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I wanted to point something else, yes having a cure that makes people "uninfectable" (i know this is not the case medical viewpoint but stick with me ), the problem of the world is different, the infected is still out there, cold winters, lack of supplies, lack of order, FEDRA and Firefly war ( which is absurd btw ), looters and hunters ( the c@nn1bals included ), lack of medical supplies ( imagine mass producing a cure when you cant even make basic antiobiotics but this is for later ), the thing im trying to say, at remake I read almost every note, I know why the raiders at mid game are the way they are ( there are notes that rebellion caused them to go wild and start c@nnibal1sm and raiding ), I know fireflies trying to bring democracy while people are starving ( hardly have access to basic needs and they are being dillusional ), the magical cure will not save the world, yes knowing getting bited wont be end of you is nice, this still doesnt change the fact that infected can still k***l u, you can di€ from any thing i said before, I think that fireflies and others should focused on unity,order,security of their societies, before they had the fantasy of a cure, I have zero faith at fireflies, they are soo dillusional with their war that they will eventually use "cure" as a political tool to take down FEDRA and nothing else, even if they somehow make this cure and distribute it magicly none of the problems will ever go...
Yours is the first video essay I’ve seen mention her age as a factor to her consent, which I appreciate. People never seem to take into consideration that even if she had been asked, she wouldn’t have been in a place to properly consent to such a drastic measure
On top of that, she’s also ‘under duress’. Even if she could consent, she’s arguably being made to make a decision while under psychological stress that almost coerces her into the decision. Should she be in her 20s, she has more autonomy and critical thinking capacity for making that decision, but still under the influence of the suffocating circumstances she finds herself living in.
Its the apocalypse rules & laws are no longer in effect. Thats also stupid af. If someone wants to die in a world where u could very easily be grabbed up & made a slave, raped for years, cannibalized, or brutally ripped apart by infected or all of the above together! U have zero right to take away someones choice to die peacefully in this new world. Yall weird af.
I feel like in that universe though a lot of kids have to grow up and in general in that type of universe choosing to want to live or not shouldn’t be controversial because it is a hard terrible world and if someone doesn’t want to keep going that’s understandable, Ellie may be young but she and a lot of others her age are forced to understand heavy things like this. I get the age thing completely but I feel like you have to tie in the context of the universe (I haven’t watched the video yet just scrolling through comments lol)
@@mandywardrop7279 I disagree with this argument. Even if she's gone through a lot, she's still a child and still has less life experience than someone Joel or Marlene's age, and they're using that life experience against her.
On the point about sparing NPCs, I'll note that during the firefly hospital section, I did actually manage to spare one NPC and the dude ran for dear life. It was quite shocking tbh because most times I wait for the NPCs to get back up and proceed to kick their heads in the second they raise any weapon at me ( I had a thing for justifying my kills in games back then ). Till today, My brother chalks it up to being a glitch but I honestly like to think the mechanic was probably accounted for.
I think that is a thing that can happen in The Last of Us. I remember playing the original ps3 game back in 2013, can't recall what level it was but it wasn't the finale, it was outside and during the day. An enemy begged for his life and when I lowered my gun he ran away and escaped. It was surprising because that sort of thing was very unexpected, especially back then. I was actually disappointed that mechanic didn't seem to return in part II.
@@katefrost8500 I frigging knew it, the problem now is knowing how to trigger it. I don't know if it happens because you consistently give people a chance or because a random variable in the games code that only rarely occurs.
From a practical scientific standpoint, killing Ellie is actually a very stupid thing to do. Given the nature of her immunity, it's not at all clear that you could synthesize a "vaccine" that would have the same effect. She's infected. Her body just doesn't respond to the fungus the same way. They have no real idea of why she works the way she works, and killing her would cut off their access to additional tissue and a study subject if their initial guess is wrong. If the useful thing turned out to be in her blood, bone marrow, or living tissue -- they'd be putting a clock and a hard limit on their ability to use it for any purpose. It's bad ethics and it's bad science.
On top of that, there is no logistic system to get the vaccine out to people in need, would the fireflys even supply to people who work with/support the military that they are actively attacking?
@@DonnieDaise Sure, I can't say 100% it wouldn't work, but it pretty nearly 100% wouldn't work. And there are less permanent and invasive methods that are (at least collectively) more likely to work that haven't even been attempted. So why on earth would you jump to the thing that prevents you from trying anything else? It's just pragmatism. If you're filming a movie and you need to shoot a lot of scenes in a car, and in one of those scenes you blow the car up, you shoot that scene when you're sure you have all the other footage you're going to need.
@@MertKayKay YOU AREN'T WRONG THOUGH. Also there is currently *no* vaccine of any kind that is approved to fight or treat a fungal infection. So what are the odds that some scrappy underfunded randos in an old university hospital are going to figure it out on their first attempt? Also, one of the ONLY promising fungal vaccine candidates uses monoclonal antibodies, for which you absolutely do not need or WANT a dead human source. If they'd managed to formulate a vaccine for ant cordiceps or monkey cordiceps using the same technique then perhaps this would be a legitimately balanced choice. But as it is, even if Joel hadn't cared about Ellie, he would have been right to get her out of there. The IRB never would have approved this mess.
It would've been even worse if the fireflies had intended to breed Ellie to see if it was something genetically inheritable. That would've had higher success rate in terms of finding a vaccine since they'd have multiple subjects, assuming it was something genetic. But would've been extremely messed up.
Yeah, take some of her eggs and do ivf on numerous other women. Then, you dont need to wait 9 months per kid. The issue is then that they may have to wait for the baby to mature to a similar age to Ellie before the immunity kicks in. For that matter, Ellie might not even be genetically immune. It might just be the fungus that evolved to not degenerate the human mind. So, take some spores from her and infect some people first. There are so many steps to do before just killing her, even if we want to be pragmatic and kold hearted. Emotionally, the ending hits hard. But with the introduction of the sequel were we are told that they 100% would be able to make a cure from sacrificing their only immune patient. It just doesn't make sense.
@@galaxychill9578 At least it would make way more sense than just jumping the gun straught to killing her when they had no idea if that would even help them out at all. at least give less lethal methods a go first just in case she needed to be alive for them to make a cure
Personally, I think a big part of why I struggled with TLOU2 was because it came out during lockdown here in Australia and unlike the first game, where it felt like even though the world you are playing in is depressing and sad, you're working towards something good, something hopeful, in the second game you're working towards something bleak and exhausting, and the real world was already bleak and exhausting. It felt like a slog to get through. I left the game feeling like shit.
Neil Druckmann for ScreenRant, "Things you might have missed in The Last of Us Part II" 1. Violence is bad, actually 2. Its kinda fun to play though, huh?
Spec Ops: The Line told a similar message. That's all good but my problem is not giving the player any other choice. You're forced to do the phosphorus scene in Spec Ops and TLoU 2 says that we killed all the doctors, and doesn't allow us to back away from the revenge plot. It feels very condescending when the game forces you down one track and says, "Look how bad you are" while not offering any alternatives
@@crimzonpegasus9714 I was okay with it, because, like BioShock, we’re along for the ride. My interpretation of SO:TL was that it was a horror game with a military aesthetic, but apart from that, the game is about military shooters and how many parts of a conflict they have to cover up to make them palatable. I was upset that Ellie didn’t kill Abby at the end of TLOU2 because it thwarted her arc and the tragedy set in motion. Ellie gave up everything. She shouldn’t have blinked
@@crimzonpegasus9714 Spec Ops: The Line, it does force you to bomb civilians with white phosphorus. You can even figure out the twist before you pull the trigger. However the story accounts for this, Captain Walker tells Lugo and Adams, before they set up the mortar to launch the phosphorus that they "have no other option," once confronted with the horrific aftermath of his actions he denies responsibility. Telling his operatives that Konrad did this, that Konrad was going to pay for what Konrad had done. (Side Note: During development, writers did consider choice within the game. You would have been able to leave at the first signs of trouble when entering Dubai and able to fight your way through the encampment with guns instead of chemical weapons, however this was cut as it was too easy to just choose the "good" option.) To criticize the lack of choice in Spec Ops: The Line is to be in the same headspace as Captain Walker. This is gonna piss a lot of people off and understandably so, I have my gripes with the narrative but I do think that in the story was executed perfectly. The open hostility to the player and general misanthropic nature perfectly complimented the suitably dark story. And it also did it, without caving in Walker's surrogate dad's skull with a golf club and not have him track down Konrad from Angola to Dubai just to forgive him after he destroys the Damned 33rd.
Almost as if the game isn't actually trying to make YOU feel bad for it, and instead feel bad for the character you play as and their victims. @@crimzonpegasus9714
I'll quote one other UA-camr, who also talked about Fireflies' morality: "You're okay with playing Unit 731, but disrespecting someone's sexuality is out of the question for you?!"
To be fair to the show, their version of Joel is much less of a closed off prick than game Joel. I think Bill's character in the show was changed in a way that made sense and that pushed Joel to make the decision to save Ellie in the end instead of being a dark reflection of Joel. I think that's a pretty neat way to change Bill's story and still give him an important role in Joel's development as a character.
I think because of the character development we see when playing along side bill in the game, it would be hard to translate that gameplay into something interesting to watch on screen. I like the tv adaptation because it felt natural. It felt like they had played the game and wanted to do it justice. Bill was a hard dude who lost the only person he ever slightly gave a shit about, but the show adds value to the relationship we see in the game. I like that. Leaves less ambiguity about their relationship than in the game.
Also, while in the show they do both die, it feels a lot less "burry you gays"y then in the game. you get to see a good decade + of their relationship, and while the ending of it is bittersweet af, its not all that tragic as most "burry you gays" moments, its two old dudes at the end of their lives going out together how they want to go out, enveloped in the love they have for each other, in a world where thats a very, very rare occurrence. Plus it still emphasizes how importance of letting folks in and how rewarding that can be, just from a different angle, Bill literally lets Frank into his home and heart, and you see that lead to the closest thing that world has to a dream life and a happy ending, and its gods damed gorgeous to boot. Idk I really loved what the show did with it.
Also just to add with show Bill. We see that you can still have yourself a happy ending despite the world being destroyed, and it might be the only happy ending we’ll ever see in TLOU as a whole
Fun Fact: The player forgiving Joel for all his misdeeds due to valuing his virtues is a direct mirror of Mert's audience forgiving Mert for not wanting Bill and Frank to be happy.
I think Tess was definitely referencing at least partly the romantic tension between her and Joel. The two were very flirty, and while that is totally fine among BFFs, I always saw the two as having a romantic tension neither wanted to really discuss or commit to.
I had to put my phone down after you showed the Ellie killing whatever that stupid rapist's name was and Joel calling her baby girl. Like what. How am I supposed to go on after that?? It gets me every time
The relentless roasting of sites like ScreenRant's incredibly keen and thought-provoking game journalism was just a lovely sprinkling on top of this delicious video-essay sundae :)
I once watched a video essay (can't find it again) that made the point mainstream Hollywood movies can't have a truly grey protagonist or actual moral question. It kinda explains The Last of Us’ ending.
if nothing else, i think its very telling how so many GamersTM conflated a "protagonist" with a "hero" and just can't cope with it. Like, is media literacy really this low? The hysteria over what happened to Joel couldn't have been more 'bro do you even nuance?' Which is made worse by the fact that TLOU/2 isn't even that deep. Its pretty basic though dramatic, stuff.
@Satya Hahaha! You see it a lot in Shonen anime especially, where the protagonist -> the Chosen One, and their actions are always morally just. It's why people have such an issue with Eren Jaeger being criticised (for example).
@@shenotski Caring about a character can't be undermined. If you care, you care. Just because you don't like what happened to them doesn't mean you stop caring, and that you're upset about what happened to the character so much, rather proves the games did a good job. Just because you can't move on, doesn't mean you get to say it was poor writing. Writers are under no obligation to give you exactly what you want. Such is life. And indeed letting go and moving on is rather the point of TLOU2. Let Joel go :P he wasn't a hero, or a good guy and liked him though many did, acceptance is your only option.
It’s kinda funny to consider how many overlaps there are between Joel and Kratos, as men who damn their worlds in the face of loss. I find it kinda interesting how that series is both a lot less afraid to condemn its protagonist directly, but also has him grapple with the responsibility of his actions and work towards a form of redemption. Makes you wonder what TLOU2 would have looked like if they weren’t afraid to actually take a stance on Joel’s actions.
29:52 This actually isn't Ellies first kill! Her first kill was an infected woman, and her second kill was her infected best friend :) Though, in TLOU2, she does talk about this (the guy in the hotel) as her first kill.
I have a very personal view of TLOU2. I mostly ignore Neil's whole deal cause I find him to be infuriating but I did find Ellie's journey through revenge an interesting character analysis, like I think that going through the journey is less about "violence bad" but more about Ellie learning about what made Joel like that. Like I personally see it as a journey through her loss and through the trauma of seeing someone you love killed and the hopelessness of not being able to do any about it. I also find that making Ellie just as morally grey as Joel was to be an interesting deal, like someone who we love can also do deeply violent and cruel things. I dont know, maybe its a bit of bias on my end, I actually do like Abby and Lev, even if their main plot is grossly done (lev's mostly)
I wanted to write a comment about my love for TLOU2 but you did it a lot better than I ever could, I too really enjoy the story from BOTH perspectives which is very different from most people, I grew to care for Abby and understand her struggles as well, the game makes it almost impossible to love Ellie wholeheartedly anymore because of how many chances she gets to walk away and live her life... she just can't do it till it's too late and it's frustratingly heartbreaking 😭 TLOU2 is my favourite game ever made personally, I can understand why people don't like it though even if it hurts my soul 🥲💀
This is exactly how I read TLoU2 as well. I played it in the months after dealing with my grandfather’s death and the whole thing felt like it was about dealing with the anger of grief.
Very funny that people continue to conspicuously ignore that TLoU2 was co-written by someone, her name is Halley Gross and she talked at length about it in the Naughty Dog documentary about the making of the game.
Which is ironic. Part 1 had one writer. Of course Bruce S. was greatly involved in the making of the story, but it had one credited writer. Part 2 not only had even more directors but it also had two writers. I feel people lie and say Druckmenn went “solo” so they can pretend it was all his misguided ideas and not a collaborate effort by a team.
The hardest easteregg I found while playing TLoU that not a single gamerrant list has ever pointed out is that the game is on. It is so difficult to actually notice this little detail while playing the game yet it stares at us during the whole campaign and even more! I've never seen such details in any other video games I've played
It’s actually a reference to Sherlock Holmes. One of the devs was clever enough to tell us that the “The game is a foot” AKA the game is both on & literally a foot also.
Babe wake up a new MertKay essay on something that lets me see a new perspective on stuff I already love to see if I can love it more and/or see if I can become more critical on the stuff I enjoy while also noticing stuff I haven't thought before just dropped (and just in time to be BG noise for doing art for a final)
I feel like for a lot of players, the final segment of TLOU is the closest they get to experience following a truly grey character they actually relate to, which is why their first instinct is to either disown the character to create separation with the self, writing Joel off as fully evil in his actions, or to somehow rob the situation of its complexities to make it a justified choice. Interestingly enough, something similar happened with this new indie darling: Mouthwashing. Though I don't want to go into detail and risk spoiling it for people who haven't played it.
@@MertKayKaygruff traumatized man finds self actualization through parenting a snarky teenage girl. The Witcher and TLOU know exactly what the people need
Bill's episode in the show was my favorite which I think is quite telling, as it was essentially a stand-alone story almost completely detached from the main plot, and not long after I lost interests in the show itself lmao
like I get that Bill is much better utilized in the game, it's what he was made to be, but I think I just like that type of story that his episode in the show was, alot better than the story the show or even this game is telling. it's just a matter of personal preference rly but yeah being given a taste of something I like better and knowing it wouldn't appear again in the show, it kinda turned me off the whole thing :/
The actors did a fine job overall in the whole show but episode three definitely stole the show which is Bill‘s episode iirc, but the thing is that the original voice actors and character models. Did Bill way better…. It is its own thing :p makes you wish that they incorporated that version & more storytelling when it comes Bill in the remake.. since that version I think beats the original bill. Not that it was bad. Just not much character development, since he was more of a show don’t tell short story. It is one change I really wish was actually put into the original. But idk if it would mess up the pacing of the game to add chapters of Tess & Joel interact with Bill & witness his life. Or maybe take too long? Man. I do not envy the people who have to make those decisions of what to cut out or change.
It’s been a while since I’ve finished last of us pt1 again and after watching not even the first 20 minutes of this video, it’s totally helped me come to terms with why the TLOU2 felt contrived. So much of the 2nd game is calling in Joel’s choice into question - with a lot of the conversation being around joel robbing Ellie of her autonomy. Yet, the firefly’s did the exact same thing. Joel and Ellie never got to talk about it beforehand, which I would have argued made it easier to question Joel’s decision at the end. Whereas the firefly’s never really gave us a reason to believe in them; as all we’ve seen was them being incompetent, beating joel whilst he was performing CPR, anesthetizing ellie against her consent, treating Joel at gun point to leave whilst talking down to him, etc. The world also didn’t do a great job of showing us that it’s worth saving. We see cruelty and ruthlessness at every corner of the games world, and there’s no indication that human society would ever be able to return to what it once was, cure or no cure. Great stuff, love the work you do
2 things I noticed as well: at the beginning of the game, he is more hesitant to shoot jimmy and tries warning him a couple times instead of shooting randomly. Also, when henry is pointing the gun at joel, he actually looks like hes afraid to lose his life (in a sense losing his purpose- protecting ellie)
I also agree about bill being a good boy. Especially at the end when he has the gas siphon ready for us even though we didn’t ask for it. He thought about what we would need to survive even as he made jokes about how we’re doomed. His actions show how he really feels
Neil's comment is similar to Ridley's answer regarding Blade Runner. BR's biggest "mystery" is "Is Rick Deckard a Replicant?" Is he able to track them down so efficiently because he is a replicant? Ridley Scott dropping out of nowhere that "Rick Deckard is a Replicant" hurts the movie more than anything. The question mattered, not the answer; the lack of an answer was important to invite people to think. Fun Fact: Ellie from The Last Of Us Part 2 is none other than Ellie from The Last Of Us Part 1 but older!
I really like how detailed and thorough this video is! And I also love how you addressed the Israel/WLF/Palestine/Seraphites issue, Neil adding "facts" to the game OUTSIDE of the game, and Bruce's strained relationship with the company. I think these points are rarely discussed in other video essays. I agree with most, if not all, your points. The only thing I'm not 100% on board with is Joel being "bad" mainly bc "bad" seems to be quite subjective to everyone at this point in time. He CAN be an asshole and he IS an asshole from time to time but I wouldn't categorize him as a bad person especially when we ALL have been assholes at some point in time due to certain circumstances. The mere fact that he's capable of genuine self-reflection, realizing his mistakes, and making amends w people makes me believe that he's not "bad".
I have been arguing since my very first playthrough of TLOU that the vaccine matters exponentially less than the fact that this story is about the kind of love that you would burn the world down to save. I think TLOU2 was trying to convey that in a revenge story, as well, but failed to execute the same level of careful story-telling that paints the player's actions as a necessity. Pair that with expecting players to get invested in the growth of a character who starts the game doing something unforgivable, and well-fleshed our characters behaving inconsistently with what we know about them, and you get a very flawed game that is difficult to enjoy.
Niel's "confirmations" of Ellie's surgery might be one of the most frustrating things I've ever seen a writer do, alongside J.K. Rowling and her Twitter ramblings on Harry Potter. It's completely unnecessary and moreover completely destroys the entire point the game was trying to get across and if I was part of the writing staff for the first game alongside him, I'd be absolutely PISSED that he said that. Nah, fuck that, I'd honestly be petty enough to write my own Tweet to completely rebutt his statement, saying that's his opinion and the reality is that it's left up to player interpretation, because THAT'S THE POINT. (Not to mention the fact that what the Fireflies were even trying to do was catagorically short-sighted at best and fucking stupid at worst. In all realms of Science, their "plan" was incredibly fucking risky, needlessly so I might add and they could've ended up dooming the one chance they actually have BY killing Ellie in the process. Niel "confirming" what he did completely removes all of that nuance as well and just makes the Fireflies seem like completely just, benevolent geniuses, which even FURTHER removes them from any moral ambiguity they could've previously had in the player's minds and hilariously, makes the treatment of Joel at the hospital scene when he wakes up seem even more out of place than it already was.) I have so many gripes with that whole "confirmation", if it wasn't glaringly obvious and so I thank you so much for both bringing it up and voicing why it's so fucking stupid to even attempt to do as such, because it's been rent free in my head ever since I seen it. Just so stupid! On another note: this video was brilliant and I really love your analysis here and your thoughts on how the hospital section was handled. As someone who played TLoU on release, back on the PS3 and oncemore when the PS4 was released, my memory was a bit foggy on the exact framing of how everything plays out - it's been a while. Your guide through the scenarios in the game/explainations were (as always) clear and consise and put me right back behind the controller in my head; a great refresher! I'm also absolutely convinced you're spot on about the ending. I remember always being conflicted and kinda being all straight faced on subsequent content, not really disliking or greatly liking it either, never feeling too strongly one way or another, but I realise a lot of that now is because I've been subconsciously hung up on how the last section of the first game never REALLY sat right with me and never really understanding why. Like, emotionally, it's there, but something always itched away at my brain somewhere and I think this video not only scratched said itch, but completely removed it. *This is an extremely long-winded way of saying this was (another) fucking solid video Mert! Glad I stayed up until 6am, insomnia riddled to watch every second of it! Look forward to the next one as always! Who knows? Maybe Niel being put on blast again for his grave writer's sin will allow me to sleep soundly!*
I disagree. It was pretty obvious to me when I played the game, that by the way Marlene announced the vaccine to Joel, it was pretty much confirmed that it could be done. I couldn't care less about how realistic or feasible a cure would be in this scenario, nothing about this world is realistic anyway. For all practical purposes, the fireflies figured out a way to develop a vaccine, and they were so confident about it that they were willing to kill Ellie. This is why Joel's response to Marlene isn't "you can't know for sure if it will work" or "there has to be some other way". He simply says "find someone else". He accepts the situation for what it is and realises the sacrifice he's willing to make. There wasn't supposed to be any ambiguity or interpretation about that, the ambiguity lies in the morality of Joel's character and his decision. Since a lot of people were getting caught up in hypotheticals that the writers never intended, Neil's confirmation makes sense to me. The question was never about "Would a vaccine even be possible?", it was "Would you have done what Joel did?". Also, while in the ending of the first game Joel can be seen as the one being selfish, the second game clearly shows that the fireflies' intentions for the cure were never really about their desire to save humanity, but for a desire to justify their cruel and horrific actions. Jerry, the surgeon who was about to save humanity, was driven by the same selfish motivations that Joel was. While trying to convince Marlene, he completely dehumanises Ellie, and shows the sunk cost fallacy that he's consumed by. "All of our sacrifices, all the horrific... All of that is justified with this one act."
What a coincidence you put out this video literally like a day after I randomly decided to replay it. The game's story and characters have really stuck with me ever since I watched a playthrough of it back when it came out (I didn't have a PS3, but also I was way too young to be playing a game like that at the time anyway). Still an all-time favorite of mine to this day.
I watched a playthrough too! I was an xbox/Nintendo kid so assumed I'd never get to play it. I'm glad we both got the chance to give this game a proper whirl because it is fantastic
So I didn't play the last of us at release, but for some reason I misremembered a synopsis of the plot and I kept thinking that the ending was that Ellie killed Joel after what he did to the fireflies. So for a while I was really confuse why people were so pissed that he died in part 2.
It's surprisingly sparse and only noticable when you consider the game as a metatextual reference and deeplore examined through a post-modern, post-media, post-marxist lense but my Gamerants detail you may have missed is this game is actually a take on the obscure horror subgenre of "zombie apocalypses."
The remaster of Ellie is such a bummer. They had to make her more similar to the Ellie of TLOU2, but that way they kind of removed the original Ellie, if that makes sense.
Yeah, for me it the opposite Effect where original Ellie looks like an anime huge eye puppy lol. It’s the other character that I sometimes prefer the old. Something about Joel’s new facial structure seems off. Like they completely changed his eye features & shape. Tess’ eyes also used to be massive and they could’ve made them just a teeny bit smaller but they decided to pretty much make her some older different woman lol. But hey, I’m the end, the remake looks insanely great if it is your first view of them it works just the same.
One thing the show did that I'm sure was on purpose is that they made it so that people are hunting Henry because he betrayed them for a cure which he got by ratting out their leader to the fireflies. Thus showing us that the fireflies don't necessarily use what they've got to help people, they often use their resources as bargaining chips to gain more power.
Great video essay. About the FF, I subscribe to the belief that you have to assume they would have been successful, for TLOU1 and TLOU2 to work. That’s just IMO, but Joel expressly tells Tommy in TLOU2 opening that “and they were going to make a cure”. He doesn’t question their ability either. Just tells Marlene “Find someone ELSE”. TLOU1 the original had grimey looking surgical suite. On TLOU2 and TLOU1R, it got retconned into a very clean and orderly place.
interesting you didnt like the live action bill. i can understand it, because he is not the same person as in the game. i personally like the episode. and there are 2 different versions for me where i can like both. i was more disappointed about the city. it was just few houses with traps outside the fence, but inside it was not like done. i would love to see a city with a lot of hidden traps between the alleys.
Back after finishing watching the whole video: I think the 2nd game wasn't about saying VIOLENCE IS BAD: in that world violence is NECESSARY. To protect yourself, the people you care about, your community. But the thing is how much is enough? How much is justified? I don't think the game wanted to give answers to these questions, but make us think about them... The other thing is we never usually get to play as a "bad person", and any bad thing we do is supposed to be justified...it was interesting to see the yeah, the people we love can hurt other people and make mistakes, and we can do that too... We can be the villain in someone else's life and not even question our actions because we think we are "right". Game is not perfect in any way, shape or form but me, personally, thought that was something completely different than "violence is bad, ok?"
actually gasped with glee when i saw this video come up in my feed. after the brutal takedown of part 2, i never thought this video would come, and i am so glad you made it. at the same time, TLOU is my favorite game of all time, having irrecoverably altered my brain chemistry from watching Markiplier's playthrough at a young age. let's see if this video makes me get my moth tattoo lasered off.
TLOU and Walking Dead Season 1 were how far you'd be willing to go to save your child. TLOU2 was a reaction and reflection on how these actions cause ripples and repeat cycles that even the best people struggle to break.
Also want to add because I feel like the first game also hammers home the idea that the fireflies are incompetent, the group is no where to be found UNTIL you get to their main base of operation. There was no guarantee they would even get a cure, I feel like if they really wanted to play with this idea of Joel "dooming the world" they shouldn't have written the group to be so incompetent that the game is literally a year of just trying to find them and always finding that they already left or died. It would've made actually more sense for the tyrannical government that existed to be doing something like this, then it would actually be morally grey I feel. A revolution faction at the end of their ropes by the beginning of the game and hanging by a string by the end of it, probably shouldn't be the anchor for creating a vaccine, it only felt like they were going through with it because they're desperate, hence why they treat Joel the way they do. EDIT: I feel like in the nicest way possible, you said Neil Druckmann is not a good writer and I appreciate that, and completely agree. He needs someone else to say no or his ideas just get out of hand. TLOU 2 suffers so much on it's pacing because of his writing. Not only as a story but even as a game I would argue.
I have historically been the biggest TLOU2 defender. I have been in the TRENCHES defending that game, but I have to admit, a huge portion of it was because of the "anti-sjw/anti-woke" backlash it received. Even to this day I'm still almost reactionarily defensive of the game, but your video has opened my eyes some to a lot of its major flaws.
Totally! It was so annoying to see the game brigaded by alt right weirdos. I love how TLOU2 plays but yeah I didn't enjoy the story - and the cultural war waged over it prevented any constructive discussion! Thanks for watching
That comment is spot on. I had a lot to criticize about that game, but I always had to distance my self from alt right grifters in order to do so and it was incredibly frustrating.
Geez. That’s stressful sounding. I don’t get why people waste a lot of time “defending” something over the internet. It doesn’t change much & it probably makes people who hate on it even more hateful of it & just is a big ball of people arguing pointlessly because in the end, it is what it is…
@Puppy_Puppington you'd think that but if you can reach even one person and make them THINK why they dislike it, instead of just hating it because it has women in it is worth it.
My biggest gripe with TLOU, as it evolved in this transmedia franchise… is that it evolved at all. The simple fact that Ellie is infected makes it impossible for me to buy into the idea of a sequel where she can have a family and not infect another person through consensual/non-consensual relationship. It’s like carrying an Alien but not giving birth. Who knows if an embryo can spread through kissing. As much as it is capable of giving fantastic character interactions, I no longer can buy in into the idea that their world can or needs to be saved. The intro is literally fantastic. For me, the game just went downhill and I played it 11 years ago on PS3. And my favorite moment was when Ellie gave the photo to Joel, if the player chooses to get it from Ellie… It’s a small moment, but it was effective! I’ve not replayed it since.
I and my family have adored this game for years, with my siblings and i dressing up as ellie and some infected and my father dressing as joel for comiccon in 2014, and to the point my younger sibling named themself after a character in the second game. Despite being self proclaimed experts on the game, you have so so many insights that we maybe considered but never fully explored, and you have made me fall in love with this game all over again
Man, I can't really judge the people in TLOU just due to how shitty and bleak that world is. Like, Joel legit terrifies the shit out of me, so imagine how fucking hopeless I felt in the David/Ellie chapter. I would have pulled a Henry almost immediately out of a sense of despair, I ain't built for this.
Of all the emotional moments in this game, the one that always makes me cry is when Sam tries to take that toy. I even teared up watching the scene in this video. The forced loss of innocence (is it a loss if he never was allowed to have it?) just gets to me like nothing else. This was a great essay, I'd love to see more videogame analyses from you!
I think tess knows about sarah because she says 'i get it' after her justifying why they should keep going despite finding out she is infected after joel says "do i need to remind you what is out there"
Didnt realise how much I needed someone to fairly criticise TLOU2 and Druckmann until now honestly... TLOU2 sucked, but all discourse around was poisoned by the stupid "Urhm 🤓☝️ how can woman have muscle! Woman cut sandwich not limbs ☝️" crowd. Going into TLOU2 I thought I'd love it as "revenge as cautionary tale" is one of my favourite story themes (ie, Medea's slaying of her kids) but the way it was presented in TLOU2 was so...weird?? It didnt feel anti revenge, it felt anti retaliation. Finding out Neil's dogshit views on Palestine morbidly explains his "violence is always bad, even if its against someone who mercilessly victimised you" views exactly. But, more relevant to the bulk of this video, despite The Last of Us being analysed to hell and back by everyone and their mom, I actually found this to be a unique analysis of it!! It didn't feel like it treaded old ground, It offered quite a few new takes on a game I've heard been dissected dozens of times. It always shocks me how you're able to dissect media In ways that make me re-consider my, what I believed were steadfast views on it....Another Mertkaykay banger!! Screenrant could never.
Thanks so much nohetero 😭 I was very worried about retreading other analysis so I'm really glad you found this unique. As always thank you for watching
I am of the personal belief that the anger and hatred the game makes the player feel from the Fireflies is entirely believable. You said it yourself; the Fireflies are incredibly pretentious and have overly inflated egos. They truly believe they can restore humanity. Anyone with that kind of belief in themselves reeks of narcissism. The true nature of the Fireflies has been foreshadowed since the beginning of the game: starting from the explosion that forces Tess and Joel to reroute, to Joel implicitly stating that Tommy was only a Firefly for a few months, to David's whole character. The biggest clue we get is when we meet Tommy. It's clear with the introduction and subsequent expansion of Tommy's character that Tommy is a good guy. He also is someone with lofty ambitions. So why, pray tell, would Tommy voluntarily leave an organization that has a seemingly respectable goal (of saving humanity through a vaccine) and ambitious plans? It's because the Fireflies are not who they present themselves to be, just like David. The ending is the reveal of this, and each moment of Marlene and the guard patronizing Joel to them never preemptively asking Ellie for consent is the 'showing' not the 'telling' of their true nature. That's the entire theme that The Last Of Us presents: there are no good guys in this world. The game could've told us this explicitly, having Marlene do a villain speech. But instead, through the actions and the emotional connection we have tethered to Joel and Ellie, it's subtly revealed.
the hidden detail that I noticed is that if you think about it, the story of the last of us could fit reasonably well into the zombie apocalypse genre! Also you can see giraffes at one point if you look close enough 🤯
I always look forward to your videos, you have such an amazing way of looking at media,. whenever you post i know im about to be sat rewatching all your videos for at least a couple hours 😂
I do think Joel told Tess. When they finally escape the guards and first get outside the walls. Joel has no hope about the endeavor, Tess looks at Ellie, looks at Joel, and says ‘I get it’ to me it felt like a deeper line than it first comes off as
Omg thank you for bringing up her age and the ability to consent during the surgery , there's often a reason why a guardian's permission is needed for important procedures in modern hospitals / medicine etc. It feels so morally and ethically wrong for the doctors to be desperate enough to take in a 14 year old girl just to experiment and essentially dissect her for the very minor chance to find a cure . I think the seriously small chance of the Fireflies finding a cure in the first place pushes us even more onto Joel's side , the fact that the cure can't even be guaranteed makes Ellie's death feel not worth it .
wow. this was one of the best and well written video essays i’ve ever encountered on youtube. i love video essays but finding ones that actually offer analysis rather than a bad AI summary is like looking for a gold in a haystack and especially in a category as saturated as TLOU. your analysis of the difference of what they show and tell you as far as Joel and Ellie really gave me a better understand of why it’s so effective and I never knew anything about Druckman’s co-writer. can’t wait to watch every video in this channel.
I got my UA-cam recap and it told me that after having watched 15 hours of your content this year, I'm in the top 2% of viewers of your channel. So, yes, there's 1% of people who've binged your greatness more than I have. Also I'm only halfway through this video. There was one point in the video where you say nobody will ever have to go through this, and then I had a nightmare about just that. And let me tell you, it's devastating. I woke up and cried for 30 minutes straight.
@@MertKayKay No worries! It just goes to show how engaging your words are, that I can have a nightmare about a game I've never played, just from your analysis of it! ♥️ That's commendable, really!
Wow, I was not ready to have my view on this game and it's ending shaken up like this. The level of analysis here is the best I've seen in a video essay in a long while. I'll definitely have to check out your other videos.
I cried while playing a few games: Journey, Night in the Woods, Silent Hill 2, Telltale 's The Walking Dead... But at the end of The Last of Us part 2, with the credits rolling and "Beyond Desolation" playing, I was bawling like a 2 year old... I had to drink a double whiskey, no ice, to settle the f down.... No other game traumatized me like that. I accept it is not perfect and the pacing is weird sometimes but when it does it right, which is most of the game, it's a steel punch to the guts..
I really enjoyed your analysis of TLOU. In general, I really enjoy when you do in depth analyses like these and I would definitely turn up for each of them. I'm also pretty sure this is nowhere near the bottom of your analyses to do, but I would definitely love to see you do a "A Plague Tale" analysis. I'm pretty sure "A Plague Tale: Innocence" and "A Plague Tale: Requiem" contain my favorite depictions of sibling relationship and lasting trauma in a video game. However, I know these games are not that well known and would understand if it wasn't in the cards at all.
@MertKayKay I sure hope you like them! Hugo has to be the cutest video game kid I ever encountered. Also, let's say these games were very unexpected coming from a studio who only did Microsoft flight simulators and licensed Disney/Pixar games.
God what a great video, you putted into words all the problems that i had with the end of part 1, i feel i weird longing for what could have been a more risky, explicit grey Joel, being what comes to be just a man taking some of the most difficult decisions that you can put someone through, pls keep bringing more content, you gained a fan
An actual fun tlou tidbit: when Joel gets emotional and starts tearing up, he turns away from who he’s talking to. We see this when he turns around talking to Ellie after Tess dies, and the scene where he wipes his tears away thinking about saying goodbye to Ellie. When he gets emotional when Ellie gives him the picture of Sarah later, the camera avoids turning to see his face until after he’s done talking. This also happens in the very brief moment you play Joel in the last of us part two, when Tommy says “can’t say I would have done any different. I’ll take it to the grave if I have to” Joel gets emotional and you can’t move the camera far enough to see his face. Joel’s on a whole new level of traumatized where he can’t even open up to the audience 😅
Excellent video. watching all these important, character defining moments back to back with the music tracks you chose brought tears to my eyes. I had forgotten how emotional this game made me. Fun fact. In the original version of the game, when Tess demands to know why Ellie's medical status said that she was infected, she actually didn't point her gun at her. The voice acting is the same throughout both versions, so the tone implies the threat, but she didn't actually aim the gun at her. It seems small, but this seemingly little change in character action informs us that Tess knew she was in control even without needing to hold a gun to a child's face. It somehow comes off as more badass to me, like she's in control in this situation both without needing to draw her gun, and it showcased her ability to remain calm in a seemingly bad situation. The gun being aimed just feels a bit much for me, personally. I don't know what you'd think about it though. Maybe it's whatever. Edit: She sorta moves the gun forward, but doesn't aim it directly in Ellie's face like she does in the Remake. Again, it's a small detail, but I think it's one worth discussing since it shows how in control Tess is at all times.
I feel really vindicated rn in the sense that I have always found the way TLOU approaches violence and morality to be frustrating, so thank you for articulating it so perfectly :)
Lmao “I’m showing clips here because if I misquote it, you guys will tear me apart” 20mins later, categorically eviscerating Part 2, the TV series and Druckmann. Also I completely agree with everything you said.
It’s interesting, what you had to say around 46:50 concerning Texas and it being interesting that Joel doesn’t seem to have problematic things to say. I’ve lived my whole life in Texas, and while I’m not surprised of the view the rest of the world seems to have of it, you’d be surprised as to how many people there actually are (and that I’ve encountered over the last 30 years) of all ages that don’t seem to have problematic views. No racism and such. Texas is enormous, and it’s like a country itself in its own right. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve known a LOT of bigots, and the grander opinion of the state is justified. Still, I feel it necessary to point out how many good people are here that aren’t hateful, and that’s even in the rural areas, where I grew up. Austin especially is considered more “liberal” by people in other parts of the state.
This video essay is brilliantly written. Not that you made any groundbreaking points but very articulate and entertaining. Found you from the TLoU2 vid so I was hyped to watch this
@@MertKayKayactually you made one stand out point about Joel’s politics being palatable for a modern audience making him likable. Despite being a hardened murderer, one off color political opinion could have tanked his likability. Very good point
In most games, we apply ourselves to the role of the character. Joel's character flips that by having control of him, not in order to guide him but for the game to show us Joel's journey, play out in front of us.
Post in two parts. Brilliant writeup, you have a lot of great points about the story and it's nice to see a lot of things get mentioned that other people skip over (e.g the dubious consent, and the fireflies being just as objectionable as any other enemy human group in the story) It's really interesting that the majority of the events of the game place Joel in positions where what he's doing isn't actually wrong or considered evil, despite previous actions that are alluded to. Most of the time, you are fighting for survival against infected or against people who can't be negotiated with, whose immediate reaction is to attack Joel and Ellie. I agree that from the events in the game and the story within, it's really difficult to actually say Joel was wrong to save Ellie. Have a few things to say, mostly about the fireflies and the situation in the hospital. This is a long post so please bear with me. Joel's motivations are obviously deeply personal and I do think that in the situation where he is convinced that the surgery will work and they can actually create a vaccine from it, or if it was a reasonable chance to do so, he would probably still do exactly what he did. But it does actually go futher than that, because it does matter whether a treatment derived from Ellie would work, and more importantly, if Joel thinks it would work. Many people skip over this because they believe it's reasonable to assume it was supposed to be a decision Joel was making, but I don't think that's supported with the information you're provided by the game. I'll go into that after speaking about the fireflies. Joel is deeply biased toward the fireflies. He hates them because Tommy left him for them. He is dismissive toward them, and believes their actions are useless. As Joel, the player is presented with this perception of the fireflies and additionally supplied with a gamut of evidence that they are not the heroes of the story, and they simply aren't good at what they do. I feel like a lot of people skip over this because FEDRA is clearly from the start of the game associated with any "evil empire" you see in media, and since the fireflies are supposed to be an opposition group to them, they'll be the plucky, heroic group that will save the day. But they're just not and the game is all too willing to show us this. First of all with their attacks in Boston on civilians and fighting in the streets. We're never given any context for this, so it's impossible for the player to know what's going on, but we do find out later that they are getting brutulised by FEDRA, both in the Boston QZ and their out of town team which is eliminated without Marlene even knowing. (As a sidenote, what were they even thinking starting a bombing campaign while trying to get Ellie out of the QZ? They initiated a crackdown on themselves which got most of them killed and ruined their own plans. They're not clever). The fireflies are ambitious, amateurish, make rushed, desperate decisions, and ultimately manage to fail at what they're trying to do. All of that really doesn't help our opinion of them, or their competence as an organisation. And this theme continues through the game, with their next reference being in Pittsburg, where it's revealed it was them who managed to destabilise the Pittsburg QZ... only for it to spiral out of control into a powerful, organised hunter group, resulting in the death or expulsion of any remaining civilians and the deaths of countless more. There's a theme developing here. They wanted to control the former Pittsburg QZ and, quoting from what the hunters said when they killed off the fireflies in Pittsburg, spread the revolution. Their ambition and blundering caused another failure. We next encounter much more information on them in Colorado, where we learn more about them and again, about their failures. They lose Colorado and are forced to leave. They have supply issues and can't even move all of their equipment. They fail at experiments for decades. One of their own remaining doctors actually manages to get himself killed by releasing infected monkeys which promptly bite him (not exactly giving us a positive opinion of their medical quality) but something else that isn't generally talked about is that he released infected monkeys which are now a new way for the fungus to spread, in a vector that the majority of humans aren't aware of. It's not only stupid because of how he died, but it's also just one more indication of their inadequacy in both the skills of their people and as an organisation. The fireflies are also not good people by any stretch. They actively terrorise and bomb QZs, causing death and misery to civilian populations dependent on FEDRA. If their goal was to be a viable alternative, where are the jackson style settlements, where is the actual progress? Their actions at the end of the game in their treatment of Joel and Ellie just reveals to us that despite their claims and moralising, they really are no better than the groups they assert they're better than, like FEDRA. Marlene also pushes several buttons with her rather petulant behaviour, claiming that she is the one truly suffering from the decision to kill Ellie when we know from the context of the story that she prioritised herself and her goal over Ellie at every point, from birth to the decision to kill her. Another sidenote here on the fireflies is if their real goal was saving the human race by treatment at any cost, they wouldn't have banked on a goal of getting a girl across 2400 miles on a very dangerous journey. It's in every major group's best interests for a cure to exist. The fact that they entirely disregarded any of them in favour of doing it alone is deeply suspicious, because there really is no reason for them to be the sole controllers of a treatment if the goal is the betterment of mankind. It's clear that they stand to gain and want to do so. Well, it's that or just another ambitious but rubbish plan, typical of fireflies. Toss-up, really.
2nd part. Why is all of this about the fireflies important? Because it matters deeply to the context of the scenes in the hospital. Joel has been along with us this entire time in this journey, already had very negative views toward them as an organisation, and the information we receive since overwhelmingly points negatively toward them. Joel, and by extension, the player, has no reason to trust their word, on anything. So, bearing all of this in mind, let's think back to Joel's opinions on a treatment. We see from the very start he doesn't. He's dismissive, and the only reason he ever sets out on the journey is his personal relationship with Tess, and then later his relationship with Ellie. At no point does he care about a treatment or view it as a realistic possibility, and a few minutes after arriving in Salt Lake he proposes simply leaving. So, beyond all the other things in the story (dubious consent, given Ellie's age, trauma, and lack of a guardian to adequately represent her, fireflies mistreatment, etc) there is another real problem for the argument against Joel, which is the idea that Joel was sacrificing a treatment. He doesn't believe one is possible, and never did, and nothing the fireflies said or did would have convinced him otherwise, not that they really tried. You can also tack on that they've been there less than a day - a few hours at most - and Joel, while not being a doctor, is still someone who was brought up in a country with normalised and routine medical procedures. Many of the characters in the game are younger, but Joel is old enough to have been a adult for over a decade by the time of the infection and realise the strangeness of moving to a deadly procedure in a few hours. It's one more on the tally of ambitious, rushed, desperate decisionmaking of a group that has been shown to fail every single one so far. Their only success story in the entire game is a direct result of Joel, not the fireflies. So now the context of Joel being told about the surgery, is "you're going to kill Ellie for something that will never work, is a pipe-dream, is a fantasy" it completely changes the scenario even further in Joel's favour. Joel even gets justified by this instantly after, because we get told two things: One, that the move from receiving Joel and Ellie to surgery was literally in the span of a few hours, because of the dates on the files we find, and also that the doctor outright states that the cause of Ellie's immunity is unknown after he has done several tests on her, before going into a self-congratulatory talk about how he's going to save the world. This is the last note we see from the doctor about the situation. On a different topic, now, sacrificing a treatment is also not actually the doom of humanity like the fireflies or anyone else suggest it is. Any sort of treatment quite clearly isn't required for human survival, or the future, which is made plainly obvious by the fact that people, in large numbers, are still alive and surviving, and additionally, from what Marlene says in the final cutscenes: Torn apart by infected, or murdered by raiders. There would still be plenty of danger in this world if no one could get infected ever again, even if that was even possible. A treatment won't save the world, and never could by itself. When we meet Tommy in fall, we learn that Tommy abandoned the fireflies, and is actually doing well. Jackson is critical to this point, and the reason is because it is clear evidence that it's not FEDRA or the Fireflies who have the only chance of creating a better world for people to live in, and neither do you actually require a treatment to do so. Humanity is not doomed because of a lack of access to a treatment. It just needs to work on saving itself. Arguably, it's the fireflies and FEDRA's insistence on trying to maintain or restore the past that are holding people back from actually thriving. Living away from agricultural areas, in crumbling cities, infested by infected simply isn't a good idea, and there are vast swathes of unoccupied land to use instead. On the ending of the game, it left a really sour note to me, and I was disappointed in the final scenes of the game for a fairly simple reason. When you consider all of the reasons for why saving Ellie is the right thing to do, Joel shouldn't have and didn't need to lie about the situation. Her death would probably have been meaningless, and they were morally wrong to do so regardless. It's a real plot problem, and I think it's against his character to do so, when at all other points, he has been either brutally honest with Ellie and unwilling to lie to spare feelings. It's a real plot problem, and could have only been done as poor writing or setting up contrived plot matters for a sequel, which of course, it did.
I’m with you girl. I spent all last week, not just wearing 2 hoodies, but also 2 pairs of bottoms. The only clothing recommendation I would ever consider making is these super warm leggings I got from primark. They were about £7 and look like regular black leggings but have the softest thickest fur on the inside. I know this sounds like it could be horrible but it’s super soft and comfortable, even after a bunch of washes. Seriously, if you live in the UK and have a cold house I can’t recommend enough. I’m going back for more on Friday. I was walking my dog in them at 3am in the snow (she’s old and mental) And you can wear them under something else if you’re super nesh. They were by the tills. Seriously.
i like that they went deeper into bills character and his relationship with frank in the show. however , they used all of bills time showing their relationship and not who he is aside from that
Y'know guys, I'm starting to think that like...killing the sole specimen immune to a world-ending disease-a young specimen, who still has years to physically develop- to try and develop a theoretical instant-cure panacea might be a little short-sighted? I dunno, I'm no rocket scientist ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I wanted to point something else, yes having a cure that makes people "uninfectable" (i know this is not the case medical viewpoint but stick with me ), the problem of the world is different, the infected is still out there, cold winters, lack of supplies, lack of order, FEDRA and Firefly war ( which is absurd btw ), looters and hunters ( the c@nn1bals included ), lack of medical supplies ( imagine mass producing a cure when you cant even make basic antiobiotics but this is for later ), the thing im trying to say, at remake I read almost every note, I know why the raiders at mid game are the way they are ( there are notes that rebellion caused them to go wild and start c@nnibal1sm and raiding ), I know fireflies trying to bring democracy while people are starving ( hardly have access to basic needs and they are being dillusional ), the magical cure will not save the world, yes knowing getting bited wont be end of you is nice, this still doesnt change the fact that infected can still k***l u, you can di€ from any thing i said before, I think that fireflies and others should focused on unity,order,security of their societies, before they had the fantasy of a cure, I have zero faith at fireflies, they are soo dillusional with their war that they will eventually use "cure" as a political tool to take down FEDRA and nothing else, even if they somehow make this cure and distribute it magicly none of the problems will ever go...
Fun fact: Joel had a daughter before meeting Ellie. This was implied at the start of the game.
This one might be my favourite
Fun fact: It is implied that some enemies in the game are actually zombies
Fun fact. Ellie might be a lesbian. This is implied when she makes out with a lesbian
At 1:00:48 I finally understood this comment.
The clues are subtle, but they're there.
Fun fact you might have missed: Bill is not only a dark reflection of Joel's standoffishness, Bill is also short for "William"
Oh my god I was sitting here trying to make the connection when I realised I've been bamboozled again
@@MertKayKayi thought they were trying to imply a meaning between bill and ellie’s last name and then i realized it’s just game rant 😭
Billiam*
😂😂😂😂
And Dick is another name for Richard. I’ve never understood why.
Yours is the first video essay I’ve seen mention her age as a factor to her consent, which I appreciate. People never seem to take into consideration that even if she had been asked, she wouldn’t have been in a place to properly consent to such a drastic measure
On top of that, she’s also ‘under duress’. Even if she could consent, she’s arguably being made to make a decision while under psychological stress that almost coerces her into the decision. Should she be in her 20s, she has more autonomy and critical thinking capacity for making that decision, but still under the influence of the suffocating circumstances she finds herself living in.
Its the apocalypse rules & laws are no longer in effect. Thats also stupid af. If someone wants to die in a world where u could very easily be grabbed up & made a slave, raped for years, cannibalized, or brutally ripped apart by infected or all of the above together! U have zero right to take away someones choice to die peacefully in this new world. Yall weird af.
I feel like in that universe though a lot of kids have to grow up and in general in that type of universe choosing to want to live or not shouldn’t be controversial because it is a hard terrible world and if someone doesn’t want to keep going that’s understandable, Ellie may be young but she and a lot of others her age are forced to understand heavy things like this. I get the age thing completely but I feel like you have to tie in the context of the universe (I haven’t watched the video yet just scrolling through comments lol)
@@mandywardrop7279 I disagree with this argument. Even if she's gone through a lot, she's still a child and still has less life experience than someone Joel or Marlene's age, and they're using that life experience against her.
@@AngelofGrace96"i disagree because I disagree"
Fun Fact: In TLOU2, you can jump. This is a reference to the "Mario" franchise.
YAHOO!!
SPLAHOOOOOO!
Omg that was funny! I’m stealing that.
this sounds like something Dunkey would say
@@Sm0k3turtfun fact: it is WAHHOOOOOOOO!
On the point about sparing NPCs, I'll note that during the firefly hospital section, I did actually manage to spare one NPC and the dude ran for dear life. It was quite shocking tbh because most times I wait for the NPCs to get back up and proceed to kick their heads in the second they raise any weapon at me ( I had a thing for justifying my kills in games back then ). Till today, My brother chalks it up to being a glitch but I honestly like to think the mechanic was probably accounted for.
I think that is a thing that can happen in The Last of Us. I remember playing the original ps3 game back in 2013, can't recall what level it was but it wasn't the finale, it was outside and during the day. An enemy begged for his life and when I lowered my gun he ran away and escaped. It was surprising because that sort of thing was very unexpected, especially back then. I was actually disappointed that mechanic didn't seem to return in part II.
@@katefrost8500 I frigging knew it, the problem now is knowing how to trigger it. I don't know if it happens because you consistently give people a chance or because a random variable in the games code that only rarely occurs.
From a practical scientific standpoint, killing Ellie is actually a very stupid thing to do. Given the nature of her immunity, it's not at all clear that you could synthesize a "vaccine" that would have the same effect. She's infected. Her body just doesn't respond to the fungus the same way. They have no real idea of why she works the way she works, and killing her would cut off their access to additional tissue and a study subject if their initial guess is wrong.
If the useful thing turned out to be in her blood, bone marrow, or living tissue -- they'd be putting a clock and a hard limit on their ability to use it for any purpose. It's bad ethics and it's bad science.
Me hijacking any TLOU discussion to suggest an anti fungal
On top of that, there is no logistic system to get the vaccine out to people in need, would the fireflys even supply to people who work with/support the military that they are actively attacking?
@@DonnieDaise Sure, I can't say 100% it wouldn't work, but it pretty nearly 100% wouldn't work. And there are less permanent and invasive methods that are (at least collectively) more likely to work that haven't even been attempted. So why on earth would you jump to the thing that prevents you from trying anything else?
It's just pragmatism. If you're filming a movie and you need to shoot a lot of scenes in a car, and in one of those scenes you blow the car up, you shoot that scene when you're sure you have all the other footage you're going to need.
@@MertKayKay YOU AREN'T WRONG THOUGH. Also there is currently *no* vaccine of any kind that is approved to fight or treat a fungal infection. So what are the odds that some scrappy underfunded randos in an old university hospital are going to figure it out on their first attempt? Also, one of the ONLY promising fungal vaccine candidates uses monoclonal antibodies, for which you absolutely do not need or WANT a dead human source.
If they'd managed to formulate a vaccine for ant cordiceps or monkey cordiceps using the same technique then perhaps this would be a legitimately balanced choice. But as it is, even if Joel hadn't cared about Ellie, he would have been right to get her out of there. The IRB never would have approved this mess.
The IRB would have been on Joel's side.
It would've been even worse if the fireflies had intended to breed Ellie to see if it was something genetically inheritable. That would've had higher success rate in terms of finding a vaccine since they'd have multiple subjects, assuming it was something genetic. But would've been extremely messed up.
Who's to say they wouldn't harvest her eggs and use multiple women to do so? 👀
Yeah, take some of her eggs and do ivf on numerous other women. Then, you dont need to wait 9 months per kid.
The issue is then that they may have to wait for the baby to mature to a similar age to Ellie before the immunity kicks in.
For that matter, Ellie might not even be genetically immune. It might just be the fungus that evolved to not degenerate the human mind. So, take some spores from her and infect some people first. There are so many steps to do before just killing her, even if we want to be pragmatic and kold hearted.
Emotionally, the ending hits hard. But with the introduction of the sequel were we are told that they 100% would be able to make a cure from sacrificing their only immune patient. It just doesn't make sense.
taking her eggs and dna would've been less cruel, but still an invasive procedure I believe
@@galaxychill9578 At least it would make way more sense than just jumping the gun straught to killing her when they had no idea if that would even help them out at all. at least give less lethal methods a go first just in case she needed to be alive for them to make a cure
I never ever even thought of this before, goodness that's dark
Therapist: the absolut unit MertKayKay doesn't exists, she can't hurt you
MerrKayKay with two jumpers:
I recorded the WHOLE THING and then watched the footage back and thought: Oh no.
@@MertKayKay Hey, we're here for the critical thought and entertainment, not the fashion! Although you might start a trend...
Personally, I think a big part of why I struggled with TLOU2 was because it came out during lockdown here in Australia and unlike the first game, where it felt like even though the world you are playing in is depressing and sad, you're working towards something good, something hopeful, in the second game you're working towards something bleak and exhausting, and the real world was already bleak and exhausting. It felt like a slog to get through. I left the game feeling like shit.
That's such a good point! It was a bleak game at a bleak time
Neil Druckmann for ScreenRant, "Things you might have missed in The Last of Us Part II"
1. Violence is bad, actually
2. Its kinda fun to play though, huh?
Spec Ops: The Line told a similar message. That's all good but my problem is not giving the player any other choice. You're forced to do the phosphorus scene in Spec Ops and TLoU 2 says that we killed all the doctors, and doesn't allow us to back away from the revenge plot. It feels very condescending when the game forces you down one track and says, "Look how bad you are" while not offering any alternatives
@@crimzonpegasus9714 I was okay with it, because, like BioShock, we’re along for the ride.
My interpretation of SO:TL was that it was a horror game with a military aesthetic, but apart from that, the game is about military shooters and how many parts of a conflict they have to cover up to make them palatable.
I was upset that Ellie didn’t kill Abby at the end of TLOU2 because it thwarted her arc and the tragedy set in motion. Ellie gave up everything. She shouldn’t have blinked
@@crimzonpegasus9714 Spec Ops: The Line, it does force you to bomb civilians with white phosphorus. You can even figure out the twist before you pull the trigger. However the story accounts for this, Captain Walker tells Lugo and Adams, before they set up the mortar to launch the phosphorus that they "have no other option," once confronted with the horrific aftermath of his actions he denies responsibility. Telling his operatives that Konrad did this, that Konrad was going to pay for what Konrad had done. (Side Note: During development, writers did consider choice within the game. You would have been able to leave at the first signs of trouble when entering Dubai and able to fight your way through the encampment with guns instead of chemical weapons, however this was cut as it was too easy to just choose the "good" option.)
To criticize the lack of choice in Spec Ops: The Line is to be in the same headspace as Captain Walker. This is gonna piss a lot of people off and understandably so, I have my gripes with the narrative but I do think that in the story was executed perfectly. The open hostility to the player and general misanthropic nature perfectly complimented the suitably dark story.
And it also did it, without caving in Walker's surrogate dad's skull with a golf club and not have him track down Konrad from Angola to Dubai just to forgive him after he destroys the Damned 33rd.
Almost as if the game isn't actually trying to make YOU feel bad for it, and instead feel bad for the character you play as and their victims. @@crimzonpegasus9714
I'll quote one other UA-camr, who also talked about Fireflies' morality: "You're okay with playing Unit 731, but disrespecting someone's sexuality is out of the question for you?!"
To be fair to the show, their version of Joel is much less of a closed off prick than game Joel. I think Bill's character in the show was changed in a way that made sense and that pushed Joel to make the decision to save Ellie in the end instead of being a dark reflection of Joel. I think that's a pretty neat way to change Bill's story and still give him an important role in Joel's development as a character.
I think because of the character development we see when playing along side bill in the game, it would be hard to translate that gameplay into something interesting to watch on screen. I like the tv adaptation because it felt natural. It felt like they had played the game and wanted to do it justice. Bill was a hard dude who lost the only person he ever slightly gave a shit about, but the show adds value to the relationship we see in the game. I like that. Leaves less ambiguity about their relationship than in the game.
That episode is also one of the best episodes of television I've ever seen so that def helps lol
I cried like a little girl when that episode ended. How dare they warm my cold dead heart like that. 😭
Also, while in the show they do both die, it feels a lot less "burry you gays"y then in the game. you get to see a good decade + of their relationship, and while the ending of it is bittersweet af, its not all that tragic as most "burry you gays" moments, its two old dudes at the end of their lives going out together how they want to go out, enveloped in the love they have for each other, in a world where thats a very, very rare occurrence.
Plus it still emphasizes how importance of letting folks in and how rewarding that can be, just from a different angle, Bill literally lets Frank into his home and heart, and you see that lead to the closest thing that world has to a dream life and a happy ending, and its gods damed gorgeous to boot.
Idk I really loved what the show did with it.
Also just to add with show Bill. We see that you can still have yourself a happy ending despite the world being destroyed, and it might be the only happy ending we’ll ever see in TLOU as a whole
Fun Fact: The player forgiving Joel for all his misdeeds due to valuing his virtues is a direct mirror of Mert's audience forgiving Mert for not wanting Bill and Frank to be happy.
Thank you Wynne
What or who the f is a “Mert”?
I think Tess was definitely referencing at least partly the romantic tension between her and Joel. The two were very flirty, and while that is totally fine among BFFs, I always saw the two as having a romantic tension neither wanted to really discuss or commit to.
Some people believe theyve slept together and that they denied any romantic feelings and it fits joels persona admittedly
I had to put my phone down after you showed the Ellie killing whatever that stupid rapist's name was and Joel calling her baby girl. Like what. How am I supposed to go on after that?? It gets me every time
I cry like a baby
Ugh it makes me ugly cry every time
Some of your videos have genuinely changed the way i view many things. Cant wait to have my view of TLOS shattered and rebuilt
I haven't even played the game but the show fucked me up and I can't wait to think new thoughts about it
Damn that's high praise, thank you!
@@MertKayKayNo like seriously. I have a completely different way of thinking about James Sunderland now. Thank you
The relentless roasting of sites like ScreenRant's incredibly keen and thought-provoking game journalism was just a lovely sprinkling on top of this delicious video-essay sundae :)
After every jab, I thought, "no way is that going to work again", and then it would lmao
I once watched a video essay (can't find it again) that made the point mainstream Hollywood movies can't have a truly grey protagonist or actual moral question. It kinda explains The Last of Us’ ending.
30 seconds into the second game, Ellie starts screaming “I’ll kill you”, and I figured out the ending right there.
if nothing else, i think its very telling how so many GamersTM conflated a "protagonist" with a "hero" and just can't cope with it. Like, is media literacy really this low? The hysteria over what happened to Joel couldn't have been more 'bro do you even nuance?'
Which is made worse by the fact that TLOU/2 isn't even that deep. Its pretty basic though dramatic, stuff.
Thing is they succeeded in making people care about them then proceeded to undermine that. It’s a case of story retardation.
@Satya Hahaha! You see it a lot in Shonen anime especially, where the protagonist -> the Chosen One, and their actions are always morally just. It's why people have such an issue with Eren Jaeger being criticised (for example).
@@MertKayKay shoutout to FDSignifiers videos and his beef with Eren and his 'fans'
@@shenotski Caring about a character can't be undermined. If you care, you care. Just because you don't like what happened to them doesn't mean you stop caring, and that you're upset about what happened to the character so much, rather proves the games did a good job.
Just because you can't move on, doesn't mean you get to say it was poor writing. Writers are under no obligation to give you exactly what you want. Such is life. And indeed letting go and moving on is rather the point of TLOU2. Let Joel go :P he wasn't a hero, or a good guy and liked him though many did, acceptance is your only option.
I do not like TLOU, at all. I do very much like this 2 hour video essay on TLOU though. Good work Mert.
It’s kinda funny to consider how many overlaps there are between Joel and Kratos, as men who damn their worlds in the face of loss. I find it kinda interesting how that series is both a lot less afraid to condemn its protagonist directly, but also has him grapple with the responsibility of his actions and work towards a form of redemption. Makes you wonder what TLOU2 would have looked like if they weren’t afraid to actually take a stance on Joel’s actions.
29:52
This actually isn't Ellies first kill!
Her first kill was an infected woman, and her second kill was her infected best friend :)
Though, in TLOU2, she does talk about this (the guy in the hotel) as her first kill.
I guess it's her first /human/ kill. I know it's debatable but maybe it felt like actually taking a life, as opposed to putting something down
it’s never stated whether or not she killed riley, as far i know.
I feel like killing a human is much different to an infected. Infected are basically doomed to a life of torment and eventually death anyways
I have a very personal view of TLOU2. I mostly ignore Neil's whole deal cause I find him to be infuriating but I did find Ellie's journey through revenge an interesting character analysis, like I think that going through the journey is less about "violence bad" but more about Ellie learning about what made Joel like that. Like I personally see it as a journey through her loss and through the trauma of seeing someone you love killed and the hopelessness of not being able to do any about it. I also find that making Ellie just as morally grey as Joel was to be an interesting deal, like someone who we love can also do deeply violent and cruel things. I dont know, maybe its a bit of bias on my end, I actually do like Abby and Lev, even if their main plot is grossly done (lev's mostly)
Damn Tardis, that's a reading I never considered. Really well framed. Thanks for sharing
I wanted to write a comment about my love for TLOU2 but you did it a lot better than I ever could, I too really enjoy the story from BOTH perspectives which is very different from most people, I grew to care for Abby and understand her struggles as well, the game makes it almost impossible to love Ellie wholeheartedly anymore because of how many chances she gets to walk away and live her life... she just can't do it till it's too late and it's frustratingly heartbreaking 😭 TLOU2 is my favourite game ever made personally, I can understand why people don't like it though even if it hurts my soul 🥲💀
This is exactly how I read TLoU2 as well. I played it in the months after dealing with my grandfather’s death and the whole thing felt like it was about dealing with the anger of grief.
I thought I saw the isreal/palestine parallels in LoU 2, thanks for confirming that I wasn’t overthinking it lol.
Very funny that people continue to conspicuously ignore that TLoU2 was co-written by someone, her name is Halley Gross and she talked at length about it in the Naughty Dog documentary about the making of the game.
Which is ironic.
Part 1 had one writer. Of course Bruce S. was greatly involved in the making of the story, but it had one credited writer.
Part 2 not only had even more directors but it also had two writers.
I feel people lie and say Druckmenn went “solo” so they can pretend it was all his misguided ideas and not a collaborate effort by a team.
@@Indigo_1001 More so Druckman has taken over the company so her being the co-writer is his decision along with stealing Uncharted 4 from Amy Hennig.
@@shenotskiwhich highlights the themes of part 2 people ignore what they want if it doesnt fit their narrative...
An Easter Egg you missed is that the Cordyceps Virus isn’t a virus at all, but actually a fungal infection
The hardest easteregg I found while playing TLoU that not a single gamerrant list has ever pointed out is that the game is on. It is so difficult to actually notice this little detail while playing the game yet it stares at us during the whole campaign and even more! I've never seen such details in any other video games I've played
It’s actually a reference to Sherlock Holmes. One of the devs was clever enough to tell us that the “The game is a foot” AKA the game is both on & literally a foot also.
Babe wake up a new MertKay essay on something that lets me see a new perspective on stuff I already love to see if I can love it more and/or see if I can become more critical on the stuff I enjoy while also noticing stuff I haven't thought before just dropped (and just in time to be BG noise for doing art for a final)
I feel like for a lot of players, the final segment of TLOU is the closest they get to experience following a truly grey character they actually relate to, which is why their first instinct is to either disown the character to create separation with the self, writing Joel off as fully evil in his actions, or to somehow rob the situation of its complexities to make it a justified choice.
Interestingly enough, something similar happened with this new indie darling: Mouthwashing. Though I don't want to go into detail and risk spoiling it for people who haven't played it.
I haven’t even played this game and I’m tearing up at Ellie giving Joel the photo…
omg I sob THE WHOLE WAY THROUGH THIS GAME
@@MertKayKaygruff traumatized man finds self actualization through parenting a snarky teenage girl. The Witcher and TLOU know exactly what the people need
Free Palestine.
I never expected this to touch on Druckmann's writing and deeper involvement with the stories, thank you Mert
Bill's episode in the show was my favorite which I think is quite telling, as it was essentially a stand-alone story almost completely detached from the main plot, and not long after I lost interests in the show itself lmao
like I get that Bill is much better utilized in the game, it's what he was made to be, but I think I just like that type of story that his episode in the show was, alot better than the story the show or even this game is telling.
it's just a matter of personal preference rly
but yeah being given a taste of something I like better and knowing it wouldn't appear again in the show, it kinda turned me off the whole thing :/
The actors did a fine job overall in the whole show but episode three definitely stole the show which is Bill‘s episode iirc, but the thing is that the original voice actors and character models. Did Bill way better…. It is its own thing :p makes you wish that they incorporated that version & more storytelling when it comes Bill in the remake.. since that version I think beats the original bill. Not that it was bad. Just not much character development, since he was more of a show don’t tell short story.
It is one change I really wish was actually put into the original.
But idk if it would mess up the pacing of the game to add chapters of Tess & Joel interact with Bill & witness his life. Or maybe take too long? Man. I do not envy the people who have to make those decisions of what to cut out or change.
It’s been a while since I’ve finished last of us pt1 again and after watching not even the first 20 minutes of this video, it’s totally helped me come to terms with why the TLOU2 felt contrived. So much of the 2nd game is calling in Joel’s choice into question - with a lot of the conversation being around joel robbing Ellie of her autonomy. Yet, the firefly’s did the exact same thing. Joel and Ellie never got to talk about it beforehand, which I would have argued made it easier to question Joel’s decision at the end. Whereas the firefly’s never really gave us a reason to believe in them; as all we’ve seen was them being incompetent, beating joel whilst he was performing CPR, anesthetizing ellie against her consent, treating Joel at gun point to leave whilst talking down to him, etc. The world also didn’t do a great job of showing us that it’s worth saving. We see cruelty and ruthlessness at every corner of the games world, and there’s no indication that human society would ever be able to return to what it once was, cure or no cure.
Great stuff, love the work you do
The cutoff before you went on a well deserved rant over TLOU2 was pure comedic gold
2 things I noticed as well: at the beginning of the game, he is more hesitant to shoot jimmy and tries warning him a couple times instead of shooting randomly. Also, when henry is pointing the gun at joel, he actually looks like hes afraid to lose his life (in a sense losing his purpose- protecting ellie)
I also agree about bill being a good boy. Especially at the end when he has the gas siphon ready for us even though we didn’t ask for it. He thought about what we would need to survive even as he made jokes about how we’re doomed. His actions show how he really feels
Neil's comment is similar to Ridley's answer regarding Blade Runner. BR's biggest "mystery" is "Is Rick Deckard a Replicant?" Is he able to track them down so efficiently because he is a replicant? Ridley Scott dropping out of nowhere that "Rick Deckard is a Replicant" hurts the movie more than anything. The question mattered, not the answer; the lack of an answer was important to invite people to think.
Fun Fact: Ellie from The Last Of Us Part 2 is none other than Ellie from The Last Of Us Part 1 but older!
I really like how detailed and thorough this video is! And I also love how you addressed the Israel/WLF/Palestine/Seraphites issue, Neil adding "facts" to the game OUTSIDE of the game, and Bruce's strained relationship with the company. I think these points are rarely discussed in other video essays.
I agree with most, if not all, your points. The only thing I'm not 100% on board with is Joel being "bad" mainly bc "bad" seems to be quite subjective to everyone at this point in time. He CAN be an asshole and he IS an asshole from time to time but I wouldn't categorize him as a bad person especially when we ALL have been assholes at some point in time due to certain circumstances. The mere fact that he's capable of genuine self-reflection, realizing his mistakes, and making amends w people makes me believe that he's not "bad".
Very true re: Joel being "bad" and what that means, especially in our context versus the context of the game! Good point.
I have been arguing since my very first playthrough of TLOU that the vaccine matters exponentially less than the fact that this story is about the kind of love that you would burn the world down to save. I think TLOU2 was trying to convey that in a revenge story, as well, but failed to execute the same level of careful story-telling that paints the player's actions as a necessity. Pair that with expecting players to get invested in the growth of a character who starts the game doing something unforgivable, and well-fleshed our characters behaving inconsistently with what we know about them, and you get a very flawed game that is difficult to enjoy.
One of the most unbiased and level minded analysis of media I have encountered. As always, a real pleasure following along your chain of thought.
Thank you!
A two hour mert video essay is just what I needed to have on while I sew today. I’ve truly been blessed
Niel's "confirmations" of Ellie's surgery might be one of the most frustrating things I've ever seen a writer do, alongside J.K. Rowling and her Twitter ramblings on Harry Potter. It's completely unnecessary and moreover completely destroys the entire point the game was trying to get across and if I was part of the writing staff for the first game alongside him, I'd be absolutely PISSED that he said that. Nah, fuck that, I'd honestly be petty enough to write my own Tweet to completely rebutt his statement, saying that's his opinion and the reality is that it's left up to player interpretation, because THAT'S THE POINT.
(Not to mention the fact that what the Fireflies were even trying to do was catagorically short-sighted at best and fucking stupid at worst. In all realms of Science, their "plan" was incredibly fucking risky, needlessly so I might add and they could've ended up dooming the one chance they actually have BY killing Ellie in the process. Niel "confirming" what he did completely removes all of that nuance as well and just makes the Fireflies seem like completely just, benevolent geniuses, which even FURTHER removes them from any moral ambiguity they could've previously had in the player's minds and hilariously, makes the treatment of Joel at the hospital scene when he wakes up seem even more out of place than it already was.)
I have so many gripes with that whole "confirmation", if it wasn't glaringly obvious and so I thank you so much for both bringing it up and voicing why it's so fucking stupid to even attempt to do as such, because it's been rent free in my head ever since I seen it. Just so stupid!
On another note: this video was brilliant and I really love your analysis here and your thoughts on how the hospital section was handled. As someone who played TLoU on release, back on the PS3 and oncemore when the PS4 was released, my memory was a bit foggy on the exact framing of how everything plays out - it's been a while. Your guide through the scenarios in the game/explainations were (as always) clear and consise and put me right back behind the controller in my head; a great refresher! I'm also absolutely convinced you're spot on about the ending. I remember always being conflicted and kinda being all straight faced on subsequent content, not really disliking or greatly liking it either, never feeling too strongly one way or another, but I realise a lot of that now is because I've been subconsciously hung up on how the last section of the first game never REALLY sat right with me and never really understanding why. Like, emotionally, it's there, but something always itched away at my brain somewhere and I think this video not only scratched said itch, but completely removed it.
*This is an extremely long-winded way of saying this was (another) fucking solid video Mert! Glad I stayed up until 6am, insomnia riddled to watch every second of it! Look forward to the next one as always! Who knows? Maybe Niel being put on blast again for his grave writer's sin will allow me to sleep soundly!*
I disagree. It was pretty obvious to me when I played the game, that by the way Marlene announced the vaccine to Joel, it was pretty much confirmed that it could be done. I couldn't care less about how realistic or feasible a cure would be in this scenario, nothing about this world is realistic anyway. For all practical purposes, the fireflies figured out a way to develop a vaccine, and they were so confident about it that they were willing to kill Ellie. This is why Joel's response to Marlene isn't "you can't know for sure if it will work" or "there has to be some other way". He simply says "find someone else". He accepts the situation for what it is and realises the sacrifice he's willing to make. There wasn't supposed to be any ambiguity or interpretation about that, the ambiguity lies in the morality of Joel's character and his decision. Since a lot of people were getting caught up in hypotheticals that the writers never intended, Neil's confirmation makes sense to me. The question was never about "Would a vaccine even be possible?", it was "Would you have done what Joel did?".
Also, while in the ending of the first game Joel can be seen as the one being selfish, the second game clearly shows that the fireflies' intentions for the cure were never really about their desire to save humanity, but for a desire to justify their cruel and horrific actions. Jerry, the surgeon who was about to save humanity, was driven by the same selfish motivations that Joel was. While trying to convince Marlene, he completely dehumanises Ellie, and shows the sunk cost fallacy that he's consumed by. "All of our sacrifices, all the horrific... All of that is justified with this one act."
Saying TLOU2's moral was "violence is bad" is like saying TLOU's moral was "FAMILY".
Vin Diesel would love TLOU
@@MertKayKay Can't argue with that.
What a coincidence you put out this video literally like a day after I randomly decided to replay it. The game's story and characters have really stuck with me ever since I watched a playthrough of it back when it came out (I didn't have a PS3, but also I was way too young to be playing a game like that at the time anyway). Still an all-time favorite of mine to this day.
I watched a playthrough too! I was an xbox/Nintendo kid so assumed I'd never get to play it. I'm glad we both got the chance to give this game a proper whirl because it is fantastic
So I didn't play the last of us at release, but for some reason I misremembered a synopsis of the plot and I kept thinking that the ending was that Ellie killed Joel after what he did to the fireflies. So for a while I was really confuse why people were so pissed that he died in part 2.
Redem no more cheese before bed
Maybe you were confused by the ending of the first season of Walking Dead?
@@williamtimonen6814 That might be an explanation, but I'm pretty sure look into Telltale Walking dead way later
.
It's surprisingly sparse and only noticable when you consider the game as a metatextual reference and deeplore examined through a post-modern, post-media, post-marxist lense but my Gamerants detail you may have missed is this game is actually a take on the obscure horror subgenre of "zombie apocalypses."
Haha you had me in the first line, I thought I was about to get absolutely schooled
The remaster of Ellie is such a bummer. They had to make her more similar to the Ellie of TLOU2, but that way they kind of removed the original Ellie, if that makes sense.
Yeah, for me it the opposite Effect where original Ellie looks like an anime huge eye puppy lol. It’s the other character that I sometimes prefer the old. Something about Joel’s new facial structure seems off. Like they completely changed his eye features & shape. Tess’ eyes also used to be massive and they could’ve made them just a teeny bit smaller but they decided to pretty much make her some older different woman lol. But hey, I’m the end, the remake looks insanely great if it is your first view of them it works just the same.
One thing the show did that I'm sure was on purpose is that they made it so that people are hunting Henry because he betrayed them for a cure which he got by ratting out their leader to the fireflies. Thus showing us that the fireflies don't necessarily use what they've got to help people, they often use their resources as bargaining chips to gain more power.
Great video essay. About the FF, I subscribe to the belief that you have to assume they would have been successful, for TLOU1 and TLOU2 to work. That’s just IMO, but Joel expressly tells Tommy in TLOU2 opening that “and they were going to make a cure”. He doesn’t question their ability either. Just tells Marlene “Find someone ELSE”.
TLOU1 the original had grimey looking surgical suite. On TLOU2 and TLOU1R, it got retconned into a very clean and orderly place.
interesting you didnt like the live action bill. i can understand it, because he is not the same person as in the game. i personally like the episode. and there are 2 different versions for me where i can like both. i was more disappointed about the city. it was just few houses with traps outside the fence, but inside it was not like done. i would love to see a city with a lot of hidden traps between the alleys.
Back after finishing watching the whole video: I think the 2nd game wasn't about saying VIOLENCE IS BAD: in that world violence is NECESSARY. To protect yourself, the people you care about, your community. But the thing is how much is enough? How much is justified? I don't think the game wanted to give answers to these questions, but make us think about them... The other thing is we never usually get to play as a "bad person", and any bad thing we do is supposed to be justified...it was interesting to see the yeah, the people we love can hurt other people and make mistakes, and we can do that too... We can be the villain in someone else's life and not even question our actions because we think we are "right".
Game is not perfect in any way, shape or form but me, personally, thought that was something completely different than "violence is bad, ok?"
actually gasped with glee when i saw this video come up in my feed. after the brutal takedown of part 2, i never thought this video would come, and i am so glad you made it. at the same time, TLOU is my favorite game of all time, having irrecoverably altered my brain chemistry from watching Markiplier's playthrough at a young age. let's see if this video makes me get my moth tattoo lasered off.
Mertkaykay casually carrying the last 2 hours of my shift on her back
TLOU and Walking Dead Season 1 were how far you'd be willing to go to save your child.
TLOU2 was a reaction and reflection on how these actions cause ripples and repeat cycles that even the best people struggle to break.
Also want to add because I feel like the first game also hammers home the idea that the fireflies are incompetent, the group is no where to be found UNTIL you get to their main base of operation. There was no guarantee they would even get a cure, I feel like if they really wanted to play with this idea of Joel "dooming the world" they shouldn't have written the group to be so incompetent that the game is literally a year of just trying to find them and always finding that they already left or died. It would've made actually more sense for the tyrannical government that existed to be doing something like this, then it would actually be morally grey I feel. A revolution faction at the end of their ropes by the beginning of the game and hanging by a string by the end of it, probably shouldn't be the anchor for creating a vaccine, it only felt like they were going through with it because they're desperate, hence why they treat Joel the way they do.
EDIT: I feel like in the nicest way possible, you said Neil Druckmann is not a good writer and I appreciate that, and completely agree. He needs someone else to say no or his ideas just get out of hand. TLOU 2 suffers so much on it's pacing because of his writing. Not only as a story but even as a game I would argue.
Very well put.
I have historically been the biggest TLOU2 defender. I have been in the TRENCHES defending that game, but I have to admit, a huge portion of it was because of the "anti-sjw/anti-woke" backlash it received. Even to this day I'm still almost reactionarily defensive of the game, but your video has opened my eyes some to a lot of its major flaws.
Totally! It was so annoying to see the game brigaded by alt right weirdos. I love how TLOU2 plays but yeah I didn't enjoy the story - and the cultural war waged over it prevented any constructive discussion! Thanks for watching
That comment is spot on. I had a lot to criticize about that game, but I always had to distance my self from alt right grifters in order to do so and it was incredibly frustrating.
Same. I actually hated the game but I had to hid that because I didn't want to be associated with the incels.
Geez. That’s stressful sounding. I don’t get why people waste a lot of time “defending” something over the internet. It doesn’t change much & it probably makes people who hate on it even more hateful of it & just is a big ball of people arguing pointlessly because in the end, it is what it is…
@Puppy_Puppington you'd think that but if you can reach even one person and make them THINK why they dislike it, instead of just hating it because it has women in it is worth it.
Fun Fact: at 1:24:25 its not a rusty pipe, its actually rebar, which is a structural element of concrete buildings that adds tensile strength.
My biggest gripe with TLOU, as it evolved in this transmedia franchise… is that it evolved at all. The simple fact that Ellie is infected makes it impossible for me to buy into the idea of a sequel where she can have a family and not infect another person through consensual/non-consensual relationship. It’s like carrying an Alien but not giving birth. Who knows if an embryo can spread through kissing.
As much as it is capable of giving fantastic character interactions, I no longer can buy in into the idea that their world can or needs to be saved. The intro is literally fantastic. For me, the game just went downhill and I played it 11 years ago on PS3. And my favorite moment was when Ellie gave the photo to Joel, if the player chooses to get it from Ellie… It’s a small moment, but it was effective!
I’ve not replayed it since.
I and my family have adored this game for years, with my siblings and i dressing up as ellie and some infected and my father dressing as joel for comiccon in 2014, and to the point my younger sibling named themself after a character in the second game. Despite being self proclaimed experts on the game, you have so so many insights that we maybe considered but never fully explored, and you have made me fall in love with this game all over again
1:02:35 "Bill's town, home of Bill" That's the dream right there, having a whole town named after you with you as the sole occupant.
Man, I can't really judge the people in TLOU just due to how shitty and bleak that world is. Like, Joel legit terrifies the shit out of me, so imagine how fucking hopeless I felt in the David/Ellie chapter.
I would have pulled a Henry almost immediately out of a sense of despair, I ain't built for this.
Of all the emotional moments in this game, the one that always makes me cry is when Sam tries to take that toy. I even teared up watching the scene in this video. The forced loss of innocence (is it a loss if he never was allowed to have it?) just gets to me like nothing else.
This was a great essay, I'd love to see more videogame analyses from you!
Bro i moved to Australia and u still manage to upload as I’m going to bed??
Where in Australia? :o
@MertKayKay you know the earth? Look underneath it
@@ahumanbeingfromtheearth1502 she was asking where IN australia, not where it is on the map
@@MertKayKay Perth! Figured I’d leave u suckers to ur freezing winter, apologies
Fun fact: Bill in the last of us is also Bill Williamson from RDR 2
He jumps universes
I think tess knows about sarah because she says 'i get it' after her justifying why they should keep going despite finding out she is infected after joel says "do i need to remind you what is out there"
Didnt realise how much I needed someone to fairly criticise TLOU2 and Druckmann until now honestly... TLOU2 sucked, but all discourse around was poisoned by the stupid "Urhm 🤓☝️ how can woman have muscle! Woman cut sandwich not limbs ☝️" crowd.
Going into TLOU2 I thought I'd love it as "revenge as cautionary tale" is one of my favourite story themes (ie, Medea's slaying of her kids) but the way it was presented in TLOU2 was so...weird?? It didnt feel anti revenge, it felt anti retaliation.
Finding out Neil's dogshit views on Palestine morbidly explains his "violence is always bad, even if its against someone who mercilessly victimised you" views exactly.
But, more relevant to the bulk of this video, despite The Last of Us being analysed to hell and back by everyone and their mom, I actually found this to be a unique analysis of it!! It didn't feel like it treaded old ground, It offered quite a few new takes on a game I've heard been dissected dozens of times.
It always shocks me how you're able to dissect media In ways that make me re-consider my, what I believed were steadfast views on it....Another Mertkaykay banger!! Screenrant could never.
Thanks so much nohetero 😭 I was very worried about retreading other analysis so I'm really glad you found this unique. As always thank you for watching
I am of the personal belief that the anger and hatred the game makes the player feel from the Fireflies is entirely believable. You said it yourself; the Fireflies are incredibly pretentious and have overly inflated egos. They truly believe they can restore humanity. Anyone with that kind of belief in themselves reeks of narcissism. The true nature of the Fireflies has been foreshadowed since the beginning of the game: starting from the explosion that forces Tess and Joel to reroute, to Joel implicitly stating that Tommy was only a Firefly for a few months, to David's whole character. The biggest clue we get is when we meet Tommy. It's clear with the introduction and subsequent expansion of Tommy's character that Tommy is a good guy. He also is someone with lofty ambitions. So why, pray tell, would Tommy voluntarily leave an organization that has a seemingly respectable goal (of saving humanity through a vaccine) and ambitious plans? It's because the Fireflies are not who they present themselves to be, just like David. The ending is the reveal of this, and each moment of Marlene and the guard patronizing Joel to them never preemptively asking Ellie for consent is the 'showing' not the 'telling' of their true nature. That's the entire theme that The Last Of Us presents: there are no good guys in this world. The game could've told us this explicitly, having Marlene do a villain speech. But instead, through the actions and the emotional connection we have tethered to Joel and Ellie, it's subtly revealed.
Speaking out my arse since I’m no dr., but why couldn’t they do a spinal tap or smth instead of jumping to “Igor bring me her brain!”?
the hidden detail that I noticed is that if you think about it, the story of the last of us could fit reasonably well into the zombie apocalypse genre! Also you can see giraffes at one point if you look close enough 🤯
Perfect timing, I've nearly finished my Mertkk binge
I always look forward to your videos, you have such an amazing way of looking at media,. whenever you post i know im about to be sat rewatching all your videos for at least a couple hours 😂
Got me crying in the club rn (read: smiling on my bed) Arium, thank you
Your videos are always so detailed and amazing, i am thankful for them, can’t wait to tackle this one!!
:'( omg thank you
I do think Joel told Tess. When they finally escape the guards and first get outside the walls. Joel has no hope about the endeavor, Tess looks at Ellie, looks at Joel, and says ‘I get it’ to me it felt like a deeper line than it first comes off as
Omg thank you for bringing up her age and the ability to consent during the surgery , there's often a reason why a guardian's permission is needed for important procedures in modern hospitals / medicine etc.
It feels so morally and ethically wrong for the doctors to be desperate enough to take in a 14 year old girl just to experiment and essentially dissect her for the very minor chance to find a cure . I think the seriously small chance of the Fireflies finding a cure in the first place pushes us even more onto Joel's side , the fact that the cure can't even be guaranteed makes Ellie's death feel not worth it .
wow. this was one of the best and well written video essays i’ve ever encountered on youtube. i love video essays but finding ones that actually offer analysis rather than a bad AI summary is like looking for a gold in a haystack and especially in a category as saturated as TLOU. your analysis of the difference of what they show and tell you as far as Joel and Ellie really gave me a better understand of why it’s so effective and I never knew anything about Druckman’s co-writer.
can’t wait to watch every video in this channel.
I got my UA-cam recap and it told me that after having watched 15 hours of your content this year, I'm in the top 2% of viewers of your channel. So, yes, there's 1% of people who've binged your greatness more than I have.
Also I'm only halfway through this video. There was one point in the video where you say nobody will ever have to go through this, and then I had a nightmare about just that. And let me tell you, it's devastating. I woke up and cried for 30 minutes straight.
Well I'm sorry to hear about the nightmare Squirrel :'( that said... Top 2%!! Woo!
@@MertKayKay No worries! It just goes to show how engaging your words are, that I can have a nightmare about a game I've never played, just from your analysis of it! ♥️ That's commendable, really!
Wow, I was not ready to have my view on this game and it's ending shaken up like this. The level of analysis here is the best I've seen in a video essay in a long while. I'll definitely have to check out your other videos.
Wow, thank you Gibby!
i feel the exact same way! after how much i’ve watched the game and analysis on it I didn’t think it was possible and yet here we are.
I cried while playing a few games: Journey, Night in the Woods, Silent Hill 2, Telltale 's The Walking Dead... But at the end of The Last of Us part 2, with the credits rolling and "Beyond Desolation" playing, I was bawling like a 2 year old... I had to drink a double whiskey, no ice, to settle the f down.... No other game traumatized me like that. I accept it is not perfect and the pacing is weird sometimes but when it does it right, which is most of the game, it's a steel punch to the guts..
Your videos are a joy to watch - always happy to see a new upload. Thanks.
My favorite Game Rant hidden detail is that UA-camr MertKayKay played the Last of Us.
sick headshots on those clips wow
I edited out all the times you whiffed because I didn't want them to think it was my footage, and I didn't want to get called a fake gamer :'(
I really enjoyed your analysis of TLOU. In general, I really enjoy when you do in depth analyses like these and I would definitely turn up for each of them.
I'm also pretty sure this is nowhere near the bottom of your analyses to do, but I would definitely love to see you do a "A Plague Tale" analysis. I'm pretty sure "A Plague Tale: Innocence" and "A Plague Tale: Requiem" contain my favorite depictions of sibling relationship and lasting trauma in a video game. However, I know these games are not that well known and would understand if it wasn't in the cards at all.
Thank you Kate!! I have always been curious about those games, maybe it's time to have a look
@MertKayKay I sure hope you like them! Hugo has to be the cutest video game kid I ever encountered.
Also, let's say these games were very unexpected coming from a studio who only did Microsoft flight simulators and licensed Disney/Pixar games.
God what a great video, you putted into words all the problems that i had with the end of part 1, i feel i weird longing for what could have been a more risky, explicit grey Joel, being what comes to be just a man taking some of the most difficult decisions that you can put someone through, pls keep bringing more content, you gained a fan
I watched yesterday during work, it made the day go by easier.
You are always an smart person to listen.
Aww thanks Jose!! Thanks as always
if you came away from last of us part II thinking the point of it was "violence/revenge is bad" then you entirely missed the point of the game
An actual fun tlou tidbit: when Joel gets emotional and starts tearing up, he turns away from who he’s talking to. We see this when he turns around talking to Ellie after Tess dies, and the scene where he wipes his tears away thinking about saying goodbye to Ellie. When he gets emotional when Ellie gives him the picture of Sarah later, the camera avoids turning to see his face until after he’s done talking. This also happens in the very brief moment you play Joel in the last of us part two, when Tommy says “can’t say I would have done any different. I’ll take it to the grave if I have to” Joel gets emotional and you can’t move the camera far enough to see his face. Joel’s on a whole new level of traumatized where he can’t even open up to the audience 😅
1:12:54 Did you notice that the zombies are caused by fungus!? It's subtle, but they do hint at it throughout the game.
18:18 The amount of times I've played this game to have never caught this interaction...
Excellent video. watching all these important, character defining moments back to back with the music tracks you chose brought tears to my eyes. I had forgotten how emotional this game made me.
Fun fact. In the original version of the game, when Tess demands to know why Ellie's medical status said that she was infected, she actually didn't point her gun at her. The voice acting is the same throughout both versions, so the tone implies the threat, but she didn't actually aim the gun at her. It seems small, but this seemingly little change in character action informs us that Tess knew she was in control even without needing to hold a gun to a child's face. It somehow comes off as more badass to me, like she's in control in this situation both without needing to draw her gun, and it showcased her ability to remain calm in a seemingly bad situation. The gun being aimed just feels a bit much for me, personally. I don't know what you'd think about it though. Maybe it's whatever.
Edit: She sorta moves the gun forward, but doesn't aim it directly in Ellie's face like she does in the Remake. Again, it's a small detail, but I think it's one worth discussing since it shows how in control Tess is at all times.
I feel really vindicated rn in the sense that I have always found the way TLOU approaches violence and morality to be frustrating, so thank you for articulating it so perfectly :)
Lmao “I’m showing clips here because if I misquote it, you guys will tear me apart”
20mins later, categorically eviscerating Part 2, the TV series and Druckmann.
Also I completely agree with everything you said.
It’s interesting, what you had to say around 46:50 concerning Texas and it being interesting that Joel doesn’t seem to have problematic things to say.
I’ve lived my whole life in Texas, and while I’m not surprised of the view the rest of the world seems to have of it, you’d be surprised as to how many people there actually are (and that I’ve encountered over the last 30 years) of all ages that don’t seem to have problematic views. No racism and such. Texas is enormous, and it’s like a country itself in its own right.
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve known a LOT of bigots, and the grander opinion of the state is justified. Still, I feel it necessary to point out how many good people are here that aren’t hateful, and that’s even in the rural areas, where I grew up. Austin especially is considered more “liberal” by people in other parts of the state.
No I totally understand! I tried to offer as comprehensive a disclaimer as I could. I don't think the people of Texas are one homogeny at all :D
This video essay is brilliantly written. Not that you made any groundbreaking points but very articulate and entertaining. Found you from the TLoU2 vid so I was hyped to watch this
Thank you Matt!
@@MertKayKayactually you made one stand out point about Joel’s politics being palatable for a modern audience making him likable. Despite being a hardened murderer, one off color political opinion could have tanked his likability. Very good point
In most games, we apply ourselves to the role of the character. Joel's character flips that by having control of him, not in order to guide him but for the game to show us Joel's journey, play out in front of us.
Qmazing video, very well thought out. Except one thing, the last of us 2 isn't "revenge bad" it's "forgiveness good"
Post in two parts.
Brilliant writeup, you have a lot of great points about the story and it's nice to see a lot of things get mentioned that other people skip over (e.g the dubious consent, and the fireflies being just as objectionable as any other enemy human group in the story)
It's really interesting that the majority of the events of the game place Joel in positions where what he's doing isn't actually wrong or considered evil, despite previous actions that are alluded to. Most of the time, you are fighting for survival against infected or against people who can't be negotiated with, whose immediate reaction is to attack Joel and Ellie.
I agree that from the events in the game and the story within, it's really difficult to actually say Joel was wrong to save Ellie.
Have a few things to say, mostly about the fireflies and the situation in the hospital. This is a long post so please bear with me.
Joel's motivations are obviously deeply personal and I do think that in the situation where he is convinced that the surgery will work and they can actually create a vaccine from it, or if it was a reasonable chance to do so, he would probably still do exactly what he did.
But it does actually go futher than that, because it does matter whether a treatment derived from Ellie would work, and more importantly, if Joel thinks it would work.
Many people skip over this because they believe it's reasonable to assume it was supposed to be a decision Joel was making, but I don't think that's supported with the information you're provided by the game.
I'll go into that after speaking about the fireflies.
Joel is deeply biased toward the fireflies. He hates them because Tommy left him for them. He is dismissive toward them, and believes their actions are useless.
As Joel, the player is presented with this perception of the fireflies and additionally supplied with a gamut of evidence that they are not the heroes of the story, and they simply aren't good at what they do. I feel like a lot of people skip over this because FEDRA is clearly from the start of the game associated with any "evil empire" you see in media, and since the fireflies are supposed to be an opposition group to them, they'll be the plucky, heroic group that will save the day. But they're just not and the game is all too willing to show us this.
First of all with their attacks in Boston on civilians and fighting in the streets. We're never given any context for this, so it's impossible for the player to know what's going on, but we do find out later that they are getting brutulised by FEDRA, both in the Boston QZ and their out of town team which is eliminated without Marlene even knowing. (As a sidenote, what were they even thinking starting a bombing campaign while trying to get Ellie out of the QZ? They initiated a crackdown on themselves which got most of them killed and ruined their own plans. They're not clever).
The fireflies are ambitious, amateurish, make rushed, desperate decisions, and ultimately manage to fail at what they're trying to do.
All of that really doesn't help our opinion of them, or their competence as an organisation. And this theme continues through the game, with their next reference being in Pittsburg, where it's revealed it was them who managed to destabilise the Pittsburg QZ... only for it to spiral out of control into a powerful, organised hunter group, resulting in the death or expulsion of any remaining civilians and the deaths of countless more.
There's a theme developing here. They wanted to control the former Pittsburg QZ and, quoting from what the hunters said when they killed off the fireflies in Pittsburg, spread the revolution. Their ambition and blundering caused another failure.
We next encounter much more information on them in Colorado, where we learn more about them and again, about their failures. They lose Colorado and are forced to leave. They have supply issues and can't even move all of their equipment. They fail at experiments for decades. One of their own remaining doctors actually manages to get himself killed by releasing infected monkeys which promptly bite him (not exactly giving us a positive opinion of their medical quality) but something else that isn't generally talked about is that he released infected monkeys which are now a new way for the fungus to spread, in a vector that the majority of humans aren't aware of. It's not only stupid because of how he died, but it's also just one more indication of their inadequacy in both the skills of their people and as an organisation.
The fireflies are also not good people by any stretch. They actively terrorise and bomb QZs, causing death and misery to civilian populations dependent on FEDRA. If their goal was to be a viable alternative, where are the jackson style settlements, where is the actual progress? Their actions at the end of the game in their treatment of Joel and Ellie just reveals to us that despite their claims and moralising, they really are no better than the groups they assert they're better than, like FEDRA. Marlene also pushes several buttons with her rather petulant behaviour, claiming that she is the one truly suffering from the decision to kill Ellie when we know from the context of the story that she prioritised herself and her goal over Ellie at every point, from birth to the decision to kill her.
Another sidenote here on the fireflies is if their real goal was saving the human race by treatment at any cost, they wouldn't have banked on a goal of getting a girl across 2400 miles on a very dangerous journey. It's in every major group's best interests for a cure to exist. The fact that they entirely disregarded any of them in favour of doing it alone is deeply suspicious, because there really is no reason for them to be the sole controllers of a treatment if the goal is the betterment of mankind. It's clear that they stand to gain and want to do so.
Well, it's that or just another ambitious but rubbish plan, typical of fireflies. Toss-up, really.
2nd part.
Why is all of this about the fireflies important? Because it matters deeply to the context of the scenes in the hospital. Joel has been along with us this entire time in this journey, already had very negative views toward them as an organisation, and the information we receive since overwhelmingly points negatively toward them. Joel, and by extension, the player, has no reason to trust their word, on anything.
So, bearing all of this in mind, let's think back to Joel's opinions on a treatment. We see from the very start he doesn't. He's dismissive, and the only reason he ever sets out on the journey is his personal relationship with Tess, and then later his relationship with Ellie. At no point does he care about a treatment or view it as a realistic possibility, and a few minutes after arriving in Salt Lake he proposes simply leaving.
So, beyond all the other things in the story (dubious consent, given Ellie's age, trauma, and lack of a guardian to adequately represent her, fireflies mistreatment, etc) there is another real problem for the argument against Joel, which is the idea that Joel was sacrificing a treatment. He doesn't believe one is possible, and never did, and nothing the fireflies said or did would have convinced him otherwise, not that they really tried. You can also tack on that they've been there less than a day - a few hours at most - and Joel, while not being a doctor, is still someone who was brought up in a country with normalised and routine medical procedures. Many of the characters in the game are younger, but Joel is old enough to have been a adult for over a decade by the time of the infection and realise the strangeness of moving to a deadly procedure in a few hours.
It's one more on the tally of ambitious, rushed, desperate decisionmaking of a group that has been shown to fail every single one so far. Their only success story in the entire game is a direct result of Joel, not the fireflies.
So now the context of Joel being told about the surgery, is "you're going to kill Ellie for something that will never work, is a pipe-dream, is a fantasy" it completely changes the scenario even further in Joel's favour.
Joel even gets justified by this instantly after, because we get told two things: One, that the move from receiving Joel and Ellie to surgery was literally in the span of a few hours, because of the dates on the files we find, and also that the doctor outright states that the cause of Ellie's immunity is unknown after he has done several tests on her, before going into a self-congratulatory talk about how he's going to save the world. This is the last note we see from the doctor about the situation.
On a different topic, now, sacrificing a treatment is also not actually the doom of humanity like the fireflies or anyone else suggest it is. Any sort of treatment quite clearly isn't required for human survival, or the future, which is made plainly obvious by the fact that people, in large numbers, are still alive and surviving, and additionally, from what Marlene says in the final cutscenes: Torn apart by infected, or murdered by raiders. There would still be plenty of danger in this world if no one could get infected ever again, even if that was even possible. A treatment won't save the world, and never could by itself.
When we meet Tommy in fall, we learn that Tommy abandoned the fireflies, and is actually doing well. Jackson is critical to this point, and the reason is because it is clear evidence that it's not FEDRA or the Fireflies who have the only chance of creating a better world for people to live in, and neither do you actually require a treatment to do so. Humanity is not doomed because of a lack of access to a treatment. It just needs to work on saving itself. Arguably, it's the fireflies and FEDRA's insistence on trying to maintain or restore the past that are holding people back from actually thriving.
Living away from agricultural areas, in crumbling cities, infested by infected simply isn't a good idea, and there are vast swathes of unoccupied land to use instead.
On the ending of the game, it left a really sour note to me, and I was disappointed in the final scenes of the game for a fairly simple reason. When you consider all of the reasons for why saving Ellie is the right thing to do, Joel shouldn't have and didn't need to lie about the situation. Her death would probably have been meaningless, and they were morally wrong to do so regardless.
It's a real plot problem, and I think it's against his character to do so, when at all other points, he has been either brutally honest with Ellie and unwilling to lie to spare feelings. It's a real plot problem, and could have only been done as poor writing or setting up contrived plot matters for a sequel, which of course, it did.
This is an excellent doc on TLOU#1. i thought I'd heard it all but you managed to rake up some food fkr thought all these years later. Great work
I’m with you girl. I spent all last week, not just wearing 2 hoodies, but also 2 pairs of bottoms. The only clothing recommendation I would ever consider making is these super warm leggings I got from primark. They were about £7 and look like regular black leggings but have the softest thickest fur on the inside. I know this sounds like it could be horrible but it’s super soft and comfortable, even after a bunch of washes. Seriously, if you live in the UK and have a cold house I can’t recommend enough. I’m going back for more on Friday. I was walking my dog in them at 3am in the snow (she’s old and mental) And you can wear them under something else if you’re super nesh. They were by the tills. Seriously.
i like that they went deeper into bills character and his relationship with frank in the show. however , they used all of bills time showing their relationship and not who he is aside from that
Y'know guys, I'm starting to think that like...killing the sole specimen immune to a world-ending disease-a young specimen, who still has years to physically develop- to try and develop a theoretical instant-cure panacea might be a little short-sighted? I dunno, I'm no rocket scientist ¯\_(ツ)_/¯