You are right that Josh didn’t jump the Octave. Where you notice Tveit is not a baritone is in the reprise of Johanna-when he’s singing against another tenor role. He doesn’t hit those lower notes like Groban did…but the physicality he brings to role, his chemistry with Sutton, the grace of his movements is just incredible . He is so well conditioned for this role…it even looks like he’s bulked up his upper body a bit to handle being pulled from a supine to standing position twice per show (this move actually injured Groban’s shoulder).
George Hearn jumps the octave, I believe that is what is written. It's meant to sound anguished and pained, which by the way it does not at all in Aaron Tveit's voice
Groban is not a baritone either. As somebody who grew up listening to opera and is blessed and cursed with absolute pitch, I cannot notice that audiences who are not familiar with opera call random tenors, even really high ones (e. g. Jeff Buckley) baritones, because they are not acquainted with the real stuff. He's just a somewhat lowish tenor, but does not even come close to what a true baritone is.
@@Donello Hey, here's @YanagiJuniper on a different account to avoid and create confusion simultaneously. I am a student of classical music, training as a dramatic tenor. I will tell you right now that your conclusion is incorrect. Josh Groban calls himself a baritone and has all the hallmarks of a lyric baritone. He actually has some classical training himself. If you pay attention, though he has an incredible voice, his high notes are very frequently outside of his fullest register, which in fact doesn't sound much like a tenor at all. While there is considerable overlap between baritones and tenors, something any opera singer worth their salt will tell you, most people did fit squarely into one or the other. Josh Groban is most certainly a baritone. Now he's not a bass-baritone, which is what most people who think they know classical music but actually don't think a baritone is. Believe it or not, baritones are supposed to go high! Many of them even have the capacity for high C's, albeit not to the extent of a tenor voice. I would argue that a lot of people who aren't well acquainted with classical music wrongly assume any man that can sing high is a tenor. The reality is that baritones also sing rather high. In fact, here is a recording of a famous baritone (who frequently played bass-baritone roles) singing Nessun Dorma, a huge, high, dramatic tenor aria, in the original key. ua-cam.com/video/1QYlBxA4xXQ/v-deo.html
@@WillowPolangco-Kenney Hello. Thanks for you reply and for the Timothy Nolen performance of “Nessun dorma”. I really appreciated the guy. By the way, I don't consider the 3.5 minutes and two stanzas of this aria as “huge”, especially in comparison with certain Wagner monologues. Two stanzas and about 3 minutes are standard in a typical Puccini tenor romanza. Cf. e. g. “Recondita armonia”, “E lucevan le stelle”, “Ch'ella mi creda” or, in the same opera, “Non piangere, Liù”. Difficult: yes. Dramatic: mostly, even though the aria has been sung by lyrical voices as well - and the more dramatic parts are found e. g. in the riddle scene or in the duet with Turandot. Now that I'm through with the ceremonial part, I'll address the contentious topic. My answer to you has become very long, so please excuse that and take your time to read and, if you wish, to reply. I'm fairly well acquainted with the baritone repertoire and also with the baritone voice as such, even though I'm a light lyric tenor myself (I did take voice lessons with the intention of becoming a professional singer, but ultimately went into a different direction). If you know the history of voice classifications, then it should be no secret to you that the baritone voice as an independent voice type, intermediate between tenor and bass, emerged about the 1830ies, diverging from the bass, so the idea that “baritones are supposed to go high” stands on somewhat shaky grounds, even if in later literature there are some examples - but a solid B flat to be taken in full voice is unheard of in classical baritone literature, even though some exceptionally gifted baritone singers did interpolate it in actual performances: I think a Verdi baritone (Cappuccilli? Milnes?) interpolated it in “Attila” or, in any case, in an early Verdi opera. What singers do when they vocalise is a different thing altogether and does not really count: you have to be able to vocalise higher than the highest notes you sing in actual performances. So far I've yet to hear a baritone high C either in performance or in vocalisation, which leads me to doubt your claim that “many of them have the capacity for high C's”. There are a few antecedents to the 1830ies baritone as a consistent phenomenon, like the Rossini Figaro, who's got quite a few high Gs and whose cavatina has been occasionally sung by tenors, but e. g. in Bellini and Donizetti, the baritones rarely have to go above F or G flat, and the tessitura is still relatively low (there are some exceptions when former tenors changed their vocal fach, like Abayaldos in “Dom Sébastien”, who's fiendishly high for a normal baritone even though he does not have any truly high notes). The Verdi baritone is usually quite high. Later, some authors, when composing for specific singers, wrote high notes above the high G, but a high A flat is something that occurs only extremely rarely in classical baritone literature. There's an unwritten A flat in the “Pagliacci” prologue and there are some in Tchaikovsky and Rimsky-Korsakov, the latter having some baritone parts that could be actually sung by a low tenor, in view of their tessitura. If I'm not mistaken, a written A to be sung in full voice is only found in Jago's drinking song in Verdi's “Otello” (I'll leave out classical modern 20th-century opera like “Wozzeck”, because the vocal writing there is something else). The French used to cultivate some intermediate voice types. E. g. the Duke of Rothsay in Bizet's “La jolie fille de Perth” can be sung either by a baritone or a tenor, according to the composer, and there is the famous voice type called baryton-martin, whose most representative part is Pelléas, written in violin clef, who's also has been sung both by baritones and tenors, though baritones neatly prevail - I guess the baryton-martin is something like the heir of the French Baroque voice type called taille, which by modern standards can be classified either as a high baritone or as a low tenor. On the other hand, especially Wagner wrote some tenor parts like Tristan or Siegmund that over big stretches (e. g. Siegmund before “Winterstürme”, which is almost the entire first act) are written in what is really a baritone tessitura, and there are some roles like Mime in “Siegfried” or many of the roles that Rossini composed for Andrea Nozzari that go as low as A2b (modern Rossini tenors mostly avoid them). I'm acquainted with two baritones singing at the same opera house, one of whom, a dramatic one, has been called a bass in some reviews, while the other, having a somewhat higher and more lyrical voice, has sung Oppenheimer in “Doctor Atomic”, a part that contains about 30 high Gs (that are written really well for his voice, he told me). Among historical examples, Fischer-Dieskau often sang Schubert & Schumann Lieder in the original tessitura for high voice (some of which are also demanding in terms of low notes, which many a tenor often does not deliver in good quality). When he got older, his voice sounded almost too bright and thin for a baritone (which is why my late father considered him a lazy tenor), but in young age, like e. g. in the famous Furtwängler recording of “Tristan und Isolde”, he does not yet have that tenorish sound. Among some friends and acquaintances of mine, there happen to be some tenors whose low registers would make the envy of many a baritone. One of them, a big-voiced high tenor, was at first misclassified as a deep bass, used to be able to go down as low as C2. When I met him, he was no longer able to sing bass, but the baritone low register and the “bass F” were no problem at all. On the other hand, there also were/are singers who, while being able to sustain a very high tessitura, didn't or don't possess stable high notes. An example would be Tito Schipa. So the deciding factor for me is not the ability to sing isolated high notes, even though they may be indicative as well, but voice colour & weight, tessitura and, especially in untrained singers, the passaggio. And this brings us back to the subject of discussion, i. e. Josh Groban. If he were a true lyric baritone, comparable voices would be e. g. Thomas Hampson or, among older singers, Hermann Prey and Pavel Lisitsian. Yet all of them, even Hampson, who by many has been called a tenor and whose voice in the last decade or so (don't know if he's still performing) has showed characteristica similar to those of Fischer-Dieskau in his late recordings, have a timbre and other vocal characteristics that are markedly different from Groban's. I don't hear the lyric baritone at all, but rather a full lyric tenor with some spinto potential, ideal for e. g. Cavaradossi. Groban is not only able to sing single high notes up to B flat, but he's also able to sustain tenor tessitura effortlessly in many of his songs, some of which insist heavily on E4-F4 or even F4-G4b (e. g. “You Are The Only Place”). The adverb “effortlessly” is key here: a tenor's upper middle range is the high register of a baritone and, consequently, the energy one has to put in to sustain the same notes is different for the two types of voice. In some of his songs (e. g. “Canto alla vita”) I also hear him artificially darkening and adding unnecessary weight to his voice in the low and lower middlerange, where he also sounds guttural - and doesn't display a good legato, especially in the low register. On the other hand, sometimes, he's barely audible below the low C, e. g. in “L'ultima notte”, which also speaks for a tenor voice. So my overall opinion on Groban's vocal classification remains the same:not a baritone - not even a lyric one --, but a true tenor.
@@Donello Hey, so, I tried to respond to every individual part of this reply, but it felt wrong. So, here's attempt number two. You clearly know what you're talking about. I thought at first that you might not, just because you said you "listened to a lot of opera" when you grew up. You have demonstrated that you actually do know quite a good deal. I do not necessarily agree with everything you have said, but it comes from an educated place. The most important thing to address is really just the last thing you talk about-- vocal colors being indicative of voice part. The reason I find this to be important is because of the material of a composer you mentioned earlier-- One Richard Wagner. The tenor roles he wrote were for an especially rare kind of tenor called a heldentenor-- which you definitely know, but I'm sure some people reading this exchange might not-- that was so dark and rich in color such that they may often be mistaken for baritones. I would argue, on average, that a lyric baritone is a lighter voice than a heldentenor. This is to demonstrate that the subject of fachs is often more nuanced than where the break is or what notes are effortless. I would argue that most male singers with a good few years of classical training should be able to effortlessly produce a lot of "high notes". The main person I had in mind, by the way, when mentioning baritones with high C's was the excellent Michael Spyres, certainly naturally a baritone but oddly enough more known for his work in the tenor repetoire. That is what Josh Groban is to me. I do think that a baritone voice exists between a bass and a tenor. If used to not be a concept, as you also alluded to, and many men who were most certainly baritones trained as basses or tenors because those were just the only things they had options for. Josh Groban certainly can sing very high very effortlessly-- as a matter of fact, a dramatic tenor myself, I find some of the notes he sings with ease to sometimes not immediately come to me. However, I would say that the strongest evidence against your case is not anything I can say that directly counters your very well educated and thought out argument, but rather something I have already stated. Josh Groban considers himself a baritone. That and he certainly has a better low G than any tenor his age I've heard. You're correct that under a C3 he is often quiet, but many lyric baritones or baryton-martins don't necessarily have the strength of a bass-baritone that low. Dmitri Hvorostovsky, for example, who I don't think anybody could argue was a true baritone, did not sound particularly strong when he was scraping the bottom of his range like that. You are also correct that Josh Groban has the capacity to sing frequently in the tenor tessitura-- however, I do think that most sufficiently capable baritones, some not even necessarily of the lyric variety, are more than capable of same. I honestly think you are more knowledgeable about this topic than me, though. I don't necessarily feel inclined to agree with you, but my argument is looking a whole lot weaker. Josh Groban is, to be certain, very tenor-ish. I think that baritones and tenors are really more closely related than a lot of people realize. I, as well as basically every dramatic tenor I have spoken to, was initially thought to be "a baritone with a great upper extension" or something similar. I am at a bit of a loss, as the real deciding factors were just what you have laid out so well: not being audible below a low C, effortlessly remaining within the tenor tessitura that would be more in the area of climactic high notes for a baritone, a somewhat lighter natural color. I still am often mistaken for a baritone, in fact, even when I'm singing very very high, just because baritones are often thought to be the darker voice as a rule. I just find myself completely drawing a blank on why Josh Groban would call himself a baritone and all of his teachers throughout his life would seemingly agree he was a baritone. The more I think about it, the more I think it's possible that he somehow has just been repeatedly misidentified. As a bit of an aside, my personal grievance with Aaron Tveit as Sweeney is not him being a tenor necessarily, but rather his lack of really any strength at all in his lower register. He is a contemporary singer who basically always just sings high. I mean, he has up to at least a D#5 from what I have heard. He sings so dang high and light so dang often and his voice is kind of just stuck like that. Another tenor who has done it that I actually enjoyed a lot was Michael Cerveris-- although he is another one like Groban that could be debated to be either a baritone or a tenor. I suppose, at the end of the day, classification of this sort doesn't really apply well to anything other than classical music, and sometimes may not even really apply to certain individuals in classical music, but it is very interesting to discuss. Thank you for your thought, input, and time.
I saw Aaron Tveit the day before yesterday and I went in with a lot of reservations as a bit of a Sweeney Todd purist. Having said that, Aaron realy blew me away with his performance. It is beautifully acted and he has a strong, rich lower register in the areas that have not been transposed. I actually hope to see him again to see how his performance evolves.
I saw Aaron live. I was so nervous because of him being a tenor. I was completely BLOWN AWAY. He was terrifying and yet somehow he humanized Sweeney at the same time. And his voice was just incredible. The videos don’t do it justice
I honestly liked her more than Annaleigh Ashford! Wish that somehow, some way, Josh and Sutton could've performed together. I don't dislike Aaron, but Josh just blows him out of the water imo
I know exactly what you mean about Josh not seeming like a very convincing murder. 😂 He does seem like a such a sweet person in real life, and it’s very important to remember that he’s a singer first and actor second. Unfortunately in some shows you can’t always get a perfectly well rounded singer/actor/dancer; one skillset shines a little brighter than the other two. I had some very slight notes for Josh Groban’s acting during the performance I saw him in, but I actually liked his portrayal a lot. I tend to like the portrayals of Sweeney that are very stoic, unassuming at first, but this growing unsettling presence in the corner of a room. Not so much the type that would scratch their vocal cords, hell at your doorstep, fit of rage character. By my personal preference, Josh Groban played the type of Sweeney I enjoy more and his voice VERY much matched up with that portrayal. I saw him on his second to last weekend on stage and his voice was still IMMACULATE. 😩🤌❤ On first impressions seeing and hearing Aaron Tveit as Sweeney, I’d actually really, REALLY like to see him in the roll Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde from (duh) “Jekyll & Hyde”. I would love to hear him sing “This is the Moment” and “Alive.”
I wouldn't want to meet this Aaron in a dark alley. I read somewhere it was only half a note higher then the original. I do hope he isn't hurting his voice, i would think he normally takes good care of it. He couldn't have done all of the catch me if you can shows if he wasn't good to his voice.
I hadn’t heard this before and I have to say I like it. I grew up listening to Len Cariou and George Hearn absolutely *murder* (pun intended) their voices, and that seems right for a song in which a man completely breaks. Aaron Tveit’s higher voice also cuts through the orchestration really well, kind of bouncing off the low musical stings like he’s on a trampoline of insanity. The lower parts sound somehow less crazed, like they’re his last fingertip-hold on sense before it’s utterly ripped away. I love his commitment and physicality (I’m also a fan, which helps 😆) Love your analysis as always, and I hope your gig goes well 🥰
I was skeptical, but his low notes in this clip surprised me. It's not the Sweeney I'm used to, but I can see the potential of this being great too. (Can't judge from one little clip.) It's true though, that Josh Groban and Aaron Tveit don't immediately look like they would murder like Len Cariou and George Hearn that can just do it with a stare.
Hi Mateo, I have been waiting for someone to comment on Aaron’s performance since I saw the show on his opening night on 2/9/24. I’m a huge fan and just knew he would not have taken this role if he didn’t believe he could do it well. From things he has said in various interviews, he’s been practicing his Sweeney brand of nastiness and insanity for years (to himself, not performing it!) since he has long wished for this opportunity! His acting in this show, in my opinion, is beyond expectation. He makes his own choices and is so credible. He is scary, explosive, menacing and literally looks and sounds insane! I was worried about the key and was so impressed with how well he used his voice to express his fury. When I heard the Epiphany video of 2/15/24 I could tell already how he has settled into the role and has made some subtle but important adjustments. On his opening night I think he was not adequately miked to be heard well enough over the orchestra. I suspect that was corrected and his voice sounded fuller and he was more at ease with the lower register. You have got to go to see him and then review the show‼️
Would be interested to know your thoughts on Joe Locke's vocals in the role of Tobias in Sweeney Todd. It's his Broadway debut and he's been getting - rightly - 100% positive reviews. He's said to be singing in Sondheim's original key (I'm afraid I wouldn't know either way), which is getting huge praise. Just wondered what you thought - especially for a Broadway debutant - of Joe's voice on its own and next to more seasoned performers.
We saw it yesterday, and they are both excellent! I dropped a low note in one of the early songs, but overall was top notch. Lives him in Moulin Rouge as well, recognizing that it was definitely a role for a tenor.
I agree with you about wishing the final note was a little more 'hearty', but I was expecting you to attribute that to the vocal damage he'd just been inflicting on himself with ' but the WORK WAITS!' It sounds like not even he can immediately recover a connected sound after such a throaty savaging.
If you listen to the whole review by Matteo he explains how Aaron can sing the crazy, angry parts and recover to sing on and not damage his voice. Which isn’t to say it doesn’t get exhausted by end of show!!
I waited specifically for this casting to see it (went on their second night). Aaron is my favorite and he was fantastic but Sutton Foster was sheer perfection. HILARIOUS. Her gift for timing and physical comedy is exactly what the role demands. The only thing I didn’t like is that they walk back into hell holding hands. Oh and that weirdly she appears to step into the oven. ???
There is some cutting edge research being done at the University of Utah showing that vocal distortion can be achieved by the upper larynx and you can sing loudly this way without engaging the true vocal folds or damaging them. This presumably has been used unconsciously by many Metal music singers, who have demonstrably preserved their non-distorted singing voices after decades of hours of distorted singing on stage. The Opera singer Elizabeth Zharoff, who has a reaction channel as The Charismatic Voice, and was introduced to Metal singers by her fans, has spearheaded a kickstarter to fund further research by the University of Utah into upper laryngeal singing. She’s not only interested in techniques that opera singers can use to preserve their voices, but also the potential for vocal therapists to help people with damaged vocal folds regain or improve their ability to speak and sing.
I have just found your channel and I'm fascinated by your breakdown of everything. I'm a singer...but not musical theater so it's quite interesting to hear all the analysis. I adore Aaron Tveit and had the priviledge of seeing him perform in Moulin Rouge. I would love your analysis of him singing Roxanne with his opt up. He makes it seem so efffortless. Thanks in advance!
His whole performance, he’s got a straight face. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. You look at this performance and he’s got a straight face no matter what he does. And it just KILLS the whole mood. There’s recordings of the finale ballad, and he comes out to sing the final “attend the tale” covered in blood and all. And he looks like he’s bored. I hate it. It just kills it. Honestly? It seems like he’s working. Like it’s a job for him, a chore to get up on stage and sing this song. Best epiphany, hands down? George Hearn. He’s got the BEST emotion. And his vocal control, from screaming one second, to literally whisper singing the next notes. “Nor a hundred, can assuage me” is the best part. He screams that and sings it. It’s the best. Aaron is the worst sweeney. He was the absolute worst choice for sweeney. And that’s a hill I’ll die on. George Hearn will always be. The best Sweeney. He comes out on the final “attend the tale” fists clenched, eyes locked on the audience. And he’s MAD. Storming off to the back of the stage, slamming that door and the stage goes dark. This Sweeney revival is not what is could have been. It’s good, but not the best. Josh was not the right choice either. I also despise how lighthearted they’ve made this show. The constant stopping to let the jokes sink in, and the flopping around on “by the sea” is so infuriating. This show has its funny bits. Yes. But it’s by no means a fall out of your chair slapstick comedy. It’s a horror show. And it’s gotten out of hand. The fan girls? Are another thing, that’s insane.
This is the first video of yours I've seen, and I'm impressed with the analysis here. Spot on. And Tveit's version of "Epiphany" is much better than I expected, though that last note is a little disappointing -- doesn't resonate as powerfully as it could/should. I'm interested in hearing more, as, like many, I'm not at all sure that either Tveit or Foster are perfectly cast. Both are talented and can be great in the right vehicle, but I don't think either are great in everything I've seen.
Though I was skeptical about the decision of Aaron as Sweeney, specially for what you mentioned of Him being a really high Tenor, I've Listened some of His renditions in the show and it's a different Sweeney from the Groban's, Lewis' or Cariu's versions, but still sounds pretty nice. I see it more like the Johnny Depp versión in the film, more light on the voice, but still pretty scary. I still think the Broadway producers should Cast baritones or basses for roles written for them, but this is quite an interesting decition
This entire discourse is so fascinating to me as an opera singer where it is verboten to even THINK of singing outside of your fach in a majority of houses-as a lyric soprano, I could never sing Dalilah despite actually being able to sing her role very easily because I’m not a mezzo. I have very strong opinions on the fach system and I like that Broadway isn’t so strict. HOWEVER, Sweeney is not a role that should go to a tenor. I can hardly hear Tveit over the orchestration even with a mic. Sweeney is written very much like an opera and the tessitura is so important to the characters; the vocal quality of Sweeney is a character in itself, as is the vocal quality of other characters like Johanna (which I’ve played and was told I’m not the typical casting choice because the color of my voice is too dark for a character that is supposed to sound like a bird.) I think that for a show like Sweeney, vocal fach is essential to casting these roles. Yes, a tenor can sing it but it will not cut through the orchestra the way a baritone would. Definitely not a casting choice I like.
I agree his voice is drowned out at times especially the lower notes. However, not sure which videos you’ve listened to but I think the sound was adjusted (listen to videos a few days into the run) and Aaron’s mic was likely turned up to balance things. His lower notes when you can hear them are used to further his transition to a maniacal, out of control man.
Appreciate the video, but you gotta stop saying "not being careful with his voice", lol. Distortion (and it's various "types") is a technique that can absolutely be developed + refined in a healthy way; it has nothing to do with range. Most people just never learn the right ways to do it. That aside: I like Tveit, but it *is* a bummer they couldn't find a baritone to stunt cast instead. He sounds alright, and his low notes surprisingly are there, but from the other clips I've seen his acting suffers a lot when he stays down there for a while (like in Johanna Act 2).
Josh Groban was more of a "stunt cast" over Aaron,,, he's not really known outside of Broadway. That's where he got his start. I saw him this weekend and he was great.
When my kid's high school changed staff for their theater department, they started the new regime with Sweeney Todd. Down with those old tropes! However, the usual high school casting was still in play, so they ended up with the senior tenor who was expecting the lead. The show was okay for what it was, but for Tenor Sweeney it was good that it was a short run. His voice recoved in time.
I saw their second performance (first matinee). I loved everything about Aaron except epiphany. His lyrical singing was beautiful in things like Johanna and pretty women. But when he tried to be angry he attacked the words in a way I wasn’t a fan of and it made it sound like he was blowing raspberries. I think part of that problem might be the sound system in Sweeney is using? I saw it twice (once in orchestra and once mezz) and both times Daniel Yearwood sounded ridiculously tinny.
I felt some of that on 2/9. I think the sound was off. The orchestra was too loud and/or Aaron and Sutton too, were under miked. Seems by a few days later it was corrected.
I'm curious to hear aaron's entrance as that's my favorite part. I would like to go but ticket prices are crazy due to the limited run. I enjoyed josh's voice but the acting wasn't believable as a bitter, broken killer. I always say sweeney is a pitbull and josh is a Labrador retriever. I suspect josh is too laid back to tap into the crazy. However regardless of doubts I had about his range, I thought aaron could bring the crazy. I was just in NYC in January so trying to resist FOMO.
also... now Anthony, Tobias, Beadle, Adolfo, AND Sweeney are tenors... every character is exibiting a bright sound... no contrast. It all becomes the the same sound all across the board. And they cut the Judge's song so we don't even have that bass moment. Ugh!
Two incredible Broadway talents both in this lead. Aaron Tveit played the roll more broadly; Josh Groban was nevertheless menacing in the extreme. Josh Groban's voice is as incredible an instrument as I have ever heard, and he uses it to bring true menace to the role. It was somehow more terrifying to me to see someone so outwardly restrained but evoking such hatred and menace in his voice. I questioned whether Groban could play evil, but at one point with Groban I actually had goosebumps and physically recoiled as he moved towards the edge of the stage. I have never heard any performer so perfectly evoke emotion as Josh Groban. As sweet as he is, if I had heard the timbre of that voice in a dark street I would have run. He said he wanted to play the role as a normal man driven insane by grief and hatred--it worked! Likewise the anger and frustration he displayed in Great Comet singing "Anatole". Both of these stars are incredible, but that beautiful, powerful and perfectly used baritone voice of Josh Groban is transcendent.
While it is true that Aaron Tveit is not a baritone, but a really high tenor, Josh Groban is not a baritone either. He's a tenor, too, even though not quite as high one as Tveit. Consequently, with his somewhat darker and meatier voice, he manages better in that low tessitura.
Bitter aging alto here, this drives me crazy. I'm so tired of everything being pitched so damn high. I've lost my upper range, so I've had to learn to live with singing everything written for women an octave down.
My very first Broadway show was the original cast, Len Cariou and Dame Angela Lansbury, and frankly, I've been chasing that high ever since. That said, both current leads, while so excellent in their appropriate elements, are, I think, miscast here. Even in this clip, Mr. Tveit doesn't seem as much the vengeant murderer than he does an irritable junior stockbroker. And sadly, I buy Ms. Foster even less in the Lovett role than I did as chipper hooker Sweet Charity. Again, love them both in the right vehicles.
You have got to see the whole show! Aaron’s portrayal creeped me out. If I didn’t see him or didn’t know it was him, I would’ve had some difficulty recognizing it was him. Didn’t sound or look anything like his usual persona.
i agree that tveit is a great actor and if we're going purely off of the acting, then yes he slayed severely as sweeney. but i still don't think he was right for the role 😭 josh groban might sound sweet but aaron tveit sounds *young*. he's the same age as len cariou was when he originated the role on broadway, but he sounds so much younger. which in many ways is a plus, but for sweeney todd its a negative. like, i think if tveit tried he could still pull of young, bright eyed anthony; he is not selling the older, jaded ex convict who just got back from serving hard time in australia. i don't think he brought the gravitas that the role of sweeney todd requires, and i don't think there are many tenors out there who could. and again basically every leading role is written for a tenor, so can they just stay in their lanes like...
Tveit might have pulled off an excellent Pirelli, who requires crazy leaps and extremely high notes... but Sweeney is just far more interesting as a character - and Pirelli is not a lead role.
Never would have taken Sweeney as anything but a baritone, but after I saw Tveit live, I'd be hard pressed to ever look back at a better Todd. Edit: Let me reiterate...seeing this show live was transformative.
The fashion lately to have only light voices and/or absolute belts is wearying. The most pleasant or fascinating part of the human vocal ability is not often in extreme sounds, and while an intensely difficult vocal feat can be used to great effect, I find that the most intimate, moving, and/or visceral portrayals of most characters occurs during what is fairly comfortable and easy for developed singers-which is still a pretty wide range of notes and volumes. Especially when they are cast in roles that suit them! But to hear a singer struggle does not serve the story or the music well, in my opinion, and it is strange to write or cast in such a way that heavily risks it.
That makes perfect sense. Strange they wouldn't still play eight shows and have the alternate go on for one of the shows (á la Julie Benko in Funny Girl)
With his high notes, I think he would have done an even better Pirelli, at least vocally... Anthony is a nice guy, but a little bit bland, and there's little where he can shine both vocally and as an actor.
A lot of people would disagree but I would be inclined to agree because he never really uses a super full register in his higher voice and he has incredible ease in his lower register that most tenors (myself included) do not possess. A lyric baritone who certainly would have the capacity to train as a tenor, but likely a baritone nonetheless.
OK folks, Sweeney is written for a bass-baritone. Josh Groban is NOT a bass-baritone. It's not Josh Groban's personal sweetness isn't why he doesn't bring the menace the role requires, it's because he neither has the weight nor the color the role requires. And yes, Tveit is a better singing/actor and at least he's singing in transposed keys that work better for his voice but why not just actually cast the role for a singer it was written for?
I think Tveit is a fine performer with a beautiful voice….here he is vocally challenged and seems to be rage from the beginning of the show. I think that Sweeney’s anger is deep…and she slowly releases it as the ahow goes on. The anger is this clip is almost scene chewing…the flailing arms and body jerkiness is not the body movements of a man who has perfectly calculated his return to London for revenge. Ill wait for a baritone to return to the role. Great analysis!
His anger/madness does evolve. When the show opens, he is low key, very dark, but not as emotive. That's the purpose of this song--he lets the anger out.
How about next video you WATCH THE WHOLE GODDAMN THING FIRST THEN OFFER OBSERVATIONS. Epiphany is not meant to be heard in chunks. And a Broadway pro can "rasp" (which is not what this is) and scream all the time if they need to, just as a high jumper can leap over and over, or a sprinter can run over and over. That's training. And this is the original key.
Hard disagree. "Not a hundred" sounded good "can assuage me" was off. Also, you got excited about his acting at the end but it was really just empty yelling and a TERRIBLE maniacal laugh. That attempt at crazy laugh was really very amateur. I agree with you that the higher voice gets a pass if everything else is an A+ but everything else was like a C based on this video
This illegal bootlegging helps a lot of people like me become interested in shows enough to fork over tons of cash to Broadway to go down and see the real thing.
In a perfect world, there would be a promo video like Waitress did for most jennas. Realistically the ticket prices are higher than what I paid to see josh/Anna. And I only went to see ST because of ham4ham.
Imagine being mad that Broadway history is being recorded. Also…tons of performers themselves. official social media accounts of Broadway shows, and even TV talk shows use bootlegged footage.
I think he sounds great. He is going for if. I love Aaron Tveit. I also was suprised to see him cast in this. I love the raspy voice for the character. I love an angry scary Sweeney. (Rather the sweet like you said of Groban) but I totally agree Groban has an incredible voice.
You are right that Josh didn’t jump the Octave. Where you notice Tveit is not a baritone is in the reprise of Johanna-when he’s singing against another tenor role. He doesn’t hit those lower notes like Groban did…but the physicality he brings to role, his chemistry with Sutton, the grace of his movements is just incredible . He is so well conditioned for this role…it even looks like he’s bulked up his upper body a bit to handle being pulled from a supine to standing position twice per show (this move actually injured Groban’s shoulder).
George Hearn jumps the octave, I believe that is what is written. It's meant to sound anguished and pained, which by the way it does not at all in Aaron Tveit's voice
Groban is not a baritone either. As somebody who grew up listening to opera and is blessed and cursed with absolute pitch, I cannot notice that audiences who are not familiar with opera call random tenors, even really high ones (e. g. Jeff Buckley) baritones, because they are not acquainted with the real stuff. He's just a somewhat lowish tenor, but does not even come close to what a true baritone is.
@@Donello Hey, here's @YanagiJuniper on a different account to avoid and create confusion simultaneously. I am a student of classical music, training as a dramatic tenor. I will tell you right now that your conclusion is incorrect. Josh Groban calls himself a baritone and has all the hallmarks of a lyric baritone. He actually has some classical training himself. If you pay attention, though he has an incredible voice, his high notes are very frequently outside of his fullest register, which in fact doesn't sound much like a tenor at all. While there is considerable overlap between baritones and tenors, something any opera singer worth their salt will tell you, most people did fit squarely into one or the other. Josh Groban is most certainly a baritone. Now he's not a bass-baritone, which is what most people who think they know classical music but actually don't think a baritone is. Believe it or not, baritones are supposed to go high! Many of them even have the capacity for high C's, albeit not to the extent of a tenor voice. I would argue that a lot of people who aren't well acquainted with classical music wrongly assume any man that can sing high is a tenor. The reality is that baritones also sing rather high. In fact, here is a recording of a famous baritone (who frequently played bass-baritone roles) singing Nessun Dorma, a huge, high, dramatic tenor aria, in the original key. ua-cam.com/video/1QYlBxA4xXQ/v-deo.html
@@WillowPolangco-Kenney Hello. Thanks for you reply and for the Timothy Nolen performance of “Nessun dorma”. I really appreciated the guy. By the way, I don't consider the 3.5 minutes and two stanzas of this aria as “huge”, especially in comparison with certain Wagner monologues. Two stanzas and about 3 minutes are standard in a typical Puccini tenor romanza. Cf. e. g. “Recondita armonia”, “E lucevan le stelle”, “Ch'ella mi creda” or, in the same opera, “Non piangere, Liù”. Difficult: yes. Dramatic: mostly, even though the aria has been sung by lyrical voices as well - and the more dramatic parts are found e. g. in the riddle scene or in the duet with Turandot.
Now that I'm through with the ceremonial part, I'll address the contentious topic. My answer to you has become very long, so please excuse that and take your time to read and, if you wish, to reply.
I'm fairly well acquainted with the baritone repertoire and also with the baritone voice as such, even though I'm a light lyric tenor myself (I did take voice lessons with the intention of becoming a professional singer, but ultimately went into a different direction). If you know the history of voice classifications, then it should be no secret to you that the baritone voice as an independent voice type, intermediate between tenor and bass, emerged about the 1830ies, diverging from the bass, so the idea that “baritones are supposed to go high” stands on somewhat shaky grounds, even if in later literature there are some examples - but a solid B flat to be taken in full voice is unheard of in classical baritone literature, even though some exceptionally gifted baritone singers did interpolate it in actual performances: I think a Verdi baritone (Cappuccilli? Milnes?) interpolated it in “Attila” or, in any case, in an early Verdi opera. What singers do when they vocalise is a different thing altogether and does not really count: you have to be able to vocalise higher than the highest notes you sing in actual performances. So far I've yet to hear a baritone high C either in performance or in vocalisation, which leads me to doubt your claim that “many of them have the capacity for high C's”.
There are a few antecedents to the 1830ies baritone as a consistent phenomenon, like the Rossini Figaro, who's got quite a few high Gs and whose cavatina has been occasionally sung by tenors, but e. g. in Bellini and Donizetti, the baritones rarely have to go above F or G flat, and the tessitura is still relatively low (there are some exceptions when former tenors changed their vocal fach, like Abayaldos in “Dom Sébastien”, who's fiendishly high for a normal baritone even though he does not have any truly high notes). The Verdi baritone is usually quite high. Later, some authors, when composing for specific singers, wrote high notes above the high G, but a high A flat is something that occurs only extremely rarely in classical baritone literature. There's an unwritten A flat in the “Pagliacci” prologue and there are some in Tchaikovsky and Rimsky-Korsakov, the latter having some baritone parts that could be actually sung by a low tenor, in view of their tessitura. If I'm not mistaken, a written A to be sung in full voice is only found in Jago's drinking song in Verdi's “Otello” (I'll leave out classical modern 20th-century opera like “Wozzeck”, because the vocal writing there is something else). The French used to cultivate some intermediate voice types. E. g. the Duke of Rothsay in Bizet's “La jolie fille de Perth” can be sung either by a baritone or a tenor, according to the composer, and there is the famous voice type called baryton-martin, whose most representative part is Pelléas, written in violin clef, who's also has been sung both by baritones and tenors, though baritones neatly prevail - I guess the baryton-martin is something like the heir of the French Baroque voice type called taille, which by modern standards can be classified either as a high baritone or as a low tenor. On the other hand, especially Wagner wrote some tenor parts like Tristan or Siegmund that over big stretches (e. g. Siegmund before “Winterstürme”, which is almost the entire first act) are written in what is really a baritone tessitura, and there are some roles like Mime in “Siegfried” or many of the roles that Rossini composed for Andrea Nozzari that go as low as A2b (modern Rossini tenors mostly avoid them).
I'm acquainted with two baritones singing at the same opera house, one of whom, a dramatic one, has been called a bass in some reviews, while the other, having a somewhat higher and more lyrical voice, has sung Oppenheimer in “Doctor Atomic”, a part that contains about 30 high Gs (that are written really well for his voice, he told me). Among historical examples, Fischer-Dieskau often sang Schubert & Schumann Lieder in the original tessitura for high voice (some of which are also demanding in terms of low notes, which many a tenor often does not deliver in good quality). When he got older, his voice sounded almost too bright and thin for a baritone (which is why my late father considered him a lazy tenor), but in young age, like e. g. in the famous Furtwängler recording of “Tristan und Isolde”, he does not yet have that tenorish sound. Among some friends and acquaintances of mine, there happen to be some tenors whose low registers would make the envy of many a baritone. One of them, a big-voiced high tenor, was at first misclassified as a deep bass, used to be able to go down as low as C2. When I met him, he was no longer able to sing bass, but the baritone low register and the “bass F” were no problem at all. On the other hand, there also were/are singers who, while being able to sustain a very high tessitura, didn't or don't possess stable high notes. An example would be Tito Schipa.
So the deciding factor for me is not the ability to sing isolated high notes, even though they may be indicative as well, but voice colour & weight, tessitura and, especially in untrained singers, the passaggio. And this brings us back to the subject of discussion, i. e. Josh Groban. If he were a true lyric baritone, comparable voices would be e. g. Thomas Hampson or, among older singers, Hermann Prey and Pavel Lisitsian. Yet all of them, even Hampson, who by many has been called a tenor and whose voice in the last decade or so (don't know if he's still performing) has showed characteristica similar to those of Fischer-Dieskau in his late recordings, have a timbre and other vocal characteristics that are markedly different from Groban's. I don't hear the lyric baritone at all, but rather a full lyric tenor with some spinto potential, ideal for e. g. Cavaradossi. Groban is not only able to sing single high notes up to B flat, but he's also able to sustain tenor tessitura effortlessly in many of his songs, some of which insist heavily on E4-F4 or even F4-G4b (e. g. “You Are The Only Place”). The adverb “effortlessly” is key here: a tenor's upper middle range is the high register of a baritone and, consequently, the energy one has to put in to sustain the same notes is different for the two types of voice. In some of his songs (e. g. “Canto alla vita”) I also hear him artificially darkening and adding unnecessary weight to his voice in the low and lower middlerange, where he also sounds guttural - and doesn't display a good legato, especially in the low register. On the other hand, sometimes, he's barely audible below the low C, e. g. in “L'ultima notte”, which also speaks for a tenor voice. So my overall opinion on Groban's vocal classification remains the same:not a baritone - not even a lyric one --, but a true tenor.
@@Donello Hey, so, I tried to respond to every individual part of this reply, but it felt wrong. So, here's attempt number two. You clearly know what you're talking about. I thought at first that you might not, just because you said you "listened to a lot of opera" when you grew up. You have demonstrated that you actually do know quite a good deal. I do not necessarily agree with everything you have said, but it comes from an educated place. The most important thing to address is really just the last thing you talk about-- vocal colors being indicative of voice part. The reason I find this to be important is because of the material of a composer you mentioned earlier-- One Richard Wagner. The tenor roles he wrote were for an especially rare kind of tenor called a heldentenor-- which you definitely know, but I'm sure some people reading this exchange might not-- that was so dark and rich in color such that they may often be mistaken for baritones. I would argue, on average, that a lyric baritone is a lighter voice than a heldentenor. This is to demonstrate that the subject of fachs is often more nuanced than where the break is or what notes are effortless. I would argue that most male singers with a good few years of classical training should be able to effortlessly produce a lot of "high notes". The main person I had in mind, by the way, when mentioning baritones with high C's was the excellent Michael Spyres, certainly naturally a baritone but oddly enough more known for his work in the tenor repetoire. That is what Josh Groban is to me. I do think that a baritone voice exists between a bass and a tenor. If used to not be a concept, as you also alluded to, and many men who were most certainly baritones trained as basses or tenors because those were just the only things they had options for. Josh Groban certainly can sing very high very effortlessly-- as a matter of fact, a dramatic tenor myself, I find some of the notes he sings with ease to sometimes not immediately come to me. However, I would say that the strongest evidence against your case is not anything I can say that directly counters your very well educated and thought out argument, but rather something I have already stated. Josh Groban considers himself a baritone. That and he certainly has a better low G than any tenor his age I've heard. You're correct that under a C3 he is often quiet, but many lyric baritones or baryton-martins don't necessarily have the strength of a bass-baritone that low. Dmitri Hvorostovsky, for example, who I don't think anybody could argue was a true baritone, did not sound particularly strong when he was scraping the bottom of his range like that. You are also correct that Josh Groban has the capacity to sing frequently in the tenor tessitura-- however, I do think that most sufficiently capable baritones, some not even necessarily of the lyric variety, are more than capable of same. I honestly think you are more knowledgeable about this topic than me, though. I don't necessarily feel inclined to agree with you, but my argument is looking a whole lot weaker. Josh Groban is, to be certain, very tenor-ish. I think that baritones and tenors are really more closely related than a lot of people realize. I, as well as basically every dramatic tenor I have spoken to, was initially thought to be "a baritone with a great upper extension" or something similar. I am at a bit of a loss, as the real deciding factors were just what you have laid out so well: not being audible below a low C, effortlessly remaining within the tenor tessitura that would be more in the area of climactic high notes for a baritone, a somewhat lighter natural color. I still am often mistaken for a baritone, in fact, even when I'm singing very very high, just because baritones are often thought to be the darker voice as a rule. I just find myself completely drawing a blank on why Josh Groban would call himself a baritone and all of his teachers throughout his life would seemingly agree he was a baritone. The more I think about it, the more I think it's possible that he somehow has just been repeatedly misidentified.
As a bit of an aside, my personal grievance with Aaron Tveit as Sweeney is not him being a tenor necessarily, but rather his lack of really any strength at all in his lower register. He is a contemporary singer who basically always just sings high. I mean, he has up to at least a D#5 from what I have heard. He sings so dang high and light so dang often and his voice is kind of just stuck like that. Another tenor who has done it that I actually enjoyed a lot was Michael Cerveris-- although he is another one like Groban that could be debated to be either a baritone or a tenor. I suppose, at the end of the day, classification of this sort doesn't really apply well to anything other than classical music, and sometimes may not even really apply to certain individuals in classical music, but it is very interesting to discuss.
Thank you for your thought, input, and time.
I saw Aaron Tveit the day before yesterday and I went in with a lot of reservations as a bit of a Sweeney Todd purist. Having said that, Aaron realy blew me away with his performance. It is beautifully acted and he has a strong, rich lower register in the areas that have not been transposed. I actually hope to see him again to see how his performance evolves.
Someone will film it again so we will have more material to watch
I wish I lived closer to New York so I could see this😭 Aaron and Sutton in the same cast is amazing
I saw Aaron live. I was so nervous because of him being a tenor. I was completely BLOWN AWAY. He was terrifying and yet somehow he humanized Sweeney at the same time. And his voice was just incredible. The videos don’t do it justice
Sutton Foster knocked it out of the park. She stole the show. Not enough superlatives exist to describe how amazing she is in this show.
❤❤❤❤ period
I honestly liked her more than Annaleigh Ashford! Wish that somehow, some way, Josh and Sutton could've performed together. I don't dislike Aaron, but Josh just blows him out of the water imo
I saw this last week and thought Aaron was fantastic. He was scary. He really got to flex his acting chops in this show.
I know exactly what you mean about Josh not seeming like a very convincing murder. 😂 He does seem like a such a sweet person in real life, and it’s very important to remember that he’s a singer first and actor second. Unfortunately in some shows you can’t always get a perfectly well rounded singer/actor/dancer; one skillset shines a little brighter than the other two. I had some very slight notes for Josh Groban’s acting during the performance I saw him in, but I actually liked his portrayal a lot. I tend to like the portrayals of Sweeney that are very stoic, unassuming at first, but this growing unsettling presence in the corner of a room. Not so much the type that would scratch their vocal cords, hell at your doorstep, fit of rage character. By my personal preference, Josh Groban played the type of Sweeney I enjoy more and his voice VERY much matched up with that portrayal. I saw him on his second to last weekend on stage and his voice was still IMMACULATE. 😩🤌❤
On first impressions seeing and hearing Aaron Tveit as Sweeney, I’d actually really, REALLY like to see him in the roll Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde from (duh) “Jekyll & Hyde”. I would love to hear him sing “This is the Moment” and “Alive.”
I wouldn't want to meet this Aaron in a dark alley. I read somewhere it was only half a note higher then the original. I do hope he isn't hurting his voice, i would think he normally takes good care of it. He couldn't have done all of the catch me if you can shows if he wasn't good to his voice.
I hadn’t heard this before and I have to say I like it. I grew up listening to Len Cariou and George Hearn absolutely *murder* (pun intended) their voices, and that seems right for a song in which a man completely breaks. Aaron Tveit’s higher voice also cuts through the orchestration really well, kind of bouncing off the low musical stings like he’s on a trampoline of insanity. The lower parts sound somehow less crazed, like they’re his last fingertip-hold on sense before it’s utterly ripped away. I love his commitment and physicality (I’m also a fan, which helps 😆)
Love your analysis as always, and I hope your gig goes well 🥰
"Trampoline of insanity" 😂😂😂
neither Hearn nor Cariou murdered their voices. Good grief.
Saw it yesterday, absolutely incredible? I think he definitely figured out the character.
I was skeptical, but his low notes in this clip surprised me. It's not the Sweeney I'm used to, but I can see the potential of this being great too. (Can't judge from one little clip.) It's true though, that Josh Groban and Aaron Tveit don't immediately look like they would murder like Len Cariou and George Hearn that can just do it with a stare.
Hi Mateo, I have been waiting for someone to comment on Aaron’s performance since I saw the show on his opening night on 2/9/24. I’m a huge fan and just knew he would not have taken this role if he didn’t believe he could do it well. From things he has said in various interviews, he’s been practicing his Sweeney brand of nastiness and insanity for years (to himself, not performing it!) since he has long wished for this opportunity! His acting in this show, in my opinion, is beyond expectation. He makes his own choices and is so credible. He is scary, explosive, menacing and literally looks and sounds insane! I was worried about the key and was so impressed with how well he used his voice to express his fury. When I heard the Epiphany video of 2/15/24 I could tell already how he has settled into the role and has made some subtle but important adjustments. On his opening night I think he was not adequately miked to be heard well enough over the orchestra. I suspect that was corrected and his voice sounded fuller and he was more at ease with the lower register. You have got to go to see him and then review the show‼️
Thank you for sharing all these details!! I really appreciate it!!
Would be interested to know your thoughts on Joe Locke's vocals in the role of Tobias in Sweeney Todd. It's his Broadway debut and he's been getting - rightly - 100% positive reviews. He's said to be singing in Sondheim's original key (I'm afraid I wouldn't know either way), which is getting huge praise. Just wondered what you thought - especially for a Broadway debutant - of Joe's voice on its own and next to more seasoned performers.
We saw it yesterday, and they are both excellent! I dropped a low note in one of the early songs, but overall was top notch. Lives him in Moulin Rouge as well, recognizing that it was definitely a role for a tenor.
I saw it yesterday too!
I agree with you about wishing the final note was a little more 'hearty', but I was expecting you to attribute that to the vocal damage he'd just been inflicting on himself with ' but the WORK WAITS!' It sounds like not even he can immediately recover a connected sound after such a throaty savaging.
If you listen to the whole review by Matteo he explains how Aaron can sing the crazy, angry parts and recover to sing on and not damage his voice. Which isn’t to say it doesn’t get exhausted by end of show!!
I waited specifically for this casting to see it (went on their second night). Aaron is my favorite and he was fantastic but Sutton Foster was sheer perfection. HILARIOUS. Her gift for timing and physical comedy is exactly what the role demands. The only thing I didn’t like is that they walk back into hell holding hands. Oh and that weirdly she appears to step into the oven. ???
There is some cutting edge research being done at the University of Utah showing that vocal distortion can be achieved by the upper larynx and you can sing loudly this way without engaging the true vocal folds or damaging them. This presumably has been used unconsciously by many Metal music singers, who have demonstrably preserved their non-distorted singing voices after decades of hours of distorted singing on stage.
The Opera singer Elizabeth Zharoff, who has a reaction channel as The Charismatic Voice, and was introduced to Metal singers by her fans, has spearheaded a kickstarter to fund further research by the University of Utah into upper laryngeal singing. She’s not only interested in techniques that opera singers can use to preserve their voices, but also the potential for vocal therapists to help people with damaged vocal folds regain or improve their ability to speak and sing.
I have just found your channel and I'm fascinated by your breakdown of everything. I'm a singer...but not musical theater so it's quite interesting to hear all the analysis. I adore Aaron Tveit and had the priviledge of seeing him perform in Moulin Rouge. I would love your analysis of him singing Roxanne with his opt up. He makes it seem so efffortless. Thanks in advance!
His whole performance, he’s got a straight face.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. You look at this performance and he’s got a straight face no matter what he does. And it just KILLS the whole mood.
There’s recordings of the finale ballad, and he comes out to sing the final “attend the tale” covered in blood and all. And he looks like he’s bored. I hate it. It just kills it.
Honestly? It seems like he’s working. Like it’s a job for him, a chore to get up on stage and sing this song.
Best epiphany, hands down? George Hearn. He’s got the BEST emotion. And his vocal control, from screaming one second, to literally whisper singing the next notes. “Nor a hundred, can assuage me” is the best part. He screams that and sings it. It’s the best.
Aaron is the worst sweeney. He was the absolute worst choice for sweeney. And that’s a hill I’ll die on.
George Hearn will always be. The best Sweeney. He comes out on the final “attend the tale” fists clenched, eyes locked on the audience. And he’s MAD. Storming off to the back of the stage, slamming that door and the stage goes dark.
This Sweeney revival is not what is could have been. It’s good, but not the best. Josh was not the right choice either.
I also despise how lighthearted they’ve made this show. The constant stopping to let the jokes sink in, and the flopping around on “by the sea” is so infuriating.
This show has its funny bits. Yes. But it’s by no means a fall out of your chair slapstick comedy. It’s a horror show. And it’s gotten out of hand.
The fan girls? Are another thing, that’s insane.
This is the first video of yours I've seen, and I'm impressed with the analysis here. Spot on. And Tveit's version of "Epiphany" is much better than I expected, though that last note is a little disappointing -- doesn't resonate as powerfully as it could/should. I'm interested in hearing more, as, like many, I'm not at all sure that either Tveit or Foster are perfectly cast. Both are talented and can be great in the right vehicle, but I don't think either are great in everything I've seen.
Try to listen to some of the audio from 2/15/24. I heard a big improvement in the richness of his voice.
Though I was skeptical about the decision of Aaron as Sweeney, specially for what you mentioned of Him being a really high Tenor, I've Listened some of His renditions in the show and it's a different Sweeney from the Groban's, Lewis' or Cariu's versions, but still sounds pretty nice.
I see it more like the Johnny Depp versión in the film, more light on the voice, but still pretty scary.
I still think the Broadway producers should Cast baritones or basses for roles written for them, but this is quite an interesting decition
This entire discourse is so fascinating to me as an opera singer where it is verboten to even THINK of singing outside of your fach in a majority of houses-as a lyric soprano, I could never sing Dalilah despite actually being able to sing her role very easily because I’m not a mezzo. I have very strong opinions on the fach system and I like that Broadway isn’t so strict. HOWEVER, Sweeney is not a role that should go to a tenor. I can hardly hear Tveit over the orchestration even with a mic. Sweeney is written very much like an opera and the tessitura is so important to the characters; the vocal quality of Sweeney is a character in itself, as is the vocal quality of other characters like Johanna (which I’ve played and was told I’m not the typical casting choice because the color of my voice is too dark for a character that is supposed to sound like a bird.)
I think that for a show like Sweeney, vocal fach is essential to casting these roles. Yes, a tenor can sing it but it will not cut through the orchestra the way a baritone would.
Definitely not a casting choice I like.
I agree his voice is drowned out at times especially the lower notes. However, not sure which videos you’ve listened to but I think the sound was adjusted (listen to videos a few days into the run) and Aaron’s mic was likely turned up to balance things. His lower notes when you can hear them are used to further his transition to a maniacal, out of control man.
As a dark baritone myself, yours is an observation I completely agree with.
Appreciate the video, but you gotta stop saying "not being careful with his voice", lol. Distortion (and it's various "types") is a technique that can absolutely be developed + refined in a healthy way; it has nothing to do with range. Most people just never learn the right ways to do it.
That aside: I like Tveit, but it *is* a bummer they couldn't find a baritone to stunt cast instead. He sounds alright, and his low notes surprisingly are there, but from the other clips I've seen his acting suffers a lot when he stays down there for a while (like in Johanna Act 2).
Josh Groban was more of a "stunt cast" over Aaron,,, he's not really known outside of Broadway. That's where he got his start. I saw him this weekend and he was great.
When my kid's high school changed staff for their theater department, they started the new regime with Sweeney Todd. Down with those old tropes! However, the usual high school casting was still in play, so they ended up with the senior tenor who was expecting the lead. The show was okay for what it was, but for Tenor Sweeney it was good that it was a short run. His voice recoved in time.
I saw the performance Aaron was awesome
watched him live in NYC on april 27th 2024 he was amazing same with sutton foster both did a perfect job sat in front row and he was just amazing
Don't forget the amazing performance of Brian Stokes Mitchell as Sweeney in the Kennedy Center Sondheim fest. You can find it on youtube.
I saw their second performance (first matinee). I loved everything about Aaron except epiphany. His lyrical singing was beautiful in things like Johanna and pretty women. But when he tried to be angry he attacked the words in a way I wasn’t a fan of and it made it sound like he was blowing raspberries. I think part of that problem might be the sound system in Sweeney is using? I saw it twice (once in orchestra and once mezz) and both times Daniel Yearwood sounded ridiculously tinny.
I felt some of that on 2/9. I think the sound was off. The orchestra was too loud and/or Aaron and Sutton too, were under miked. Seems by a few days later it was corrected.
I'm curious to hear aaron's entrance as that's my favorite part. I would like to go but ticket prices are crazy due to the limited run. I enjoyed josh's voice but the acting wasn't believable as a bitter, broken killer. I always say sweeney is a pitbull and josh is a Labrador retriever. I suspect josh is too laid back to tap into the crazy. However regardless of doubts I had about his range, I thought aaron could bring the crazy. I was just in NYC in January so trying to resist FOMO.
You can never hear the first lines anyway because when he appears everyone starts screaming. They did it to Josh Groban too lol
There have been sales for tickets. Especially if you don’t mind sitting further away.
also... now Anthony, Tobias, Beadle, Adolfo, AND Sweeney are tenors... every character is exibiting a bright sound... no contrast. It all becomes the the same sound all across the board. And they cut the Judge's song so we don't even have that bass moment. Ugh!
So true!!! Thanks for watching Marcus ❤️
Two incredible Broadway talents both in this lead. Aaron Tveit played the roll more broadly; Josh Groban was nevertheless menacing in the extreme. Josh Groban's voice is as incredible an instrument as I have ever heard, and he uses it to bring true menace to the role. It was somehow more terrifying to me to see someone so outwardly restrained but evoking such hatred and menace in his voice. I questioned whether Groban could play evil, but at one point with Groban I actually had goosebumps and physically recoiled as he moved towards the edge of the stage. I have never heard any performer so perfectly evoke emotion as Josh Groban. As sweet as he is, if I had heard the timbre of that voice in a dark street I would have run. He said he wanted to play the role as a normal man driven insane by grief and hatred--it worked! Likewise the anger and frustration he displayed in Great Comet singing "Anatole". Both of these stars are incredible, but that beautiful, powerful and perfectly used baritone voice of Josh Groban is transcendent.
I was doubtful, even as a Tveit fan, but good dang; is there anything he can't do?
While it is true that Aaron Tveit is not a baritone, but a really high tenor, Josh Groban is not a baritone either. He's a tenor, too, even though not quite as high one as Tveit. Consequently, with his somewhat darker and meatier voice, he manages better in that low tessitura.
Bitter aging alto here, this drives me crazy. I'm so tired of everything being pitched so damn high. I've lost my upper range, so I've had to learn to live with singing everything written for women an octave down.
So what does he do in the my friends reprise before pretty women? I remember that feeling low for me, a baritone.
love this xx
“The work waits” almost sounds like harsh vocals like in metal music.
I enjoyed your comments very much! 😊
I really Loved you insight on this - thanks so much - subscriging to you
My very first Broadway show was the original cast, Len Cariou and Dame Angela Lansbury, and frankly, I've been chasing that high ever since. That said, both current leads, while so excellent in their appropriate elements, are, I think, miscast here. Even in this clip, Mr. Tveit doesn't seem as much the vengeant murderer than he does an irritable junior stockbroker. And sadly, I buy Ms. Foster even less in the Lovett role than I did as chipper hooker Sweet Charity. Again, love them both in the right vehicles.
You have got to see the whole show! Aaron’s portrayal creeped me out. If I didn’t see him or didn’t know it was him, I would’ve had some difficulty recognizing it was him. Didn’t sound or look anything like his usual persona.
i agree that tveit is a great actor and if we're going purely off of the acting, then yes he slayed severely as sweeney. but i still don't think he was right for the role 😭 josh groban might sound sweet but aaron tveit sounds *young*. he's the same age as len cariou was when he originated the role on broadway, but he sounds so much younger. which in many ways is a plus, but for sweeney todd its a negative. like, i think if tveit tried he could still pull of young, bright eyed anthony; he is not selling the older, jaded ex convict who just got back from serving hard time in australia. i don't think he brought the gravitas that the role of sweeney todd requires, and i don't think there are many tenors out there who could. and again basically every leading role is written for a tenor, so can they just stay in their lanes like...
Tveit might have pulled off an excellent Pirelli, who requires crazy leaps and extremely high notes... but Sweeney is just far more interesting as a character - and Pirelli is not a lead role.
“We’ve heard him sing Cs, we’ve heard him sing B#s”
Never would have taken Sweeney as anything but a baritone, but after I saw Tveit live, I'd be hard pressed to ever look back at a better Todd.
Edit: Let me reiterate...seeing this show live was transformative.
The fashion lately to have only light voices and/or absolute belts is wearying. The most pleasant or fascinating part of the human vocal ability is not often in extreme sounds, and while an intensely difficult vocal feat can be used to great effect, I find that the most intimate, moving, and/or visceral portrayals of most characters occurs during what is fairly comfortable and easy for developed singers-which is still a pretty wide range of notes and volumes. Especially when they are cast in roles that suit them! But to hear a singer struggle does not serve the story or the music well, in my opinion, and it is strange to write or cast in such a way that heavily risks it.
7 shows a week was Josh’s contract, so I’ve heard.
That makes perfect sense. Strange they wouldn't still play eight shows and have the alternate go on for one of the shows (á la Julie Benko in Funny Girl)
Johnny Depp sung in tenor
I think he should have played Anthony instead of Sweeney
With his high notes, I think he would have done an even better Pirelli, at least vocally... Anthony is a nice guy, but a little bit bland, and there's little where he can shine both vocally and as an actor.
He could have gotten some heavy metal style vocal work done. I know that you can flex your voice with different techniques 🤷
Okay, I am a fan but let a Baritone have a bloody role for goodnes sakes.
Ben Platt is a baritone
A lot of people would disagree but I would be inclined to agree because he never really uses a super full register in his higher voice and he has incredible ease in his lower register that most tenors (myself included) do not possess. A lyric baritone who certainly would have the capacity to train as a tenor, but likely a baritone nonetheless.
OK folks, Sweeney is written for a bass-baritone. Josh Groban is NOT a bass-baritone. It's not Josh Groban's personal sweetness isn't why he doesn't bring the menace the role requires, it's because he neither has the weight nor the color the role requires. And yes, Tveit is a better singing/actor and at least he's singing in transposed keys that work better for his voice but why not just actually cast the role for a singer it was written for?
he may be amazing but this choice pissed me off as a baritone
I don’t hate it, but I definitely prefer Sweeney as a baritone.
I think Tveit is a fine performer with a beautiful voice….here he is vocally challenged and seems to be rage from the beginning of the show. I think that Sweeney’s anger is deep…and she slowly releases it as the ahow goes on. The anger is this clip is almost scene chewing…the flailing arms and body jerkiness is not the body movements of a man who has perfectly calculated his return to London for revenge. Ill wait for a baritone to return to the role. Great analysis!
Epiphany is actually like the one song where Sweeney’s unbridled madness is supposed to be on display.
His anger/madness does evolve. When the show opens, he is low key, very dark, but not as emotive. That's the purpose of this song--he lets the anger out.
How about next video you WATCH THE WHOLE GODDAMN THING FIRST THEN OFFER OBSERVATIONS. Epiphany is not meant to be heard in chunks.
And a Broadway pro can "rasp" (which is not what this is) and scream all the time if they need to, just as a high jumper can leap over and over, or a sprinter can run over and over. That's training. And this is the original key.
Whoa just take it easy man
it is in fact a half step higher than the original key…
Hard disagree. "Not a hundred" sounded good "can assuage me" was off. Also, you got excited about his acting at the end but it was really just empty yelling and a TERRIBLE maniacal laugh. That attempt at crazy laugh was really very amateur.
I agree with you that the higher voice gets a pass if everything else is an A+ but everything else was like a C based on this video
Great analysis but not sure why you’re supporting illegal bootleging. Normalizing this trash behavior in the theater is concerning.
This illegal bootlegging helps a lot of people like me become interested in shows enough to fork over tons of cash to Broadway to go down and see the real thing.
In a perfect world, there would be a promo video like Waitress did for most jennas. Realistically the ticket prices are higher than what I paid to see josh/Anna. And I only went to see ST because of ham4ham.
Imagine being mad that Broadway history is being recorded.
Also…tons of performers themselves. official social media accounts of Broadway shows, and even TV talk shows use bootlegged footage.
I think he sounds great. He is going for if. I love Aaron Tveit. I also was suprised to see him cast in this. I love the raspy voice for the character. I love an angry scary Sweeney. (Rather the sweet like you said of Groban) but I totally agree Groban has an incredible voice.
I just want to say that I turned this video off at 4:35, after saying "Shut up and let us hear the performers" about 20 times.
why did you click on a reaction video then?