Horus Heresy: How to Build a Legion - Thousand Sons
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- Опубліковано 16 вер 2024
- In this video we’ll be looking at the XVth Legion, the Thousand Sons, as part of our ‘How to build a Legion’ series. We will cover off on four main areas. Firstly, how the boxed set supports the building of a XVth Legion army. Secondly, how the Legion’s special rules can be best taken advantage of on the table. Thirdly, how Rites of War impact unit selection. And lastly, whether any Legion Characters, Warlord Traits, or the Legion Advanced Reaction, change the way you might build and play your army.
Hopefully this is useful not only to those interested in the Thousand Sons, but for all Legion players, giving them an understanding of the concepts behind army building in Horus Heresy, and an idea of what each Legion can bring to the table.
Thousand Sons, famous for their psykers and flouting of the Emperor’s decrees. The XVth Legion are a real toolbox when it comes to army building, letting you use their Prosperine Arcana rules to provide units with relevant and powerful bonuses, at the risk of failing a psychic check. So, a toolbox that comes with a healthy dose of risk vs. reward, emphasis on the risk part. They’re a Legion offering a balanced playstyle that can be tailored towards combat or shooting depending on the whims of the player, though I’d say they’re leaning harder towards the combat side. I hope you enjoy the video!
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This is the one I've been waiting for! Thank you!
Very welcome!
@@blackbriargaming5483 it's great aswell mate. Keep up the good work!
@@Fabulousbill thanks! Missed a couple of interactions, apothecaries or tech marines being back up arcana buddies being one, but the comments have my back as usual 😊
Pavoni on a Contemptor Osiron would also be decent, as it would boost the Dread's movement significantly. Also I disagree, a Praetor is still a good choice IMO, as you can still upgrade him to be a psyker in addition to a fighty character.
Praetor is a great choice! Though aesthetically i wouldn't use either out of the boxed set. You're right though, I didn't clarify.
Some things I noticed while playing as TS:
Indomitus Terminators with PoTL are line units and troops and lose the support squad rule. Good for contesting objectives with Pavoni movement buffs.
Athanaean on Recon/Scout squads have some utility with their nemesis bolters based on some of our skirmish games.
Pyromancy (Not Pyrae) turn your HQs and Sekhmet into area denial units, forcing enemy units off an objective by turning it into difficult terrain and getting auto-hits with Pyromantic Combustion.
Castellax Achea when used offensively while escorted by a techmarine buffed tac squad 6 inches away become really potent suicide bombers and objective contesting. With Achean Config, you could pile all failed perils into the Castellax Achea closest to an enemy unit, to try and siphon perils wounds away with Adamantium Will.
Programmed Behaviour wouldn't be much of a debuff when you can herd them into an enemy objective, while using your units to contest with the Castellax Achea while your reserve line unit is behind them. The enemy player will attempt to destroy the castellax and it will explode on D6, removing even more enemy units on the objective for your reserve line unit to clean up behind them. If the Castellqx survives, you can battlesmith/Thaumaturgy the castellax for the next objective.
Omg thank you briar, this is what I've been waiting for
Glad I can help! What you thinking of running?? 😁
I've been waiting for this one! The 15th will be getting reinforcements
Sorry it took so long!
@@blackbriargaming5483 no worries mate! Thanks for putting in the hard work and making my choices easier😂
@@timeenoughatlast3368 what kind of build are you thinking??
@@blackbriargaming5483 humm. Good question. I want to use the 40k thousand sons set so probably infantry heavy with dread support and maybe a big tank as my heavy hitter? Not sure if i want 40k or 30k magnus. I'm leaning to 40k since i'll probably go heavy into scarab occult terminators
Thank you I'm building 1k sons and for a tournament but didn't have a solid list. This helped.
My Loyalist Praetor that totally isn’t just a modded Ahriman thanks you for this video
Awesome!!
With regards to the Achean Configuration, it's worth noting that your psychic robots get a 4+ Adamantine Will, which has been buffed this edition to allow you to use it on Perils of the Warp! This allows them to tank far more wounds than you would expect as you shunt all your problems onto them. Unfortunately, this does not make it, or them, good.
Ha ha noted 😅
Would love a world eaters HTB next. Great content as always!!
Almost! Only two legions to go before we get there... :D
Anychance this series will continue?, I am still trying to decide which legion to base my armored column idea on and your vids have been super helpful so far
It sure will! I take breaks in between a few of them as they can get a bit repetitive, and I don't want to short change any of the Legions :D But the Death Guard video is currently in the works! And a great option for your armoured column!
In regards to The guard of the Crimson King i might be mistaken here, but from what i understand while you can take Sekmet terminators as Troop choices they don´t get the line troops keyword.
So you end up with a unit that while it can contest objectives it can´t capture them.
So it does reduce the effectiveness of Guard of the Crimson King somewhat.
Yeah the troop slot isn't great and doesn't help sekhmet out. But the ability to deep strike stuff and basically no restrictions makes the rite great. Big units of despoilers work well.
@@chrisjohn6901 I did read on a reddit post that Pride of the Legion with normal terminators, is basically what Guard of the Crimson King should have been from the beginning.
I do hope i will get fixed in a later update so Guard of the Crimson king becomes a little better.
It doesn´t have to be the old yeah your Sekhment are now basically line troops and can plow through most of your enemies units with little difficulties.
But maybe fix it a bit here and there maybe a points reduction or something to make it more balanced.
@@Erikjust I usually just run my TS PoTL with Indomitus Termies + Thunder Hammers since they all become Line and can be taken as compulsory troops since they're not a support squad with PoTL. So I could still fill up my compulsory troops with cheaper indomitus termies and just pretend the Thunder Hammers are force staves with S8 or S10, Brutal(2) and Unwieldy.
Sadly Thousand Sons feels like a complete dud to me. The Legion Trait is a Jack of All Trades, Master of None style trait kinda like the Dark Angels Hexgrammaton where for the most part you get something weaker than what other Legions can do but get to chose for each unit individually. Except sometimes you just randomly fail and kill yourself instead.
Asphyx Bolters lose Fury of the Legion, so for your basic bolter dudes it might even be a downgrade you have to pay points for (all in on Breachers I guess). Aether is equal to a Plasma Gun (in Rapid Fire range) when it comes to killing Terminators because 4+ Breach is equal in value to Instant Death there. Except Aether just randomly fails. It's better at shooting Vehicles, but the tradeoff is that you're worse vs every other kind of infantry.
Sekhmet are cool and probably my favorite unit in the game, but they become insanely expensive because you probably have to upgrade them with Power Fists to fight other elites, and if you're not taking a Psychic Discipline why are you even taking them. Khenetai, they can randomly fail at having their elite melee infantry rule, and they randomly fail at having good weapons. Osiron feels like a Contemptor Dread that has to pay extra to get access to your Legion Trait.
Psyker Praetors feels like the only good thing that's left, and it's not gonna carry the Legion when any other Legion can take Librarians.
Thematically this is my favorite Legion, but if it feels like you're just getting worse toys than everyone else while you're randomly killing yourself in the process it's probably gonna suck all the fun out of playing them. Not everything has to be good but can we at least not have a fail condition where you die when your legion trait doesn't go off. Simply gonna go with my 2nd or 3rd pick instead.
All very valid points. I think they definitely could have removed the requirement to take a psychic check for Minor Arcana. If a few test games with your mates reveal that it's just not working, maybe have that chat with them and see if they're happy for you to drop it.
I don't think that Asphyx shells cause bolters to not be bolters. It's still called a bolter, and the wording in Fury isn't a keyword. From my reading You can still use Asphyx and Fury together.
@@jamesgarrett1300 so I don't think you can, which is why Hammer of Olympia exists for IWs??
@@blackbriargaming5483 No one else can Fury with pistols. And IW LOSE Fury with other bolters under HoO.
Sekhmet can go toe to toe with other Legion Termies, without Power Fists. Axes, plus Biomancy, plus Achean Force is S8, and T5. Meaning you ID, and they don't.
Could someone tell me where to find a picture with a starter "age of darkness" under thousand sons?
every "strange word" you said, got a really deep signification. Athanéen are the prime ancien greeks, or the greek side of the Troy war, for exemple...
The Outer Circle just released a pretty salty (his words!) video on the Thousand Sons now being the third weakest Legion of Horus Heresy (just ahead of Salamanders and Raven Guard). Would you agree on that? I'm not that competitive, but I don't like to play really bad armies, I prefere the midfield.
Oooh I've got a power level list coming out soon! Keep an eye out 😉
The outer circle is perpetually salty. It's just because 1k Sons were top beneath custodes and have now dropped to around mid, if not a tiny bit under.
I have to say the precision shot works really well because in the new horus heresy rules like 40k 8th and on once a model in a unit takes a wound you have to give them wounds until they die so you can precision shot a sargeant or apothecary in a unit then just keep shooting
I would use the scouts with nemesis bolters to precision shot a character in a unit or if needed a sargeant or flag holder jf it helps them and then use tactical marines with their special bolters to deal the majority of damage
Any wounds can always be moved away from characters.
@@frizzank unless they detach the special character the wounds will have to be applied to that model for the unit, they state in the core rules that once a model in a unit is wounded they must continue taking wounds until they die or there are no more wounds removed from the model
You said in your power ranking that athenean was not great but make a big deal of it here? Is it only good with GoTCK
You didn't mention it in the video, which makes me question if my reading of the rules is incorrect. From my reading, apothecaries are super valuable as TS, because each infantry (character) model gets a minor arcana. Each apothecary is an infantry (character), therefore apothecaries get their own minor arcana they add to the unit they join. Everything I've read in the book seems to point that there's nothing stopping your raptora sergeant giving an invuln the same turn the apothecary pavoni improves your movement, and your praetor in the squad gives them the athanaen buff. Techmarines getting a similar situation.
Is my reading incorrect?
Great idea!!! Kind of. So while you can have more than one minor arcana on a squad. No model can use more than one within a game. Pg. 255, para 2. But having an apothecary with the SAME minor arcana as the squad means you've got a back up if the enemy snipes your SGT.
@@blackbriargaming5483 I see it now yeah, thanks for pointing it out. I read that as all of the apothecaries in the apothecary detachment had to pick the same power, rather than a pyrae praetor can only join pyrae squads, if that makes sense.
Edit: actually I misunderstood what you said, and I’m still confused by the section. “If a unit includes more than one model with the character unit subtype, then all of those must select the same upgrade… no model can have or use more than one option from this special rule…”
I was under the impression powers were cast by model, and the effects of the minor arcana empowered the whole unit. In that case the apothecary would cast the Pavoni power, and the sergeant would cast the Raptora power. No single model then is using “more than one option from this special rule” if that makes sense. Unless by “use more than one option” it means benefit from the power rather than cast it? I would genuinely appreciate if you could help me understand this.
@@MyNameIsCain I see the 'use' as the individual models in a unit gaining the benefit of the power, as the powers state things like "when a unit" etc. And when characters join a unit (like an apothecary) they become part of the unit (as they can't leave it like ICs can), and this stops them from selecting a different minor arcana. Equally Praetors and such can't actually select a minor arcana as they're 'independent characters' not 'characters'. A lot of precise wording that is definitely confusing.
@@blackbriargaming5483
From what I'm seeing on the unit entries Praetors are in fact infantry with the character subtype, represented by Infantry (character) while "independent character" is a special rule, not a unit subtype. While definitely it specifies "independent characters" can't replace power weapons with Achea pattern force weapons, is there a specific place it mentions independent characters cannot take minor arcana?
In the case of overlapping cults within a single unit, when selecting an apothecary detachment in an elite slot, are you required to both have all of the individual apothecaries have the same minor arcana, in addition to those apothecaries only being able to join units with sergeants possessing the same minor arcana? Because based on reading of the second paragraph, either or both could be correct from what I'm seeing.
In addition, in the core book page 200, the small third paragraph says "in all cases, to use a psychic attack, weapon, or power, a model must possess the psyker unit subtype." In that section the word "use" is for the casting of the power itself which is my reasoning for the limitation on minor arcana powers being on the models casting the powers, rather than benefiting from their effects.
I'm new to playing heresy coming from 40k and AoS, so genuinely I'm hoping to understand the rules as they are presented. Am I missing something, either written or intended?
@@MyNameIsCain oh you're right about the Praetor! My bad. I assumed.
Hey Black Briar, how exactly do detachments work in Horus Heresy. I can’t get my head around primary/secondary detachments. With allies do they have to be a different faction or can they be of the same faction as your main force? Cheers in advance
From the wording alone, I'd say that there's nothing stopping you from taking an allied Detachment that is from the same faction. Why you would do that outside of wanting to give that allied detachment a separate Rite of War (which requires a Master of the Legion in that detachment) or needing more slots than are available in your primary detachment is a different story however.
Yep! Think of it as two separate armies that fight together, and, depending on their level of cooperation, can share certain aspects.
Probably would of spent more time looking at Archaen Config. The Castellax have adamantium will to save vs psychic powers shrugged. Also the praviens can join their unit so now you have robots with minor arcana. Not broken but it's definitely better. Also take praetor with eidolon of suffering
Ws3, mediocre gun.
CotCK is just too good in comparison
The castellax do get a lot more interesting in the rite of war. But you are still trying to build a list around a a massively overcosted unit.
A 50% chance to shrug is certainly better than nothing. I'd maybe use it when, as I said, expensive models are taking wounds. Praevian giving them a minor arcana is nice. They could use the speed or the save to decent effect. But mate, if I went into every single interaction these videos would be WAY too long. Comments section has my back though 😊
@@Cheriende keep competitive out of HH
Very true. Good general info on the faction. We know guard of the crimson king is good. :) keep on making vids!
Landspeeder squadrons cannot use minor arcana, they may be cavalry but they also lack any model with the character subtype, so unfortunately those multimelta character sniper landspeeders won't work. It mentions cavalry in the legion rules for the benefit of bike squads instead
Good pick up! My bad. Got excited about land speeders maybe being good... 😅
@@blackbriargaming5483 That admittedly was my first thought, but at least landspeeders are still an interesting way to bring fast grav and melta to crack AV14.
Also don't sleep on Sekhmet with biomancy, Telepathy is pretty amazing but T5 lets them avoid most instant death while letting them hit STR 8 with achean axes and the sergeant can swing at strength 10 at inititive with rending 4+ with its psychic weapon. They can still take hammers too to stack with that +1 strength to really lay some hurt on even leviathan dreadnoughts.
When are we going to get Iron Warriors?
From what I understand, Corvidae is just when you first wound - before armour saves - you get precision shots. So it is kinda bad? Worth taking on something like a lascannon HSS or maybe a Mortalis Destoryer squad with disintegrators or something, but other then that just a bit meh.
Gotya. Yeah. Sniping lascannons for the win then.
Corvidae raw is insane, you get to choose until something die... So in theory you can even spread some wound on a terminator unit (and force them to be taken before the unwounded models)
You allocate the first wound, but as per the rules for allocating wounds; you must allocate to the same model for the entire wound pool
@@Egalogalis "Unless that model is out of line of sight of all models in the attacking unit or has the Character sub-type" per page 170 of the Rulebook. So no, you don't just dump all wounds onto a sergeant until they die.
I want to make a praetor with warhawk jetpack and slap a thunder hammer and paragon blade on him with the Eidolon of Suffering WLT, that combined with an assault squad unit with pyrae for hammer of wrath (2) or pavoni for +3 movement, they just charge in, and he gets 10 attacks (as long as you have some other psykers cast near him bumping up his rage (2) to rage (4))
What about taking combat shields and that archana weith +1 in invus for assault squad. 🤔
@@e-jlehti1489 possibly, I just wanna make a beat stick praetor capable of potentially 1 hitting a contemptor turn 1
You say auto-may-ta, I say auto-mah-ra, let's call the whole thing heresy
I'm really conscious of it cause someone said I was saying it wrong in a video but didn't say which way was right!!?? 😅 I think I like 'auto-may-ta' more.
@@blackbriargaming5483 If it helps, both ways of saying it are correct. Love the content, really entertaining. Keep up the great work!
@@kirbyrawstorne thanks!
Asphynx bolter lose at every range to normal bolter except the 12-18 inch range.
Also you lose access to bayonettes and the fury of the legion.
So asphynx sucks
Why do you lose access to fury of the legion?? They are still considered as a bolter type weapon
@@SupremeBroadcast they are no longer a bolter, so rules for bolters don't technically work. :/
@@SupremeBroadcast fury isn't bolter type it's specifically bolt guns. Asphex replaces your bolt gun with an asphex bolt gun
Remember fury only works if you're staying still. Which, if you're popping out of rhinos, you ain't. And that 12 to 18 range isn't exactly uncommon for a unit that wants to stay out of combat. So 'sucks' seems harsh 😅 Also why do I want my single attack tactical squads in combat...?
You lose neither.
So they are not as bad as people say
Yes and no... 😅 Crimson King is great. Otherwise they may struggle. And use those psychic powers sparingly!