This is a perfect example of how you should not do return air ducts. I hope the producers of this video learn to do things the right way in the future and improve their methods. Think about the return air static pressure when you're done- do those holes allow air to flow smoothly? It doesn't matter because you should not have supply or return air going through a structure wall or cavity unless it is in a proper duct. Proper ducts are sealed. Even if this was allowable to do like in the video, there was no proper air sealing. I advise anyone looking to do things right to look at national comfort institute. The people producing the video most likely had good intentions, and surely would be open to improvement. Best of luck!
acoustic4037. Atleast It serves as a wrong example. And the national comfort institue only serves contractors or students, the rest of us have to figure it out.
www.nachi.org/building-cavities-supply-return-ducts.htm Says you can do it in certain situations. How important is it that the return air flow smoothly?
I was just gonna say... there are so many errors of construction going on here, thse joists are super compromised, and the plumbing was horrendous... I will be forgetting everything I saw immediately
2009 IRC Section M1601.1.1 Stud wall cavities and spaces between solid floor joists cannot be used as supply-air plenums.In humid climates, a cavity space used as a return-air pathway will pull humid air into the cavity space, possibly encouraging mold growth or the deterioration of building materials, sending that bad air right into the home for the family to breathe. .A cavity space used as a return-air pathway will pull pollutants into the building from unknown sources, it's also pulling a lot of air from the nasty, yucky crawl space below the floor. Nearly all building codes restrict the use of cavity spaces as supply ducts.
I think it’s a great idea, maybe not drilling thru the joists but your describing SUPPLY air, he talking return air. There’s no heat, it’s moving air, filter on both ends. Mold isn’t a concern. I have a wood furnace, very similar senerio this seems much better than no return at all.
Manual D and J says you can use bays as a return path as long as its bigger than required duct dimension. I dont know about holes. Why were they cut. Those holes will cause restriction of air flow. Is it ok to cut holes into joist. Does code vary
“Won’t screw up the structure at all” he says before drilling multiple 4” dia holes right next to each other through a TJI truss. Google: allowable holes trus joist TJI, to see what’s actually allowed by the manufacturer, Weyerhaeuser (They need to be 8” apart, if they’re even allowed for that exact size and series TJI truss, and assuming they’re located more than the minimum distance from the end support point. (see the spec sheet).
TGI joists are designed to be drilled thru at certain areas, but NOT that close to bearing(rimboard). That one joist with all the holes for R.A. should have failed framing inspection.All the holes should have been 12 inches apart.
I'm a newbie at installing duct works and was planning to do a room in my basement. I see lots of comments here by others claiming he did things wrong but he's one of the few videos on UA-cam that actually walks through a process. I appreciate his efforts. Can someone post a link to another video that does a walk through like this? Can i just use 4" or 6" aluminum ducts for an air return? Or does the duct need to be as wide as the area between floor joist? Room size isn't that large. It will be about a 12' by 10' space.
Massive holes cut in two adjoining floor joists. It's amazing how cavalierly plumbers and HVAC people like this guy will destroy structural elements to make their runs.
I'm a hvac guy and would never make such careless mistakes. This video should be deleted horrible advice nothing is done correctly. The biggest mistake is still having combustion air mix with the return which can introduce CO into the air stream.
Engineered I-Beam Rules You can never, ever, ever notch or bore through the top or bottom flange or chord. You can drill 1-1/2 in. holes anywhere in the web. In fact, most have little perforated knockout holes that can be punched out with the swing of a hammer. Drill large holes toward the center of I-beam joists, not toward the ends. Leave at least 1/4 in. (or the amount specified by the manufacturer) of web between the edge of the hole and the flange. Joist Boring Rules Holes must be at least 2 in. from the top and bottom edges of a joist. Maximum hole size is one-third of the joist depth. Joist Notching Rules The maximum depth of a notch at the end of a joist (where it rests on a wall or beam) can’t exceed one-quarter of the joist depth. Maximum notch depth in the outer third of a joist is one-sixth of the joist depth. Limit the length of notches to one-third of the joist depth. No notching in the middle third of a joist.
Is the return "cut" into the back of the furnace? From the looks of it, the return grill is just behind the furnace and not cut into it. And as long as the thermo pan is not used in humid climates, its a good product. But prefer metal panning.
Thank you for the effort to make this helpful, informative, thorough video. However, I believe that the holes you drilled in the engineered floor joist are much too large. They weaken the joist and would never pass inspection in most jurisdictions.
Hello ..I'm really stuck Ihope you can give me some insight. Problem: HVAC guy started got paid never came back. Biggest mistake I ever made . Now can't get no one to finish since its started . Main trunk supply is hung (8x16 reduced to 8x14) return holes are cut in floor above where the return duct needs mounted yet. So I have to get return to side of Horizontal furnace. I was going to pan floor joist cavity which is 14"1/2 X9" 1/2 1750 cfm out of furnace. Is that enough airflow for return? 3 Ton unit btw .. Thank you
I'm looking at this cause someone did this to my house I just bought .I need to fix it cause I'm getting basement odor coming thre the air duct to the upstairs . Its musty smell.
Please do not do your return like this. it's a fucking mess after a 8-10 years of running. I'm redoing mine at home right now and it's not worth it trust me
Wrong you never modified floor joists or other obstructional from the house just one hole already ruined the integrity of the joist and you already have 5 or 7 holes bad idea
I guess all of the sheet metal guys hate this installation? You really should really be complaining about the architect who obviously gave no thought for the location and design of the HVAC return air in his house design. Unfortunately, the installer has to weigh structural integrity versus proper air flow to the HVAC system and most installers won't care about structural integrity. Many years ago, Carrier gave a class on static pressure, and the instructor claimed the biggest problem in most HVAC systems is an undersized return air duct.
well im no expert, I was told Romex cable is not allowed to be in plenum spaces and drilling at the flange face of that joist with many holes turns it into swiss cheese and weakens that structural member.
I give you kudos for attempting to seal your work. But why bother? The air return will just be sucked in anywhere there wood joins another object or where it warps. So basically you just spent all your time make a system that pulls air from the basement that looks good instead of a system that actually aids in the air movement into a room. I have a system like this and you know what the air barely moves into a room, why because all the return won't hold pressure causing the least resisting air to be pulled into the main unit from whatever crack is closest. I've attempted to seal and seal and seal my returns but these types of returns are garbage.
Excellent example of professional plumbers pretending to be HVAC technicians , not one whit of examining how much return air volume needed , nothing. Shoot from the hip it might work! What building code?
why is there is no insulation ? it's a cooled air when they meet a normal air 90 % it will moist because of condensation and it can damage your'e ceiling
I don't think you're suppose to drill all those large holes in the joist like that. It will lose its structural strength and may cause the floor to cave in in that area.
💀💀💀 not only is it a mess with the structure, but the return should never be open to the wood structure, since a fire will deliver smoke to the whole house and the return air will feed the fire throughout the whole joist bay. This man should take this down. I think We should sue him for incorrect practices information. Poor home owner.
I really think you should take this video down. I lost count of all the errors in construction/destruction and simple common sense. Although your intention is good, there will be air quality, furnace efficiency, and structural issues in the future. This is so much like what the "sheet metal guys" did in my 1972 home. Dust and dirt on all of those unsealed joints, poor furnace performance, and constant sore throats and coughing.
Those holes are so illegal it’s not even funny, anybody doing this yourself, don’t just put 10 4” holes in a line like he did. That joist is now damaged and won’t last a lifetime. Check your codes and do it right, never do HVAC that a plumber teaches you, cause they don’t know shit.
Wow none of you understand what this man is doing.There is nothing wrong with this video or his procedure.The holes in the webbing is fine AHJ would pass in heart beat.Nor do you have an understanding of air flow dynamics.
Speaking of WOW! You have no idea of hole spacing in TJI's. Just go look at a TJI manufacturer for hole size and spacing. The only way AHJ would pass this in a heartbeat is if they did a drive-by inspection!
This is a perfect example of how you should not do return air ducts. I hope the producers of this video learn to do things the right way in the future and improve their methods. Think about the return air static pressure when you're done- do those holes allow air to flow smoothly? It doesn't matter because you should not have supply or return air going through a structure wall or cavity unless it is in a proper duct. Proper ducts are sealed. Even if this was allowable to do like in the video, there was no proper air sealing. I advise anyone looking to do things right to look at national comfort institute. The people producing the video most likely had good intentions, and surely would be open to improvement. Best of luck!
acoustic4037. Atleast It serves as a wrong example. And the national comfort institue only serves contractors or students, the rest of us have to figure it out.
www.nachi.org/building-cavities-supply-return-ducts.htm
Says you can do it in certain situations. How important is it that the return air flow smoothly?
3 holes for whole house return? Seem like not enough.
I was just gonna say... there are so many errors of construction going on here, thse joists are super compromised, and the plumbing was horrendous... I will be forgetting everything I saw immediately
This is the way to do air returns to line more money In your pockets. Normally I see air returns covered by drywall to even line more money.
Ok, I'm not an HVAC certified person, but I'm like WTF??? Glad to see everyone else here is in agreement of what not to do
2009 IRC
Section M1601.1.1 Stud wall cavities and spaces between solid floor joists cannot be used as supply-air plenums.In humid climates, a cavity space used as a return-air pathway will pull humid air into the cavity space, possibly encouraging mold growth or the deterioration of building materials, sending that bad air right into the home for the family to breathe. .A cavity space used as a return-air pathway will pull pollutants into the building from unknown sources, it's also pulling a lot of air from the nasty, yucky crawl space below the floor. Nearly all building codes restrict the use of cavity spaces as supply ducts.
This above comment should be pinned on the top.
The most common way most hvac guys run "returns" to line their pockets. Yes pulls dust most fiberglass , great idea.
I thought that the whole comment was the code at first and couldn't believe that the word yucky was in the official code. 😂
I think it’s a great idea, maybe not drilling thru the joists but your describing SUPPLY air, he talking return air. There’s no heat, it’s moving air, filter on both ends. Mold isn’t a concern. I have a wood furnace, very similar senerio this seems much better than no return at all.
Manual D and J says you can use bays as a return path as long as its bigger than required duct dimension. I dont know about holes. Why were they cut. Those holes will cause restriction of air flow. Is it ok to cut holes into joist. Does code vary
I'm confused. Can you have electrical routed through the CAR?
No
I think the how to install a return air vent - plumberstock.com show was great I learned a lot.
I noticed you drilled multiple holes in joist is that ok? I guess question is can you do that ?
Thanks
That floor joist is completely destroyed. One hole that size would be ok but not sure why there is so many!
“Won’t screw up the structure at all” he says before drilling multiple 4” dia holes right next to each other through a TJI truss. Google: allowable holes trus joist TJI, to see what’s actually allowed by the manufacturer, Weyerhaeuser (They need to be 8” apart, if they’re even allowed for that exact size and series TJI truss, and assuming they’re located more than the minimum distance from the end support point. (see the spec sheet).
TGI joists are designed to be drilled thru at certain areas, but NOT that close to bearing(rimboard). That one joist with all the holes for R.A. should have failed framing inspection.All the holes should have been 12 inches apart.
I'm a newbie at installing duct works and was planning to do a room in my basement. I see lots of comments here by others claiming he did things wrong but he's one of the few videos on UA-cam that actually walks through a process. I appreciate his efforts. Can someone post a link to another video that does a walk through like this? Can i just use 4" or 6" aluminum ducts for an air return? Or does the duct need to be as wide as the area between floor joist? Room size isn't that large. It will be about a 12' by 10' space.
Everyone has to complain about everything.. they can't just shut their traps and be quiet
Great video BTW. Quality is excellent.
Massive holes cut in two adjoining floor joists. It's amazing how cavalierly plumbers and HVAC people like this guy will destroy structural elements to make their runs.
Right. But they don't have to worry because by the time the floor starts to cave, they're long gone... :-)
William Guenthner agreed.
William Guenthner we give you job security brotha
I'm a hvac guy and would never make such careless mistakes. This video should be deleted horrible advice nothing is done correctly. The biggest mistake is still having combustion air mix with the return which can introduce CO into the air stream.
He just covers those electrical wire big no no there not going in the proper direction
Engineered I-Beam Rules
You can never, ever, ever notch or bore through the top or bottom flange or chord.
You can drill 1-1/2 in. holes anywhere in the web. In fact, most have little perforated knockout holes that can be punched out with the swing of a hammer.
Drill large holes toward the center of I-beam joists, not toward the ends.
Leave at least 1/4 in. (or the amount specified by the manufacturer) of web between the edge of the hole and the flange.
Joist Boring Rules
Holes must be at least 2 in. from the top and bottom edges of a joist.
Maximum hole size is one-third of the joist depth.
Joist Notching Rules
The maximum depth of a notch at the end of a joist (where it rests on a wall or beam) can’t exceed one-quarter of the joist depth.
Maximum notch depth in the outer third of a joist is one-sixth of the joist depth.
Limit the length of notches to one-third of the joist depth.
No notching in the middle third of a joist.
Is the return "cut" into the back of the furnace? From the looks of it, the return grill is just behind the furnace and not cut into it. And as long as the thermo pan is not used in humid climates, its a good product. But prefer metal panning.
Won't this cause mold to grow?
Thank you for the effort to make this helpful, informative, thorough video. However, I believe that the holes you drilled in the engineered floor joist are much too large. They weaken the joist and would never pass inspection in most jurisdictions.
7:16 actually it WILL SCREW UP THE STRUCTURE! I'm starting to wonder if this is a joke video. Please stop.
Dont let a "plumber or service man" touch your ductwork, get a duct-,sheetmetal worker(tinknocker)
Hello ..I'm really stuck Ihope you can give me some insight. Problem: HVAC guy started got paid never came back. Biggest mistake I ever made . Now can't get no one to finish since its started . Main trunk supply is hung (8x16 reduced to 8x14) return holes are cut in floor above where the return duct needs mounted yet. So I have to get return to side of Horizontal furnace. I was going to pan floor joist cavity which is 14"1/2 X9" 1/2 1750 cfm out of furnace. Is that enough airflow for return? 3 Ton unit btw .. Thank you
Sam Gray 400 can per ton. Sounds like ur ok
This guy is definitely the boss' son in law.
Is there not a code in most if not all areas with governance of how far a heading unit can be from any structure or wall? (30"x30") ?
awesome video we'll explained. Clean job. Thanks for passing on.
Joe Martinez do not do a job like this. It’s 2000000% incorrect
I'm looking at this cause someone did this to my house I just bought .I need to fix it cause I'm getting basement odor coming thre the air duct to the upstairs . Its musty smell.
There is so many things wrong with this video I can even begin to talk about it.
Please do not do your return like this. it's a fucking mess after a 8-10 years of running. I'm redoing mine at home right now and it's not worth it trust me
Engineered joists completely ruined by plumbers! Never heard of that before!
Wrong you never modified floor joists or other obstructional from the house just one hole already ruined the integrity of the joist and you already have 5 or 7 holes bad idea
Holes are acceptable, but there rules to how big and where they can be.
I guess all of the sheet metal guys hate this installation? You really should really be complaining about the architect who obviously gave no thought for the location and design of the HVAC return air in his house design. Unfortunately, the installer has to weigh structural integrity versus proper air flow to the HVAC system and most installers won't care about structural integrity. Many years ago, Carrier gave a class on static pressure, and the instructor claimed the biggest problem in most HVAC systems is an undersized return air duct.
Great video. However, Please wear safety glasses next time. Too many eye injury's in my office this past year.
well im no expert, I was told Romex cable is not allowed to be in plenum spaces and drilling at the flange face of that joist with many holes turns it into swiss cheese and weakens that structural member.
The CAR is under side for the furnace
I give you kudos for attempting to seal your work. But why bother? The air return will just be sucked in anywhere there wood joins another object or where it warps. So basically you just spent all your time make a system that pulls air from the basement that looks good instead of a system that actually aids in the air movement into a room. I have a system like this and you know what the air barely moves into a room, why because all the return won't hold pressure causing the least resisting air to be pulled into the main unit from whatever crack is closest. I've attempted to seal and seal and seal my returns but these types of returns are garbage.
Excellent example of professional plumbers pretending to be HVAC technicians , not one whit of examining how much return air volume needed , nothing. Shoot from the hip it might work! What building code?
Video is great but the background music is annoying it makes it difficult to listen to your comments. thanks
where can i get the thermo pan?
+Shelley Diaz You can find Thermo Pan on our website here:
www.plumbersstock.com/thermopan-16048-16in-x-48-thermopan-cardboard-sheet.html
+PlumbersStock.com
Where can I buy the hole-saw to completely destroy a floor joist? I'm asking for a friend.
why is there is no insulation ? it's a cooled air when they meet a normal air 90 % it will moist because of condensation and it can damage your'e ceiling
Its the return most likely it will not condense. Supply will. Plus it looks like its going to be in a conditioned space
after reading comments below, the home owner started to file a lawsuit against this contractor
Thank god for the dislike extension giving me the headsup of how insane this video is
turn those joists into swiss cheese! yeah!
I don't think you're suppose to drill all those large holes in the joist like that. It will lose its structural strength and may cause the floor to cave in in that area.
is this a parody? Stud cavity air returns ? What is this 1982?
un F*&^ng Believable.
💀💀💀 not only is it a mess with the structure, but the return should never be open to the wood structure, since a fire will deliver smoke to the whole house and the return air will feed the fire throughout the whole joist bay. This man should take this down. I think We should sue him for incorrect practices information. Poor home owner.
All of that plus insanely restrictive!!!!
I really think you should take this video down. I lost count of all the errors in construction/destruction and simple common sense. Although your intention is good, there will be air quality, furnace efficiency, and structural issues in the future. This is so much like what the "sheet metal guys" did in my 1972 home. Dust and dirt on all of those unsealed joints, poor furnace performance, and constant sore throats and coughing.
I don’t want to live in this house never ever 😳😳😫😫
Hack.
Hack
put on safety glasses my son
Next trip to the store, get yourself a f’n respirator. 🤦🏻♂️
My baby brother dropped a phone in the vent
Those holes are so illegal it’s not even funny, anybody doing this yourself, don’t just put 10 4” holes in a line like he did.
That joist is now damaged and won’t last a lifetime. Check your codes and do it right, never do HVAC that a plumber teaches you, cause they don’t know shit.
wont pass in cleveland !
HVAC guru you are not.
This man hates joists and structural integrity more than anyone I've ever seen.
This guy clearly has no idea.
Epic fail!
thats mickey mouse
💀💀💀💀💀💀🤣🤣🤣🤣
This guy is a fool
Boring video, lost concentration after 3 minutes, cant finish
do not do this lmao
This dude is clueless lmao
Wow none of you understand what this man is doing.There is nothing wrong with this video or his procedure.The holes in the webbing is fine AHJ would pass in heart beat.Nor do you have an understanding of air flow dynamics.
Speaking of WOW! You have no idea of hole spacing in TJI's. Just go look at a TJI manufacturer for hole size and spacing. The only way AHJ would pass this in a heartbeat is if they did a drive-by inspection!
You are wrong.
Relative of this ijit I assume?