I have been building big block chevys for 41 years. The gear drives are not to be reved over 5500 rpm. Double roller chain kit is still good, just don't go cheap. The best i have used to date is a jezel belt drive, more costly, rev to the moon. It just comes down to the application
Thank you, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and information with us. I am a double roller guy myself , always have been and always will be. There are those who are still going to run gears no we matter what, So we just do the best we can. Thanks again
That 427 Nova is cool all by itself and gear drive, That’s something you just don’t hear running around on the streets anymore, unless it’s a bad alternator. Haha. Thanks for sharing
Wow what a blast from the past! I would not know why anyone would run one on the street unless your 16 years old and want the sound. The major drawbacks are a loss of hp and the drive itself is pretty vicious on the valvetrain. Good video though There are people who think that it is better than a chain but it's way short of a 2000.00 dollar RCD drive or a timing belt.
Yeah definitely a blast from the past, I tried to warn him, but my son was so excited to have that obnoxious sound. It’s going to be fun for him, Fortunately it’s not going to be his daily driver.
You’re so welcome. We fought the first one we installed for the same reasons, you don’t always get instructions with them. At the time there wasn’t a lot of information out there about installing gear drive. I’m glad it was helpful and enjoy your project my friend
Three points that you missed, two about gear drives, one about timing sets in general. Most makers of gear drives make two sets for each particular engine. One set utilizes straight cut gears, these are old school race gears and they make a very pronounced whine when the engine runs and usually gets progressively louder as the RPM increases. Straight cut gears are not compatible with electronic fuel injection/engine management. The whine from the gears messes with the knock sensor, causing the ECM to pull timing out in an attempt to stop what it interprets as spark knock. The other thing about straight cut gears is, if you are sensitive to high Frequency noise, it will get on your nerves on cruise night. That's when a gear drive timing set with "Helical cut gears" comes in. Though, it is not as quiet as a chain drive, the helical gears do reduce "gear whine" a good bit. Not enough to eliminate the whine totally, but enough to make driving the car more enjoyable, depending on your noise tolerance. The only thing about helical cut gears, it is recommended to run a heavier timing cover to handle the added cam thrust/walk induced by the helical cut gears, or to reinforce the stamped cover to make it more rigid. The last point is regarding a toothed belt drive set. I've never had the opportunity to try one, but from what I have both heard and seen from several well know engine builders, the toothed belt is a good option. It's said they are accurate, adjustable, absorb a lot of harmonics from the valve train increasing component life, they are compatible with computer controlled engine management systems, and they are durable and give good service in performance applications, and they only cost slightly more than the gear drive.
David, Thank you very much for sharing all this information. Great stuff. I’m sure there is a lot more that I missed. I hope folks get to read what you you shared. I myself prefer timing chain sets because of the simplicity and the silence. Thanks again my friend.
@nikonboy07 The old saying is, you get what you pay for! As I said, I've never built an engine so exotic as to spec out a Jessel, but I know their claims and the claims of at least two big name builders who claim to swear by them. I've never been sold on a rubber timing belt, myself, but when you see an engine that employs one thrashing out, both high horsepower numbers and doing it consistently, that speaks volumes. Prior to the advent of computer controlled engine management systems, I was a fan of the gear drive for spot-on cam timing. But seeing what computer controls have done for the internal combustion engine and knowing their incompatibility with the noise produced by the gear drive, the other pro's of the belt drive shine even more. And the out of the gate stretch on a chain quickly relegates it to third position behind both belt and gear, not to mention the stability the belt introduces to the valve train.
Thank you so much for sharing this information. It is important to know how things can effect the performance and longevity of your engine such as the timing components. I appreciate your time and comments. Thank you
I will always choose gear drive simply because it will never go bad, of course barring extreme scenarios. It’s something I’ll never need to buy again unless I get into a bad front end collision.
I’ve always thought that as well. Barring all of the horror stories you hear. Install it right and it should last. Thanks for watching and for your comment my friend.
I remember back in the 80s hearing a Pete Jackson gear drive. It was on a radical Chevelle with big block. Just the winding sound alone was loud. Then I remember hearing people removing the drive because it was just too loud. So it wasn't a really good choice?
I know, right? The good ol days. It’s not my choice on this engine. I actually prefer the quieter timing chain. My son has his heart set on this noise. Sometimes you need to experience all the fun things for yourself. Thanks for sharing
Deirdre I will send the harmonics from the crankshaft to the camshaft At least with the timing chain you minimize add but the best way to go would be with us cog belt system in you won't have the harmonics traveling up to the camshaft
I agree with you, and I’ve had a few comments about the harmonics and I should have mentioned that in the video, I’m a chain guy myself, however there are other things at play here, I have a son that really wants to hear that obnoxious sound and fortunately this isn’t going to be his daily driver. What do you prefer to use?
In 41 years of building engines. I have never found any harmonics from a gear drive, on my stusco dyno, I have seen 50 hp gain with a gear drive below 4000 rpm, but it loses hp after 5000 rpm. Again gear drives are not designed to Rev over 5500 rpm. You can Rev it over, but it could be a disaster sooner or later.
Let's make one point about a roller chain and a gear drive, gear drives for made for solid roller cams with a lot of lift and heavy spring pressure. A dual roller chain is a great chain for heavy-duty Street stuff And racing.
Uhhh yeah… no. Pete Jackson gear drives were around way before anything “roller” like the 70s belt drives are the strongest available and the reason gear drives aren’t a feasible option in a lot of situations is valvetrain harmonics from steel on steel directly to the camshaft… try reading a bit before you post an OPINION
Couple Questions ? Can I get away with not having to drop my oil pan ? Engine is still in the car ..lining up the timing marks just line those two dots up ? And last torquing the valve bolts or just tighten those up? Thank you
Hey there, thanks for reaching out, but Sorry to say, the best way is to at least loosen the pan enough so that you can reinstall the front cover when done and definitely use some RTV sealer. Yes align those 2 dots on the gears. Torque to spec. There are several ways to adjust valves, I’m guessing this is a SBC or BBC. If you’ve never done this before then do some extra research, but get a manual and follow those instructions. That way it’s spelled out clearly for you. I’m just afraid to mislead you in this process. It’s not hard to do. I usually adjust mine with engine running but sometimes it can be messy. Thanks and good luck to you.
@@BillCutter310 I’m not totally sure but I’m thinking it has a lot to do with reducing harmonics and maybe adds some strength to the drive set. I’m sure there are folks out there who would know exactly why they’re different sizes. I hope this is helpful thanks for your question and thank you for watching
Why do they have you line up the 2 dots on the Exhaust TDC 12 & 6. Instead of Compression TDC at 12 & 12 ?. Also is there a clearance between the none drive idle gear. ?
If I understand your question, Most v8 engines have the two timing gears line up in that configuration, I suppose it is to ensure better alignment of the two gears, less guesswork. Yes there is actually a lot of clearance behind the reverse idler gear. The power idler gear axle does the job of aligning the idler gear set. I hope this helps.
Dual idler style gear drives are about the worst you can get. The gears wedge against each other and can cause a loss in power among other issues. If you want a gear drive, a single idler style, full cover design is the way you should go.
That is absolutely the truth. The fixed idler does not sheave into the gears and once set to about 3 thousands of an inch clearance it is set for the life of the engine. Then just move it over to the next engine. Plus they have very little parasitic consumption of power. Also, the cam button is not there to apply pressure to the cam. The helical gear and if you have flat tablets both of those are designed to apply pressure toward the back of the block. Your thrust plate should have a bearing, not a bushing that will dry out.
You’re right, it’s just because it’s boring. I can tell you how I did it. I scribed a mark on it, wrapped tape around it, (so as to not get debris in the bearings), clamped into vice and took a flap disc on hand grinder. I stopped and test fit it as I reached the scribe mark. Then cleaned it thoroughly oiled it and install. It gets very hot fast so watch out. It’s just that simple. Sorry I didn’t show it only takes a couple minutes to do. I hope that helps
I can’t answer that with any certainty but I don’t believe it’s going to effect the gears tolerance, my thoughts are that a line bored engine should put the crank precisely where it belongs. I’m sure there is someone out there who could answer that question better than I can.
No. When you line bore a block the crank is still located in the same centerline. The machinist will remove your main bearing caps and surface the mating edges. This makes the bore the crank is cradled in oblong. Then he re-bores the block with the main caps bolted in place retaining the original cradle centerline.
Don’t ever install a gear drive on any engine, ever!! Put any horsepower to it, they will grenade!! Bend every valve in the motor and smoke at least 4 pistons. Jesel belt drive is the best your money can buy. If you’ve never smoked a gear drive, then you haven’t made real power. And learned your lesson.
Yes belt drives are pretty much mandatory if you want an engine that turn 7000 to 9000 for hours to live. Less weight and much less parasitic drag. However, gear drives are very streetable and we have had very good experiences with them in sprint cars and off road applications. Belts have a finite life span and need to be renewed frequently compared to a 3 gear fixed idler gear drive which can live through several engine rebuilds.
😂😂, never heard of any gear drive “grenading” moroso still runs a very high quality gear drive with one idler on ver high HP engines. Belts and chains help with harmonics going to the valvetrain, belts don’t stretch like timing chains hence them being the optimal choice. But who has 1k to spend on a belt drive on a street strip engine, don’t put your bad juju out into the world, gear drives have their place and are reliable, minus some timing issues because of gear slop, other than harmonics and slop they are pretty bullet proof, grenading? No, never in my 40 years heard that false information, in fact when working at my last machine shop, the 555 that made 1k hp for a drag and drive had a gear drive on it… so yeah. Belt drives are #1 in my personal opinion, but no spring/cam combo has enough pressure to break steel gears, even the boost boys
@@ni_wink84 Ok there race guy! I should have specifically said a Pete Jackson style gear drive, and I stand behind my statement. If you are making big power, Trust me, you have an extra 1500$ for a jesel system. Other than that , you are wrong. But go ahead and trust your POS gear drive, that’s your right. But you will find out the hard way I promise! I know,I know, you have a machine shop buddy that says otherwise, good for you. Look at any high horsepower forms of racing, yep, nobody runs a gear drive. And if you do, you are dumb AF!!!
Hahaha, That’s funny, I don’t think I said that it was quite….. hahaha I’ll have to re check the video, but I’m sure I said it’s going to be noisy and obnoxious.
Hahaha ok, I just rewatched the video and it was the timing chain I was talking about being quiet, and in the following video we talked about it being noisy and obnoxious. Sorry about the confusion. Yes everyone knows just how noisy gear-drives are hahaha
Exactly what I needed, answered all my questions! Appreciate ya
That’s great. Thank you my friend.
I have been building big block chevys for 41 years.
The gear drives are not to be reved over 5500 rpm.
Double roller chain kit is still good, just don't go cheap.
The best i have used to date is a jezel belt drive, more costly, rev to the moon.
It just comes down to the application
Thank you, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and information with us. I am a double roller guy myself , always have been and always will be. There are those who are still going to run gears no we matter what, So we just do the best we can. Thanks again
Down to the application, exactly. Great comment sir. I hope your still building God bless
Best video on this subject so far, Many Thanks !
Thank you so much. I appreciate that
I had a 427 in a 69 nova back in the day with a Pete Jackson drive. Loved it
That 427 Nova is cool all by itself and gear drive, That’s something you just don’t hear running around on the streets anymore, unless it’s a bad alternator. Haha. Thanks for sharing
Wow what a blast from the past! I would not know why anyone would run one on the street unless your 16 years old and want the sound. The major drawbacks are a loss of hp and the drive itself is pretty vicious on the valvetrain. Good video though There are people who think that it is better than a chain but it's way short of a 2000.00 dollar RCD drive or a timing belt.
Yeah definitely a blast from the past, I tried to warn him, but my son was so excited to have that obnoxious sound. It’s going to be fun for him, Fortunately it’s not going to be his daily driver.
ive yet to see a dyno pull showing loss of power. i wish engine masters would do this so i could see
Great thanks for thi info I bought a noisy gear drive but no installation info Allright now I thought it was tight , thanks
You’re so welcome. We fought the first one we installed for the same reasons, you don’t always get instructions with them. At the time there wasn’t a lot of information out there about installing gear drive. I’m glad it was helpful and enjoy your project my friend
That was awesome thank you
Thank you for the kind words and for watching.
Thanks for sharing this vital information….
Thanks. I really hope it helps.
Three points that you missed, two about gear drives, one about timing sets in general.
Most makers of gear drives make two sets for each particular engine. One set utilizes straight cut gears, these are old school race gears and they make a very pronounced whine when the engine runs and usually gets progressively louder as the RPM increases. Straight cut gears are not compatible with electronic fuel injection/engine management. The whine from the gears messes with the knock sensor, causing the ECM to pull timing out in an attempt to stop what it interprets as spark knock.
The other thing about straight cut gears is, if you are sensitive to high Frequency noise, it will get on your nerves on cruise night. That's when a gear drive timing set with "Helical cut gears" comes in. Though, it is not as quiet as a chain drive, the helical gears do reduce "gear whine" a good bit. Not enough to eliminate the whine totally, but enough to make driving the car more enjoyable, depending on your noise tolerance. The only thing about helical cut gears, it is recommended to run a heavier timing cover to handle the added cam thrust/walk induced by the helical cut gears, or to reinforce the stamped cover to make it more rigid.
The last point is regarding a toothed belt drive set. I've never had the opportunity to try one, but from what I have both heard and seen from several well know engine builders, the toothed belt is a good option. It's said they are accurate, adjustable, absorb a lot of harmonics from the valve train increasing component life, they are compatible with computer controlled engine management systems, and they are durable and give good service in performance applications, and they only cost slightly more than the gear drive.
David, Thank you very much for sharing all this information. Great stuff. I’m sure there is a lot more that I missed. I hope folks get to read what you you shared. I myself prefer timing chain sets because of the simplicity and the silence. Thanks again my friend.
Jessel belt drive kits cost a small fortune☹️
@nikonboy07 The old saying is, you get what you pay for!
As I said, I've never built an engine so exotic as to spec out a Jessel, but I know their claims and the claims of at least two big name builders who claim to swear by them. I've never been sold on a rubber timing belt, myself, but when you see an engine that employs one thrashing out, both high horsepower numbers and doing it consistently, that speaks volumes.
Prior to the advent of computer controlled engine management systems, I was a fan of the gear drive for spot-on cam timing. But seeing what computer controls have done for the internal combustion engine and knowing their incompatibility with the noise produced by the gear drive, the other pro's of the belt drive shine even more. And the out of the gate stretch on a chain quickly relegates it to third position behind both belt and gear, not to mention the stability the belt introduces to the valve train.
Thank you so much for sharing this information. It is important to know how things can effect the performance and longevity of your engine such as the timing components. I appreciate your time and comments. Thank you
Back in the day smokey preached gear drives, he used two gears with reverse ground cams. Chevy B.B. big truck engines used same thing.
Its the axle or the block... but one of the two always needs machining to make a gear drive set fit properly.
Thanks for the input and advice my friend
I will always choose gear drive simply because it will never go bad, of course barring extreme scenarios. It’s something I’ll never need to buy again unless I get into a bad front end collision.
I’ve always thought that as well. Barring all of the horror stories you hear. Install it right and it should last. Thanks for watching and for your comment my friend.
I remember back in the 80s hearing a Pete Jackson gear drive. It was on a radical Chevelle with big block. Just the winding sound alone was loud. Then I remember hearing people removing the drive because it was just too loud.
So it wasn't a really good choice?
I know, right? The good ol days. It’s not my choice on this engine. I actually prefer the quieter timing chain. My son has his heart set on this noise. Sometimes you need to experience all the fun things for yourself. Thanks for sharing
Deirdre I will send the harmonics from the crankshaft to the camshaft
At least with the timing chain you minimize add but the best way to go would be with us cog belt system in you won't have the harmonics traveling up to the camshaft
I agree with you, and I’ve had a few comments about the harmonics and I should have mentioned that in the video, I’m a chain guy myself, however there are other things at play here, I have a son that really wants to hear that obnoxious sound and fortunately this isn’t going to be his daily driver. What do you prefer to use?
In 41 years of building engines. I have never found any harmonics from a gear drive, on my stusco dyno, I have seen 50 hp gain with a gear drive below 4000 rpm, but it loses hp after 5000 rpm.
Again gear drives are not designed to Rev over 5500 rpm. You can Rev it over, but it could be a disaster sooner or later.
Let's make one point about a roller chain and a gear drive, gear drives for made for solid roller cams with a lot of lift and heavy spring pressure. A dual roller chain is a great chain for heavy-duty Street stuff And racing.
Thank you for watching and for your input on the matter. I myself prefer the chain.
Uhhh yeah… no. Pete Jackson gear drives were around way before anything “roller” like the 70s belt drives are the strongest available and the reason gear drives aren’t a feasible option in a lot of situations is valvetrain harmonics from steel on steel directly to the camshaft… try reading a bit before you post an OPINION
Couple Questions ? Can I get away with not having to drop my oil pan ? Engine is still in the car ..lining up the timing marks just line those two dots up ? And last torquing the valve bolts or just tighten those up? Thank you
I did change my cam to a thumper cam 😀
Hey there, thanks for reaching out, but Sorry to say, the best way is to at least loosen the pan enough so that you can reinstall the front cover when done and definitely use some RTV sealer. Yes align those 2 dots on the gears. Torque to spec. There are several ways to adjust valves, I’m guessing this is a SBC or BBC. If you’ve never done this before then do some extra research, but get a manual and follow those instructions. That way it’s spelled out clearly for you. I’m just afraid to mislead you in this process. It’s not hard to do. I usually adjust mine with engine running but sometimes it can be messy. Thanks and good luck to you.
That’s going to sound awesome. Thumpers always sound great. Enjoy your ride my friend
Why is one idler gear larger than the other gear? Why not make them the same size?
@@BillCutter310 I’m not totally sure but I’m thinking it has a lot to do with reducing harmonics and maybe adds some strength to the drive set. I’m sure there are folks out there who would know exactly why they’re different sizes. I hope this is helpful thanks for your question and thank you for watching
Why do they have you line up the 2 dots on the Exhaust TDC 12 & 6. Instead of Compression TDC at 12 & 12 ?. Also is there a clearance between the none drive idle gear. ?
If I understand your question, Most v8 engines have the two timing gears line up in that configuration, I suppose it is to ensure better alignment of the two gears, less guesswork. Yes there is actually a lot of clearance behind the reverse idler gear. The power idler gear axle does the job of aligning the idler gear set. I hope this helps.
Dual idler style gear drives are about the worst you can get. The gears wedge against each other and can cause a loss in power among other issues. If you want a gear drive, a single idler style, full cover design is the way you should go.
Thank you, we appreciate you for sharing this information.
That is absolutely the truth. The fixed idler does not sheave into the gears and once set to about 3 thousands of an inch clearance it is set for the life of the engine. Then just move it over to the next engine. Plus they have very little parasitic consumption of power.
Also, the cam button is not there to apply pressure to the cam. The helical gear and if you have flat tablets both of those are designed to apply pressure toward the back of the block. Your thrust plate should have a bearing, not a bushing that will dry out.
Why does nobody show the actual trimming with what ever tool , it always magically reappears trimmed to fit. So frustrating
You’re right, it’s just because it’s boring. I can tell you how I did it. I scribed a mark on it, wrapped tape around it, (so as to not get debris in the bearings), clamped into vice and took a flap disc on hand grinder. I stopped and test fit it as I reached the scribe mark. Then cleaned it thoroughly oiled it and install. It gets very hot fast so watch out. It’s just that simple. Sorry I didn’t show it only takes a couple minutes to do. I hope that helps
If you're block has been line bored does the gear drive run too tight?
I can’t answer that with any certainty but I don’t believe it’s going to effect the gears tolerance, my thoughts are that a line bored engine should put the crank precisely where it belongs. I’m sure there is someone out there who could answer that question better than I can.
No. When you line bore a block the crank is still located in the same centerline. The machinist will remove your main bearing caps and surface the mating edges. This makes the bore the crank is cradled in oblong. Then he re-bores the block with the main caps bolted in place retaining the original cradle centerline.
Don’t ever install a gear drive on any engine, ever!! Put any horsepower to it, they will grenade!! Bend every valve in the motor and smoke at least 4 pistons. Jesel belt drive is the best your money can buy. If you’ve never smoked a gear drive, then you haven’t made real power. And learned your lesson.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience on this. That sounds painful.
Yes belt drives are pretty much mandatory if you want an engine that turn 7000 to 9000 for hours to live. Less weight and much less parasitic drag. However, gear drives are very streetable and we have had very good experiences with them in sprint cars and off road applications. Belts have a finite life span and need to be renewed frequently compared to a 3 gear fixed idler gear drive which can live through several engine rebuilds.
I've been running a gear drive on a Boss 302 since the 80's.
I can run the engine to 7,000 grand anytime.
I trust it more than a chain.
😂😂, never heard of any gear drive “grenading” moroso still runs a very high quality gear drive with one idler on ver high HP engines. Belts and chains help with harmonics going to the valvetrain, belts don’t stretch like timing chains hence them being the optimal choice. But who has 1k to spend on a belt drive on a street strip engine, don’t put your bad juju out into the world, gear drives have their place and are reliable, minus some timing issues because of gear slop, other than harmonics and slop they are pretty bullet proof, grenading? No, never in my 40 years heard that false information, in fact when working at my last machine shop, the 555 that made 1k hp for a drag and drive had a gear drive on it… so yeah. Belt drives are #1 in my personal opinion, but no spring/cam combo has enough pressure to break steel gears, even the boost boys
@@ni_wink84 Ok there race guy! I should have specifically said a Pete Jackson style gear drive, and I stand behind my statement. If you are making big power, Trust me, you have an extra 1500$ for a jesel system. Other than that , you are wrong. But go ahead and trust your POS gear drive, that’s your right. But you will find out the hard way I promise! I know,I know, you have a machine shop buddy that says otherwise, good for you. Look at any high horsepower forms of racing, yep, nobody runs a gear drive. And if you do, you are dumb AF!!!
Hear it suck
Whaaa?
@@Farm10customs you saying its quiet,you are lying!!all you can hear...
Hahaha, That’s funny, I don’t think I said that it was quite….. hahaha I’ll have to re check the video, but I’m sure I said it’s going to be noisy and obnoxious.
@@Farm10customs you never said it was quiet,they are annoyingly loud
Hahaha ok, I just rewatched the video and it was the timing chain I was talking about being quiet, and in the following video we talked about it being noisy and obnoxious. Sorry about the confusion. Yes everyone knows just how noisy gear-drives are hahaha