Fun fact about this if anyone remembers Smash The Record 2017 Charity tournament, Chudat was there, drunk out of his mind and we got this legendary interaction. Commentator: Hey Chu I think Leffen might be awake right now and able to give a donation or two Chudat: Yo Leffen give us money dude Commentator: How much does he owe you for UCF Chudat: A lot... fuck that guy *que everyone freaking out and Chudat saying "I'm kidding I love Leffen" in a drunken slur*
Would be nice, but unfortunately doesn’t work that way, at least not in regards to how double sets are handled. Ex. Loser goes 3-0 in grand finals, now the set resets since the winner didn’t lose a set before this point. Second set goes to game 5, winner’s side takes it in game 5. Even though the person in the loser’s side won 5/8 of the games, they don’t win the tournament. I fear that if they would have done a tie breaker just because of the first set, then there would probably be a lot of people arguing outcomes in various tournaments.
It's a problem grand final resets have: of the loser's side person wins set 1 3-2 and the winner's side wins set 2 3-2, they'll win the tournament despite being even in games at 5-5 overall.
Bad take. If he did this and refused to play because it wasn't fixed and wanted further inspection people would say he's a bitch. Source: I hate leffen
it kinda makes sense, i remember them saying they replayed it because shine 2017 was so heavily advertised as the (first) UCF tournament, and THE ucf tournament having a non-ucf tournament set wouldve made the results and the advertising more disingenuous than the result we got
Even in the clips shown here, although @turndownforwalt didn't analyze it, is clear that Leffen is missing a LOT of shield drops. He almost always full hopped before getting down on a platform and you can see him getting progressively more tilted in the set (look at how his fox is moving around platforms, all the shield drops are super clunky)
Chudat is just your average half popular nerd bully who got away with sexual assault on high-school And he's an ice climbers main He deserves this. Fuck that guy
I honestly believe Chu when he says he could’ve gone farther. M2k was partial to busting out a quadranary Peach against Ice Climbers, and S2J is a scary but totally beatable opponent for him. It would’ve been a tough bracket, but I think Leffen was his biggest challenge for a 3rd place finish. Such a shame that the set was erased.
I would say there was a very good chance he wins vs m2k. He was 3-1 on m2k that year, including double eliminating him at battle of bc 2 to win that tourney. M2k really looked lost vs chu that year.
@@AgentOrange502 Chudat beat him at Smash Rivalries that year, but they've had some back and forths, at Pound 2019 they had a super close game 5 set, overall S2J usually wins but def not a free win for him.
@@kevinfetters7040 considering he was carried with wobbling in those previous sets and wobbling is now banned in the majority of tournaments. And Johnny getting much better still while chudat fell off. This is 1000% free for s2j now
LOL you didn't have to do Hugs like that. Jokes aside, this is an incredible video and I always love hearing more about past events in Melee. Keep up the great work :)
In tennis, a "good faith" guideline is followed. Each point starts with one player serving and the other player receiving. If the players mess up and one guy accidentally serves when it's not his turn (ie: during a tiebreaker set) and the other player returns the serve and the point is played out "in good faith". Even if the players realize their mistake afterwards, that erroneously played out point STILL COUNTS even though serving is considered an advantage. Not EXACTLY comparable since repeated failed movement in melee can destroy confidence but still some food for thought when compared to a real life sports setting. I see both sides and there's no solution that makes everyone happy. Imo that 1st set should have counted for something, forcing a replay of the set but giving Chu an automatic 1 game lead would have been more fair since the way the TOs handled it, Chu got NOTHING for winning the 1st set.
Not comparable because the mistake was not of the players, but of the tournament organisers. It would be more like, instead of a fresh tennis ball, an old one that had been smashed out of shape was handed to one of the players to serve and this confused both the players because the ball was not behaving how they expect it to.
@@floofzykitty5072 or if the ball was weighted but appeared like a normal ball. And the players may have noticed something was off, but didnt realize it wasnt a regulation ball until after the set.
@@eragon78 Execpt for the fact that it would be as if a new regulation ball was made and this was the first tournament using the new ball but they used an older perfectly fine ball that used to be the standard. The player who one with the old rules should still be declared winner
@@josuebalderas2075 I completely disagree. If a sports tournament had a certain regulation and then used some OTHER tournament's regulation equipment that completely changes the situation of the game and can strongly affect the outcome, then no. The game SHOULD be replayed if you want an honest result. Players were promised a certain conditions and standards, and those were not upheld during the match, therefore the match should be replayed EVEN IF the equipment USED to be regulation. Because in the current ruleset, it is NO LONGER regulation, regardless of if it was in the past.
Good thing we're playing Melee and not Tennis. There is no "good faith" guideline in wrestling, football, soccer, basketball. So lets compare Melee to most real life sports settings instead of one niche one you like because you don't like leffen. Hate when NEET incels try and compare everything in esports to real sports. If your fucking controller doesn't work properly you replay it. You wouldn't play a basketball game if your shoes were fucked up, you wouldn't play football if your helmet is broke. Don't worry though you're using just the right amount of logic to make your comparison AIRTIGHT
I went to Shine 2017, my friends and I went to the Shake Shack down the street but on the way back Leffen was outside on the other side of the street after the rematch and people were booing him. I felt really bad for him.
I’m going through a tough breakup with a fiancé, and somehow these narrative essays on Melee are helping me feel much better. This game and the history around it, and people that want to cultivate and keep that history in the forefront are really doing an amazing job at giving people hope. That’s probably cheesy, but it’s true. Thanks, man. Melee is sick.
I really dig your honesty and willingness to put that out there🤙🏻. It’ll get better w time though homie, ride the waves and keep it going. Also I agree, melee is sick. A world of its own✌🏻
What are the odds my fiancé of 1 year and girlfriend of 4 just left me too. Been playin a LOT of melee these last 2 weeks. Stay strong, she’s not the only person that will make you feel special.
That’s correct! It was meant to be more an explanation for why people were using home-methods to test controllers, but I can see how it could be misinterpreted!
This comment is pointless because nowhere in the video does he say that UCF fixes snapback. The part with snapback is a part of a general “melee play was influenced by controllers” example. Later at 13:15 he LITERALLY says it helps fix dashback and shield drop and NEVER says anything about snapback. In fact, i dont think he ever uses the word snapback throughout the entire video.
derek no i just find it rude to the creator. He goes through all this to inform everyone and this guy has to wrongfully call him out for something he didnt even do
Yep! I just included the snapback clip as an example of homestyle methods players were using to test controller quality, but I can definitely see that causing some confusion based on the UCF description. Sorry about that!
@@cooldes4593 I find cooldes rude towards the commenter. He tried to inform people, clarifying what was said in the video, and this pos has to wrongfully call him out for speaking the truth. And if you think the information wasn't needed, other comment on here was trying to say leffens side b SD was snapback and wouldn't have happened with UCF.
Unfortunate is the word. Chu likely would have gotten top 4, possibly snagging him top 10 for the year. In my heart, Chudat won. I understand the TOs wanting to have it replayed, but on one hand it was their mistake in the first place, on the other hand the game was played without the tournament's ruleset. They ended up going 5-5, yet Leffen got the win? A real shame. Lef is not undeserving, but having what is essentially a draw be awarded as a win to any player sucks.
Well I dont think counting the early games would be fair because ucf wasnt on. If you watch the set you could clearly see leffs fox being baffled at failed shielddrops and even the neutral interaction that won the set was chudat challenging fox on the top platform with upairs while leff tried to shield drop. The controversy of this match was fueled because the community had antis in the ucf debate and ucf was still so new so it wouldnt have been so different after all considering these players wouldnt be used to it not only because people felt bad for chudat. But people failed to see that leffen was not using his main controller but an unideal one for the first ucf tournament.
Chudat as top 10 doesn't work. His icies relies on wobbles too much for him to be consistently good against top players. There are much more deserving players for top 10, like anyone else who was already there. It's a tough spot to break into
@@philipekf432 chudat was rly ry close to top 10 that year, narrowly losing it to s2j. It honestly could have been different with a higher placing at this tourney.
I feel like I'm finally starting to get an idea/be a part of the collective conscious of competitive melee, I'm recognizing these sets as videos are coming out about them!
A great documentary that actually makes people sympathise with an Ice Climbers player. IMO the controversy would be far worse if no UCF was detected and the set was not replayed. This at least gives a sense of finality. It sucks Leffen got negative attention for this incident, however undeserving. But next to Hbox, Leffen is probably the player most used to dealing with a lot of negative attention and either takes it in his stride or revels in it.
I dunno, ICs players get a *lot* of shit. I feel like ive never heard anybody say a single good thing about ICs, and that anger usually extends to their players. Leffen takes a lot of negativity but man do people despise wobbling
@@stephybloops Yes, people do hate wobbling. If this wasn't an Ice Climbers player, Shine 2017 would've gotten more criticism. It says a lot when wobbling has been relevant for 15+ years, and there are still people trying to ban it. It's degenerate gameplay. Nobody is forcing you to play Ice Climbers.
@@elijahk117 Yes, wobbling is degenerate gameplay. You can talk all the shit about shines/chain grabs/etc, but nothing will come close to an infinite that is a guaranteed kill starting at 0% and there's nothing you can do except scream in your opponent's ear hoping they mess up
@@jacquesl9972 why u even talk about it? its banned mostly now and im an ic main and only do hand-offs. people hate ic's mostly because they hate wobbling
While history is important at any time, precedent is what ultimately matters in the heat of the moment while history is being written. Every stumble gives an opportunity to learn and improve. Mistakes happen; we're all imperfect humans. But, how we move forward is what will define us. If I had to take a side, I would go with Set 1. The set was over, there was plenty more Melee already on the docket that night, and very rarely (as far as I know) do settings/rules change mid-tournament, whether or not rules get overturned/changed for later tournaments.
No complete set should ever be replayed. Ever. If Leffen felt something was wrong in game 4 he should’ve addressed the TO like how he does when an opponent accidentally pauses in a match.
The rematch should have been treated like a Grand Finals matchup where Leffen would have to double eliminate chudat and chudat would have only had to win one set. Competitive melee is so mental that being asked to redo a set like that after winning makes it hard to get back in a competitive mentality to perform at your best. The person who lost the match and is given the opportunity to redo will always have the better mentality. The only way to rectify that mentality gap imo is to make it an overall best of 3 sets where the winner of the previous set, Chudat in this case, would only need to win 1 more and the loser of the previous set, Leffen in this case, would need to the next 2 in a row. Sure it would have been longer but I'm sure both players would have agreed to it and its the least the TOs could have done after they messed up that badly.
but wouldn't that be unfair for leffen? because theres a possibility that leffen could win the first set if UCF was on, and now he needs to win 2 sets and its not even his fault.
@@kannalostherjaw.8693 Funny OP mentions competitive Melee being mental yet fails to consider your point as to why their suggestion of a "double elimination" style of redoing the set is unfair for the loser.
The best compromise I could think of would maybe be instead of replaying the entire set, they ONLY replay game 5 on UCF. Honestly, I think the TOs still made the right call here. It was a tough situation and should have never happened to being with, but I do feel that since it did happen, they handled the problem the best they could by replaying the set. The only other compromise I could have seen here would be replaying ONLY game 5.
I remember watching it, and I got a conflicted feeling and upset honestly. Leffen didn't deserve the negative attention at all, but I don't think it should have been another re-set again and I'll put that blame to Shine TOs. Atleast it's something we can learn avoid it happening. Chudat would have more than likely won against Mew2king and gotten really far, but that's just speculation at this point. An unrelated note about UCF itself, I really hated how people made jokes on UCF is bad such as causing Phantom hits; leading to some think the jokes were real. Was annoying to deal with people thinking that's how UCF was, but I'm glad it's dying now. UCF itself is extremely important for every level of melee players.
I'm at the point with your videos now that I like them first and then watch. I've never been let down yet and I do not want to forget. Love you and the excitement your videos give me!
I mean it's easy to interpret that as leffen supporting the idea that it should be replayed, but not going out of his way to use his Top Player Priviledge to get the replay. Voicing his opinion but respecting the TO decision
I don't think those are conflicting statements. Leffen voiced his opinion that the set should be replayed but he did not endorse forcing it against ChuDat's will. You can believe that something should happen while also accepting the fact that others may not. If Chu really was forced by TOs to redo the set, that's really not Leffen's fault, he just sort of became the scapegoat because he was the first to request the rematch and ended up winning.
@@TakumiJoyconBoyz He literally just gave his opinion. He didnt force anyone to do anything. He was just giving his thoughts on the issue. Its hardly taking initiative or pushing for it.
why are more people not subscribed to this channel - your content is consistently of the highest quality!! Some of the best Melee content I've seen in years. Thanks turndownforwalt, keep it up!
I wanna preface that I know both had played on vanilla and UCF before but it’s just so fitting that Chu the more old school name in the scene won on vanilla and Leffen from the new era won on the newer version.
Great stuff. Love how you've shed light on all the different perspectives here as it appears i've never heard all the details about the incident. Thanks!
My thing is; if Leffen had won the set originally, do y'all really think he would have still made the comment about the UCF and suggested replaying the set?
Definitely an unfortunate situation, but it makes sense they went this route because if you are going to be the first major to support UCF and make a big deal about it then it only makes sense they did it this way. Especially since it became the precedent for future majors.
Amazing content as always. Your videos remind me why I love this game and you’re perspective is professional. I wish you all the luck with your channel and I hope your passion invites people to the ssb community!
Shaved off most of the "Up" direction of the D-Pad so they don't accidentally taunt. With that type of control stick grip you can bump it with the side of your thumb.
ChuDat probably would have finished in at least fourth at Shine 2017 if the set hadn't been replayed. Mew2King does notoriously bad against Ice Climbers, and he would have been Chu's next opponent at a tournament where Chu was playing incredibly well. Finishing fourth at a major, and taking out M2K and Leffen along the way, would have almost certainly pushed him into the Top 10 that year.
It would've made a lot more sense to make the set a first to 5 rather than have it replayed. That way Chu could have the advantage and Leffen can still bring it back, and it wouldn't go even so there'd be no controversy on who actually won when they kind of went 5-5.
The moment that game 1 of set 2 starts, you mentioned one thing that I think changes this set drastically. Hindsight. There's no real easy way to handle this, though. Asking PracticalTAS to simulate who would be more likely to win had UCF been on is possible, but not easy. At the end of the day, the TO fucked up, and a TO fucking up means the tournament won't go right no matter what they try to do to change it, because a tournament is structured in such a way that it's not very likely to work if there's fuck-ups.
That’s correct! I was recapping other event happenings at Shine 2017 in that segment, but it might’ve gotten confusing with mentioning Shine 2016 right before. Sorry about that!
@@turndownforwalt Ah np, sorry if my original comment came off rude or smth, I understand things like that happens in the process of making stuff like this. The vid was great btw
This was an important moment, albeit frustrating, to demand proper standards for our tournaments. Looking back on certain historic sets, the best example being SilentSpectre vs. Armada, it's clear that due to the more hostile environment, it'd be impossible for anyone to say "Hey wait, something wasn't right about that set" due to the damage ratio being set to 0.9
A similar thing happened in smash 4 where there was a set played with 0.9 Knockback. I forget exactly who the set was between though. I BELIEVE it was Komorikiri vs Captainzack? but my memory is hazy. TOs decided to replay game 5 only however.
Hey Walt, I've been watching your videos for a while now, we've actually been matched up once or twice on unranked melee online. Just wanted to say I love your videos and I'm a huge fan ❤️
Yo @turndownfotwalt I loved your explanation of the events before the set, as well as the important parts of the set like when were the stocks taken or the huge flubs that I wouldn’t have given much thought. Nice content
I had a watching party for 2017 and I am a big Chu fan I popped up off so hard and screamed with the homies in happiness, then after the commercials the set was being replayed, that shit broke me
Uh did you know that Schnitzel was going to be a playable character in Cartoon Network Punch Time Explosion XL but was scapped due to time? I can't really compare this situation to PTE.
I didn't realize just how much this upset Chudat. I mean it definitely makes sense but half the people defending Leffen acted like it was completely voluntary on the former's part. Also it was really funny how in Losers Semis everyone was cheering for M2K despite him having his own controversy. It was a brutal crowd too, like they were going off. Goes to show how pissed people got about this. I think if anything the moral of the story is to not fuck up your settings.
I've never been this salty about a set. Was a huge Chu fan during this set, and literally everything about this decision pissed me off. Yeah the controller wasn't as good, but he was clearly able to play. It isn't Peach vs Marth where Peach literally dies for missing dashback. So the pros for Chu in the first set are not nearly as much as the pros Leffen had the 2nd set, a crapton of data. And you could see Chu's frustration, he usually misses some wobbles but he missed so many more. UGH
but at the same time, a character like fox requires much higher and more precise inputs, and missing those inputs vs an ice climber can lead to you losing a stock at 0% since Icies have the strongest punish option in the entire game. And not only that, from what I heard, Leffen didnt use his normal controller for this event. He used a different controller because it was on UCF. This means his controller was worse than what he NORMALLY uses for vanilla melee, which means he was at a major handicap. He trusted that every set would be played in UCF and so was able to bring an inferior controller and still compete at the max level. The fact that that wasnt the case means his controller was actively working against him and causing miss inputs more so than someone using their normal controller. And if you think that isnt a big deal, pros have LITERALLY canceled going to super majors because their high quality controllers broke. Its that big of a deal. Thats the ENTIRE reason why UCF was created to begin with.
I think its a good standard the set was replayed. Unfortunately it fucking sucks but if some other rules were changed like setting the damage multipler to 1.5, or having a 3 minute timer they would of course replay it. They weren't playing the exact game the tournament ruleset provided so it doesn't matter if it affected the games outcome or not. IMO
Fun fact about this if anyone remembers Smash The Record 2017 Charity tournament, Chudat was there, drunk out of his mind and we got this legendary interaction.
Commentator: Hey Chu I think Leffen might be awake right now and able to give a donation or two
Chudat: Yo Leffen give us money dude
Commentator: How much does he owe you for UCF
Chudat: A lot... fuck that guy
*que everyone freaking out and Chudat saying "I'm kidding I love Leffen" in a drunken slur*
I think they played that recording in this video
@@ohDJ_ I don't think it was but you can check it out if you'd like because I think it's hilarious:
clips.twitch.tv/BillowingMoralMeatloafGOWSkull
@@aqgpandemic5406 holy shit he sounds smacked lmao
1:03
Ricardo Morin He was wasted, if you want more funny Drunk Chu look up Drunk Chudat Rapping because it’s the greatest thing I’ve ever seen
Im convinced this video was made just as an excuse to show the clip where Hugs lost two stocks to ChuDat's sopo for top 8
...maybe
The only definitive anything in the whole video. Its beautiful
@@turndownforwalt you’ve been caught red handed
The final score at the end of their 2 sets was 5-5. If I were the TO, I'd make them play another game to break the tie.
Not a bad idea!
Would be nice, but unfortunately doesn’t work that way, at least not in regards to how double sets are handled.
Ex.
Loser goes 3-0 in grand finals, now the set resets since the winner didn’t lose a set before this point. Second set goes to game 5, winner’s side takes it in game 5. Even though the person in the loser’s side won 5/8 of the games, they don’t win the tournament. I fear that if they would have done a tie breaker just because of the first set, then there would probably be a lot of people arguing outcomes in various tournaments.
The correct answer if they had to replay the set then it was well deserved.
@@trueblueryu5713 thats a reset, not a replay.
It's a problem grand final resets have: of the loser's side person wins set 1 3-2 and the winner's side wins set 2 3-2, they'll win the tournament despite being even in games at 5-5 overall.
I think since Leffen took a controller check, didn’t ask a TO to fix it or whatever, then still played the last game, Chudat should have won the set
Belated, but agreed.
Bad take. If he did this and refused to play because it wasn't fixed and wanted further inspection people would say he's a bitch. Source: I hate leffen
You don't miss
gimr why are you bald
THAT BOY DONT MISS
Gimr why are you bald
69 likes, plz no one else like this, GimR and 69 is the most balanced of balances ever
gimr why are you bald
it kinda makes sense, i remember them saying they replayed it because shine 2017 was so heavily advertised as the (first) UCF tournament, and THE ucf tournament having a non-ucf tournament set wouldve made the results and the advertising more disingenuous than the result we got
I'd love to see a look into the set that had no UCF on to see where Leffen actually missed dash backs or b-reverses!
Or shield drops
The "unfortunate side-B SD" in game 3 I think might have been due to snapback.
Corey. V UCF doesn’t fix snapback
@@AloeVerafied it does now
Even in the clips shown here, although @turndownforwalt didn't analyze it, is clear that Leffen is missing a LOT of shield drops. He almost always full hopped before getting down on a platform and you can see him getting progressively more tilted in the set (look at how his fox is moving around platforms, all the shield drops are super clunky)
I always get so sad remembering this happening, chu seemed so happy in the post interview that its heartbreaking
Please dont give me this flashbacks :( ....
Chudat is just your average half popular nerd bully who got away with sexual assault on high-school
And he's an ice climbers main
He deserves this. Fuck that guy
El Mimos what u got against ice climber mains
El Mimos you got clapped by an ice climber or somethin’?
@@EsauSantamariaM *wobbling intensifies*
I honestly believe Chu when he says he could’ve gone farther. M2k was partial to busting out a quadranary Peach against Ice Climbers, and S2J is a scary but totally beatable opponent for him. It would’ve been a tough bracket, but I think Leffen was his biggest challenge for a 3rd place finish. Such a shame that the set was erased.
I would say there was a very good chance he wins vs m2k. He was 3-1 on m2k that year, including double eliminating him at battle of bc 2 to win that tourney. M2k really looked lost vs chu that year.
I disagree. I dont think he can touch s2j. Has he ever beaten him?
@@AgentOrange502 Chudat beat him at Smash Rivalries that year, but they've had some back and forths, at Pound 2019 they had a super close game 5 set, overall S2J usually wins but def not a free win for him.
@@kevinfetters7040 considering he was carried with wobbling in those previous sets and wobbling is now banned in the majority of tournaments. And Johnny getting much better still while chudat fell off. This is 1000% free for s2j now
@@AgentOrange502 That's not what the question was though, the question was whether or not Chudat could have beat him at that tournament.
LOL you didn't have to do Hugs like that. Jokes aside, this is an incredible video and I always love hearing more about past events in Melee. Keep up the great work :)
I always gotta do HugS like that, it’s his curse
In tennis, a "good faith" guideline is followed. Each point starts with one player serving and the other player receiving. If the players mess up and one guy accidentally serves when it's not his turn (ie: during a tiebreaker set) and the other player returns the serve and the point is played out "in good faith". Even if the players realize their mistake afterwards, that erroneously played out point STILL COUNTS even though serving is considered an advantage. Not EXACTLY comparable since repeated failed movement in melee can destroy confidence but still some food for thought when compared to a real life sports setting. I see both sides and there's no solution that makes everyone happy. Imo that 1st set should have counted for something, forcing a replay of the set but giving Chu an automatic 1 game lead would have been more fair since the way the TOs handled it, Chu got NOTHING for winning the 1st set.
Not comparable because the mistake was not of the players, but of the tournament organisers. It would be more like, instead of a fresh tennis ball, an old one that had been smashed out of shape was handed to one of the players to serve and this confused both the players because the ball was not behaving how they expect it to.
@@floofzykitty5072 or if the ball was weighted but appeared like a normal ball. And the players may have noticed something was off, but didnt realize it wasnt a regulation ball until after the set.
@@eragon78 Execpt for the fact that it would be as if a new regulation ball was made and this was the first tournament using the new ball but they used an older perfectly fine ball that used to be the standard. The player who one with the old rules should still be declared winner
@@josuebalderas2075 I completely disagree. If a sports tournament had a certain regulation and then used some OTHER tournament's regulation equipment that completely changes the situation of the game and can strongly affect the outcome, then no. The game SHOULD be replayed if you want an honest result.
Players were promised a certain conditions and standards, and those were not upheld during the match, therefore the match should be replayed EVEN IF the equipment USED to be regulation. Because in the current ruleset, it is NO LONGER regulation, regardless of if it was in the past.
Good thing we're playing Melee and not Tennis. There is no "good faith" guideline in wrestling, football, soccer, basketball. So lets compare Melee to most real life sports settings instead of one niche one you like because you don't like leffen. Hate when NEET incels try and compare everything in esports to real sports. If your fucking controller doesn't work properly you replay it. You wouldn't play a basketball game if your shoes were fucked up, you wouldn't play football if your helmet is broke. Don't worry though you're using just the right amount of logic to make your comparison AIRTIGHT
I went to Shine 2017, my friends and I went to the Shake Shack down the street but on the way back Leffen was outside on the other side of the street after the rematch and people were booing him. I felt really bad for him.
I’m going through a tough breakup with a fiancé, and somehow these narrative essays on Melee are helping me feel much better. This game and the history around it, and people that want to cultivate and keep that history in the forefront are really doing an amazing job at giving people hope. That’s probably cheesy, but it’s true. Thanks, man. Melee is sick.
I really dig your honesty and willingness to put that out there🤙🏻. It’ll get better w time though homie, ride the waves and keep it going. Also I agree, melee is sick. A world of its own✌🏻
Not the same, but just yesterday I broke up with my partner of 2 and a half years. I feel for you
Stay strong man. I've been through it
What are the odds my fiancé of 1 year and girlfriend of 4 just left me too. Been playin a LOT of melee these last 2 weeks. Stay strong, she’s not the only person that will make you feel special.
Sorry to hear that! Even though it might seem like it at first, it really isn't the end of the world
Just a heads up. Contrary to what may have unintentionally be implied by the video, snapback is *not* one of the things UCF works to fix currently.
That’s correct! It was meant to be more an explanation for why people were using home-methods to test controllers, but I can see how it could be misinterpreted!
UCF doesn't fix snapback, it fixes dashback and shield drop.
Correct. Snapback is when your joystick recoils after being released. Happens to me when I do turnaround SHDL as Fox and makes me angry af
This comment is pointless because nowhere in the video does he say that UCF fixes snapback.
The part with snapback is a part of a general “melee play was influenced by controllers” example.
Later at 13:15 he LITERALLY says it helps fix dashback and shield drop and NEVER says anything about snapback.
In fact, i dont think he ever uses the word snapback throughout the entire video.
derek no i just find it rude to the creator. He goes through all this to inform everyone and this guy has to wrongfully call him out for something he didnt even do
Yep! I just included the snapback clip as an example of homestyle methods players were using to test controller quality, but I can definitely see that causing some confusion based on the UCF description. Sorry about that!
@@cooldes4593 I find cooldes rude towards the commenter. He tried to inform people, clarifying what was said in the video, and this pos has to wrongfully call him out for speaking the truth.
And if you think the information wasn't needed, other comment on here was trying to say leffens side b SD was snapback and wouldn't have happened with UCF.
Unfortunate is the word. Chu likely would have gotten top 4, possibly snagging him top 10 for the year. In my heart, Chudat won. I understand the TOs wanting to have it replayed, but on one hand it was their mistake in the first place, on the other hand the game was played without the tournament's ruleset. They ended up going 5-5, yet Leffen got the win? A real shame. Lef is not undeserving, but having what is essentially a draw be awarded as a win to any player sucks.
This is probably the best way to put it. I like seeing this as a 5-5. Never thought of it 🤔🤔
Well I dont think counting the early games would be fair because ucf wasnt on. If you watch the set you could clearly see leffs fox being baffled at failed shielddrops and even the neutral interaction that won the set was chudat challenging fox on the top platform with upairs while leff tried to shield drop. The controversy of this match was fueled because the community had antis in the ucf debate and ucf was still so new so it wouldnt have been so different after all considering these players wouldnt be used to it not only because people felt bad for chudat. But people failed to see that leffen was not using his main controller but an unideal one for the first ucf tournament.
@@altayardicoglu5741 UCF also was a 3rd party device so I mean.
Chudat as top 10 doesn't work. His icies relies on wobbles too much for him to be consistently good against top players. There are much more deserving players for top 10, like anyone else who was already there. It's a tough spot to break into
@@philipekf432 chudat was rly ry close to top 10 that year, narrowly losing it to s2j. It honestly could have been different with a higher placing at this tourney.
I feel like I'm finally starting to get an idea/be a part of the collective conscious of competitive melee, I'm recognizing these sets as videos are coming out about them!
Welcome to the Melee Matrix
being there live was surreal. great work crystallizing an iconic moment in melee history!
A great documentary that actually makes people sympathise with an Ice Climbers player. IMO the controversy would be far worse if no UCF was detected and the set was not replayed. This at least gives a sense of finality. It sucks Leffen got negative attention for this incident, however undeserving. But next to Hbox, Leffen is probably the player most used to dealing with a lot of negative attention and either takes it in his stride or revels in it.
I dunno, ICs players get a *lot* of shit. I feel like ive never heard anybody say a single good thing about ICs, and that anger usually extends to their players. Leffen takes a lot of negativity but man do people despise wobbling
@@stephybloops Yes, people do hate wobbling. If this wasn't an Ice Climbers player, Shine 2017 would've gotten more criticism. It says a lot when wobbling has been relevant for 15+ years, and there are still people trying to ban it. It's degenerate gameplay. Nobody is forcing you to play Ice Climbers.
Jacques L degenerate lmao
@@elijahk117 Yes, wobbling is degenerate gameplay. You can talk all the shit about shines/chain grabs/etc, but nothing will come close to an infinite that is a guaranteed kill starting at 0% and there's nothing you can do except scream in your opponent's ear hoping they mess up
@@jacquesl9972 why u even talk about it? its banned mostly now and im an ic main and only do hand-offs. people hate ic's mostly because they hate wobbling
While history is important at any time, precedent is what ultimately matters in the heat of the moment while history is being written.
Every stumble gives an opportunity to learn and improve. Mistakes happen; we're all imperfect humans. But, how we move forward is what will define us.
If I had to take a side, I would go with Set 1. The set was over, there was plenty more Melee already on the docket that night, and very rarely (as far as I know) do settings/rules change mid-tournament, whether or not rules get overturned/changed for later tournaments.
3:14 is the most hype I've ever been for Chu that transition was sick as fuck
S2J needs to add a chair to his logo LOL
No complete set should ever be replayed. Ever. If Leffen felt something was wrong in game 4 he should’ve addressed the TO like how he does when an opponent accidentally pauses in a match.
The rematch should have been treated like a Grand Finals matchup where Leffen would have to double eliminate chudat and chudat would have only had to win one set. Competitive melee is so mental that being asked to redo a set like that after winning makes it hard to get back in a competitive mentality to perform at your best. The person who lost the match and is given the opportunity to redo will always have the better mentality. The only way to rectify that mentality gap imo is to make it an overall best of 3 sets where the winner of the previous set, Chudat in this case, would only need to win 1 more and the loser of the previous set, Leffen in this case, would need to the next 2 in a row. Sure it would have been longer but I'm sure both players would have agreed to it and its the least the TOs could have done after they messed up that badly.
but wouldn't that be unfair for leffen? because theres a possibility that leffen could win the first set if UCF was on, and now he needs to win 2 sets and its not even his fault.
Not only unfair for Leffen, but also very physically and mentally exhausting for any player, especially when they're coming from losers.
@@kannalostherjaw.8693 Funny OP mentions competitive Melee being mental yet fails to consider your point as to why their suggestion of a "double elimination" style of redoing the set is unfair for the loser.
This is an awful suggestion and no respectable TO would do so.
The best compromise I could think of would maybe be instead of replaying the entire set, they ONLY replay game 5 on UCF.
Honestly, I think the TOs still made the right call here. It was a tough situation and should have never happened to being with, but I do feel that since it did happen, they handled the problem the best they could by replaying the set.
The only other compromise I could have seen here would be replaying ONLY game 5.
If your videos have taught me anything, it's that all Latino melee players, if they get good enough, eventually have beef with Leffen
lotta top level Latino players to be fair
I remember watching it, and I got a conflicted feeling and upset honestly. Leffen didn't deserve the negative attention at all, but I don't think it should have been another re-set again and I'll put that blame to Shine TOs. Atleast it's something we can learn avoid it happening. Chudat would have more than likely won against Mew2king and gotten really far, but that's just speculation at this point.
An unrelated note about UCF itself, I really hated how people made jokes on UCF is bad such as causing Phantom hits; leading to some think the jokes were real. Was annoying to deal with people thinking that's how UCF was, but I'm glad it's dying now. UCF itself is extremely important for every level of melee players.
Fuck off
@@lordmew5 ?
@@lordmew5 no u
Chu had close sets with every opponent he had to fight afterwords he legit had a chance to win the tournament (highly unlikely)
I'm at the point with your videos now that I like them first and then watch. I've never been let down yet and I do not want to forget. Love you and the excitement your videos give me!
I’m very glad to hear that! Thank you!
I love how at 2:07 it isn't a chad meme, making the video more timeless.
Oh boy, here we go.
D1 covering his face at 4:17 almost seems symbolic in a way.
LMAO
Who?
Plot writers suck man. Always dropping obvious foreshadowing smh.
Bruh...
Can you edit the footage that is my life so I can pretend to be cool? Your editing is godlike
2:40 That was so Grimey it made everyone in the group laugh.
22:31 no flame to leffen, I love him, but saying "Imo should be replayed" and "I didn't push for this" kind of contradict each other
I mean it's easy to interpret that as leffen supporting the idea that it should be replayed, but not going out of his way to use his Top Player Priviledge to get the replay. Voicing his opinion but respecting the TO decision
I don't think those are conflicting statements. Leffen voiced his opinion that the set should be replayed but he did not endorse forcing it against ChuDat's will. You can believe that something should happen while also accepting the fact that others may not. If Chu really was forced by TOs to redo the set, that's really not Leffen's fault, he just sort of became the scapegoat because he was the first to request the rematch and ended up winning.
Yeah, I don't hate Leffen or anything but that's a clear statement of intent.
@@TakumiJoyconBoyz He literally just gave his opinion. He didnt force anyone to do anything. He was just giving his thoughts on the issue. Its hardly taking initiative or pushing for it.
your videos are so unbelievably well made dude, time after time you outdo yourself and it makes me always come back to this channel
Thank you! Hope to hear more from you soon!
4:59 really poetic way-though not exactly the clearest way-of explaining double-elimination tournaments.
why are more people not subscribed to this channel - your content is consistently of the highest quality!! Some of the best Melee content I've seen in years. Thanks turndownforwalt, keep it up!
Thank you!
Lol I forget dan salvato plays melee and whenever I hear the name mentioned its always interesting
Doesn't he play a link with the tag Internet Explorer
@@jjrambles683 he does!
I wanna preface that I know both had played on vanilla and UCF before but it’s just so fitting that Chu the more old school name in the scene won on vanilla and Leffen from the new era won on the newer version.
Thank you very much for the awesome videos! It's an honor and a pleasure!
It’s an honor and pleasure to receive a comment like that! Thank you!
@@turndownforwalt You're breathtaking! Haha. I love it. Thanks again. And those combo videos? So sweet as well!
That was insane. Loved the video, editing was on point as usual. Keep up the good work Walt!
Thank you!
I love both your editor and your voice. This channel is great
I am both the editor and the voice, so thank you!
when dan came on it was like a legendary pokemon appeared
That was honestly my favorite part of the entire video LOL
11:41 the interviewer's mouth syncs perfectly with the narrators voice
Mario thought he just had to wallkick to get the star. Hi, I'm Dan Salvato and I'm here to talk about parallel universes.
Love all of your videos. You really make the community a richer place
I really appreciate that. Thanks!
Great stuff. Love how you've shed light on all the different perspectives here as it appears i've never heard all the details about the incident. Thanks!
My thing is; if Leffen had won the set originally, do y'all really think he would have still made the comment about the UCF and suggested replaying the set?
Definitely an unfortunate situation, but it makes sense they went this route because if you are going to be the first major to support UCF and make a big deal about it then it only makes sense they did it this way. Especially since it became the precedent for future majors.
Amazing content as always. Your videos remind me why I love this game and you’re perspective is professional. I wish you all the luck with your channel and I hope your passion invites people to the ssb community!
the weirdest thing about this video popping up in my recommended 2 years later is learning that chu's real name is daniel
12:04 wtf did they do to the dpad....
Shaved off most of the "Up" direction of the D-Pad so they don't accidentally taunt. With that type of control stick grip you can bump it with the side of your thumb.
ChuDat probably would have finished in at least fourth at Shine 2017 if the set hadn't been replayed. Mew2King does notoriously bad against Ice Climbers, and he would have been Chu's next opponent at a tournament where Chu was playing incredibly well. Finishing fourth at a major, and taking out M2K and Leffen along the way, would have almost certainly pushed him into the Top 10 that year.
It would've made a lot more sense to make the set a first to 5 rather than have it replayed. That way Chu could have the advantage and Leffen can still bring it back, and it wouldn't go even so there'd be no controversy on who actually won when they kind of went 5-5.
The moment that game 1 of set 2 starts, you mentioned one thing that I think changes this set drastically. Hindsight.
There's no real easy way to handle this, though. Asking PracticalTAS to simulate who would be more likely to win had UCF been on is possible, but not easy.
At the end of the day, the TO fucked up, and a TO fucking up means the tournament won't go right no matter what they try to do to change it, because a tournament is structured in such a way that it's not very likely to work if there's fuck-ups.
The Shine on Leffen's nose makes Fox mains blush.
including hugs vs chu for absolutely no reason was fucking hilarious
My internet went out for an hour and a half and limped another half hour before I could finish the video.
bangers bangers bangers all this man makes is BANGERS
The editing in this video is amazing. Whoever did this, keep it up 👍🏾
All video editing was done by walt (the narrator)
Omg your video quality just gets even better
S2J vs Mew2King was at Shine 2017, not 2016. M2K actually won the entire event at 2016
That’s correct! I was recapping other event happenings at Shine 2017 in that segment, but it might’ve gotten confusing with mentioning Shine 2016 right before. Sorry about that!
@@turndownforwalt Ah np, sorry if my original comment came off rude or smth, I understand things like that happens in the process of making stuff like this. The vid was great btw
This was an important moment, albeit frustrating, to demand proper standards for our tournaments. Looking back on certain historic sets, the best example being SilentSpectre vs. Armada, it's clear that due to the more hostile environment, it'd be impossible for anyone to say "Hey wait, something wasn't right about that set" due to the damage ratio being set to 0.9
A similar thing happened in smash 4 where there was a set played with 0.9 Knockback. I forget exactly who the set was between though. I BELIEVE it was Komorikiri vs Captainzack? but my memory is hazy.
TOs decided to replay game 5 only however.
Well said!
Hey where did the song that said ice climbers a bunch come from? Doesn't seem to be in the descrpition from what I can tell.
this is insanely well put together
Hey Walt, I've been watching your videos for a while now, we've actually been matched up once or twice on unranked melee online. Just wanted to say I love your videos and I'm a huge fan ❤️
I’m sure we had some great games! Thanks a bunch!
Yo @turndownfotwalt I loved your explanation of the events before the set, as well as the important parts of the set like when were the stocks taken or the huge flubs that I wouldn’t have given much thought. Nice content
Thanks a bunch!
thanks god, my favorite youtuber is alive. Thanks man
Really did Hugs dirty there
goddamn i miss big IRL tournies
Such high quality videos
Great vid here for algorithm
quality king do your thing
I miss pro melee so bad, cant wait for it to come back in its "in person" format
ikr
does anybody know what happened with that weird mango set where the tv glitched or something? I never understood what happened there.
I had a watching party for 2017 and I am a big Chu fan I popped up off so hard and screamed with the homies in happiness, then after the commercials the set was being replayed, that shit broke me
Chudat should've been given a game win in exchange for Leffen getting unfair information on stage picks/counterpicks.
Or they shouldve honestly just replayed game 1 on the same stage
Prologues the section on UCF by showing snapback, an controller issue that's not resolved by UCF lmao
if yall aren't subbed to this channel yet you're making a mistake
What's the remix at 3:17?
Imo 2020 should be replayed they forgot to turn off items
DUDE THIS IS SO WELL MADE HOLY FUCK
Nice essay Bro. This was an epic video.
Me in the couch in the back be like 4:11
4:01 someone who has clearly watched too much fucking DBZ
the quality of these videos😳😳
Uh did you know that Schnitzel was going to be a playable character in Cartoon Network Punch Time Explosion XL but was scapped due to time?
I can't really compare this situation to PTE.
Saw the title and immediately had flashbacks to watching this set live. Always loved Chu and it hurt so much
@turndownforwalt you've done it again my dude. Please tell me you make movies for a living - you're a talented guy.
I would love to be doing that, but I’m actually an engineer full-time LOL
I didn't realize just how much this upset Chudat. I mean it definitely makes sense but half the people defending Leffen acted like it was completely voluntary on the former's part.
Also it was really funny how in Losers Semis everyone was cheering for M2K despite him having his own controversy. It was a brutal crowd too, like they were going off. Goes to show how pissed people got about this. I think if anything the moral of the story is to not fuck up your settings.
Thank you for this video, great job, sub earned.
Much appreciated!
I know you do melee content, but it would be really cool to do a video on Leo v.s. Tweek at EVO 2019
I've never been this salty about a set. Was a huge Chu fan during this set, and literally everything about this decision pissed me off. Yeah the controller wasn't as good, but he was clearly able to play. It isn't Peach vs Marth where Peach literally dies for missing dashback. So the pros for Chu in the first set are not nearly as much as the pros Leffen had the 2nd set, a crapton of data. And you could see Chu's frustration, he usually misses some wobbles but he missed so many more. UGH
but at the same time, a character like fox requires much higher and more precise inputs, and missing those inputs vs an ice climber can lead to you losing a stock at 0% since Icies have the strongest punish option in the entire game.
And not only that, from what I heard, Leffen didnt use his normal controller for this event. He used a different controller because it was on UCF. This means his controller was worse than what he NORMALLY uses for vanilla melee, which means he was at a major handicap. He trusted that every set would be played in UCF and so was able to bring an inferior controller and still compete at the max level. The fact that that wasnt the case means his controller was actively working against him and causing miss inputs more so than someone using their normal controller.
And if you think that isnt a big deal, pros have LITERALLY canceled going to super majors because their high quality controllers broke. Its that big of a deal. Thats the ENTIRE reason why UCF was created to begin with.
I think its a good standard the set was replayed. Unfortunately it fucking sucks but if some other rules were changed like setting the damage multipler to 1.5, or having a 3 minute timer they would of course replay it. They weren't playing the exact game the tournament ruleset provided so it doesn't matter if it affected the games outcome or not. IMO
The Boston Screwjob is what I like to call this.
I like this name.
@@TakumiJoyconBoyz
And what a coincidence it happened nearly 20 years after the Montreal Screwjob.
I, too, believe Chu had a good shot at beating Mew2King at this event. Tough scenario.
im not a competitive melee fan but man are the documentaries interesting
Glad to hear that!
Remember watching this live i was so hype when chu won, most heartbreaking set ive seen lol
Hi, how doyou make the thumbnails' art style?
They did chu dat dirty bro. He won it the first time.
The tournament had rules and those were not followed. No player got punished more or less than the other. I think this is fair.
@@AtomicMonkeybutt they should have done 3 sets to make it even
@@egocentricblack3278 Then they would have 1 invalid set and 2 valid ones. It would be fair for Chudat, but not for Leffen, so idk
@@AtomicMonkeybutt how would it be unfair for leffen? Chu dat was affected by it too.
@@egocentricblack3278 Because Leffen won the second, and also first valid, set. Chudat lost, but giving them another set would give Chu another shot.