Lucid Tech Talk 01: Battery Pack Reaction
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- Sandy and Cory React to Lucid Motors Tech Talks | Battery Pack Video.
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Outro:
Music from UA-cam Audio Library [Aka YAL]
Music provided by RFM: • Video
#LucidMotors #BatteryPack #TechTalks
Sorry about the audio. We had technical issues with Sandy's mic.
Maybe two mics in the future (or a boom mic for backup) :P
On the other hand, your video is top quality and the content is pure class.
@@rkan2 You mean a double microphone on each body? No, their production failure may have been by not making a test recording and playing/checking it before starting the presentation.
No worries!
@Georgi Simov No, the video quality was off as well. Watchable, but not right.
Suggestion for future reaction videos: rather than filming you two guys looking at the laptop screen, show us a still of the part you are commenting on. For instance, on the busbars, it would be helpful for the viewer to see the video still and have you use a pointer to pick out the interesting bits. We still have the audio of the commentary but now we get the visual of what you're looking at.
👍 Or just sit in the conference room and use the projector…
I'm sure more is coming they put this video out quickly and with little time for planning or editing. Bad thing about such things is that first to market matters. They they will have much more as they digest this and have time to do something that is planed and edited.
Building on this get setup on OBS and have hot keys to switch between the laptop and camera similar to how streamers do it
Yes that a great suggestion.
Sandy, if you listen carefully, Peter did mention James Watt's name in the Lucid video.
Thank you for fixing the audio & reuploading this video. I watched the first upload and am now rewatching it with this better audio.
Sorry about the audio. We will do better next time.
@@MunroLive no need to apologize. Shit happens. The extra mile is appreciated
Couple Questions:
I thought half of Tesla's cells were upside down and the other half were right side up in most of their cars, this helps connect the 96 "bricks" with less wiring as the positive and negative terminals have easier access to eachother.
I agree the Right hand turn for the cooling will add resistance and likely add wear and tear to the cooling system and connection points, while the resistance and pump size is likely neglible, I agree with Sandy that the number of connections are the mostly likely problem. The sum of the resistance and larger pump is still probably a small problem that was easily solved.
I worked on space and airborne engineering before a career change with TONS of vibration and acceleration testing, back then only the connectors were a problem, soldering points and fuses never failed, is NVH an issue with Tesla or other EV solder joints?
Lastly a comment, I think the 22 module system has its benefits for manufacturing simplicity. Lucid has 1 module type, one smaller PCB board to control it. Each module is interchangeable, and interchangeable with smaller range models just having 18 modules that are sitll identical. A Tesla Model 3 has 4 non-interchangeable modules (granted 2 are mirror images). The Standard range modules being different from Long Range modules, and also different from the Model S/X modules. While the additional connectors could be a problem, the uniform modularity needs to be given credit.
That being said, Tesla is still the EV king and has a massive lead over Lucid in almost every way possible so I would definitely bet on red. You guys are the experts, but I like to think I am still a good engineer and thought I would share my own thoughts.
Well said
I absolutely just love love love this kind of study stuff of tech, please keep it coming and great video!
Hopefully you watched the original Lucid video. It is deeply informative.
James Watt invented the condenser which made steam engines MUCH more efficient. Watt DID NOT invent the steam engine.
It's really cool for you guys saying that still hurts whenever you have to tear down a nice and perfectly good car. It really shows how passionate and involved in your work and how close to your viewers you are. 👍
My thoughts exactly!
Yes, Peter took the right corner. It’s awesome seeing CEO’s stand behind their products and explain.
Trouble is, having watched Tesla (and others) for 10 years, it's obvious they'll never convince the confirmation biased Muppets.
@@rogerstarkey5390 Trouble is, after waiting for over 10+ years for... 260 Airs & seeing issues with the battery pack layout, build quality, design & complexity, I'm not convinced that Lucid's are the paragon of quality & efficiency PR is always banging on about. All coming from an ex-Lotus "just add lightness" engineer". But, hey, those panel gaps are nice. You can always lick the gaps & opine to your neighbours about them if your drivetrain fails, whilst waiting for a fix or replacement. And denying any Cognitive Dissonant Muppetry... 🤦
@@alexmanojlovic768 Good luck with all thousands of Model S 85 with broken batteries and over 45% of them has limited charging speed. Tesla made engines with poor quality in 2015 and they still do, plaid's are getting new Drive unit all over the place.
@@epoxy1710 Funnily enough, that's not a problem I personally will NEVER have to lose sleep over, so no luck needed. Hmmmmm. The 1st & only successful startup US automaker to mass produce successfully (& go global) in the last 50 years, had SOME problems (my 2001 Honda had a dangerous cutting-out issue while at speed, that was never subject to a recall, but the dealer said the ignition switch fail was a common problem) & you're picking fault still. Every maker had Takata Airbag deaths recall, GM have burning Bolts after THREE recalls. Toyota surging problem. Carry on Lemming....
I can't wait for the Lucid problems to shut YOU fanbois up. Peter Rawlinson is dodgy. I hope Lucid succeed, but I just. Don't. Trust. Him. There's something off in his presentations. He's lying about something.
@@epoxy1710 "plaid's are getting new drive units all over the place". Funny, I found no evidence of that. Send me 3 links to back up your claims, @Eh? Poxy.
Agreed it is good to understand conceptual history. When I study a concept like refrigeration if you go back to when it was first discovered then follow the progress through time you can understand it on a level much deeper than someone just taught what is existing today.
This channel keeps getting better and better, and I think it’s fantastic that Sandy shares the spotlight.
I think, from the way Sandy often struggles to find words, his memory may be starting to go. He realises this & is building the other guys up to have his mantle passed to people who are more fluid in their delivery. He's still the man & I love the way he criticises with no punches pulled, but is still tactful (to not scare off prospective customers).
Hope he keeps going & his health is good!
This is fascinating to watch your guys’ opinions on their video. Thank you so much for doing this!
FYI, the model 3 battery pack is no longer 75 kWh, but 82 kWh for the long range and performance variants, while the base variant is 62.3kWh according to the model 3 wikipedia page.
Yes, base Model 3 LFP got -5kWh upgrade
Sandy said heat rises.
Hot air rises (Convection)
but heat in a solid (battery) moves in any direction equally, but always to cold.
Using the inside of the rotor as a space for gearing is a brilliant idea.
2nd opinion on this please.
Because while it saves space and encasing, it limits the gearing space. Not to mention servicing.
@@musaran2 The guts of most EV motors are sealed/filled with lube/coolant. The added benefit of reducing pipework/fluid helps save weight & reduces leak points on the porker Air. They need to try harder in that respect, though, but you're right. Also how much extra heat is generated by the gearing, which is sharing the lube/coolant.
Agreed - I too am crushed every time I think of the Plaid in pieces
The Lucid presentation is excellent.
Unfortunately the car is not without its problems though. If I didn't want a Tesla I'd get the EQS over this car.
@@bluetoad2668 Lol
It was so good.
Really interested in lucid quality assessment, after rumors of technical weaknesses. Although you are expierienced engineers, I think a judgment by only looking on it's skin while walking around is not a trustworthy way and dangerous for your guys reputation. What happened to your principle of 'I believe it after I took a deep look inside' ?
@@solar.planet-earth In the last two years Sandy seems more interested in pleasing his UA-cam audience of Tesla fans than his engineering reputation. Anyone looking for a clear understanding of the Lucid video should simply watch that video.
I’m just curious on cooling connections. I understand less connections= less chance of coolant delivery failure. Could they be segmenting for maintenance, it truly seems to be more cost effective to replace/ repair a small battery pack vs replacing/ repairing an extremely larger one. Failure of cooling seems to favor the smaller packs due to ease of maintenance. A larger pack replacement would seem to have a healthy price tag. It seems the BMS (Battery Management System) that Lucid uses would pinpoint the
pack for a cost effective replacement for the consumer. I have seen what Tesla charges for pack replacement 💵💵💵💵💵💵 (I ❤️❤️❤️Tesla, not a basher)
Why CEO Peter Rawlinson was so smooth with the presentation tech details. Per his Lucid Bio:
"Prior to Lucid, Peter was Vice President of Vehicle Engineering at Tesla and Chief Engineer of the Model S, where he led the engineering of the Model S from a clean sheet to production readiness while building the engineering team.
A graduate of Imperial College, University of London, Peter was formerly Head of Vehicle Engineering at Corus Automotive, Chief Engineer at Lotus Cars, and Principal Engineer at Jaguar Cars."
He knows a thing or two about EV engineering. Not a "bean counter".
As far as his involvement in the development of the Model S goes, Elon said that it wasn't nearly as important as Rawlinson makes it look like, and he was only there for only the start of the development, not until the end.
If I have to believe the words of one of the two them (because they contradict each other), I'll of course go with Elon's side because he has not reason to lie instead of someone that tries too hard to look like Elon by overselling himself.
@@OnigoroshiZero you got brainwashed by Elon. Without Peter Thiel, Peter Rawlinson and Tom Mueller... Elon is nothing.
@@OnigoroshiZero elon lies all the time
@@OnigoroshiZero "Elon says". Well, would you be expecting Elon to say "Hey, yeah, that's the brilliant engineer who designed our Model S, but we parted ways because he was constantly being worked against by my childish behavior"?
The proof is in the pudding, and Rawlinson designed a car that gets 4.3 miles per kWh in real world testing. For comparison: a Model S Plaid gets 3.3 miles per kWh, and a Model 3 get 4.25 miles per kWh.
Really appreciate the time and effort the team at Munro and Associates puts into their videos... I am always enthralled and walk away with a new understanding... makes me want to go back to school or some hands on learning environment to pursue engineering studies.
Thanks Munro team
James Watt was a giant and we are standing on his shoulders. I have been honoured to be an Assistant Professor for Mechanical Engineering and Applied Physics (now retired) at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh. George Heriot was a forward thinking philanthropist funding education in Edinburgh, Scotland and in combination with James Watt, my former University is honouring the memory of two greats of education, Sciences and Technology.
There ain't 'alf been some clever Scotsmen!
@@rogerstarkey5390 Heron got there first!
Nice break-down and reaction video, keep them coming!
Hola Matt! Nice to see you here in the comments section lol
I’m so glad Corey said that about seeing the Plaid torn down. It is indeed heart breaking 😳
(But then I also think that when a car is crash tested.)
Great video yet again thanks gentlemen.
They could maybe buy 2 write-off at either end & dissect the good ends?. Maybe rarity is the problem as well as chassis twist.
another great one, thanks munro team 💚 watch til the end👍
Engineer Rawlinson it's the Science Teacher many wish had on High School.
Me too, I just saw his video and decided to watch it all it was very interesting and explained
Explained the fundamentals well to those who needed it....
Great job as always…peace
Simply amazing content! Thank you Munro family!
While heat does rise in a convective material like a liquid or a gas that can circulate, solid materials CONDUCT heat in all directions fairly evenly. So it doesn't matter if the cooling or heating is on top or on the bottom for heat transfer. Other factors such as battery protection, pack design, and structural design, have much more of an impact on cooling placement needs.
With battery cells, it does matter. A lot.
Heat has difficulty passing through the jelly roll of anode/cathode chemistry in batteries (along with the formation of dendrites, which poor cooling accelerates). Going through horizontally from the hot centre to the sides is a very resistive path & leaves a hot central core. V. Bad for cell longevity. Sandy vaguely compared surface area of the combination of side conductivity vs bottom contact patch, but didn't clarify. He was alluding to:- application of the thermal paste on the sides was inconsistent, deceptive & appeared larger than it is. Tesla (& their licensees) 4680 design of tabless cells is specifically aimed at transferring heat through continuous heat transfer via the end of the entire jelly roll to the bottom plate as the most efficient method of heat (& electrical) conductivity. As the path of transfer is shorter, therefore less resistance, so less heat is generated. Look it up to get a proper scientific explanation of why you're under a misapprehension. Also as the diameter increases the ratio of surface are becomes more beneficial to end cooling. Samsung's famous battery fires & recalls, was due to them extending the conductive foil to the edge of the cell to reduce resistance, but they got it wrong & short circuits were the result. 4680 Tabless to cell bottoms makes a big conductivity improvement.
@@alexmanojlovic768
I believe you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say, as I entirely agree with you. What I was trying to clear up was the misapprehension that heat travels upwards in a solid material. People are very used to thinking of heat rising due to thermal convection in the air (gas), and their coffee (liquid), and not by thermal conduction through a solid (the underside of a hot roof).
Of course thermal energy will travel along the most conductive pathway, just as electricity does. If the cylindrical cells are arranged vertically with the ends being cooled or warmed by plate heat exchangers, it will only matter which end has the most contact between the shell and the conductive end of the jelly roll, and that the heat exchange system is matched to that end.
It will not matter if the cells and the heat exchange plates are oriented with the cooling side on the underside of the battery pack, or on top, as the lithium cells do not contain enough liquid electrolyte to cause effective convective heat transfer between lower and upper regions.
Convective heat is caused by the lowering of the density of a fluid or gas, causing it to rise against gravity through colder and denser fluid or gas until it is able to sink back down again once it is less dense than the surrounding material (think Lava Lamp).
@@GoCoyote Indeed I did!! 🤦
Most Sorry, I've been really ill for 4 days & extremely tired. For some reason I was taking your comment as side vs end cooling. I have no idea why, because your post says nothing of the sort. Deepest apologies
Thanks (on behalf of others) for the extra physics knowledge for the extra info. You are spot on & perfectly explained. 👍
@@alexmanojlovic768
No worries! I have found that life offers endless opportunities to make a fool of myself. As I have gotten older, I have started to figure out that the trick is to figure out which opportunities NOT to take advantage of. Your explanation was also very clear and cogent. As a recently retired electrician who has worked a lot with renewable energy, it has been an incredible pleasure to see so many people become so engaged with renewable energy lately. While batteries themselves are energy agnostic, they are a very important part of transitioning away from fossil fuels, and it is so wonderful to hear others like you interested enough to take the time to battery-splain to each other, as I have also done. LOL All my best to you.
@@GoCoyote the error was mine. There's hope for the future & finally the oil shills are losing their battle of lies.
The thickness of the wire bonds has to be a compromise between durability and vibration fracture resistance, and the role of the bond as a “fuse” in the event that the cell shorts internally due to a dendrite or separator layer failure, and all the other cells in parallel with it try to discharge simultaneously through the shorted cell.
They appear to be flat semi solid tabs not wires. Lateral flex will be a major issue. Most others use wire links which these links are most definitely not. Inadvertant, unwanted, unexpected "fuse" action will possibly be an issue, affecting range & recharge times. And Lucid's claim of "late (again & again) because we want to get it right & have the highest quality possible" springs to mind. I hope they made a good car, but I don't trust Rawlinson at all.
So it's Side cold plate ( *Tesla method* which is a wave formed aluminum extrusion) vs Bottom cold plate ( *Lucid method* ). This has been studied extensively - you can find them on the internet.
Verdict is that: the *Tesla method* _is safer from the mechanical and electrical point of view._ (and PR goes off on the small conduction area but Tesla actually uses a Thermal Interface Material similar to a thermal paste to maximize and even out the conduction area/gap)
Tesla method: _The temperature distribution within the module is relatively even with relatively low coolant flow rate and low pumping power required. The results show a small temperature distribution inside the batteries._
Lucid method: _The cooling method shows poor performance when it comes to the internal temperature gradient of the cells. However, the temperature distribution in a module is even._
Given that the maximum temperature difference in a module is 5°C, the Tesla method can afford a _2W Heat generation per cell,_ while the Lucid method can only allow for a _1.24W Heat generation per cell._
source: www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1290856/FULLTEXT01.pdf
Please explain then why Tesla is moving to end cooling for the 4680 packs if indeed it is not as efficient as side cooling.
You overlooked something fundamental: that study is very specific to 2170. Tesla is shifting to end cooling with the 4860s. Side cold plate cooling doesn't scale well to larger diameter batteries, and with end cooling, you have more contact surface area to work with.
From a manufacturing and quality control standpoint, end cooling makes the most sense, especially you're considering a future with larger battery sizes which require end cooling.
@@paulo3011 You can watch the entire Lucid presentation and learn his reasoning for choosing end cooling was better contact consistency and manufacurability.
The end cooling saves space and that may also have played a role in that choice. Clearly both methods are adequate at least in the 2170 size factor.
@@MrCPPG
"Please explain".....
.
OK, let's do that.
From the 2170 Cory showed, the contact strip on the side of the Tesla 2170 cell was about 10mm wide? By 700mm tall? So 700 sqmm.
.
The area of the bottom plate?
10.5 x 10.5 x π = 346 sqmm.
About half the vertical contact area?
Win for side cooling!
.
But, on a 4680.....
Vertical contact 10x 80mm.
(800)
Bottom plate contact
23x 23 x π =1669 sqmm.
DOUBLE the vertical area.
.
So on the 4680, bottom plate cooling makes complete sense.
.
Is that clear enough?
Glad you posted because I was going to ask for a more in-depth look at the two from a thermodynamic perspective. Heat may transfer better over a straight edge but heat transfer efficiency is 1/(r^2) and you have a lot longer way to go from end to end (70mm). At 21mm diameter, the furthest travel distance around the cell with side cooling is half the circumference: about 33mm. That's less than half the distance of end cooling to the far end of the cell which with 1/(r^2) means end cooling would have to be 4 times more efficient to make it better. I like that end cooling simplifies things and reduces manufacturing costs but my guess is they are also trying to sell it as "better cooling"... which I doubt.
Please do a Lucid Air teardown at some point. If they go out of business, your analysis of what they could have done better to save on manufacturing costs would be hugely helpful to other EV autos and I'm sure plenty of competitors will pay for your full reports.
Peters brilliant engineering mind came out in the video. I loved watching every minute and will be tuning in to future episodes.
Thank you!
Great breakdown of the video guys.
Thank you for making this video. Looking forward for more videos on Lucid Teardown!
Audio is ok! 👌🏻
Thanks for the cool video guys
I would suggest you review the upcoming Lucid tech talk videos individually, as time permits.
You say it cost more to do than your own videos, but you may get just as much views on your channel without having to do any tear down yourselves or the purchase of a vehicle.
Your input is very much appreciated and looked forward to.
We are not going to settle on anything until Sandy give his input.
All I'm saying is, what you have to say is important in the conversation
Peter, where is the link to the videos being analyzed? It’s not obvious to me.
@@briancayer5815 The other videos by Lucid is not out yet.
Cory said that they won't be able to review all the upcoming videos, because it cost more to do than there than doing their own
@@peterpet77rp
I say make it public domain.
Then let the public decide.
At this point I don’t see the point unless I can compare one to the other.
Just saying.
Brian
Love you videos. Thanks!
Glad you like them!
I find it intriguing that there is all this great technical info coming out on EV's and the customers are getting this deep dive into the inner workings of these vehicles.....yet there is no equivalent on ICE vehicles, the OEM's only market the styling, cup holders and USB ports, is there no innovation happening on drive trains, engines, etc......or have they just given up at this stage.
ICE car structures have pretty much reached their peak evolution between efficiency and strength. We are just beginning to see the evolution of EVs.
@@ohger1 ICE may be near peak value/cost, but I remember so many planned improvements:
1) Rack and pinion to guide pistons to have even cylinder wear.
2) Camshaft alternative for better compression & expansion profiles.
3) Variable compression ratios to adjust to usage.
4) Injecting water to help converting heat into pressure.
5) Selenium (?) additive to reduce smallest particles.
…
I suppose they all cost too much to develop or manufacture for common use.
Nice review from the original video. We build Battery Systems for AMG here in Germany. Different pack but same cells.
Thank You for All that you are doing for World Peace and for our Planet...
Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. La Paz.. Namaste ..
🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ ☮️ ❤️ 🕊
I subscribed months ago; I just fell behind at the end of last year, because I attended a few funerals last year.
16:55 Heat rises in fluid convection, not conduction. The casing of the 2170 cells is aluminum, and aluminum is highly conductive. The large, flat surface of the bottom of the aluminum cell is in direct contact with the cooling plate, which is by far the most effective way of heating or cooling cylindrical cells. Peter's presentation on their methods for integrating cylindrical cells into a pack is the only thing that makes me think that cylindrical cells might still be effective for automotive purposes.
So you don't think the 4680 cooling system is better. I would disagree based on Munroe's extrapolation of cooling in that system. Yes, I know no pack yet to break down. But with the squatter cell and tabless design to reduce evolved heat, I was sold on that design.
@@avgjoe5969 I haven't seen Tesla's 4680 cooling system strategy, but based on the fact that both Lucid and Rivian settled on very similar cooling strategies after rigorous testing and even trying Tesla's ribbon strategy for themselves, I doubt Tesla's 4680 system is superior in any meaningful or significant way.
As for the tabless cell design, it sounds like an improvement, but it's still just incremental, inching Tesla closer to the point that they should just be using prismatic cells.
Amazing content! Definitely the best EV channel on UA-cam ❤️
Thanks for this. Next time would love to see a camera view of the other side of the computer so we can see what they are pointing at.
15:00 Look at how big their battery pack is!!!! No wonder it weighs so much more than the Plaid. That’s how they get that range.
It's both pack size and efficiency. Even the cheapest 80k model is rated at over 400 miles of range.
Once again another "Tour de Force" by the "MUNRO team", Sandy & Cory get it right when they put out a video. I so look forward to viewing these MUNRO Live segments, because I know that not only will I feel that I learned something new. But that the content is genuine and sincere.
I guess what I find honorable is the pure speak of Sandy about the way things are now, compared to how they should have been in the past but due to the Luddite thinkers of the auto industry they never were the bright shinning stars they could have been.
I remember how Sandy said once upon a time that he was not a fan of Elon Musk because at first he didn't really care for the guy. I BET that Elon Musk thought that about Sandy too, NOW look at them go? They probably TWEET each other EH?!? ( I am kidding who has time to TWEET)
Seriously though, This video really shows how the MUNRO team are the right people for the job, They have had a lot of practice thinking outside of the box, and this video shows us many tricks to success.
BRAVO to the MUNRO TEAM for working the kinks out of Production Hell and beautifying their business model. I for one stand in AWE of these guy's at how humble a company can be and still stand out in a crowd.
I think that Christan von Koenigsegg is at least as knowledgeable as Rawlinson and Musk. Would be thrilled to hear your take on Koenigseggs advancements.
Kind of the other spectrum of engineering .
Low production but incredibly powerful design choices
Don't forget Rimac, Guy who won Guinness World Record for EV.
"At least" as knowledgeable?
🤔
Very knowledgeable, certainly,
But
Overall, I'll take the guy who's built numerous revolutionary companies in different fields, taught himself "Rocket Science"(!) and is going for at least 3 more disruptions in the next 5 years.......?
Automotive titans series: Rawlinson. Rimac, Koenigsegg, Musk and special guest...Rich Rebuilds.
I love that they use battery modules. It is perfect for second life applications
On the other hand, if you can undo maybe 20 bolts and 6 plugs, then slide a complete pack into a "second use application", I would call that pretty close to "perfect"?
@@rogerstarkey5390 maybe for some large industrial applications. But for a private household for example one or two modules would suffice. In addition, a 600 kg 400-1000 V battery pack can only be handled with machines, be transported by trucks and be worked on with high voltage safety equipment. In contrast, a single module (~30 kg, 40 V) can be carried around by one person without risk.
@@Nelson-Man
How many households are going to repurpose these units, bearing in mind the stages required to get the module to that place?
.
Good packs (/modules) will be slid into a racking system built with a standard secondary BMS, bad packs/ modules will be recycled.
Thank You Sandy and Crew
Could you do a similar review of Lucid’s motor and inverter/charging tech talks?
F to the Heck yeah, I was hoping Sandy would do a review on this!!! Thank you so much Sandy!!! Can’t wait until you do a Lucid tear down!!! I know they cost a lot but I’m sure there are more things to look into than this video.
LUCID IS SOOO NICE. SO LUXURIOUS. SO CLASSY. IT’S THE VEHICLE YOU WANT BUT CAN’T AFFORD SO YOU JUST SETTLE WITH A TESLA.😂
Good commentary. I'm not an engineer myself but I hope you get some great candidates to add to your team!
Will you do a reaction video of Lucid's motor video? You seemed pretty critical of the motor/inverter in this one.
Lucid ceo is a good lecturer in the end. Dude is good at convincing Saudis and show the basics to general public with a very fine tuned script. Run when you still have time.
Peter is Kashoogi , when he can repay the SAUDIS .they will collect in Blood.
Tesla fanboys triggered already.
@@RogerM88 - PETER is a FRAUD. do your own Research.
@@markplott4820 Trolling for Tesla - go away and stop polluting the comments with your 12 year old mentality
It's actually great because just like Norway was clever at using their gigantic oil resources to invest in cleaner energies and EVs I think the Saudis can also benefit alot. They already have more and more water desalination plants running on solar energy....
Other variants of the Lucid Air are priced lower than the Dream edition that is shipping now. The Lucid Air Pure variant is priced at $77,400, which is considerably less than the Tesla Model S Plaid that Munro is tearing down. A Tesla Model Y Performance can be optioned to be more than $77k.
The Pure variant of the Air probably won’t start shipping until next year at the earliest.
You mean "....WILL BE priced at $77,000"?
In? 2 years?..... Maybe?
@@rogerstarkey5390 maybe it'll be priced around the top trim CyberTruck...how much is that again?
Please consider getting a Heil PR30B microphone for these types of sit down sessions. One mic would cover both persons and the audio quality is very good.
Peter did an awesome job and as a CEO even better. No Other CEO has done this. His formulas were right on as I am a Broadcast Design Engineer and his Ohm's law was spot on! I knew all about Series/Parallel, Power/Amps/Volts/Ohms, and what I am intrigued about is why a 2170, not 18650's, and you would think Peter would be really interested in something 'like' a 4680! It like a AAA battery vs a AA, vs a 'D Cell', the fatter the battery the higher the capacity, yet the size not all that much bigger, and all are 1.6Volts. He could use less cells, less cooling, less weight, less modules, higher amp (current) capacity per pack, smaller in size, same 520 range or more!! I think that's the direction Tesla is taking with 4680's!
It would have been very helpful to be able to see the things you were pointing out in the Lucid video.
Thank you for putting this together ❤️.
The drive unit weighs 74 kgs. Keep in mind this is a 900v system.
With the big electronics box?
The whole car is a ridiculously overweight porker, though. Ex-Lotus engineer PR seems to have forgotten Colin Chapman's aphorism of "just add lightness". Makes a few of us suspicious about his battery capacity claims. The extra weight could very well simply be more modules to achieve that claimed efficiency & range (& more investors).
I'm very dubious.
@@alexmanojlovic768 the extra weight didn't help with efficiency. But more batteries provided a stellar top line range number. At their price point they needed a bragging point. The car also has excellent aero, and can hit 300 kW briefly while charging. It can add hundreds of miles of range in minutes. Even the cheapest 80k trim is rated at over 400 miles of range. A stellar first effort.
@@jghall00 it does appear to be a good car, but I think Rawlinson is hiding something. He always looks fishy & uncomfortable on videos, not in a nervous way. Something else is wrong. And they're sooooo behind on promised delivery numbers. I just don't think he's up to the job of CEO. Lucid are taking forever to build their cars primarily by hand. They're later than a late thing to Latesville, LateLand...
He worked at Lotus, Jaguar & Corus before Lucid. Musk... wrote Software. Look at the difference in achievement building cars in their timescales with Rawlinson's experience as principal/Chief engineer at 3 car manufacturers! And Atieva already had experience building battery packs for racing cars.
Rowlinson beat you to a tear down. Not only CEO tear down his car, he explained it in detail.
He wouldn't want Sandy tearing down an actual car, it'd reveal how inefficient and expensive it is to build
@@bluetoad2668
You really have no idea.
@@rogerstarkey5390 Why is here such a weight difference between the Plaid and Lucid? Lucid’s battery still uses cobalt, how is that superior tech?
@@St.Maurice Probably because the Lucid is geared towards luxury. Sound insulation takes up weight. Better seats take up weight. The Plaid is an engineering marvel, but the Lucid is targeting a group of buyers that doesn't want a 100K+ car with the same level of noise as a BMW 3 -series.
@@Jeroenneman So luxury seats have to be heavy? There are several videos of Lucid owners complaining of a humming noise when driving. Engineering marvel? Just recalled for suspension and doesn’t have working cruise control or ota updates?
im reminded of an old sitcom.... Steptoe and Son
Great info guys. Im sure Peter has noticed your Tech Talks
End cooling vs side cooling. You might get better thermal transfer from cooling/heating from the 'bottom' of the cell but I suspect you 're also going to see a larger thermal gradient overall as a result.
Thank you
You're welcome
Sorry Sandy but Watt didn't invent the steam engine. He made it practical. It's like saying Edison invented the lightbulb. Nope, he commercialized it (made it practical).
I think the thin wire on each cell is intended to act as a fuse.
Yes, fusible links.
Thanks for the prompt re-upload :)
I love reaction videos. Usually they are roastings, but I totally agree with you guys, Peter did a fantastic job. I'm sure he'll get a lot of positive feedback and hopefully do more deep dives. Yeah, I would have them not worry about the production quality so much. Content is king.
You didn't see the many mild criticisms or questions?
I think EVDrive was first to develop tab cooling (end-cooled) cylindrical cells, first with 18650s. ENSI Toyota mining trucks and later the 1st Nikola PHEV Semi truck prototype were early projects using the EVDrive tab cooled battery modules. Unlike Lucid, both cell ends were cooled.
Capacitors have had multiple tabs for years. Tesla's trick (the patent) is in the manufacturing process they've designed/developed.
I almost don't want to press play because the thumbnail has my cracking up xD EDIT: okay i pressed play finally. Great video, and I feel like i was picking up on some subtle hints throughout the breakdown....very informative and classy.
Generally love your vids guys, and the info and analysis again was great but the presentation was lacking. Time to up your game with split screen. 🙂
Great video. I watched the Lucid one first and thought it was a shame you guys likely wouldn't get an Air to teardown since they're leading the pack in range. Glad to have this as a great middle ground.
I like the history part about Watt.
Heron 'invented' the aeolipile, steam engine in 1AD. Watt applied it first to mass practical work in 1760sAD.
Good job, guys
Thank you
I was generally impressed with the lucid battery pack design, and definitely agree that end cooling is the way to go for cylindrical cells.
The "wire" bonds are rather chunky but that is for a good reason, since they are aluminum (tricky bond to the steel cell cases), with the narrow one also serving as a fuse.
Having more modules does make the pack more serviceable, which for a high-end car brand I would see as a plus as they should be simple to swap at a local service facility. Owner satisfaction is likely more important to them than total cost in comparison to makes like Tesla.
The number of modules had nothing (or little) to do with "serviceability".
It's down to:
1) Their perception of the best packaging method for inside vs outside space.
.
2) The (well documented?) company plan to sell technology to others, which means multiple standard modules can easily be configured into various pack and vehicle sizes.
.
In a "high end car", one, or several dead cells are essentially irrelevant as a percentage of the pack capacity.
For instance, a dead sub module of 33 cells? (Unlikely) That's 0.5% of the pack.
It's interesting- there are times I see Sandy excusing Tesla design decisions in the Model S due to it being an upscale, low volume product. I didn't hear that once in this discussion (for example the orange bus connectors).
@@paulo3011
He doesn't "excuse" the Model S anything.
Don't try and FUD when there's nothing there.
did I hear your correctly that it was a "tortured path" for wiring? Thank you all for info/vid and I still smile every time to see what you share with us. On the move for me but hope to see you again.
Hey, I learned something! It's not torturous but rather tortuous. The latter means full of twists and turns. Torturous (and torture) has the same origins, just applied to the human body, which is why I thought it was the same thing (and I'm pretty sure Sandy actually said tortured).
In context it just means wiring that goes back and forth a lot. I didn't understand what the purpose was in this case though.
I love how Sandy is always complimentary at the start of a teardown or evaluation, but coughs & pauses when saying something is basically a bit rubbish & could be better, because he's wanting to sell M.Assoc consultancy to people who really, really need it. There weren't many complements in this assesment (doesn't surprise me & he called Rawlinson: Rowlands, which tickled my funny bone).
I can comfortably listen to you guys at 1.5 playback speed.
great video but it was more show than true information about their batteries and battery packs. It was a high school lesson in batteries and that's fine to explain to the novice how a battery pack works but the details of much of that battery pack were never really discussed. What is the chemistry of the cells? It seems that they are just batteries that are standard and off the shelf. That to me means that they aren't anything special. Next they never talked about the power density of the batteries or the packs they are assembled into so they aren't anything unusual or they would have said something. Tesla when it has a battery day goes into great detail as to the density and power to weight and volume numbers of their new 4680 batteries. That's because they actually have batteries that are much different than the cells Lucid is using. And the last thing that Lucid didn't mention was the cycle life of the battery packs. It's critical to understand the cycle life of the batteries to know their expected life and durability. Lucid is very careful to not mention this. It will be important to see just what 4680's add to Tesla's battery packs going forward as I see this as the big difference in Tesla and Lucid batteries. Lucid is doing fine against todays battery technology and their overall design is OK but it's old battery technology other than the packaging. Going forward Lucid appears to me to be in the position that GM is when they talk of their battery packs. Stuck in the past and the new batteries and chemistries coming out will blow them away once they hit the market. Lucid has basically taken a battery pack and design for the racing circuit and put it in a standard car. They haven't really developed anything to speak of beyond taking a technology designed for racing and putting it in a production car. Racing EV's aren't concerned with battery life beyond finishing the race. They are designed just to put out max power to the motors. That fine but if it doesn't hold up for 10 years or more it's not going to be successful. So in the end the video was a cinematographic master piece but it really left more unsaid that said.
THANKS4GIVING
GREAT RUNDOWN THANKS
Great video.
Thanks for the details.
Now there is integrated wireless communications in BMS to eliminate most of the low voltage wires mentioned in 14:32.
What you guys are doing is like soooooo helpful for young fresh engineers.... How many people would be wishing for sandy long life 🥸❤️
Lucid probably has the most advanced motor, gearbox combo of any EV
True but Pro-Tesla won't like this.
But it is probably like last gen Rimac tech. 😜
@@3nityC
So you've gone from "probably" to "true", suggesting "fact"?
Sad.
@@3nityC re: "Pro-Tesla won't like this" they're gonna lose their sh!t.
The inverter seems to mounted on long standoffs holding it from the motor. It looks like the inverter and the motor have matching mating surfaces. Maybe that is for viewing purposes? Both drive units look compact for the output.
12:00 I think Cory said he saw a park pawl ring at 9:15 in the Lucid video. Maybe he's looking at something else, but I'm seeing the a spline to engage the housing on the outside of the stationary ring gear in the planetary reduction. By the way, I think it's brilliant how they spin the differential at motor RPM (cutting its torque requirement 5 to 10 times) and use two final reductions.
Can you please explain to me how the concentric differential and reductions work? I just can’t wrap my mind around it and NO ONE is talking about it.
@@bob15479 Looking at the Lucid video: there's a tiny differential which has the motor rotor as its carrier (usually the carrier is in the final drive). Each output from the differential drives a planetary final drive reduction gear (the final reduction on the left side is cut away so you can see the gears while the right side is intact and it's gears are hidden). The small shaft from each differential output drives the sun gear in its respective planetary, the planet carrier drives its CV shaft, the ring gear is stationary.
@@RallyRat sounds like a topic for engineering explained.
To maintain maximum flow of water or air. There should no more then a 10° angle during direction change
They should do a series attempting to put the Plaid back together!
Why given time things will fall off anyway. 😉
Thank you for the take.
interesting take on a vid analysis... Have a good weekend... Sandy, It's Wednesday... Half week over at Munro!
Peter did mention James Watt at 2:04 of the video
It's great to see this level of engineering analysis. I can't help wondering though how many of these 'niceties' may need to take second place in a truly affordable $25,000 EV though. Lovely engineering is EXPENSIVE too, You're belter placed than most to comment.
What about immersion cooling? Where the coolant level is at 10% of the cell height?
Sandy says he "doesn't know much" about Peter Rawlinson so here are a couple tidbits. Peter was chief engineer at Jaguar, Lotus, and Tesla (see his video introducing the Model S on Tesla's UA-cam channel). He was at Lotus during their development of the original Tesla Roadster. Peter designed and built a sports car, the Imola, as a private project. He is a real engineer.
I strongly recommend watching the original Lucid video.
Caveat: Elon Musk has pretty tough words on Peter Rawlinson.
He notably barely worked on the Model S.
@@musaran2 re: "Caveat: Elon Musk has pretty tough words on Peter Rawlinson." PSYCHOLOGY BEHIND THE CAVEAT: Elon said those things because his EGO was hurt as Pete clearly is SMARTER than him, and Pete now has the "last laugh".
re: "He is a real engineer." exactly, with the CV (Curriculum Vitae) to back it up so... #NOTABULLSHITTER
@@musaran2 As I said above, watch Tesla's own video on their UA-cam channel where Rawlinson shows and describes the engineering of the Model S. Musk is a petulant child who will say anything that comes to mind.
@@musaran2 Elon lies.
Battery cooling is a nightmare, so I'm glad my 215 mile range '22 Nissan Leaf has no battery cooling. They are proven, last a long time, and you don't have to worry about coolant leaks inside, clogging small passages, pumps failing, maintenance, etc. .... Wow, the Leaf does not seem to need cooling, although some fast-charging has to be limited a bit, that causes other (and NIssan's newer Ariya) to get horrible liquid cooling.
Like the reaction video, but Picture in Picture would be a big improvement
Heat doesn’t "rise". That’s convection, in low viscosity fluids, low friction situations. And it depends on thermal expansion coefficient, change in density. What temperature gradient acceptable before thermal runaway?