😈 I love the emphasis on Demeter! I always read this myth as a deeply emotional exploration into the mother-daughter dynamic, not a spicy sex story between Persephone and Hades at all! Your videos are so fabulous. Thank you for the great content!
Thank you so much for respecting and faithfully presenting the myth (and the importance of Demeter) as it pertained to the Eleusinian Mysteries. So many forget that this wasn’t just a story, it was the basis of a religious festival and religious beliefs. I also appreciate your careful attention to historical context - it’s so important and inextricable from the understanding of the myths. One interesting thing I’ve heard about the pomegranate seeds - eating them may have been symbolic for accepting hospitality, which is what bound Persephone’s fate. Edited to add: The bit I wrote about pomegranate seeds came from Dr. Ellie Mackin-Roberts, who posts informative videos on Tiktok regarding Ancient Greek religion, culture, and history (which is her expertise).
I always thought that Persephone eating the pomegranate seeds (symbols of fertility) meant that she was pregnant. I know a lot of ancient cultures believed that a marriage was only permanent once there was a child - before that, the girl could return to her family without issue in a sort of annulment.
It's an interesting idea. The pomegranate definitely had this type of symbolism, as well as pertaining to marriage I believe. Personally, I think this has much more to do with the Greek idea of hospitality as a divine right and duty. Perversions of hospitality often cause chaos. Think of Circe transforming the sailors into pigs with a meal, the island of the lotus eaters, etc. This idea of like "accepting one's hospitality and being bound to them" is a pretty common theme. We can also see other examples of a perversion of hospitality in the "abduction" of Helen by Paris, the suitors refusing to leave in the Odyssey, etc. It's also basically the entire beginning of the Argonautica, with Jason (a guest of the King) steals away with Medea, who ends up murdering her brother in the process.
@@Theater00jock I was thinking about the hospitality rules too. Listened to a lecture series long ago that went on and on about how Xenia was like THE most important element of all Greek society. I could totally see the argument going “you accepted his food, that means it officially wasn’t a kidnapping and now you have to stay.”
Wait. If a pomegranate is a symbol of fertility (25:55) then maybe Persephone eating pomegranate seeds could be symbolic of Hades getting her pregnant?! Myths are so interesting: there's so many ways to interpret them. Thank you for this fascinating deep dive into Demeter's important role in this myth.
Hi, I don’t know if you will see this but here it goes. I’ve stumbled upon your channel a couple weeks ago, and let me tell you, I WISH I FOUND YOU SOONER… I love your videos soooo much. You always seem to go so in depth with your videos and I truly appreciate you and your hard work and dedication. Please keep up the good work
I have always and truly adored your videos on Roman and Ancient Greek culture, as well as other topics! You are so eloquent, like a Muse! May you have a prosperous life and a great day!
On H&P: the romanticizarion of that relationship is telling of the fact that few of us have experienced WINTER or famine On the lesser mysteries; as an archaeoreligionist I delight on the legend that they were instituted by Demeter as a favor to Heracles (a non Athenian, which meant he would otherwise not be allowed the greater mysteries) for the sake of his 12th labor. Given that the Iliad mentions Heracles wounding The Cthonic Zeus... It feels emotionally sound that Hercules wounding Pluto would make Demeter "yes I like you, here's how you can survive visiting my daughter" Also: ergot has been speculated but, must be pointed out that it is not necessary for the transcendental altered consciousness. Fasting, sleeplessness, music, & dancing are more than sufficient for visions
I enjoyed this video - thanks for all the research you put into it! 😊 Out of curiosity, have you considered doing a video on the goddess Hekate? She has some ties into the Demeter and Persephone mythology you might find very interesting if you didn't already know. 😁 Looking forward to seeing your second Demeter vid soon!
It is an interesting reading of the myth of Hades and Persephone and it definitely attracts attention to things I have not thought about (like that it is also a story of the mother's suffering). Good research work and I will definitely follow your channel in the future. I am however a bit sceptic to applying modern standards in judging an ancient myth (it is a great mental exercise, I agree but historical context is important). While I do not approve how women were treated in Ancient Greece, it is a historical fact Ancient Greece was a very patriarchal society. The girl's consent for a marriage was a non-issue as long as her parents (mostly the father) had agreed. And yes, women were often unhappy about their match and the experience was traumatic (and understandably so). However, for the standards of the time and the Olympian gods, the relationship of Hades and Persephone was a very functional one ( the myth even points out Persephone fell in love with Hades, Persephone grew from a girl to a wife and even the Queen of the Underworld and etc. ).
The Demeter, Persephone and Hades mythology is one of my favorites. And I can't wait for your vid about the devil! I'm sure it will be just as splendid as yourself, lady. 🌈❤️
😈 😈 😈 Awesome video! I have always felt weird that Demeter was sidelined in the narrative of this myth in modern times. Thank you for bringing her back into the centre of the story :)
😈 As somebody obsessed with ancient and neolithic fertility cults, I appreciated the groundwork of Demeter and the nod to possibilities she may have had pre-grecian origins, much like Cybele
Thank you so much for doing this whole topic! Especially talking about Demeter, please don’t forget “BAUBO /lambe” - she plays one of the key rules in the myth but has been strangely forgotten by most of the Christian translators… But she is highly entertaining and empowering feminist pleasure!
I am sure as a child I was told that Persephone herself was the cause of the seasons' change and nothing to do with Dementia. Also was the triumvirate of goddesses you mentioned be the personification of the Mediterranean seasons 😈
Bravo!👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 Very interesting and informative! [To bad I started with the video after this and have finally gotten to the Mother video..] I'll be checking out more...😈👍🏾
I would absolutely love a video about the devil! 😈I also like learning about the lesser-known gods and goddesses. We always hear about Zeus but rarely any of the other Olympic gods.
😈 This was a really interesting video! And Demeter deserves better, especially as climate change is threatening food production and that industrial farming has caused food to be produced forcibly (ie less need to let the fields lie fallow and less dependance on rain etc. not only bad of course because more food can be produced but at an increasing cost to the natural world & it’s pushing the planetary boundaries and that’s not even getting into meat/egg/dairy production)
Your pronunciation of Demeter was throwing me off, and I was wondering, "Why is she pronouncing it like day-may-tar? Isn't it de-ME-ter?" Because that's how I've always pronounced it and then 9 Google the Greek and I saw all the etas (δημητηρ) and I was like; damn, she right. 😅
I think it definitely depends on the version - i’ve heard one where Hecate was involved, but she just heard Persephone getting kidnapped and told Demeter
😈 i probably wouldn’t have watched this video if it hadn’t been about Demeter. As a member of her cult I have very little interest in Hades. This video was intriguing and I can’t wait to watch the rest in the series 😈
So nice to see someone actually digging deep in the story for once rather than just... Drenching it in Romanticism. Allways love your videos so well researched can't wait for the next!
You are so right! Demeter deserves so much more from us! I am really excited to start this video, and care very little for the actual Hades and Persephone part of their story lol.
Many young girls see hades as the rich emo older man that can be changed by a young girl. I do not like that people try to frame the story as empowering romance when he kidnapped her and she had to ve his queen.
As much as I enjoy this video, it makes so much sense that Hades and Persephone are seen as an ideal romantic pairing. 1) Hades, as Greek Gods go, Hades is the least awful to his wife; the bar is LITERALLY in hell. The powerful feelings of dislike towards Hades, especially in comparison to his cohorts (all a group of inbred megalomaniacs), are due to Christianisation and his association with the devil, which Hades' is not. 1.5) Let's compare him to the brother mentioned in this video. Hades sought permission from her father. He technically took the right course of action, as gross and misogynistic as it is. Then took the wrong one by snatching her away with said father's okay. Then again, can we be surprised, considering Zeus was full-on r-wording, disguising himself and peeing on other beings to impregnate them, leaving them to deal with the consequences. Once again, bar hell. 2) Persephone's existence also predates Hades. Persephone and Demeter exist in Mycenean culture as the goddesses of the underworld. The Eleusian myth barely mentions Hades and Persephone's descent to hell and return, which is of her own volition. I've always seen the Homeric myth of the kidnap as Persephone's rightful return to her throne, albeit as a consort. This is definitely the best we'll get from Homer 3) Women especially gravitate towards the pairing due to Persephone's elevation of power. In the Homeric hymns, Persephone goes from being 'Kore' meaning maiden, to 'Persephone' meaning 'the bringer of death', queen of the underworld who has so feared humans speak of her in euphemisms. Something is appealing about her power being outside the traditionally feminine, and what a transformation from fertility to death. 4) OSP discuss all the above in their Hades and Persephone video, which is a pretty cool accompaniment to this video.
To be fair I don’t think many of the people romanticizing Hades and Persephone are literally interpreting her abduction as romantic, rather they’re telling a different version of the story. One where Persephone goes willingly and perhaps an overprotective Demeter can’t accept that. Though I understand the appeal, it is a pretty oversaturated interpretation at this point so I would like to see more of the version where Demeter is saving her daughter utilized in media today. But you can’t really stop these myths from continuing to be living, changing, stories that belong to everyone and that will always have multiple versions old and new. And I wonder if one reason the romantic version developed is because Persephone stays with Hades. Not because she “chose” to stay but in the traditional version she is stuck with Hades for part of the year, that’s not really a happy ending if you want to tell an empowering story about a mother saving her daughter. I don’t think the Ancient Greek men really cared that much about Persephone’s abduction (or necessarily even saw Hades as being in the wrong) but to a modern audience that ending is easier to sit with if Persephone actually wants to be with Hades for the times she’s there.
It is interesting to note that there is the same story about baby burning Demeter identical to one of Isis, who, looking for her husband body parts became a royal nannie, burned the royal child in order to make him an immortal and getting upset about not getting to finish the ritual!
I was going to make that comment myself. I hadn't heard about Demeter's story other than that she gets sad when her daughter has to return to the underworld. This is really fascinating that Egyptian and Greek mythologies are intertwined like that because of the connection between the two cultures. I think I read somewhere that Isis gets fused with many of the Greek goddesses such as Demeter. I am definitely going to add this to the world mythology class that I teach.
I think possibly my favourite part of the "Hades/Persephone myth" is that... as far as scholarship can tell Hades can't have originally been in it? From what I understand, Persephone and Demeter seem to be much older deities than Hades, dating back to the days of Mycenae and linear B, in light of which it becomes even more wild that Hades became such a focus of the myth later on. Can't wait for the rest of this series!😈
the only thing hades really has to do with the myth is him slotting into the thematic role of 'ruler of the dead' so that persephone can fufill the role of 'queen of the dead'. other than that, not a lot of (original) versions of the myth focuses on him. the focus is always on demeter and persephone
One thing that I hope you are able to explore is how Demeter specifically, and the female Olympians broadly, have a recurrent allusion to human sacrifice. Demeter passes the boy child through the flames to “make him immortal”, Thetis (a Nereid who has interesting parallels with Demeter and was possibly an early divinity in archaic Greece) dips her son Achilles in the river Styx “to make him immortal”. Demeter is also the only Olympian who eats Pelops, the son killed & served to the gods by Tantalus. Talking about the Eleusinian Mysteries, I suspect that they revolved around a symbolic sacrifice/dedication of a “magical youth” to Demeter, who would either receive the approval of the Goddess (as did Iacchus) or not (as did Demophon).
"Don't kidnap your wife, even if her dad tells you too" is a good rule, in general. Demeter, honestly, doesn't show up a lot outside of this myth and a few small other stories, at least when I was first was studying mythology. Which is a shame, given her prominence in older stories, especially with hints from the Mycenaean stories that have been translated. Not as bad as Hestia, but shows a bit of the misogyny in the ancient Greek world...
Can I suggest you do a video on minor but no less important deities of Greek mythology like the three Fates/Moirai and the three Graces?Charites? The former were three sisters, the personification of destiny: Clotho (the spinner), Lachesis (the Alloter), and Atropos (the unturnable and also of death). Sometimes, they were even considered to be above gods. Tha latter were Aglaea (Splendor), Euphrosyne (Mirth), and Thalia (Good Cheer) and they were strangely linked to the underworld as well, but they were the patrons of pleasure in life as play, amusement, rest, happiness, relaxation.
I've always been bothered by how modern readers romanticize a myth about a woman being kidnapped and forced to marry her abductor, followed by being set with an arbitrary rule forcing her to intermittently stay with him forever. Io Demeter! Also: 😈
Hi! I am interested in a few questions about the Eleusinian mysteries. Question 1: At what time of the year did Hades kidnap Cora? In the myth of Demeter it is mentioned that Cora was picking flowers in the meadow and her attention was attracted by a daffodil. But these are spring flowers! So the kidnapping could have taken place in the spring? So, Cora (Persephone) had to spend her time in Hades in summer? That is, the burial of grain in the fall in the ground is not Persephone's sending to Hades, but on the contrary - reunion with her mother Demeter? Question 2: What could the Anaktoron, a small structure inside the temple of Telesterion, have been? Could it have been an oven for baking bread? After all, there are mentions that a hole was made in the roof of Telesterion for the flames to escape. Besides, the story of Demeter's baking of the little prince Demophontes is remarkable. The goddess wanted to make him immortal, but his mother interrupted the sacrament. So, Demeter chose another, more difficult way for mankind - through farming, growing grains and baking bread. Through the eating of bread there is communion with the body of the goddess Persephone. And those of mortals who have tasted the god become immortal. Question 3: Who is Brimos? During the final scenes of the mysteries, the Hierophant exclaims: "Brimo has given birth to Brimos!". That is, the Mighty One gave birth to the Mighty One. Some researchers believe that it could be Dionysus. But as a proof of the miracle to the participants of the mysteries the hierophant presented the wheat ear! How can it be connected with Dionysus?
I don't know how to make a Devil emoji. Is my computer just that old? Based on the comment section, I'm making an assumption here that the answer is, "Yes." Chrome likes to tell me to get an upgrade every time I open it. I've always been fascinated by the story of Hades and Persephone. The questionable relations aside and even the r-worded aspect of the myth, I recently learned the marriage was otherwise pretty stable. I'm not sure how it managed to be "stable," but in comparison to the rest of the Greek gods, I guess Hades is just surprisingly not as bad. In contrast with Zeus especially, I read that Hades was at least loyal to Persephone. Though, in some versions of the myth, there was that "one time," but I never know which version of the myth is considered the official version. I'm looking forward to the other parts. Also, agreed. Demeter deserves more respect. If your child was suddenly taken away from you, wouldn't any normal parent be upset about it? Motherhood is a hard job and not every woman is suited for it. Clearly, Demeter has her priorities in check. I'd be looking for my daughter too if she suddenly went missing.
👹 excellent video! Very much looking forward to the next two. I hate the erasure of Ceres/Demeter in modern retellings. She was such a vital figure in the ancient world, and focusing on the Pluto/Proserpina side of things just completely skews purpose of this myth.
You've probably seen this but I was struck reading Tolkien's lecture notes included in his translation of Beowulf because he theorized that the origins of the Beowulf legend lie in a pre-viking age where agricultural deities were supreme over the martial deities of Thor and Odin. I know that's a bit of a tangent but it's an interesting connection between Beowulf and Demeter.
Im really happy to have found this channel agai, last time was about that unpleasent one thinking Rome was a catholic inside job or something like that..Was it bears?.. Anyway amazing to be back! Also with all due respect.. You got some sexy female David Attenborough-voice going on, and you are a joy to listen to! Ever considered doing audiobook reedings? ^^ Cheers from a new sub! 😈
Did the worshippers of Demeter _know_ that bee society was centred around a queen? Aristotle referred to the queen as a king, and this practice was followed by Europeans all the way until the early modern era, changing in English only in 1609. ETA: 😈
What a fantastic video! Loved every minute of it 💜 Demeter is one of my favourite goddesses and I’ve always found her grief at Persephone’s abduction heartbreaking, but also deeply relatable for anyone who has lost a loved one. Can’t wait for the next videos 😊😈👹
😈👹💯. I was wondering how Hecate was important to the abduction of Persephone? I've never understood why she was involved. I love your work. Would you ever think about doing something on great ancient women; like Fulvia and Hortensia? I feel it's a shame they were left out of our primary education.
The Classics nerd is me squeed when this vid came up in my feed! I can't wait to watch the entire series! (And you're right, Demeter deserves much better attention -- and admiration -- for this story than she gets!) 💞💞
😈😈😈😈😈😈😈 It is a shame how much patriarchy has corrupted these myths and the modern culture surrounding it. Thank you for giving Demeter such focus. I love your channel !!
Im so excited for demeter being recentered in this myth, super pumped to watch the video! Edit: 😈😈 super excited for the rest of videos around this myth
For the longest time, I have always been fascinated with Persephone. I think it's fascinating that she is seen as both the goddess of spring and simultaneously also a goddess so feared in the earliest days of pre-Greek history that she might've been the original goddess of death. Hades is so perfect for her and I love that they have such a stable marriage in the mythological canon. I am also a big fan of Hadestown, though, and that musical made me feel ALL of the things. Am I gonna assume that we'll hear about Orpheus next time?
@@CinziaDuBois i read some articles that Said that Pluto from Claudian De Raptu Proserpinae is the basis for creation of Lucifer from paradise lost ( Jhon Milton), and this version of Lucifer is the first badboy of modern literature
11:35 No, I don't think the existence of the Equator and Southern Hemisphere shatters the myth. It just means I come from Hell 🤟🏼😆. By the way, I loved your "no way in hell" pun.
this myth had me in a chokehold recently, this was such a good overview of everything, and i look forward to the series.. thanks for uploading again!! 😈 :]
😈this myth is the reason I fell in love with Classics. I found a book on mythology at my local library when I was six, and this was the myth that spoke to me. While I was interested in Demeter's part in the story, I was most transfixed on the underworld and the symbolism of the pomegranate. I don't recall having much interest in Hades' role in the story. I am excited to see you sink your teeth into this myth.
Please dont project your ideals onto hades... I dont believe its implied he ever raped persephone.... He was a lil sketchy in his approach but rape is a strong word.....
Kidnapping a person and having sex with that person afterwards IS rape. The kidnapping portion of the story immediately creates a power dynamic which means anything that takes place after that is not consensual. That is rape. A grown man having sex with a 13-14 year old girl is rape. That's not a modern concept, it's not woke idealism - it's a human one.
@@CinziaDuBois Most myths say "young" but she stays this age eternally... so god timelines arent exactly like ours... its a projection. But your right it was rape. I just wish you kept it purely historical....
the first story I saw about persephone implied that persephone was a rebellious woman who wanted to explore the world but her mother believed that she should stay at home because good girls don't explore, basically the mother didn't want to accept that her daughter had As a grown up I only heard the story of Persephone's kidnapping and rape, I like my first version better because at least Persephone has a mind of her own, trying to escape her mother and wanting to explore the world Uncle Hades invited her to explore the underworld and she accepted, knowing now the version of the rape I'm even afraid of the invitation, the part about her being tricked into eating the pomegranate was present in the first version I saw but now that I learned Despina's story I think that Persephone ate the pomegranate seeds to get away from her mother, an idea that was strengthened when I heard a version where Demeter asked the gods of love to stay away from Persephone because she wanted her daughter to remain a virgin. I'm on the side of persephone's decisions because I do too and I have a dominant mother, I don't know if she loves me or not but whenever things aren't the way she wants, the best example of that is her wanting me to have the best grades from school, which is impossible because I have dyslexia and Asperger's, two neuropsychological problems that rarely help academic success, but in her opinion these are excuses for not making an effort. it doesn't matter what the teachers say about the work I do for my mother, on a scale of 1 to 5 a 5 is what she wants and everything else is excuses from a son who doesn't work for his own will.
I detest the persephone rape myth, and wonder what kind of monster wrote such a story, but apparently I'm not the only one who thinks this way, in part because enough is enough with Neptune and Zeus as mass rapists and adulterers.
You are just projecting your own mommy issues in a 3000 years old story about a society where girls were sold off like cattle and the story of a mother fighting to see her mother against the wirst of the patriarchy. Also, the story of the Rape of Persephone was someone dark fantasy, it was based in what women had to suffer in real life in ancient times.
If I learned anything from Overly Sarcastic Productions, it's that PERSEPHONE was the scary one, not Hades. If I've EXTRAPOLATED anything from that very same video, it's that Hades and Persephone were already married at the time that this story takes place, and some poor mortal simply happened to witness their kinky roleplay scenario, and wildly misinterpreted it.
Another OSP fan! Red's perspective about the "kidnapping" was interesting, and like she said, knowing more about the original stuff actually makes the story less creepy. Personally, my extrapolation was that Persephone took charge of the shades and spirits of the underworld, while Hades maintained the structure itself. Hence why it was the "House of Hades" but when people like Odysseus or Aeneas wanted to contact a specific shade, they had to petition Persephone.
In re: mythic origins, have you seen Minoan Kingship and the Solar Goddess by Nanno Marinatos? She describes a cultural “koine” throughout the Bronze Age eastern Mediterranean.
I could see Demeter blasting through the underworld ala Layla from Sky High attacks the cheerleaders, or just any girl boss moment Poison Ivy from DC has.
😈 I am absurdly fascinated with the demonization of polytheistic Gods. Loki is another one that was turned into a Devil analog. In Norse Mythology Loki was the God of Mischief and also may have had something to do with Fire and the Hearth. But Christians took the concept of mischief and warped it from innocent fun, jokes, etc into lies and evil. It also doesn't help that Christian mythology treats the snake as a Devil analog, which probably aided the Demonization of both Hades and Loki, both of whom had some link to snakes. Another video I'd love to see is really any video on Irish Mythology and specifically the Pagan Goddess Brigid, who was originally one of the most important deities. In an attempt to convert the Irish, the Christians turned her from a goddess to a saint and eventually the patriarchal Christian Church suppressed Saint Brigid as the Patron Saint of Ireland and pushed Saint Patrick into the spotlight. I'm absolutely fascinated by this topic because of the fact that I share a name with the Goddess/Saint.
I don't mind modern perspectives of myth, I think its really interesting, though I do think we should have an understanding of the original stories. 😈 But I personally LOVE the modern take on this myth where Persephone has more agency and wants to be with Hades. But I also feel that Demeter should be included as well and see her as more of an overprotective parent in a modern twist on the myth
Personally I feel no matter which God's and goddess's you serve matters. The one true God, the God of all creation is still those beings. Just serve the light and not darkness and i believe all will be well. And eventually the truth of it will be revealed to you. I serve only One God and they have no name known to mortal men, yet I acknowledge many for they do exist. People became stagnant with their spiritual growth and connection to nature which has made them blind to what is what.
But Aphrodite was originally associated with war as well. Why she was embraced by the Spartans. And was only acceptable to Athenians and other Greeks once her warrior personality was removed.
😈 I love the emphasis on Demeter! I always read this myth as a deeply emotional exploration into the mother-daughter dynamic, not a spicy sex story between Persephone and Hades at all! Your videos are so fabulous. Thank you for the great content!
Thank you so much! Glad you enjoyed it (:
Thank you so much for respecting and faithfully presenting the myth (and the importance of Demeter) as it pertained to the Eleusinian Mysteries. So many forget that this wasn’t just a story, it was the basis of a religious festival and religious beliefs. I also appreciate your careful attention to historical context - it’s so important and inextricable from the understanding of the myths.
One interesting thing I’ve heard about the pomegranate seeds - eating them may have been symbolic for accepting hospitality, which is what bound Persephone’s fate.
Edited to add: The bit I wrote about pomegranate seeds came from Dr. Ellie Mackin-Roberts, who posts informative videos on Tiktok regarding Ancient Greek religion, culture, and history (which is her expertise).
Shout out to modern hellenistic polytheism!
I always thought that Persephone eating the pomegranate seeds (symbols of fertility) meant that she was pregnant. I know a lot of ancient cultures believed that a marriage was only permanent once there was a child - before that, the girl could return to her family without issue in a sort of annulment.
It's an interesting idea. The pomegranate definitely had this type of symbolism, as well as pertaining to marriage I believe. Personally, I think this has much more to do with the Greek idea of hospitality as a divine right and duty. Perversions of hospitality often cause chaos. Think of Circe transforming the sailors into pigs with a meal, the island of the lotus eaters, etc. This idea of like "accepting one's hospitality and being bound to them" is a pretty common theme. We can also see other examples of a perversion of hospitality in the "abduction" of Helen by Paris, the suitors refusing to leave in the Odyssey, etc. It's also basically the entire beginning of the Argonautica, with Jason (a guest of the King) steals away with Medea, who ends up murdering her brother in the process.
@@Theater00jock I was thinking about the hospitality rules too. Listened to a lecture series long ago that went on and on about how Xenia was like THE most important element of all Greek society. I could totally see the argument going “you accepted his food, that means it officially wasn’t a kidnapping and now you have to stay.”
Wait. If a pomegranate is a symbol of fertility (25:55) then maybe Persephone eating pomegranate seeds could be symbolic of Hades getting her pregnant?! Myths are so interesting: there's so many ways to interpret them. Thank you for this fascinating deep dive into Demeter's important role in this myth.
Hi, I don’t know if you will see this but here it goes. I’ve stumbled upon your channel a couple weeks ago, and let me tell you, I WISH I FOUND YOU SOONER… I love your videos soooo much. You always seem to go so in depth with your videos and I truly appreciate you and your hard work and dedication. Please keep up the good work
I have always and truly adored your videos on Roman and Ancient Greek culture, as well as other topics! You are so eloquent, like a Muse! May you have a prosperous life and a great day!
On H&P: the romanticizarion of that relationship is telling of the fact that few of us have experienced WINTER or famine
On the lesser mysteries; as an archaeoreligionist I delight on the legend that they were instituted by Demeter as a favor to Heracles (a non Athenian, which meant he would otherwise not be allowed the greater mysteries) for the sake of his 12th labor.
Given that the Iliad mentions Heracles wounding The Cthonic Zeus... It feels emotionally sound that Hercules wounding Pluto would make Demeter "yes I like you, here's how you can survive visiting my daughter"
Also: ergot has been speculated but, must be pointed out that it is not necessary for the transcendental altered consciousness. Fasting, sleeplessness, music, & dancing are more than sufficient for visions
I find it so any that people focus on the hades and persephone and make demeter the villian.
I enjoyed this video - thanks for all the research you put into it! 😊 Out of curiosity, have you considered doing a video on the goddess Hekate? She has some ties into the Demeter and Persephone mythology you might find very interesting if you didn't already know. 😁 Looking forward to seeing your second Demeter vid soon!
It is an interesting reading of the myth of Hades and Persephone and it definitely attracts attention to things I have not thought about (like that it is also a story of the mother's suffering). Good research work and I will definitely follow your channel in the future. I am however a bit sceptic to applying modern standards in judging an ancient myth (it is a great mental exercise, I agree but historical context is important).
While I do not approve how women were treated in Ancient Greece, it is a historical fact Ancient Greece was a very patriarchal society. The girl's consent for a marriage was a non-issue as long as her parents (mostly the father) had agreed. And yes, women were often unhappy about their match and the experience was traumatic (and understandably so). However, for the standards of the time and the Olympian gods, the relationship of Hades and Persephone was a very functional one ( the myth even points out Persephone fell in love with Hades, Persephone grew from a girl to a wife and even the Queen of the Underworld and etc. ).
The Demeter, Persephone and Hades mythology is one of my favorites. And I can't wait for your vid about the devil! I'm sure it will be just as splendid as yourself, lady. 🌈❤️
😈 😈 😈 Awesome video! I have always felt weird that Demeter was sidelined in the narrative of this myth in modern times. Thank you for bringing her back into the centre of the story :)
this is fire!
Thanks for this neat Demeter video!
Glad you liked it!
Thank you. Much appreciated.
Thank you for this ✨💞💝🌹
👍👍I really, really enjoyed this one, excited for more! 😈😃
Great video! Can’t wait for the rest of the series 😈
What about Baubo? Surely she is the third term of the daughter (Kore, the girl)/ mother (Demeter - Da Mother) / crone triple goddess.
😈 As somebody obsessed with ancient and neolithic fertility cults, I appreciated the groundwork of Demeter and the nod to possibilities she may have had pre-grecian origins, much like Cybele
Fantastic video, looking forward to the next one! 😈
😈 I wish every day we had more information about the rites of the Eleusinian Mysteries
Thank you so much for doing this whole topic!
Especially talking about Demeter, please don’t forget “BAUBO /lambe” - she plays one of the key rules in the myth but has been strangely forgotten by most of the Christian translators…
But she is highly entertaining and empowering feminist pleasure!
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Love to listen to everything you come up with. Of course I'm on board with a devil episode!😈
Thank you ❤
Thanks!
I am sure as a child I was told that Persephone herself was the cause of the seasons' change and nothing to do with Dementia. Also was the triumvirate of goddesses you mentioned be the personification of the Mediterranean seasons 😈
Minor note, but Alaricus was probably pronounced *Alareiks, with the same /ei/ vowel as in see.
😈😊 Great video, I've heard the versions of this myth where Demeter is essentially a footnote
Thank you!
Bravo!👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾 Very interesting and informative! [To bad I started with the video after this and have finally gotten to the Mother video..] I'll be checking out more...😈👍🏾
I would absolutely love a video about the devil! 😈I also like learning about the lesser-known gods and goddesses. We always hear about Zeus but rarely any of the other Olympic gods.
I hadn't actually known why the symbol healing was the snake until this, thanks so much for your work on these. 😈
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This was a really interesting video! And Demeter deserves better, especially as climate change is threatening food production and that industrial farming has caused food to be produced forcibly (ie less need to let the fields lie fallow and less dependance on rain etc. not only bad of course because more food can be produced but at an increasing cost to the natural world & it’s pushing the planetary boundaries and that’s not even getting into meat/egg/dairy production)
👿 interesting video. Thanks!
You're welcome
Congratulations, you've made it into my upcoming RPG video game !
Whaaaaaa? :O
@@CinziaDuBois My links keep being deleted, you will have to drop me an email address
Such a great video I love learning.❤
Glad you enjoyed it!
😈 compelling as ever, thank you
😈 Great video, & excited for the rest of this series!
Thank you!
Your pronunciation of Demeter was throwing me off, and I was wondering, "Why is she pronouncing it like day-may-tar? Isn't it de-ME-ter?" Because that's how I've always pronounced it and then 9 Google the Greek and I saw all the etas (δημητηρ) and I was like; damn, she right. 😅
I thought Hecate helped find Persephone with her torch.
I think it definitely depends on the version - i’ve heard one where Hecate was involved, but she just heard Persephone getting kidnapped and told Demeter
😈 i probably wouldn’t have watched this video if it hadn’t been about Demeter. As a member of her cult I have very little interest in Hades. This video was intriguing and I can’t wait to watch the rest in the series 😈
😈 awesome vid!
First OSP uploaded, now you? Is it my birthday or something?
Love your videos😈
Thank you ❤
👿 more grumpy than cute, oh well
😈😈😈😈 Love this series 💞
Just need to leave this one 😈here.
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I think a story of a mother fighting for her young daughter from kidnapping forced marriage. Get your baby from this twisted deal!
So nice to see someone actually digging deep in the story for once rather than just... Drenching it in Romanticism. Allways love your videos so well researched can't wait for the next!
Thank you ❤
@@CinziaDuBois Hello. I wrote a play based on the Hymm to Demeter. You wanna read?? 😁
You are so right! Demeter deserves so much more from us! I am really excited to start this video, and care very little for the actual Hades and Persephone part of their story lol.
I always wondered why Persephone and hades were portrayed as an ideal romantic pairing when HE LITTERALY ABDUCTED HER. 👿
Many young girls see hades as the rich emo older man that can be changed by a young girl. I do not like that people try to frame the story as empowering romance when he kidnapped her and she had to ve his queen.
@@sweetnova3084 well, this is the intire point of the Cult of Persephone in Locri
As much as I enjoy this video, it makes so much sense that Hades and Persephone are seen as an ideal romantic pairing.
1) Hades, as Greek Gods go, Hades is the least awful to his wife; the bar is LITERALLY in hell. The powerful feelings of dislike towards Hades, especially in comparison to his cohorts (all a group of inbred megalomaniacs), are due to Christianisation and his association with the devil, which Hades' is not.
1.5) Let's compare him to the brother mentioned in this video. Hades sought permission from her father. He technically took the right course of action, as gross and misogynistic as it is. Then took the wrong one by snatching her away with said father's okay. Then again, can we be surprised, considering Zeus was full-on r-wording, disguising himself and peeing on other beings to impregnate them, leaving them to deal with the consequences. Once again, bar hell.
2) Persephone's existence also predates Hades. Persephone and Demeter exist in Mycenean culture as the goddesses of the underworld. The Eleusian myth barely mentions Hades and Persephone's descent to hell and return, which is of her own volition. I've always seen the Homeric myth of the kidnap as Persephone's rightful return to her throne, albeit as a consort. This is definitely the best we'll get from Homer
3) Women especially gravitate towards the pairing due to Persephone's elevation of power. In the Homeric hymns, Persephone goes from being 'Kore' meaning maiden, to 'Persephone' meaning 'the bringer of death', queen of the underworld who has so feared humans speak of her in euphemisms. Something is appealing about her power being outside the traditionally feminine, and what a transformation from fertility to death.
4) OSP discuss all the above in their Hades and Persephone video, which is a pretty cool accompaniment to this video.
And he’s her double uncle…
To be fair I don’t think many of the people romanticizing Hades and Persephone are literally interpreting her abduction as romantic, rather they’re telling a different version of the story. One where Persephone goes willingly and perhaps an overprotective Demeter can’t accept that. Though I understand the appeal, it is a pretty oversaturated interpretation at this point so I would like to see more of the version where Demeter is saving her daughter utilized in media today. But you can’t really stop these myths from continuing to be living, changing, stories that belong to everyone and that will always have multiple versions old and new.
And I wonder if one reason the romantic version developed is because Persephone stays with Hades. Not because she “chose” to stay but in the traditional version she is stuck with Hades for part of the year, that’s not really a happy ending if you want to tell an empowering story about a mother saving her daughter. I don’t think the Ancient Greek men really cared that much about Persephone’s abduction (or necessarily even saw Hades as being in the wrong) but to a modern audience that ending is easier to sit with if Persephone actually wants to be with Hades for the times she’s there.
It is interesting to note that there is the same story about baby burning Demeter identical to one of Isis, who, looking for her husband body parts became a royal nannie, burned the royal child in order to make him an immortal and getting upset about not getting to finish the ritual!
I was going to make that comment myself. I hadn't heard about Demeter's story other than that she gets sad when her daughter has to return to the underworld. This is really fascinating that Egyptian and Greek mythologies are intertwined like that because of the connection between the two cultures. I think I read somewhere that Isis gets fused with many of the Greek goddesses such as Demeter. I am definitely going to add this to the world mythology class that I teach.
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I heard the same Isis story! I also remember a scorpion being involved. @NathalieO
I think possibly my favourite part of the "Hades/Persephone myth" is that... as far as scholarship can tell Hades can't have originally been in it? From what I understand, Persephone and Demeter seem to be much older deities than Hades, dating back to the days of Mycenae and linear B, in light of which it becomes even more wild that Hades became such a focus of the myth later on. Can't wait for the rest of this series!😈
Yeah before it was Poseidon who ruled over the underworld and had ties to persephone and her mother
the only thing hades really has to do with the myth is him slotting into the thematic role of 'ruler of the dead' so that persephone can fufill the role of 'queen of the dead'. other than that, not a lot of (original) versions of the myth focuses on him. the focus is always on demeter and persephone
One thing that I hope you are able to explore is how Demeter specifically, and the female Olympians broadly, have a recurrent allusion to human sacrifice. Demeter passes the boy child through the flames to “make him immortal”, Thetis (a Nereid who has interesting parallels with Demeter and was possibly an early divinity in archaic Greece) dips her son Achilles in the river Styx “to make him immortal”. Demeter is also the only Olympian who eats Pelops, the son killed & served to the gods by Tantalus.
Talking about the Eleusinian Mysteries, I suspect that they revolved around a symbolic sacrifice/dedication of a “magical youth” to Demeter, who would either receive the approval of the Goddess (as did Iacchus) or not (as did Demophon).
"Don't kidnap your wife, even if her dad tells you too" is a good rule, in general.
Demeter, honestly, doesn't show up a lot outside of this myth and a few small other stories, at least when I was first was studying mythology. Which is a shame, given her prominence in older stories, especially with hints from the Mycenaean stories that have been translated. Not as bad as Hestia, but shows a bit of the misogyny in the ancient Greek world...
Can I suggest you do a video on minor but no less important deities of Greek mythology like the three Fates/Moirai and the three Graces?Charites?
The former were three sisters, the personification of destiny: Clotho (the spinner), Lachesis (the Alloter), and Atropos (the unturnable and also of death). Sometimes, they were even considered to be above gods.
Tha latter were Aglaea (Splendor), Euphrosyne (Mirth), and Thalia (Good Cheer) and they were strangely linked to the underworld as well, but they were the patrons of pleasure in life as play, amusement, rest, happiness, relaxation.
I've always been bothered by how modern readers romanticize a myth about a woman being kidnapped and forced to marry her abductor, followed by being set with an arbitrary rule forcing her to intermittently stay with him forever.
Io Demeter!
Also: 😈
Hi! I am interested in a few questions about the Eleusinian mysteries.
Question 1: At what time of the year did Hades kidnap Cora? In the myth of Demeter it is mentioned that Cora was picking flowers in the meadow and her attention was attracted by a daffodil. But these are spring flowers! So the kidnapping could have taken place in the spring? So, Cora (Persephone) had to spend her time in Hades in summer? That is, the burial of grain in the fall in the ground is not Persephone's sending to Hades, but on the contrary - reunion with her mother Demeter?
Question 2: What could the Anaktoron, a small structure inside the temple of Telesterion, have been? Could it have been an oven for baking bread? After all, there are mentions that a hole was made in the roof of Telesterion for the flames to escape. Besides, the story of Demeter's baking of the little prince Demophontes is remarkable. The goddess wanted to make him immortal, but his mother interrupted the sacrament. So, Demeter chose another, more difficult way for mankind - through farming, growing grains and baking bread. Through the eating of bread there is communion with the body of the goddess Persephone. And those of mortals who have tasted the god become immortal.
Question 3: Who is Brimos? During the final scenes of the mysteries, the Hierophant exclaims: "Brimo has given birth to Brimos!". That is, the Mighty One gave birth to the Mighty One. Some researchers believe that it could be Dionysus. But as a proof of the miracle to the participants of the mysteries the hierophant presented the wheat ear! How can it be connected with Dionysus?
I don't know how to make a Devil emoji. Is my computer just that old? Based on the comment section, I'm making an assumption here that the answer is, "Yes." Chrome likes to tell me to get an upgrade every time I open it.
I've always been fascinated by the story of Hades and Persephone. The questionable relations aside and even the r-worded aspect of the myth, I recently learned the marriage was otherwise pretty stable. I'm not sure how it managed to be "stable," but in comparison to the rest of the Greek gods, I guess Hades is just surprisingly not as bad. In contrast with Zeus especially, I read that Hades was at least loyal to Persephone. Though, in some versions of the myth, there was that "one time," but I never know which version of the myth is considered the official version. I'm looking forward to the other parts.
Also, agreed. Demeter deserves more respect. If your child was suddenly taken away from you, wouldn't any normal parent be upset about it? Motherhood is a hard job and not every woman is suited for it. Clearly, Demeter has her priorities in check. I'd be looking for my daughter too if she suddenly went missing.
👹 excellent video! Very much looking forward to the next two. I hate the erasure of Ceres/Demeter in modern retellings. She was such a vital figure in the ancient world, and focusing on the Pluto/Proserpina side of things just completely skews purpose of this myth.
Thank you!
You've probably seen this but I was struck reading Tolkien's lecture notes included in his translation of Beowulf because he theorized that the origins of the Beowulf legend lie in a pre-viking age where agricultural deities were supreme over the martial deities of Thor and Odin. I know that's a bit of a tangent but it's an interesting connection between Beowulf and Demeter.
I agree that Demeter deserves so much more. I always loved this tale because of Demeter going after her beloved daughter.
Im really happy to have found this channel agai, last time was about that unpleasent one thinking Rome was a catholic inside job or something like that..Was it bears?.. Anyway amazing to be back!
Also with all due respect.. You got some sexy female David Attenborough-voice going on, and you are a joy to listen to! Ever considered doing audiobook reedings? ^^
Cheers from a new sub! 😈
Did the worshippers of Demeter _know_ that bee society was centred around a queen? Aristotle referred to the queen as a king, and this practice was followed by Europeans all the way until the early modern era, changing in English only in 1609.
ETA: 😈
What a fantastic video! Loved every minute of it 💜 Demeter is one of my favourite goddesses and I’ve always found her grief at Persephone’s abduction heartbreaking, but also deeply relatable for anyone who has lost a loved one. Can’t wait for the next videos 😊😈👹
😈👹💯. I was wondering how Hecate was important to the abduction of Persephone? I've never understood why she was involved. I love your work. Would you ever think about doing something on great ancient women; like Fulvia and Hortensia? I feel it's a shame they were left out of our primary education.
The Classics nerd is me squeed when this vid came up in my feed! I can't wait to watch the entire series! (And you're right, Demeter deserves much better attention -- and admiration -- for this story than she gets!) 💞💞
11:40 Plot Twist: Hades is in Australia. It explains the spiders and Drop Bears.
These stories are based on the Anunnaki God's they did thing's like this all the time.
😈😈😈😈😈😈😈 It is a shame how much patriarchy has corrupted these myths and the modern culture surrounding it. Thank you for giving Demeter such focus. I love your channel !!
Im so excited for demeter being recentered in this myth, super pumped to watch the video!
Edit: 😈😈 super excited for the rest of videos around this myth
Demeter was definitely a rival to Zeus's throne
For the longest time, I have always been fascinated with Persephone. I think it's fascinating that she is seen as both the goddess of spring and simultaneously also a goddess so feared in the earliest days of pre-Greek history that she might've been the original goddess of death. Hades is so perfect for her and I love that they have such a stable marriage in the mythological canon.
I am also a big fan of Hadestown, though, and that musical made me feel ALL of the things. Am I gonna assume that we'll hear about Orpheus next time?
An Orpheus video is coming one day! It's on my list.
@@CinziaDuBois in Hades part, talk about the description of him in Plato Cratylus 403 and 404! Socrates is Hades biggest fanboy😂
@@CinziaDuBois the discription of Hades in Plato Cratylus 403 and 404 is closest thing in greek mythology of the judeo-christian God
@@CinziaDuBois and about Persephone from Magna Greece( Locri )! She his Biggest temple in the mediterraneo
@@CinziaDuBois i read some articles that Said that Pluto from Claudian De Raptu Proserpinae is the basis for creation of Lucifer from paradise lost ( Jhon Milton), and this version of Lucifer is the first badboy of modern literature
putting this into my "I need something to scratch my brain" playlist. looking forward to the rest of the series! 😈
😈 I would be interested in the devil video, and thank you for the deep dive into the Eluesinian Mysteries, since they tend to be skimmed over.
😈💀Kool topics. Can't wait
😈 hey, pretty good video! I really appreciate how far you dig into the historical reasoning behind the shift in the mythos, it's often glossed over
11:35 No, I don't think the existence of the Equator and Southern Hemisphere shatters the myth. It just means I come from Hell 🤟🏼😆.
By the way, I loved your "no way in hell" pun.
Demeter is under appreciated 😈😈😈
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I would love to see a video on the devil. Especially when he's represented like a sexy rebellious annoyance 😈
this myth had me in a chokehold recently, this was such a good overview of everything, and i look forward to the series.. thanks for uploading again!! 😈 :]
You're so welcome!
😈this myth is the reason I fell in love with Classics. I found a book on mythology at my local library when I was six, and this was the myth that spoke to me. While I was interested in Demeter's part in the story, I was most transfixed on the underworld and the symbolism of the pomegranate. I don't recall having much interest in Hades' role in the story. I am excited to see you sink your teeth into this myth.
Please dont project your ideals onto hades... I dont believe its implied he ever raped persephone.... He was a lil sketchy in his approach but rape is a strong word.....
Kidnapping a person and having sex with that person afterwards IS rape. The kidnapping portion of the story immediately creates a power dynamic which means anything that takes place after that is not consensual. That is rape. A grown man having sex with a 13-14 year old girl is rape. That's not a modern concept, it's not woke idealism - it's a human one.
@@CinziaDuBois Most myths say "young" but she stays this age eternally... so god timelines arent exactly like ours... its a projection. But your right it was rape. I just wish you kept it purely historical....
I always enjoy this story. I also like your sweater. I have one like it.
Thank you! 😊
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the first story I saw about persephone implied that persephone was a rebellious woman who wanted to explore the world but her mother believed that she should stay at home because good girls don't explore, basically the mother didn't want to accept that her daughter had As a grown up I only heard the story of Persephone's kidnapping and rape, I like my first version better because at least Persephone has a mind of her own, trying to escape her mother and wanting to explore the world Uncle Hades invited her to explore the underworld and she accepted, knowing now the version of the rape I'm even afraid of the invitation, the part about her being tricked into eating the pomegranate was present in the first version I saw but now that I learned Despina's story I think that Persephone ate the pomegranate seeds to get away from her mother, an idea that was strengthened when I heard a version where Demeter asked the gods of love to stay away from Persephone because she wanted her daughter to remain a virgin. I'm on the side of persephone's decisions because I do too and I have a dominant mother, I don't know if she loves me or not but whenever things aren't the way she wants, the best example of that is her wanting me to have the best grades from school, which is impossible because I have dyslexia and Asperger's, two neuropsychological problems that rarely help academic success, but in her opinion these are excuses for not making an effort.
it doesn't matter what the teachers say about the work I do for my mother, on a scale of 1 to 5 a 5 is what she wants and everything else is excuses from a son who doesn't work for his own will.
I detest the persephone rape myth, and wonder what kind of monster wrote such a story, but apparently I'm not the only one who thinks this way, in part because enough is enough with Neptune and Zeus as mass rapists and adulterers.
You are just projecting your own mommy issues in a 3000 years old story about a society where girls were sold off like cattle and the story of a mother fighting to see her mother against the wirst of the patriarchy.
Also, the story of the Rape of Persephone was someone dark fantasy, it was based in what women had to suffer in real life in ancient times.
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If I learned anything from Overly Sarcastic Productions, it's that PERSEPHONE was the scary one, not Hades.
If I've EXTRAPOLATED anything from that very same video, it's that Hades and Persephone were already married at the time that this story takes place, and some poor mortal simply happened to witness their kinky roleplay scenario, and wildly misinterpreted it.
Another OSP fan! Red's perspective about the "kidnapping" was interesting, and like she said, knowing more about the original stuff actually makes the story less creepy.
Personally, my extrapolation was that Persephone took charge of the shades and spirits of the underworld, while Hades maintained the structure itself. Hence why it was the "House of Hades" but when people like Odysseus or Aeneas wanted to contact a specific shade, they had to petition Persephone.
@@templarw20 Your story and my story are still quite compatible with each other. :>
😈So love the emphasis on the core (or should I say Kore...and Demeter🤓) of the myth! Thank you, Cinzia!
The underworld provides the spark for the seed to grow. Hence why it's eaten, and then given body in Persephone. The cycle has been observed.
😈 your videos are always so interesting, I loved hearing more about Demeter
In re: mythic origins, have you seen Minoan Kingship and the Solar Goddess by Nanno Marinatos? She describes a cultural “koine” throughout the Bronze Age eastern Mediterranean.
I could see Demeter blasting through the underworld ala Layla from Sky High attacks the cheerleaders, or just any girl boss moment Poison Ivy from DC has.
😈 I am absurdly fascinated with the demonization of polytheistic Gods. Loki is another one that was turned into a Devil analog. In Norse Mythology Loki was the God of Mischief and also may have had something to do with Fire and the Hearth. But Christians took the concept of mischief and warped it from innocent fun, jokes, etc into lies and evil. It also doesn't help that Christian mythology treats the snake as a Devil analog, which probably aided the Demonization of both Hades and Loki, both of whom had some link to snakes.
Another video I'd love to see is really any video on Irish Mythology and specifically the Pagan Goddess Brigid, who was originally one of the most important deities. In an attempt to convert the Irish, the Christians turned her from a goddess to a saint and eventually the patriarchal Christian Church suppressed Saint Brigid as the Patron Saint of Ireland and pushed Saint Patrick into the spotlight. I'm absolutely fascinated by this topic because of the fact that I share a name with the Goddess/Saint.
Somewhere I think I heard that the abduction bit isn't even in the original records 😒
😈👿🤘 It's interesting that these emojis don't come up with the words "devil" or "demon." Nothing at all comes up with those, I had to use "horns!"
I don't mind modern perspectives of myth, I think its really interesting, though I do think we should have an understanding of the original stories.
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But I personally LOVE the modern take on this myth where Persephone has more agency and wants to be with Hades. But I also feel that Demeter should be included as well and see her as more of an overprotective parent in a modern twist on the myth
Personally I feel no matter which God's and goddess's you serve matters. The one true God, the God of all creation is still those beings. Just serve the light and not darkness and i believe all will be well. And eventually the truth of it will be revealed to you. I serve only One God and they have no name known to mortal men, yet I acknowledge many for they do exist. People became stagnant with their spiritual growth and connection to nature which has made them blind to what is what.
But Aphrodite was originally associated with war as well. Why she was embraced by the Spartans. And was only acceptable to Athenians and other Greeks once her warrior personality was removed.