace with it and move on.
I wasn’t adopted but I was “adopted” by my step mother. I put it in quotations because that’s essentially what it was. My dad and her dated from the time I was age 3, she was told she would never have kids and had many many miscarriages (before I came into the picture) she was the best mother ever to me, she treated me like her own daughter and I called her mommy. (My dad and her had full custody of me and I only would see my biological mother on the weekend so to me she was my mom and I believed that in my heart. Then when I was 5 a miracle happened and my baby sister was born. After that I was no longer wanted and casted aside not only by her but by her family also. The people that I once knew as my family no longer wanted me and purposely excluded me. She gave my dad an ultimatum and told him to give me to my mother full time or they would get a divorce. He tried marriage counseling, she just emotionally/physically abused me heavily to try and get me to leave too, she would punish me for no reason, not feed me, force me to watch my babysister be a child while I was not allowed anything fun. ALL SO I COULD LEAVE. Eventually it got so bad CPS was involved and they told my dad if he didn’t leave he would lose me. (My entire life I was devastated and I still am) the selfish part is I thought I was the only one affected but my little sister was heavily affected also recently she told me this “it was like everyday I would eat breakfast with my dad and sister and then one day they were gone and I went into your room and it was empty and I don’t understand and I repeat it everyday and it never ends) idk what my point was too writing this now I’m emotional all over again but like you said it was only about her and she never cared about me or my sister that was her baby. She just wanted me so she could say she was a mother not to actually be a mother.
I'm really sorry you had to go through that and that really sucks. Rven ppl who have kids out of their own body sometimes treat their own children like shit. Many humans are just not fit to be parents.
I'm sorry this happenedto both you and your sister. I work with a lot of families and i feel unequivocally that most people are not meant to be parents especially when things get difficult. A lot of people do not deserve to be parents and experience the love of a child. To them its not about the unconditional love its about material things such as image and claiming to be a parent but barely doing anything. Again I'm sorry this happened to you, i wish you both the best in life and love.
I’m sorry that you had to go through that 😢 awful ❤ These people kidology used as celebrity examples had a strong percentage of narcissism . Maybe bc they’re celebrities, but then when I read your story, this woman seems like she may apply too 😞
From 3-5 you were a baby. She probably had resentment towards you and wasn't the best mom ever. Children are pure and see good in most people. She just didn't go out of her way to show up to the point a loyal child will see it. People don't change suddenly like that. That new baby just gave her the brave audacity to get you thrown out so she can play house with her new husband and new baby
A lot of surogate babies were abandoned in Ukraine. Some couples broke up, others changed their mind,and others didnt like the way the kid came out. Super messed up
There was a case in Thailand in which the Aussie parents asked the mother to abort a disabled child and she refused so there was a legal limbo for that baby.
@@Reticence9zen924 That would likely be a late-term abortion... A horrifying thought to be pressured into that, because the baby isn't what the customer wanted.
I will either there is a commodification of children. I can have his children because it fits my esthetics. I can make money off of them that could be sponsors for LGBT model brands represent a group to make money from a girl it's weird. There's always been a commodification of children but with social media and this sense of it's OK to see kids in certain dynamics now is becoming. More Rampant
I think there's also a deeper issue here that transcends political lines. Children, generally, aren't really thought of as full people. Their wants and needs arent considered by most parents. Rather, most parents have an idea in their minds of what their child wants and needs, and that certainly goes well, when the two align. But when it differs, most parents cant adjust. This is why we see things like siblings being seperated. The parents don't want to deal with the conflict of having them together, or whatever other reasons, like convenience, they may have for keeping them seperate. We really need to normalize listening to children, and being willing to put their needs first, when possible.
I’ve had similar thoughts when I hear some conservatives talk about home schooling. It makes sense to want to educate your child with similar values as yours, but some of them talk as if they are trying to indoctrinate their children, as if them thinking differently from the parents were a mistake that must be prevented at all costs. When I hear this stuff all that comes to my mind is “bro, your children are their own people, not an extension of yourself. Do guide them, but also let them experience the world and think for themselves”
When have they been full people and not tabula rasa for people to project their ideology on? Then what would be the benefit, biologically, for a male to stay with a child in a LONGTERM nuclear family if there is no proliferation other than his own genes? I forgot where in the symposium Diodica said this but the child is an edxtension of ego, hence it is beautiful bot because of it's own nature.
@@dorje9580 I mean, if you only care about yourself it makes sense, hell, even being a teacher/mentor could in a way make you a “parent” this way, but I think it’s wrong to forcibly make your child a copy of you. If they want to be like you that’s fine, and as a parent, especially when they’re young, you should impose certain limits/rules to ensure they grow up as well adjusted individuals, but anything beyond that just sounds like indoctrination to me. Also don’t underestimate genes, because personality and psychological traits are all inheritable
This is my thought exactly regarding the issue of abortion. The crux of the issue in the mainstream discourse about it is that some people don't think the child in the womb is an actual child that deserves basic human rights. I don't know if it's always been this way, but it seems like most people who are candidates for being parents are so incredibly narcissistic. Whether it's what's going on with surrogacy and IVF where people feel they are owed a biological child regardless of the constraints of reality that maybe are there for the well being of any potential child in the first place, or what's going on with parent's trying to use their child as a political pawn via "trans kids" or bringing their very young children to testify at rallies.
This could literally turn into the handmaid’s tale where the rich and wealthy women use poor vulnerable women to give birth to their children in order to feed their own families. Sad how liberal western society mock traditional people , however they’ve created their own version of cult like behavior by worshipping their careers and “dreams”.
There is nothing liberal about these people. Kim Kardashian is a conservative and most celebrities are capitalist conservatives that parade around like liberals because it’s better for their careers
@@jordinometry1589 the hyper individualistic nature of liberalism as a philosophy is not just compatible with capitalism, it thrives on capitalism. Being open to others ideas is one definition of liberal but is not really the crucial definition
I'm sorry but is everyone referring to the same Handmaids Tale? That was based on stripping women's rights to the point of dehumanization. If anything the "traditional family" mindset ideology was radicalized by the extremists religion portrayed in the book. Those women were not paid for their services, they were forced and undoubtedly oppressed. I understand that this is a serious topic, and I'm still learning about it but let's not mix apples and oranges. This is about Americas capatilist structure and though I can't say I fully agree with monetizing surrogacy, atleast these women are making that choice. I think it CAN be a very generous and selfless process for those who can not carry children for whatever reason or struggle with fertility.
For me the problem is rooted in the belief that the parents have a “right” to have a baby. In my opinion you don’t have a right to being a parent, it’s a gift, a responsibility you take on out of love. The child comes first, not you. If you cannot tailor your life around that (aka I didn’t want to stop working/ my husband and I couldn’t make our schedules coincide) then you’re not ready to be a parent.
Only women can make babies for a reason. Only those who women see fit for reproduction will experience parenthood. It’s not a right. Laws need to be put in place to protect women from all over the world, who are going to be exploited for this. Forced to carry pregnancies for rich people.
@sadsheogre Ah yes, because women have immaculate judgment whenever it comes to deciding whom will parent the child. Casually ignores single motherhood rate.
Is there something we haven't commercialized yet at this point ? Also, what happens if the child doesn't come as expected? What becomes of them? Are there any laws in place for situations like this? Those are actual human beings, not toys you can give back to a store and ask for a refund. This is so painfully dystopian, it's terrifying.
No, capitalism touches every part of human life. As long as we have capitalism, everything will be commercialized. Laws around what happens when the child doesn't come out as expected differ by location. In Ukraine, there have been some reported cases of international intended parents who abandoned their surrogacy-born children (there's a whole documentary about one case), this often has to do with birth defects or heavy disabilities. There is sadly no legal mechanism to prosecute those parents for abandoning those kids in many countries. That is something that is sorely needed. I mean, it's not as if you have to raise the child if you don't want to if it comes out "wrong". They could still give the child up for adoption, legally, to give it a chance at a family. I've also seen a case of a surrogate (who posted on TikTok but I think isn't doing it anymore for legal reasons?) in the US where the intended parents never showed up to get the twins. So she is left raising them. That too needs a legal framework: If intended parents leave the children with the surrogate, they need to be forced to pay child support. If it is well regulated, surrogacy is not all that dystopian. It's a pretty normal part of human life and has been all throughout history. It's simply that nowadays, we have the option of gestational surrogacy. But traditional surrogacy has been a thing for thousands of years, and in countries where surrogacy is illegal it is something people still do, just without telling the government.
My respect for Grimes was lost when she decided to rent another woman's womb, because she didn't like being pregnant and wanted to make more kids with Mr absent father to ~10 kids.
one of my best friends is the product of his 64 year old widowed mother hiring a surrogate and sperm donor to create him and his brother. Surely 23 years ago, there was no oversight over surrogacy adoption whatsoever. It’s truly heartbreaking because she’s now in her late eighties and has dementia, doesn’t remember who her sons are, and lives in a senior home when my friend just graduated college, which she couldn’t attend. It’s even worse because we found out a few years back that she hid (or forgot about) an audio file from his biological father, who we now know lives only 30 minutes away but is refusing contact. we did a dna test that has found over 2 dozen half siblings all over the country! Luckily, a family from our school took him under their wing when we were in high school, but what if they hadn’t? It’s a miracle he’s as well adjusted as he is. It’s a seriously messed up situation and the world needs more people advocating for the wellbeing of children/good birthing intent. It’s very personal, but I agree with you that it’s vitally important. I don’t believe “normal” families exist, but I know my friend deserved better.
Surrogacy agencies will sell a baby to whoever can pay for them. They don't care about the welfare of the child or the "parents" reason for wanting a baby The adoption & foster systems aren't perfect. But at least they have some standards in place and won't just hand a baby to anyone (at least thats true for ethical ones)
@@MsBrendalina it’s especially sad to me because the surrogacy mother and donor father have at least 3 children of her own (and had children before donating). I can’t fathom how they could’ve agreed to what they did.
I've seen a vile news story on YT of Georgian surrogates - a mother was forced to labour alone and someone slapped her uterus to get the baby out and she wasn't allowed to hold the baby to stop her bonding and the baby was left to cry until the parents arrive.
That is incredibly messed up. That’s the ugly side the western media won’t show much of. The lack of natural bonding between mother and child. But they glamorize it as some great societal good that a woman can just conveniently schedule a surrogacy the same way she would a Pap smear. So disgusting
I saw that too and the newborn was in a corner by himself in a plastic incubator crying, and they said his parents were over in China and “too busy” to come to his birth and wouldn’t be able to come pick him up for SEVERAL MONTHS! The woman and the baby were both treated like objects, it was so sad.
Something about able bodied women choosing surrogacy over carrying a child is depressing and dystopian, tbh. Especially, when the reason is not wanting to stop working….fyi you’re going to have to stop/cut back to actually raise the kid. It’s so cringey to hear a woman say she’ll chose motherhood out of what is essentially boredom and not desire. It’s it just seems disengaged from humanity. Also, just like prostitution, it will be ‘the poors’ who bear the physical and emotional brunt of this phenomenon. It’s giving Handmaidens Tale.
The vast majority of people who choose to use surrogacy to have a child do so out of some sort of medical necessity. In the case of actors and models, a medical necessity may be having to preserve their bodies because those are how they make money. Handmaid's Tale was about a christofascist state that forced women to be raped, to be impregnated, to carry pregnancies and to give birth, and then forcefully separated them from those children. Not even commercial surrogacy works like that. Surrogates have to CONSENT to the process beforehand. There was no consent in The Handmaid's Tale.
@@TheYasmineFlower not all surrogates consent. Just saying.. you seem very pressed about this. Have you gone through this process? Why do you defend it so much?
@@TheYasmineFlower lol preserving your body as a money maker is not a medical necessity, it’s not even a financial one. Get a gym membership or pastor surgeon. It’s vapid and anti-human to do surrogacy for non-medical reasons. Also you’re nuts if you think all surrogates consent, or at the very least, aren’t pushed in that direction due to financial lack. There is a reason why it’s rich women/families doing surrogacy and relatively poor women who are offering their bodies for use in this way. There are rich, fertile able bodied women who do not offer themselves for these services, even for family and friends. Why is that?
This is such an important topic. I was thrilled when you mentioned Mary Harrington’s book! Incredible read. Surrogacy is renting a woman, she becomes almost a slave to her contract, and her baby that has grown inside her, listened to her voice and the sound of her heart, is ripped away from her (look up the Primal Wound). The amount of crossover with human trafficking is disturbing to say the least. Children are not products to be bought and sold
I do think it will become more " normal" & acceptable for most ppl to have a surrogate. Just a couple of years ago only celebrities could get plastic surgery now especially in the US many regular ppl are getting cosmetic surgery. I know 2 women who are doing surrogacy. One is a 32 year old women with 4 kids who loves being pregnant & now carries the babies of cancer survivors. The other is a 20 something year old woman with one son carrying a wealthy business women's child because she needs money to complete her studies& be able to raise her son. Surrogacy agencies are of the devil. There is alot of abuse of young girls going on & the prospective parents will never even know. If babies are born " ugly" or disabled or deemed unsuitable for the couple the kid may be dumped or even killed. They often work with government agencies so these kids births are concealed & no one really know what happens to them after they are born.
Its clearly shady and illuminati based. lots of room for abuse and crime. high ranking criminals already use “breeders,” basically slaves used just to bear children to be sacrificed to satan.
True I’d like more children so my son can have siblings but I don’t want to deal with the woman I’ve been open to looking for a surrogate for the last 12 yrs
My partner and I decided to not have kids at age 42. We really wanted to. We were both each others second marriage and we both really want kids. By the time we met and knew it was right, medically, it turned out pregnancy was not looking to be in my cards even with medical intervention. Which left us with surrogacy or adoption. Both things require a ton of money just to get in the door. It's pretty effed if you ask me because I think we'd be good parents. Just not wealthy parents. I know we made the right choice for us not to push it. I had a hysterectomy to fix my issues and its made me feel physically so much better. It's something I'll always wonder about though. I hope in the future we'll be able to adopt an older child.
@@stef4746 it's a double edged sword. Children need to be protected but at the same time they should be out in good family that can take care of them and that really what them . Accepting the first come could be dangerous
@@LilSyl05 100%, but there has to be ways in which we can make adoption less expensive. It’s in society’s best interest to allow children to be raised in good families.
@@stef4746 I'd like to hear your suggestions. I remember watching dr Phil the other talk with foster kids and their life was really sad. They were neglected as fuck. Imagine a person not wanting the child he fostered or adopted 😥
HAS NO ONE READ “THE GIVER” ?!?!?!This needs to become 100% illegal. No one is entitled to children. I am barren and I’ve made my peace with that. Now we have a class of workers and surrogate’s. It’s not just people dealing with infertility (not that that makes it better, but at least there are stakes) now people just can’t be bothered, kids are just accessories. This is so disgusting.
There should be less stigma around people not wanting children and also less stigma around not wanting biological children but wanting adoptive ones.. Or fostering.. Also, i didn't read the novel but I did watched 'the giver' and Brenton Thwaites is a great actor
@@Iamhere829yes this is the root cause imo. If we didnt create a whole culture of “unwanted children”, some ppl wouldnt have turned out socialised into feeling “more connected” to a biological stranger over an infant/child from the system. Idk how exactly we could solve an age old way but maybe positive representations of adopted children in stories and movies could move the needle rather than always sharing the struggle side that other ppl might not want to sign up for.
Mary Harrington recently tweeted: "Surrogacy bakes mother-loss into a baby’s earliest experience - and inflicts this loss on a profoundly vulnerable infant, in the name of adult desire." And I think that really is correct. I think surrogacy is cruel unless it's done by someone close to the parents, who is going to stay a close figure in the child's life. To say that the woman who grew that baby in her body for 9 months and gave birth to them isn't their mother is just despicable.
Mary Harrington is a TERF and allies herself with fascists like Tucker Carlson, Posie Parker, JK Rowling... I wouldn't take anything she tweets seriously.
I don't know anyone who was adopted, but I would I would imagine that losing their mothers early on does damage children who are adopted. I can't see how it wouldn't. However, I'm not morally against adoption because it isn't exploitation (hopefully). Generally mothers who adopt out their babies are unable to properly care for them, whereas commercial surrogates are being exploited for their wombs.
@Macy I recommend the series..Long lost Families for many examples of separation via adoption. For many it is a life time of a gapping hole of loss in their heart
@@Reticence9zen924 I think if the “seller” does due diligence in going through the legal processes to make sure the adopting family is safe, it doesn’t have to be such an evil thing.
@@gummy5862 I think the point that kidololy is making is that there is no no such thing as due diligence and legal process in thind wold countries and that this whole thing is exploitative and its coming from the elitist class that claim to care so deeply about the welfare of third world countries
I'm childfree and I remember reading this comment on a childfree video: "children deserve better". This speaks to world in which children are born; the emotional, psychological and economic state of BOTH parents; communities of care and collective ethics. In essence, children deserve better and we as a species are mostly ill equipped to provide this. I know I sure as hell don't have the wherewithal to parent, hence childfree.
I would argue that motherhood wasn't a private venture in a lot of traditional cultures. It was always everyone's business. Especially when we lived in smaller communities. But now we live in that large urban community and have internet, so that's where it gets weird
Agreed. Celebs are leveraging their pregnancies for attention now. But mega stars have to disclose or go into hiding because the paparazzi will hunt them down.
If you think about it… 9 months of pregnancy plus dealing with post partum recovery is easily a year out of work. So the amount these celebrities are paying for surrogates is pennies. I make more with my job and am not destroying my perfect body. I would ask for at least a million dollars to surrogate.
@@theblacklapinou Not always. If that was the case more non-white women would be gestational carriers. I would love to see studies on the income and education level of most gestational carriers.
@@productioninquiry8937 sadly, the only studies on the topic I could find are based on “native” surrogate mothers located in the UK, USA, and Canada. A big majority of them are middle class christians. However, out of the 25’000 born to surrogate mothers in the united states (2008), only 1000 of them took place in the united states. The one article I read was based on interviews of a hundred of these one thousand woman, so 1/10th of 1/25th of a very specific sample. The surrogate industry is valued at 450 million dollars in india. (Sources: “Revisiting The Handmaid’s Tale: Feminist Theory Meets Empirical Research on Surrogate Mothers” -Karen Busby, -Delaney Vun (2010)) So, to me the problem is, those 24’000 international surrogate, how do we assume they are protected? Can an Indian woman sue the “parents” in the US if they change their mind during the surrogate pregnancy and can she force them to pay her? What if she miscarry, is she still compensated? How do we supervise the buying and selling of children and the renting of women’s bodies internationally? How are these women protected and supported?
This has caused many to cry for International Child Laws and strict regulations on Commercial Surrogacy. I totally missed the Baby Manji controversy back in 2008, but these really are untested waters, and people really shouldn't be playing with human lives like this.
I'm not sure what this has to do with liberalism or feminism. Since the beginning of time, people with the most money/power/resources have seen the bodies of the poor as their property, to use and abuse at their will for their profit or pleasure.
In an episode of Dubai Bling (yes, I love trash), some rich ladies spoke about the alienation of their husbands' expectation that they keep getting pregnant -- and having a surrogate to fill that role was a proposed solution. And I thought: not for the surrogate!
What happened was one of the wives wanted to get a surrogate she’s originally from Britain but another woman said that’s looked down upon in the Middle East
I am glad you spoke honestly about Kim's health issues while pregnant. Kim has said she would have stopped having kids after two, but Kanye wanted a larger family.
I remember just about oxytocin and it's bonding qualities for people being a part of the process of giving birth as a ton of it is released during the process and it helps with forming that connection between the mother and child. Now I wonder what surrogacy means for this and how it impacts child abandonment in this whole thing.
People bond with adopted children or children born via Cesarean section just fine, so that won't be a problem. Also, women who go through natural birth can suffer from depression after it. It's a traumatic experience.
@@moononthewindynight27 so women who go through natural birth can have depression.. so a cash strapped young woman carries an births a child for a pitiful amount of money and can end up life threateningly depressed... seems like a poor deal to me
After our twins girls, we considered surrogacy. My pregnancy was very hard with a lot of bleeding/bed rest/medicines. But we decided not to go through. It feels transactional, like going shopping. Surrogacy is only for convenience.
@@productioninquiry8937even in the case of being a woman being unable to carry a baby to term on her own, surrogacy is a choice made out of convenience. It’s too inconvenient to deal with the disappointment and trauma of those experiences or to pursue parenthood with children who are not genetically related, so instead they outsource child bearing. I can sympathize with what led to their decision but it’s still one made out of convenience and concern only for one’s own desires.
@@morgannyan2738birthing people is different from breeders tho? Birthing people includes women and intersex/other gender people who are giving birth? It's like getting offended at being called money earning people? Or care taking people?
To me it is like a double edged sword. There are pro's and con's. The biggest con to me is the commercial aspect of this. As a gay man, who always also wanted to be a father I have been through the thought processes... in the end, because it is not just a happy accident - I thought it would be selfish. Looking at the state of the world, etc. Do I want to put another human being through all this crap, make them a wage-slave most likely, and so forth. Also keeping in mind LGBTI+ are like a natural equalizer in overpopulations, why go against that nature? Adoption was also an option, there are already plenty of children that need a loving, caring home. But it isn't all that easy.
The only real pro: you get to have a baby. But do more babies really wanna be in this god fordaken worls? No. They dont. They keep coming bc we keep pumping them out. For ourselves. Having a baby is almost always for the birther, never for the child. It actually is that simple if u detach your emotional desire to have a baby.
@@Pomagranite167 The babies don't want to be in the world? All of us are in the world, and every day that we choose to continue living is a day that we choose to be in the world. You're choosing to be in the world today because you're choosing to live.
Some celebrity paying someone an insane amount of money to birth their kid is a lot less concerning than the horrifying concept of baby factory in poorer countries, prostitution sounds like a much better life.
I can see how this trend will quickly turn into a slippery slope into something sinister and dangerous. If something proves to be profitable, there will be those who want a piece of it. Basically what I'm saying is this surrogacy thing can easily turn into another sort of human trafficking if not strictly regulated.
I would love to agree with Kidology's POV. But based on all the unplanned kids I know who are now adults, and their lackluster upbringing, the natural way isn't producing better people in many instances. 50% of US pregnancies are unplanned. They're less prepared than Lucy Lui and the children are not being considered either. WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?!?!
What does that have to do with the argument? You're saying "The average American doesn't use protections and is a bad parent for unplanned parenthood", so tell me where that applies to "I want children, but having a big belly bothers me, so I'll just buy someone's body for it and if the baby isn't good I'll throw it away"
@dontmindmefangirling3123 Most people who use surrogates do it because they cannot physically carry children due to health risk, age, or fertility troubles. Kidology posited that people who employ surrogates as a luxury would or could in some way rear worse children, unhappy children, or traumatized children, as opposed to women who have carried their own children. There is no data to support this. Many naturally birthed children are unplanned, many planned children grow up in households plagued with abuse and divorce, many unplanned children grow up lacking basic necessities. In reality, a child born to a family that can afford a surrogate for luxury would be the child with access to the most resources. Greater resources yield better outcomes for children overall. Based on Kidology's assumptions, adopting should immediately be a source of trauma. I like Kidology, but she's projecting hard.
I personally don't have a problem with it, some people like baby-making but they don't like baby raising. Some people want a kid, but can't make it themselves. They work together in a way that happens to benefit both parties. As for the kids born of it, assuming that you're not anti-natalist, existence is better than non-existence. As for the possibility of exploitation of the surrogates, we definitely need to have strong laws and regulations that make it clear that they have rights. That said, imagine if we did this with farming, don't do farming because some people who farm are actually forced into it. No, continue farming, but punish harshly slavers. Just because it's an unusual way of using one's body doesn't mean that the woman in question shouldn't have the right to decide. As for the renting of a human, I would like to point out that we rent people all the time. When I hire somebody to do my grandmother's lawn, I hire a guy for their muscles and biceps to push the lawn mower back and forth. I don't see why surrogates should be unfairly stigmatized.
The modern form of surrogacy means the kid is biologically the kid of both parents. It is the mother's egg and the father's sperm but for whatever reason the mother can't carry a kid to term. Having a uterus that isn't up to snuff can happen to anyone, and I actually think it is very cool there are women out there who are willing to help a couple have a kid. A kid who is biologically THEIRS, not hers.
Glad you've chosen to dive into the surrogacy issue. However, I think its unfair to point towards second wave feminism as being part of the initiative towards surrogacy because of "the personal is political" aspect of feminist theory. 1) " The personal is political " was never about taking private life into public life for consumption. It was about the oppression that occurred behind closed doors for women, such as rape and abuse in the family, had actually larger sociopolitical hand that promotes, encourages and normalizes it and creates it. Which, from what I can tell, is true. Capitalism is a structured hierarchy. That hierarchical structure is class, sex and race, hence why certain oppressions exist and have existed since it's inception. They're inherent in the social structure of capitalism and is necessary for its existence. Ergo, women's oppression in the private home is due to the political necessity to control the reproduction that reproduces the society. Women's oppression is based on exploiting what's seen as "human resources" ie the working class, slave class, indigenous occupiers ect. 2) And because of this understanding that the personal is political, second wave feminists have always been staunchly against surrogacy and in particular the market of surrogacy as an industry. Sooooooo where is the link that you've made that implicates "the personal is political" and second wave feminism ie radical feminism to the free market surrogacy industry? (Side eyeing 3rd wave/Liberal feminism of being part of the problem, I cannot disagree with you there. They are and in a lot more ways and within a lot more avenues than just surrogacy, too, no qualms there) In fact, if this topic is of interest to you there's some great books out there that really delves into the issues of surrogacy written by radical feminists. Such as Living Laboratories by Robyn Rowland. Jennifer Bilek is an independent journalist who does a deep dive into transhumanism and the free market industry that's trying to open up even more of the reproductive market and emerge that with the tech industry, in her blog " the 11th hour blog", which can easily be found with a quick Google search.
I was going to write the same! Kid has so many great points in this video but the reference to "the personal is political" was a complete misunderstanding of the motto.
Honestly, I don't understand the problem. No one is forcing these women to be surrogates. If that's their way to earn money or help someone, why can't people mind their business? If I had money like all these celebrities, I would also pay a willing woman to be a gestational carrier because I suffer from tokophobia and will likely never have a child because of that. As long as the surrogate is treated and paid fairly, I don't see an issue. People give their kidneys, bone marrow, etc., to others; so, if someone wants to carry someone else' child for nine months, why not?
Agreed, it feels like the people who speak out so strongly about these issues have never suffered with fertility issues and don't understand the desire that many women with these issues have for a biological child. If someone is willing to help them, and is compensated fairly, I see no issue.
Perhaps you should just not have children. A fear of pregnancy is logical because it can result in death or health problems..eg teeth falling out.. prolapses...all kinds of health problems that can affect the rest of your life. But pay a poor woman to take all these long term risks.. because she is poor and of less importance than the person with money..
@@the_boss3421 how can compensation be fair for such a task? And people are always trying to get cheaper while dictating to the woman like a slave. Also what happens when the payers for some reason reject the child..which happens
@@farmhouseonthemountain I'm glad you both have a daughter - you went through an experience many go through (miscarriages) before achieving that goal. And instead of your losses and the birth of your daughter giving you empathy, it's made you bitter. You don't want anyone else who struggles (and isn't lucky enough to finally be successful) to be able to have children of their own. You probably need therapy. Try some introspection and examine your twisted motivations and your own soul, and you'll realise you're both wrong.
I'm kinda annoyed that apparently everything is now feminisms fault... How is commercial surrogacy a consequence of feminism? I genuinely didn't understand the argument that was supposedly made in this video?
Exactly ! Without feminism, domestic violence and abuse would not be punished, no right to vote, no jobs, etc. I grew up in a patriarchal religious society and it was hellish...
This is one of your best investigations Z, and so much more to unpack in terms of power and wealth dynamics and the ethical implications for all involved.
This was very hard to watch. I see where Kid is coming from, but I think her viewpoint may be oversimplified by a few disgusting examples. Celebrities are a very tinny-tiny percentage of the global population and most people using gestational carriers are not doing it for the sake of vanity. Less than 10% of the world’s population earns $100k a year, which is the average cost of surrogacy. I’m quite older than the audience, and I may be biased because we have been trying for 7 yrs, and the journey is harrowing. I think there needs to be more regulation around this…part of the problem is that governments refuse to touch it…there are simply no laws around surrogacy in most countries…it’s neither legal nor illegal..just diy You’re right about one thing though. The children are never considered. Not even in a biological setting if you really think about it
Having a child is always inherently selfish and vain. Very few ppl have a child thinking "i want my child to have a good life". They think "my child will give me a good life" if yiu did what was best for a chuld you'd never bring one into the world bc humanity is going to hell in a handbasket
@@Pomagranite167 Yes, that’s why parents take the massive risk of pregnancy, complications, lack of sleep, etc. and are ready to work 3 jobs and if everything else fails die for their kids as long as they can be safe and well. Sounds super selfish 😂
@@laraveinberg5648 however you put it, it's still selfish. Lol. We were not born for our own benefit, but for our parent's...but that's something I have accepted. As tough as life has been, I'm grateful for the family I came through and for the relationship I have with my mother and sister❤️...and I cannot wait to have that relationship with my future daughter. I think people with such hardline views againt procreation are just not realistic about the complexities of life🤷🏽♀️
@@Jen-Inspired I agree. If that is what we call selfish, then yes, it is. It’s selfish to stay alive, kill an animal so you can be fed, kill a plant for tools and to continue existing. It’s in the nature of things and clashes hard with the human condition (especially in modern times). But whether something selfish is inherently vain, wrong or harmful, I’d argue with OP about that! Hope you have the family you’re dreaming of 😊
I cant quite put my finger on why, but essentially buying someone to use them (their body) is uncomfortable to me. But then again, I dont agree with paying for use of another person's body flat out. We like to think of ourselves in brains in vat, essentially so far apart from our physical bodies that we hardly have a connection to it - but in my opinion, our entire nevous system proves how much of an illusion this is. I do not agree with buying a person for sex acts, nor do I think there should be markets for body parts and organs or human slavery. It is very strange that people can essentially pay for an experience, that I feel for so many other life circumstances, people are told to accept it is not something they can ever have. It's part of the cards you are dealt. But with pregnancy, birthing and motherhood you can now purchase that experience? Seeing humans as a commodity for purchase like any other object on the supermarket shelf. Thanks for the food for thought
Exactly, just because we have the "comodity" to do something it doesn't mean we should. Society as a whole os becoming this empty mush of nastiness. Everyone is very selfish, they just want their needs met no matter the consequences
Some people are required to pay to have kids (be that paying for a sperm donation in case of a single woman or a lesbian couple, for example, or accessing fertility treatments) because that is the way the system is structured. Lots of people try to make it only an issue of paying for it, when their actual goal is preventing people who do not conform to their ideals of how you should live to realize their dreams. For example, homophobic people who couch their homophobic objections to queer people having babies in "ethical concerns about gamete donation and surrogacy".
@@TheYasmineFlower Lol, they're not required, they're just narcissists. If you and your partner can't naturally have a child together, just stop there and get a grip of your ego.
@@TheYasmineFlower are you really comparing sperm donation that has zero physical risks for a man, to risky pregnancy and childbirth that can literally lead to death or lifelong health consequences for surrogate mothers if complications occur? What the F is wrong with you mentally? I really hope karma exists. Stop pretending to be a good human who cares about others well being when you support people taking advantage of womens bodies, health and even lives, just because they're in a better financial situation than the desperate people they exploit.
I peronally feel like if you have to pay to have a kid.....you probably should just accept the kid thing is just not in the cards for you. Not everyone gets to have what they want. Sorry.
It’s so dystopian to trade your youth for money, to have enough money to afford children once is riskier to have them, to then rent the womb of young people that need money that may not have enough money to have their own kids afterwards
This was an interesting listen as my friend just used a surrogate (she can’t carry a child) and after I had my child I was approached about being a surrogate myself by a company (no thank you, my pregnancy was hard). We are both in the USA but as she talked about the process and how it was presented to me, it didn’t sound more exploitative than other jobs that damage your body overtime (manual labor jobs or professional sports), but with potentially better protections as step one was a lot of lawyering about a contract where both sides have representation. I can see it being really exploitative when it goes international and the surrogates just live in the place with the least regulation. Thank you for your opinion and giving me a lot to think about.
Seems a woefully inadequately paid job to me.. you said your own was hard.. how much money would have been sufficient to compensate..then to hand the baby over and perhaps never even have word again?
@@helendancelot I think it depends on the person. I know some people who had easy pregnancies and loved being pregnant. You just don't know beforehand. I can also see a person being okay with handing over a baby, especially if they went into the process knowing it wasn't going to be raised by them. Bonding with your baby isn't automatic or instant, it's different per person and can take months (people really gloss over this when talking about pregnancy and babies). At least you know the child is going to a couple who wants a child enough to go through this (IVF isn't exactly easy on you either). I really don't see anything morally or inherently wrong with being a surrogate if you go in with proper protections and rights. There is a wide range of experiences when it comes to being pregnant and birthing a baby. Bad jobs have had way more negative long term effects on my health and body than my pregnancy, and I wasn't being paid fairly there either.
Ok but a baby bond with the carrier even before birth. How many newborns do you think would want to be seperated? Is that trauma worth less just because they cant talk did not agree and dont get payed?
@@iknowyouwanttofly Not an expert on this, but I don't think that giving birth to baby = good and strong attachment bond with baby. There may be some truth to them recognizing your voice, but I think it is more important for a baby to be loved and cared for after birth to form a strong bond. My baby is very attached to my husband and my mom, and I think it is because they have been a reliable source of cuddles and comfort.
@@iknowyouwanttofly I am also irked by the idea of giving birth being the most important factor in bonding with your baby, as far as their well being and your relationship goes. Birth is so short compared to the rest of your relationship with your child as a parent, and dads are important. There is no way to automatically create a loving bond with your baby or child that is gender specific. You need to love and care for them every day to build this. In my opinion, the most important thing for a child is to have a parent who is willing and able to love and care for them, whether they gave birth to them or not. (And even if you are the birthing mother keeping your child, something like a NICU stay or other medical issues means you have to be seperated anyway, but people still bond with their children after that.)
thanks for talking about this! i might be a hopeless delulu young woman but I feel tides are turning and people are finally opening their eyes. Videos like this are necessary !!!!!
Why even restrict surrogacy to wanna-be parents? It might be economical for corporations to just grow and train their own employees. Once you have removed the rights of the mother (who has grown the child in her own body regardless of the genetic make-up) to keep her child you are legalising human trafficking.
The difference between this and birth control? Technological society is what it is. You accept the good (the internet, liberated sexuality thanks to birth control) with the bad (ethical dilemmas surrounding surrogates as an example). Brave new world.
The difference is that one involves the exploitation of working class women who are treated appallingly by these commercial surrogacy companies while the other literally affects no one apart from the person taking the birth control. You’d have to be brain dead to think that these actions are remotely similar in their ethical implications.
i worry that the growth of this industry will actually result in many people adopting antinatalist beliefs, this seems like it'll add fuel to an already flawed belief that is already gaining steam. Excellent video
Interested why you're against antinatalism? We know that suffering and death are guarantees in life while joy and happiness are not. If we do not consider any philosophical belief that the soul goes on and we're here for a purpose, and assume that the physical is all there is, then beings are forced into this world not through their consent of wanting to exist, but because parents want them for selfish/ biologically programmed reasons. People are created to suffer and die for someone else's pleasure. That is the short of it. I don't see how it isn't logically better to not exist if we're operating on the logic that less suffering is a moral good. I would be interested to hear your perspective.
@@FullMetalFeline No, humans, together with all animals, are created via their parents so life can continue. This is the meaning of life. To go on and be. Our genes want to persist existing, we are the way in which the universe experiences itself. We are at the mercy of our genes. Your views about life and death are incredibly selfish. Ask the bird if it wants to live, ask the fish, damn, ask your own cells. Of course, we can’t, because we are the only ones burdened with self-awareness. Those creatures and simple cells have less freedom and options, but they still play their part in the circle of life. We don’t know why and how exactly life happened to start on our little planet, I don’t think it’s wise to decide it should end. Especially considering the miracle that is the human species.
In India there were a few incidents of foreigners coming for surrogacies and abandoning the child when the baby had health issues or down syndrome. After that the government banned commercial surrogacy. Esp for foreigners to come here and do this. I think every country especially in the global south needs to ban surrogacy. Going to third world countries to exploit those women further is despicable
10:36 "the personal is political" was originally conceived as a rallying cry against the ways society and state failed to address misogynistic abuse. DV, SA, CSA, were often legally viewed as "personal" matters that ought to be resolved in the home or office. This is substantially differt from the current discourse about things like dating preferences.
I think it's great that people choose to have kids when they feel more able and set in life, but the flip side is treating kids not as people, but a cold, hard investment, and that part is gross to the marrow.
@@tserln1149 Investing in people because you care is very different to investing in kids for your own benefit and not theirs, and many do not do the former.
14:31 Most mothers would say the real brunt of motherhood is raising and caring for a human for 18+ years, not pregnancy and postpartum for those who end up with depression.
Sperm donation should also be banned i have seen so many men do it for money. My friends whole life ruined when her husband decide to donate it to sister in law. And later he got feelings towards that child and now he is bringing that child into her and their childrens life all of a sudden. Ps sister in law and brother in law got divorced,niether of them wanted to take the child so his uncle / biological father take him home. But this ruined my friends whole life and biggest injustice happened with their children as now they have to share their father and everything with someone else. They lost all of their rights. Please sperm donation should be banned. Their happy family ruined because of this.
Im deeply terrified of the direction western societies are going. I’m terrified of surrogacy being legal in my country (it’s not). I’m terrified of this future of liberalism and transhumanism. I care for human beings first. I hate the bourgeoise.
Omg I was not expecting that... I knew puppy mills existed. Those are sad and terrible conditions the animals experience hidden away.. amd now there are baby baking basements? ( sorry for alliteration couldn't help myself) ugh 😑 consumerism is really getting gout of hand Je t'aime kid❤❤
To put it in context, it isn't only surrogates in Ukraine that have to give birth in bomb shelters. And the reason they give birth there isn't pure malice or something, but simply the invasion that Russia is waging on Ukraine. As unethical as some of the Ukrainian surrogacy agencies are (and there are quite a few things to say about them), they would likely prefer the surrogates to give birth in a hospital where the intended parents can pick the child up without trudging through a war zone. These surrogates are not hidden away and forced to breed. Those conditions occur in the world but are called "baby farms" and do not involve a surrogacy process, but kidnapping, rape, forced birth and illegal adoptions.
i find myself conflicted about some of your points in this one. of course there are horror stories about the mistreatment of surrogates in ukraine, georgia, etc. and i can see how it can be morally disturbing to some to hear about women pay other women to bear their children for them. but i don't blame women like kim kardashian for seeking out alternatives if their bodies have complications that could put them or their child at risk. and with gestational surrogacy, at least regarding a male and female couple, the child may not have the identity crises that an adopted child, commercial surrogacy, or donor IVF child may have; they could still be rest assured that they are their parents' child genetically, and that there were just complications physically/emotionally/financially that required the child to be carried by someone else (perhaps a naïve take since i don't have personal experience with any of the above. it just seems like a child would be able to swallow that reality vs the reality of the other pregnancy alternatives listed). in the western world, if a woman has the choice and desire to become a surrogate (there are stories of surrogates who do it because they love the idea of helping infertile couples grow a family) then i think she should have the freedom to do so. also regarding paris and carter, i'm not sure what their opting for surrogacy has to do with the problem that he's physically and emotionally abandoning his daughter. it's a horrible irresponsible thing, but from what you've explained it seems like their whole situation would've been the same even if paris had a natural birth. seems like he was set on abandoning his daughter from the beginning, long before another child was introduced.
The thing is,Kim already had children, she just wants more. Just because we want something, it doesn't mean we should get it no matter what. You are only thinking about her wants and not considering that 1. The woman giving her body probably needs the money desperately (such as cases of sexual workers), the child will be taken away from it's biological mother (as much as people hate this idea, it is true, it is best for children to be attached, preferably be born naturally and breastfed). As much as it is not always posible and I understand that, you wouldn't just choose to the "whatever" thing for a child. Who is thinking of these children? Everyone is saying how much the parent want more and more and easier. That's not what having a child it's about. I find it selfish to do "whatever you must not matter what" just for a personal want. Life is not fair, not everyone gets what they want and that doesn't give people the right to continue to BUY humans
I suspect that the number who do surrogacy for the feels and enjoyment will be a smaller and smaller percentage as the commercial aspect increases due to desperate poverty
@@Kaybye555 interested in what you mean by "buying humans". are you referring to buying the surrogate mother, as if she is a slave? because that's really just not what surrogacy is in the modern western world. the surrogate has her rights and enters into surrogacy on her own terms. it is a service she chooses to provide, whether for money, to help an infertile family, or otherwise. i see it similarly to selling plasma (though i recognize it's certainly not as intense, expensive, and time-consuming as carrying a child). you seem to be painting a grim picture over all surrogacies, and that just doesn't seem to be the reality. there are infertile couples who would truly do anything to have a child to love and care for, and it seems to be insensitive to tell them "suck it up, life's not fair, deal with it" when there are women who would be happy to help carry a child for them when they cant. there are also women who are happy to provide surrogacy services; just look up testimonials. also, if it is a gestational surrogacy, the surrogate mother is not the biological mother because the child has the DNA of the mother and father for whom she is surrogating, not the surrogate's DNA.
You can't pay me enough to become a surrogate. Child birth is extremely painful. Those contractions are no joke and postpartum depression makes you feel homicidal/suicidal. Even if I could hire a surrogate I wouldn't because I dont trust that woman enough to take care of my unborn baby. Knowing me I would want to control what she eats and what she does to make sure my baby is healthy. To give a stranger your own baby to grow and not think about them until they are born tells me you don't really care for that baby.
I have many qualms with service but my number one problem with it is the fact that you could just adopt instead of renting a womb. Unless you're in a very specific situation like you're a queer couple and your Living in a place where you're not allowed to adopt legally.
This is actually a bit of a fallacy and not the best comparison. One aspect that surrogacy enables is a blood-related child to at least one of the intended parents. This can be important in cultures where blood is valued highly, whereas an adopted child might not be accepted by the extended family. Another aspect is that adoption is multifaceted: In some places like Australia, only a handful of babies are placed for adoption each year. So for someone who wants to raise a child from infancy, adoption is unlikely to work out. They can try to adopt domestically but it can take many, MANY years and there is no guarantee of getting a child. They can try to adopt internationally, in which case it is pretty much guaranteed that the youngest you will get is a toddler. Then there are countries where adoption is not allowed or highly stigmatized generally, not just for queer couples but also single people. And then you have the issue that for adoption, the government of course has a right to examine your fitness to be a parent - which is good, but also has the potential of discrimination, for example if you belong to an ethnic or religious minority or if you have chronic illnesses or disabilities. There is no "just adopt" almost anywhere in the world. I say that as someone who wants to adopt: It's not a simple process. It will involve lots of preparation, since children who are up for adoption have generally experienced at least one trauma in their lives, potentially more than that if you adopt from foster care or an orphanage. Surrogacy is, in fact, the easier option. You can plan for it. If it is done ethically, the surrogate has given consent to go through the process, and then the main issue is getting a pregnancy established and going to term. If the laws where the surrogate lives allow for pre-birth parentage orders, the intended parents have more legal assurance that they can take the baby home. Not every place has those rules, so a surrogate elsewhere might be able to decide to keep the baby. That's not something intended parents necessarily want to experience. In adoption, you need to first find a child that you can adopt. This means that a child has to already be legally abandoned and declared adoptable, or a person who is currently pregnant or has recently given birth chooses you to adopt their baby (or social workers choose you depending on how the system works where you are; either way, the parent that birthed the child has to choose to place the child for adoption). And the person who birthed the child (or the other biological parent) has the right to take back the decision to let their child be adopted (this too depends on where the child is born, for example in Florida as soon as the placing parent signs consent to adoption, they can't take it back, whereas other states have a period of time where they can still revoke their consent). So the moment you can actually be assured that the child is legally yours is after the adoption has been granted by a court, and that takes a minimum of a few months. Both surrogacy and adoption come with certain ethical issues to contend with. They are not replacements for each other. Someone who wants to adopt won't necessarily want to have a child through surrogacy, and someone who wants to have a child through surrogacy doesn't necessarily want to adopt.
People are allowed to do what they want. Not everyone wants to adopt and your exception sound ridiculous and biased. So queer people are allowed to have kids via surrogacy but hetero couples aren't? What's stopping queer couples from adopting? 😒
There are thousands of children in desperate need of a foster family but actual adoption is extremely difficult because it's heavily regulated and both of the child's parents must be dead. It can be different in your country but I imagine not that much.
@@TheYasmineFlower nothing ethical about exploiting women and risking financially desperate womens health and lives for your own selfish desires 🤡 stop trying to convince people here with your twisted BS under so many comments. This is worse than prostitution because women can literally die from pregnancy or birth related complications or deal with permanent health issues because of pregnancy or birth.
We need the Artificial Womb Technology asap instead, so that women who wants biological kids of her own, but are afraid or are not willing to go through the extreme hardships, risks and pains of natural pregnancy and childbirth can opt for an artificial womb to gestate their fetuses without having to go pregnant themselves or depend on surrogate mother's to have biological kids. Because, pregnancy is afterall extremely hard, risky, painfull and damaging to a woman's health and wellness, be it on biological mothers or surrogate mothers. No women should have to go through that horror, to have a biological child, if they don't want to. Reproduction should be as easy for a woman, as it is for a man.
Thia brings its own problems. Child bearing is not just about the fetus being alive. There are so many intricate things happening in a womb that are importar, we cannot replicate it. Highly unethical
Even cars were considered "dystopian", when they first became a thing. IVF was called "dystopian" when they first became a thing. And many more such examples. Its called technophobia. Sure, there might be ethical issues that needs to be addressed with proper laws and regulations. Doesn't mean, we don't need this much needed technology that can save thousands of lives and make having kids easier.
Thanks for talking about this subject. I didn't know surrogacy existed until a couple years ago and when I found out, I was so shocked and thought how messed up and sick it is and wondered why nobody is talking about this twisted exploitation of women... why isn't it in the news?? I just can't imagine being so selfish that you would exploit a financial desperate woman and risk her health and life for your personal wish to have a newborn baby. So many kids need a home and are up for adoption, but they would rather spend money to exploit and potentially permanently harm women. These selfish, sick people don't care about children or anybody else, they shouldn't be able to buy kids just because they have money.
There are not that many children up for adoption, and the ones that are up for adoption are not babies (and often not even toddlers, but school age kids and teenagers, often kids who have experienced terrible things - those kids need people who are ready to parent THEM, not people who settle for them because they couldn't get a baby). Not every country allows adoption, some countries still have big stigma attached to adoption, and some people who would otherwise adopt can't access it because they may be single, have a chronic illness or disability, are part of an ethnic or religious minority, or other factors that have them be discriminated against. Not every surrogate is paid. In many countries, surrogacy is allowed but only altruistic surrogacy. So the surrogate is not compensated (or only supported in a few ways, like reimbursement for lost wages). There are quite a few women who do this out of a desire to help. Surrogacy can be exploitative, but is not automatically exploitation. I recommend the book Brown Bodies, White Babies by Laura Harrison on this subject.
@@TheYasmineFlower It is pure exploitation!! No matter if you pay financial desperate women because you can afford to do so or if you brainwash them into doing something "altruistic" for your own selfish desires. What if the woman dies during pregnancy or birth or has complications and then permanent health damages or issues for life? People who pay for this or people like you who defend this cruel BS don't give a sh*t about these women and potential negative consequences for these women. Selfish, sick people like that shouldn't be parents in the first place, yuck. And don't talk sh*t. The people who pay for surrogacy, don't even try for adoption because they want their DNA and a newborn baby, no matter if it might cost a womans health or even life. Sick. Zero justification to exploit women like that for your own desires.
@@ivy7417 because some people don’t look for understanding a complex issue or social phenomenon. They look for someone to hate / feel better about themselves and their “righteous” heart and soul. Thus, such harsh assumptions and characterization that leads to hate, stereotyping and stigmatization of people that sometimes don’t deserve it at all.
To me this just shows how much we treat babies and children like accessories or luxury goods. Wealthy people are so desperate to have them they will pay massive amounts and go to great lengths to get themselves a fresh baby. Then they hire other people to raise them. Meanwhile, poor women are being tricked, discouraged or downright thrown in jail if they get an abortion. There is an entire industry based on convincing poor women to have babies and SELL them to wealthy families. Paying womenlarge sums to have your baby is absolutely a business. You are preying on the poorer woman to need your money badly enough that she will spend 9 months carrying a baby that she will give up for you, then deal with all the recovery from birth. What cemented the insanity of this to me was seeing people arguing that brain dead women should be used to make babies for people who want them. Without any consent required from the woman when she was actually alive. People are so crazy to have babies that they will actually see a brain dead woman's body as just an incubator for their use. It's sick. It's like some kind of fucking horror movie.
Thank you so more talking about this - it's so worrisome but until recently I've only seen small feminist/academic channels discussing this. Jennifer Lahl with Venus Rising has lots of amazing podcasts about the surrogacy industry.
I love your topics so so much! Almost no one surfaces them, plus you do a phenomenal job being level headed and intelligent! I usually add snarky cheesy ornaments to my comments but won't do here, for a change :D
In the netherlands its illegal, idk how i feel about it, but it does feel creepy to rent someones womb. Its not just a bread your baking, how will a woman not feel a connection to the baby growing in het womb.
My aunt is a professor of anthropology (a colored woman, much like yourself), and she told me about all this awful stuff a long time ago. It's such a struggle to try and explain these things to my white girlfriend (who is very lefty and very liberal), but she listens to your videos a lot more than she does to me, so thanks for that!
@@KidologyCO interesting. that’s really archaic and demeaning here. thanks for letting me know, i want to visit Cape Town and Joburg…. definitely will never be calling Black folk “colored” though 🤣
@@KidologyCO Coloured and Black are not the same thing in South Africa. Coloureds are a multiracial ethnic group here in South Africa, however it's not the same as biracial. Being black on the other hand means your ethnicity is purely indiginously African. We don't have the 1 drop rule like in the U.S
Not on the subject of surrogacy, but could I ask (I really hope I'm not pissing anyone off here) whether it is really offensive, in this day and age, to call an American black (who is probably not 100% pure black) "coloured", because I was very badly criticised -yesterday- on a forum for daring to use that term to a celeb. As a originally Central European living in the UK myself, I would not have thought it offensive (or possibly racist). Thank you
I knew you had read ''Feminism against progress'' 2 minutes into the video, I'm reading it myself right now! And I really recommend it for anyone who has ever felt icky about the current trends in feminism and the modern view of motherhood. Its been a very enlightening and thought-provoking read. If you're not into reading she has been on podcasts like Triggernometry and Maiden Mother Matriarch.
It is a book I like to call "fishing the net" back in, read Right Wing Women. Mary is a Marabel Morgan - one who compromises surrogacy as it is in a relationship that is proctored but her brand of reaction is for women to basically compromise in every ideal until essentially everything they do is a reflective surrogacy. She calls herself a "reactionary feminist" because she is just that - one who wants to "salvage" the points of feminism for her own personal gain. I would just listen to a high brand narcissist if I wanted to align myself with her.
It was just a question of time when some feminists would turn regressive. It's just luddite nonsense, she's citing the Ancient Greeks and warning of some hubris... Such a religiously informed perspective, essentializing body functions as if they're some sort of sacred symbols... should tell you everything you need to know. Oh no, humans no longer tear raw flesh with their teeth. We're using these metallic tools to feed ourselves. And we no longer ride horses, instead we're moving on loud contraptions fueled by dinosaur corpses that we set on fire inside the contraption's engine. We're also staring at screens and communicating silently by using black magic called the internet. The sheer transhumanist horrors! Uhhh. Can we all just continue forward please enough with these paranoid, schizo hangups.
I think children and mothers used to be more public, prior to the industrial revolution. The job of parenting was just just the job of mother and father, but was shared between female relatives and friends. 6:03
13:32 All family plannig, regardless of how it takes place, is guided by the notion of potentially having a child at the best and optimal time for the parent, or when it is most convenient. That's literally what family planning is for the most part.
Kind of weird seeing these older women use gestational carrier generally speaking older women can carry their own children. It’s just that getting pregnant is harder because their eggs aren’t as good. but if you freeze your eggs, you should be able to carry the baby via IVF. there are women in their 50s and 60s doing this
@@productioninquiry8937 yes usually because of the eggs I mean it might be slightly higher even with IVF but generally speaking, it shouldn’t be a big problem. One of my close friends works as an OB/GYN. She literally has patients that are in their 50s having babies for the first time via IVF.
When the money is actually going to the surrogate, I don’t see where there’s an issue. Me. Have been “ordering kids” since the Dawn of time. It’s almost always on their schedule, to give them heirs, etc. now women are able to have more CHOICE in how they want yo have children. And surrogates are able to profit from it. Back in the day they would just have the husband sleep with a servant and then take the baby. She makes no profit and doesn’t have any agency over the act.
You aren't wrong, but you are viewing it through a simple 'oppressed' lens. This view is centered around money being the best thing we think people will strive for. Time is a resource for all of us, and the 9 months that the gestational carrier is spending on person A's child is time lost on cultivation of their own family. Compensation can't replace that.
I appreciate this converstion. I also agree with the notion that parenting is a privilege, not a right. My only issue with completely rejecting all surrogacy, gestational carriers, adoption, and fostering is: how are gay men couples ever going to access parenthood? If parenting is a privilege (not a right) it still seems unequal to me that it's a privilege reserved for straight people and sapphics.
I often get the feeling that "parenting is a privilege, not a right" is a talking point by people who don't have to consider struggling to become a parent. It's easy to say "this isn't a right" when they can easily fall pregnant through sex. But same-sex couples, couples with one (or two) trans partner, people with some chronic illness or disability (including infertility), are told "it's not a right to have a child, it's a privilege". I've come to the point where I actually disagree with that statement. Parenting is a right, to a certain point. It is not okay to prevent people from becoming parents if they want to be. Surrogacy definitely has ethical and moral issues. I personally think that governments need to prosecute intended parents who abandon their surrogacy-born children for child abandonment, for example. Sadly, lots of people who oppose surrogacy AND adoption and/or fostering are also against gamete donation generally, so they would also discriminate against lesbians/same-sex female couples/sapphics. Which is an intention of a significant part of the anti-surrogacy crowd: A return to only healthy heterosexual fertile married couples being given the "privilege" of parenthood - because they are seen as deserving of the privilege. If they call it a "right" instead, then they would have to agree that people have a right to it. But in many of those circles, only people who conform to certain societal norms have a right to become parents.
@@TheYasmineFlower we get it, the well being of people who can't make their own children is more important than the health and lives of surrogate mothers. You could just admit that you're a selfish fk instead of trying to manipulate people into feeling sorry for selfish people who put their own desires over the health and lives of other women. Nothing ethical about it.
@@TheYasmineFlower thank you so much for your reply :) I agree with every point you made. Prosecution for people who abandon surrogacy babies is one of many other actions that should be regulated. I think I agree now that parenting is a right of sorts, I'm just scared by the way parenting as a right functions within capitalism, creating surrogacy and adoption industries for profit rather than the betterment of the lives of the children at stake. After your comment though I can totally see how reserving parenting is a privilege can be discriminatory and can also lead to downright eugenics depending on interpretation. So thank you, now I can see parenting as a right AND still think there are lots of issues to be fixed about child welfare in systems of parenthood access.
@@liladuran8733 I share your concern about the function of parenting within capitalism. I think the only way to adress that is to abolish capitalism. Until that happens, every part of our lives will be touched by capitalist forces. Even things that should not be monetized have money attached to them: In many countries, adoption is not as expensive as it is in the US. But there is still money involved because people need to work and invest time and resources into it, such as social workers examining prospective parents, lawyers filing for an adoption, judges who grant an adoption, and so much more. Which is something that I find off-putting myself. But as long as we have capitalism, this will continue. :/ I do hope that we will see that system abolished and something put in its place that actually values human rights and the rights of children. Anyways, I am happy that my thought was helpful to you. :)
Why should gay couples be owed a "right" to parenthood? If a same sex couple feels so inclined to parent, then adopt or foster. Adopting or fostering is too difficult? Then suck it up buttercup. No one is owed a human being. And I think you misunderstand the word "privilege" in this scenario. It is a privilege to be in good enough health to be impregnated and carry a child to full term within a committed relationship with the biological father. It is a right on the child's behalf to be granted all of their needs as we understand them to be necessary for children. That being, breastfeeding from their biological mother who birthed them, bonding with their mother, bonding with their biological father, and being raised by both of them. Any deviation from this is a sure fire way to disadvantage a child's well being. Sometimes these deviations are unavoidable, but it is perverse to do it on purpose.
renting a womb is sinister! people want to have BABIES but they forget they are creating a PERSON. it's so much responsibility! most people don't deserve to be parents, just look at the news! if you don't have to carry a baby, do you have time to raise one? no! it's gonna be nannies and strangers UGH
imagine spending 9 months inside your mother, whether she is genetically your mother or not doesn’t matter, she’s your mother if she’s carrying you, she’s the one creating your physicality. imagine listening to her heartbeat everyday and night for 270 days, her voice, her laughter, imagine feeling every emotion she feels, tasting everything she eats, imagine having a mother, just to lose her and never see her again after birth. that’s trauma.
Even just on a gut reaction level, something about watching Khloe Kardashian drive to the hospital to watch the surrogate give birth, have the child not even touch the arms of the woman who just gave birth to them, and immediately have Kardashian sit in a hospital bed in another room in a hospital gown and then hold the child. That should not be something with a price on it.
There are orphanages in these countries where babies go to die because of lack of resources. I wish the rich would adopt from there. They would have the means to support a special-needs child. These orphanages need to be adopted empty, all the children deserve to be free and loved.
I can't imagine being "too busy" to be pregnant but somehow having the bandwidth to raise a child...
You can outsource childcare for a child once it's born. You can't outsource childcare for the fetus you're physically carrying.
Pregnancy looks quite unpleasant, I'd imagine that's the real reason.
@Joe Brookes Pregnancy derails your career. Childless women make more money, sometimes as much as men.
@@productioninquiry8937 Lucy Liu not going to drop off the earth if she's not in any significant films for a little bit, I'd imagine it's more down to pregnancy, I don't blame her, she's in her mid 50's
@CasterTrash I wasn't talking about Lucy Liu specifically. Google the data. Childless women earn more. Pregnancy often causes a financial setback in womens' careers, it's why women are paid less than men because employers anticipate maternity leave and child rearing.
The sad truth is that having children usually isn't about the children but about the parents' wish for self-fulfilment
Well, it's what life on earth is for all living creatures that self-multiply. It's all driven by the desire to survive, and you survive in a way if you carry on your genes. I get the desire for it, but I also get the desire for a lavish life, and sometimes you just can't have it. I can't fulfill my dream of becoming a billionair who has her every health need taken care of with lots of money and resource without resorting to some really unethical things. And some people cannot have a bio baby of their own without exploiting women. You either find a work-around that's more ethical, if less satisfying, or you just make your peace with it and move on.
I wasn’t adopted but I was “adopted” by my step mother. I put it in quotations because that’s essentially what it was. My dad and her dated from the time I was age 3, she was told she would never have kids and had many many miscarriages (before I came into the picture) she was the best mother ever to me, she treated me like her own daughter and I called her mommy. (My dad and her had full custody of me and I only would see my biological mother on the weekend so to me she was my mom and I believed that in my heart. Then when I was 5 a miracle happened and my baby sister was born. After that I was no longer wanted and casted aside not only by her but by her family also. The people that I once knew as my family no longer wanted me and purposely excluded me. She gave my dad an ultimatum and told him to give me to my mother full time or they would get a divorce. He tried marriage counseling, she just emotionally/physically abused me heavily to try and get me to leave too, she would punish me for no reason, not feed me, force me to watch my babysister be a child while I was not allowed anything fun. ALL SO I COULD LEAVE. Eventually it got so bad CPS was involved and they told my dad if he didn’t leave he would lose me. (My entire life I was devastated and I still am) the selfish part is I thought I was the only one affected but my little sister was heavily affected also recently she told me this “it was like everyday I would eat breakfast with my dad and sister and then one day they were gone and I went into your room and it was empty and I don’t understand and I repeat it everyday and it never ends) idk what my point was too writing this now I’m emotional all over again but like you said it was only about her and she never cared about me or my sister that was her baby. She just wanted me so she could say she was a mother not to actually be a mother.
I'm really sorry you had to go through that and that really sucks. Rven ppl who have kids out of their own body sometimes treat their own children like shit. Many humans are just not fit to be parents.
I'm sorry this happenedto both you and your sister. I work with a lot of families and i feel unequivocally that most people are not meant to be parents especially when things get difficult. A lot of people do not deserve to be parents and experience the love of a child. To them its not about the unconditional love its about material things such as image and claiming to be a parent but barely doing anything. Again I'm sorry this happened to you, i wish you both the best in life and love.
I’m sorry that you had to go through that 😢 awful ❤
These people kidology used as celebrity examples had a strong percentage of narcissism . Maybe bc they’re celebrities, but then when I read your story, this woman seems like she may apply too 😞
I just really hope you recover.. life can be so severe
From 3-5 you were a baby. She probably had resentment towards you and wasn't the best mom ever. Children are pure and see good in most people. She just didn't go out of her way to show up to the point a loyal child will see it. People don't change suddenly like that. That new baby just gave her the brave audacity to get you thrown out so she can play house with her new husband and new baby
A lot of surogate babies were abandoned in Ukraine. Some couples broke up, others changed their mind,and others didnt like the way the kid came out.
Super messed up
JESUS FUCKING CHRI-
. . . . .that kid is gonna be a victim of sex trafficking in Russia the MOMENT they turn 14. -_-. . . . .
There was a case in Thailand in which the Aussie parents asked the mother to abort a disabled child and she refused so there was a legal limbo for that baby.
@@Reticence9zen924 That would likely be a late-term abortion... A horrifying thought to be pressured into that, because the baby isn't what the customer wanted.
It's not a lot...Stop being so dramatic
I will either there is a commodification of children. I can have his children because it fits my esthetics. I can make money off of them that could be sponsors for LGBT model brands represent a group to make money from a girl it's weird. There's always been a commodification of children but with social media and this sense of it's OK to see kids in certain dynamics now is becoming. More Rampant
I think there's also a deeper issue here that transcends political lines.
Children, generally, aren't really thought of as full people. Their wants and needs arent considered by most parents. Rather, most parents have an idea in their minds of what their child wants and needs, and that certainly goes well, when the two align. But when it differs, most parents cant adjust.
This is why we see things like siblings being seperated. The parents don't want to deal with the conflict of having them together, or whatever other reasons, like convenience, they may have for keeping them seperate.
We really need to normalize listening to children, and being willing to put their needs first, when possible.
I’ve had similar thoughts when I hear some conservatives talk about home schooling. It makes sense to want to educate your child with similar values as yours, but some of them talk as if they are trying to indoctrinate their children, as if them thinking differently from the parents were a mistake that must be prevented at all costs. When I hear this stuff all that comes to my mind is “bro, your children are their own people, not an extension of yourself. Do guide them, but also let them experience the world and think for themselves”
When have they been full people and not tabula rasa for people to project their ideology on? Then what would be the benefit, biologically, for a male to stay with a child in a LONGTERM nuclear family if there is no proliferation other than his own genes? I forgot where in the symposium Diodica said this but the child is an edxtension of ego, hence it is beautiful bot because of it's own nature.
@@dorje9580 I mean, if you only care about yourself it makes sense, hell, even being a teacher/mentor could in a way make you a “parent” this way, but I think it’s wrong to forcibly make your child a copy of you. If they want to be like you that’s fine, and as a parent, especially when they’re young, you should impose certain limits/rules to ensure they grow up as well adjusted individuals, but anything beyond that just sounds like indoctrination to me. Also don’t underestimate genes, because personality and psychological traits are all inheritable
@@dorje9580 people who think like you, should never procreate, yikes. No empathy, just selfishness. Poor child.
This is my thought exactly regarding the issue of abortion. The crux of the issue in the mainstream discourse about it is that some people don't think the child in the womb is an actual child that deserves basic human rights. I don't know if it's always been this way, but it seems like most people who are candidates for being parents are so incredibly narcissistic. Whether it's what's going on with surrogacy and IVF where people feel they are owed a biological child regardless of the constraints of reality that maybe are there for the well being of any potential child in the first place, or what's going on with parent's trying to use their child as a political pawn via "trans kids" or bringing their very young children to testify at rallies.
This could literally turn into the handmaid’s tale where the rich and wealthy women use poor vulnerable women to give birth to their children in order to feed their own families. Sad how liberal western society mock traditional people , however they’ve created their own version of cult like behavior by worshipping their careers and “dreams”.
literally what I thought omfg
There is nothing liberal about these people. Kim Kardashian is a conservative and most celebrities are capitalist conservatives that parade around like liberals because it’s better for their careers
@@jordinometry1589 the hyper individualistic nature of liberalism as a philosophy is not just compatible with capitalism, it thrives on capitalism. Being open to others ideas is one definition of liberal but is not really the crucial definition
It already is the Handmaid's Tale. We have arrived.
I'm sorry but is everyone referring to the same Handmaids Tale? That was based on stripping women's rights to the point of dehumanization. If anything the "traditional family" mindset ideology was radicalized by the extremists religion portrayed in the book. Those women were not paid for their services, they were forced and undoubtedly oppressed. I understand that this is a serious topic, and I'm still learning about it but let's not mix apples and oranges. This is about Americas capatilist structure and though I can't say I fully agree with monetizing surrogacy, atleast these women are making that choice. I think it CAN be a very generous and selfless process for those who can not carry children for whatever reason or struggle with fertility.
For me the problem is rooted in the belief that the parents have a “right” to have a baby. In my opinion you don’t have a right to being a parent, it’s a gift, a responsibility you take on out of love. The child comes first, not you. If you cannot tailor your life around that (aka I didn’t want to stop working/ my husband and I couldn’t make our schedules coincide) then you’re not ready to be a parent.
Yessss
They are blinded by their wants they don't consider these children being born
This 👏👏👏👏
Only women can make babies for a reason. Only those who women see fit for reproduction will experience parenthood. It’s not a right. Laws need to be put in place to protect women from all over the world, who are going to be exploited for this. Forced to carry pregnancies for rich people.
@sadsheogre Ah yes, because women have immaculate judgment whenever it comes to deciding whom will parent the child. Casually ignores single motherhood rate.
Yes!
Is there something we haven't commercialized yet at this point ? Also, what happens if the child doesn't come as expected? What becomes of them? Are there any laws in place for situations like this? Those are actual human beings, not toys you can give back to a store and ask for a refund. This is so painfully dystopian, it's terrifying.
No, capitalism touches every part of human life. As long as we have capitalism, everything will be commercialized.
Laws around what happens when the child doesn't come out as expected differ by location. In Ukraine, there have been some reported cases of international intended parents who abandoned their surrogacy-born children (there's a whole documentary about one case), this often has to do with birth defects or heavy disabilities. There is sadly no legal mechanism to prosecute those parents for abandoning those kids in many countries. That is something that is sorely needed.
I mean, it's not as if you have to raise the child if you don't want to if it comes out "wrong". They could still give the child up for adoption, legally, to give it a chance at a family.
I've also seen a case of a surrogate (who posted on TikTok but I think isn't doing it anymore for legal reasons?) in the US where the intended parents never showed up to get the twins. So she is left raising them. That too needs a legal framework: If intended parents leave the children with the surrogate, they need to be forced to pay child support.
If it is well regulated, surrogacy is not all that dystopian. It's a pretty normal part of human life and has been all throughout history. It's simply that nowadays, we have the option of gestational surrogacy. But traditional surrogacy has been a thing for thousands of years, and in countries where surrogacy is illegal it is something people still do, just without telling the government.
The child usually becomes a news story in Europe and Australia for a week or two and then its forgotten about.
@@TheYasmineFlower ua-cam.com/video/AhLm6g-Lz5Q/v-deo.html
Yeah there needs to be heavy legal consequences if you decide to abandon your child, like having to pay child support and maybe a heavy fine
Its dystopia to have laws that control populations and breeding in the first place
My respect for Grimes was lost when she decided to rent another woman's womb, because she didn't like being pregnant and wanted to make more kids with Mr absent father to ~10 kids.
Not when she got with a neo-Nazi?
💯💯💯
I'm surprised you'd have any for her to begin with
Womb renting is an historical practice tho
@@Cateater123 and that makes it ethical how?
one of my best friends is the product of his 64 year old widowed mother hiring a surrogate and sperm donor to create him and his brother. Surely 23 years ago, there was no oversight over surrogacy adoption whatsoever. It’s truly heartbreaking because she’s now in her late eighties and has dementia, doesn’t remember who her sons are, and lives in a senior home when my friend just graduated college, which she couldn’t attend. It’s even worse because we found out a few years back that she hid (or forgot about) an audio file from his biological father, who we now know lives only 30 minutes away but is refusing contact. we did a dna test that has found over 2 dozen half siblings all over the country! Luckily, a family from our school took him under their wing when we were in high school, but what if they hadn’t? It’s a miracle he’s as well adjusted as he is. It’s a seriously messed up situation and the world needs more people advocating for the wellbeing of children/good birthing intent. It’s very personal, but I agree with you that it’s vitally important. I don’t believe “normal” families exist, but I know my friend deserved better.
Can you adopt at 64 I wonder?
Surrogacy agencies will sell a baby to whoever can pay for them. They don't care about the welfare of the child or the "parents" reason for wanting a baby
The adoption & foster systems aren't perfect. But at least they have some standards in place and won't just hand a baby to anyone (at least thats true for ethical ones)
Laws need to be enacted to prevent stories like your friend's. More planning should have been put forth before he was born.
@@EmyN she did in Ohio/Kentucky 23 years ago somehow
@@MsBrendalina it’s especially sad to me because the surrogacy mother and donor father have at least 3 children of her own (and had children before donating). I can’t fathom how they could’ve agreed to what they did.
I've seen a vile news story on YT of Georgian surrogates - a mother was forced to labour alone and someone slapped her uterus to get the baby out and she wasn't allowed to hold the baby to stop her bonding and the baby was left to cry until the parents arrive.
Saw this too! The doctor was so mean towards her and spoke to her like she had no right to the child, absolutely disgusting
That is incredibly messed up. That’s the ugly side the western media won’t show much of. The lack of natural bonding between mother and child. But they glamorize it as some great societal good that a woman can just conveniently schedule a surrogacy the same way she would a Pap smear. So disgusting
I saw that too and the newborn was in a corner by himself in a plastic incubator crying, and they said his parents were over in China and “too busy” to come to his birth and wouldn’t be able to come pick him up for SEVERAL MONTHS! The woman and the baby were both treated like objects, it was so sad.
Something about able bodied women choosing surrogacy over carrying a child is depressing and dystopian, tbh. Especially, when the reason is not wanting to stop working….fyi you’re going to have to stop/cut back to actually raise the kid. It’s so cringey to hear a woman say she’ll chose motherhood out of what is essentially boredom and not desire.
It’s it just seems disengaged from humanity. Also, just like prostitution, it will be ‘the poors’ who bear the physical and emotional brunt of this phenomenon. It’s giving Handmaidens Tale.
The vast majority of people who choose to use surrogacy to have a child do so out of some sort of medical necessity. In the case of actors and models, a medical necessity may be having to preserve their bodies because those are how they make money.
Handmaid's Tale was about a christofascist state that forced women to be raped, to be impregnated, to carry pregnancies and to give birth, and then forcefully separated them from those children. Not even commercial surrogacy works like that. Surrogates have to CONSENT to the process beforehand. There was no consent in The Handmaid's Tale.
@@TheYasmineFlower she didn't equate it one to one.
@@TheYasmineFlower not all surrogates consent. Just saying.. you seem very pressed about this. Have you gone through this process? Why do you defend it so much?
@@TheYasmineFlower lol preserving your body as a money maker is not a medical necessity, it’s not even a financial one. Get a gym membership or pastor surgeon. It’s vapid and anti-human to do surrogacy for non-medical reasons.
Also you’re nuts if you think all surrogates consent, or at the very least, aren’t pushed in that direction due to financial lack. There is a reason why it’s rich women/families doing surrogacy and relatively poor women who are offering their bodies for use in this way. There are rich, fertile able bodied women who do not offer themselves for these services, even for family and friends. Why is that?
@@Unkuuu The vast majority of financially constrained women of childbearing age are not surrogates. These women are consenting, not pushed.
I'm so glad you're talking about this. Selling women's bodies is horrifying.
This is such an important topic. I was thrilled when you mentioned Mary Harrington’s book! Incredible read. Surrogacy is renting a woman, she becomes almost a slave to her contract, and her baby that has grown inside her, listened to her voice and the sound of her heart, is ripped away from her (look up the Primal Wound). The amount of crossover with human trafficking is disturbing to say the least. Children are not products to be bought and sold
I do think it will become more " normal" & acceptable for most ppl to have a surrogate. Just a couple of years ago only celebrities could get plastic surgery now especially in the US many regular ppl are getting cosmetic surgery.
I know 2 women who are doing surrogacy. One is a 32 year old women with 4 kids who loves being pregnant & now carries the babies of cancer survivors. The other is a 20 something year old woman with one son carrying a wealthy business women's child because she needs money to complete her studies& be able to raise her son.
Surrogacy agencies are of the devil. There is alot of abuse of young girls going on & the prospective parents will never even know. If babies are born " ugly" or disabled or deemed unsuitable for the couple the kid may be dumped or even killed. They often work with government agencies so these kids births are concealed & no one really know what happens to them after they are born.
poor women suffer the most from this.
Its clearly shady and illuminati based. lots of room for abuse and crime. high ranking criminals already use “breeders,” basically slaves used just to bear children to be sacrificed to satan.
It is still wrong!
True I’d like more children so my son can have siblings but I don’t want to deal with the woman I’ve been open to looking for a surrogate for the last 12 yrs
@@lightoffaithchristian4382 no the newborns suffer the most.
My partner and I decided to not have kids at age 42. We really wanted to. We were both each others second marriage and we both really want kids. By the time we met and knew it was right, medically, it turned out pregnancy was not looking to be in my cards even with medical intervention. Which left us with surrogacy or adoption. Both things require a ton of money just to get in the door. It's pretty effed if you ask me because I think we'd be good parents. Just not wealthy parents. I know we made the right choice for us not to push it. I had a hysterectomy to fix my issues and its made me feel physically so much better. It's something I'll always wonder about though. I hope in the future we'll be able to adopt an older child.
It’s appalling how inaccessible adoption is.
@@stef4746 it's a double edged sword. Children need to be protected but at the same time they should be out in good family that can take care of them and that really what them . Accepting the first come could be dangerous
@@LilSyl05 100%, but there has to be ways in which we can make adoption less expensive. It’s in society’s best interest to allow children to be raised in good families.
@@stef4746 I'd like to hear your suggestions. I remember watching dr Phil the other talk with foster kids and their life was really sad. They were neglected as fuck. Imagine a person not wanting the child he fostered or adopted 😥
Do you not know women lose their chances of fertility as they age?
HAS NO ONE READ “THE GIVER” ?!?!?!This needs to become 100% illegal. No one is entitled to children. I am barren and I’ve made my peace with that. Now we have a class of workers and surrogate’s. It’s not just people dealing with infertility (not that that makes it better, but at least there are stakes) now people just can’t be bothered, kids are just accessories. This is so disgusting.
There should be less stigma around people not wanting children and also less stigma around not wanting biological children but wanting adoptive ones..
Or fostering..
Also, i didn't read the novel but I did watched 'the giver' and Brenton Thwaites is a great actor
@@Iamhere829yes this is the root cause imo. If we didnt create a whole culture of “unwanted children”, some ppl wouldnt have turned out socialised into feeling “more connected” to a biological stranger over an infant/child from the system.
Idk how exactly we could solve an age old way but maybe positive representations of adopted children in stories and movies could move the needle rather than always sharing the struggle side that other ppl might not want to sign up for.
Mary Harrington recently tweeted: "Surrogacy bakes mother-loss into a baby’s earliest experience - and inflicts this loss on a profoundly vulnerable infant, in the name of adult desire." And I think that really is correct. I think surrogacy is cruel unless it's done by someone close to the parents, who is going to stay a close figure in the child's life. To say that the woman who grew that baby in her body for 9 months and gave birth to them isn't their mother is just despicable.
Mary Harrington is a TERF and allies herself with fascists like Tucker Carlson, Posie Parker, JK Rowling... I wouldn't take anything she tweets seriously.
I don't know anyone who was adopted, but I would I would imagine that losing their mothers early on does damage children who are adopted. I can't see how it wouldn't. However, I'm not morally against adoption because it isn't exploitation (hopefully). Generally mothers who adopt out their babies are unable to properly care for them, whereas commercial surrogates are being exploited for their wombs.
🙄
@@vanillabeanladyHow so exactly?
@Macy I recommend the series..Long lost Families for many examples of separation via adoption. For many it is a life time of a gapping hole of loss in their heart
This sounds eerily similar to the "babies for sale" during the great depression.
I didn't know that was common then. Selling unwanted babies while pregnant is common in Korea.
it seems child sacrifice has been a more recurring motif in human existence than we'd like to admit..
@@Reticence9zen924 I think if the “seller” does due diligence in going through the legal processes to make sure the adopting family is safe, it doesn’t have to be such an evil thing.
@@gummy5862 I think the point that kidololy is making is that there is no no such thing as due diligence and legal process in thind wold countries and that this whole thing is exploitative and its coming from the elitist class that claim to care so deeply about the welfare of third world countries
@@gummy5862 how is that ever possible..no one knows what happens behind doors and people can change when they have to look after a child
I'm childfree and I remember reading this comment on a childfree video: "children deserve better". This speaks to world in which children are born; the emotional, psychological and economic state of BOTH parents; communities of care and collective ethics. In essence, children deserve better and we as a species are mostly ill equipped to provide this. I know I sure as hell don't have the wherewithal to parent, hence childfree.
I would argue that motherhood wasn't a private venture in a lot of traditional cultures. It was always everyone's business. Especially when we lived in smaller communities. But now we live in that large urban community and have internet, so that's where it gets weird
Agreed. Celebs are leveraging their pregnancies for attention now. But mega stars have to disclose or go into hiding because the paparazzi will hunt them down.
Yep, motherhood was very tied to the family's economics and inheritance.
If you think about it… 9 months of pregnancy plus dealing with post partum recovery is easily a year out of work. So the amount these celebrities are paying for surrogates is pennies. I make more with my job and am not destroying my perfect body. I would ask for at least a million dollars to surrogate.
And you'd never get it because someone would do it for less. LOL!
@@productioninquiry8937 exactly. Because surrogacy is based on the exploitation of marginalized women.
@@theblacklapinou Not always. If that was the case more non-white women would be gestational carriers. I would love to see studies on the income and education level of most gestational carriers.
@@productioninquiry8937 sadly, the only studies on the topic I could find are based on “native” surrogate mothers located in the UK, USA, and Canada.
A big majority of them are middle class christians. However, out of the 25’000 born to surrogate mothers in the united states (2008), only 1000 of them took place in the united states. The one article I read was based on interviews of a hundred of these one thousand woman, so 1/10th of 1/25th of a very specific sample.
The surrogate industry is valued at 450 million dollars in india.
(Sources: “Revisiting The Handmaid’s Tale: Feminist Theory Meets Empirical Research on Surrogate Mothers”
-Karen Busby, -Delaney Vun (2010))
So, to me the problem is, those 24’000 international surrogate, how do we assume they are protected? Can an Indian woman sue the “parents” in the US if they change their mind during the surrogate pregnancy and can she force them to pay her? What if she miscarry, is she still compensated? How do we supervise the buying and selling of children and the renting of women’s bodies internationally? How are these women protected and supported?
@@theblacklapinou I only know about the US. I know less about international surrogacy.
This has caused many to cry for International Child Laws and strict regulations on Commercial Surrogacy. I totally missed the Baby Manji controversy back in 2008, but these really are untested waters, and people really shouldn't be playing with human lives like this.
I'm not sure what this has to do with liberalism or feminism. Since the beginning of time, people with the most money/power/resources have seen the bodies of the poor as their property, to use and abuse at their will for their profit or pleasure.
Tru dat!
In an episode of Dubai Bling (yes, I love trash), some rich ladies spoke about the alienation of their husbands' expectation that they keep getting pregnant -- and having a surrogate to fill that role was a proposed solution. And I thought: not for the surrogate!
... where can I watch this trash? I desperately need it in my life.
What happened was one of the wives wanted to get a surrogate she’s originally from Britain but another woman said that’s looked down upon in the Middle East
@@FuzzyKittenBoots That trash is on Netflix!
I am glad you spoke honestly about Kim's health issues while pregnant. Kim has said she would have stopped having kids after two, but Kanye wanted a larger family.
I remember just about oxytocin and it's bonding qualities for people being a part of the process of giving birth as a ton of it is released during the process and it helps with forming that connection between the mother and child. Now I wonder what surrogacy means for this and how it impacts child abandonment in this whole thing.
It would have less impact than adoption in many cases.
People bond with adopted children or children born via Cesarean section just fine, so that won't be a problem.
Also, women who go through natural birth can suffer from depression after it. It's a traumatic experience.
@@7773CLA I'm not downplaying it? Having large doeses of oxytocin is not a guarantee for bonding. It helps, but it's not the sole reason.
@@moononthewindynight27 so women who go through natural birth can have depression.. so a cash strapped young woman carries an births a child for a pitiful amount of money and can end up life threateningly depressed... seems like a poor deal to me
@@helendancelot they consented to it, and there are women who deal with pregnancy different. She's probably tough if she decided to be a "carrier".
After our twins girls, we considered surrogacy. My pregnancy was very hard with a lot of bleeding/bed rest/medicines. But we decided not to go through. It feels transactional, like going shopping. Surrogacy is only for convenience.
Convenience for someone who already has children, sure. If you're childless with multiple miscarriages that's different.
No to the baby its the same.
@@productioninquiry8937even in the case of being a woman being unable to carry a baby to term on her own, surrogacy is a choice made out of convenience. It’s too inconvenient to deal with the disappointment and trauma of those experiences or to pursue parenthood with children who are not genetically related, so instead they outsource child bearing. I can sympathize with what led to their decision but it’s still one made out of convenience and concern only for one’s own desires.
It reminds me a bit of Mad Max: Fury Road, where some women are considered "breeders"
Women are already called by extreme leftists with the whole "gender" thing
The left likes to call them Birthing people
@@morgannyan2738birthing people is different from breeders tho?
Birthing people includes women and intersex/other gender people who are giving birth?
It's like getting offended at being called money earning people? Or care taking people?
I don't understand why adoption is such a repulsive concept for these celebrities. 🙄😐
To me it is like a double edged sword. There are pro's and con's. The biggest con to me is the commercial aspect of this.
As a gay man, who always also wanted to be a father I have been through the thought processes... in the end, because it is not just a happy accident - I thought it would be selfish. Looking at the state of the world, etc. Do I want to put another human being through all this crap, make them a wage-slave most likely, and so forth. Also keeping in mind LGBTI+ are like a natural equalizer in overpopulations, why go against that nature?
Adoption was also an option, there are already plenty of children that need a loving, caring home. But it isn't all that easy.
The only real pro: you get to have a baby. But do more babies really wanna be in this god fordaken worls? No. They dont. They keep coming bc we keep pumping them out. For ourselves. Having a baby is almost always for the birther, never for the child. It actually is that simple if u detach your emotional desire to have a baby.
@@Pomagranite167 The babies don't want to be in the world? All of us are in the world, and every day that we choose to continue living is a day that we choose to be in the world. You're choosing to be in the world today because you're choosing to live.
@@Pomagranite167 As an ex-baby I love that I’m here thank you very much. Your nihilistic views are boring and show you are not very well read.
I tend to agree
@@razmiddle9410 you sound like a typical pro-life American Catholic
Loved it. Hits on so many issues. Class, childcare, human objectification...etc
Some celebrity paying someone an insane amount of money to birth their kid is a lot less concerning than the horrifying concept of baby factory in poorer countries, prostitution sounds like a much better life.
I can see how this trend will quickly turn into a slippery slope into something sinister and dangerous. If something proves to be profitable, there will be those who want a piece of it. Basically what I'm saying is this surrogacy thing can easily turn into another sort of human trafficking if not strictly regulated.
“Easily” 😂
17.00 this is so bang on! Can you imagine being Lucy lus child and reading that interview …. The child is never considered
I would love to agree with Kidology's POV. But based on all the unplanned kids I know who are now adults, and their lackluster upbringing, the natural way isn't producing better people in many instances. 50% of US pregnancies are unplanned. They're less prepared than Lucy Lui and the children are not being considered either. WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?!?!
This is a very good point
@@mulesalumina7220 Thanks. I enjoyed screaming, "WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN !?!?!?!" in my head. LOL!
What does that have to do with the argument? You're saying "The average American doesn't use protections and is a bad parent for unplanned parenthood", so tell me where that applies to "I want children, but having a big belly bothers me, so I'll just buy someone's body for it and if the baby isn't good I'll throw it away"
@dontmindmefangirling3123 Most people who use surrogates do it because they cannot physically carry children due to health risk, age, or fertility troubles. Kidology posited that people who employ surrogates as a luxury would or could in some way rear worse children, unhappy children, or traumatized children, as opposed to women who have carried their own children. There is no data to support this. Many naturally birthed children are unplanned, many planned children grow up in households plagued with abuse and divorce, many unplanned children grow up lacking basic necessities. In reality, a child born to a family that can afford a surrogate for luxury would be the child with access to the most resources. Greater resources yield better outcomes for children overall. Based on Kidology's assumptions, adopting should immediately be a source of trauma. I like Kidology, but she's projecting hard.
I personally don't have a problem with it, some people like baby-making but they don't like baby raising. Some people want a kid, but can't make it themselves. They work together in a way that happens to benefit both parties. As for the kids born of it, assuming that you're not anti-natalist, existence is better than non-existence. As for the possibility of exploitation of the surrogates, we definitely need to have strong laws and regulations that make it clear that they have rights. That said, imagine if we did this with farming, don't do farming because some people who farm are actually forced into it. No, continue farming, but punish harshly slavers. Just because it's an unusual way of using one's body doesn't mean that the woman in question shouldn't have the right to decide. As for the renting of a human, I would like to point out that we rent people all the time. When I hire somebody to do my grandmother's lawn, I hire a guy for their muscles and biceps to push the lawn mower back and forth. I don't see why surrogates should be unfairly stigmatized.
Yeah but labor work is not comparable to childbirth by a long shot... your lawn man won't feel the effects of his work for years after
The modern form of surrogacy means the kid is biologically the kid of both parents. It is the mother's egg and the father's sperm but for whatever reason the mother can't carry a kid to term. Having a uterus that isn't up to snuff can happen to anyone, and I actually think it is very cool there are women out there who are willing to help a couple have a kid. A kid who is biologically THEIRS, not hers.
It is not hers, but that baby will have some of her DNA
@@charmaineespeut4627 That's a myth. Not true at all.
You think that but what are the FACTS...
@@helendancelot What I've stated is medical fact. Look it up.
Glad you've chosen to dive into the surrogacy issue.
However, I think its unfair to point towards second wave feminism as being part of the initiative towards surrogacy because of "the personal is political" aspect of feminist theory.
1) " The personal is political " was never about taking private life into public life for consumption. It was about the oppression that occurred behind closed doors for women, such as rape and abuse in the family, had actually larger sociopolitical hand that promotes, encourages and normalizes it and creates it. Which, from what I can tell, is true. Capitalism is a structured hierarchy. That hierarchical structure is class, sex and race, hence why certain oppressions exist and have existed since it's inception. They're inherent in the social structure of capitalism and is necessary for its existence. Ergo, women's oppression in the private home is due to the political necessity to control the reproduction that reproduces the society. Women's oppression is based on exploiting what's seen as "human resources" ie the working class, slave class, indigenous occupiers ect.
2) And because of this understanding that the personal is political, second wave feminists have always been staunchly against surrogacy and in particular the market of surrogacy as an industry.
Sooooooo where is the link that you've made that implicates "the personal is political" and second wave feminism ie radical feminism to the free market surrogacy industry? (Side eyeing 3rd wave/Liberal feminism of being part of the problem, I cannot disagree with you there. They are and in a lot more ways and within a lot more avenues than just surrogacy, too, no qualms there)
In fact, if this topic is of interest to you there's some great books out there that really delves into the issues of surrogacy written by radical feminists. Such as Living Laboratories by Robyn Rowland.
Jennifer Bilek is an independent journalist who does a deep dive into transhumanism and the free market industry that's trying to open up even more of the reproductive market and emerge that with the tech industry, in her blog " the 11th hour blog", which can easily be found with a quick Google search.
I was going to write the same!
Kid has so many great points in this video but the reference to "the personal is political" was a complete misunderstanding of the motto.
Honestly, I don't understand the problem. No one is forcing these women to be surrogates. If that's their way to earn money or help someone, why can't people mind their business?
If I had money like all these celebrities, I would also pay a willing woman to be a gestational carrier because I suffer from tokophobia and will likely never have a child because of that. As long as the surrogate is treated and paid fairly, I don't see an issue. People give their kidneys, bone marrow, etc., to others; so, if someone wants to carry someone else' child for nine months, why not?
I agree. The problem to me would only be if somebody's forced. But if everybody's willing. What's the issue?
Agreed, it feels like the people who speak out so strongly about these issues have never suffered with fertility issues and don't understand the desire that many women with these issues have for a biological child. If someone is willing to help them, and is compensated fairly, I see no issue.
Perhaps you should just not have children. A fear of pregnancy is logical because it can result in death or health problems..eg teeth falling out.. prolapses...all kinds of health problems that can affect the rest of your life. But pay a poor woman to take all these long term risks.. because she is poor and of less importance than the person with money..
@@the_boss3421 how can compensation be fair for such a task? And people are always trying to get cheaper while dictating to the woman like a slave. Also what happens when the payers for some reason reject the child..which happens
@@the_boss3421 you see no issues as you have done NO RESEARCH
Great video. Although, you also didn't even tough the horrific medical complications that come from egg harvesting and surrogacy. Its even worse!
At least one woman has died.. probably more covered up
If you can’t/ don’t want to get pregnant … adopt. Surrogacy or “gestational carrying” is so unethical.
If you genuinely believe this, you either have your own kids which were conceived with ease, or you have no desire to have them.
You forget here that it is really not easy to adopt. It is already a very long and difficult process for a couple, but impossible if you are single.
@@TH2714 And I hate the way these idiots frame adoption as some 'second choice' to having bio kids. Adoption isn't for everyone.
I'm sorry to tell you, but closed adoption can be very traumatic for the child, especially in transracial circumstances
@@farmhouseonthemountain I'm glad you both have a daughter - you went through an experience many go through (miscarriages) before achieving that goal. And instead of your losses and the birth of your daughter giving you empathy, it's made you bitter. You don't want anyone else who struggles (and isn't lucky enough to finally be successful) to be able to have children of their own. You probably need therapy. Try some introspection and examine your twisted motivations and your own soul, and you'll realise you're both wrong.
I'm kinda annoyed that apparently everything is now feminisms fault... How is commercial surrogacy a consequence of feminism? I genuinely didn't understand the argument that was supposedly made in this video?
Exactly ! Without feminism, domestic violence and abuse would not be punished, no right to vote, no jobs, etc. I grew up in a patriarchal religious society and it was hellish...
This is one of your best investigations Z, and so much more to unpack in terms of power and wealth dynamics and the ethical implications for all involved.
This was very hard to watch. I see where Kid is coming from, but I think her viewpoint may be oversimplified by a few disgusting examples. Celebrities are a very tinny-tiny percentage of the global population and most people using gestational carriers are not doing it for the sake of vanity. Less than 10% of the world’s population earns $100k a year, which is the average cost of surrogacy. I’m quite older than the audience, and I may be biased because we have been trying for 7 yrs, and the journey is harrowing. I think there needs to be more regulation around this…part of the problem is that governments refuse to touch it…there are simply no laws around surrogacy in most countries…it’s neither legal nor illegal..just diy
You’re right about one thing though. The children are never considered. Not even in a biological setting if you really think about it
Having a child is always inherently selfish and vain. Very few ppl have a child thinking "i want my child to have a good life". They think "my child will give me a good life" if yiu did what was best for a chuld you'd never bring one into the world bc humanity is going to hell in a handbasket
@@Pomagranite167 Yes, that’s why parents take the massive risk of pregnancy, complications, lack of sleep, etc. and are ready to work 3 jobs and if everything else fails die for their kids as long as they can be safe and well. Sounds super selfish 😂
@@laraveinberg5648 however you put it, it's still selfish. Lol. We were not born for our own benefit, but for our parent's...but that's something I have accepted. As tough as life has been, I'm grateful for the family I came through and for the relationship I have with my mother and sister❤️...and I cannot wait to have that relationship with my future daughter.
I think people with such hardline views againt procreation are just not realistic about the complexities of life🤷🏽♀️
@@Jen-Inspired I agree. If that is what we call selfish, then yes, it is. It’s selfish to stay alive, kill an animal so you can be fed, kill a plant for tools and to continue existing. It’s in the nature of things and clashes hard with the human condition (especially in modern times). But whether something selfish is inherently vain, wrong or harmful, I’d argue with OP about that! Hope you have the family you’re dreaming of 😊
I cant quite put my finger on why, but essentially buying someone to use them (their body) is uncomfortable to me. But then again, I dont agree with paying for use of another person's body flat out. We like to think of ourselves in brains in vat, essentially so far apart from our physical bodies that we hardly have a connection to it - but in my opinion, our entire nevous system proves how much of an illusion this is. I do not agree with buying a person for sex acts, nor do I think there should be markets for body parts and organs or human slavery. It is very strange that people can essentially pay for an experience, that I feel for so many other life circumstances, people are told to accept it is not something they can ever have. It's part of the cards you are dealt. But with pregnancy, birthing and motherhood you can now purchase that experience?
Seeing humans as a commodity for purchase like any other object on the supermarket shelf.
Thanks for the food for thought
Exactly, just because we have the "comodity" to do something it doesn't mean we should. Society as a whole os becoming this empty mush of nastiness. Everyone is very selfish, they just want their needs met no matter the consequences
Currently reading Feminism Against Progress right now and thrilled to hear you mention it in this video
10000% agree with you. People get pissy when you get between them and the kids they can pay to have.
Some people are required to pay to have kids (be that paying for a sperm donation in case of a single woman or a lesbian couple, for example, or accessing fertility treatments) because that is the way the system is structured. Lots of people try to make it only an issue of paying for it, when their actual goal is preventing people who do not conform to their ideals of how you should live to realize their dreams. For example, homophobic people who couch their homophobic objections to queer people having babies in "ethical concerns about gamete donation and surrogacy".
@@TheYasmineFlower Lol, they're not required, they're just narcissists. If you and your partner can't naturally have a child together, just stop there and get a grip of your ego.
@@TheYasmineFlower are you really comparing sperm donation that has zero physical risks for a man, to risky pregnancy and childbirth that can literally lead to death or lifelong health consequences for surrogate mothers if complications occur? What the F is wrong with you mentally? I really hope karma exists. Stop pretending to be a good human who cares about others well being when you support people taking advantage of womens bodies, health and even lives, just because they're in a better financial situation than the desperate people they exploit.
@@TheYasmineFlower The concern over women’s rights is homophobic?
I peronally feel like if you have to pay to have a kid.....you probably should just accept the kid thing is just not in the cards for you. Not everyone gets to have what they want. Sorry.
It’s so dystopian to trade your youth for money, to have enough money to afford children once is riskier to have them, to then rent the womb of young people that need money that may not have enough money to have their own kids afterwards
This was an interesting listen as my friend just used a surrogate (she can’t carry a child) and after I had my child I was approached about being a surrogate myself by a company (no thank you, my pregnancy was hard).
We are both in the USA but as she talked about the process and how it was presented to me, it didn’t sound more exploitative than other jobs that damage your body overtime (manual labor jobs or professional sports), but with potentially better protections as step one was a lot of lawyering about a contract where both sides have representation.
I can see it being really exploitative when it goes international and the surrogates just live in the place with the least regulation.
Thank you for your opinion and giving me a lot to think about.
Seems a woefully inadequately paid job to me.. you said your own was hard.. how much money would have been sufficient to compensate..then to hand the baby over and perhaps never even have word again?
@@helendancelot I think it depends on the person. I know some people who had easy pregnancies and loved being pregnant. You just don't know beforehand.
I can also see a person being okay with handing over a baby, especially if they went into the process knowing it wasn't going to be raised by them. Bonding with your baby isn't automatic or instant, it's different per person and can take months (people really gloss over this when talking about pregnancy and babies). At least you know the child is going to a couple who wants a child enough to go through this (IVF isn't exactly easy on you either).
I really don't see anything morally or inherently wrong with being a surrogate if you go in with proper protections and rights. There is a wide range of experiences when it comes to being pregnant and birthing a baby.
Bad jobs have had way more negative long term effects on my health and body than my pregnancy, and I wasn't being paid fairly there either.
Ok but a baby bond with the carrier even before birth. How many newborns do you think would want to be seperated? Is that trauma worth less just because they cant talk did not agree and dont get payed?
@@iknowyouwanttofly Not an expert on this, but I don't think that giving birth to baby = good and strong attachment bond with baby. There may be some truth to them recognizing your voice, but I think it is more important for a baby to be loved and cared for after birth to form a strong bond. My baby is very attached to my husband and my mom, and I think it is because they have been a reliable source of cuddles and comfort.
@@iknowyouwanttofly I am also irked by the idea of giving birth being the most important factor in bonding with your baby, as far as their well being and your relationship goes. Birth is so short compared to the rest of your relationship with your child as a parent, and dads are important. There is no way to automatically create a loving bond with your baby or child that is gender specific. You need to love and care for them every day to build this. In my opinion, the most important thing for a child is to have a parent who is willing and able to love and care for them, whether they gave birth to them or not. (And even if you are the birthing mother keeping your child, something like a NICU stay or other medical issues means you have to be seperated anyway, but people still bond with their children after that.)
thanks for talking about this! i might be a hopeless delulu young woman but I feel tides are turning and people are finally opening their eyes.
Videos like this are necessary !!!!!
Why even restrict surrogacy to wanna-be parents? It might be economical for corporations to just grow and train their own employees. Once you have removed the rights of the mother (who has grown the child in her own body regardless of the genetic make-up) to keep her child you are legalising human trafficking.
You must not know what companies are paying nowadays. LOL!
I'm lucky that i feel fine while pregnant. But being tired all the time sucks. Also, not worrying about dying in childbirth would be cool.
The difference between this and birth control? Technological society is what it is. You accept the good (the internet, liberated sexuality thanks to birth control) with the bad (ethical dilemmas surrounding surrogates as an example).
Brave new world.
Right! Because I don’t understand these comments and this video…
The difference is that one involves the exploitation of working class women who are treated appallingly by these commercial surrogacy companies while the other literally affects no one apart from the person taking the birth control.
You’d have to be brain dead to think that these actions are remotely similar in their ethical implications.
What? What does surrogacy have to do with birth control?
I stop everything I'm doing when I see you post a video! I'm glad you covered this topic I'm interested to see your thoughts/viewpoint on this issue.
i worry that the growth of this industry will actually result in many people adopting antinatalist beliefs, this seems like it'll add fuel to an already flawed belief that is already gaining steam.
Excellent video
antinatalist beliefs? people who don’t want to have children are not going to have children. and they are well within their right to do so.
Antinatalism is so stupid... But why do I feel like Kid would defend it?
@@EyeOfTheTiger777 i strongly doubt she would. Antinatalism is an extreme belief
Interested why you're against antinatalism? We know that suffering and death are guarantees in life while joy and happiness are not. If we do not consider any philosophical belief that the soul goes on and we're here for a purpose, and assume that the physical is all there is, then beings are forced into this world not through their consent of wanting to exist, but because parents want them for selfish/ biologically programmed reasons. People are created to suffer and die for someone else's pleasure. That is the short of it. I don't see how it isn't logically better to not exist if we're operating on the logic that less suffering is a moral good. I would be interested to hear your perspective.
@@FullMetalFeline No, humans, together with all animals, are created via their parents so life can continue. This is the meaning of life. To go on and be. Our genes want to persist existing, we are the way in which the universe experiences itself. We are at the mercy of our genes. Your views about life and death are incredibly selfish. Ask the bird if it wants to live, ask the fish, damn, ask your own cells. Of course, we can’t, because we are the only ones burdened with self-awareness. Those creatures and simple cells have less freedom and options, but they still play their part in the circle of life. We don’t know why and how exactly life happened to start on our little planet, I don’t think it’s wise to decide it should end. Especially considering the miracle that is the human species.
In India there were a few incidents of foreigners coming for surrogacies and abandoning the child when the baby had health issues or down syndrome. After that the government banned commercial surrogacy. Esp for foreigners to come here and do this. I think every country especially in the global south needs to ban surrogacy. Going to third world countries to exploit those women further is despicable
10:36 "the personal is political" was originally conceived as a rallying cry against the ways society and state failed to address misogynistic abuse. DV, SA, CSA, were often legally viewed as "personal" matters that ought to be resolved in the home or office. This is substantially differt from the current discourse about things like dating preferences.
"The Personal is political" was a feminist Propaganda to project Men as an enemy.
And it resulted is huge false cases and Extortion of Money from Men.
I think it's great that people choose to have kids when they feel more able and set in life, but the flip side is treating kids not as people, but a cold, hard investment, and that part is gross to the marrow.
Nowadays children are treated better than at any over period of time before. They've always been an investment.
@@tserln1149 Investing in people because you care is very different to investing in kids for your own benefit and not theirs, and many do not do the former.
One of your best videos ever (I have watched all of them!)
🥹 Thank you; that means a great deal to me.
14:31 Most mothers would say the real brunt of motherhood is raising and caring for a human for 18+ years, not pregnancy and postpartum for those who end up with depression.
Sperm donation should also be banned i have seen so many men do it for money. My friends whole life ruined when her husband decide to donate it to sister in law. And later he got feelings towards that child and now he is bringing that child into her and their childrens life all of a sudden. Ps sister in law and brother in law got divorced,niether of them wanted to take the child so his uncle / biological father take him home. But this ruined my friends whole life and biggest injustice happened with their children as now they have to share their father and everything with someone else. They lost all of their rights. Please sperm donation should be banned. Their happy family ruined because of this.
The end of the video about politics was really powerfull, it's a great summary of what I think.
Im deeply terrified of the direction western societies are going. I’m terrified of surrogacy being legal in my country (it’s not). I’m terrified of this future of liberalism and transhumanism. I care for human beings first. I hate the bourgeoise.
Omg I was not expecting that... I knew puppy mills existed. Those are sad and terrible conditions the animals experience hidden away.. amd now there are baby baking basements? ( sorry for alliteration couldn't help myself) ugh 😑 consumerism is really getting gout of hand
Je t'aime kid❤❤
To put it in context, it isn't only surrogates in Ukraine that have to give birth in bomb shelters. And the reason they give birth there isn't pure malice or something, but simply the invasion that Russia is waging on Ukraine. As unethical as some of the Ukrainian surrogacy agencies are (and there are quite a few things to say about them), they would likely prefer the surrogates to give birth in a hospital where the intended parents can pick the child up without trudging through a war zone.
These surrogates are not hidden away and forced to breed. Those conditions occur in the world but are called "baby farms" and do not involve a surrogacy process, but kidnapping, rape, forced birth and illegal adoptions.
It is gut wrenching
Kidology ur voice is so soothing thank u for ur work!
i find myself conflicted about some of your points in this one. of course there are horror stories about the mistreatment of surrogates in ukraine, georgia, etc. and i can see how it can be morally disturbing to some to hear about women pay other women to bear their children for them.
but i don't blame women like kim kardashian for seeking out alternatives if their bodies have complications that could put them or their child at risk. and with gestational surrogacy, at least regarding a male and female couple, the child may not have the identity crises that an adopted child, commercial surrogacy, or donor IVF child may have; they could still be rest assured that they are their parents' child genetically, and that there were just complications physically/emotionally/financially that required the child to be carried by someone else (perhaps a naïve take since i don't have personal experience with any of the above. it just seems like a child would be able to swallow that reality vs the reality of the other pregnancy alternatives listed). in the western world, if a woman has the choice and desire to become a surrogate (there are stories of surrogates who do it because they love the idea of helping infertile couples grow a family) then i think she should have the freedom to do so.
also regarding paris and carter, i'm not sure what their opting for surrogacy has to do with the problem that he's physically and emotionally abandoning his daughter. it's a horrible irresponsible thing, but from what you've explained it seems like their whole situation would've been the same even if paris had a natural birth. seems like he was set on abandoning his daughter from the beginning, long before another child was introduced.
The thing is,Kim already had children, she just wants more. Just because we want something, it doesn't mean we should get it no matter what.
You are only thinking about her wants and not considering that 1. The woman giving her body probably needs the money desperately (such as cases of sexual workers), the child will be taken away from it's biological mother (as much as people hate this idea, it is true, it is best for children to be attached, preferably be born naturally and breastfed). As much as it is not always posible and I understand that, you wouldn't just choose to the "whatever" thing for a child. Who is thinking of these children? Everyone is saying how much the parent want more and more and easier. That's not what having a child it's about. I find it selfish to do "whatever you must not matter what" just for a personal want.
Life is not fair, not everyone gets what they want and that doesn't give people the right to continue to BUY humans
I suspect that the number who do surrogacy for the feels and enjoyment will be a smaller and smaller percentage as the commercial aspect increases due to desperate poverty
@@Kaybye555 interested in what you mean by "buying humans". are you referring to buying the surrogate mother, as if she is a slave? because that's really just not what surrogacy is in the modern western world. the surrogate has her rights and enters into surrogacy on her own terms. it is a service she chooses to provide, whether for money, to help an infertile family, or otherwise. i see it similarly to selling plasma (though i recognize it's certainly not as intense, expensive, and time-consuming as carrying a child).
you seem to be painting a grim picture over all surrogacies, and that just doesn't seem to be the reality. there are infertile couples who would truly do anything to have a child to love and care for, and it seems to be insensitive to tell them "suck it up, life's not fair, deal with it" when there are women who would be happy to help carry a child for them when they cant. there are also women who are happy to provide surrogacy services; just look up testimonials.
also, if it is a gestational surrogacy, the surrogate mother is not the biological mother because the child has the DNA of the mother and father for whom she is surrogating, not the surrogate's DNA.
You can't pay me enough to become a surrogate. Child birth is extremely painful. Those contractions are no joke and postpartum depression makes you feel homicidal/suicidal.
Even if I could hire a surrogate I wouldn't because I dont trust that woman enough to take care of my unborn baby. Knowing me I would want to control what she eats and what she does to make sure my baby is healthy. To give a stranger your own baby to grow and not think about them until they are born tells me you don't really care for that baby.
I have many qualms with service but my number one problem with it is the fact that you could just adopt instead of renting a womb. Unless you're in a very specific situation like you're a queer couple and your Living in a place where you're not allowed to adopt legally.
This is actually a bit of a fallacy and not the best comparison.
One aspect that surrogacy enables is a blood-related child to at least one of the intended parents. This can be important in cultures where blood is valued highly, whereas an adopted child might not be accepted by the extended family.
Another aspect is that adoption is multifaceted: In some places like Australia, only a handful of babies are placed for adoption each year. So for someone who wants to raise a child from infancy, adoption is unlikely to work out. They can try to adopt domestically but it can take many, MANY years and there is no guarantee of getting a child. They can try to adopt internationally, in which case it is pretty much guaranteed that the youngest you will get is a toddler.
Then there are countries where adoption is not allowed or highly stigmatized generally, not just for queer couples but also single people. And then you have the issue that for adoption, the government of course has a right to examine your fitness to be a parent - which is good, but also has the potential of discrimination, for example if you belong to an ethnic or religious minority or if you have chronic illnesses or disabilities.
There is no "just adopt" almost anywhere in the world. I say that as someone who wants to adopt: It's not a simple process. It will involve lots of preparation, since children who are up for adoption have generally experienced at least one trauma in their lives, potentially more than that if you adopt from foster care or an orphanage.
Surrogacy is, in fact, the easier option. You can plan for it. If it is done ethically, the surrogate has given consent to go through the process, and then the main issue is getting a pregnancy established and going to term. If the laws where the surrogate lives allow for pre-birth parentage orders, the intended parents have more legal assurance that they can take the baby home. Not every place has those rules, so a surrogate elsewhere might be able to decide to keep the baby. That's not something intended parents necessarily want to experience.
In adoption, you need to first find a child that you can adopt. This means that a child has to already be legally abandoned and declared adoptable, or a person who is currently pregnant or has recently given birth chooses you to adopt their baby (or social workers choose you depending on how the system works where you are; either way, the parent that birthed the child has to choose to place the child for adoption). And the person who birthed the child (or the other biological parent) has the right to take back the decision to let their child be adopted (this too depends on where the child is born, for example in Florida as soon as the placing parent signs consent to adoption, they can't take it back, whereas other states have a period of time where they can still revoke their consent). So the moment you can actually be assured that the child is legally yours is after the adoption has been granted by a court, and that takes a minimum of a few months.
Both surrogacy and adoption come with certain ethical issues to contend with. They are not replacements for each other. Someone who wants to adopt won't necessarily want to have a child through surrogacy, and someone who wants to have a child through surrogacy doesn't necessarily want to adopt.
People are allowed to do what they want. Not everyone wants to adopt and your exception sound ridiculous and biased. So queer people are allowed to have kids via surrogacy but hetero couples aren't?
What's stopping queer couples from adopting? 😒
There are thousands of children in desperate need of a foster family but actual adoption is extremely difficult because it's heavily regulated and both of the child's parents must be dead. It can be different in your country but I imagine not that much.
@@TheYasmineFlower nothing ethical about exploiting women and risking financially desperate womens health and lives for your own selfish desires 🤡 stop trying to convince people here with your twisted BS under so many comments. This is worse than prostitution because women can literally die from pregnancy or birth related complications or deal with permanent health issues because of pregnancy or birth.
That doesn’t give you a right to rent a woman’s body !!!!
We need the Artificial Womb Technology asap instead, so that women who wants biological kids of her own, but are afraid or are not willing to go through the extreme hardships, risks and pains of natural pregnancy and childbirth can opt for an artificial womb to gestate their fetuses without having to go pregnant themselves or depend on surrogate mother's to have biological kids. Because, pregnancy is afterall extremely hard, risky, painfull and damaging to a woman's health and wellness, be it on biological mothers or surrogate mothers. No women should have to go through that horror, to have a biological child, if they don't want to. Reproduction should be as easy for a woman, as it is for a man.
That feels dystopian, if u can’t handle the risk of pregnancy, are u ready for the sacrifice of raising children
Pregnant with my third. It’s not THAT bad.
Thia brings its own problems. Child bearing is not just about the fetus being alive. There are so many intricate things happening in a womb that are importar, we cannot replicate it. Highly unethical
That wouldnt lead into eugenics really quickly 🥴
Even cars were considered "dystopian", when they first became a thing. IVF was called "dystopian" when they first became a thing. And many more such examples. Its called technophobia. Sure, there might be ethical issues that needs to be addressed with proper laws and regulations. Doesn't mean, we don't need this much needed technology that can save thousands of lives and make having kids easier.
5:50 You said that with a straight face. Bravo.
I had no idea this was happening. So interesting (and concerning)!
As soon as you said "Liberal Feminism" I was like oooo I'm not the only one who has read some Louise Perry as well
Thanks for talking about this subject. I didn't know surrogacy existed until a couple years ago and when I found out, I was so shocked and thought how messed up and sick it is and wondered why nobody is talking about this twisted exploitation of women... why isn't it in the news?? I just can't imagine being so selfish that you would exploit a financial desperate woman and risk her health and life for your personal wish to have a newborn baby. So many kids need a home and are up for adoption, but they would rather spend money to exploit and potentially permanently harm women. These selfish, sick people don't care about children or anybody else, they shouldn't be able to buy kids just because they have money.
There are not that many children up for adoption, and the ones that are up for adoption are not babies (and often not even toddlers, but school age kids and teenagers, often kids who have experienced terrible things - those kids need people who are ready to parent THEM, not people who settle for them because they couldn't get a baby). Not every country allows adoption, some countries still have big stigma attached to adoption, and some people who would otherwise adopt can't access it because they may be single, have a chronic illness or disability, are part of an ethnic or religious minority, or other factors that have them be discriminated against.
Not every surrogate is paid. In many countries, surrogacy is allowed but only altruistic surrogacy. So the surrogate is not compensated (or only supported in a few ways, like reimbursement for lost wages). There are quite a few women who do this out of a desire to help.
Surrogacy can be exploitative, but is not automatically exploitation. I recommend the book Brown Bodies, White Babies by Laura Harrison on this subject.
@@TheYasmineFlower It is pure exploitation!! No matter if you pay financial desperate women because you can afford to do so or if you brainwash them into doing something "altruistic" for your own selfish desires. What if the woman dies during pregnancy or birth or has complications and then permanent health damages or issues for life? People who pay for this or people like you who defend this cruel BS don't give a sh*t about these women and potential negative consequences for these women. Selfish, sick people like that shouldn't be parents in the first place, yuck. And don't talk sh*t. The people who pay for surrogacy, don't even try for adoption because they want their DNA and a newborn baby, no matter if it might cost a womans health or even life. Sick. Zero justification to exploit women like that for your own desires.
Some women love being pregnant. I can't be. If we get together we can make magic. It's just another industry that needs a revamp.
This is a very harsh characterization of the motivations and desires of most people that have a surrogate baby.
@@ivy7417 because some people don’t look for understanding a complex issue or social phenomenon. They look for someone to hate / feel better about themselves and their “righteous” heart and soul. Thus, such harsh assumptions and characterization that leads to hate, stereotyping and stigmatization of people that sometimes don’t deserve it at all.
You always cover the most interesting topics!
To me this just shows how much we treat babies and children like accessories or luxury goods. Wealthy people are so desperate to have them they will pay massive amounts and go to great lengths to get themselves a fresh baby. Then they hire other people to raise them. Meanwhile, poor women are being tricked, discouraged or downright thrown in jail if they get an abortion. There is an entire industry based on convincing poor women to have babies and SELL them to wealthy families. Paying womenlarge sums to have your baby is absolutely a business. You are preying on the poorer woman to need your money badly enough that she will spend 9 months carrying a baby that she will give up for you, then deal with all the recovery from birth.
What cemented the insanity of this to me was seeing people arguing that brain dead women should be used to make babies for people who want them. Without any consent required from the woman when she was actually alive. People are so crazy to have babies that they will actually see a brain dead woman's body as just an incubator for their use. It's sick. It's like some kind of fucking horror movie.
i love your videos. This one was very tough.
You showed us yet another side the cracks in our declining society
Thank you so more talking about this - it's so worrisome but until recently I've only seen small feminist/academic channels discussing this. Jennifer Lahl with Venus Rising has lots of amazing podcasts about the surrogacy industry.
I love your topics so so much! Almost no one surfaces them, plus you do a phenomenal job being level headed and intelligent! I usually add snarky cheesy ornaments to my comments but won't do here, for a change :D
As liberalism is the worship of the self, this drive to "free" ourselves from nature and life is just a predictable, late stage outcome.
Great video. Side note: what lipstick are you wearing? Love it!
In the netherlands its illegal, idk how i feel about it, but it does feel creepy to rent someones womb. Its not just a bread your baking, how will a woman not feel a connection to the baby growing in het womb.
As what Jesus is
My aunt is a professor of anthropology (a colored woman, much like yourself), and she told me about all this awful stuff a long time ago. It's such a struggle to try and explain these things to my white girlfriend (who is very lefty and very liberal), but she listens to your videos a lot more than she does to me, so thanks for that!
we don’t use the word “colored” anymore 🫠💀 it’s not the 1960s
In South Africa we do. It's a pretty common and impartial term in Africa as opposed to mixed, etc.
@@KidologyCO interesting. that’s really archaic and demeaning here. thanks for letting me know, i want to visit Cape Town and Joburg…. definitely will never be calling Black folk “colored” though 🤣
@@KidologyCO Coloured and Black are not the same thing in South Africa. Coloureds are a multiracial ethnic group here in South Africa, however it's not the same as biracial. Being black on the other hand means your ethnicity is purely indiginously African. We don't have the 1 drop rule like in the U.S
Not on the subject of surrogacy, but could I ask (I really hope I'm not pissing anyone off here) whether it is really offensive, in this day and age, to call an American black (who is probably not 100% pure black) "coloured", because I was very badly criticised -yesterday- on a forum for daring to use that term to a celeb. As a originally Central European living in the UK myself, I would not have thought it offensive (or possibly racist). Thank you
I knew you had read ''Feminism against progress'' 2 minutes into the video, I'm reading it myself right now! And I really recommend it for anyone who has ever felt icky about the current trends in feminism and the modern view of motherhood. Its been a very enlightening and thought-provoking read. If you're not into reading she has been on podcasts like Triggernometry and Maiden Mother Matriarch.
It is a book I like to call "fishing the net" back in, read Right Wing Women. Mary is a Marabel Morgan - one who compromises surrogacy as it is in a relationship that is proctored but her brand of reaction is for women to basically compromise in every ideal until essentially everything they do is a reflective surrogacy. She calls herself a "reactionary feminist" because she is just that - one who wants to "salvage" the points of feminism for her own personal gain. I would just listen to a high brand narcissist if I wanted to align myself with her.
It was just a question of time when some feminists would turn regressive. It's just luddite nonsense, she's citing the Ancient Greeks and warning of some hubris... Such a religiously informed perspective, essentializing body functions as if they're some sort of sacred symbols... should tell you everything you need to know. Oh no, humans no longer tear raw flesh with their teeth. We're using these metallic tools to feed ourselves. And we no longer ride horses, instead we're moving on loud contraptions fueled by dinosaur corpses that we set on fire inside the contraption's engine. We're also staring at screens and communicating silently by using black magic called the internet.
The sheer transhumanist horrors!
Uhhh. Can we all just continue forward please enough with these paranoid, schizo hangups.
I get women not wanting to be pregnant but still wanting kids but why not, like, adopt?
I think children and mothers used to be more public, prior to the industrial revolution. The job of parenting was just just the job of mother and father, but was shared between female relatives and friends. 6:03
This was so good. Thank you for talking about it. I agree with everything you said and it's quite heartbreaking and screwed up what they're doing
13:32 All family plannig, regardless of how it takes place, is guided by the notion of potentially having a child at the best and optimal time for the parent, or when it is most convenient. That's literally what family planning is for the most part.
Why do sureogacy when there are so many children that need adopting and fostering?
Kind of weird seeing these older women use gestational carrier generally speaking older women can carry their own children. It’s just that getting pregnant is harder because their eggs aren’t as good. but if you freeze your eggs, you should be able to carry the baby via IVF. there are women in their 50s and 60s doing this
Not necessarily. Miscarriage rates are higher in older women.
@@productioninquiry8937 yes usually because of the eggs I mean it might be slightly higher even with IVF but generally speaking, it shouldn’t be a big problem. One of my close friends works as an OB/GYN. She literally has patients that are in their 50s having babies for the first time via IVF.
@Yve Je How many have had fibroid surgery? 1 in 5 women have fibroids by age 50 and that's the lowest estimate.
@@productioninquiry8937 you can get pregnant with fibroids. Lots of women have fibroids actually and carry to term
@@yveje9720 Women with fibroids miscarry during early pregnancy at twice the rate of women without them.
Ah yes, getting freed from the pains and hardships of pregnancies… by underpaying a less privileged woman to endure it instead. Great.
When the money is actually going to the surrogate, I don’t see where there’s an issue. Me. Have been “ordering kids” since the Dawn of time. It’s almost always on their schedule, to give them heirs, etc. now women are able to have more CHOICE in how they want yo have children. And surrogates are able to profit from it. Back in the day they would just have the husband sleep with a servant and then take the baby. She makes no profit and doesn’t have any agency over the act.
You aren't wrong, but you are viewing it through a simple 'oppressed' lens. This view is centered around money being the best thing we think people will strive for.
Time is a resource for all of us, and the 9 months that the gestational carrier is spending on person A's child is time lost on cultivation of their own family. Compensation can't replace that.
Brilliant commentary! I actually applauded you around the Mary Harrington segment of the video.
Mary Harrington is a TERF.
I appreciate this converstion. I also agree with the notion that parenting is a privilege, not a right. My only issue with completely rejecting all surrogacy, gestational carriers, adoption, and fostering is: how are gay men couples ever going to access parenthood? If parenting is a privilege (not a right) it still seems unequal to me that it's a privilege reserved for straight people and sapphics.
I often get the feeling that "parenting is a privilege, not a right" is a talking point by people who don't have to consider struggling to become a parent. It's easy to say "this isn't a right" when they can easily fall pregnant through sex. But same-sex couples, couples with one (or two) trans partner, people with some chronic illness or disability (including infertility), are told "it's not a right to have a child, it's a privilege".
I've come to the point where I actually disagree with that statement. Parenting is a right, to a certain point. It is not okay to prevent people from becoming parents if they want to be.
Surrogacy definitely has ethical and moral issues. I personally think that governments need to prosecute intended parents who abandon their surrogacy-born children for child abandonment, for example.
Sadly, lots of people who oppose surrogacy AND adoption and/or fostering are also against gamete donation generally, so they would also discriminate against lesbians/same-sex female couples/sapphics. Which is an intention of a significant part of the anti-surrogacy crowd: A return to only healthy heterosexual fertile married couples being given the "privilege" of parenthood - because they are seen as deserving of the privilege. If they call it a "right" instead, then they would have to agree that people have a right to it. But in many of those circles, only people who conform to certain societal norms have a right to become parents.
@@TheYasmineFlower we get it, the well being of people who can't make their own children is more important than the health and lives of surrogate mothers. You could just admit that you're a selfish fk instead of trying to manipulate people into feeling sorry for selfish people who put their own desires over the health and lives of other women. Nothing ethical about it.
@@TheYasmineFlower thank you so much for your reply :) I agree with every point you made. Prosecution for people who abandon surrogacy babies is one of many other actions that should be regulated. I think I agree now that parenting is a right of sorts, I'm just scared by the way parenting as a right functions within capitalism, creating surrogacy and adoption industries for profit rather than the betterment of the lives of the children at stake. After your comment though I can totally see how reserving parenting is a privilege can be discriminatory and can also lead to downright eugenics depending on interpretation. So thank you, now I can see parenting as a right AND still think there are lots of issues to be fixed about child welfare in systems of parenthood access.
@@liladuran8733 I share your concern about the function of parenting within capitalism. I think the only way to adress that is to abolish capitalism. Until that happens, every part of our lives will be touched by capitalist forces. Even things that should not be monetized have money attached to them: In many countries, adoption is not as expensive as it is in the US. But there is still money involved because people need to work and invest time and resources into it, such as social workers examining prospective parents, lawyers filing for an adoption, judges who grant an adoption, and so much more.
Which is something that I find off-putting myself. But as long as we have capitalism, this will continue. :/ I do hope that we will see that system abolished and something put in its place that actually values human rights and the rights of children.
Anyways, I am happy that my thought was helpful to you. :)
Why should gay couples be owed a "right" to parenthood? If a same sex couple feels so inclined to parent, then adopt or foster. Adopting or fostering is too difficult? Then suck it up buttercup. No one is owed a human being. And I think you misunderstand the word "privilege" in this scenario. It is a privilege to be in good enough health to be impregnated and carry a child to full term within a committed relationship with the biological father. It is a right on the child's behalf to be granted all of their needs as we understand them to be necessary for children. That being, breastfeeding from their biological mother who birthed them, bonding with their mother, bonding with their biological father, and being raised by both of them. Any deviation from this is a sure fire way to disadvantage a child's well being. Sometimes these deviations are unavoidable, but it is perverse to do it on purpose.
renting a womb is sinister! people want to have BABIES but they forget they are creating a PERSON. it's so much responsibility! most people don't deserve to be parents, just look at the news! if you don't have to carry a baby, do you have time to raise one? no! it's gonna be nannies and strangers UGH
FINALLY someone said this
imagine spending 9 months inside your mother, whether she is genetically your mother or not doesn’t matter, she’s your mother if she’s carrying you, she’s the one creating your physicality. imagine listening to her heartbeat everyday and night for 270 days, her voice, her laughter, imagine feeling every emotion she feels, tasting everything she eats, imagine having a mother, just to lose her and never see her again after birth. that’s trauma.
Even just on a gut reaction level, something about watching Khloe Kardashian drive to the hospital to watch the surrogate give birth, have the child not even touch the arms of the woman who just gave birth to them, and immediately have Kardashian sit in a hospital bed in another room in a hospital gown and then hold the child. That should not be something with a price on it.
Even just on a hormonal level, that must wreak havoc on the surrogate mother.
Everytime someone brings up the surrogacy topic all I can think is The Handmaid's Tale.
There are orphanages in these countries where babies go to die because of lack of resources. I wish the rich would adopt from there.
They would have the means to support a special-needs child.
These orphanages need to be adopted empty, all the children deserve to be free and loved.