THE PROBLEM WITH THE DARK KNIGHT MOVIES
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- Опубліковано 14 гру 2022
- The problems with some of the performances or more importantly depictions of the characters in everyone's favorite Batman trilogy.
The Dark Knight movies are some of the most well
#thedarkknight #batman #heathledger
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I actually unironically like the Bane voice. Sure, it's goofy, but it's also iconic and memorable. We've all attempted a Bane voice at one point or another.
Yup, and when i first heard Tom Hardys real voice i realized the genius behind that portrayal! He's more then just a roided out on venom hlk like in the comics.. Linking him to the league of shadows was also a nice touch to connect him to batman more.. They could've done more with his character, but for the movie it seems fine for him,, He wasn't really a iconic villain like the others
That's how fighters/wrestlers/boxers talk actually. So I'm totally confused on how is that a "problem".
Recently, I smoked a blunt with friends and we had to go out. I said “let’s get mobile” in Bane voice. Lol
Really really enjoyed that Bane
I hated their version of bane, it was too removed from source material
I feel like one of the most overlooked aspects of the Batman voice was when Falcone said “you’re the prince of Gotham, you’d have to go a thousand miles to meet someone who didn’t know your name.” Narratively this set Batman up for the change of voice. He was trying to keep his identity a secret even though everyone in Gotham knew his voice.
Was that in the first movie?
@@John-Doe-Yo yeah when he goes to visit falcone before throwing the gun away
Yeah!! but it didn't have to sound like what they did, I felt
We know that, though. The problem isn't the lore behind the voice change, the problem is the actual voice.
I agree. The voice was fine for me.
The one moment in the film that felt truly like the joker to me was him killing the fake batman just due to joker getting upset that someone is pretending to be the man he is obsessed with is so on point with the character
He is the joker he’s just not your joker characters can be different in adaptations
@@Galvatronover Heath Ledger Joker was mostly deadpan humorous. I don’t get why people do not see that. The hospital bomb fail was deadpan. His talk with the mob was deadpan. The part in bank heist where he said “I kill the bus driver” was deadpan humorous. Him clapping at Gordon being promoted to commissioner. He literally is mocking people by having a serious face and is intentionally being ironic to his “Why so serious” slogan. People don’t get his joke.
@@petermj1098 in the comics joker decides what’s funny or not he doesn’t let people in on a joke you are the joke the reason he is obsessed with Batman is because he can understand joker and his sense of humor without having to be told joker wants to break batmans psyche he wants batman to not only understand his humor but to embrace it laugh with him I love heath Ledgers performance but he strays so far away from the joker from the comics
@@r0cket104 the joker is obsessed with Batman in the dark knight as well. He blatantly says that he is unstoppable force and Batman is a immovable object and he says that he completes him and doesn’t want to kill him. Literally in the interrogation scene he reveals to Batman that society is a bad joke and he wants to show him that to him.
@@petermj1098 I’m just stating that the dark knights joker is it’s own character it uses traits of joker from the comics but he’s a different character entirely I agree with your statement
The only joker, live action or animated that really captured the essence of the character is the I'm the joker baby guy. The depth he brought to the character really made him shine. It was like he literally became the joker.
I mean he IS the joker babey!
@jacquelinewithac8668 everything you could ever need to know about the character encapsulated perfectly in that one line. Going full method really paid off.
Are you not going to say where he's from? Because I'm drawing a blank, is it from one of the Arkham games?
Edit: Did you mean the meme?
@@avangelinechatters He did mean the meme
The thing with joker is that he needs others to see how insane and murderous he is. He doesnt want to be forgotten or downplayed or what ever. So that is why i believe that its better for the joker to praise himself instead of other people. It shows how insane and insecure he really is.
I know he's a showman, but he's a different kind of showman than Riddler.
He isn't insecure and wanting people to know his name, with almost every version not having a name beyond Joker. Whatever he was as a man no longer exists, instead he's a performer, the ultimate performer.
That's the extent of his vanity. He doesn't care if people know that he's the one responsible for his terrible deeds, but he wants as many people as possible to watch those deeds. Meaning that he's perfectly fine with no one knowing that he was the guy who murdered Harvey Dent, but he needs people to know that Harvey Dent is dead and what really happened to him.
He's different from Riddler in that everyone knows that Riddler is Edward Nigma because he can't take a step while walking down the street without saying "Hey! I'm Riddler, and Edward Nigma! Check out these cool evil plans," while no one knows Joker's real identity, if that makes sense.
@@ashblossomandjoyoussprung.9917You, you get it
i think the “bruce is the mask” debate is really interesting because technically you’re right, billionaire playboy bruce wayne is a facade, but that doesn’t mean bruce wayne the real person is fake as well
Bruce wayne vive en el ático de batman
Lego batman
Exactly the point!
My biggest problems with this trilogy is that there are no characters I care about other than Bruce. Also the dialogue consists of everyone talking like they’re Basil Exposition
What how the fuck do you not care about Alfred Jim Gordon Selena Kyle The origin Rachel Harvey Dent
@@Slice2099 its easy when these characters spend half of their screen time delivering exposition or not being particularly important.
My biggest problem is that batman is the world's greatest detective. He only showed his detective skills once.
EVERYONE talking like Basil Exposition?! wow, some one is overreacting a little.
That’s how I felt about the Batman!
"Do I look like a cop?" was Christian Bale's best line in the trilogy.
I'm The Batman he is actually doing Firemen and Policemen work.🤣
Like why even call this Batman.
Especially when he is helping the people at the end.
It's like ok just put a firemen jacket on him instead.
I'm a fan of "I'M NOT WEARING HOCKEY PADS"
@@cactusmalone I'm not smart,. But You're the sheep praising a crappy film.
Talk about NOT being smart🤦
@@cactusmalone I didn't even know Harvey Dent was in this shitty movie.
Are you referring to The Penguin perhaps?
@@jorge5275 shitty??
One of the more frustrating parts of Joker’s speeches and sermons is that it gave way to this misguided notion that the Joker was some sort of counter culture, anti-establishment Icon. People love using Ledger’s Joker particularly as the face of their social platitudes seemingly forgetting that Joker has no real ideology other than people are evil at their core. It sort of cheapened his image for a while.
Ledger adds more ideology than the joker in the comics. In the comics he isn't an agent of chaos. He is chaos. There is no reason at all. He isn't trying to prove anything. He does what he does because it is. There is no point...
one of the worst decision that this movie made was putting batman into an ideological pissing context with joker.
@@normdeplume4082 wasn't all the killing joke thing the Joker trying to prove a point?
They should’ve used Anarchy for the movie if that’s what they were going for
@@normdeplume4082but sometimes, there being 'no point' - can exemplify a meaning that alludes to something that at first glance doesn't seem as the Joker is doing it for apparently the 'sake of it' - all the Jokers (maybe except from his 1st iteration of being able to break the 4th wall) are exactly the same in essence of their meaning as a allegorical, figurehead of a character in juxtaposition to how a Human can ultimately be shaped down by the circumstances, which goes against the whole notion that is the dilemma of 'good & ev_I' - that juxtapositions itself with an 'idea' - that sets upon the most accepted set of perceived standards, that gets objectified in truth of what it's supposed be as, and what it should be, such as what a 'Human' is supposed to be as in all it's meaning of existence.
"The joker doesn't need to be specifically acknowledged or credited" You are just wrong. There are so many times where the joker got angry or insecure that people don't KNOW and FEAR him. It's the entire subplot of Arkham Knight
Not always a case actually. In some media he cares in other he just wants to prove a point to the Batman and hell with everything else. Do you really think that Joker from Killing Jokes cares about acknowledgment from the public? Hell no.
@@slammydunk9787 his whole point in that is to prove to Batman and the world that anybody could end up like him and it only takes one bad day. That even the most heroic and stoic figures that fight for the side of Justice could be broken and weren’t infallible. If Jim Gordon could break nobody was safe
Heck that is why he attacked Harley during TAS
Heath Ledger's Joker is not the definitive version of the character.
@@jerbs5346 i disagree
Two points you missed
1. At the end of the Dark Knight, all of Harvey Dent's murders are pinned on Batman. So the city now hates him. He also sustained a knee injury, presumably from the fall after rescuing Gordon's son. Rachel was not the only reason he retired.
2. After the death of Rachel, Harvey lost his faith in the system. A lot of the cops were dirty and even played a hand in Rachel's death and his kidnapping. He frequently warned Gordon but he did nothing. But why not kill the Joker? Harvey still has a sense of justice, just very warped. He even explains it at the end of the movie. The coin flip is pure chance and fairness. 50/50. "Unbiased. Fair." He also draws a parallel between the police having to choose to save Rachel or Harvey, giving each of them a 50/50 chance.
Bingo
agreed
The Riddler leaves behind clues because of a need to show off.
The Joker left behind clues in order to manipulate.
The final plan of the evacuation of the city doesn't work without the Joker having a history of calling his shots, and carrying through even after he does.
Gets it. Some people have never read a Joker comic or Batman #1 which this iteration was based on
I’m a little bit surprised that Vee missed that TDK Joker literally only explained to manipulate and just how much in the movie isn’t outright explained. All three movies require constant attention in order to catch everything. One of the few flaws in TDKR is when a character gets something explained to him that he should have figured out on his own.
I’m curious why Catwoman’s portrayal in TDKR wasn’t included in this video set. She’s such a complex and important character to the Bat Family that you’d think you would give her some attention.
Nah, she was pretty damn Useless.
The new one is even worse
Women get enough attention all on their own
What makes her complex and important?
Terrible. Take a lap.
@@jorge5275 the new one is better.
During a radio interview, J.R.R. Tolkien once answered the question of why the Fellowship didn't just use the eagles to fly to Mordor: "Shut up." I think Nolan has the exact same response for anyone who asks why Batman and Gordon didn't just pin everything on the Joker.
I think the point of having the Joker give speeches like other characters is to show that he's not really just a manic looking to cause chaos but is methodical. The charters that give speeches are seen as really wise characters so to draw that parallel is to me a great little move. Also anarchists absolutely explain their point and reasoning for their stance in often a self fealating way. The difference with Joker is that it's a game to him. He KNOWS he's a schemer, he's just showing that he's smarter than the others out there. He wants to have fun where as the others want money, power, or some other relatively material gain. At the end of the day Joker just wants to fuck with people.
Also my head cannon is that Joker was a soldier that got wounded in combat and then fucked over by the system. Just makes a lot of sense with some of the things he knows how to do not to mention the underlying social commentary that the Nolan movies have (i.e. the post 9/11 U.S..)
Which explains his knowledge of guns, explosions, how he camouflaged himself among that soldiers pretty well, his almost supernatural ability to improvise perfectly according to the surprises that happened while his plan was flowing...
And a specific line on his speech to Harvey on the hospital: "no one cares when a van full of soldiers explodes miles away".
Aaand another one during the interrogation scene: "never start with the head, the witness can't get fuzzy!"
@@RodrickMarsMoon exaclty.
Problem of him giving speeches is not some great meta concept of something like that, no its just how characters communicate in this movie.
@@slammydunk9787 the key thing though is what characters do that. Its for the most part the main ones and mostly those we're supposed to see as wise, smart, or cunning. Putting him on that same level shows that he's not just some crazy dude (i.e. one of the many ways the fucked up with the Letto Joker) but is actually an equal and more of a threat.
@@brandon_crow1291 But every single character from main cast has some speech at some point (apart of Rachel…. But she is more of a plot device rather than actual character + she already said her speech in the Beginning so its counts). Obviously main villain of the movie must be one of those people. Once again, Joker doing this not because its some great artistic decision, he doing this because its only way of communication major characters have between each other or/and audience.
My personal favourite thing about taking characters like Batman and Joker from comic book pages to live action is there will never be a perfect director, no perfect performance that pleases everyone and that's why I never cared about having these characters rebooted all the time, same applies with Spider-Man every movie will bring something different and will make certain aspects of the character perfect but it will never be 100%. There's always a different way to play a character like Joker and we've seen that play out, from Nicholson to Heath to Leto and now Joaquin all the same character but no 2 are the same. This trilogy will never be perfect and it doesn't have to be cuz no matter what we want to change or what we just don't like it will never stop anyone from enjoying it and the heart Heath put into the role makes it that much more enjoyable.
Look, Heath Ledger is the terrific Joker, but his character is not the definitive version.
He’s not and though it’s a great performance as time goes on the power in it gets diluted thanks to all the wannabe actor knobs on UA-cam giving tutorials on how to do the voice or showing off how accurate there rendition is and it’s just really lame.
Honestly Nicholsons Joker is pretty pitch perfect and comic book accurate for it’s time of course. When dark knight first came out all anybody did was shit on nicholsons performance.
@@cicolasnage5684 Nah. I shat on Jack from the beginning. I thought he & Carey were cast backwards.
Fuck sake here he is again! The man who says “Joker wouldn’t declare his crimes on TV” when Joker literally declared his crimes on the radio in his first fucking appearance. The man who calls Gotham’s Jerome the best Joker when he’s literally just a compilation tribute of all previous versions with nothing new added. The man who shits on Batfleck for killing with a valid story reason but is more than willing to forgive Keaton for killing with no reason whatsoever. “Least favourite UA-camr”. I’m starting to think he doesn’t mean that as a joke.
Bane had lots of potential tho since they were going for a more smart angle to his character kind of like in Origins
Origins Bane is top notch
@@cotopaximusic The Bane in Harley Quinn the animated series is best.
9:30 Actually this thing of Joker telling Batman and police who will be his victims is from the comics, specially from his first apperances in the golden age as well story such as "The man who laughs" and "the laughting fish". The Joker does this to make the crime more fun and also to prove his point to others: Batman and GCPD can do anything, try anything, he will still kill his victim and go out laughting in the end.
My own slight rebuttals:
-Two-Face does kind of have a two-sided suit in the Dark Knight. He's wearing the suit that was burned on one side the same as he was.
-Rachel Dawes was the worst part of the Dark Knight, not the Dark Knight himself. Out of every character in the movie, she has the least of it. Heck, I am more interested in the backstory of the psycho David Dasmalchin (or however the hell you spell his name) played than I am in Rachel. She's literally just a love object that Bruce and Harvey play tug-o-war with. Kirsten Dunst's Mary Jane is more of a character and I would say Katie Holmes even made her more compelling.
-Yes, I disagree with Bale's Batman hanging up the cape because of her death. But that's also because I don't think the logical story move following Dark Knight is him retiring whatsoever. The badassness Batman ends that movie with, Gordon's whole speech about what a legendary figure he is and how he will watch out for the city no matter what, indicates to me that Batman will go even harder in his crusade than ever.
I think that ending indicates that the Dark Knight Rises' Batman should even be a bit Frank Miller-y at the start of that movie. Hunting down criminals while being hunted down by cops. And him even being unafraid to drop more and more of the cops on his tail if they get in the way of "his" justice (to the floor, not the grave.) I don't think it's eight years of retirement that should've made him lose his edge in his first bout with Bane. It's eight years of exhaustion from age and fighting that makes him lose. Which is closer to the essence of Knightfall where Bane's plan is to fatigue the Dark Knight.
But I digress. Bale's Batman has a fantastic through line in the trilogy despite that one un-Batman-like decision. Especially as Vee appropriately pinpointed Bruce the MAN as most important to these films. Batman is just an extension of Bruce's willpower. And I think we can all agree Batman, whether truly Bruce or not, is a story about willpower. As long as that value is touted in the face of obstacles and tragedy, it's a Batman story. And from the man's point of view, it's a more hopeful and relatable ending for the man to overcome everything in his life holding him back, including his parents' deaths. He overcomes numbness, the emptiness of such crippling loss in a spiritual victory that I think is just so passionately enacted by Bale in Rises. "I'm afraid of dying here...while my city burns." Ultimately, Gotham still meant more to him than anything. And while that overcoming of the parents is also not very true to the comics, comics Batman does always make sure the city is in good hands should he ever fail to have what it takes. Him giving Blake the keys to the cave was a nice tribute to the legacy characters of Batman in the books. Since I don't think the colorful Robins would work in Nolan's world. (However, this cop character from Bludhaven could have probably still just been named Dick Grayson.)
the best batman is the batman himself and not bruce since the best batman is the real mask of Bruce Wayne
Agreed about Batman's voice haha.
First time I heard it, I was like "WTF??" 😅😂
There might be too much dialogue, but at the same time, it’s a good thing for fans to watch with people not familiar with Batman lore. I’ve watched this movie with my girl and my daughter separately and they were both able to grasp the story and the motives easily without me having to pause every time something happens to explain.
For me it was bales batman voice getting worse in each movie lol and I didn't like how they didn't focus solely on scarecrow in begins. Also bane was a bad choice for nolan's universe
Yea bane might be one of the worst choices. Someone like black mask or riddler could be good.
Bane could’ve at least been a side villain, instead of the main one.
Noup, Tom Hardy's Bane was great.
uSaid nolan's universe right?
@@LarrySwishamane yep. Bane didn't fit in nolan's more realistic batman universe
These aren't Batman movies. They are movies where they put Batman. Very little of what represents Batman are in this trilogy of films, other than parts of the 1st of these. They are fun action films, but IMO that dates these movies far more then any of the other Batman movies to this date.
You nailed it! Batman Begins is very good in my opinion. Also because that style of exposition was fresh from Nolan. But the next two movies were spent explaining themselves and why they’re so brilliant and audiences just seemed to agree. Bale’s voice was also terrible in the sequels. In Begins it was passable but it got horrible for the successors.
I agree. Batman Begins is the superior Batman film. I love the way it explores who Bruce is and why he is choosing the fight crime. I also like the way it made Gotham City feel like a real city. In the sequels, Gotham just looks like it could be New York or Chicago.
@@nerychristian ya they really blended it nicely with the Arkham vibe and the gritty neighbourhood. Begins also felt more dark and grey visually to me. I found both TDK and TDKR were too bright and shiny far too often.
And the bulbous cowl headpiece on that new suit made Batman look like a Funko Pop from behind when he was beating up the Joker.
I think the Joker was the only real positive in the franchise after Batman Begins and even he felt underutilized in TDK. I wish they’d let him take over the show more.
well the sequels aren't bad and Bale's voice wasn't really bad in the sequels. Not at all.
@@jaydenc367 True. Batman should sound like someone who smokes 2 packs of cigarettes a day.
@@nerychristian he canonically has voice modulators it was either that or a comically deepened voice
Sometimes youtube ad placement is amazing.
"Anarchy doesnt explain itself it just..."
*whiskey commercial*
i love all these long podcast type videos, i use them to fall asleep/ do chores. make more plz
I couldn't agree more. Something about Christian Bale's portrayal of Batman never quite set right with me. He's obviously a phenomenal actor, but something was off with his batman.
He was great in begins, to me he just got it down pat. But the later films? Not so much.
He is a great bruce wayne though
What I liked is that they stuck with keeping Nolan's joker a mystery. When he was locked in a cell. "No names, fingerprints, the suit is custom made, no other alias"-Gordon
So he's a tailor! Solved the mystery.
Thank you so much. I was looking forward to a video that could make an hour on the elliptical pass by
In the end of the day everything boils down to major flow of almost every Nolan movie. His movies have a interesting story, beautiful visuals, tremendous atmosphere, good ideas (depends on the movie but for the most part). But characters… characters are cardboards in his movies. They are mostly delivering exposition and pretty bluntly explain what happens in this particular section of the story or meaning behind scene…. Oh yeah and they needed for action scenes as well. They just secondary to visual spectacle that Nolan building. Usually its just covered by tremendous performances of actors but you won’t remember those people. You’ll remember scene of the Matthew McConaughey crying but you wont remember name of his character. You will remember spectacle of the Inception but you won’t remember wtf main character were doing in the first place. You will remember Dunkerk ship scenes but never any of the soldier personal stories. The only reason why you remember characters of Dark Knight is because its Batman characters and lore but if you strip them of this context they are just same as every other Nolan characters, cardboards.
P.S. so thats why Joker so great in the movie. He is is pretty much a perfect Nolan character by a virtue of being one in source material. Cause we all know Joker is not an actual character more of the mix of ideas that he translates through his actions.
Side note: it's pretty obvious that his brother was like "wait, you made that spy thing as a plot device"? The show Person of Interest is just about a thing identical to that.And his brother is the one that can write people.
Nolan can't tell a story to save his life
I think Nolan definitively sees his characters more as tools and function than, well, characters. The pinnacle of that probably being Tennet where the main character is literally named "Protagonist" and is given near to no characterization. At this point it is clearly an artistic choice but it still makes his movies "harder to connect with" so to speak.
Because of that, I personally find myself enjoying his movies intellectually for their masterful craftsmanship, but they do not stick with me emotionally if that makes any sense.
@@Slinaro youre ignoring memento dude
Your problem with the Harvey Dent complaint is the this movie is just an adaptation of each character. The movie is a different interpretation of this character vs the Comics.
I disagree with you. The fact that joker has real motivation and wants Batman specifically to understand that he does this for a reason is a very good thing. Joker doesn’t go around explaining his plans to everyone, only twice does he tell his intentions, once in the interrogation room, and once to the people in the boat, because he wanted to prove a point. This is something he does in the comics as the killing joke is based on joker trying to prove something to Batman
The Joker definitely has told the police and Batman who he's targeting in past iterations. Right away I think of Batman#1 and the laughing fish from TAS.
According to my head canon about the movie, sure he's the biggest schemer in the movie but that's the point. He doesn't want to be the solution for anything. At the end of the day with all his ideals he's still just a psychopathic murderer, anyway you slice it, no matter what he stands for. You can apply that same logic to Anton Chigurh as well.
I always interpreted that the long, drawn out speeches by Joker explaining why he does what he does and the methods of his madness as bragging
I think they were trying to be true to the comics with the Batman voice. In the comics his voice is different depending on if he's Bruce or Batman. The early runs describe his Batman voice simply as ice cold, deep and chilling. In the 90s it was described as deep and rough and that it's like razor blades. Earpy 2000's had it as a rough deep growl. This is the one I think Bale was trying to do. It doesn't sound good but it is kind of accurate to the description in the comics.
Also, Tim Drake (the best Robin) said that Bruce often had a hard time keeping from slipping into his Batman voice during his day to day Bruce Wayne activities.
I don't know why the algorithm hasn't been kind to you. Your content is consistently excellent. I loved this commentary. Thank you and keep it up!
Heath Ledger's Joker also made Dalton Cupid otf knives not only incredibly expensive, but nearly impossible to find. I almost bought a mini version a couple months ago, but a few marks on it and still $600--and that's for the mini version, not the full-size that Ledger carries throughout the film. I'll get my hands on a mint condition model one day, but it will probably cost >$2000.
I don't think this version of Joker thinks he's a dog chasing cars at all. The only person I think he was honest to was Batman. He's not telling Harvey about himself, he's telling Harvey he's not responsible for his actions, and implanting the same idea into Harvey's head. That's where this version of Two-Face comes in. He's not responsible for his actions, it's just fate.
my biggest problem with this trilogy is that it feels like it’s afraid to be a comic book adaptation. it tries so hard to be grounded and is too afraid to lean into the comic book weirdness that gives the batman mythos its strength
If you read the comics it is the movie takes the core story concepts and themes from the Long Halloween and the Killing Joke.
in a weak way I've read those comics by the way...nolan almost seems embarrassed by batman and more comicbooky elements in some ways.........I get the reception of batman and robin was horrific but imo he went to far the other way.@@petermj1098
The biggest problem I have with Nolan's trilogy is the massive time jump between 2nd and 3rd movie where Bruce is wasting 8 years of his life locked up in his mansion doing nothing. These are the years he should have been at his prime as Batman and fought all kinds of iconic villains of Gotham. Instead his legacy as Batman is only two years of his life. He spent his whole youth training to become a vigilante, all that training for almost nothing. He should have called himself Butterflyman instead with that short lifespan of a career.
The coin had one side burned during the warehouse explosion, thus changing the I make my own luck to a literal game of chance.
Well put. I used to love the Dark Knight films, but they haven't aged too well with me. As I read more of the comics I realized there's a lot of issues. I can still enjoy them, but they're not as good as I remembered. One thing I realized that you touched upon was the in depth monologues that Joker and the other characters have. They sound like what fans and creators would talk about the characters representing within the lore, such as Bruce saying "as a symbol I can be incorruptible" and so forth. I think Nolan is a good director, but he tends to hammer the point into the audience's head.
Nah they still hold up
finally someone with my opinion. Bale's batman has no intimidation factor. I swear all of gotham's criminals are still experiencing some lingering effects of Scarecrow's fear toxin
Nah
The first scene he appeared as batman was terrifying in Batman begins
I felt they achieved that in the first one where he fought in shadows. We saw criminals afraid at the docks. But they moved away from that in the second and third.
@@camillechammas4468 Nah man not to me. If only there was a brutal fight (man the fight scene was a joke), it was okay... and also they just tossed even that off in the next movie..
Fun fact about the Dark Knight Rises! Deathstroke appeared in this film... Only to be killed by Bane. According to official canon, the CIA agent that Bane kills in the plane scene is actually named William Joseph Wilson with the official alias of "Slade".
Everything they did right by Bane? Bane wasn’t even present in that movie! It was just Ubu with a metal mermaid man mask!
Excuse me but he's refered to as the self proclaimed "clown prince of crime"
Talia was done the most dirty tbh.
I won't get into who got dirtied the worst, but I would point out that EVERYBODY got dirtied except maybe Alfred & Lucius
Also great Harvey introduction would be him sitting down flipping a coin
It wasn't just Rachel that caused him to give up the cape . He gave up because they won and said it clearly in the movie that they won and he also was banged up he needed a brace and motive to go back out and that's when bane comes into play.
also bruce wayne died in the alley with his parents, batman is all that’s left.
Christian Bale nailed the Billionaire playboy persona of Bruce Wayne and easily the best
He totally did, Michael Keaton was not a good Bruce Wayne. He was just basically being low key, non comedic Michael Keaton . Bale nailed the smarmy, give no fuck attitude.
I agree with most of this video, but just wanted to say that the thing with the Joker leaving clues actually is in line with his first appearance and the Steve Englehart Laughing Fish story which was a tribute to that first appearance. He would announce who he was targeting and leave clues to toy with the authorities. It isn't a defining modus operandi with him like it is for the Riddler but he does have an occasional history of doing it from his first appearance on.
8:20 I don't know if you'll address this later in the video but I'm commenting before I forget, but I personally found when Two-Face said " the Joker's a Mad Dog, I want who let him off the leash" that was a really good example of what you're getting at.
The Nolan fan boys aren't gonna like this one lmao
The I’m a dog chasing cars thing isn’t self analyzed. He tells that to Harvey so he can be manipulated, as in joker just does thing without plans, but in the whole movie you can see that isn’t true as the opening starts with joker robbing a bank, not for the money, but to get in contact with the mob. All of this would mean joker had to plan how to get the money, to kill everyone of his goons and escape in a bus that leaves at the same time as different busses, just to go and deal with the ones he robbed. Pretty sure that is a guy with a plan. If anyone else would say that joker is just some guy chasing cars, then that guy would have been an idiot, not observing the jokers actions. The point was Harvey blamed joker, but joker pretended that he didn’t plan any of it, even though he gave Batman the wrong address on purpose, just so two face could blame Gordon and Batman
Christopher Nolan : It's all part of the plan...
Audience : EXCEPT THAT YOU HAD TO EXPLAIN IT TO ME ! IF YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN A JOKE THERE IS NO JOKE !!!
A fascinating and incisive analysis of key characters in Nolan’s trilogy. That you’re able to pack so many points into each character’s segment is impressive. Some points I hadn’t thought of. Others I did consider, but decided against. Overall though. a thought provoking take.
Except for his not knowing anything about the joker yet talking like he does.
This critique is LONG overdue. I didn't like the Nolan trilogy at all. I didn't like the lispy carriage in Bale's mouth that looked goofy under a cowl whenever he spoke. I didn't like the Jimmy Durante delivery in Batman's voice. I didn't like the dumb look of the cowl itself. I didn't like how Batman's back was broke in the 3rd movie and the time it took for him to recover and the time it to for Gotham City to fall completely under and save itself from Bane's Martial Law and the time.....um, well let's just say that time was compressed and whipsawed back and forth worse than it was in the last season and a half of Game of Thrones, where characters crossed the ocean in just a few segments just to push the narrative along quicker. I always thought Batfleck was a (very welcomed!) direct response to everything that was wrong with Bale's Batman.
These critiques have been out, they're just finally compiled into one
The best on -screen batman adaptation is obviously Robert pattinson
Correct
@@cotopaximusic Finally, a man with fully functioning brain
Fr
Incorrect.
Adam West will always be the peak
@@gplgs4640 Jokes aside, we'll love that potrail always.
My little brother who loves the gritty Batmen absolutely loved the 1966 show and Adam. He's for everyone who wants to have fun
If you look close, joker is holding the hammer of the revolver in the harvey dent scene.. even if Harvey chose to kill him the gun wouldn't have gone off
All this makes me think of is how we were robbed by not getting a full Batman Story/Trilogy with Ben Affleck. That’s always gonna be one of the biggest screw ups by DC. Even though Pattinson/Reeves do have a great interpretation of the universe, I always wanted to see just what kind of level Batfleck could have been brought to.
I can't wait for more of Matt Reeves' Batman series. Robert Pattinson was phenomenal as Batman, and I also loved him as Bruce before he created the persona. A lot of people had issues with how he played Bruce Wayne because he was too much like Batman in the film, but they completely ignore that that's the whole point. I really want more from this series because I think this can be what The Dark Knight couldn't. Even though I think Barry Keoghan should be Hush and not the Joker.
HARVEY DENT
always had 2 sides to his personality
the 1st side is logical
&
believes in justice
the 2nd was
UNSTABLE & EMOTIONAL
&
psychologically damaged
his facial damage
drove him over the edge
When they bring two face onto the big screen again or a live action tv show, they should have him wear those preppy fun shirts that Ralph Lauren or brooks brothers make. You know the ones that are made from different fabrics. They have half and half versions. They even have fun suits that are multiple colors.
Were there scenes and interactions with Talia that looked like one thing before the big reveal but recontextualized into AHA after the reveal, a la 6th Sense? I don't remember, and you don't go into it.
two face should have killed the joker after he blew up the hospital, and then the last act of the movie would be two face being the one doing joker's social experiment, but it's more of a lecture on the duality of human nature, the two sides of the coin, etc
They never explained why they called him Two-Face when he was in internal affairs.
Internal affairs investigate the police. So essentially he worked for the police but also investigated them. He'd smile being friendly to you in the break room, but when he got to his desk he was investigating you for something dirty. So they called him two face. I thought this was all self evident. Unless you don't know what Internal affairs or what a two faced person is.
Heath Ledger had an advantage.. I think when an actor wears a lot of facial makeup, it’s easier for them to feel safer hiding in a character than if they had no makeup. Sure it didn’t benefit Bale’s performance with his mask but I think it definitely ON AVERAGE makes acting much easier because they feel less like themselves..
I agree, even when I was a child, I always felt like these were movies(amazingly made and high quality movie) with a batman theme.(I might be quoting on of your old videos).
10:00 I have to disagree. Joker does do this, whenever he's luring Batman into a trap. And that's what he's doing the entire time here, so it makes sense he's up to that. Joker knows Batman looks for a method to the madness and gives him the trail he wants him to follow.
I hated the bat voice I get that it’d be logical for Bruce to do it so people wouldn’t recognize his voice but man I hated it so much(Batfleck did it a lot better)
I liked it in batman begins but It gets worse as the movies go on. As much as I'm not a fan of ben Affleck's batman the voice modulator was a clever and cool idea.
batman and amanda waller after credit scene is the only place where u hear afflecks batman voice without the robot voice,,, it’s bad ass af
Man... I totally agree with everything you're saying here. Except Two-Face. This is probably my favorite Two-Face depiction. I agree, he's off the mark when it comes to portraying split personality disorder, but I think they weren't aiming for that anyway. I think he was meant to be a "two-faced" control freak, a courageous man of honor, but with a more brutal and cruel nature that only comes out when things slip out of his control.
His choose-your-own-destiny coin was a symbol of that, his own ironic facade that made him feel in control; and he went mad when Joker convinced him that his pretend methods of control were poorly calibrated and pretty silly in the face of chaos. So Harvey adapted to that realization and started using the coin to exert what little control he had over an unstoppable force, essentially realigning himself with a more powerful force in order to feel like he somehow embodied it: chance. That pretty much reveals that he only sided with the law because he perceived society to be a powerful force, which he probably feared, but eventually not so much since he'd been watching it crumble and fail the people who upheld it, i.e. Rachel.
And that perspective should make Joker feel a little more Joker-y when he's giving his speech about being an agent of chaos and a dog chasing cars. He knows he's neither innocent nor ignorant of what happened to Rachel, Joker knows full well he's a schemer too; he's just saying what he knows will flip Harvey's fear of overwhelming forces of nature on its head, to take advantage of Harvey's propensity to commit to a facade that he thinks will align himself with those forces.
I fully believe from Eckhart's performance that Harvey immediately clocked that Joker wasn't actually trying to make excuses or to seriously convince him that he was blameless, but that Joker was speaking to him through a pretense, trying to subtly communicate why Harvey's scheme lost out to Joker's scheme. I think Harvey recognized he was being mocked, so his response was out of a continuing desire for control. Harvey wanted to feel in control of the Joker, so he read in between the lines, taking Joker's advice.
Losing someone he loved at the hands of the Joker and having the guy show up to mock him for being a control freak was all it took to push him over the edge, because the only way for him to feel in control during that situation was to become something worse than the Joker. He turned evil because in that moment he perceived the Joker as the face of chaos, a force of nature, playing the game of control through aligning himself with an immutable law of nature. And being a desperate control freak with nothing left to lose, Harvey decided to buy in.
I think The Dark Knight is a great movie for two reasons, Joker and Two-Face. This Riddler-inspired Joker butting heads with Harvey Dent until he becomes Two-Face is a fascinating conflict that is both the bones and beating heart of the film's success. Unfortunately, Batman is only the mindless muscle taking us through the motions to encounter that core conflict, his actions occasionally serving as context for Harvey's struggle to adapt to gain control.
But then again, TDK doesn't really do either Joker or Two-Face any justice to their source material, it just uses their aesthetics to tell a completely disconnected story about the nature of chaos and control. It's more reinvention than adaptation. It's brilliant, but not very authentic. I am the League of Shadows.
Hey great video, would love to hear your thoughts on cameron monaghan joker
These are just my personal opinions:
Is obvious that The Joker has plans, he just say things to manipulate people.
The bat voice is due to Bruce being used to do it while in costume, like some people always use their business voice and manerisms while wearing a tie.
Bruce didn't gave up, he won. This wasn't the Bruce obsessed with "avenging" his parents, he wanted to restore order to Gotham and he did( or he believes it).
He moves on after Alfre tells him Rachel chose Harvey not because he has forget her, but because he has let her go. He believed they would be together if she was alive, now he knows they wouldn't. He was been faithful to a ghost, now he knows he doesn't has to.
Really no live action movie has really depicted Batman as the world's greatest detective, but this one was the one that tried the most.
This Harvey is not a person with DID, he's a fanatic of order. If law can't give him it, then Batman will, if not, at least chance.
Since Bane is not the real main villain he doesn't get the great death moment, but he's killed just at the moment he's about to kill Batman.
The key difference between clues left by the riddler, and the clues that the joker leaves is intent.
The riddler wants to challenge bat man, to prove that he is smarter. His goal is the game. It is an honest game that can be won by following it through ti the end.
The Joker's clues are a deception, meant to make Batman think he has a chance to win. They are supposed to give Batman a mystery to solve while The Joker gets on with his fun. The mystery is a joke. It doesn't offer Batman any opportunity to win, it is just the setup to the punchline.
Vee Infuso, everything you said about Batman, Joker, Two-Face, and Bane is spot on, you hit it right on the nail, bravo! 👏👏👏👏 Despite Christian Bale's wonderful performance as Bruce Wayne, I too, feel that his Batman voice didn't suit the character and made him sound goofy. Till this day, Bale defends his artisitic decision on playing Batman in the final product that we got! LOL! This was the same problem I had with Bane's character, solely being his voice. Tom Hardy did a great job as Bane. He had the physical intimidation aspect down right, but his cheesy voice undermines his menacing appearance. And of course, Heath Ledger was awesom as the Joake but his version of the role in which he reveals his plans for wreaking havoc on Gotham City is something that he would never do, as you said, he would just do it, in fact, this is more in line with The Riddler character. And as for Two-Face, yes, Aaron Eckhart killed it as Harvey Dent, however, when he transforms into Two-Face, there was not really enough of inner turmoil conflict that is present in the comics and especially in Batman: The Animated Series, but the character of Harvey Dent was done right prior to his fall from grace.
Please consider doing a video of Anne Hathaway's portrayal of Selena Kyle in the near future!
I look forward to seeing more of your insightful and intellectually stimulating videos! You just earned a new subscriber! 🙂
How about Rachel writing to Bruce that she's moving on, okay-how about you tell him in person instead of writing A breakup letter.
Jack Nicholson’s Joker is No1 and definitive.
Liking or disliking, or even nitpicking, a rendition of a character is subjective and always valid, but saying the joker is not in it for the recognition is just plain wrong, or some contrarian headcanon. In the comics, animations and movies, this is a character that is characterized mainly for being a crime diva, obsessed with the spotlight, always announcing his latest scheme on TV to all of Gotham to create panic. Jack Nicholson did this, Heath Ledger did this, even Joaquin Phoenix went on TV to murder someone live on primetime. Mark Hamill's joker also loved being on camera, taunting all of Gotham in many episodes. If anything, the riddler is usually more cryptic, for obvious reasons, but the joker himself is known for creating no-win scenarios where he explains the rules of his sick game and laughs while people squirm.
the problem i had was everything taking place off screen- like it was shot to be ratedR and then later edited to be pg.
The problem with the dark knight is that after joker throws Rachel off the roof of Wayne penthouse and Batman saves her, joker is still in that building. There is no reason he shouldn't have been caught right then and there.
Exactly I can truly say I love all the characters of Tim Burton batman 🦇 movies batman 1989 the movie and 🦇 batman returns 1992 with dark knight you either like batman or joker or both but not the cast
I didn't like the Nolan batman movies because they changed the way batman operates. I share a lot of the same opinions as vee for why I don't like them, but I also love the movies for the same reasons I didn't like them.
I agree, however when he sat down and explaining himself, that made him all the more interesting for me. We never got that before, this time we got a deeper look at the character.
I think that whenever you're going to bring a character who was originally created and a literary form which, comic books mostly are, then each actor needs to make the part something of their own or they have failed. That is where Cesar Romero Jack Nicholson Heath Ledger and Mark Hamill have all succeeded. I never saw the Joker movie.
Your counter point is that Mark Hamill's character was completely on point to the original comics, and he had nailed every aspect of the character. Even though he's animated, Mark Hamill is still the best Joker ever
Hero arc good.
Joker is great.
Martial arts is meh.
Detective skills is none.
You should make videos on the 90s Ninja Turtles trilogy
I haven’t see them for years now, completely forgot about it
You asked, why Bruce became Batman, motivated by his parents’ death, then quit because his wished-to-be-girlfriend died? That’s because he didn’t become Batman because his parents died. When his parents died, he felt sad, upset, and depressed. He was miserable most of his life but then when Rachel pointed out that Gotham is dangerous and terrible and it’s run by criminals. She says “Somebody should do something. Look at the guy over there. He’s getting beaten up in the streets. Someone’s got to do something” Then that’s when Bruce gets motivated to be Batman, by going to get arrested halfway across the world to learn to be a criminal like an idiot. Then when she died, there’s no reason to be Batman anymore because she was the reason why I was Batman in the first place. I gotta hang up the cape after the police dogs finished chewing on it
I initially disliked this video because I'm a TDK fanboy. It's my favorite Batman film. Then, when you went into the Dent murders and how they could've just pinned the murders on Joker to keep the Dent act AND Batman. I always understood why they didn't want Dent's work undone, but I never understood why it had to be pinned on the Bat. I agree, but I forgive its potholes and wordy, exposition dialog because it's just so awesome.
That "Obi-Wan" bit killed me because the way you were setting it up, it made me think of that "certain point of view" line, then you actually referenced it.
They can't pin it on the joker because they happened after he was arrested and he has an alibi for the others as he was doing his whole boat thing and the police knew exactly where he was as they were planning a SWAT raid to get him.
Batman pinned it on himself because he wanted to teach Gotham what Harvey taught him which is “You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villian”. He didn’t want Harvey to be see as the villian in Gotham so he made him seen as a villian and Harvey die being a marytr.
And Batman is not the kind of person to pin a crime on someone else who didn’t do it.
I really didn’t like the casting of Anne Hathaway for Selena and I think it hasn’t aged well at all too
Idk man, those shots of her ass in that outfit climbing onto the bat pod have aged pretty damn well for me
I still love them better than any Marvel film with the exception of Civil War . Only real issue is that they looked like Chicago and not Gotham City.
It seems apparent that Bruce and Rachel were probably not in love. They had strong attachments. If they were in love she would never had chosen Dent. It seems Bruce uses her as a symbol of a life he wanted. He had more in common with Selena. They knew each other better. So his feeling of less was less for her than a dream he had.
Only recently discovered your channel but dam a Batman fan who shares my views on the Nolanverse Gotham and Batman Forever!
Another certified hood classic
Why do white people need to ruin everything
@@John-Doe-Yo - Get over yourself.
@@fintanbochra word
@@John-Doe-Yo - @user-bi5uq1hi2t • 14 minutes ago
Why do white people need to ruin everything
@@John-Doe-Yo- I saved it for you, in case you accidentally deleted it
I may be in the minority but I loved Bale's voice as batman. These movies will always be in my top favorites.
7:20 what you’re describing here is Nolan’s single biggest flaw imo. His characters don’t converse, they are exposition bots. Inception, Tenet, Interstellar etc. Throughout 90% of the film his characters are either explaining what’s going on, or explaining what the point, theme or central thesis of the story is. Movie characters don’t have to feel 100% true to life, but often I have trouble believing they are even real people within the context of the fiction itself, mostly because they act like mouth pieces for Nolan explaining himself.
Have to say, your "why would batman take the fall, put it on the joker" crtique is because Christopher nolan BRILLIANTLY depicted how society as a whole waa blaming batman, hating batman the whole movie and claiming him responsible for the jokers actions(which is wrong but that's a realistic depictiom of how society operates, never blame the bad guy doing it, blame thr good guy you had hope in that they wrongfully feel let down by, harvey dent inspired a hope in gotham that batman never could so it would martyr harvey. And they probably wouldn't have liked batman despite him sacrificing himself for harvey dent, society is strange that way but i thought it was brilliantly Realistic
Also the harvey dent coin flip was everything to the character in that, people with deep moral code for good or for bad. Are usually superstitious or have some other worldly beleif to guide their moral code. So the broken coin would be like people who believe on making their life choices on dice(which is slightly common) so harvey dent already preprogrammed idea that his life is governed by a super stituion. Than have it fall apart on you like "god why have you forsaken me" coin, makes complete sense he would that become deranged by using a coin flip", its like how batman and joker are both the same mental illness just different sides of spectrum, a dude who puts a bat costume on and gives himself to an ultimate good, everything matters, is just as insane as a guy in clown make up and becomes ultimate chaos because nothing matters, harvey dent is JUST as mentall ill, it just doesn't appear that way because he got into a more traditional and socially acceptable role being a district attorney. But its why police and mob backed down or caved when the jokers mayhem became to much but dent didn't, cause he was as insane, just in the pursit of "doing the extreme right thing" so the coin flips to him "doing the extreme bad thing"
These movies have not aged well for me. I loved them at the time but they’re just kind of meh when I rewatched them recently. (With the exception of Heath Ledger being the highlight of the trilogy)
Batman begins is probably my favorite it feels more like Batman
Its Nolan movies in general. They are great spectacles and leave great impression after first watch but later its not that great. And the fact that every character literally spoon fed you everything about every scene doesn’t help.