I have an enchantress deck that used to run 0 artifacts. One game, another player cast a spell that let them look through another player's deck and steal an artifact. They chose me. I cackled for days afterward.
My enchantress deck plays no artifacts, although I do concede that deck would be better if I had it and excluding it is entirely for thematic reasons. Anyway, I had someone look through my deck after a game recently and he simply could not wrap his head around it.
My shrines deck does run Expedition Map as a nonbasic search in the absence of fetch lands, as well as a few of the artifact duals. This is explicitly to make it easier to proc Happily Ever After, since I'm not allowed Coalition Victory and it's Coalition Victory at home.
My definition of an auto include is something you have to actively choose not to put in a deck. Sol ring is a choice your making to remove it, not to add it. Very few cards can hold a candle to that.
That's fine, but your own definition implies that the deck you are including the card into matters. So although sol ring would be an auto include in most decks it is not always an auto include. In the case of Animar i would consider Ancestral Statue an auto include but not sol ring.
Yea I agree, its like when you going to make any deck, you know how many land it is gonna be by default. And then you just add/subtract it or replace it with something else. That just mean the lands are auto include. Why would you think hard to put it or not. We put it first and then think. Just like Sol Ring, many of use think why NOT to inlcude it but not many who thinks the other way around.
Exactly what i was thinking. For the purpose of optimization, youd need a good reason NOT to put it in. It doesn’t actually mean you literally are only looking for 98 cards from the start.
I wonder how much Pauper Commander impacts this statistic. Since it’s never received a common printing, Sol Ring won’t appear in the thousands of PDH decks the EDHrec is probably pulling from.
I personally want to make my decks less same-y. I only put it in whenever I play a color combination that lacks good ramp of its own and/or if im playing an artifact deck
I'm in this same bucket. I just really love playing cards that I find neat or interesting, cards that synergize with my deck, and -most importantly- fit whatever theme I'm going for. I gotta make sure I put in my ramp package, but if there are other more fun or interesting options, I'm gonna play them over the same ol' Sol Ring. I'd rather play something cool like a Carpet of Flowers in my enchantress deck, copyable/recursive rituals in my spellslinger deck, or a treasure-maker or artifact-theft card in a pirate tribal deck. Sol Ring might be the stronger option, but I'm not building explicitly for power. I'm building for those VIBES, baybee, and Sol Ring often gets in the way.
Commander is a format that allows for deck creativity in a way that you just don't see in other formats. Sol Ring is absolutely a great card, but it is one of those cards that just feels kinda "paint by numbers" when you look at it while deckbuilding. It gives no "Ok, where are they going with this" feeling when I see it hit the table, it is just a simple efficient tool. And that is fine, every deck needs some efficient cards, personally I would rather play a less efficient mana source with some synergistic upside further down the road.
The problem is that all ring is just so efficient that it’s almost impossible to find a card with enough synergy to actually make it worth while. People who I know who don’t play have usually house banned it which isn’t a bad idea if you don’t like the card.
Oh...you mean like how a large number of Commander decks are pretty much virtually the same? I play several pods a week, many with different players. I see the same decks, Commanders, and/or strategies consistently. It is very rare I see a creatively built deck.
@@architectofdreams73 I don't play commander much irl but on arena I always see the same infinite combos and 5 color pile of best cards game after game. There really isn't any creativity in the format, everyone tries too hard
@@architectofdreams73 Sorry to hear that, my experience has been completely the opposite. Maybe this depends on how powerful the meta you play in is, my groups tend to be on the more casual side. I think as you lean towards more and more competitive groups, the pool of "viable" Commanders and Cards shrinks. Maybe try to be the one to make a change and perhaps others will follow suite. But good luck with that.
Super interesting data dive, Joey! I personally dropped Sol Ring from most of my decks because it swings games too much. Sol Ring in the first 3 turns just catapults you so far ahead.
Doesn't every good start swing a game in that players favor? You can blame it on a single card like Sol Ring and ban it from your table, but then the green player plays a bunch of dorks and "the artifact guy" can't keep up with his mind stones cause sol ring isnt there and another guy is just randomly mana screwed. Yes, an early Sol Ring can decide a game, potentially. But so can any other good start (or bad luck).
@@olah420 but the point was, that since every card sits at a different "power level" there will always be that one card that's the strongest. No matter how many cards you ban. Oh and let's not forget that you could also blame it on the other cards being too weak. It works both ways. And Sol Ring isnt even the best rock. Arguably not the 2. or 3. best either. So it's not necessarily better than the alternatives.
@@w4tch0ut10 I don't agree with your logic on this. It feels like a slippery slope argument. If you could stack up literally every ramp in the game in a line and each one was 10% better than the previous I would agree with the "no matter how many you ban" argument, because you just work down the chain until there's nothing left. However, the reality is that a vast majority of the payable ramp cards are at a pretty even competitiveness level (2 mana rocks, wayfarer's bauble, llanowar elf, knight of the white orchid, etc, etc, etc). Then there's Sol Ring, and suddenly everything else is pretty crappy in comparison. I see your point about Sol Ring not being the best rock/ramp and I agree; which is why I also don't play those ramp sources either unless I'm playing a competitive game. Sol ring and higher leads to unfun non-games in my experience.
To throw my 2 cents into the conversation, I use EDHREC to have a digital catalog of my Physical Decks, which is about 12. I don't own 12 copies of Sol Ring (No matter how much I want to) I don't use Online Card Sellers so I only Buy from Local Game Stores, and they are frequently our of Stock for Sol Ring.
low colorless pip count is legit. I forget which deck it was in particular, but I remember finding that I couldn't really make good use of the ring in some decks when the main deck just didn't have a lot of colorless in it's costs.
@@moedark4390 spend one mana to get back a colorless seems like reversed colorfixing to me. At least with Signet, while it costs 2, you can turn a Mana Crypt into a color of choice (and I wouldn't run Signet in most of my decks)
@@bestaround3323 but the downside of that mana being colorless can't be overstated. In decks with lower color intensity it might still be fine ramp, but idk. Definitely would turn it from probably 3. or 4. best rock to fringe
The funny thing about sol ring is also that the power level affects sol ring's impact so much. In casual, drawing your sol ring t1 can warp the game, whereas in a pod also running mana crypt, jeweled lotus, etc, the two mana boost is practically business as usual.
I usually sandbag sol ring even if I have it in hand turn one. I don't need to come out that far ahead turn 1. Especially if there's no follow up that same turn.
My reasons are entirely power level based. I just didn’t like the feeling of opening sol ring and winning due to my early leads. Granted, my experience is mostly 2 or 3 player with the same handful of casual players, so my decks are tuned accordingly. When I built for higher-power (and consistently multiplayer) metas, I definitely was throwing it in everything. Definitely appreciate the mindful strategic analysis here that even I never really considered.
I think it would be very interesting for you guys to discuss how the game dynamics change when playing in a game of 3 or 5 players. It's something that comes up very often in normal playgroups. I think sol ring in a three player creates very bad game experience for example.
I really don't like playing against and with sol ring. Often when a player draws sol ring they become the arch enemy or put them so far ahead that it is hard for everyone else to catch up. Most people don't play cards like mana crypt for a reason, even if money isn't an issue. I tend to play lower power games and it tends to dominate said low power games. Which is why, unless it's on theme, I tend to cut it from all of my decks, only 1 of my 20-ish decks having it at the moment.
I think the problem is.. even if you draw it turn 1. You don't have to play it turn 1 specifically to avoid this situation. You are always +1 mana after using it. So best to save till you using it won't pain a target on your back.
You bring up so good points not to use Sol Ring using mana colored spells. Our group always use Sol Ring in our decks. Wouldn't it make sense to use Sol Ring because each time your Commander goes back into the Command Zone, it cost two additional mana each time you bring your Commander out. Thanks for the video Joey.
Straight up, I just don't play sol ring if a deck is meant for purely casual play. Like sure, if you're playing a powerful deck that aims to win and everyone is playing that way, then sure, I'll play one of my decks with it in it. But otherwise, I'll just replace sol ring for a 2 mana rock bc that's the type of ramp that is most common. Plus, helps with not becoming archenemy right away at the start of the game 😉
My decks are power level 5, even with the sol ring lol. I especially need the mana for my WUBRG Jodah, the unifier deck. It mostly has tap lands, so I need the accelerent. It is also mainly me tossing most of my legendary creatures together to have a decent time. I will hopefully get more time to workshop it today
@W4tch0ut There is a difference between trying your hardest to win during deck construction and during play. If you always try to be meta, then you end up with something like CDH, which takes 3 turns and 90 minutes, and has the same 10 decks. Which is fun for some people, but definitely not what I play commander for.
wonderful video as always Joey!!! i personally don’t put Sol Ring in many of my casual low MV commander decks just on the basis of owning a lot of EDH decks, and i want to look at different pieces of cardboard. giving more niche ramp pieces or synergies a spotlight just makes me enjoy the game a little more.
I spend a lot of time tuning my lists, more so than my playgroup and as a result my decks are noticeably more synergistic. In order to keep myself from stomping my friends every game, I've cut a lot of powerful staples, Sol Ring included.
I played a game with some friends over the weekend, one of whom was brand new to the format, and it was intended to be a "opportunity to learn your deck" kinda game... I gambled on a 2-land hand with card draw and rocks in my Alibou deck, which IMO is the clunkiest and weakest of my decks... but the hand had a sol ring in it. It immediately threw me way ahead of my friends in a way that my deck does NOT normally do. On turn 4 I realised I would likely be able to get both casts of an Approach Of The Second Sun off before the end of my next turn. I sighed - a turn 5 win against a brand new player was not what I or anyone wanted. After checking with the group, I played it out - we prefer to do our sandbagging during deckbuilding, not during play - and yeah. The game was over within 10 minutes. All because the speed of sol ring meant I could pop off before my friends had a reasonable chance of doing the same :/ The experience has made me much more skeptical of giving it leeway that other fast mana rocks don't get. If I knew people around me were also interested in cutting their fast mana, I'd be happy to reenact LOTR's Mt Doom scene...
A year ago I got into a new playgroup and they told me that they had banned Sol Ring. I wasn't thrilled at first but after playing with them for over a year now, it does make for better games in general, in comparison to my other playgroup that does play it. There are many variables that lead to the better game experience, but honestly I don't miss it at all. Took it out of all of my decks.
Our play group decided not to include fast mana like Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus etc. and this includes Sol Ring. If you think about it the only difference conceptually between Sol Ring and Mana Crypt is a lot of money because Wizard decided to continuously print the card in comparison to the other card. The card is that over powered that it’s hard to find the next best card in the line. Compare it to Worn Powerstone which costs 2cmc more and enters tapped.
I think a lot of these can go either way. You can argue that ring is great regardless and put it in, or argue that some other option is more synergistic. I think both are probably correct, but the question of which is more fun to play/what you want to use that slot for is what it comes down to
I think the one deck I have that I seriously considered cutting Sol Ring was my Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief deck since I was going with an aura enchantress theme to it. I still have it in the list as one of only 2 artifacts but I don't think I'd really miss it were I to actually cut it (except for missing the Pride secret lair art)
I recently made a list for the new Thalia and The Gitrog Monster and after testing decided to remove Sol-Ring. I found that due to the high land count, land based ramp, and color pips in the commanders mana cost, Sol-Ring didnt work as well as I thought it would.
I was kind of thinking the same thing after testing out a list a bit. I think the only other mana rock I ended up with was Arcane Signet, so I am thinking maybe Ouphe or Null Rod might be worth a shot in the list. I usually only play against my kids so I keep my lists relatively low power, but I like to humble them every once in a while.
@stevenluoma1268 Uhh Phyrexian Tower, Ancient Tomb, Temple of the False God, and Cabal Coffers + mana doubling effects or Crucible of Worlds effects to replay sacc'd lands. When you have all that AND absurd ramp, what's the point in a Sol Ring.
@Steven Luoma this isn't accurate. Lands cannot be countered. Sol Ring can. While I agree Sol Ring paying for commander tax is a thing, it doesn't belong in many land ramp based decks.
@@numnut154 I think _any_ deck that plays Temple and not Ring would have a higher win percentage with Ring and not Temple. Temple is notoriously a win more card, whereas sol ring is good at all stages of the game, but especially strong at giving you early leads, which is the most important way to win the game. (Ramp is nonlinear, so having Ring early is far better than having Temple late, even with all the "downsides" Ring has.) Like, you could quibble over Tomb vs Ring, but Ring is probably better. It's probably better than Tower. It's better than Crucible in like >90% of scenarios. Is it better than Coffers? Depends on the deck. But Temple _in particular_ is a horrible card that nobody should run in their deck, and anyone doing so should both: A: be embarrassed, B: switch it out for a sol ring.
I remember a playgroup I used to play with that wanted to ban fast mana and sol rings. A month in we saw a huge swing to green decks and my Darien deck sat on the shelf due to not being able to catch up before they went off. We actually saw less variation of decks when fast mana went away.
That's interesting. Was green fast mana like burgeoning banned as well? I personally don't feel like there's a big difference between a nature's lore and an arcane signet for example. EDH is so interesting. At the highest levels, green is probably the worst color, but at casual tables it's the best.
Eliminating fast mana unequivocally advantages base-Green decks. When I play one of my Mono Green decks at a table where there’s nothing but Sol Ring and Arcane Signet for ramp aside from me, then barring a T1 Sol Ring or lucky double-ritual opener to facilitate a 5 mana Infinite, I give my base odds of winning considerably higher than 50%. There’s just too many ways I’m at double or more available persistent mana by the T3 untap at latest. If I do get run down without ramp, it’s again cheap ritual-paid infinites in a pile with a bunch of cheap Tutors, or (not the euphemistic way people use the term) near-cEDH Aggro. There are decks I think can get inappropriate for certain power levels with absolutely all the fast mana artifacts that’d be optimal for said deck, but by and large I support fast mana because it keeps the Green Is Unfair In Casual vibe to a low roar.
Great video and insight, thank you! I've recently started not Auto including it in my decks with the intention being to evaluate the ramp after the main strategy has been established. Additionally, to lessen usage of sol ring, a person in my playgroup recently made the comment that adding more draw should be weighed higher than ramp so I'm currently testing that notion out. 🤔
It's still an auto include in my initial brews (purely as buffer for commander tax, if nothing else) despite having 2 decks that don't run it/run better without it. I personally hate the card and the variance it brings to games and would never begrudge people who avoid it or or groups that outright ban it =D
I play Sol Ring now, but when I first started, I was a lot more strict about budget and the ring was a bit more expensive than I felt was justifiable (I tried to keep each card under $2 and it was over $3). Some of my decks still don't have it since I haven't bothered to 'upgrade' that specific card
It also makes you a huge target. If you play it, it can absolutely cause the entire board to focus you down. Also it being so common insures that people will frequently bring counterplay
No kidding. I have personally started packing more Brotherhood's End and Hidetsugu Devours All to deal with Treasures and other tokens but doing so also hits Sol Ring
@@jadegrace1312 yea im very new but from what i feel it's like "okay i'll keep an eye on that" and it typically doesn't end up mattering a ton even if it's turn one sol ring stuff like mystic remora, rhystic study, esper sentinel are much more of a big deal in the early game from what i've seen
if somebody has a by force, or a removal spell that targets multiple artifacts and they don't have a different target, they're more likely to hit your sol ring than they were to hit your worn powerstone
I think another small point that was never brought up was that online not everyone makes decks that are finished and complete or that have been played. They might start making a deck but abandon it half way and the system does not account for decks that are not trying to win. So I would say there is a small percentage of decks on edhrec that are simply waste stats.
I use Sol Ring in decks where it actively helps me ramp into a commander but not in decks where the commander isn't part of the engine or expensive enough to warrant using it like a mini ritual effect.
@@mr.joesterr5359 I'm aware, but I use whether or not turn 1 sol ring into turn 2 something essential to my deck's strategy vs. something beneficial but not essential as a metric for whether or not I should put sol ring into my deck.
I don't run Sol Ring in my Sigarda, Host of Herons Voltron deck because I do have quite a few artifact hate in the deck. As an enchantress, she draws and ramps me decently being in green. If others depend on their rings and artifacts and I can shut those down, I am repelled forward even further! I also have Serra's Sanctum in the deck so I am usually good on making a lot of mana. I was on the fence about running it in Hamza, Guardian of Arashin, but I am keeping it there. The cost reduction is on colorless mana, but it is nice being able to cast creatures prior to Hamza coming down, or casting instant and sorceries that ramp or protect.
I’m a little late to the party, but I chose to remove Sol ring from my Ezuri, Stalker of Spheres deck in favor of other mana rocks. I started out with the Sol Ring, but it was very quickly replaced by normally worse mana rocks such as astral cornucopia and everflowing chalice. Part of the problem was that even with a turn 1 Sol Ring, it simply doesn’t move with the engine and often felt like dead weight on the field. Worse still was that drawing it after the first 3 turns felt like a waste as there was usually other cards that were taking priority to cast and added mana simply wasn’t worth casting as it wasn’t impacting the board state any longer. This is anecdotal, but smoothing out the draw engine was more important in this case than the extra mana early. It’s important to consider whether a card is truly moving the deck forward or not at all points.
My problem with sol ring has always been what I like to call the "donning the target mask" problem. Whoever gets a turn 1 sol ring is likely to be the first person to suffer at the hands of an opponent, be it a 1/1 creature, a burn spell, or removal. My one aggressive deck, Winota (aka Spin to Winota) runs it, but I often have to put some thought into whether it's worth that risk in other decks. I like to actually establish a board state before I get punched, personally. I usually prioritize putting Hans/Sad Robot in over a sol ring. It may not tap for mana, but it's ramp, card draw, AND HAS LEGS.
I've built most of my decks through dumpster diving through some LGSs and friend's bulk lists, and at a time if I had about 10 of my local currency, I'd rather spend on a couple of key pieces for my decks (which were usually green, and therefore easier to subsidize its lack). The one Sol ring I've got now is in my Tianna deck that is very color intensive, but also very reliant on her to be out, so any help is welcome.
My most recent deck to omit Sol Ring was helmed by Maelstrom Wanderer. I decided to use absolutely no one-drops or two-drops in this deck, so that they couldn't get in the way of cascading into Hypergenesis. In the past, I've also sometimes build decks without Sol Ring to keep them within a specific budget.
Interesting, I doubt my Animar deck compares to a CDH version but I do use Sol Ring in it because of some colorless creatures I use as well as powering up my X cost creatures. Also helps with casting some of my enchantments, though I do experience a bit of frustration when it's time to cast creatures and my arcane signet ends up being more useful most of the time. When people say that frustration isn't a good enough reason to exclude it, you have to keep in mind that being stuck with the wrong mana just one or two times is often a game ender at higher levels of play and may get removed because the extra speed sometimes doesn't make up for being inconsistent.
I have an Omnath, Locus of Rage deck with 60 Lands and no Sol Ring. My Goal was to have a functioning and very strong deck with as many Lands as I could cram in there. It is also my most expensive deck and it is really fun to play.
I have removed all "fast mana" and downgraded Sol Rings to Sol Talismans. And now I am removing Sol Talismans. I like playing higher power decks and I mitigate that by not using any form of fast mana. I like my decks to have actual weaknesses to encourage more dramatic play experiences.
I dig this. When my deck punches, I want the other decks to be able to punch back. I don’t want to win because I punched so much faster than everyone else (unless I’m playing an aggro deck, in which case it’s a different kind of punch).
I started a personal rule in *most* of my decks to only run cards that are modern legal. It takes out many of the power crept cards printed specifically for EDH, as well as removing the possibility to play the somewhat contentious Reserve List cards. The benefit overall that I've seen from it is that it opened up many new slots in my deck from removing several staples to allow for more diversity in choices, which imo makes them more interesting to play with and against
I think one non-thematic consideration you didn't mention might be in a deck or a group meta where artefact hate is prevalent. Sol Ring probably isn't worth it if things like stony silence or vandalblasts and farewells are extra common.
Great Video! Tuvasa player here and I absolutely agree, between her color intensive casting cost, and the cheapness of most enchantments I am running, Sol Ring actually ends up slowing her down.
Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus and low mana tutors are the only cards we banned in my playgroup, and honestly we regret nothing, makes the decks and matches much more unique and entertaining. The fast mana those artifacts give sometimes make the match spiral out of control and just un-fun or it turns into an Arch Enemy match.
Simple reason for me: I never bought a Precon and since only bought one Sol Ring and never wanted to buy several copies. Therefore, I only have it in my most optimized decks and my other five decks have to do without one
Sol Ring and similar cards were fine 10 years ago, when the base power level of cards was pretty low but, nowadays it is very easy to to gain a huge advantage with 2 extra mana on the first turns.
To me it just depends on the type of deck I want to build. If it’s a fast deck or something that I want to make compete but not at a level like that. If I’m going for a chill deck, especially if it’s a different commander, I choose not to simply for variety
I’m on the verge of taking Sol Ring out of everything I play, and it may be for dumb reasons, but I’m probably going to stick with them. There’s a six percent chance to hit it in your opener, and until your fiftieth draw you have a 2% chance onto hit it. Early game, it draws more heat than I am usually setup to take. Mid game, I’m trying to stabilize and get my closers out, I either need it in play already or I want to draw something else. Late game, I need something other than acceleration almost universally and it has always felt like a dead draw. It’s just always a bad vibe to me. In the opener? “Wellp, I’m the target now” bad vibes. Draw it mid game? “I really need my engine pieces, I wish I had this sooner” bad vibes. Late game? “I really needed my removal or some kind of draw right now” bad vibes. But it changes entirely when it’s on board already. Early game ring? “Thank the Magic gods I have the mana for this wipe” mid games. Late game? “Time for the combo pain”. Then there’s the table dynamics. One person has one? Well, that persons the threat until it’s gone. Two people? Well, now there’s two people behind while half the table throws hay makers. Three people? Well, someone’s getting dunked on or ignored for having a normal game and doesn’t get to feel relevant. None of those are scenarios that I personally feel are what people’s decks showed up to do. I get the power of a Sol Ring. I have it in everything right now. But it just never passes the vibe check for “what’s gonna be the most fun right now”. I know that’s short sighted, but to me I don’t play commander to win. I play to hang out, have stories about this one time someone did something stupid crazy. And just like that, to do the stupid crazy, you probably need a Sol Ring to do it. So I’m obviously conflicted.
Back in 2011 my friends and I agreed to ban Sol Ring from our decks. We felt it ruined too many games if someone got it turn one. Though my friends have quit playing since then I still don’t play Sol Ring.
I personally have two examples at the moment. One is straightforward. I built a Sithis deck (which I love) where I decided that every nonland card would be an enchantment (literally every one). Since that was a deckbuilding requirement, easy answer. The second one I think is slightly more interesting. I have an Eriette of the charmed Apple deck (which I also love). It is a deck that I have officially named Aurazhov, but also refer to as "we've got goad at home". The deck is basically a very slow deck where I enchant my opponent's biggest or more dangerous threats with beneficial auras so that they can can keep on swinging with a bit of a buff, just not my direction. Then I use my commander's effect (and a few similar effects) to drain my opponent's while they hit each other. I think the biggest strength of Sol Ring, and why it is such an incredibly powerful card, is the potential for that crazy early play where you turn one or two a Sol Ring and then play out your commander early or have another explosive play. My Eriette deck does not have big explosive plays, just a slow, grindy playstyle. At best if I turn one a sol ring (which is very rare statistically) I can get my commander out one turn early, which usually doesn't matter that much, since early in the game, I usually don't have enemy creatures I want to enchant. Ultimately, I just think it doesn't provide much benefit to the deck, and I would rather play other cards, such as another aura, or protection piece, or piece of draw (STILL haven't gotten around to picking up Ashiok's Reaper, Hateful Eidolan, and Kor Spiritdancer yet).
Outside of it being a wasted slot in my landfall deck, I don't really play it and colorless mana rocks much anymore due to how much I've smoothed out the mana curve. The decks care more about getting the right colors rather than huge colorless mana.
I tend to not use Sol Ring in my decks for a reason that my playgroups end up just agreeing to disagree with. Most people want to have that mana out early and so they put in rocks like Sol Ring or Jeweled Lotus expecting it on turn 1-3. My rebuttal is this: In a casual game where you're having fun with friends at a table, would you like to draw a Sol Ring turn 4-8, or a synergy card?
This was awesome! It's incredibly interesting to listen to what sound like some valid reason not to run a SR and then to still see that over 50% of people are still including it. It just leaves me wondering what is the percentage of people who included a SR because of its fame and hype? I wonder how low the percentages could go or if the 50+% of people running it in some of the decks mentioned would miss it if they cut it? It's in my prosper deck but on games where I don't pull it I don't miss it or at least I don't think I do.
I have started playing less and less sol ring in decks for power level. Yes it's legal and good but I don't enjoy games where I am too ahead of my opponents. I will sometimes choose to mulligan if it's in my opening hand Edit: honestly I play less and less traditional ramp cards these days in general. Slow mana rocks don't get you very far in 2023. There is so much accidental removal that it sometimes only give you a temporary boost of mana
The pips can play a huge role depending on how central the commander is to your strategy. In animar for example, his ability is central to the deck so cutting any ramp that can't help cast him as early means you are eliminating dead cards from t1-t3 plays edit:shouldve watched the rest before commenting
I only recently started taking sol ring out of some decks. It was a conscious decision as I realized the colorless mana wasn't doing what I needed. Other ramp pieces worked better.
@@w.s6124 Well in a deck that doesn't use colorless mana much or is focused heavily on creatures, sol ring often doesn't do a lot. In my Jarad deck, I swapped out all of my rocks for mana dorks and land ramp. It synergizes better with my other pieces. In another deck, I hate on artifacts heavily and punish cheap ramp, I don't have it in that deck either. I do still have it in most decks though. Essentially, if Sol ring is a nonbo or doesn't get my commander/key pieces out faster, I try and find a better option synergistically.
@@ozzwich i think even in jarad solring is still one of the best ramp cards enven if theres no sinergy. But i could be wrong never playd with him as a commander just from my general experience with creature decks
It’s a bit hard to explain in UA-cam comments, but essentially it is a combination of the reasons listed in this video. Deck relies heavily on black or green pip cost things, creature ramp to go with creature synergies ect. I had too many games were soo ring just did nothing, even on turn 1 or 2.
I made a feather the redeemed decklist recently and it's the first time I've considered cutting sol ring from the list in a commander deck. It's not just the commander herself costing 3 color pips, the deck as a whole is extremely pip heavy to the point where I feel as though mid-game treasure token generators like storm-kiln artist or smothering tithe are a lot more useful. I still ended up keeping sol ring in the end though because my list has more equipments than average, but I can definitely see myself mulliganing starting hands even if they contain a sol ring.
Don't forget rule 0. I've been in some playgroups that have Sol Ring banned because it ended up being the deciding factor of a game and that isn't always appreciated in some circles.
As mentioned in the video, Jarad Golgari Lich Lord is my deck I took sol ring out of. I have a lot of cards that care about creatures in GY like boneyard wurm or spider spawning. Overall I have 52 creatures and only one non-creature artifact (witchbane orb for GY protection). Sol ring in the bin doesnt +1/+1 my creatures or get hit on a living death
I have a couple of decks that don't run Sol Ring. Some of those indeed fall into the pip heavy requirements (with indeed Johda being an example). The more interesting reason are my three intentionally low-powered decks, where including Sol Ring would make the deck better but it would be against the purpose the deck was optimised for. Not every deck is optimized to be powerful, some decks are optimized for a gamestyle where that kind of acceleration would be disruptive. But we also have the rule where mana positive ramp costs at least 3 in the first three rounds (which is where Sol Ring really shines).
For me it always start with a sol ring and arcane signet in my list, BUT if I’m getting close to finishing the list and have a card or two that I REALLY want to play in the deck but just can’t find room for, they are the first cards to come out
I agree that personally I want flavour in my Commander decks, but also I try to use cards only once amongst my decks so I will use sol ring in a masterpiece deck I dream of making 😇. But I prefer style over substance in commander
One of my oldest decks is a Grixis vampire deck. It used to be headed by Garza Zol, but I switched to Evelyn, the Covetous awhile back. Neither version has ever included a Sol Ring for thematic reasons, namely that vampires traditionally avoid the sun. I later built an Edgar Markov deck and it has Sol Ring because it includes a bunch of the Ixalan vamps who aren’t as sun-avoidant as many vamps, but the Grixis one will never run it because I prefer it that way. It is very heavily vamp themed even beyond being heavily tribal.
I like replacing some very popular good cards like sol ring with some group hugish ramp or draw cards that can help someone who may be having a rough start to a game. If I'm in green my go to us avatar of growth, if I am in white I like cards like cut a deal or flumph, and if I am in red I like Descend into Avernus. Those cards can spark joy which I appreciate because sometimes people get stuck with just the lands they started with and the complaining can really bring the mood down for the table. The nice thing about having these types of cards in your deck is that you can always choose not to play them if the situation is inappropriate (like if some one brings a cEDH deck to FNM, I am not going to help that person get ramp/draw since their deck is more efficient than mine), however those situations are rarer than if you get a sol ring early and the hostility of the table is pointed at you for being lucky enough to get such a powerful temporary ramp source.
All three of my green decks (Lathril, Sythis, and Imoti) don’t play Sol Ring for reasons all mentioned in this video - caring about Elves, being enchantress, and wanting to cascade + having a Keruga companion - respectively.
My favorite deck is my Rhys the redeemed elf / token synergy deck. Sol ring doesn’t help me cast my commander and I almost never have a mana problem due to the elves. After all of this sol ring is still one of the best cards in my deck. The only deck I’ve ever built that hasn’t had a sol ring was a Garth one eye / Jegantha companion ( WUBRG tribal) deck.
My play group has Sol ring banned because any card that is so good that it must be included in nearly every deck decreases creativity in deckbuilding and diversity in gameplay.
I have a lot of reps over several years now with my Ramos, Dragon Engine deck. I have reasons to not play it, but they are subjective and/or dependant on specific playgroups. 1. It doesn't trigger Ramos if drawn after he's in play. 2. The deck wants me to play 3-5 ramp spells in the opening turns before casting Ramos. If I cast him on turn 3 which is much easier with a Mana Crypt or Sol Ring, he'll get removed or countered and I'm back to square one having wasted 6 mana. Whereas, if I spend my first four turns casting ramp, by the time I cast Ramos, some of the table's opening-hand interaction will have already been used up. Or, I have accesss to 8-9 mana now which means I can cast him with protection. 3. It's "memey". I enjoy having these discussions with people in the game whenever it comes up. "This deck doesn't play Sol Ring" is an interesting conversation starter and challenges some pretty strong assumptions people have made. I don't care if they're right, I have limited the number of colorless spells in the deck to two: Greaves and Orrery, and even then I'm frequently testing for replacements to Greaves. Now that I think about it, maybe Orrery could be replaced with a tutor for Leyline of Anticipation.😮
A lot of tables ban sol ring because it is simply overpowered so even in low power decks if someone gets it even by turn 3 is super good and way to strong
I have a Child of Alara lands deck. Sol Ring doesn't help get lands from my hand into play or get lands out of my deck or interact with Child. It can help me cast a more expensive ramp card, but it's usually not in play for longer than a turn or two before Child needs to clear the board for me. It also doesn't help cast child. When I'm playing this deck, I'm rarely thinking "I need more mana" I'm always thinking "I need more cards"
I play a lot of 5 color decks and some factors I take into consideration when I think about adding or cutting Sol Ring is 1) what is my commanders cost, 2) how necessary is my commander to my strategy and 3) do I need a lot of generic mana to cast my game winning cards. For instance my Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck needs a lot of specific colors and needs to get him out as quickly as possible so I didn't add Sol Ring to it since I needed to focus on getting colors on the field whereas my Jenson Carthalion/Lurrus deck is an Ad Naus deck so I need Sol Ring to help me potentially get a turn 2 Naus. You can add Sol Ring into any deck and it be helpful but the degree to which it helps will vary with power level and playstyles
I was there! I answered the tweet! 😅 Sometimes one just has more decks than copies of Sol Ring.
Рік тому+1
I'm in the situation where I just don't want a sol ring in my deck when I have any valid reason to do so. Most of the time when I build a deck, I'm getting to more than a 100 cards and cutting Sol Ring, a card I already have in many decks has become easier than ever. Sure, it's powerful, but any synergistic card alligned with the theme of the deck will please me more to play then a mana rock (and most of the time, I would rather play a land than play a sol ring, especially in commander). _ And on the topic of not running sol ring in a green deck, in my opinion it really depends on how color heavy your deck is (as in your mana costs) and how many colors you have besides green. The green mana ramp package is a very strong tool that can be extremely reliable until you reach the fourth color, where fetches become more interesting to fix your mana. I would never run a Sol Ring in a mono green deck, but I might in a two or three colored one. For four and five colored deck... fixing becomes an issue, and I would rather play a chromatic lantern than a sol ring any day of the week to avoid having to think about tapping my mana right.
I go back and forth with running Sol Ring in my Spellslinger deck since it wants to run a lot of cost reduction and low-cost Instants and Sorceries with an emphasis on colored mana pips, which I can cover with ritual effects if necessary. The one big reason I keep Sol Ring in my Veyran deck is because it uses an Isocron Scepter and Dramatic Reversal, so it's just a hyper-efficient way to generate infinite mana of any color between it an an Izzet Signet and/or power the handful of more expensive haymakers I use to end the game, otherwise I would probably cut it.
As the creator of the cEDH Sythis deck, don't run Sol Ring in Enchantress. You want to be able to burn through your entire deck and recycle the cards you don't use off of Wheel of Sun and Moon. (Which is also an enchantment) Sol Ring just makes sure that you do NOT keep your chain going. The entire deck does everything it wants to do without Sol Ring. Honestly, the deck can out ramp Sol Ring in the early game anyway. As far as casual, I have a few decks that don't run Sol Ring in casual. Why? Because I'm in green. Because I don't have extra Sol Rings. Because I want to play a fair game with my friends. Because its so hard to find a slot in the deck for a SOL RING. Even cutting a land for Sol Ring is just... BAD in the deck. When I can Shaman of Forgotten Ways or Lukka, Bound to Ruin why do I need Sol Ring?
The first deck I took sol ring out of was my smart omnath deck, after that I started taking it out of my 3+ color decks, I don't normally miss it at all. And one sided games happen far less often too.
My LGS regulars made a pact we would trim it and mana crypt from our Commander Decks. We kind of all agreed that it wasn't much fun when 1 or 2 people hit and just get off to a crazy head start. Commander Decks seem so quick to pop off these days even without either, and it really sucks "losing" because you didn't hit your Sol/Crypt and one guy at the table hit one, or both. Its made our games much more um...balanced or level, and weve seen an uptick in people trying more variety of commander piles because they don't have to fear being out of the game after a couple turn missing these cards. Online in MTG Arena however for Brawl/Historic Brawl (or, Commander Lite) I put that shit on everything, even at its worst it still covers the first increase to commander cost for 1 mana. Which is decent enough to be included in piles where you have Commanders (that don't prevent its cast/usage). Like in the Arena its all about being as degenerate as possible, and Sol Ring is a stud when it comes to being a degenerate, especially when you are going full out and running paradox engine piles like an absolute sociopath.
I'm glad you mentioned sidisi, I play her and don't use sol ring or many other noncresture staples. Also I am just a conscientious objector to sol ring 😅
I don't have a Sol Ring in my black/white cleric deck. I am constantly drawing and playing low-cost clerics, and don't usually have much need for two colorless mana. I chose to put a two color land in instead.
One thing that I would have thought should be brought up is budget decks as sol ring is usually around $2 and if you are doing major budget decks then there might not be space for it.
Sol Ring is in every one of my decks, even my Sarulf, World Eater deck. Even though activating my commander's ability just once removes it for the rest of the game, the mana I get out of it while it is around is still usually worth the slot
I have a grolnok the omnivore deck and the focus is getting out hedron crab and a lot of extra land drops, which triggers hedron crab, to self mill, which can give me more lands = more triggers = more lands = more triggers and I also have tireless provisioner and lotus Cobra, ashaya soul of the wild, aesi, azusa, Steve, arboreal Grazer, lab man, exploration, rites of Flourishing, ect
I have around 45 built decks and 22 sol rings so some decks have to miss out, as don’t wanna buy anymore copies! And yes I do have a deck building habit!
I play Atraxa with a pretty low mana curve and a lot of multicolor spells. Spells that Sol Ring can help cast often just needs 1 colorless mana so you are left with 1 mana floating. Some of my artifacts have Converge and Sunburst so I wouldn't want to use Sol Ring for those either. Sol Ring is usually very awkward in a starting hand as it won't help me cast my commander, or my multicolored 2 and 3 drops that I want to get out before her. I'd trade it for Birds of Paradise all the time on turn 1 as long as I don't have a 2 mana artifact to go with it. But I still run both Sol Ring and Mana Crypt in this deck, because later in the game you want to be able to cast two bigger spells on the same turn, like Doubling Season and a Planeswalker. Atraxa can draw out a lot of removal, and Sol Ring is mostly used for recasting her from the Command Zone. It all comes down to what you are doing with Sol Ring. A lot of time it might be worth running it, even if it's not as good in the same way as other decks.
Sol Ring fits in most decks. Keyword "most". The Jared Carthalion example is a good one - it's a waste of space when you need to generate as many color pips as possible. You could add an additional slot on a filter, but now you waste two slots and you could just include two better rocks that make colored mana.
I always just have a set amount of mana rocks in all my edh decks. The more ramp the deck has the less rocks I run but I always auto include sol ring and arcane signet even in my obuun landfall deck. 1st turn forest to sol ring to arcane signet allows for a turn two obuun and enough mana to start ramping hard turn three which can lead to a win that turn depending on hand but usually turn 4 or 5 if not hit by removal.
I play sol ring in nearly all my decks, the only one that doesn't have it is my Yarok Landfall deck. I had originally forgotten to include it, and due to the fact land ramp is currently taking up the slot for it, I haven't found missing it.
I don't play any mana rocks in my mono-green Rhys the Redeemed deck. This was a conscious choice because of a variety of reasons. I used to run them and actually cut them. 1. I also use this deck as a Canadian Highlander deck with a few of my friends. Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are not worth the points in an ElfBall / CradleHoof deck, when I could be running more tutors. 2. It made the games I played with the deck less fun for my friends. When I was playing much more regularly (pre-pandini), I had one of the highest winrates among my friends. I built decks that were faster and aimed to take out as many people as possible much more quickly. Sol Ring and Mana Crypt popping up in a hand could speed that up by a turn or two, depending on what else I drew, and no one liked losing a game on turn two. 3. I just kind of felt they were unnecessary, at least in that deck. I run every 1-mana elf that can produce a green (including Arbor Elf, which took a while to remember). I run every elf that acts as a Cradle. I run Cradle. The main gameplan of the deck is to make as much mana as I can and cast either a massive draw spell or a Genesis Wave with X = yes. And so many of my elves produce mana, either directly (Llanowar Elves, Priest of Titania, etc), indirectly (Seeker of Skybreak), or passively (any elf with Priest or their contemporaries). It's the only deck I own, and the only deck I've EVER owned, where I felt not only comfortable, but assured in cutting Sol Ring. My deck might not be the best, but I enjoy it and it is certainly mine.
“Auto include” exists as a term for specific deck archetypes still, like a good recent example is “Mount Doom is an auto include in any deck looking to Worldgorger combo”. As long as nothing better comes along, that statement is true
I have a Kaalia of the Vast EDH, it's played in casual "kitchen tabletop" with friends and others at my local lgs. I don't run Sol Ring because Kaalia puts my creatures into play for me. I also run nykthos, shrine to NYX as it helps with mana fixing while generating more than 2 colourless mana in the deck. So I haven't had any issues with it by excluding Sol Ring. The only thing that slows me down is keeping Kaalia alive. But it's still fun to play.
I had 1 deck I didn't pay sol ring in, my Seton mana dork tribal deck. it is mono green and mostly wants green mana. And when I took that apart and put together my Raggadragga deck I didn't put sol ring in there either, I play gruul signet and arcane signet there, but not sol ring, mostly because I forgot it, but the deck doesn't need it. I might be tempted to drop the signets for more land ramp or dorks. 18:00 I agree with this. you can absolutely play sol ring in GX decks. However. Personally, I prefer green land ramp spells over mana rocks and dorks. for me, the ramp tier list goes like this: Spells (cultivate, kodama's reach etc.) > Enchantments > Rocks > dorks
Part of my deck building reasoning for not including sol rings in most of my decks is i don't own enough and dont want to buy more, the couple of decks i choose not to put them are as follows: 5 color angels (jodah commander): i dont need to paint more of a target on my back (jodah is scary enough), and 99% of my permanents are cmc 3+ and i will be adding in more and more cmc 2 or less wraths and hate as it is printed. WG Chorus of the Conclave: i run both stony silence and colector oophe and i need lots and lots and lots of cheap creatures to dump counters on and ramp, and mana dorks fit that bill perfectly. I still run great henge in there because its passive ability is so powerful that stony silencing my own henge is only a speed bump while it turns off sol ring and other activated artifacts, so whatever artifacts i have neeed to be useful on a passive level, and not powerful because of its activated ability.
I have 2 decks without it, one that focuses on colour pips with Krrik and one that just didn't happen to have a lot of generic mana costs and had quite a few landfall triggers which benefited more from another land tutor on that slot instead.
"What are the strategical reasons...?" You are such a wordsmith, Joey. It reminds me of Bugs Bunny using words like "stragety" or "maroon" (best cartoon ever). Great video!
I have an enchantress deck that used to run 0 artifacts. One game, another player cast a spell that let them look through another player's deck and steal an artifact. They chose me.
I cackled for days afterward.
my shrine deck only has Helm of the Gods in it! all green enchantment rocks
Your escapade is legendary and the goblin energy gives me life XD
Similar case here, my Animar deck is 33 lands and 66 creatures. Animar covers the grey cost of all creatures, so a sol ring is basically useless.
My enchantress deck plays no artifacts, although I do concede that deck would be better if I had it and excluding it is entirely for thematic reasons. Anyway, I had someone look through my deck after a game recently and he simply could not wrap his head around it.
My shrines deck does run Expedition Map as a nonbasic search in the absence of fetch lands, as well as a few of the artifact duals. This is explicitly to make it easier to proc Happily Ever After, since I'm not allowed Coalition Victory and it's Coalition Victory at home.
My definition of an auto include is something you have to actively choose not to put in a deck. Sol ring is a choice your making to remove it, not to add it. Very few cards can hold a candle to that.
That's fine, but your own definition implies that the deck you are including the card into matters. So although sol ring would be an auto include in most decks it is not always an auto include. In the case of Animar i would consider Ancestral Statue an auto include but not sol ring.
Well put
Yea I agree, its like when you going to make any deck, you know how many land it is gonna be by default. And then you just add/subtract it or replace it with something else.
That just mean the lands are auto include. Why would you think hard to put it or not. We put it first and then think.
Just like Sol Ring, many of use think why NOT to inlcude it but not many who thinks the other way around.
Exactly what i was thinking. For the purpose of optimization, youd need a good reason NOT to put it in. It doesn’t actually mean you literally are only looking for 98 cards from the start.
Thats why it deserves a ban
I wonder how much Pauper Commander impacts this statistic. Since it’s never received a common printing, Sol Ring won’t appear in the thousands of PDH decks the EDHrec is probably pulling from.
That and last I used the site there were no categorical checkboxes to say what EDH format the list was for (albeit that was a while ago)
Heck, and just think of all the OLD style decks that just got updated/added just to use as an archive of days gone by.
probably as much as 1v1 commander impacts it, if I had to guess
I think since you cannot play the card in pedh, it does count as eligible for those decks and doesn't count towards the numbers
Did anyone else think Joey was gonna say he made this episode so he could finally challenge some stats?
😭😭😭
At this point I kinda think he's fine with it and just plays into the joke
Nah, cause Matt or Dana would feel a disturbance and call him, to get the steal.
@bigmacmm5 I would've lost it if Dana or Matt called in to Segway into a challenge the stats
I personally want to make my decks less same-y. I only put it in whenever I play a color combination that lacks good ramp of its own and/or if im playing an artifact deck
I'm in this same bucket. I just really love playing cards that I find neat or interesting, cards that synergize with my deck, and -most importantly- fit whatever theme I'm going for. I gotta make sure I put in my ramp package, but if there are other more fun or interesting options, I'm gonna play them over the same ol' Sol Ring. I'd rather play something cool like a Carpet of Flowers in my enchantress deck, copyable/recursive rituals in my spellslinger deck, or a treasure-maker or artifact-theft card in a pirate tribal deck. Sol Ring might be the stronger option, but I'm not building explicitly for power. I'm building for those VIBES, baybee, and Sol Ring often gets in the way.
Me also, or a deck with really high cmc
I hope you don't run the same lands
@@w4tch0ut10 hardly avoidable to reuse basic lands is it
Commander is a format that allows for deck creativity in a way that you just don't see in other formats. Sol Ring is absolutely a great card, but it is one of those cards that just feels kinda "paint by numbers" when you look at it while deckbuilding. It gives no "Ok, where are they going with this" feeling when I see it hit the table, it is just a simple efficient tool. And that is fine, every deck needs some efficient cards, personally I would rather play a less efficient mana source with some synergistic upside further down the road.
The problem is that all ring is just so efficient that it’s almost impossible to find a card with enough synergy to actually make it worth while. People who I know who don’t play have usually house banned it which isn’t a bad idea if you don’t like the card.
Oh...you mean like how a large number of Commander decks are pretty much virtually the same? I play several pods a week, many with different players. I see the same decks, Commanders, and/or strategies consistently. It is very rare I see a creatively built deck.
@@architectofdreams73 I don't play commander much irl but on arena I always see the same infinite combos and 5 color pile of best cards game after game. There really isn't any creativity in the format, everyone tries too hard
@@Marionettetc pretty much the same in Commander
@@architectofdreams73 Sorry to hear that, my experience has been completely the opposite. Maybe this depends on how powerful the meta you play in is, my groups tend to be on the more casual side. I think as you lean towards more and more competitive groups, the pool of "viable" Commanders and Cards shrinks. Maybe try to be the one to make a change and perhaps others will follow suite. But good luck with that.
Super interesting data dive, Joey!
I personally dropped Sol Ring from most of my decks because it swings games too much. Sol Ring in the first 3 turns just catapults you so far ahead.
Doesn't every good start swing a game in that players favor? You can blame it on a single card like Sol Ring and ban it from your table, but then the green player plays a bunch of dorks and "the artifact guy" can't keep up with his mind stones cause sol ring isnt there and another guy is just randomly mana screwed. Yes, an early Sol Ring can decide a game, potentially. But so can any other good start (or bad luck).
@@w4tch0ut10 I would say you CAN blame it on a single card if that single card is significantly stronger than the alternatives.
@@olah420 but the point was, that since every card sits at a different "power level" there will always be that one card that's the strongest. No matter how many cards you ban.
Oh and let's not forget that you could also blame it on the other cards being too weak. It works both ways. And Sol Ring isnt even the best rock. Arguably not the 2. or 3. best either. So it's not necessarily better than the alternatives.
@@w4tch0ut10 I don't agree with your logic on this. It feels like a slippery slope argument. If you could stack up literally every ramp in the game in a line and each one was 10% better than the previous I would agree with the "no matter how many you ban" argument, because you just work down the chain until there's nothing left. However, the reality is that a vast majority of the payable ramp cards are at a pretty even competitiveness level (2 mana rocks, wayfarer's bauble, llanowar elf, knight of the white orchid, etc, etc, etc). Then there's Sol Ring, and suddenly everything else is pretty crappy in comparison. I see your point about Sol Ring not being the best rock/ramp and I agree; which is why I also don't play those ramp sources either unless I'm playing a competitive game. Sol ring and higher leads to unfun non-games in my experience.
commander players when they win the game
To throw my 2 cents into the conversation, I use EDHREC to have a digital catalog of my Physical Decks, which is about 12. I don't own 12 copies of Sol Ring (No matter how much I want to) I don't use Online Card Sellers so I only Buy from Local Game Stores, and they are frequently our of Stock for Sol Ring.
low colorless pip count is legit. I forget which deck it was in particular, but I remember finding that I couldn't really make good use of the ring in some decks when the main deck just didn't have a lot of colorless in it's costs.
I don't run it in Sythis. She is 2cmc 2 color pips and I play the full Rod / Silence / Ouphe package
we house ruled it to produce one colorless, even at that its still arguably the best mana rock
@@moedark4390 spend one mana to get back a colorless seems like reversed colorfixing to me. At least with Signet, while it costs 2, you can turn a Mana Crypt into a color of choice (and I wouldn't run Signet in most of my decks)
@W4tch0ut It provides it each turn. Better then paying 2 for one mana a turn
@@bestaround3323 but the downside of that mana being colorless can't be overstated. In decks with lower color intensity it might still be fine ramp, but idk. Definitely would turn it from probably 3. or 4. best rock to fringe
The funny thing about sol ring is also that the power level affects sol ring's impact so much. In casual, drawing your sol ring t1 can warp the game, whereas in a pod also running mana crypt, jeweled lotus, etc, the two mana boost is practically business as usual.
I usually sandbag sol ring even if I have it in hand turn one. I don't need to come out that far ahead turn 1. Especially if there's no follow up that same turn.
My reasons are entirely power level based. I just didn’t like the feeling of opening sol ring and winning due to my early leads. Granted, my experience is mostly 2 or 3 player with the same handful of casual players, so my decks are tuned accordingly. When I built for higher-power (and consistently multiplayer) metas, I definitely was throwing it in everything. Definitely appreciate the mindful strategic analysis here that even I never really considered.
I think it would be very interesting for you guys to discuss how the game dynamics change when playing in a game of 3 or 5 players. It's something that comes up very often in normal playgroups. I think sol ring in a three player creates very bad game experience for example.
I really don't like playing against and with sol ring. Often when a player draws sol ring they become the arch enemy or put them so far ahead that it is hard for everyone else to catch up. Most people don't play cards like mana crypt for a reason, even if money isn't an issue. I tend to play lower power games and it tends to dominate said low power games. Which is why, unless it's on theme, I tend to cut it from all of my decks, only 1 of my 20-ish decks having it at the moment.
I think the problem is.. even if you draw it turn 1. You don't have to play it turn 1 specifically to avoid this situation. You are always +1 mana after using it. So best to save till you using it won't pain a target on your back.
You bring up so good points not to use Sol Ring using mana colored spells. Our group always use Sol Ring in our decks. Wouldn't it make sense to use Sol Ring because each time your Commander goes back into the Command Zone, it cost two additional mana each time you bring your Commander out. Thanks for the video Joey.
Why run a sol ring when I can run a counterspell that saves me not only the 2 recast mana, but also the base commander casting cost
@@mattezuka1274 cause you need thr 2 mana more while casting your commander
Straight up, I just don't play sol ring if a deck is meant for purely casual play. Like sure, if you're playing a powerful deck that aims to win and everyone is playing that way, then sure, I'll play one of my decks with it in it. But otherwise, I'll just replace sol ring for a 2 mana rock bc that's the type of ramp that is most common. Plus, helps with not becoming archenemy right away at the start of the game 😉
My decks are power level 5, even with the sol ring lol. I especially need the mana for my WUBRG Jodah, the unifier deck. It mostly has tap lands, so I need the accelerent. It is also mainly me tossing most of my legendary creatures together to have a decent time. I will hopefully get more time to workshop it today
Who actually enjoys playing a game with people who DONT try to win? 🤔 Isn't that like playing with bots?
@W4tch0ut There is a difference between trying your hardest to win during deck construction and during play. If you always try to be meta, then you end up with something like CDH, which takes 3 turns and 90 minutes, and has the same 10 decks. Which is fun for some people, but definitely not what I play commander for.
@@w4tch0ut10 you’d be surprised how many people I’ve met that plays decks that “fucks around and find out” how they win
@@bestaround3323 There are many more decks in cEDH than 10. Just Kenrith has like 3 archetypes.
wonderful video as always Joey!!! i personally don’t put Sol Ring in many of my casual low MV commander decks just on the basis of owning a lot of EDH decks, and i want to look at different pieces of cardboard. giving more niche ramp pieces or synergies a spotlight just makes me enjoy the game a little more.
I spend a lot of time tuning my lists, more so than my playgroup and as a result my decks are noticeably more synergistic. In order to keep myself from stomping my friends every game, I've cut a lot of powerful staples, Sol Ring included.
I was expecting this video to be a push to ditch Sol Ring. Very glad that it was nuanced and a well argued discussion. Thanks for the insight.
I played a game with some friends over the weekend, one of whom was brand new to the format, and it was intended to be a "opportunity to learn your deck" kinda game... I gambled on a 2-land hand with card draw and rocks in my Alibou deck, which IMO is the clunkiest and weakest of my decks... but the hand had a sol ring in it.
It immediately threw me way ahead of my friends in a way that my deck does NOT normally do. On turn 4 I realised I would likely be able to get both casts of an Approach Of The Second Sun off before the end of my next turn. I sighed - a turn 5 win against a brand new player was not what I or anyone wanted. After checking with the group, I played it out - we prefer to do our sandbagging during deckbuilding, not during play - and yeah. The game was over within 10 minutes. All because the speed of sol ring meant I could pop off before my friends had a reasonable chance of doing the same :/
The experience has made me much more skeptical of giving it leeway that other fast mana rocks don't get. If I knew people around me were also interested in cutting their fast mana, I'd be happy to reenact LOTR's Mt Doom scene...
Like 60 of the no sol ring decks are me and my friends and the game is so much better for it. Do it.
A year ago I got into a new playgroup and they told me that they had banned Sol Ring. I wasn't thrilled at first but after playing with them for over a year now, it does make for better games in general, in comparison to my other playgroup that does play it. There are many variables that lead to the better game experience, but honestly I don't miss it at all. Took it out of all of my decks.
Our play group decided not to include fast mana like Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus etc. and this includes Sol Ring. If you think about it the only difference conceptually between Sol Ring and Mana Crypt is a lot of money because Wizard decided to continuously print the card in comparison to the other card. The card is that over powered that it’s hard to find the next best card in the line. Compare it to Worn Powerstone which costs 2cmc more and enters tapped.
I think a lot of these can go either way. You can argue that ring is great regardless and put it in, or argue that some other option is more synergistic. I think both are probably correct, but the question of which is more fun to play/what you want to use that slot for is what it comes down to
I think the one deck I have that I seriously considered cutting Sol Ring was my Ivy, Gleeful Spellthief deck since I was going with an aura enchantress theme to it. I still have it in the list as one of only 2 artifacts but I don't think I'd really miss it were I to actually cut it (except for missing the Pride secret lair art)
Pride ring best ring.
I recently made a list for the new Thalia and The Gitrog Monster and after testing decided to remove Sol-Ring. I found that due to the high land count, land based ramp, and color pips in the commanders mana cost, Sol-Ring didnt work as well as I thought it would.
I was kind of thinking the same thing after testing out a list a bit. I think the only other mana rock I ended up with was Arcane Signet, so I am thinking maybe Ouphe or Null Rod might be worth a shot in the list. I usually only play against my kids so I keep my lists relatively low power, but I like to humble them every once in a while.
@Steven Luoma land ramp can already pay for commander tax and it won't be subject to much removal
@stevenluoma1268 Uhh Phyrexian Tower, Ancient Tomb, Temple of the False God, and Cabal Coffers + mana doubling effects or Crucible of Worlds effects to replay sacc'd lands. When you have all that AND absurd ramp, what's the point in a Sol Ring.
@Steven Luoma this isn't accurate. Lands cannot be countered. Sol Ring can. While I agree Sol Ring paying for commander tax is a thing, it doesn't belong in many land ramp based decks.
@@numnut154 I think _any_ deck that plays Temple and not Ring would have a higher win percentage with Ring and not Temple. Temple is notoriously a win more card, whereas sol ring is good at all stages of the game, but especially strong at giving you early leads, which is the most important way to win the game. (Ramp is nonlinear, so having Ring early is far better than having Temple late, even with all the "downsides" Ring has.)
Like, you could quibble over Tomb vs Ring, but Ring is probably better. It's probably better than Tower. It's better than Crucible in like >90% of scenarios. Is it better than Coffers? Depends on the deck. But Temple _in particular_ is a horrible card that nobody should run in their deck, and anyone doing so should both: A: be embarrassed, B: switch it out for a sol ring.
I remember a playgroup I used to play with that wanted to ban fast mana and sol rings. A month in we saw a huge swing to green decks and my Darien deck sat on the shelf due to not being able to catch up before they went off. We actually saw less variation of decks when fast mana went away.
That's interesting. Was green fast mana like burgeoning banned as well? I personally don't feel like there's a big difference between a nature's lore and an arcane signet for example. EDH is so interesting. At the highest levels, green is probably the worst color, but at casual tables it's the best.
Eliminating fast mana unequivocally advantages base-Green decks.
When I play one of my Mono Green decks at a table where there’s nothing but Sol Ring and Arcane Signet for ramp aside from me, then barring a T1 Sol Ring or lucky double-ritual opener to facilitate a 5 mana Infinite, I give my base odds of winning considerably higher than 50%.
There’s just too many ways I’m at double or more available persistent mana by the T3 untap at latest.
If I do get run down without ramp, it’s again cheap ritual-paid infinites in a pile with a bunch of cheap Tutors, or (not the euphemistic way people use the term) near-cEDH Aggro.
There are decks I think can get inappropriate for certain power levels with absolutely all the fast mana artifacts that’d be optimal for said deck, but by and large I support fast mana because it keeps the Green Is Unfair In Casual vibe to a low roar.
Great video and insight, thank you! I've recently started not Auto including it in my decks with the intention being to evaluate the ramp after the main strategy has been established. Additionally, to lessen usage of sol ring, a person in my playgroup recently made the comment that adding more draw should be weighed higher than ramp so I'm currently testing that notion out. 🤔
It's still an auto include in my initial brews (purely as buffer for commander tax, if nothing else) despite having 2 decks that don't run it/run better without it.
I personally hate the card and the variance it brings to games and would never begrudge people who avoid it or or groups that outright ban it =D
I play Sol Ring now, but when I first started, I was a lot more strict about budget and the ring was a bit more expensive than I felt was justifiable (I tried to keep each card under $2 and it was over $3). Some of my decks still don't have it since I haven't bothered to 'upgrade' that specific card
It also makes you a huge target. If you play it, it can absolutely cause the entire board to focus you down. Also it being so common insures that people will frequently bring counterplay
No kidding. I have personally started packing more Brotherhood's End and Hidetsugu Devours All to deal with Treasures and other tokens but doing so also hits Sol Ring
I've heard this a few times but I play commander basically every day and I've never seen this happen
@@jadegrace1312 Same, I don't doubt that it actually happens, but I really don't think that it's as common as people say
@@jadegrace1312 yea im very new but from what i feel it's like "okay i'll keep an eye on that" and it typically doesn't end up mattering a ton even if it's turn one sol ring
stuff like mystic remora, rhystic study, esper sentinel are much more of a big deal in the early game from what i've seen
if somebody has a by force, or a removal spell that targets multiple artifacts and they don't have a different target, they're more likely to hit your sol ring than they were to hit your worn powerstone
I think another small point that was never brought up was that online not everyone makes decks that are finished and complete or that have been played. They might start making a deck but abandon it half way and the system does not account for decks that are not trying to win. So I would say there is a small percentage of decks on edhrec that are simply waste stats.
I use Sol Ring in decks where it actively helps me ramp into a commander but not in decks where the commander isn't part of the engine or expensive enough to warrant using it like a mini ritual effect.
It isnt a mini ritual effect tho? Do you not realize sol ring is a permanent 2 extra mana that is already positive the turn you play it?
@@mr.joesterr5359 I'm aware, but I use whether or not turn 1 sol ring into turn 2 something essential to my deck's strategy vs. something beneficial but not essential as a metric for whether or not I should put sol ring into my deck.
“High on their own supply” was the best way to describe it in my opinion. Definitely made me bust up 🤣 great video!!
I don't run Sol Ring in my Sigarda, Host of Herons Voltron deck because I do have quite a few artifact hate in the deck. As an enchantress, she draws and ramps me decently being in green. If others depend on their rings and artifacts and I can shut those down, I am repelled forward even further! I also have Serra's Sanctum in the deck so I am usually good on making a lot of mana.
I was on the fence about running it in Hamza, Guardian of Arashin, but I am keeping it there. The cost reduction is on colorless mana, but it is nice being able to cast creatures prior to Hamza coming down, or casting instant and sorceries that ramp or protect.
I also have a sans-Ring enchantress deck!
300$ land> 2 dollar Sol ring
But why not both…?
I’m a little late to the party, but I chose to remove Sol ring from my Ezuri, Stalker of Spheres deck in favor of other mana rocks. I started out with the Sol Ring, but it was very quickly replaced by normally worse mana rocks such as astral cornucopia and everflowing chalice.
Part of the problem was that even with a turn 1 Sol Ring, it simply doesn’t move with the engine and often felt like dead weight on the field. Worse still was that drawing it after the first 3 turns felt like a waste as there was usually other cards that were taking priority to cast and added mana simply wasn’t worth casting as it wasn’t impacting the board state any longer.
This is anecdotal, but smoothing out the draw engine was more important in this case than the extra mana early. It’s important to consider whether a card is truly moving the deck forward or not at all points.
Because it is generic power with no flavor to the deck and sours the taste in my mouth when I play it, it feels like I'm cheating haha
My problem with sol ring has always been what I like to call the "donning the target mask" problem. Whoever gets a turn 1 sol ring is likely to be the first person to suffer at the hands of an opponent, be it a 1/1 creature, a burn spell, or removal. My one aggressive deck, Winota (aka Spin to Winota) runs it, but I often have to put some thought into whether it's worth that risk in other decks. I like to actually establish a board state before I get punched, personally. I usually prioritize putting Hans/Sad Robot in over a sol ring. It may not tap for mana, but it's ramp, card draw, AND HAS LEGS.
I've built most of my decks through dumpster diving through some LGSs and friend's bulk lists, and at a time if I had about 10 of my local currency, I'd rather spend on a couple of key pieces for my decks (which were usually green, and therefore easier to subsidize its lack). The one Sol ring I've got now is in my Tianna deck that is very color intensive, but also very reliant on her to be out, so any help is welcome.
My most recent deck to omit Sol Ring was helmed by Maelstrom Wanderer. I decided to use absolutely no one-drops or two-drops in this deck, so that they couldn't get in the way of cascading into Hypergenesis. In the past, I've also sometimes build decks without Sol Ring to keep them within a specific budget.
Interesting, I doubt my Animar deck compares to a CDH version but I do use Sol Ring in it because of some colorless creatures I use as well as powering up my X cost creatures. Also helps with casting some of my enchantments, though I do experience a bit of frustration when it's time to cast creatures and my arcane signet ends up being more useful most of the time. When people say that frustration isn't a good enough reason to exclude it, you have to keep in mind that being stuck with the wrong mana just one or two times is often a game ender at higher levels of play and may get removed because the extra speed sometimes doesn't make up for being inconsistent.
I have an Omnath, Locus of Rage deck with 60 Lands and no Sol Ring. My Goal was to have a functioning and very strong deck with as many Lands as I could cram in there. It is also my most expensive deck and it is really fun to play.
I have removed all "fast mana" and downgraded Sol Rings to Sol Talismans. And now I am removing Sol Talismans. I like playing higher power decks and I mitigate that by not using any form of fast mana. I like my decks to have actual weaknesses to encourage more dramatic play experiences.
Sol Talisman is very much enough of a downgrade from Sol Ring that I can't imagine wanting to power down even further from it.
@@TheAverageGuyTAG yeah, replacing the sol talisman is to put in a card that actually is relevant.
I dig this. When my deck punches, I want the other decks to be able to punch back. I don’t want to win because I punched so much faster than everyone else (unless I’m playing an aggro deck, in which case it’s a different kind of punch).
@@humanaffectation9021
Fair enough.
I started a personal rule in *most* of my decks to only run cards that are modern legal. It takes out many of the power crept cards printed specifically for EDH, as well as removing the possibility to play the somewhat contentious Reserve List cards. The benefit overall that I've seen from it is that it opened up many new slots in my deck from removing several staples to allow for more diversity in choices, which imo makes them more interesting to play with and against
Agreed. Vintage and legacy staples should not be in a casual format
I think one non-thematic consideration you didn't mention might be in a deck or a group meta where artefact hate is prevalent. Sol Ring probably isn't worth it if things like stony silence or vandalblasts and farewells are extra common.
Great Video! Tuvasa player here and I absolutely agree, between her color intensive casting cost, and the cheapness of most enchantments I am running, Sol Ring actually ends up slowing her down.
Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus and low mana tutors are the only cards we banned in my playgroup, and honestly we regret nothing, makes the decks and matches much more unique and entertaining. The fast mana those artifacts give sometimes make the match spiral out of control and just un-fun or it turns into an Arch Enemy match.
Hilariously, Jeweled lotus only REALLY pops off for mono colored decks. For every other deck it's not always the best, and sometimes a massive dud.
Simple reason for me: I never bought a Precon and since only bought one Sol Ring and never wanted to buy several copies. Therefore, I only have it in my most optimized decks and my other five decks have to do without one
Sol Ring and similar cards were fine 10 years ago, when the base power level of cards was pretty low but, nowadays it is very easy to to gain a huge advantage with 2 extra mana on the first turns.
To me it just depends on the type of deck I want to build. If it’s a fast deck or something that I want to make compete but not at a level like that. If I’m going for a chill deck, especially if it’s a different commander, I choose not to simply for variety
The secret reason for not including Sol Ring: I forgot to put a Sol Ring in my deck! Oops!
The second secret reason: Thada Adel player stole it!
I’m on the verge of taking Sol Ring out of everything I play, and it may be for dumb reasons, but I’m probably going to stick with them. There’s a six percent chance to hit it in your opener, and until your fiftieth draw you have a 2% chance onto hit it. Early game, it draws more heat than I am usually setup to take. Mid game, I’m trying to stabilize and get my closers out, I either need it in play already or I want to draw something else. Late game, I need something other than acceleration almost universally and it has always felt like a dead draw.
It’s just always a bad vibe to me. In the opener? “Wellp, I’m the target now” bad vibes. Draw it mid game? “I really need my engine pieces, I wish I had this sooner” bad vibes. Late game? “I really needed my removal or some kind of draw right now” bad vibes.
But it changes entirely when it’s on board already. Early game ring? “Thank the Magic gods I have the mana for this wipe” mid games. Late game? “Time for the combo pain”.
Then there’s the table dynamics. One person has one? Well, that persons the threat until it’s gone. Two people? Well, now there’s two people behind while half the table throws hay makers. Three people? Well, someone’s getting dunked on or ignored for having a normal game and doesn’t get to feel relevant. None of those are scenarios that I personally feel are what people’s decks showed up to do.
I get the power of a Sol Ring. I have it in everything right now. But it just never passes the vibe check for “what’s gonna be the most fun right now”. I know that’s short sighted, but to me I don’t play commander to win. I play to hang out, have stories about this one time someone did something stupid crazy.
And just like that, to do the stupid crazy, you probably need a Sol Ring to do it.
So I’m obviously conflicted.
Back in 2011 my friends and I agreed to ban Sol Ring from our decks. We felt it ruined too many games if someone got it turn one. Though my friends have quit playing since then I still don’t play Sol Ring.
I personally have two examples at the moment. One is straightforward. I built a Sithis deck (which I love) where I decided that every nonland card would be an enchantment (literally every one). Since that was a deckbuilding requirement, easy answer. The second one I think is slightly more interesting. I have an Eriette of the charmed Apple deck (which I also love). It is a deck that I have officially named Aurazhov, but also refer to as "we've got goad at home". The deck is basically a very slow deck where I enchant my opponent's biggest or more dangerous threats with beneficial auras so that they can can keep on swinging with a bit of a buff, just not my direction. Then I use my commander's effect (and a few similar effects) to drain my opponent's while they hit each other. I think the biggest strength of Sol Ring, and why it is such an incredibly powerful card, is the potential for that crazy early play where you turn one or two a Sol Ring and then play out your commander early or have another explosive play. My Eriette deck does not have big explosive plays, just a slow, grindy playstyle. At best if I turn one a sol ring (which is very rare statistically) I can get my commander out one turn early, which usually doesn't matter that much, since early in the game, I usually don't have enemy creatures I want to enchant. Ultimately, I just think it doesn't provide much benefit to the deck, and I would rather play other cards, such as another aura, or protection piece, or piece of draw (STILL haven't gotten around to picking up Ashiok's Reaper, Hateful Eidolan, and Kor Spiritdancer yet).
Outside of it being a wasted slot in my landfall deck, I don't really play it and colorless mana rocks much anymore due to how much I've smoothed out the mana curve. The decks care more about getting the right colors rather than huge colorless mana.
sounds like a power 7 deck
Joey VERY subtle on the Tatyova joke 😂
I tend to not use Sol Ring in my decks for a reason that my playgroups end up just agreeing to disagree with. Most people want to have that mana out early and so they put in rocks like Sol Ring or Jeweled Lotus expecting it on turn 1-3.
My rebuttal is this: In a casual game where you're having fun with friends at a table, would you like to draw a Sol Ring turn 4-8, or a synergy card?
This was awesome! It's incredibly interesting to listen to what sound like some valid reason not to run a SR and then to still see that over 50% of people are still including it. It just leaves me wondering what is the percentage of people who included a SR because of its fame and hype? I wonder how low the percentages could go or if the 50+% of people running it in some of the decks mentioned would miss it if they cut it? It's in my prosper deck but on games where I don't pull it I don't miss it or at least I don't think I do.
I have started playing less and less sol ring in decks for power level. Yes it's legal and good but I don't enjoy games where I am too ahead of my opponents. I will sometimes choose to mulligan if it's in my opening hand
Edit: honestly I play less and less traditional ramp cards these days in general. Slow mana rocks don't get you very far in 2023. There is so much accidental removal that it sometimes only give you a temporary boost of mana
The pips can play a huge role depending on how central the commander is to your strategy. In animar for example, his ability is central to the deck so cutting any ramp that can't help cast him as early means you are eliminating dead cards from t1-t3 plays
edit:shouldve watched the rest before commenting
I only recently started taking sol ring out of some decks. It was a conscious decision as I realized the colorless mana wasn't doing what I needed. Other ramp pieces worked better.
what kind of ramp pieces? Never seen something better then solring
@@w.s6124 Well in a deck that doesn't use colorless mana much or is focused heavily on creatures, sol ring often doesn't do a lot. In my Jarad deck, I swapped out all of my rocks for mana dorks and land ramp. It synergizes better with my other pieces. In another deck, I hate on artifacts heavily and punish cheap ramp, I don't have it in that deck either. I do still have it in most decks though. Essentially, if Sol ring is a nonbo or doesn't get my commander/key pieces out faster, I try and find a better option synergistically.
@@ozzwich i think even in jarad solring is still one of the best ramp cards enven if theres no sinergy. But i could be wrong never playd with him as a commander just from my general experience with creature decks
It’s a bit hard to explain in UA-cam comments, but essentially it is a combination of the reasons listed in this video. Deck relies heavily on black or green pip cost things, creature ramp to go with creature synergies ect. I had too many games were soo ring just did nothing, even on turn 1 or 2.
I made a feather the redeemed decklist recently and it's the first time I've considered cutting sol ring from the list in a commander deck. It's not just the commander herself costing 3 color pips, the deck as a whole is extremely pip heavy to the point where I feel as though mid-game treasure token generators like storm-kiln artist or smothering tithe are a lot more useful. I still ended up keeping sol ring in the end though because my list has more equipments than average, but I can definitely see myself mulliganing starting hands even if they contain a sol ring.
Don't forget rule 0. I've been in some playgroups that have Sol Ring banned because it ended up being the deciding factor of a game and that isn't always appreciated in some circles.
The only deck I don't run Sol Ring is my extreme budget deck. The value of the whole deck (not including basics) cannot go above the price of 12$
As mentioned in the video, Jarad Golgari Lich Lord is my deck I took sol ring out of. I have a lot of cards that care about creatures in GY like boneyard wurm or spider spawning. Overall I have 52 creatures and only one non-creature artifact (witchbane orb for GY protection). Sol ring in the bin doesnt +1/+1 my creatures or get hit on a living death
I have a couple of decks that don't run Sol Ring. Some of those indeed fall into the pip heavy requirements (with indeed Johda being an example).
The more interesting reason are my three intentionally low-powered decks, where including Sol Ring would make the deck better but it would be against the purpose the deck was optimised for. Not every deck is optimized to be powerful, some decks are optimized for a gamestyle where that kind of acceleration would be disruptive.
But we also have the rule where mana positive ramp costs at least 3 in the first three rounds (which is where Sol Ring really shines).
It’s one guy not playing it. He just has a lot of decks.
For me it always start with a sol ring and arcane signet in my list, BUT if I’m getting close to finishing the list and have a card or two that I REALLY want to play in the deck but just can’t find room for, they are the first cards to come out
I agree that personally I want flavour in my Commander decks, but also I try to use cards only once amongst my decks so I will use sol ring in a masterpiece deck I dream of making 😇. But I prefer style over substance in commander
One of my oldest decks is a Grixis vampire deck. It used to be headed by Garza Zol, but I switched to Evelyn, the Covetous awhile back. Neither version has ever included a Sol Ring for thematic reasons, namely that vampires traditionally avoid the sun. I later built an Edgar Markov deck and it has Sol Ring because it includes a bunch of the Ixalan vamps who aren’t as sun-avoidant as many vamps, but the Grixis one will never run it because I prefer it that way. It is very heavily vamp themed even beyond being heavily tribal.
I like replacing some very popular good cards like sol ring with some group hugish ramp or draw cards that can help someone who may be having a rough start to a game. If I'm in green my go to us avatar of growth, if I am in white I like cards like cut a deal or flumph, and if I am in red I like Descend into Avernus. Those cards can spark joy which I appreciate because sometimes people get stuck with just the lands they started with and the complaining can really bring the mood down for the table. The nice thing about having these types of cards in your deck is that you can always choose not to play them if the situation is inappropriate (like if some one brings a cEDH deck to FNM, I am not going to help that person get ramp/draw since their deck is more efficient than mine), however those situations are rarer than if you get a sol ring early and the hostility of the table is pointed at you for being lucky enough to get such a powerful temporary ramp source.
All three of my green decks (Lathril, Sythis, and Imoti) don’t play Sol Ring for reasons all mentioned in this video - caring about Elves, being enchantress, and wanting to cascade + having a Keruga companion - respectively.
My favorite deck is my Rhys the redeemed elf / token synergy deck. Sol ring doesn’t help me cast my commander and I almost never have a mana problem due to the elves. After all of this sol ring is still one of the best cards in my deck. The only deck I’ve ever built that hasn’t had a sol ring was a Garth one eye / Jegantha companion ( WUBRG tribal) deck.
See exactly even decks where sol ring seems to do nothing to help your ‘synergy’ its still busted.
My play group has Sol ring banned because any card that is so good that it must be included in nearly every deck decreases creativity in deckbuilding and diversity in gameplay.
I have a lot of reps over several years now with my Ramos, Dragon Engine deck. I have reasons to not play it, but they are subjective and/or dependant on specific playgroups. 1. It doesn't trigger Ramos if drawn after he's in play. 2. The deck wants me to play 3-5 ramp spells in the opening turns before casting Ramos. If I cast him on turn 3 which is much easier with a Mana Crypt or Sol Ring, he'll get removed or countered and I'm back to square one having wasted 6 mana. Whereas, if I spend my first four turns casting ramp, by the time I cast Ramos, some of the table's opening-hand interaction will have already been used up. Or, I have accesss to 8-9 mana now which means I can cast him with protection. 3. It's "memey". I enjoy having these discussions with people in the game whenever it comes up. "This deck doesn't play Sol Ring" is an interesting conversation starter and challenges some pretty strong assumptions people have made. I don't care if they're right, I have limited the number of colorless spells in the deck to two: Greaves and Orrery, and even then I'm frequently testing for replacements to Greaves. Now that I think about it, maybe Orrery could be replaced with a tutor for Leyline of Anticipation.😮
I find it crazy the Sol Ring causes so much uproar just because it gives two more mana.
A lot of tables ban sol ring because it is simply overpowered so even in low power decks if someone gets it even by turn 3 is super good and way to strong
I have a Child of Alara lands deck. Sol Ring doesn't help get lands from my hand into play or get lands out of my deck or interact with Child. It can help me cast a more expensive ramp card, but it's usually not in play for longer than a turn or two before Child needs to clear the board for me. It also doesn't help cast child. When I'm playing this deck, I'm rarely thinking "I need more mana" I'm always thinking "I need more cards"
I play a lot of 5 color decks and some factors I take into consideration when I think about adding or cutting Sol Ring is 1) what is my commanders cost, 2) how necessary is my commander to my strategy and 3) do I need a lot of generic mana to cast my game winning cards. For instance my Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck needs a lot of specific colors and needs to get him out as quickly as possible so I didn't add Sol Ring to it since I needed to focus on getting colors on the field whereas my Jenson Carthalion/Lurrus deck is an Ad Naus deck so I need Sol Ring to help me potentially get a turn 2 Naus. You can add Sol Ring into any deck and it be helpful but the degree to which it helps will vary with power level and playstyles
I was there! I answered the tweet! 😅 Sometimes one just has more decks than copies of Sol Ring.
I'm in the situation where I just don't want a sol ring in my deck when I have any valid reason to do so. Most of the time when I build a deck, I'm getting to more than a 100 cards and cutting Sol Ring, a card I already have in many decks has become easier than ever. Sure, it's powerful, but any synergistic card alligned with the theme of the deck will please me more to play then a mana rock (and most of the time, I would rather play a land than play a sol ring, especially in commander).
_
And on the topic of not running sol ring in a green deck, in my opinion it really depends on how color heavy your deck is (as in your mana costs) and how many colors you have besides green. The green mana ramp package is a very strong tool that can be extremely reliable until you reach the fourth color, where fetches become more interesting to fix your mana. I would never run a Sol Ring in a mono green deck, but I might in a two or three colored one. For four and five colored deck... fixing becomes an issue, and I would rather play a chromatic lantern than a sol ring any day of the week to avoid having to think about tapping my mana right.
I go back and forth with running Sol Ring in my Spellslinger deck since it wants to run a lot of cost reduction and low-cost Instants and Sorceries with an emphasis on colored mana pips, which I can cover with ritual effects if necessary. The one big reason I keep Sol Ring in my Veyran deck is because it uses an Isocron Scepter and Dramatic Reversal, so it's just a hyper-efficient way to generate infinite mana of any color between it an an Izzet Signet and/or power the handful of more expensive haymakers I use to end the game, otherwise I would probably cut it.
As the creator of the cEDH Sythis deck, don't run Sol Ring in Enchantress. You want to be able to burn through your entire deck and recycle the cards you don't use off of Wheel of Sun and Moon. (Which is also an enchantment)
Sol Ring just makes sure that you do NOT keep your chain going. The entire deck does everything it wants to do without Sol Ring. Honestly, the deck can out ramp Sol Ring in the early game anyway.
As far as casual, I have a few decks that don't run Sol Ring in casual. Why? Because I'm in green. Because I don't have extra Sol Rings. Because I want to play a fair game with my friends. Because its so hard to find a slot in the deck for a SOL RING. Even cutting a land for Sol Ring is just... BAD in the deck.
When I can Shaman of Forgotten Ways or Lukka, Bound to Ruin why do I need Sol Ring?
The first deck I took sol ring out of was my smart omnath deck, after that I started taking it out of my 3+ color decks, I don't normally miss it at all. And one sided games happen far less often too.
My LGS regulars made a pact we would trim it and mana crypt from our Commander Decks. We kind of all agreed that it wasn't much fun when 1 or 2 people hit and just get off to a crazy head start. Commander Decks seem so quick to pop off these days even without either, and it really sucks "losing" because you didn't hit your Sol/Crypt and one guy at the table hit one, or both. Its made our games much more um...balanced or level, and weve seen an uptick in people trying more variety of commander piles because they don't have to fear being out of the game after a couple turn missing these cards.
Online in MTG Arena however for Brawl/Historic Brawl (or, Commander Lite) I put that shit on everything, even at its worst it still covers the first increase to commander cost for 1 mana. Which is decent enough to be included in piles where you have Commanders (that don't prevent its cast/usage). Like in the Arena its all about being as degenerate as possible, and Sol Ring is a stud when it comes to being a degenerate, especially when you are going full out and running paradox engine piles like an absolute sociopath.
i was gonna mention yuriko but it was in the video! awesome!
I'm glad you mentioned sidisi, I play her and don't use sol ring or many other noncresture staples. Also I am just a conscientious objector to sol ring 😅
I don't have a Sol Ring in my black/white cleric deck. I am constantly drawing and playing low-cost clerics, and don't usually have much need for two colorless mana. I chose to put a two color land in instead.
One thing that I would have thought should be brought up is budget decks as sol ring is usually around $2 and if you are doing major budget decks then there might not be space for it.
I've built multiple ultra budget ($20 or under) decks, and Sol Ring never makes it on lmao
Sol Ring is in every one of my decks, even my Sarulf, World Eater deck. Even though activating my commander's ability just once removes it for the rest of the game, the mana I get out of it while it is around is still usually worth the slot
Some people dont own it, or dont own one for every one of their decks.
I have a grolnok the omnivore deck and the focus is getting out hedron crab and a lot of extra land drops, which triggers hedron crab, to self mill, which can give me more lands = more triggers = more lands = more triggers and I also have tireless provisioner and lotus Cobra, ashaya soul of the wild, aesi, azusa, Steve, arboreal Grazer, lab man, exploration, rites of Flourishing, ect
I have around 45 built decks and 22 sol rings so some decks have to miss out, as don’t wanna buy anymore copies! And yes I do have a deck building habit!
I play Atraxa with a pretty low mana curve and a lot of multicolor spells. Spells that Sol Ring can help cast often just needs 1 colorless mana so you are left with 1 mana floating. Some of my artifacts have Converge and Sunburst so I wouldn't want to use Sol Ring for those either. Sol Ring is usually very awkward in a starting hand as it won't help me cast my commander, or my multicolored 2 and 3 drops that I want to get out before her. I'd trade it for Birds of Paradise all the time on turn 1 as long as I don't have a 2 mana artifact to go with it.
But I still run both Sol Ring and Mana Crypt in this deck, because later in the game you want to be able to cast two bigger spells on the same turn, like Doubling Season and a Planeswalker. Atraxa can draw out a lot of removal, and Sol Ring is mostly used for recasting her from the Command Zone.
It all comes down to what you are doing with Sol Ring. A lot of time it might be worth running it, even if it's not as good in the same way as other decks.
Sol Ring fits in most decks. Keyword "most". The Jared Carthalion example is a good one - it's a waste of space when you need to generate as many color pips as possible. You could add an additional slot on a filter, but now you waste two slots and you could just include two better rocks that make colored mana.
I always just have a set amount of mana rocks in all my edh decks. The more ramp the deck has the less rocks I run but I always auto include sol ring and arcane signet even in my obuun landfall deck. 1st turn forest to sol ring to arcane signet allows for a turn two obuun and enough mana to start ramping hard turn three which can lead to a win that turn depending on hand but usually turn 4 or 5 if not hit by removal.
I play sol ring in nearly all my decks, the only one that doesn't have it is my Yarok Landfall deck.
I had originally forgotten to include it, and due to the fact land ramp is currently taking up the slot for it, I haven't found missing it.
I don't play any mana rocks in my mono-green Rhys the Redeemed deck. This was a conscious choice because of a variety of reasons. I used to run them and actually cut them.
1. I also use this deck as a Canadian Highlander deck with a few of my friends. Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are not worth the points in an ElfBall / CradleHoof deck, when I could be running more tutors.
2. It made the games I played with the deck less fun for my friends. When I was playing much more regularly (pre-pandini), I had one of the highest winrates among my friends. I built decks that were faster and aimed to take out as many people as possible much more quickly. Sol Ring and Mana Crypt popping up in a hand could speed that up by a turn or two, depending on what else I drew, and no one liked losing a game on turn two.
3. I just kind of felt they were unnecessary, at least in that deck. I run every 1-mana elf that can produce a green (including Arbor Elf, which took a while to remember). I run every elf that acts as a Cradle. I run Cradle. The main gameplan of the deck is to make as much mana as I can and cast either a massive draw spell or a Genesis Wave with X = yes. And so many of my elves produce mana, either directly (Llanowar Elves, Priest of Titania, etc), indirectly (Seeker of Skybreak), or passively (any elf with Priest or their contemporaries).
It's the only deck I own, and the only deck I've EVER owned, where I felt not only comfortable, but assured in cutting Sol Ring. My deck might not be the best, but I enjoy it and it is certainly mine.
“Auto include” exists as a term for specific deck archetypes still, like a good recent example is “Mount Doom is an auto include in any deck looking to Worldgorger combo”. As long as nothing better comes along, that statement is true
I have a Kaalia of the Vast EDH, it's played in casual "kitchen tabletop" with friends and others at my local lgs.
I don't run Sol Ring because Kaalia puts my creatures into play for me. I also run nykthos, shrine to NYX as it helps with mana fixing while generating more than 2 colourless mana in the deck. So I haven't had any issues with it by excluding Sol Ring.
The only thing that slows me down is keeping Kaalia alive. But it's still fun to play.
I had 1 deck I didn't pay sol ring in, my Seton mana dork tribal deck. it is mono green and mostly wants green mana. And when I took that apart and put together my Raggadragga deck I didn't put sol ring in there either, I play gruul signet and arcane signet there, but not sol ring, mostly because I forgot it, but the deck doesn't need it. I might be tempted to drop the signets for more land ramp or dorks.
18:00 I agree with this. you can absolutely play sol ring in GX decks. However. Personally, I prefer green land ramp spells over mana rocks and dorks. for me, the ramp tier list goes like this: Spells (cultivate, kodama's reach etc.) > Enchantments > Rocks > dorks
Part of my deck building reasoning for not including sol rings in most of my decks is i don't own enough and dont want to buy more, the couple of decks i choose not to put them are as follows:
5 color angels (jodah commander): i dont need to paint more of a target on my back (jodah is scary enough), and 99% of my permanents are cmc 3+ and i will be adding in more and more cmc 2 or less wraths and hate as it is printed.
WG Chorus of the Conclave: i run both stony silence and colector oophe and i need lots and lots and lots of cheap creatures to dump counters on and ramp, and mana dorks fit that bill perfectly. I still run great henge in there because its passive ability is so powerful that stony silencing my own henge is only a speed bump while it turns off sol ring and other activated artifacts, so whatever artifacts i have neeed to be useful on a passive level, and not powerful because of its activated ability.
I have 2 decks without it, one that focuses on colour pips with Krrik and one that just didn't happen to have a lot of generic mana costs and had quite a few landfall triggers which benefited more from another land tutor on that slot instead.
"What are the strategical reasons...?"
You are such a wordsmith, Joey. It reminds me of Bugs Bunny using words like "stragety" or "maroon" (best cartoon ever). Great video!