Exactly, people have lost sight of the fact that games were created just for fun. Unfortunately sports fans wormed their way into gaming and now it's treated like professional sports. You're expected to perform at an unrealistic level or else you're considered "trash".
@@derekbateman7378 Don't blame sports fans for this, that was done by *gamers* alone. It's not like the Soccer fans muscled all the other dudes out of competitive multiplayer, and took it for themselves. It was the groups of *gamers* that wanted to have the next big *insert name here* tournament. It's how EVO started, some of the first HALO championships, etc. When people started getting paid for having viewership whilst playing video games, the first stone was laid in the foundation of "If you aren't better than ____ amount of other streamers, you're not going to get anything out of this." As with almost everything else in this world, the people that will either make or break the gaming culture, will *be* the gamers.
The sad thing is that the whole world operates on such a base more than ever. Rush everything, overoptimize everything, and be ready to adapt to a climate enforced by a goddamn statistic that shows a higher percentage of profit/success. Not even art or sports escaped this. Its numbers numbers numbers until the end of days.
@@celticfox well said, i am a old player, at the times or arcades, gaming was just fun, not a career, it was not a job, this is how changed and certainly becomes boring.
I think it's more the issue of games being designed FOR eSports in mind, rather than creating a fantastic game a lot of players want to compete against each other in.
I think that's totally fine, as long as they didn't try to push really hard by immediately investing in big events post-launch. This happens a lot because they just think it'd be a good way to market the game, seemingly forgot that events needs an audience first.
@@faradise3819 Basically the problem Street Fighter 5 had they were ALL in on esports yet the game didn't work for 3 months at launch and then people constantly saying they hate the game yet only played it for the money
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 Yeah since the casuals got burned badly any other IP would be dead if it pulled what SF5 did. They for sure learned the casuals need something instead of getting bopped in ranked mode.
That's definitely part of the problem. Developers have only a limited time to work on a game, so any time they waste on a spectator mode for e-Sports, or balancing stuff for pros is time wasted on making a good game for the vast majority of players. And Heroes of the Storm shows exactly why building a game is a lost cause, the pros won't play the game the way the developers think they will. For example it book Blizzard by surprise how pros usually had 1 player soak 2 lanes at once while everyone else had a 4 man fight in the third lane.
The problem is that for many games the eSports scene is completely artificial and dependent on the developer. The moment they pull the plug is the moment the eSport scene is dead. You need it to form organically and independent of the developer for it to be real.
This is the golden comment. eSports was always community run. Whether it's CS, Quake, and even old CoD on PC. The game is just good, and a scene develops organically, without a developer pushing updates in the background or propping up a scene by throwing money at it. CS and Quake were never meant to be competitive games, they were just great and a scene developed.
@@christiansmemefactory1513 pretty much. People shit on smash bros. in general for being a party game, and its base being...unique but its competitive scene has been going strong, completely do to the community despite Nintendo. A game has to be fun before its competitive.
@@christiansmemefactory1513 People even made Quake ]|[ Arena compatible with newer OS... And this game is a hell of a ride, which even surprises players, who have never played it before with a difficulty they weren't expecting. The lifetime after spawn can be between 1 to 30 seconds
Another issue is that is they really, REALLY want to push the game to become an E-Sport, they must at least let the game to naturally evolve for at least a Year. Once players find the meta and organice around it, then you can push for the competitive scene fully.
A lot of companies make the mistake of taking too much control. Community and passion are incredibly important and need to evolve organically. This has ruined many competetive scenes. Just look at Nintendo and Blizzard. Companies need to listen and support communities and build with them instead of just launching their own tournament and partnering with advertisers...
People played and still play games that don't get patches and have metagames. Like how Melee was brought up in the video: people have had 22 years of evolving metagame. It never stopped being a beloved competitive game. The stability that comes from a game being "finished" means the players have to change, instead of the game.
A lot of companies also don't like the meta that arises. When one tactic dominates, they tend to try and "balance" it because of a few whinos who aren't as good at the game as they think they are. But in highly competitive videogames, there will always be a best strategy and trying to balance to eliminate that leads to a boring game for everyone else.
I think something that is really understated when it comes to game balance is the fact that games like Starcraft and CSGO a lot of the balance comes from the map
AoE2 doesn't have a huge esport scene but its consistent, continually growing and almost completely supported by the viewers, players and casters. Only in recent years has devs come back to support the game or outside companies bother putting on tournaments for the game. Mainly Red Bull. But I don't think it is big because its not being artificially inflated. People need to learn that many of the popular esports aren't big because they're actually big but because they're artificially being inflated for hopes of future returns. Artificial creation of a hype train.
@@ououkuaipao I disagree. I thought HoTS was very enjoyable to watch. The action was quick, maps were compact and easy to follow, and the Blizzard casters had passion and excitement in their calls.
Still play Hots often because it is fun and casual to play but I didn't watch the esport. I almost never play SC2 these days but I look the content very often. Hots is an amazing casual game. I play it SC2 is an amazing difficult game. I watch it.
@@ououkuaipao I have spent hundreds of hours playing and watching others play HotS; imo, it's the best MOBA. Matches don't last that long; there's constant action because of the objective; everyone in the team levels up at the same time, so support players can also have fun; there are so many different maps and so many different abilities and characters, and you can modify abilities to make it better; you don't have to worry about last hits; it's just a super fun game. People hate this game for no freaking reason.
As someone who did sport science for a bit, this is actually very similar to physical sports too, but i think its usually forgotten because of how long ago it was when it was only kept going through passion for the sport, like back in the 1800s and early 1900s by university students etc, but something which is definitely missing and overlooked in these esports which is in these huge physical sports is locally run grassroot competitions and projects, that is how you keep a sport alive. Also yes, games need to change, but not too big of a change too often, and needs to be accesible to as many people as possible. This is definitely the hardest parts for e-sports, but even physical sports do have vast changes and some stuff gets ‘nerfed’, changed or removed/banned, Athletics is a huge example with Tracks, the Javelin, Spikes and shoes, and swimming with certain swim suits.
I think the biggest issue with many things such as metagames/etc is as a society we applied scientific method to EVERYTHING in life in order to MIN/MAX society. We see the same issue in regular sports - homeruns in baseball/strikeouts, three pointers in baseketball/etc and as the meta defines the sport, it makes things predictable and kinda boring because there is a 'best' strategy and very little variety which isn't much fun to watch. We started creating metas for everything in life as a way to max wins/profits/etc and it's tough to go back from that once you found the 'best strat' in a game or in life. Hence why real estate was the dominant investment strategy for example.
Yeah, sometimes it exciting when its first used, but once it becomes meta, it gets boring because no one does anything else, another example i say is high jump, which shows this perfectly, when the frosby flop was first done, it was exciting as it was something new, now everyone does it.
Yep I was thinking, would it even be possible to create a game that couldn't have guides written about it? You could make just about every variable an RNG and there would still be a 'best strat'.
Games that are forced into e-sports or designed with them in mind seem to inevitably fail miserably, whereas the ones that an esports scene naturally evolved out of seem to be the best off.
@@macrokamusic5971 Rocket League is too easy to become an esport. It's easy to understand, takes pure skill, and little to no balances required. It's simply soccer with cars.
I’d argue this is because what those games are almost always designed for is hard-core players, and to make the game fun to play a lot. But often times the spectator experience suffers for that. Games like StarCraft:BroodWar or ClassicWOW are a lot simpler, and can be more fun to watch.
I wouldn't say it's "ruined" gaming but not every multiplayer game needs to be a perfectly balanced competetive esport. Many devs nowadays tend to make the mistake of changing or removing fun features from a game to cater to the esport fans who can sometimes be very narrow minded.
Yes! Game need to stay as it is and just let the community run the competitive scenes. Devs on the other hand just need to focus to improve the server netcode and fix the bugs on it and sponsoring the prize money upon the community event is an extra help for community like how ID Software used to do during the earliest Quake event in 90s that nobody talked about
this; i think it's crazy that riot games keeps trying to make LoL's main mode work as both a competitive & casual gaming environment. the game needs more casual game modes so that casual players have something more fun & relaxing to play while the main competitive mode can have more focused balance changes for its competitive audience. just having a ranked mode doesn't do much when it inevitably shares changes catered towards a casual playerbase. it just seems as though they don't want to put in the resources to make that happen, aside from the recent exception/addition of arena 2v2v2v2.
When multiplayer games are developed to be good games first and foremost, and an organic "esport" scene develops around it instead of one that was planned out. I think that's always more entertaining. That's how it was in the beginning.
I agree that "meta" gameplay is an issue, it often ruins the experience of games because players more or less stop playing the game for what it has to offer in favor of playing a style that a particular pro player or guide has advertised. This homogenizes the experience in pvp content because often these styles are very easy to execute and yet demanding of specific responses. Overall what happens if you want to play your own style is you will be pushed down the rating ladder and that just incentivizes more and more players to give up playing their own styles.
No one played bangalore for 4 years, now she's on every team because pros realized the smoke negates aim assist. People just want free wins to pad the ego.
Watching people never mentioning FPS Arena when talking about esports, made me painfully realise that FPS Arena dried out too early and that I'm getting older. Games like Quake are absolutely amazing to watch, they are not hard to understand and have a good balance of "dead" moments and action packed segments. It's a shame that the industry let the genre die because it was too much for the "casual" gamer to handle.
I think refusing to evolve did too like as far as i know quake champions still uses old bunny hop mechanics and if you want to learn you have to practice a lot i grew up with quake 3 and i still suck at it then i played a source mod called bear party adventure and in that mod you just have to hold space to bunny hop and for a simple change it makes the game much better and casual friendly most arena fps games are incredibly menacing for new players still fortnite and overwatch or apex has some of that arena fps dna in them so theres still place for arena fps they just need to learn that instead of new quake make a convenient quake so a good player can do cool stuff and a new player can try to do that stuff without eating shit
@@cloudnine2330Quake Live tried this in one of the patches and it brought the game back to life briefly before going back down to even worse than where it was before, autohop and load outs aren’t the silver bullet. The big problem with arena FPS is a similar issue fighting games run into, the skill gaps are very wide between noobs and veterans and the veterans absolutely demolish the noobs. At least in fighting games the roster can make the vets relearn a bit to level the playing field somewhat. Then there’s also the fact that in arena FPS you can’t see your opponent’s stack so you could be fairly close in skill to your opponent and still go -1/20 because your opponent doesn’t give up control of the map. Arena FPS are too oppressive to new players to be popular again without some serious innovation.
Nah man he's way too lazy and doesn't give a fuck for that. If every react youtuber automated their react content with AI, he'd be the last one to do it.
@@kopzz That's why I said "their hardest to not let it live" instead of "their hardest to kill it" Valve is killing TF2 with neglect, when they have the resources to make it one of the top eSports.
@@dazeen9591 I don't think TF2 has esport potential. It's the same as Overwatch. It's a casual game that has mechanics that can ruin competitive games.
@@chikin6146 Every pvp game has esports potential, casual or not. It's just that producers ruin their games by forcing esports into their game instead of letting it grow by itself.
@@chikin6146 I'm not a TF2 player, but my son is, and I dont really have any issues following along with whats going on, but yeah it would make for a rough watch for total outsiders. It is funny though, so it's maybe endearing enough to hook people? I dunno
@@TrekoGames it might sound unrelated in the way he words it or in the environment of his stories compared to the points he is relating to, but the concept is generally similar and he is comparing his life experiences to the points in videos that resonate with him the most. you're basically saying he's a full schizophrenic 😂 for example, he doesn't need to play COD and buy a bunch of cosmetics in that game to know the gaming industry is rampant with these things; because he plays WOW and other games that have the exact same monetization schemes. Vastly different games that might not relate but share the same mechanics and concepts. Just an example. Your perception of his life experience and how he relates them to his react content is simply a perception. If you can't understand the point he's trying to make, move on and try to relate your own experiences to the video he's watching to form your own opinions. Stop trying to ride on whatever Asmon or any other streamer has to say about a given topic and form your own opinions.
my complaint would be balancing. Many publishers constantly try to balance their game for high end pvp setups in teams. issues are 1) they fail anyway 2) a perfectly balanced game doesnt allow any deviation in tactic and its all about execution 3) its balancing that disadvantages 99,9% of players for the benefit of 0.1%
The biggest problem is that no game designed for esports can compensate for is that what makes a game a good esport and what makes a game fun are often at odds with each other. A big reason why i stopped playing over watch was because a lot of the characters that I liked to play as (like hanzo and Hammond) weren’t considered good in the overall meta and I got berated for using them
eSports and streaming are major double edged swords in recent gaming. They create hype, content, and communities for games. But they also have pushed multiplayer games into sweat fest regardless if it's ranked or casual.
A thing Valve does invest in with their big esports game, CSGO and Dota2, is they have excellent spectator modes. You can start up Dota 2, pick any live match and watch it in "observer mode". There is also a lot of post-match support where data is fed into sites like dotabuff and you can pull up a Match ID and look at the stats and performance of all players. You can download the match and get a (literal) "replay" where you can step through each move and click sent/received. I joke that I'm still active in Dota 2 but "I watch way more than I play". Having robust spectator modes has helped keep me in Dota 2 even if I can't play the way I did a decade ago.
First reaction before watching the video is that i 100% agree with this. Company based eSports are an issue. Community based eSports, like back what it used to be, was better. eSports and its variations affect a lot of the mainstream gaming industry, from MMOs, FPS to RTS. Community based eSports but company supported can work so long as the company doesnt have any real pull in how things happen.
"Your experience is made worse by others" and the push for esports is what killed HoTS imo. The game felt good, the characters were well designed and hit character fantasy out of the Park but because all xp was shared and there was such limited individual skill expression compared to DOTA or LoL, bad players always just felt like anchors and made the game miserable. I know other MoBAs suffer this to an extent but at least in those if you're good you have the potential to carry whereas in HoTS you're literally held back by your team.
I don't think the problem is esports themselves. It's the air of competition where everyone feels like need to get the best of everything and play the most meta way possible. As result people play the game not because they're having fun, but because they feel like they "need" to get the furthest. Gaming for fun has been phased out and replaced by gaming for potential income/competition
Aoe2 has one of the best e sports communities. It’s grown from prize pools of 2k to 200k in 7 years. The players and casters are all so friendly and accessible. Would recommend anyone to check it out.
The "lose low end players" situation happened to me with Overwatch, they kept nerfing the hero I wanted to play, over and over and over to balance "high end play", until I got fed up and quit playing the game entirely.
Average junkrat enjoyer feel your pain. I quit bc I quit all blizz games but I was getting sick of the nerfs to anyone I enjoyed playing. Valorant did the same thing killed viper for me.
Turning gaming in to a career really has ruined all multiplayer competitive games. Streaming just to stream is fine, but streaming to win tournaments has saturated the gaming community with super sweaty people who’s lives truly depend on it, when others just want to have fun :(
i think really the fundamental problem with esports is that the high end players dont want or enjoy the same things as the casual players and the viewers the main example im thinking of us starcraft, sc2 probably is the single best competitive experience in terms of high end balancing, theres basically never a non viable race at the highest echelon of gameplay, and the amount of skill expression in sc2 is unrivaled in any game but for the viewers and casual players its arguably one of the most confusing and intense things u could try to watch and understand, and even if you think you understand it you likely dont really because those players are playing 5 games of 7d chess at the same time
thank you, it does have the imo slight problem of really understanding why someone wins/loses, even some casters arnt very good at it, but the skill ceiling/speed allows amazing things to be possible and sure i could nvr hope to play like any pro sc2 players BUT THATS WHY IM WATCHING! its actually something that impresses me and when every second matters i watch every second :)
Its Amazing that so many Developers cant grasp the simple fact that to make any game really competetive it has to have an pick up and play appeal with a semi high complexity. As you stated Titles like Rocket League, Counter Strike, Street Fighter etc. just gained such popularity because everybody could just pick up a controller and play with a friend. you push a few buttons and you do something. the concept of COMBOS in fighting games was basically a "glitch" before the developers integrated that abuse in its own system. Pure trial and error has to be possible and has to be simplistic fun
Even Starcraft 2 has balance changes. Last year Ghosts were Op, but now nerfed. Same thing with Void Rays a while ago. There are imbalances that changes. But I agree that usually they go for perfect balance
I remember time when League of Legends eSport hook me up. You play up to 3 wins. SKT been faceroll every tournament for like 5 years and felt like invincible team. Here comes i first watch SKT vs Samsung Finale. first 2 games, SKT roll over Samsung. Victory is within arms reach. 3rd game, SKT still on the roll. But, Samsung outplay SKT few times, turn over the table. won 3rd game, facerolled 4th game. 5th and final game, final game, was longest, everybody played safe, every minute counts. With some insane plays, SKT still came on top. That was some insane experience. WAY better then i ever felt watching regular sports. I was for an underdog Samsung. Next year, they came again, and wiped the floor with SKT. I don't watch it anymore, don't have time for that. But i believe that it helps Gaming. Just by normalising gaming in general. Why i liked it i think, was That it's not just running around with a ball. There was strategies, teamwork, Action, Some insane outplays. Basically, more action then soccer, where you watch somebody chase balls for 90 hours or basketball where somebody throw a ball and it misses or not
The problem imo is that so many new games now, the devs (or suits who knows) wants them to be an e-sport. They try (and usually fail) to balance very complicated concepts and games that are designed for mass appeal to fit into this hyper-competitive style and it doesn't work. It will never work. E-sports shouldn't be something that developers strive to create a game for, or if they do it should be a very niche market. E-sports is something that arose out of games that lend themselves well to competition, that are inherently balanced, and it should be that esports follows from a good game, not games chasing e-sports profits.
The point of eSports is not to have an eSports to watch The point is to make player feel competitive and increase the value or some kind of honor or pride for being good at competitive I know that eSports team need sponsor to manage a team but at the beginning of it didn't need to have a sponsor There maybe some individuals some team that want to become pro in the competition then later on the eSports get more stable more people to watch the game more prizes pools This is what happened to LOL at least
I don't know about ruined gaming in general. But E-sports have definitely ruined the whole PS4 era of fighting games for sure. This is the first time that fighting games weren't being made, or balanced, for people to just play them... they were being made, and balanced, for spectators at E-sports events. Fighting games launching with nothing but vs modes, since that's all that's needed for E-sports. Fighting games being filled to the brim with comeback mechanics, since E-sports spectators love seeing comebacks. It goes on, and on. But yeah, I've been saying for a couple of years now; E-sports has ruined fighting games. It's become all about "what do spectators want to see", rather than "what do people want to play". Street Fighter 6 seems like a bit of a reboot for the whole genre though. I played the closed beta, and the game is actually packed with content, and there is no comeback mechanic. So, I'm hoping after SFF6 launches in June, that it sets the trend for fighting games in the current generation. Because the PS4 E-sports era of fighting games has been pretty bad, Imo.
what games have a broken comeback mechanic on the ps4 era the only thing i can think of is mvc3 xfactor and that was like 2012 maybe tekkens rage but ehhhhh idk
@@rikibdgd4764 SF5 V trigger is a comeback mechanic, so is GBVS super sky bound arts. Dragon Ball Fighterz has 2 comeback mechanics lol. That's just 3 games off the top of my head. But there's also whole characters that have been designed as pretty much walking comeback mechanics... it's gone that far. Lowain has a super in GBVS that make him invulnerable for around 6-8 seconds, from frame 1 (meaning you can't prevent it if he has 1 frame to breath), and he can deal massive damage to you during that time including unblockable setups (it's his SSBA). Potemkin in Guilty Gear Strive has the highest health and highest damage in the game, combined with some of the fastest meter gain on offense and defense... put all that together and you got a character that's designed to get pounded until he's got 50% meter in every round and then the comeback that everybody was waiting for happens. there's other stuff too. but that's just off the top of my head, man. I think the comeback mechanic thing started with SF4. at least that's the earliest game I can remember that had it. compare that to SF3. if you're getting your ass kicked in that game, there's no comeback mechanic to save you. and I for one am so glad SF6 is going more in that direction. comeback mechanics are one of the weakest things to exist in fighting games. comebacks are only special when it's driven by player skill. it's just annoying when the comeback is basically the game's near guaranteed reward to the player that's losing.
@@lonnelwright318 i know comeback mechanics exist obviously but the point was overpowered comeback mechanics potemkin im not an expert on so i cant give my opinion that much but that sounds just like hes taking advantage of system mechanics which other characters can do dragon ball fighterz tho i can definitively say there isnt a broken comeback mechanic cause by good players spark is almost always used with 3 characters remaining to keep ur whole team alive and limit break is there to give a bit of extra dmg from the devs specifically because people just use spark at the start and even when u put the 2 together the damage doesnt linearly stack or anything
I think and this doesn’t apply to every game but youtube actually runs games, more specifically youtubers posting metas. Now people look up what is bis and you are basically going up against the same thing every corner you turn. It makes the gameplay stale and less organic. Like if we use cod as an example back then more people would use different loadout and now more people use the same loadout.
I am a fan of the "OG" style of e-sports. From back when they weren't called that. For example, fighting game tournaments. Oldschool Call of Duty or Halo tournaments. The type of competition where you see the players trash talking each other and it feels less like a spectacle and more like a nerdy gathering of really good players. Where the competitive scene adapts to the game and not the opposite. I think Starcraft in Korea started this tendency of televised (or streamed) high prize pool high production e-sportand honestly, that just no longer feels like gaming to me. That's why I still follow the FGC, although over the years it has gained a bit more of an e-sports vibe (especially the bigger games like Street Fighter and Tekken), the core of it is still very much the "arcade fighting game tournament" spirit.
when you have game companies making changes that affects the entire player base just to bolster the esportability for sub 1% of the player base, yes esports have 100% ruined a lot of gaming.. but i feel its more so the "scoreboard" aspect to gaming, like global leaderboards leads to less fun and more try hard, and try hards are usually the most vocal and since they are both vocal and actively play the game the most, one would assume " they know best " ( usually gaming companies ) which usually leads to game changing updates for the rest of the more "casual" player base leading to a feeling have the game ( how you liked it ) ruined by esports, cause the wants/needs of a "casual" player compared to esport try hard elitists are too drastically different
rip heroes of the storm. i don't care what you all have to say about that game or blizzard. i liked it a lot. game had a lot of potential and as always it was milked dry by farmer jackob Economi esports. rest in peace.
the bit mentioned @12:00 "it's not esports its meta gaming" Yes but meta gaming affects esports more. Because in esports if you dont try to beat the meta you will lose. In elden ring I did not use moonveil, I don't know if I ever found those items. for most of the game I used a cold-uchigatana. But to get into esports with a low tier or currently countered character (by the current meta) then the level of skill required goes way beyond, still not unachievable but it becomes such a wall
Absolutely true. Companies obsess over what's best only for the top .01% of their players and make decisions that benefit that only tiny majority. The rest of the community feels alienated and the game's player base shrivels.
I don't think this is true in the way you think about it. Balance feedback from experienced players can still be positive. It's the lack of options that kills player base. Rocket League is one example in which the balance are in fully shaped by its esports, but still provides enough casual experience for the low-end players to enjoy. Fighting games are also like this but now even Street Fighter 6 adds more "just for fun" game modes. Companies don't obsess about what the pro players are thinking, they are obsessed with the "profitability" of esports without understanding how it needs to be formed first.
Esports ruined competitive for honor, the first major tourneys Ubisoft hosted were devolved and instead of utilizing game knowledge and reaction time to outplay your opponent it just came down to which character had the best cheese. The first finals was two Shugoki (basically sumo wrestler with a club) charging at each other, not even locking on to their opponent
The entire issue is that Esports bleed toxic waste into the normal casual gaming. Biggest gear grinder is people calling others trash talking skill in public matches. It's like people that want to make a competition out of everything, in order to gained self-perceived worth in exchange for the general enjoyment of those around them Trying to balance something that is competitive is like trying to mix oil and water. Being balanced Implies equal chances to win, when competition means someone has to be better regardless of balance. No matter how hard you balance something, there will always be that one idiot that considers the very concept of skill to be unbalanced.
That's not Esports fault. People want to have fun and not winning isn't fun. So if you suck, you ruin most peoples fun. Obviously they gonna flame you for it.
@@migueltucabron but most of them suck? They tend to talk the most shit and inflate their ego, but in principle they're really not good at the game either.
If you actually quit a game over trash talk, you're just a sensitive crybaby and the problem lies with you, not the game. Consider it a learning experience for the real world, because you need it.
@@RobotMasterSplash That is just not relative at all. You can't just trash talk someone in person for free lol. You'd get your ass kicked. You can't trash talk co-workers, you'll get fired. In gaming there is no consequences, in real life there is. Its not a real world, it has no significance to what happens in real life. People don't act like that in person in majority numbers. They act like that because they think they're safe. People should have the choice to leave a game they don't wanna deal with toxicity. Do you pay their bills?
Esports didn't ruin gaming but games considering esports in their game design did. Build a game that is good for everyone and esports can still form around it.
I'd go a step further and say more access and use of the internet, specifically social media platforms encourage exchanging of information at a greater rate in return on monetization that led to increased meta gaming thus leading to degenerate esports mentality. People seek to exploit games now in order to gain notoriety on the internet in order to sell that information using advertising platforms. Gaming is a business in all aspects now, and if everything is worth money, then people will destroy a game from top to bottom trying to find anything about it to expose it to the internet for money. Money encourages players to hyper accelerate the learning curves of games which leads the falling out of a casual audience in a scorched earth manner. Figuring out a game and theories/ideas/wonder spawned from it are the best moments of games. Meta gaming is a shift that comes too fast now and players lose a large interest if they are immediately pressured to no longer try to figure anything out but just do as they are told by the data already collected.
lol this is becoming a huge issue for people in Wrath classic because everyone's BiS items in phase 2 are either yogg algalon or hard mode bosses and everyone is shitting bricks. Nobody knows how to stat compare anymore The meta gaming min/maxing is SUPER annoying.
This video could have even used other old game examples from other genres such as Starcraft Brood War or Age of Empires 2. Brood War had a big Korean tournament scene and with no patches the metagame had shifted multiple times with no patches. Age of Empires survived nearly two decades without dev support and a similar shift in metagame during that time. Sometimes balance need not be achieved by giving more playable options. It can be done by changing the rules of play by changing the arena of play. Of course one could argue, as in the video, that many of our beloved games didn't bother making all playable options viably balanced at a higher level. One thing i like about AoE2, especially now that it once again has dev support, is a part of their balancing isn't about making each civ viable all the time, but giving them niches where they can be viable. So on some maps a weak civ might be the overly powerful option and other civs, who are often otherwise considered op, might be seen as ok at best. And thus there doesn't need to be a constant focus on tweaking the civs when all that is needed is tweaking the field of play.
There's multiple things that have ruined gaming, eSports has made the scene really toxic but is just 1 cog of the machine that is eating up the gaming community
Same can be said about streamers at times tbh. Noticed that in EFT. Obviously the devs catered mainly to the streamers, as they are the ones bringing in new players etc. But since those streamers play crazy amounts of hours they hit the "end" (missions, levels, gear etc) very quickly. Then they start getting bored an pleading the devs for wipes. Which completely ruined it for me wanting to play the game casually here and there.
I mean tarkov has some huge issues but if you think 9month wipes isnt long enough to get to level 40-50 and have a decent stash id say your playing the game wrong
what you have to remember is that most teams get their entry fee into a league by sponsors such as advertisers, and yes its true that those companies are at a loss if their team they backed doesn't win, it's still all about the ad space. Look at Team Liquid in lol, they had a huge sponsor with Alienware, peripherals, and other gaming related products that viewers will ultimately by. It's nothing new, every sport has a sponsor to participant. With the growth of gaming in the last decade, esports will follow along. TBH I often look for the esport of a new game to come out before I try most games, I would rather play something that seems tried and tested and fits into my style of games.
Competitive gaming, imo, has caused gaming to become more and more of a job, or profession, where instead of monetary compensation, we get social inclusion instead. It’s shocking how many people I know that practice on aim-trainers or other programs regularly, to play a competitive game, recreationally.
As a streamer/esports person, this is accurate. You go in thinking play for fun, then you get demolished by a pro or "try-hard," which causes you to train and take on their mentality so you won't have to be beaten so badly again, thus creating a perpetual loop because you now have to play on a higher level and end up going against casuals, which harms the community and makes more people have less fun and make ot a job.
Yea, an esports video, talking about balance, prize pool and community support does not feature the biggest example of a community sponsored tournament. A huge oversight.
What they should have done with overwatch is lock hero choice, but give them a choice of alternate powers or attacks. Don't give Rine a sniper but rather then the air slash he throws a moly. to deny space. Rather then his shield he gets a smaller one with way more hp and regen. Making it less protective for allies and easier to flank the shield. Make it so zen can have an ult version of his heal and amp to just hover in an aoe effecting people but for less effect or range. Do it how tf2 did it. Rather then making it a swap meta, make it be an item meda which is much easier to balance. Hell even do slightly different kinds of alts that doesn't disrupt what you expect from the hero like having a massive lock on arrow with Hanzo that follows targets for a set time.
That actually sounds like something you should talk to a therapist about, feeling guilt whenever you try to relax or enjoy yourself is really unhealthy and not a normal "growing up" thing.
@@daroaminggnome Nah. That is definitely something the OP should work on with a pro. If they have time to play a game they should not feel guilty for playing a game. Sounds like me when I get depressed.
Yup. You need a good, fun game before you can have a competitive community. It then follows that you need a comp community before you can have organized play, which can then lead to an esport. You can’t manufacture an esport, it doesn’t work - you gotta grow one.
Almost none the reasons he cited were really the reason why eSports were killing the gaming. The real reason is simply the focus on competitive gaming in detriment to casual gaming, most player of most games are casuals, they don't care about being competitive, ranks, elos. They only want to have fun, and most games today are focusing too much into being competitive multiplayer games
I don't know if her reads yt comments but riot let Valorant have free franchise slots and instead stipend the teams 600k and then gave them a chance to earn another 400k across the season. I think this shows the passion that they have for this game to thrive comes before the need to make income (although the skins are expensive af). I can see valorant having another massive blow up soon if everything goes well. I hope you enjoy your time playing it Asmon, thank you for your time.
@Excellent It's their event so yeah that would be their right. You don't get to demand entry to a tournament, if the venue kicks you out then you leave. Every video game tournament in history works this way, as they should. This isn't some state operated affair that has to be open to all, stop being ridiculous.
If you look at chess, it is a really good tournament game. Every failure leaves you with a permanent penalty on pieces and the comback resulting in that will be even more spectacular. Overwatch for example turns that paradigm, people are the pieces. This is not inherently bad - if you look at counterstrike it works out, the reason is CS is very volatile quick and reaction based and actually based around player direct skill. A single player can turn around a 1v5 because the actions are volatile with high chance of fatality. The reason it works is because the playing field is balanced around volatility. The same goes for chess, the different roles of the pieces do not change much about that. Overwatch does something, that is imo really bad, it combines the two scenarios emphasizing the worst outcome by introducing different roles, removing volatility introducing respawn timer and create a balance between the roles and not between team oportunity, also dragging out matches in that regard. You can not win the round by yourself especially if you have chosen a tank or healer for example. I think this is one of the reasons why the idea which games that can be rated as actual e-sports is so warped.
I can understand esports, but I genuinely hate them because it treats casual fans like chopped liver, and the characters are seen more as tools rather than as characters.
Funny I actually was debating this the other day. Esports I think came 15yrs too soon. We are still in the in between of people who didn’t and don’t use PCs and those who do. You take that along side gaming having streamers near boost or kill games, and gaming companies becoming more corporate… it’s just a bad mix to try and make it a big money making machine in the middle of all this. I don’t think it’s bad for gaming - I think it came at a bad time.
I feel that the city thing with the ow league was the only reason I was remotely interested. Only problem was that I am from Toronto and that team sucks. I'm sure the reason why e-sports can't really take off is because there's very hard to get good betting payouts
Even Starcraft BW that came out 20 years ago does not have perfect balance, there is different style and some races that are better at different stages of the game. The thing is progamer have adapted all those small dent in the balance to their advantage as well as the balance vary greatly dependings on the map that changes from tournament to tournament and player (usualy)have veto in their map choices
We're still in the wild west of e-sports, a few have stood out but it's still very much an open playing field to find out what people are willing to watch. Also, games are not continual, meaning there is always a squeal that we have to switch over to, unlike a more traditional sport that is the same year after year with only players changing. Once we get to a true persistent game with a competitive format we'll see a more settled e-sports scene.
4:00 the original SC also kinda counters that argument. Sure, they had SK sponsors, but blizzard basically didn't support that brood war esport scene at all iirc
@@Ruffian12345 halo 3 was lit. Was a different community, but that shit popped the fuck off. Halo is a really good eSports game because of its equal starts and fighting for weapons/power ups. Good old arena style shooter. Too bad they were not ready for a live service with an unfinished game with infinite. Once they get on their feet, it can be one of the best eSports shooters for a more mainstream audience.
I think it's better for a company to come out and support their games esport scene after the community has shown that it is something they want, trying to make a game that will become and esport is effectively asking for it to fail cause there's no guarantee that the community supports it. Community first, company later.
This is why the FGC will be the king of esports. Because any player can enter an Evo tournament and compete against the best in the world. No franchise fees, or sponsorships or teams required.
just tfw i play online multiplayer games like a single player game, its when the game forces me to team up with people that i no longer like to play it unless its a very small part of the game. In general though, i just like to do everything myself in a game, grind everything, collect everything, power myself up until i can melt a boss in under 30s. That's the type of game that i enjoy playing, while i enjoy watching people beat up on each other in other games so im more likely to watch esports.
Like Asmongold has said before, the game developers are like God. It’s not player’s responsibilities to filter/ limit how they play the game. It’s the developers fault if there is a mechanic that can be abused in the game. Why? Because they can actually fix it. It’s not esports fault, it’s simply human nature to optimize something as much as possible. Just look at the world around you. Forget about tactics in a video game, you’re living in a era where can literally run a simulation through your computer along with tons of other technological advancements. So regardless of esports or not, people would’ve naturally found the “meta” way to play game, and some would abuse it for their own benefit and some might not. But that’s just bound to happen. It’s the game developers who are to blame because it’s their world and they’re literally god.
If you think that not having esports would fix the problem you’re wrong. Because there’s also content creators out their that don’t compete in competitions that spread information, recommendations, tips, tricks, tutorial, etc. every single day. If you really want to point a finger at something that “made players switch to meta gaming” then blame the entire internet. Because even then if there was no content creators, then there would be forums. And so on an so forth. Eventually it could even boil down to the spread of information by word of mouth.
League of legends was at it's most fun when it was not played competitively on a commercial stage. When E$port$$$ got involved it all went downhill. Now it's catering to the E$port$ scene and they can't seem to attract new players while losing veteran players at the same time. The game simply isn't fun anymore, they built it so it resembles a job...
Unfortunately a negative side effect of every game nowadays being competitive is that it has completely eliminated casual play. I can't just sit down and play an online game for fun anymore without getting stomped on by sweaty ass players that are trying to mimic their favorite streamers. I play games for enjoyment, I don't care about being the best at a game. Unfortunately though that means casual players like me ultimately get pushed out of online gaming entirely because we cannot enjoy the games we want to play anymore. For example, I used to love Halo, it used to be my favorite game series of all time before all this competitive eSports shit took over, and I used to be pretty good at it. Nowadays since it has become more competitive since Microsoft and 343 has injected eSports into the series, I can't even sit down and enjoy a casual laid back match without constantly getting wiped by sweaty ass players. Unfortunately as a result of this, I have now come to hate Halo because I'm just not enjoying it anymore and all I feel is rage when I play it.
I personally feel competition for Pokémon ruined the fun. It has to be about catching them all, not min maxing stats and repetitive breeding for traits. I went to college and people bragged about winning the campus tournament.
the thing is...its been like 5-7 years since all of you tried to force this "e-sport" name. And still...to this day NOBODY is taking it as a serious sport. Not even the ones competing takes it seriously. Next time, do your own thing and stop calling it any form of sport.
I feel like apex legends has drastic meta gaming. The top tier players who are actively in the esport scene select certain legends because of community feedback around how good they are. Within the apex universe. The characters don’t compare each other. Yet the community does which drives a wedge in how accessible it is because if you aren’t playing an easy to use “overpowered” legend then you’re destined to not reach the higher levels of play
Sport, in general, is popular, in part, because of it's simplicity: any person not familiar with a sport may not understand all the rules and technicalities, but they can follow the general principle, e.g., ball goes in goal is good.
22:45 actually reginald and hotshotgg did that first back in the own3d tv days IIRC TSM was the first "streamers" house, unlike older organizations that relied on sponsors, TSM and CLG raised their funds from content creation
Most of the funding for tsm in the early days came from the tsm website being insanely popular. Back in the early days it was THE place to go to look up guides for champions. This was just one of a handful of extremely popular websites reginald owned. The content creation they did was almost entirely for the purpose of keeping the tsm brand in the spotlight. The content they produced is what kept the fans chanting "TSM TSM TSM" in the early days. The websites reginald owned brought in the money.
I personallz think that role-q plazed a big part in killing the popularity of Overwatch1. A majority of the playerbase only has a limited hero pool that is spread across all three roles. If they are locked in to play one role but the enemy team picks a comp to counter them, chances are that the person who could swap to counter the counter can not do so because that hero is part of a different role pool. I personaly played during the Triple-Tank-meta and as much as i hated it I can see the validity of that playstyle. I know they brought back standard-q but having both role-q aswell as standard-q just spreads the playerbase to thin and divides it.
FPS e-sport meh, League MEH, you leave my Fighting Game Championships TF alone bro that shit is hottness. That side of E-sports knows how to do it and the game devs involved are good at making their product very balanced so that there is almost always variety at the higher level of skill
With esports and orgs, there's people playing the same game for 16 hours a day for years on salary. Devs start to develop the games around the pro scene and the casual player ends up having less and less enjoyment. All the ingame lineups or strategies, meta pro builds, and stuff. Then everyone demands teammates to follow these things and the diversity, creativity, and fun is stripped away. The most current example to me is LoL removing all the fun modes, event modes, 3v3, ruining aram, and item diversity. It feels like they are trying to force one method of play in correlation to esports.
Smash Melee is interesting because the players put in the work. Puff became a top tier character because HBox figured out how to make it happen, not because she was patched. Currently, there's a resurgence of Yoshi - he's getting good results in tournaments and online play, and it's because somebody put in the work to show that he actually competes, not because it's been patched in. The point, I think was that the core game play, rather than "the meta," is solid. Melee, Starcraft, Counterstrike, Rocket League, even Valorant to a lesser extent - they all rely on core game play, rather than flash and roster diversity and the extras on top of the game. The excitement comes because the best strategy is to be good at the game, rather than to use the most powerful thing in the game as determined by the most recent patch that forced a change in the meta because it was deemed imbalanced. People learn and adapt, and if the developers allow that (or don't care enough to disallow it) then the meta evolves on its own. I mean, look at Chess. Blizz or Riot would probably nerf the Queen because it's OP.
Esports only exacrebate the problems that emerge in all games from instrumental play. This is to say that "metas" and a "correct" way to play a competitive game will always arise from the community itself, especially once the game's novelty wears out a bit. However, by making a game an Esport, the producers and hosts are actively participating in the dissemination of such "metas".
I think that corporate expected "e-sports" to become a local phenomenon, where people would hold small tournaments. But this was a completely unrealistic expecation. The core-experience in a tournament is simply to play the game against some people. This experience is already available in simple multiplayer. If you are not in the top 0.001 percent of the best players in the world, then nobody cares about watching your tournament.
A note on the BMW sponsorship and the age thing. Even if the viewers are mostly too young to buy a BMW now, they are impressionable. At a minimum, it's brand exposure, BMW might be remembered by some of the young viewers as being "cool" for sponsoring their favorite game, and so BMW might see dividends on that sponsorship years down the road.
Another reason you don't see Mario Cart esport is the item system. The item system pretty much solely benefiting lower placed drivers. Ie the last second bullet bill finishes while first is stuck with coins.
The connection between streamers, esports, and how it creates a "everyone needs to be a pro mentality" is the source of it all.
Exactly, people have lost sight of the fact that games were created just for fun. Unfortunately sports fans wormed their way into gaming and now it's treated like professional sports. You're expected to perform at an unrealistic level or else you're considered "trash".
@@derekbateman7378 Don't blame sports fans for this, that was done by *gamers* alone. It's not like the Soccer fans muscled all the other dudes out of competitive multiplayer, and took it for themselves. It was the groups of *gamers* that wanted to have the next big *insert name here* tournament. It's how EVO started, some of the first HALO championships, etc. When people started getting paid for having viewership whilst playing video games, the first stone was laid in the foundation of "If you aren't better than ____ amount of other streamers, you're not going to get anything out of this." As with almost everything else in this world, the people that will either make or break the gaming culture, will *be* the gamers.
The sad thing is that the whole world operates on such a base more than ever. Rush everything, overoptimize everything, and be ready to adapt to a climate enforced by a goddamn statistic that shows a higher percentage of profit/success.
Not even art or sports escaped this. Its numbers numbers numbers until the end of days.
streamers and esports have essentially ruined gaming to levels that are beyond repair
@@celticfox well said, i am a old player, at the times or arcades, gaming was just fun, not a career, it was not a job, this is how changed and certainly becomes boring.
I think it's more the issue of games being designed FOR eSports in mind, rather than creating a fantastic game a lot of players want to compete against each other in.
I think that's totally fine, as long as they didn't try to push really hard by immediately investing in big events post-launch.
This happens a lot because they just think it'd be a good way to market the game, seemingly forgot that events needs an audience first.
@@faradise3819 Basically the problem Street Fighter 5 had they were ALL in on esports yet the game didn't work for 3 months at launch and then people constantly saying they hate the game yet only played it for the money
@@ExeErdna I'm glad it's finally in a good place now. And that SF6 seems to focus more on more casual shit to do for those kinds of people.
@@notimeforcreativenamesjust3034 Yeah since the casuals got burned badly any other IP would be dead if it pulled what SF5 did. They for sure learned the casuals need something instead of getting bopped in ranked mode.
That's definitely part of the problem. Developers have only a limited time to work on a game, so any time they waste on a spectator mode for e-Sports, or balancing stuff for pros is time wasted on making a good game for the vast majority of players. And Heroes of the Storm shows exactly why building a game is a lost cause, the pros won't play the game the way the developers think they will. For example it book Blizzard by surprise how pros usually had 1 player soak 2 lanes at once while everyone else had a 4 man fight in the third lane.
The problem is that for many games the eSports scene is completely artificial and dependent on the developer. The moment they pull the plug is the moment the eSport scene is dead. You need it to form organically and independent of the developer for it to be real.
This is the golden comment. eSports was always community run. Whether it's CS, Quake, and even old CoD on PC. The game is just good, and a scene develops organically, without a developer pushing updates in the background or propping up a scene by throwing money at it. CS and Quake were never meant to be competitive games, they were just great and a scene developed.
At this point, people are begging lord gaben to give some shit to cs lol
If that's the case, the scenery shouldn't exists in the first place
@@christiansmemefactory1513 pretty much. People shit on smash bros. in general for being a party game, and its base being...unique but its competitive scene has been going strong, completely do to the community despite Nintendo.
A game has to be fun before its competitive.
@@christiansmemefactory1513 People even made Quake ]|[ Arena compatible with newer OS... And this game is a hell of a ride, which even surprises players, who have never played it before with a difficulty they weren't expecting.
The lifetime after spawn can be between 1 to 30 seconds
Another issue is that is they really, REALLY want to push the game to become an E-Sport, they must at least let the game to naturally evolve for at least a Year. Once players find the meta and organice around it, then you can push for the competitive scene fully.
A lot of companies make the mistake of taking too much control. Community and passion are incredibly important and need to evolve organically. This has ruined many competetive scenes. Just look at Nintendo and Blizzard. Companies need to listen and support communities and build with them instead of just launching their own tournament and partnering with advertisers...
Waiting for a year is too long for them XD
This is basically what the video said
People played and still play games that don't get patches and have metagames. Like how Melee was brought up in the video: people have had 22 years of evolving metagame. It never stopped being a beloved competitive game. The stability that comes from a game being "finished" means the players have to change, instead of the game.
A lot of companies also don't like the meta that arises. When one tactic dominates, they tend to try and "balance" it because of a few whinos who aren't as good at the game as they think they are. But in highly competitive videogames, there will always be a best strategy and trying to balance to eliminate that leads to a boring game for everyone else.
I think something that is really understated when it comes to game balance is the fact that games like Starcraft and CSGO a lot of the balance comes from the map
Starcraft is the best rts
SCBW is pretty incredible, the races counter each other in a triangle, but there are still meta developments even recently in this dinosaur game.
There's a reason why Dust 2 is one of, if not, the best map ever made for a competitive game.
@@Grayewick Its one of the worst cs maps in terms of competitve play...
@@NokianEdustus it sure as hell paved the way for future map designs though. Doesn't negate the fact that it's a pioneer.
AoE2 doesn't have a huge esport scene but its consistent, continually growing and almost completely supported by the viewers, players and casters. Only in recent years has devs come back to support the game or outside companies bother putting on tournaments for the game. Mainly Red Bull. But I don't think it is big because its not being artificially inflated. People need to learn that many of the popular esports aren't big because they're actually big but because they're artificially being inflated for hopes of future returns. Artificial creation of a hype train.
Capitalism lol
@@asdergold1 fym the pursuit of profit, fake it till you make it.
@@asdergold1 actually, really. Capitalism is the reason for forcing a game into the eSports status
Trying to force eSports certainly ruined HotS which is a shame because it wasn't a terrible game.
It wasn't terrible but it wasn't good either
Loved Hots for when you wanted to play League or Dota but 'relaxed', was great playing characters ive known for years too
@@ououkuaipao I disagree. I thought HoTS was very enjoyable to watch. The action was quick, maps were compact and easy to follow, and the Blizzard casters had passion and excitement in their calls.
Still play Hots often because it is fun and casual to play but I didn't watch the esport. I almost never play SC2 these days but I look the content very often.
Hots is an amazing casual game. I play it
SC2 is an amazing difficult game. I watch it.
@@ououkuaipao I have spent hundreds of hours playing and watching others play HotS; imo, it's the best MOBA. Matches don't last that long; there's constant action because of the objective; everyone in the team levels up at the same time, so support players can also have fun; there are so many different maps and so many different abilities and characters, and you can modify abilities to make it better; you don't have to worry about last hits; it's just a super fun game. People hate this game for no freaking reason.
As someone who did sport science for a bit, this is actually very similar to physical sports too, but i think its usually forgotten because of how long ago it was when it was only kept going through passion for the sport, like back in the 1800s and early 1900s by university students etc, but something which is definitely missing and overlooked in these esports which is in these huge physical sports is locally run grassroot competitions and projects, that is how you keep a sport alive.
Also yes, games need to change, but not too big of a change too often, and needs to be accesible to as many people as possible. This is definitely the hardest parts for e-sports, but even physical sports do have vast changes and some stuff gets ‘nerfed’, changed or removed/banned, Athletics is a huge example with Tracks, the Javelin, Spikes and shoes, and swimming with certain swim suits.
I think the biggest issue with many things such as metagames/etc is as a society we applied scientific method to EVERYTHING in life in order to MIN/MAX society. We see the same issue in regular sports - homeruns in baseball/strikeouts, three pointers in baseketball/etc and as the meta defines the sport, it makes things predictable and kinda boring because there is a 'best' strategy and very little variety which isn't much fun to watch. We started creating metas for everything in life as a way to max wins/profits/etc and it's tough to go back from that once you found the 'best strat' in a game or in life. Hence why real estate was the dominant investment strategy for example.
Yeah, sometimes it exciting when its first used, but once it becomes meta, it gets boring because no one does anything else, another example i say is high jump, which shows this perfectly, when the frosby flop was first done, it was exciting as it was something new, now everyone does it.
You are 100%
Yep I was thinking, would it even be possible to create a game that couldn't have guides written about it? You could make just about every variable an RNG and there would still be a 'best strat'.
@@dontcallthemliberals3316 Even with minecraft, people act like 'everyone uses iron golem farms'
@@zarrg5611because almost everyone does
Games that are forced into e-sports or designed with them in mind seem to inevitably fail miserably, whereas the ones that an esports scene naturally evolved out of seem to be the best off.
Rocket league still going
Ummm Valorant????
@@macrokamusic5971 Rocket League is too easy to become an esport. It's easy to understand, takes pure skill, and little to no balances required. It's simply soccer with cars.
@@varnix1006 ya I hope it lasts a long time, favorite e sport by far
I’d argue this is because what those games are almost always designed for is hard-core players, and to make the game fun to play a lot. But often times the spectator experience suffers for that. Games like StarCraft:BroodWar or ClassicWOW are a lot simpler, and can be more fun to watch.
I wouldn't say it's "ruined" gaming but not every multiplayer game needs to be a perfectly balanced competetive esport. Many devs nowadays tend to make the mistake of changing or removing fun features from a game to cater to the esport fans who can sometimes be very narrow minded.
Yes! Game need to stay as it is and just let the community run the competitive scenes. Devs on the other hand just need to focus to improve the server netcode and fix the bugs on it and sponsoring the prize money upon the community event is an extra help for community like how ID Software used to do during the earliest Quake event in 90s that nobody talked about
this; i think it's crazy that riot games keeps trying to make LoL's main mode work as both a competitive & casual gaming environment. the game needs more casual game modes so that casual players have something more fun & relaxing to play while the main competitive mode can have more focused balance changes for its competitive audience. just having a ranked mode doesn't do much when it inevitably shares changes catered towards a casual playerbase. it just seems as though they don't want to put in the resources to make that happen, aside from the recent exception/addition of arena 2v2v2v2.
The chats on like a 1-2 minute delay compared to the video
When multiplayer games are developed to be good games first and foremost, and an organic "esport" scene develops around it instead of one that was planned out. I think that's always more entertaining.
That's how it was in the beginning.
I agree that "meta" gameplay is an issue, it often ruins the experience of games because players more or less stop playing the game for what it has to offer in favor of playing a style that a particular pro player or guide has advertised. This homogenizes the experience in pvp content because often these styles are very easy to execute and yet demanding of specific responses. Overall what happens if you want to play your own style is you will be pushed down the rating ladder and that just incentivizes more and more players to give up playing their own styles.
Streaming ruined games
@@ogeezy8870 wanting to win instead of play ruined games
@@alexkozliayev9902people have been playing to win as long as games have been around in any from.
@@jordanbugni8931 yes they do. That's why they cheated and ruined games for others
No one played bangalore for 4 years, now she's on every team because pros realized the smoke negates aim assist. People just want free wins to pad the ego.
Watching people never mentioning FPS Arena when talking about esports, made me painfully realise that FPS Arena dried out too early and that I'm getting older. Games like Quake are absolutely amazing to watch, they are not hard to understand and have a good balance of "dead" moments and action packed segments. It's a shame that the industry let the genre die because it was too much for the "casual" gamer to handle.
I think refusing to evolve did too like as far as i know quake champions still uses old bunny hop mechanics and if you want to learn you have to practice a lot i grew up with quake 3 and i still suck at it then i played a source mod called bear party adventure and in that mod you just have to hold space to bunny hop and for a simple change it makes the game much better and casual friendly most arena fps games are incredibly menacing for new players still fortnite and overwatch or apex has some of that arena fps dna in them so theres still place for arena fps they just need to learn that instead of new quake make a convenient quake so a good player can do cool stuff and a new player can try to do that stuff without eating shit
@@cloudnine2330Quake Live tried this in one of the patches and it brought the game back to life briefly before going back down to even worse than where it was before, autohop and load outs aren’t the silver bullet. The big problem with arena FPS is a similar issue fighting games run into, the skill gaps are very wide between noobs and veterans and the veterans absolutely demolish the noobs.
At least in fighting games the roster can make the vets relearn a bit to level the playing field somewhat. Then there’s also the fact that in arena FPS you can’t see your opponent’s stack so you could be fairly close in skill to your opponent and still go -1/20 because your opponent doesn’t give up control of the map. Arena FPS are too oppressive to new players to be popular again without some serious innovation.
Unreal tournament in this gen would be an insaneeeeee esport
Asmon has so much content now that he could easily just program an AI to automate his entire channel
maybe he already has o.0 0.o
@@Stain3610 That's what I was thinking!
@@matt_grossman Haha! It could be possible
Nah man he's way too lazy and doesn't give a fuck for that. If every react youtuber automated their react content with AI, he'd be the last one to do it.
@@SeanSMST Honestly, I believe you
TF2 will never die but Valve sure tries their hardest to not let it live.
You are probably confused Nintendo with Valve 😂 Valve didn’t do much for TF2 but Nintendo is actively trying to kill its own games.
@@kopzz That's why I said "their hardest to not let it live" instead of "their hardest to kill it"
Valve is killing TF2 with neglect, when they have the resources to make it one of the top eSports.
@@dazeen9591 I don't think TF2 has esport potential. It's the same as Overwatch. It's a casual game that has mechanics that can ruin competitive games.
@@chikin6146 Every pvp game has esports potential, casual or not. It's just that producers ruin their games by forcing esports into their game instead of letting it grow by itself.
@@chikin6146 I'm not a TF2 player, but my son is, and I dont really have any issues following along with whats going on, but yeah it would make for a rough watch for total outsiders. It is funny though, so it's maybe endearing enough to hook people? I dunno
Asmon: "lets see what this guy has to say"
Also Asmon: *Pauses the video immediately to tell us a story he remembered*
I don't mind that especially in a reaction video because I do want to hear his opinions. I'm not here to just watch the video lol.
@@faradise3819 but sometimes its completely unrelated
@@TrekoGames it might sound unrelated in the way he words it or in the environment of his stories compared to the points he is relating to, but the concept is generally similar and he is comparing his life experiences to the points in videos that resonate with him the most. you're basically saying he's a full schizophrenic 😂 for example, he doesn't need to play COD and buy a bunch of cosmetics in that game to know the gaming industry is rampant with these things; because he plays WOW and other games that have the exact same monetization schemes. Vastly different games that might not relate but share the same mechanics and concepts. Just an example. Your perception of his life experience and how he relates them to his react content is simply a perception. If you can't understand the point he's trying to make, move on and try to relate your own experiences to the video he's watching to form your own opinions. Stop trying to ride on whatever Asmon or any other streamer has to say about a given topic and form your own opinions.
my complaint would be balancing. Many publishers constantly try to balance their game for high end pvp setups in teams. issues are
1) they fail anyway
2) a perfectly balanced game doesnt allow any deviation in tactic and its all about execution
3) its balancing that disadvantages 99,9% of players for the benefit of 0.1%
The biggest problem is that no game designed for esports can compensate for is that what makes a game a good esport and what makes a game fun are often at odds with each other. A big reason why i stopped playing over watch was because a lot of the characters that I liked to play as (like hanzo and Hammond) weren’t considered good in the overall meta and I got berated for using them
eSports and streaming are major double edged swords in recent gaming. They create hype, content, and communities for games. But they also have pushed multiplayer games into sweat fest regardless if it's ranked or casual.
When I hear people crying that something is OP in a PvE game (diablo2) yeah you're trying too hard.
A thing Valve does invest in with their big esports game, CSGO and Dota2, is they have excellent spectator modes. You can start up Dota 2, pick any live match and watch it in "observer mode". There is also a lot of post-match support where data is fed into sites like dotabuff and you can pull up a Match ID and look at the stats and performance of all players. You can download the match and get a (literal) "replay" where you can step through each move and click sent/received.
I joke that I'm still active in Dota 2 but "I watch way more than I play". Having robust spectator modes has helped keep me in Dota 2 even if I can't play the way I did a decade ago.
Too bad they stopped investing in an AntiCheat for CS2 I want so badly to play it but the hacking problem is a plague
First reaction before watching the video is that i 100% agree with this. Company based eSports are an issue. Community based eSports, like back what it used to be, was better. eSports and its variations affect a lot of the mainstream gaming industry, from MMOs, FPS to RTS. Community based eSports but company supported can work so long as the company doesnt have any real pull in how things happen.
"Your experience is made worse by others" and the push for esports is what killed HoTS imo. The game felt good, the characters were well designed and hit character fantasy out of the Park but because all xp was shared and there was such limited individual skill expression compared to DOTA or LoL, bad players always just felt like anchors and made the game miserable.
I know other MoBAs suffer this to an extent but at least in those if you're good you have the potential to carry whereas in HoTS you're literally held back by your team.
I don't think the problem is esports themselves. It's the air of competition where everyone feels like need to get the best of everything and play the most meta way possible. As result people play the game not because they're having fun, but because they feel like they "need" to get the furthest. Gaming for fun has been phased out and replaced by gaming for potential income/competition
Aoe2 has one of the best e sports communities. It’s grown from prize pools of 2k to 200k in 7 years. The players and casters are all so friendly and accessible. Would recommend anyone to check it out.
The "lose low end players" situation happened to me with Overwatch, they kept nerfing the hero I wanted to play, over and over and over to balance "high end play", until I got fed up and quit playing the game entirely.
Average junkrat enjoyer feel your pain. I quit bc I quit all blizz games but I was getting sick of the nerfs to anyone I enjoyed playing. Valorant did the same thing killed viper for me.
Turning gaming in to a career really has ruined all multiplayer competitive games. Streaming just to stream is fine, but streaming to win tournaments has saturated the gaming community with super sweaty people who’s lives truly depend on it, when others just want to have fun :(
i think really the fundamental problem with esports is that the high end players dont want or enjoy the same things as the casual players and the viewers
the main example im thinking of us starcraft, sc2 probably is the single best competitive experience in terms of high end balancing, theres basically never a non viable race at the highest echelon of gameplay, and the amount of skill expression in sc2 is unrivaled in any game
but for the viewers and casual players its arguably one of the most confusing and intense things u could try to watch and understand, and even if you think you understand it you likely dont really because those players are playing 5 games of 7d chess at the same time
thank you, it does have the imo slight problem of really understanding why someone wins/loses, even some casters arnt very good at it, but the skill ceiling/speed allows amazing things to be possible and sure i could nvr hope to play like any pro sc2 players BUT THATS WHY IM WATCHING! its actually something that impresses me and when every second matters i watch every second :)
Its Amazing that so many Developers cant grasp the simple fact that to make any game really competetive it has to have an pick up and play appeal with a semi high complexity.
As you stated Titles like Rocket League, Counter Strike, Street Fighter etc. just gained such popularity because everybody could just pick up a controller and play with a friend. you push a few buttons and you do something.
the concept of COMBOS in fighting games was basically a "glitch" before the developers integrated that abuse in its own system. Pure trial and error has to be possible and has to be simplistic fun
Esports can be huge if they support the right games. Csgo, Dota, halo, smash, "any fighting game"
Even Starcraft 2 has balance changes. Last year Ghosts were Op, but now nerfed. Same thing with Void Rays a while ago. There are imbalances that changes. But I agree that usually they go for perfect balance
I remember time when League of Legends eSport hook me up. You play up to 3 wins. SKT been faceroll every tournament for like 5 years and felt like invincible team. Here comes i first watch SKT vs Samsung Finale. first 2 games, SKT roll over Samsung. Victory is within arms reach. 3rd game, SKT still on the roll. But, Samsung outplay SKT few times, turn over the table. won 3rd game, facerolled 4th game. 5th and final game, final game, was longest, everybody played safe, every minute counts. With some insane plays, SKT still came on top. That was some insane experience. WAY better then i ever felt watching regular sports. I was for an underdog Samsung. Next year, they came again, and wiped the floor with SKT.
I don't watch it anymore, don't have time for that. But i believe that it helps Gaming. Just by normalising gaming in general. Why i liked it i think, was That it's not just running around with a ball. There was strategies, teamwork, Action, Some insane outplays. Basically, more action then soccer, where you watch somebody chase balls for 90 hours or basketball where somebody throw a ball and it misses or not
Love the Street Fighter 6 music in the background!
On release rivers and every other arcane scaled weapon had no scaling, wasn't until the second patch that they were viable and it overtuned them.
The problem imo is that so many new games now, the devs (or suits who knows) wants them to be an e-sport. They try (and usually fail) to balance very complicated concepts and games that are designed for mass appeal to fit into this hyper-competitive style and it doesn't work. It will never work. E-sports shouldn't be something that developers strive to create a game for, or if they do it should be a very niche market. E-sports is something that arose out of games that lend themselves well to competition, that are inherently balanced, and it should be that esports follows from a good game, not games chasing e-sports profits.
The point of eSports is not to have an eSports to watch
The point is to make player feel competitive and increase the value or some kind of honor or pride for being good at competitive
I know that eSports team need sponsor to manage a team but at the beginning of it didn't need to have a sponsor
There maybe some individuals some team that want to become pro in the competition
then later on the eSports get more stable more people to watch the game more prizes pools
This is what happened to LOL at least
I don't know about ruined gaming in general. But E-sports have definitely ruined the whole PS4 era of fighting games for sure. This is the first time that fighting games weren't being made, or balanced, for people to just play them... they were being made, and balanced, for spectators at E-sports events. Fighting games launching with nothing but vs modes, since that's all that's needed for E-sports. Fighting games being filled to the brim with comeback mechanics, since E-sports spectators love seeing comebacks. It goes on, and on. But yeah, I've been saying for a couple of years now; E-sports has ruined fighting games. It's become all about "what do spectators want to see", rather than "what do people want to play".
Street Fighter 6 seems like a bit of a reboot for the whole genre though. I played the closed beta, and the game is actually packed with content, and there is no comeback mechanic. So, I'm hoping after SFF6 launches in June, that it sets the trend for fighting games in the current generation. Because the PS4 E-sports era of fighting games has been pretty bad, Imo.
yeah fighting games had such a good comeback on the PS3. Then e-sports happened and just completely wrecked the ps4 gen fighting game scene.
well doa 5 last round is a game that was never esport and its pretty amazing
what games have a broken comeback mechanic on the ps4 era the only thing i can think of is mvc3 xfactor and that was like 2012 maybe tekkens rage but ehhhhh idk
@@rikibdgd4764 SF5 V trigger is a comeback mechanic, so is GBVS super sky bound arts. Dragon Ball Fighterz has 2 comeback mechanics lol. That's just 3 games off the top of my head. But there's also whole characters that have been designed as pretty much walking comeback mechanics... it's gone that far. Lowain has a super in GBVS that make him invulnerable for around 6-8 seconds, from frame 1 (meaning you can't prevent it if he has 1 frame to breath), and he can deal massive damage to you during that time including unblockable setups (it's his SSBA). Potemkin in Guilty Gear Strive has the highest health and highest damage in the game, combined with some of the fastest meter gain on offense and defense... put all that together and you got a character that's designed to get pounded until he's got 50% meter in every round and then the comeback that everybody was waiting for happens. there's other stuff too. but that's just off the top of my head, man. I think the comeback mechanic thing started with SF4. at least that's the earliest game I can remember that had it.
compare that to SF3. if you're getting your ass kicked in that game, there's no comeback mechanic to save you. and I for one am so glad SF6 is going more in that direction. comeback mechanics are one of the weakest things to exist in fighting games. comebacks are only special when it's driven by player skill. it's just annoying when the comeback is basically the game's near guaranteed reward to the player that's losing.
@@lonnelwright318 i know comeback mechanics exist obviously but the point was overpowered comeback mechanics
potemkin im not an expert on so i cant give my opinion that much but that sounds just like hes taking advantage of system mechanics which other characters can do
dragon ball fighterz tho i can definitively say there isnt a broken comeback mechanic cause by good players spark is almost always used with 3 characters remaining to keep ur whole team alive and limit break is there to give a bit of extra dmg from the devs specifically because people just use spark at the start and even when u put the 2 together the damage doesnt linearly stack or anything
33:23 this didn’t age well😭😂
God fucking damn
I think and this doesn’t apply to every game but youtube actually runs games, more specifically youtubers posting metas. Now people look up what is bis and you are basically going up against the same thing every corner you turn. It makes the gameplay stale and less organic. Like if we use cod as an example back then more people would use different loadout and now more people use the same loadout.
People have always gravitated to a meta even before meta videos became big because people naturally don't want to be gimped
Some games really can stand the test of time. Doom 1&2 still have a healthy fanbase and those are 30 years old.
I am a fan of the "OG" style of e-sports. From back when they weren't called that. For example, fighting game tournaments. Oldschool Call of Duty or Halo tournaments. The type of competition where you see the players trash talking each other and it feels less like a spectacle and more like a nerdy gathering of really good players. Where the competitive scene adapts to the game and not the opposite.
I think Starcraft in Korea started this tendency of televised (or streamed) high prize pool high production e-sportand honestly, that just no longer feels like gaming to me. That's why I still follow the FGC, although over the years it has gained a bit more of an e-sports vibe (especially the bigger games like Street Fighter and Tekken), the core of it is still very much the "arcade fighting game tournament" spirit.
League is 100% going to be around in 10 years.
You never know.
The way they are going with banning LGBT champs in certain regions doesn't bode well for its longevity.
when you have game companies making changes that affects the entire player base just to bolster the esportability for sub 1% of the player base, yes esports have 100% ruined a lot of gaming.. but i feel its more so the "scoreboard" aspect to gaming, like global leaderboards leads to less fun and more try hard, and try hards are usually the most vocal and since they are both vocal and actively play the game the most, one would assume " they know best " ( usually gaming companies ) which usually leads to game changing updates for the rest of the more "casual" player base leading to a feeling have the game ( how you liked it ) ruined by esports, cause the wants/needs of a "casual" player compared to esport try hard elitists are too drastically different
rip heroes of the storm. i don't care what you all have to say about that game or blizzard. i liked it a lot. game had a lot of potential and as always it was milked dry by farmer jackob Economi esports. rest in peace.
im sorry but it was really bad, thats why it died
For real
@@user-vv1io2hn3s nah game was good
game was only good with friends, the solo queue on that game was dog shit
@@davidomar742 nah, game is still good
the bit mentioned @12:00 "it's not esports its meta gaming" Yes but meta gaming affects esports more. Because in esports if you dont try to beat the meta you will lose. In elden ring I did not use moonveil, I don't know if I ever found those items. for most of the game I used a cold-uchigatana. But to get into esports with a low tier or currently countered character (by the current meta) then the level of skill required goes way beyond, still not unachievable but it becomes such a wall
Absolutely true. Companies obsess over what's best only for the top .01% of their players and make decisions that benefit that only tiny majority. The rest of the community feels alienated and the game's player base shrivels.
I don't think this is true in the way you think about it. Balance feedback from experienced players can still be positive. It's the lack of options that kills player base.
Rocket League is one example in which the balance are in fully shaped by its esports, but still provides enough casual experience for the low-end players to enjoy. Fighting games are also like this but now even Street Fighter 6 adds more "just for fun" game modes.
Companies don't obsess about what the pro players are thinking, they are obsessed with the "profitability" of esports without understanding how it needs to be formed first.
Esports ruined competitive for honor, the first major tourneys Ubisoft hosted were devolved and instead of utilizing game knowledge and reaction time to outplay your opponent it just came down to which character had the best cheese. The first finals was two Shugoki (basically sumo wrestler with a club) charging at each other, not even locking on to their opponent
The entire issue is that Esports bleed toxic waste into the normal casual gaming. Biggest gear grinder is people calling others trash talking skill in public matches.
It's like people that want to make a competition out of everything, in order to gained self-perceived worth in exchange for the general enjoyment of those around them
Trying to balance something that is competitive is like trying to mix oil and water. Being balanced Implies equal chances to win, when competition means someone has to be better regardless of balance. No matter how hard you balance something, there will always be that one idiot that considers the very concept of skill to be unbalanced.
That's not Esports fault. People want to have fun and not winning isn't fun. So if you suck, you ruin most peoples fun. Obviously they gonna flame you for it.
Facts!
@@migueltucabron but most of them suck? They tend to talk the most shit and inflate their ego, but in principle they're really not good at the game either.
If you actually quit a game over trash talk, you're just a sensitive crybaby and the problem lies with you, not the game. Consider it a learning experience for the real world, because you need it.
@@RobotMasterSplash That is just not relative at all. You can't just trash talk someone in person for free lol.
You'd get your ass kicked. You can't trash talk co-workers, you'll get fired.
In gaming there is no consequences, in real life there is. Its not a real world, it has no significance to what happens in real life. People don't act like that in person in majority numbers.
They act like that because they think they're safe. People should have the choice to leave a game they don't wanna deal with toxicity. Do you pay their bills?
Esports didn't ruin gaming but games considering esports in their game design did.
Build a game that is good for everyone and esports can still form around it.
I'd go a step further and say more access and use of the internet, specifically social media platforms encourage exchanging of information at a greater rate in return on monetization that led to increased meta gaming thus leading to degenerate esports mentality. People seek to exploit games now in order to gain notoriety on the internet in order to sell that information using advertising platforms. Gaming is a business in all aspects now, and if everything is worth money, then people will destroy a game from top to bottom trying to find anything about it to expose it to the internet for money. Money encourages players to hyper accelerate the learning curves of games which leads the falling out of a casual audience in a scorched earth manner. Figuring out a game and theories/ideas/wonder spawned from it are the best moments of games. Meta gaming is a shift that comes too fast now and players lose a large interest if they are immediately pressured to no longer try to figure anything out but just do as they are told by the data already collected.
lol this is becoming a huge issue for people in Wrath classic because everyone's BiS items in phase 2 are either yogg algalon or hard mode bosses and everyone is shitting bricks.
Nobody knows how to stat compare anymore The meta gaming min/maxing is SUPER annoying.
This video could have even used other old game examples from other genres such as Starcraft Brood War or Age of Empires 2. Brood War had a big Korean tournament scene and with no patches the metagame had shifted multiple times with no patches. Age of Empires survived nearly two decades without dev support and a similar shift in metagame during that time.
Sometimes balance need not be achieved by giving more playable options. It can be done by changing the rules of play by changing the arena of play. Of course one could argue, as in the video, that many of our beloved games didn't bother making all playable options viably balanced at a higher level.
One thing i like about AoE2, especially now that it once again has dev support, is a part of their balancing isn't about making each civ viable all the time, but giving them niches where they can be viable. So on some maps a weak civ might be the overly powerful option and other civs, who are often otherwise considered op, might be seen as ok at best. And thus there doesn't need to be a constant focus on tweaking the civs when all that is needed is tweaking the field of play.
> Brood War had a big Korean tournament scene and with no patches the metagame had shifted multiple times with no patches
still has*
There's multiple things that have ruined gaming, eSports has made the scene really toxic but is just 1 cog of the machine that is eating up the gaming community
Same can be said about streamers at times tbh. Noticed that in EFT. Obviously the devs catered mainly to the streamers, as they are the ones bringing in new players etc. But since those streamers play crazy amounts of hours they hit the "end" (missions, levels, gear etc) very quickly. Then they start getting bored an pleading the devs for wipes. Which completely ruined it for me wanting to play the game casually here and there.
I mean tarkov has some huge issues but if you think 9month wipes isnt long enough to get to level 40-50 and have a decent stash id say your playing the game wrong
@@happyjeffy Yeah, once a week.
I remember playing FPS games just to have fun. Not chasing some sweaty try-hard "pro-gamer" dream.
I remember wanting to go competitive in FPS games because of the skill ceiling, not the money. I didn't in the end, but I wanted to.
what you have to remember is that most teams get their entry fee into a league by sponsors such as advertisers, and yes its true that those companies are at a loss if their team they backed doesn't win, it's still all about the ad space. Look at Team Liquid in lol, they had a huge sponsor with Alienware, peripherals, and other gaming related products that viewers will ultimately by. It's nothing new, every sport has a sponsor to participant. With the growth of gaming in the last decade, esports will follow along.
TBH I often look for the esport of a new game to come out before I try most games, I would rather play something that seems tried and tested and fits into my style of games.
Competitive gaming, imo, has caused gaming to become more and more of a job, or profession, where instead of monetary compensation, we get social inclusion instead.
It’s shocking how many people I know that practice on aim-trainers or other programs regularly, to play a competitive game, recreationally.
People play to win instead of having fun, it's really annoying
As a streamer/esports person, this is accurate. You go in thinking play for fun, then you get demolished by a pro or "try-hard," which causes you to train and take on their mentality so you won't have to be beaten so badly again, thus creating a perpetual loop because you now have to play on a higher level and end up going against casuals, which harms the community and makes more people have less fun and make ot a job.
'Fornite being the biggest prizepool in E-sports history.'
DoTA2: *Surprised Pickachu face
Yea, an esports video, talking about balance, prize pool and community support does not feature the biggest example of a community sponsored tournament. A huge oversight.
What they should have done with overwatch is lock hero choice, but give them a choice of alternate powers or attacks. Don't give Rine a sniper but rather then the air slash he throws a moly. to deny space. Rather then his shield he gets a smaller one with way more hp and regen. Making it less protective for allies and easier to flank the shield.
Make it so zen can have an ult version of his heal and amp to just hover in an aoe effecting people but for less effect or range. Do it how tf2 did it. Rather then making it a swap meta, make it be an item meda which is much easier to balance. Hell even do slightly different kinds of alts that doesn't disrupt what you expect from the hero like having a massive lock on arrow with Hanzo that follows targets for a set time.
What ruined it for me was growing up :(. I just can’t sit down and play anything without feeling guilty about my time
well that goes away thrust me i have gamed for soon 30 years -the 10 first are the hardest
That actually sounds like something you should talk to a therapist about, feeling guilt whenever you try to relax or enjoy yourself is really unhealthy and not a normal "growing up" thing.
Watches UA-cam instead lol
Yeah i m currently feeling like that :(
@@daroaminggnome Nah. That is definitely something the OP should work on with a pro. If they have time to play a game they should not feel guilty for playing a game. Sounds like me when I get depressed.
Yup. You need a good, fun game before you can have a competitive community. It then follows that you need a comp community before you can have organized play, which can then lead to an esport. You can’t manufacture an esport, it doesn’t work - you gotta grow one.
At this point I'm using Asmon's youtube channel as my actual recommended feed and go to the original videos itself and not for Asmon's reactions.
Beating the yt algorithm
Almost none the reasons he cited were really the reason why eSports were killing the gaming. The real reason is simply the focus on competitive gaming in detriment to casual gaming, most player of most games are casuals, they don't care about being competitive, ranks, elos. They only want to have fun, and most games today are focusing too much into being competitive multiplayer games
I didn't know his dad was one of the first counter strike pro players. Wow
I don't know if her reads yt comments but riot let Valorant have free franchise slots and instead stipend the teams 600k and then gave them a chance to earn another 400k across the season. I think this shows the passion that they have for this game to thrive comes before the need to make income (although the skins are expensive af). I can see valorant having another massive blow up soon if everything goes well. I hope you enjoy your time playing it Asmon, thank you for your time.
@@3xceIIent literally lcs lmaoo.
@Excellent It's their event so yeah that would be their right. You don't get to demand entry to a tournament, if the venue kicks you out then you leave. Every video game tournament in history works this way, as they should. This isn't some state operated affair that has to be open to all, stop being ridiculous.
@@RobotMasterSplash I dunno about that but anybody can join in The International thats why I like Dota better than League.
If you look at chess, it is a really good tournament game. Every failure leaves you with a permanent penalty on pieces and the comback resulting in that will be even more spectacular. Overwatch for example turns that paradigm, people are the pieces. This is not inherently bad - if you look at counterstrike it works out, the reason is CS is very volatile quick and reaction based and actually based around player direct skill. A single player can turn around a 1v5 because the actions are volatile with high chance of fatality. The reason it works is because the playing field is balanced around volatility. The same goes for chess, the different roles of the pieces do not change much about that. Overwatch does something, that is imo really bad, it combines the two scenarios emphasizing the worst outcome by introducing different roles, removing volatility introducing respawn timer and create a balance between the roles and not between team oportunity, also dragging out matches in that regard. You can not win the round by yourself especially if you have chosen a tank or healer for example. I think this is one of the reasons why the idea which games that can be rated as actual e-sports is so warped.
I can understand esports, but I genuinely hate them because it treats casual fans like chopped liver, and the characters are seen more as tools rather than as characters.
Funny I actually was debating this the other day. Esports I think came 15yrs too soon. We are still in the in between of people who didn’t and don’t use PCs and those who do. You take that along side gaming having streamers near boost or kill games, and gaming companies becoming more corporate… it’s just a bad mix to try and make it a big money making machine in the middle of all this. I don’t think it’s bad for gaming - I think it came at a bad time.
Rocket League was insanely fun from the start. After people started loving the game, then the eSports scene started developing.
I feel that the city thing with the ow league was the only reason I was remotely interested. Only problem was that I am from Toronto and that team sucks. I'm sure the reason why e-sports can't really take off is because there's very hard to get good betting payouts
Yeah Covid really fucked up the year they were meant to transition into what it was meant to be with arena games in home cities.
You should bring on an Overwatch streamer like Samito to talk about the game and the esports scene. I think that would be super interesting.
That manchild has nothing of value to say.
Even Starcraft BW that came out 20 years ago does not have perfect balance, there is different style and some races that are better at different stages of the game. The thing is progamer have adapted all those small dent in the balance to their advantage as well as the balance vary greatly dependings on the map that changes from tournament to tournament and player (usualy)have veto in their map choices
Blockchain + esports + ai + ugc = future of gaming
We're still in the wild west of e-sports, a few have stood out but it's still very much an open playing field to find out what people are willing to watch. Also, games are not continual, meaning there is always a squeal that we have to switch over to, unlike a more traditional sport that is the same year after year with only players changing. Once we get to a true persistent game with a competitive format we'll see a more settled e-sports scene.
AAA gaming industries and the greed for hookers and cocaine is what happened. 😅😅😅
4:00 the original SC also kinda counters that argument. Sure, they had SK sponsors, but blizzard basically didn't support that brood war esport scene at all iirc
eSports peaked with MLG Halo 3 tournaments. Change my mind.
Halo 2 mlg tournament
When it comes to FPS, it would be CSGO majors. Halo 3 not even in the same universe as CSGO as an esport.
@@Ruffian12345 halo 3 was lit. Was a different community, but that shit popped the fuck off. Halo is a really good eSports game because of its equal starts and fighting for weapons/power ups. Good old arena style shooter. Too bad they were not ready for a live service with an unfinished game with infinite. Once they get on their feet, it can be one of the best eSports shooters for a more mainstream audience.
I think it's better for a company to come out and support their games esport scene after the community has shown that it is something they want, trying to make a game that will become and esport is effectively asking for it to fail cause there's no guarantee that the community supports it. Community first, company later.
Hi :)
This is why the FGC will be the king of esports. Because any player can enter an Evo tournament and compete against the best in the world. No franchise fees, or sponsorships or teams required.
good day yall
hi
just tfw i play online multiplayer games like a single player game, its when the game forces me to team up with people that i no longer like to play it unless its a very small part of the game. In general though, i just like to do everything myself in a game, grind everything, collect everything, power myself up until i can melt a boss in under 30s. That's the type of game that i enjoy playing, while i enjoy watching people beat up on each other in other games so im more likely to watch esports.
Like Asmongold has said before, the game developers are like God. It’s not player’s responsibilities to filter/ limit how they play the game. It’s the developers fault if there is a mechanic that can be abused in the game. Why? Because they can actually fix it. It’s not esports fault, it’s simply human nature to optimize something as much as possible. Just look at the world around you. Forget about tactics in a video game, you’re living in a era where can literally run a simulation through your computer along with tons of other technological advancements. So regardless of esports or not, people would’ve naturally found the “meta” way to play game, and some would abuse it for their own benefit and some might not. But that’s just bound to happen. It’s the game developers who are to blame because it’s their world and they’re literally god.
If you think that not having esports would fix the problem you’re wrong. Because there’s also content creators out their that don’t compete in competitions that spread information, recommendations, tips, tricks, tutorial, etc. every single day. If you really want to point a finger at something that “made players switch to meta gaming” then blame the entire internet. Because even then if there was no content creators, then there would be forums. And so on an so forth. Eventually it could even boil down to the spread of information by word of mouth.
League of legends was at it's most fun when it was not played competitively on a commercial stage. When E$port$$$ got involved it all went downhill. Now it's catering to the E$port$ scene and they can't seem to attract new players while losing veteran players at the same time. The game simply isn't fun anymore, they built it so it resembles a job...
Unfortunately a negative side effect of every game nowadays being competitive is that it has completely eliminated casual play. I can't just sit down and play an online game for fun anymore without getting stomped on by sweaty ass players that are trying to mimic their favorite streamers. I play games for enjoyment, I don't care about being the best at a game. Unfortunately though that means casual players like me ultimately get pushed out of online gaming entirely because we cannot enjoy the games we want to play anymore. For example, I used to love Halo, it used to be my favorite game series of all time before all this competitive eSports shit took over, and I used to be pretty good at it. Nowadays since it has become more competitive since Microsoft and 343 has injected eSports into the series, I can't even sit down and enjoy a casual laid back match without constantly getting wiped by sweaty ass players. Unfortunately as a result of this, I have now come to hate Halo because I'm just not enjoying it anymore and all I feel is rage when I play it.
I personally feel competition for Pokémon ruined the fun. It has to be about catching them all, not min maxing stats and repetitive breeding for traits. I went to college and people bragged about winning the campus tournament.
the thing is...its been like 5-7 years since all of you tried to force this "e-sport" name.
And still...to this day NOBODY is taking it as a serious sport. Not even the ones competing takes it seriously.
Next time, do your own thing and stop calling it any form of sport.
I feel like apex legends has drastic meta gaming. The top tier players who are actively in the esport scene select certain legends because of community feedback around how good they are. Within the apex universe. The characters don’t compare each other. Yet the community does which drives a wedge in how accessible it is because if you aren’t playing an easy to use “overpowered” legend then you’re destined to not reach the higher levels of play
Sport, in general, is popular, in part, because of it's simplicity: any person not familiar with a sport may not understand all the rules and technicalities, but they can follow the general principle, e.g., ball goes in goal is good.
22:45 actually reginald and hotshotgg did that first back in the own3d tv days
IIRC TSM was the first "streamers" house, unlike older organizations that relied on sponsors, TSM and CLG raised their funds from content creation
Most of the funding for tsm in the early days came from the tsm website being insanely popular. Back in the early days it was THE place to go to look up guides for champions. This was just one of a handful of extremely popular websites reginald owned. The content creation they did was almost entirely for the purpose of keeping the tsm brand in the spotlight. The content they produced is what kept the fans chanting "TSM TSM TSM" in the early days. The websites reginald owned brought in the money.
honestly since the rise of esports, the gaming industry has just been going down more and more in quality when it comes to games based on multiplayer
I personallz think that role-q plazed a big part in killing the popularity of Overwatch1.
A majority of the playerbase only has a limited hero pool that is spread across all three roles. If they are locked in to play one role but the enemy team picks a comp to counter them, chances are that the person who could swap to counter the counter can not do so because that hero is part of a different role pool.
I personaly played during the Triple-Tank-meta and as much as i hated it I can see the validity of that playstyle. I know they brought back standard-q but having both role-q aswell as standard-q just spreads the playerbase to thin and divides it.
FPS e-sport meh, League MEH, you leave my Fighting Game Championships TF alone bro that shit is hottness. That side of E-sports knows how to do it and the game devs involved are good at making their product very balanced so that there is almost always variety at the higher level of skill
With esports and orgs, there's people playing the same game for 16 hours a day for years on salary. Devs start to develop the games around the pro scene and the casual player ends up having less and less enjoyment. All the ingame lineups or strategies, meta pro builds, and stuff. Then everyone demands teammates to follow these things and the diversity, creativity, and fun is stripped away. The most current example to me is LoL removing all the fun modes, event modes, 3v3, ruining aram, and item diversity. It feels like they are trying to force one method of play in correlation to esports.
Smash Melee is interesting because the players put in the work. Puff became a top tier character because HBox figured out how to make it happen, not because she was patched. Currently, there's a resurgence of Yoshi - he's getting good results in tournaments and online play, and it's because somebody put in the work to show that he actually competes, not because it's been patched in.
The point, I think was that the core game play, rather than "the meta," is solid. Melee, Starcraft, Counterstrike, Rocket League, even Valorant to a lesser extent - they all rely on core game play, rather than flash and roster diversity and the extras on top of the game. The excitement comes because the best strategy is to be good at the game, rather than to use the most powerful thing in the game as determined by the most recent patch that forced a change in the meta because it was deemed imbalanced. People learn and adapt, and if the developers allow that (or don't care enough to disallow it) then the meta evolves on its own.
I mean, look at Chess. Blizz or Riot would probably nerf the Queen because it's OP.
Esports only exacrebate the problems that emerge in all games from instrumental play. This is to say that "metas" and a "correct" way to play a competitive game will always arise from the community itself, especially once the game's novelty wears out a bit. However, by making a game an Esport, the producers and hosts are actively participating in the dissemination of such "metas".
I think that corporate expected "e-sports" to become a local phenomenon, where people would hold small tournaments. But this was a completely unrealistic expecation. The core-experience in a tournament is simply to play the game against some people. This experience is already available in simple multiplayer. If you are not in the top 0.001 percent of the best players in the world, then nobody cares about watching your tournament.
A note on the BMW sponsorship and the age thing. Even if the viewers are mostly too young to buy a BMW now, they are impressionable. At a minimum, it's brand exposure, BMW might be remembered by some of the young viewers as being "cool" for sponsoring their favorite game, and so BMW might see dividends on that sponsorship years down the road.
Another reason you don't see Mario Cart esport is the item system. The item system pretty much solely benefiting lower placed drivers. Ie the last second bullet bill finishes while first is stuck with coins.