Why Hades & Persephone Aren't the Cute Couple You Think They Are |
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- Опубліковано 21 лют 2023
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I've got a theory! Modern day Hades and Persephone retellings are NOT retellings of the ancient myth... they are retellings of each other, retellings of the modern day Hades and Persephone who have become so popular.
A don't thing the fact that she is kidnapping is bad for a romantic history, infact the biggest temple in the mediterraneo is the temple of Locri dedicated to the marriage of Hades and Persephone, and the fact that she is kidnapping look like a really important thing for the Cult, maybe is a cerimonial thing and not is promoting Bride kidnapping for humans
Infact a read articles about Paradise Lost,Claudian de Raptu Proserpinae and Jhon Milton and this version of Pluto is the apparent basis for creation Lucifer of Paradise Lost, If this true every badboy ever is a Hades reboot
It makes way more sense that Death would covet the rebirth that Spring represents. But why would Spring crave Death? Fantasy is fun but I think some folks forget the gods were anthropomorphized forces of nature and consciousness.
Ursula K. LeGuin’s novella Hernes, sometimes part of Searoad, includes a “retelling” that does not romanticize Hades and Persephone’s relationship and instead explores it as a rape and centers the women’s experience. It has a brief chapter exploring the myth from the perspective of a daughter who was born from her father’s rape of her mother. It’s really beautiful and devastating, though it’s not a lengthy retelling. Also the portrayal of the mother/daughter relationships between the Demeter/Persephone figures and the power of that womanhood is especially poignant. Would recommend.
A retelling focusing on the actual trauma the story is about, as well as the strong bond between mother and daughter would be great. So would one where goat Persephone kidnaps Hades to make him god of the mushrooms 😹
I’m holding out for Madeline millers version aha. Also I’m now convinced someone should make an animated short about the goat and mushroom 😂
Well done! Love your video. I think, making Hades the hero and Demeter the villain in modern retellings is another proof of how much we are all influenced by patriarchy. It just fits in so perfectly in all the stereotypes about the evil mother-in-law...
I’m so sad for Demeter! Can we not at least champion her even if the story between hades and Persephone is romantic 😭
I think our tendency to write and seek out these types of retellings (where there is a romantication of an abusive situation) is also deeply connected to our internalised misogyny and the romantication of abuse that a lot of us have grown up with.
We were taught in many different ways that physical and emotional abuse, stalking, abduction etc is romantic (when guys do it). We were taught that it means he loves us and that it's something we should desire; that it means we are special.
And growing up with these messages instilled in us through sayings, stories and so on, aswell as (for many of us) having experienced this first hand in romantic and sexual relationships means it's now deeply rooted in us; in our worldviews and sexualities. And so we tend to repeat the pattern.
Madeline Miller has been writing a Persephone retelling and I do wonder what her take will be- considering her version of Circe I think she wouldn’t shy away from it being an abduction story.
This is what I’m hoping!! She usually rights narratives really rooted in antiquity and she knows her stuff so right now my trust is there aha. It might upset some die hard hades/Persephone shippers though :S
@@JeansThoughts she his a really good opinion about Hades
@@JeansThoughts and mythological Persephone is argualy more problematic than Hades! She groomed and SA his adopted son Adonis, in some sources he is discribed as a literal baby in the moment she falls in love with him
I really appreciated the argument you made for Demeter. I have been obsessed with Lore Olympus for many years now and did not now the true myth of hades and Persephone until you started talking about it this essay video. I had heard the myth wasn’t consensual but didn’t know the specifics. I also hadn’t really known very much about Demeter except what is in Lore Olympus and I am sad to report that although she is portrayed as a loving mother she is also super overbearing towards her daughter. I really appreciated you bringing to light what kind of a mother Demeter was according to the ancient texts. Really loving this video series!
Thank you for this! I love learning what antiquity has to say about this tale, and how it has been changed by storytellers over time.
i love these video essay videos!!! thank you for making them!
Thank you so so much that means a lot!
Well done, Jean 🖤 Thank you for such a fantastic video essay!
Check out the book "The Goddess Letters" if you can find it. I haven't read it in like 25 years but it's a more honest retelling and goes over the traumas that she experiences and how she deals with it.
Thank you for making this video! I really learned a lot. I don’t remember much about Hades & Persephone and from what I do remember is that it’s not a consensual relationship, which always leads to confusion when retellings are romantic. I’ve actually put off reading retellings of the 2 because of not knowing much and there being that disconnect between what I knew “& what I was seeing in modern texts. I always learn so much from your videos! I really appreciate the passion and the knowledge you put into them & I’m sorry you’ve gotten a lot of vitriolic responses for something you clearly are an expert in.
I’m so glad you did this video. I have been reading a lot of mythology before I start my dive into the plethora of retellings that are being pushed out on us readers. I love to know what the original story was, before I read a re-telling ( that’s the nerd part in me 😅) I was wondering why most of these epic romances didn’t match up with what the original story was and why very few people seem to know. Love how your video is so informative. Keep them coming. 😊
I really LOVE these videos!!!! Thank you so much ❤❤❤❤❤
Great video and essay!
Thanks so much!
I always love it when you do these videos and this was so interesting, thank you! 💛
In my opinion, the reason why these retellings refuse to cast Hades as an aggressor, is because the writers don't want to change the ending of the story. They want Hades and Persephone to be a successful relationship/couple in the end, and they perceive such an attack as unforgivable. But, because Persephone's story is essentially a sexual assault/abduction myth, and because they want to explore these themes (possibly even in a feminist way), they decide to displace the assault and cast someone else in the villain's role.
Thank you so much for making this video! it was really interesting :) Personally I generally really like modern myth retellings because they often recontextualize something to fit more with modern values/ideals (like how a lot of people say how Athena is a protector of SA survivors because of what happened with Medusa even though that's not something covered in ancient texts iirc, or how Hades's aim was always to empower Persephone to reach her own potential even without him etc etc) and that's all fine and I really like that people (including myself) find comfort in that, but it irks me so much when people then claim that these modern myths are based on some hidden texts or claim that ancient people's believed that - The ancient Greeks not believing something doesn't take away from the power that story can have Today but it does take away from understanding an ancient society better? (hope that makes sense?) - Either way just glad now I have this excellent video to point people to when they claim there is evidence of a consensual Hades & Persephone relationship.
Yes! This is the crux of it and you’re absolutely right (you made complete sense aha). Loads of retelling I like take huge liberties but it’s the particular way this myth has begun to be backdated so heavily that irks me.
This was such a fantastic video, thank you for putting in all this thought and effort. I would love a retelling where the original story is told, I saw in the comments that Madeline Miller is writing a retelling so hopefully that will be more along those lines.
Now if people ask me why I haven’t read any Hades and Persephone retellings I’ll just tell them to watch this video!
Also I didn’t realise ACOMAF was a Hades and Persephone retelling, that makes sense though and also casts a different light on my feelings about the book, hmm
I plan on reading The Dark Wife soon and the points you brought up are something I never thought about. I think they'll change my reading experience and I appreciate that! Excellent video essay!
Oooh i’d definitely be interested in hearing your final thoughts!
I wasn't aware of retellings framing the myth of Persephone and Hades as a love story. I grew up reading the still-in'print D'Aulaires' Book of Greek Myths. Even though some of the stories have been bowdlerized for children, they don't gloss over the fact that Persephone was kidnapped by Hades and held against her will. I am so glad I learned these myths at a young age. Just last week someone at work told me of an acquaintance who was planning to name her child Artemis when she is born. That was all the encouragement I needed to launch into how you shouldn't mess with such a kick-ass goddess as Artemis and told my co-worker the story of Actaeon. Also, I love your Wedgwood pendant. I have several pieces of their jewelry and recognized your pendant right away--I have the same design in a dark blue brooch.
Absolutely fantastic video, Jean, thank you so much for making it. I have gotten in so many arguments over this topic 😅 Would you recommend Andrew Lang's translation of the Homeric Hymns? I see you're working off the Oxford edition, but I'm hoping you're familiar with both and can tell me if it's accurate enough. Thank you!!
I feel like part of why they make the relationship a consensual one in the end is to give their Persephone an, in their eyes, "happy ending". The original myths didn't really do that; she's forced to return to her kidnapper/potential abuser for at least part of the time. If the relationship is consensual, well, then she gets "the best of both worlds" in big quotation marks. Obviously, that, and portraying Demeter as a raging controlling bitch like she's in Lore Olympus, or Neon Gods, rather than a mother justifiably horrified at what's happened to her daughter, completely goes against the spirit of the myth, but that's my guess.
Please keep making videos like this! They are so fascinating!
I grew up knowing the original myth, so when these stories stated becoming popular I was so weirded out! I mean I'm not mad at it, but it's just strange to me. 😂
Aw I'm so glad they're being enjoyed!
LOVE THIS
But legit, can we please get a story about hades being abducted by a goat and becoming a mushroom farmer, because that sounds cozy and fab
I have all the faith in Madeline Miller that she will do a good job in writing about them in her new book.
Honestly same!
The story you told was the story im familiar with. When I was young I got myth books from the library.x
Such an incredible video that I learnt so much! Thank you so mcuh Jean! I have seen the musical Hadestown at the beginning of the year. While Hades and Persephone were not the main characters (it's a story about Orpheus and Eurydice), they were both key side characters and their existence moved the story forward. I do notice that Persephone was not happy when she saw Hades (at this point they already made the arrangements for her to go back to the living world but come back to the underworld for a chunk of time a year. And this musical happens in one year Hades holds Persephone for longer than he should be, so it's winter in the living world for a long time). Persephone especially expressed her dismay at seeing Hades so early and they seemed to have some troubles in their relationship. But in the meantime, it also delivers the image of the beginning of Hades-Persephone relationship was sweet, they just drifted apart over years and that's why Persephone doesn't want to stay with him.
Fantastic video! One thought on your question about why the sexual attacker is moved from the character of Hades to another god in modern retellings is to provide different positive options for Persephone for a modern mindset. In the original myth Persephone is given the option of daughter or unwilling wife. Both still operate within the structure of patriarchy. She doesn’t have a clear independent role of authority or autonomy. She has a subordinate role to Demeter or Hades. By moving the sexual aggressor to another character, yes, it preserves the romantic narrative that seems so popular, but it also allows modern audiences to imagine a future for Persephone that they can relate to: one of autonomy and adulthood and consensual partnership. I think this is particularly highlighted by the added tension between Persephone and Demeter in the Lore Olympus retelling which is doubly confirmed by its coming of age emphasis. In that story, we are also repeatedly told that Persephone is a young goddess and she is leaving home for the first time, becoming an adult. So this allows the narrative to do all of the following: explore sexual assault for Persephone’s character, preserves the romantic narrative, and provides an alternative future for Persephone which can be framed as autonomous and self-directed. I think all of these resonate with the modern reader.
im glad i subcribed to your channe! looking forward for more mythology content
Aw I'm so glad you're enjoying the content! I can reveal I'm working on a mythology related reading vlog right now aha.
I LOVE this video! I am currently studying both classics and creative writing with the intention of publishing a retelling more in line with the ancient myth. Orpheus and Eurydice is the other story I am working on.
Oooooh cool!
well, let me introduce to Destroyer of Light by Jennifer Marie Brissett! It is partly a Persephone retelling but it's also a dark science fiction story by a Black author that explores humans as refugees, aliens and child soldiers (check CWs obviously). It seems to be more based on the original Greek myth as far as I can tell; at the very least it's not a romance and the Demeter figure is not made out to be a villain.
Oh and their is a play that has some of those themes if I remember correctly: The Closed Doors by Pauline Albanese (it's available for free).
(There is also By Pain of Death by Suzanne Clay which reimagines the story with a disabled Hades and Seph as a trans man - I thought I'd mention it for your database even if doesn't do anything unqiue regarding the original myth. Also Kore by Ambrosia Harris.)
I think, similarly to the Beauty & the Beast retellings, they are not really retellings anymore, it's just easy shorthand to describe what character dynamics, plot points and possibly setting you will have in a book, usually a romance. Like B&B will usually include forced proximity, a capable fmc, a monstrous love interest/someone who will have character growth, a curse, a castle. P&H will often have an abduction element (willing or unwilling), forced proximity again, an age gap, morally grey love interest, Persephone character finding their voice, Gods/powers and is often enemies to lovers.
I think many people just enjoy that combo of tropes and not actually the Greek myth.
As for why not make Hades the villain is I think 1. a God love interest is appealing and I think Death in particular is an obvious choice, 2. Hades is most commenly known as the most "normal"/well-behaved of the other Gods, so other options might not seem as appealing and 3. they do end up married/together so people are trying to figure how that worked out and saying she stayed with her kidnapper sounds more like a horror story.
Until I found booktube 3 years ago I had no idea Hades & Persephone retellings were a thing and popular. It did surprise me because I had read the myths as a kid, and the story is very dark and not just a fun enemies-to-lovers story.
Maybe the Disney Hercules movie is one reason it became popular. I've never seen the movie since I am old (lol) but I have friends who do love the movie and have made their kids fans. In fact, a few years ago, her 3 kids were in a Children's Theatre production of the Hercules movie. Xander played Hades and had so much fun with his blue-dyed hair. Lol
I did read a retelling last year that is very dark and much closer to the original myth. It is a scifi called Destroyer of Light by Jennifer Marie Brissett.
I didn't know till watching this that this was a thing. I also know the original version from reading the myths themselves as a kid. Yeah, abduction and trickery.
I haven't ever seen the movie Hercules, and while I love myth retellings, I haven't read one of Persephone (are they more in the Romance genre rather than the actual myth retelling genre???) I can't fathom Persephone/Hades being a love story!
@Erin H From other booktubers it seems the popular Hades/Persephone retellings are the ones that kind of glamorize the relationship. Like what Disney did to classic fairytale (Grimm, Anderson) to sanitize the story for a younger audience.
The graphic novel series Jean mentioned is the one that is the most popular right now but I've heard of plenty of others from booktubers who read a lot of fantasy romance. I've not read any of those. Just the dark scifi I mentioned above.
I think some fans know the real story but put it out of their mind to enjoy an angtsy romance. Others probably have no idea.
Honestly, I don’t think it was Disney. It was definitely those ya romances, like Twilight and fifty shades of grey. That sort of dark and toxic “romance” is very popular.
Madeline Miller is writing a Persephone book. Hopefully she writes something truer to the ancient myth!
Great video, I always feel like I learn so much from you and am grateful for your time in sharing your knowledge.
Honestly I can’t imagine arguing over the internet about Hades and Persephone’s relationship with someone who has studied Ancient Greece for years 🙄 I guess it’s possible some of those people also had PhDs 😂
One dude told me it didn't matter that I could read Ancient Greek I still didn't understand the original texts... aha. But I'm so glad you enjoyed the video!
Random recommendation, but check out Tamino's song Persephone - it's really cool song and a cool, creepy retelling of the story in song form and from Hades's pov.
Oooooh I'll give it a listen.
I read a lot about the ancient myths when I was younger, and I am pretty old so the internet was a very different place 😂😂 back then, in the 90s, when I would search for info it was mostly just retelling the myths in modern language and therefore I think I got a pretty good understanding of how the myths were actually written. I’ve always known about the violence and non-consensuality (not a word haha!) of the Hades and Persephone myth, and didn’t realize that people were trying to change the backstory - although I’m not surprised. I agree, Jean, that all these retellings are probably just retellings of the retellings and I would suspect that a lot of readers and authors aren’t even aware that these are ancient stories. And not to make this the longest comment ever, but I also see a parallel between this and the gads of romance readers and the romance tropes - people seem to love an « enemies to lovers » story. Not my thing, but I see it everywhere!
Having taught myself Latin, I am aware that Ovid's version of this tale followed the Ancient Greek originals. It was a violent abduction in his version too.
Thank you for giving us a run down on the myth in antiquity. I personally like Hades & Persephone retellings as a love story (I'm a sucker for a good love story) BUT I'm picky about it and I've read versions I really dislike. Abusive relationships are never ok. I think about Superhero stories now because let's face it, Superheroes are US mythology but what will or will not survive. Could Superman survive as Ultraman instead. I'm babbling but I hope I'm making sense. My point is myths are stories we will tell and retell for as long as humans exist BUT knowing the "original" surviving stories are also important. Thanks again and love this kind of discussion.
Amazing essay Jean. I was wondering where this fascination with Hades and Persephone is coming from...I think it can be because of the bookish Internet' s obsession with tropes. The Hades/Persephone myth fits in with the 'enemies to lovers' mould very well.
I find it a bit strange that a lot of readers are so captivated by these tropes, that it seems like the trope itself comes first and all the rest (story, characters etc) are secondary .
Don't get me wrong I'm not shaming anyone who like to read these tropes, but I personally would get bored reading the same story over and over again.
I would love to read a retelling from Persephone's point of view that’s not a romance.
I think the people who are flipping out on you on you on BookTok might be a bit too invested in this 'enemies to lovers' trope.
Please keep making these videos Jean, even if some people get angry at you. 😅It's really important to talki about these topics without trying to romaticising it. xx
Hi I'm not sure if you'll be able to read this but here are some of my thoughts as someone who enjoys the modern retellings and why Demeter's relationship to Persephone becomes either villainized or complicated. The only comments I've read are that there is internal misogyny and how the patriarchy is affecting what we want to look for in a romance or the rise of Dark Romance in romanticizing abusive relationships. These may be true but I don't think it explains why in many retellings wherein the relationship becomes consensual someone else is doing the stalking (like Lore Olympus) in order to recharacterize Hades as a better partner for Persephone.
I think it's more of a reflection of how we currently view death rather than how the ancients view death. We now have the benefit of modern medicine to demistify certain things but death of a person is still the biggest change that everyone knows will eventually happen to them. And yet death is necessary for life to continue. Even if you refuse to eat any animal, you can't continue staying alive without killing plants. You also can't continue to stay alive if you allow viruses or bad bacteria to live. And so Death in itself is not as scary as it was in ancient times. So the duality of a couple who represents life and death is appealing because in many ways in our modern thinking only someone who understands Death could understand why Life is so precious, and someone who understands how Life is often unfair could see Death as the great equalizer. Death will always come to anykne alive no matter what you've done. Turn these into personifications or deities and realize that if there is no Death then sex would also not exist since biologically the only reason why we have a sex drive is for our genes to continue existing beyond the body of the person, and you've got a romantic story about two people who despite being on opposite sides of the same coin could fall in love or be popular with modern love stories. And also to add to it, the ultimate end of Death is also the Ultimate end of Life because if there is no more Life then there is no more Death that could happen. In a romantic perspective since Death comes for anyone alive there is no need to pretend to be something you are not, there is no need to when your life is going to end. And this is comforting because it's rare to find someone who will accept you for who you are without any conditions or who will always be there no matter what happens to you and no matter what you've done. You could change yourself for a potential partner, a family member, or to be accepted into a society that may not entirely accept you if you didn't. But no matter what happens Death always arrive. Hades and Persephone in our modern culture symbolizes these concepts with Persephone's cycle representing the cycle of Life and Hades representing Death which is why I think it's a popular story to romanticize.
As for why at the expense of this Demeter is either the villainous mother-in-law or her relationship becomes complicated - well I can't speak for others but I think it's because (anecdotally at least) many women (including myself) have mothers (who tend to be on the conservative side) who through their actions would like to continue treating their adult children as people who are still children but because we don't have the soft power or the resources to move out yet. It's complicated because rationally these mothers do love us and we are protected - but it comes at the cost of having autonomy. And when you still live with someone like that for a long time and who is overbearing, sometimes you get suicidal thoughts on simply embracing death to see if she'll regret saying well intentioned but still say those mean comments to you everyday or if she will realize how you two are different people and you want different things - it can get too much sometimes. This might be because I live in a conservative state wherein this is the norm, but this is a common experience among me and my female and afab friends. And the effect is that we hope that one day we have a partner who like the concept of Death will accept us for who we are since we need to perform a certain way to keep our families happy and it can get tiring. And since a romantic or sexual partner is one of the few decisions that the person themselves should choose (although they may still be influenced by those around them), the consensual version is a break from this almost daily experience.
To quote Contrapoints from her recent Twilight video it's about the emotional or psychological journey of a story and those emotional or psychological needs that the story helps process those needs without having to do so in reality. I don't want to have sex with my abductor in real life, but in a fictional story wherein he also symbolizes what I actually desire but I'm not allowed to have and those desires are very dark but not necessarily bad or evil, the circumstances of a story which allows me to have those desires without coming across as selfish or be ostracized or judged because of those desires is incredibly satisfying.
Again please don't judge me for liking them, but I hope this sheds a light on why it might be popular in the romance genre and why there's a rise in consensual LGBTQ+ versions of this story.
Soooo interesting as always Jean, thank you ! I'm one of those people who adore Hades & Persephone's myth retelling, but I do understand that story was not the original ancient one. It was so interesting to hear your thoughts on what is a feminist figure, and that Persephone is no less a strong woman because she was a victim of sexual violence. That giving her back agency (with her choosing Hades) is maybe not the "feminist" thing to do... So interesting.
As a little girl, I think I liked Hades because I pitied him, so alone in the underworld. He was described as fair, not cruel. And he seems to be the only greek God who stays faithful to his wife, I think that's why people think it must have been a love story even back then.
This is so incredible to have an expert, who I admire, weigh in on this topic! Maybe *you* should write an accurate Hades and Persephone retelling! I hate to admit it but I loooove Lore Olympus, but really just as its own story, not as a retelling. I totally understand why it bothers you and if I were an expert in Ancient Greece, I would be bothered too. By replacing Hades as the predator, it allows for Persephone and Hades to have a love story. Why nobody wants her to be victimized by Hades and have a different kind of love story, I don’t know. I’d love to read that version.
Love this video essay!
Thank you for speaking the truth out loud that Hades & Persephone is not an original love story!
And I totally agree with you, that Demeter deserves more spotlight
Justice for Demeter!
I'm not a fan of most of the modern retellings of the myth for the reasons you pointed out (Erasure of Hades as the perpertrator and the villainisation of Demeter). It feels like most modern retellings completely erase the themes of the original myth for the sake of having Hades be their emo book boyfriend (and then have the gall to claim that it's a feminist retelling). I'm just praying now that Madeline Miller does Persephone and Demeter justice.
I think I disagree a bit with what you said at the ending - that modern retellings maybe imply that Persephone is less of a strong female character because of the sexual violence she experiences.
To be honest I think these retellings mostly happen the way they do because of Hades and not because of Persephone. Hades as the ruler of the underworld, just appeals to people the way personifications of death usually do....to put it bluntly: he is an edgy cool mcmuffin that people want to like and if he is a rapist and a kidnapper of his niece that's a tad bit difficult to do.
So I think that retellings that still want to have a feminist view point have the problem of wanting their cake and eating it too.
Meaning that the appeal of writing about Hades and Persephone probably often starts with thinking that the concept of Hades as a love interest is thrilling to them and they like the whole opposites attract thing with Persephone being the youthful spring like character and Hades the cold, grumpy counterpart......but then they probably do know that persephone has actually been abducted in the original versions (even if they are misinformed they would probably know of at least SOME VERSION that has persephone as a victim) and don't want to erase her experience cause that would not feel very progressive. So then their solution to this is to just keep the experience but change the perpetrator.
To conclude, I don't think modern retellings need Persephone to be in this consensual relationship with Hades to be a strong female character, it's probably just more so that her being a strong female character isn't really why people chose to retell this story to begin with, they just have the hots for Hades. lol Or maybe I am just being cynical. ^^ It's really interesting to hear about these myths from someone that truly knows about the ancient texts though and I totally agree that people shouldn't date back these modern retellings and pretend like they align with the original versions.
Oh gosh I think it's just really hard to phrase but I didn't mean resellers explicitly believe a woman experiencing trauma isn't feminist, like I mentioned some retellings keep the sexual violence but move it away from Hades. What I mean is more that by repeatedly referring to the consensual reimagining as the feminist reimagining makes it seem as though that's the only way for it to be feminist - simply because people don't seem to write feminist reimagining where Hades still abducts her. Both versions can be written in modern, feminist ways, I just think saying that making it consensual is by virtue a feminist improvement (which I've seen argued) implies the obverse can't be feminist. Somewhat anyway. It's definitely a complex discussion. My issue is less with the retellings but more the justification often given by readers not writers for why the story is more feminist the modern way.
You’ve definitely got it right!
Jean, have you ever thought about interviewing Madeline Miller on your Channel ? I think it would be a fascinating conversation between the two of you !!
Oh I actually interviewed Madeline Miller on my podcast if you haven't heard it: soundcloud.com/user-591915376/retelling-classical-myths
Thank you so much for the link !!!
I've pondered on this for a while and the replacement of Hades as a rapist makes a lot of sense. People want to like him because he is a perfect case of a dark brooding man, and this type character is most loved at the moment. However what I see in fandoms: reaction to sexual abuse in fiction is more severe than reaction to murder. So in order to get an attractive hero, that detail is tranformed or erased. Voila, we have our trope in a beautiful mythological setting. I honestly think it's as simple as that.
For sure! He gives major cute broody emo tumblr boy in most modern versions I see.
A really interesting video !! I'm not super into Greek mythology retellings, but one I've been absolutely obsessed with is the musical Hadestown. It retells the stories of Orpheus & Eurydice as well as Hades & Persephone. I absolutely love it for its music, lyrics, themes and more, but my least favourite aspect is the portrayal of Hades & Persephone. Their marriage is not happy, part of it is that Hades tries to keep his wife around as much as possible and it causes all sorts of problems. My main problem here is that they seem to hold different values - Persephone's not happy with how he rules Hadestown, in the end nothing changes in that aspect, but still they agree to 'try again'. Whenever I get to that part I just sigh internally and move on, but I've seen so many shipping content for them in this particular version and I'm just like... why???
loved this video! i'd love to see your thoughts on the song of achilles, because wasn’t patroclus a good warrior who was changed by miller to be "weak"? not to mention the way in which the text frames all the female characters, including thetis as villains and severly judges them for the position they're put in by men. as a queer person i feel like, for a queer love story, it was written from a very heterosexual point of view.
I’m not gonna lie I’ve never really had any desire to read it. I hate Achilles so find the thought of reading a love story about him really unappealing aha. That’s such a bummer that Thetis gets done dirty though! I’d say generally Patroclus is a good warrior but nothing on hectors scale so I’m not sure how that’s done in the book.
I kinda disagree with your reading of Thetis. Yes she's a villain in the book but Song of Achilles treats her with a deep empathy. The most heartbreaking moment in the story for me was that final conversation between Patroclus and Thetis. Her grief at the loss of her son is the final note the story ends on. In that way I feel like Miller is asking us to understand Thetis rather than judge her.
@@booksvsmovies and i disagree with yours. even if miller tried to make us understand her at the end, the entirety of the novel is against her. from the beginning, when she is blamed for not staying with her husband, to the fact that she helped a woman r*pe her own son, the lack of empathy for thetis is displayed from the start. she, and other women in the story, are the villains altrough the book
@@c_a_r_m_i_l_l_a What's your take on Briseis?
I feel this popularity is part of the "dark romance" genre being so popular. People really love romanticizing abuse for some reason. The other thought is that it's also really in vogue right now to be reimagining dark characters and villians as more morally gray and sympathetic. Role reversal kinda thing. The "good guys" aren't actually good, the bad guys are just misunderstood.
We see this a lot in the Baldr and Loki myth too. Because Loki is so popular now, Baldr is often casted as some secret nefarious figure that deserved to be killed (God of War video games) so that Loki can still look good in their eyes.
@@ricardpark7714 definitely! I personally love looking at these old stories and archetypes from a different angle but only if it makes sense. The gods are archetypes and metaphors, not simply misunderstood humans. But maybe I'm just picky lol
To each their own but some of the romanticizing of abusive, narcissistic r*pists in modern stories really disturbs me.
Came here from Bookstagram. The most compelling part of this myth for me has always been Demeter. Do you know of any historical documents that show women with power over forming or opposing the marriages of their children or having that much agency?
Don't get me wrong all of Ancient Greece was a patriarchal society but there is nuance and ref. to female agency. The Gortyn Law Code is a great place to start - Gortyn was on Crete and we have a huge inscription that survives detailing marriage laws including women's rights to divorce and choosing their own husbands. Less specifically mothers but certainly the women themselves.
Algo que dices no coincide con el himno. Su madre le preguntó si había comido algo en el inframundo, no específicamente granadas y Persefone dice que sólo comió una semilla de granada. La idea es si no sabía que la comida del inframundo la ataba a él, porque no comió más alimentos en el año entero que estuvo allá?
Isn't the reason that the aggressor is changed in the stories because she ends up/remains married to Hades? With the aggressor being someone else and not the one she's married to the story doesn't have to tackle a story where the abuse survivor remains with their abuser. That kind of narrative can be hard to balance. It ends with us by colleen hoover is criticized all the time for having a an end like that.
That would definitely explain the motivation behind some retellings I'm sure! It's just interesting. If you're going to change a part why not change the ending then, or use the fact they don't have children as the basis to write a version where they don't have a romantic relationship, Persephone just becomes a bad ass queen of the underworld aha. Not that either is better. I just find it fascinating.
Im hunting down lore Olympus in broad daylight looking for raw beef fists out ready to draw BLOOD im so tired of this shit- /silly but rly tho....
Edit: to clarify, lore olympus put out some of the most annoying least educated myth fans who refused to acknowledge the reality of the original myth or accept very reasonable criticism of their mediocre comic.
It's always interesting to see how the gods are viewed from people in the mainstream as a pagan, who actually believes in these gods and worships some of them (though hades and persephone aren't part of the gods I actively worship). Most of us see the myths of metaphorical- in this case, a metaphor for the changing of the seasons and arguably a metaphor for the transition from childhood to adulthood, and reflections of the society and the people who wrote them down. They aren't literally things that the gods have done. So it's kinda frustrating to see people fall into either seeing gods like Hades as a evil villain or changing and manipulating the story into something it historically wasn't. (though I'm not against retellings, just people falsely saying their version is historical.) When to me and many other modern pagans, neither of these things are the truth. I also love what you say about how myths are allowed to change, but we should still understand what they were and what they meant to the people that originally told them!
In the "Star Wars" movies the sound of exploding spaceships can be "heard" in the emptiness of space. It's interesting to have that wrongness pointed out once or twice, but becomes tedium when turned into the focus of discussion. Violence against women is absent of almost any restraints in Greek Mythology. But when telling the Greek Myths it's almost always more interesting to just tell the story. Because telling these ancient stories is not an approval of that violence. "...Aren't the Cute Couple..."? I say we follow the advice of another Homer and "let the baby have his bottle". Let them continue imagining Hades & Persephone to be a Classical version of Harry & Meghan. Feminist re-imaginings
e-tellings of Greek Myths in inept hands is about as fun as listening to "Christian Rock"!