Acceleration has been fixed somewhat on the F-104 release version (vs pre-release), that part should be redone. Good flying the 104 its pretty hard not to lose control and go into the spin. And flaps have been changed a bit, also dont go above 0.85 mach with flaps T/O any more, you'll get a big surprise if you do.
@@grimreapers anytime, devs are also reworking the curves a bit more to get it closer, among few other issues like the "Cobra" (details on that and why its happening are on the discord, dont get used to using it, lol). Should be even better soon.
One year later it seems much better. Tbh, I usually dont usually use plane mods in DCS beside the A-4, but the F-104 has gotten pretty neat. Also feels really nice in VR somehow.
Considering the drag race at the beginning, I thought the mig-21 was known for having a slow initial acceleration, especially at lower altitudes, whereas the f-104 was legendary in its acceleration. I could be wrong, but that was the result I expected.
Leave it to GR to fly the Starfighter like a Flanker, lol. First Cap ducking around hills and winning, then Damp doing the OG cobra (aka superstall). I love it!
Widow-CAP-Maker! Yes, that was me telling you to use flaps. You knew I was going to chime in. CAP & Co., use take off flap! T/O flap is also called Maneuver Flap. You can use maneuver flap up tp 550 kts or M1.8. Corner speed is 400 kts where you can hold 7Gs but... you need to use maneuver flap! Next, fight fast! All F-104 pilots say the same thing; the 104 comes alive at 600-700 kts. I even read at one merge, the F-104 was at 875 kts at 20,000 ft. Run the Mach calculation and tell us what Mach this is. Fight in the vertical! Maneuver/ T/O flap down for turning, then up for acceleration, and back down for turning WHEN you need to turn. Andy Bush and a German Air Force pilot did a 2 v 1 against an F-15. Care to guess how it turned out? Unable to post the link but Google: "How an Old-School F-104 Could Beat an F-15 In Battle".
I read where F15 pilots started their DACT vs F104s and would reflexively climb away, but the 104 could climb easily with it and power to spare. One account has the 104 pilot complaining he had to slow down in the climb to avoid the overtake.
During project Featherduster F-104 were not too bad even against F-86 in slow speed fights. Another source described that F-104Gs with maneuver flaps could turn with hard wing F-4s. F-4Es with slats could turn better but lost lots of energy.
Well said! Col. Andy Bush also showed live to it's German flight students how he was able to out-scissor an F-5 3 time out of 3 just using the superior energy of the F104G to out fly the more manoeuvrable F-5. Worth saying the F-5 pilot was a little shaken. "I can't F***ing believe this!" were his words.
Drag is massively important when it comes to the races and acceleration. The zipper was a very slippery airframe so I wouldn't dismiss it as unrealistic without more research
Edit: sorry for the typo: yes, the drag race Bruce described was F-106 versus F-4 and not against a F-104. The amount of static thrust is not the same as the amount produced in flight. So it is very difficult to assess the accuracy. Also, as others pointed out, drag becomes more and more important at higher speed. Relative weak engines combined with a sleek design can be the faster choice. E.g. F-106 drag race vs F-4 (narrated by former F-106 pilot): ua-cam.com/video/XxEakcZa6gw/v-deo.html To the F-104 vs Mig-21 race: The Mig-21 has the advantage of a variable shock cone which allows the shock wave to touch the intake lips over a greater speed range. F-104's fixed shock cones were optimized for about M 1.6. Some F-104s had shock cones optimized for a higher design speed, but to my knowledge these were special versions (e.g. NF-104A) or single aircraft modified for record attempts (F-104C first aircraft to take off on own power and to reach 100k ft / 30k meter.). So the Mig-21 inlet might be more efficient than the F-104 inlet design. However, the F-104 engine featured variable compressor stator vanes to regulate the air flow, and it used something named T-2 reset. At more than 92 °C inlet temperature the engine RPM increased to 104 %. This was a kind of special afterburner mode for high altitude high speed flight regimen. The engine also used a secondary air flow for cooling, which improved nozzle efficiency / lowered drag. And these are only some engine aspects. Long story short: impossible to test simulated aircraft based on just a few specs.
There are *very* detailed performance analyses of the MiG-21 from the testing squadron in Groom Lake. They were able to develop tactics to fight it based on it's strengths & weaknesses. The Fishbed was sort of the AK-47 of jet aircraft: you find them everywhere! IIRC the throttle response was quite poor and visibility was a major issue too (at least compared to contemporary Western fighters).
I remember reading that even newer aircraft found the F104 difficult to dogfight with capable pilot - just so much thrust. You could try the flaps in the Mig though and see what happens.
A f104 is very easy to dogfight, and if you try to dogfight with it you are using it wrong, use the speed to fly away higher than the enemy can reach, then attack them from above. It isnt even a fighter, its a interceptor built for speed, it can fight other jets pretty well if you use the "boom and zoom" strategy however.
Its kinda like the russian mig-25/31 playstyle, you just stay so high enemies cant even reach you, and so fast that nothing sent at you would catch up anyways, then just drop them before they even knew. In close no good
Korean War fighter pilots who had tangled with enemy MiGs wanted something that was light, simple and capable of exceptional performance. Hence the F-104. As the saying goes: be careful what you wish for..
I'm just a fan of Military Aeronautics. I write from Italy, where, as you know, the LOCKHEED F-104 remained in service until the early 2000s ... with the F-104s ASA -M version, the 'RF-104G and TF-104G ..... if I remember correctly. I live in central ITALY, near ANCONA, and right on the vertical of my city, there is an "ITALIAN MILITARY AERONAUTICAL TRAINING AREA, and I remember the SONIC BOOMS (in the 80s / 90s), the fabulous F-104s, called "spilloni" from our pilots. Un saluto ✌
Of note, the mig can handle low speed scissors if you drop to takeoff/landing flaps. The mig can be a monster low and slow to fly and fight against it. I have gone 5 and 1 against the 14 in a mig. The two aircraft are very similar but in terms of skill required to push the envelope of the aircraft the f104 is way worse off. If it is a game of trying to make the other guy mess up I would rather fly out with the 21 because you can recover from messing up much easier than a f104.
Yeah when dogfighting in the MiG as soon as you go below 500kph deploy take off flaps and keep the angle of attack right on the edge of the yellow and red, and make sure your emergency afterburner is on and you will become vastly better in a dogfight. If you watch Romanian airshows with the MiG 21 you can see then using takeoff flaps when they are maneuvering at slow speed. The flaps are also designed so they can't be oversped, they just push back up into the wing
@@Struktualnyj ua-cam.com/video/rV_GiOrqGRQ/v-deo.html Me fighting in the MiG-21 this way, you do want to come off the throttle now and then to prevent overshooting.
you got the thrust numbers wrong,15650 is actually the MAXIMUM thrust that the mig 21 can do. The star fighter can get a maximum thrust of 17,900 lbf so the results are roughly in line
My fondest memories of the Starfighter are as a kid at the Greenham Common airshow in the 70's. Having them buzz over your head at low altitude and high speed was awesome!
I have to laugh a little bit at all the "those numbers are wrong!" comments. Keep in mind, the only numbers that matter for these are the numbers DCS provides, not the actual real-world numbers. Hopefully, DCS gets close to the real thing...but if the model is inaccurate, that's not on Cap or GR...they have to work with what's available, and DCS doesn't always have the details correct. That said, it's informative to read some of the true-to-life stats, especially when they differ in some significant degree. It's food for thought. And I'd be careful waving statistics from one conflict as proof of one or the other as the better jet. Depending on where you looked in WWII, the P40 was either hopelessly outclassed by the Zero (almost everywhere the two met), or a Zero-eater (the Flying Tigers, in China). Pilot training, experience, and discipline can play as much or more of a role in combat results as the capabilities of the planes involved. That was the whole reason for establishing the Top Gun (USN) and Aggressor Squadron (USAF) programs.
I was very fortunate to have sat in a Japanese F-104 Starfighter at the Hamamatsu JASDF Museum in Shizoka, Japan. The cockpit was surprisingly small and tight but the jet was long and slender, a real beauty!
Historically the F-104 and MiG-21 only clashed once. It was in 1971 Pakistani F-104A model versus Indian MiG-21FL so earlier versions of both planes. Indian MiGs won scoring a gun kill on the Starfighter. And that saddens me, I consider the Starfighter one of the best looking aircraft in history. It looks like a missile that someone put wings on as an afterthought.
Actually clashed four times but MiG-21 won all of them This is PAF pilots downed ( incl, Sqn) 1.W/C Middlecoat 2.F/L Chengazi 3. No pilot named but confirmed to be 9th Sqn RJAF 4. Another kill not admitted by PAF but confirmed to be of 9th Sqn RJAF
When I was stationed in West Germany several Luftwaffe pilots told me that in DACT they wanted to have their tip tanks on because provided additional wing area and improved the turn rate albeit with an small increment increase in drag. I think this same scenario here would be fun with the F-104S model the hottest of all the Starfighters.
A Mig 21 MF would have been a better match for the F104G which flew 10 years earlier then the Bis variant. An F-104S (1968) would probably be a Better match for the Bis (1972) with similar power to weight ratio. The F104 was undoubtedly faster then the Mig21 at acceleration due to massive drag difference, not just because of a more refined shape (and there is a good deal there) but also about how crude the Soviet Planes were made. I remember an early eighties soviet Mig 23 pilot getting near a Viggen and gaping at how silky smooth the surfaces were compared to what he was used to. Soviet engines (the later Tumanski) were very powerful but also very lazy to rev up, even of full afterburner: to give you a comparison think of a GE TF-30 compared to a PW F100 in the late 70. On chart very similar but in practice the PW was much faster in a given time to accelerate. The J79 as considered an amazing engine until the Turbofan took over, where you could just slam the throttle forward without fear of engine stalls. this was not possible in a soviet Mig. To get a better idea on how fast these plane are at brute force acceleration you should take off on a runway at speed 0, when aerodynamics is no concern, Full AB Carrier style take off, so that the engine is not a variable in the equation. A Starfighter can turn with any non slatted Phantom, B/C/D/N/K above 450/480 knots and gets comparatively more agile when above Mach 1 where it suffers much less then displacement of aerodynamic centre. The problem, a big one, comes when you lose energy and you find yourself flying like a brick: a minute you were out-turning your opponent and a minute later you lose control or simply struggle to stay in the air pointing your nose around. Google for the YT video "F-104 Starfighter Walkaround" by Eric Johnston: Good stuff!
@@lukewhitehouse4103 yes, but the fighter version was missing the gun. Due to the environment these dogfight are made in, the Fighter Bomber variant with with plenty of AIM-9F (a big step forward compared to the B version and more in line with the Atoll on the Bis) and the Vulcan would be a better choice
GASP! You will now have to rename him from Damp sok to Wet sok after that splash into the drink! Or do GR provide drying services so he may become Dry Sok? :D
For decades I thought the F-104 was the greatest threat to defending NATO airspace. But I think you guys just showed that the F-104 operators had a real chance against of era Warsaw Pact hardware. I just assumed that the F-104 was MiG-21 chow.
They really didn't though and the missile the F-104 is using is far too modern (Aim9M) the Luftwaffe had the Aim9B AIM-9B FGW 2 derrivative on the F104, an Aim9B sidewinder with an Aim9E seeker head the Aim9J was never purchased, The DDR was using both the R60 and the R60M (being an all aspect missile) an R60 can pull 30G. Chinese MiG 19 shot down a USAF F104C in Vietnam.
both mods seemed decent , the star-fighter does accelerate faster in real watch pilot interviews they really are that fast , and the mig 21 did have bad visibility issues . the mig delta wing does out rate the small star-fighter wings but the star-fighter has better slow speed turning (i think)
@@mikesmith-wk7vy I will take your word on it and jm sure it helps..just that the actual pilot interviews were along the line of it coming alive at high speeds. (Come alive =eat the pilot? Lol)
Regarding the drag race , I think “drag” is the operative word. Without accurate measurement of the planes’ aerodynamic drag across the spectrum of operational speeds, it’s difficult to assess their instantaneous acceleration.
Some of the F-104 Starfighters had their original engine replaced with the J79-GE-19, which provided 17,900 lbf (79.6 kN) of thrust in afterburner. The original engine only produced 15,600 lbf (69.39 kN) with afterburner. that's a 2,300 lbf increase.
Valued viewer request. Super Cap V Kortana. 1 v 1 Dogfight, F-16. 2 x wing tip missiles & guns only. 80% internal fuel only starting at 10,000ft, clear sky. Best out of 3. And 1 x Mossie guns only and 5 minutes to take out 500 killer robot cows!
the lookheed f-104g--starfighter. were used several countries. usa.japon.pakisytan.norway.portugal.italy.belgian.denmark.holland.canada.south korea.grecee.turkey.spain.germany..
I didn't like how you discovered the F-104 all of a sudden turned better with flaps down, about halfway through the fight tally. You supposedly had some practice flights before the contest.
I wish that I did have more stick time... I think I had about 10 minutes of practice before we started filming. I hadn't even figures out how to land it yet. I'd like to do it again with some more practice.
The only thing I've goto fault, is going to external view gave you an edge since you had lost them, don't know if they did external aswell, I think a redo with that restriction to stay in cockpit might of made a difference aswell. I do enjoy GR vids, makes me want to actually play DCS (waiting on apache release)
@@grimreapers I'd say it depends on how you look at it. If you are looking from a raw performance perspective then not really, but if you are looking at it from the total package then it would be a buff to the aircraft with worse visibility.
@@grimreapers Yes and No, if both pilot A and B are both using it at the same time then not really an advantage, but if pilot A losses track and pilot B could then maneuver themselves into a better position because of it, but because pilot A can see Pilot B, pilot A's error/mistake hasn't made an impact. It could be compared to playing a FPS one guy has a wall cheat and one doesn't, both know there is an enemy around, but one knows when to move. Sorry if I sound like an arse, as I do enjoy these, I just thought it'd be a good way to compete more to see how pilots/airframes can be compairable, I also get going into external camera can help for cinematic effect for the video. Again, my criticism means jack s**t since I don't play DCS nor am I a pilot, I'm just a viewer that enjoys watching these (I wish I could watch on twitch but being in australia times aren't good)
Disappointed by the realism of the F-104 Edit: btw, Both planes did see combat during India-Pakistan conflicts. MiG-21 “won” but there were a lot of factors affecting the results.
There were two engagements in Indian air space ( easy win by migs) and two more in Pakistan air space ( were hard but still migs won ) of which all four engagements was won by Indian fishbeds
I mean the f104 holds the low alt speed record but the mig is a bit smaller and light and has better thrust to weight so makes sense in acceleration but in top end starfighter should win easy
The Starfighter is not a fast as people think. It was extremely fast for the time (so was the 21) but by today standards there both pretty slow especially in acceleration
@@reichenwald-gm4qd Ye there both slow but would make sense for mig 21 to be faster in acceleration and f104 in top speed cuz of low alt record, aerodynamics etc
Ultimate Interceptor battle. And, ironically, some of the first true multirole jets (not counting Mirage), even if that caused massive problems in both.
star-fighter pilots said it had a 1-1 thrust to weight ratio and could hover in full afterburner and they were also able to push it to mach 2.3 although that damaged things
There's a video on YT about a de-classified USAF assessment of different Soviet & US fighter aircraft and how they compare. Can't find it though. One of the assessments was Mig-21 vs F-104 and as I recall the assessment found that Mig-21 was superior in every aspect.
The F-104 in all incarnations from the F-104A onwards was faster than the Mig-21 and had _much_ better acceleration and climb rate. The Starfighter had _far_ lower drag due to its tiny wings and slender fuselage. The plane was legendary for its speed, acceleration and climb rate and broke many records, which the Mig-21 was incapable of coming close to. Where the heck did you get the information that the Mig-21 was faster? Don't go there for any more information. The Starfighter went like a rocket though it turned only slightly better than a bullet. In skilled hands it could still beat a Mig-21 in a fight 1v1, though 2v2 or anything more complex and I'd bet on the Mig.
This was awesome! I had no idea the Starfighter could do the cobra or turn so tight. 🤷 I wish you could lock the Starfighter's flaps in Strike Fighters.
I do want to point out that in the 4 fundamentals of flight weight and thrust are not opposing forces therefore (and since the airplanes are basically the same weight) the aerodynamics of the planes would be more important for determining acceleration. And I think the 104 is more aerodynamic. Weight should effect the turn rates the most. Thrust would determine top speed. All that to say, I think the acceleration at low speed would go to the 104 while the mig probably has the top speed.
Actually, weight is not a factor for turn rate. Rate and radius of turn are controlled by bank angle and airspeed (excluding exotic tech such as thrust vectoring) For example, let's say we have two aircraft, a Cessna 172 and a Learjet. If both are in a sixty-degree banked turn (constant-altitude, coordinated turn), the Cessna will have a greater rate of turn but a smaller radius of turn. The Lear would have a slower rate of turn, but a greater radius of turn. However, both planes would be experiencing the same 2 g load factor. Also, thrust alone does not determine top speed. The airplane stops accelerating when thrust equals drag, and of course both those parameters can be affected by aircraft design, use of certain control surfaces, lowering or raising the nose so that gravity adds to or subtracts from the thrust vector, and so on. Also, when the aircraft is not in level flight, the four forces become a bit more complex, splitting into a combination of vectors. In a climb, for example, a component of weight is acting as drag, so it's not quite as simple as you might think. Former instructor.
A starfighter would win a drag race. Power to weight is just one thing. The leading edge of the 104s wings were sharp enough to cut you. It was extremely aerodynamic. By this “power to weight ratio” logic how does a 5000lb Tesla eat a 3300lb corvette alive? Both in roughly the same power ballpark. Plus the Russian jet engines were not very refined. They put down power numbers but that’s about it. I work for Lockheed so maybe I’m biased. I also drive a Vette and Tesla’s upset me… lol
For two short winged powerful interceptors, these were actually really entertaining to watch. Going one circle two circle and rolling scissors. Who knew!
during 1971 Indo Pak war IAF MiG-21s faced off against PAF F-104As and shot down two of them for no loss. 1. during peak of war Wing Commander Mervyn Leslie Middlecoat was leading flight of two F-104As on strafing mission on IAF Jamnagar, His flight was intercepted by by pair of MiG-21s, unable to outrun or outmaneuver nimble MiG, he was shot down in gun attack off coast of Jakhau. he ejected over marshes and no trace of him was ever found, IAF pilot who shot him down was F/L Bharat Bhushan Soni 2. On 17th December 1971, last day of war, S/L Rashid Bhatti was leading flight of two RJAF F-104As (transferred to PAF during war) with F/L Samad Changezi as wingman on a CAP mission over Thar desert. his pair was in "guns only" configuration as they were carrying two drop tanks on wingtip pylons, an inexplicable error by mission planners. Samad saw pair of MiG-21s and got behind lead MiG-21. He took time to fire gun as he closed in , meanwhile MiG wingman, F/L Arun Dutta closed behind him. Rashid tried to warn Samad but radio was broken. Arun fired two K-13s one of which found its mark. Samad couldn't eject from his exploding aircraft. MiGs disengaged as they were probably short of fuel the war also saw other some other mach 2 encounters like Mirage 3 vs Su-7
@@aeronaut1406 yes! IAF vs PAF is always interesting, both sides punching each other , like in 1965 war , IAF mig21 pilots were not trained properly, the soviet mig21 training facility was shit, as a result one IAF MiG21 was shot downed by a PAF F86. Note that Paf f86 pilots were highly. skilled
@@Deadpool-rw1pk actually MiG-21 was shot down by F-86 in 1971 war, it didn't see any air combat in 1965 war due to poor training facilities and lack of tactics on type. but several were destroyed on ground by F-86s and B-57s
during 1971 Indo Pak war IAF MiG-21s faced off against PAF F-104As and shot down two of them for no loss. 1. during peak of war Wing Commander Mervyn Leslie Middlecoat was leading flight of two F-104As on strafing mission on IAF Jamnagar, His flight was intercepted by by pair of MiG-21s, unable to outrun or outmaneuver nimble MiG, he was shot down in gun attack off coast of Jakhau. he ejected over marshes and no trace of him was ever found, IAF pilot who shot him down was F/L Bharat Bhushan Soni 2. On 17th December 1971, last day of war, S/L Rashid Bhatti was leading flight of two RJAF F-104As (transferred to PAF during war) with F/L Samad Changezi as wingman on a CAP mission over Thar desert. his pair was in "guns only" configuration as they were carrying two drop tanks on wingtip pylons, an inexplicable error by mission planners. Samad saw pair of MiG-21s and got behind lead MiG-21. He took time to fire gun as he closed in , meanwhile MiG wingman, F/L Arun Dutta closed behind him. Rashid tried to warn Samad but radio was broken. Arun fired two K-13s one of which found its mark. Samad couldn't eject from his exploding aircraft. MiGs disengaged as they were probably short of fuel
Drag effects top speed more then acceleration. Power to weight influence acceleration esspesially at low speeds in a dogfight and the MiG-21bis with emergency afterburner has around a 1.11 power to weight ratio and even without the emergency burner it's 0.79 The starfighters ratio is 0.72 which is just slightly better then the MiG 19s 0.71
@@Lightning_aus Still doesn't matter enough at low speed, and especially in a dogfight when your pulling AoA and the Starfighter starts becoming more draggy especially with the wing tanks. Even in a straight line the MiG Is also very streamline by design and it's going to crush the starfighter due to the vastly better thrust to weight.
Something you could try for the Mig21 is this. According to Ward Carroll a F14 jockey who flew dissimilar training against a Mig21 out in the Nevada test ranges if a Mig21 uses flaps during a turn it considerably increases turn rate in a vertical (and possibly any turn- I'm not sure) fight. Its mentioned in his video about "the secret program that hid a more secret program". Might have helped here?
_Have Donut_ was the name of that program. They got a Fishbed-E from Israel after Mossad got an Iraqi pilot to defect in 1966. The performance evaluations are pretty interesting!
So.... You do know that Eric Hartmann resigned his position with the Luftwaffe over the development of the NATO Star Fighter program. My Father(Joe Hartmann), Eric's American nephew and a aeronautical engineer worked on the 104. Dad spent a too much time in Brussels during those years and worked a bit with his uncle up until his resignation. Anyway, Pops died way to young at 65 (30 years ago)but he made his mark on advanced avionics working on iconic projects like the original F15 Radar, A10 Laser guidance, F111 and other airframes. His most profound work involved the creation of phased array radar which is basically the backbone of the Aegis systems Cap loves so much. just thought you might like the geek out.
@Sixgun Symphony He thought it was a death trap. Killed a fair score of young German Pilots. He also felt that the entire program was being rammed down NATO's throat by the US.
Both require pilot skill to make full use of their advantages, and also both during their service where falsely defamed by names like flying coffin and widowmaker.
The zero Lift-Drag Coefficient for the F104 was 0.017, The Mig21 at zero incidence is 0.028, Ok not exactly like for like but its the nearest data I can find. So I think the F104 is a bit more slippery than the Mig21 so that would affect the Acceleration.
Yeah, personally I feel this mod is more for a fan of the F-104, not like the heatblur F-14 team who put so much effort into realism and the weaknesses of the aircraft. Watching an F104 with flaps out dogfight a MiG 21 BIS is just pure fiction, it also as you said should be using the AIM-9B FGW 2 as the Luftwaffe never purchased the Aim9J for their F104 fleet. This already gives the DDR/Soviet MiG 21 an advantage using the R60 or R60m.
With those short stubby wings, don't you think that drag would be much lower in the starfighter? It had 80% of the wing area of the MiG-21 and climbed faster iirc than the MiG-21.
during 1971 Indo Pak war IAF MiG-21s faced off against PAF F-104As and shot down two of them for no loss. 1. during peak of war Wing Commander Mervyn Leslie Middlecoat was leading flight of two F-104As on strafing mission on IAF Jamnagar, His flight was intercepted by by pair of MiG-21s, unable to outrun or outmaneuver nimble MiG, he was shot down in gun attack off coast of Jakhau. he ejected over marshes and no trace of him was ever found, IAF pilot who shot him down was F/L Bharat Bhushan Soni 2. On 17th December 1971, last day of war, S/L Rashid Bhatti was leading flight of two RJAF F-104As (transferred to PAF during war) with F/L Samad Changezi as wingman on a CAP mission over Thar desert. his pair was in "guns only" configuration as they were carrying two drop tanks on wingtip pylons, an inexplicable error by mission planners. Samad saw pair of MiG-21s and got behind lead MiG-21. He took time to fire gun as he closed in , meanwhile MiG wingman, F/L Arun Dutta closed behind him. Rashid tried to warn Samad but radio was broken. Arun fired two K-13s one of which found its mark. Samad couldn't eject from his exploding aircraft. MiGs disengaged as they were probably short of fuel
@@aeronaut1406 eh search for Iaf combat kills 1971 by Harry B talks about all kills made by iaf confirmed no claims only confirmed kills National interest mig21 beat f104 by charlie G talks about how did the migs outclassed the f104s downing between 3 and five f104 Mig21 combat history And this whole 1971 war the migs had scored six combat victories all confirmed and I did my research trust me it was a long research I’ve confirmed all six kills 4 f104 2 MiG19 but no f86 Sabre no c130 You can see I’m not using Bharat rakshat or other Indian websites since they could be just claims so I used other sources and post war survey which it is in Iaf combat kills 1971 to confirm migs 21 kills of 1971
@@alandope8733 then please name pilots of other two F-104s as well as IAF pilots who shot them down. I've done my research by cross checking proofs, claims and acceptances on both sides. sources consulted: Indian official history of 1971 war In the ring and on its feet- story of PAF during 1971 war by AC Kaiser Tufail
There's your problem lady, you let a German fly it. German loss rate for the F-104 was 32%. German loss rate for the Bf 109 was 33%. There's a pattern here.:O
…actually the F-104 had an automatic control for slats and flaps, controlled by an angle of attack sensor. As the drag of the F-104 is smaller due to its size (or the lack thereof), an advantage in acceleration would not be unlikely.
Not too bad of a showing considering the Starfighter was never meant to be a dogfighter. It's mission was to catch Soviet bombers as fast as possible and shoot them down before entering U.S. airspace.
Acceleration has been fixed somewhat on the F-104 release version (vs pre-release), that part should be redone. Good flying the 104 its pretty hard not to lose control and go into the spin.
And flaps have been changed a bit, also dont go above 0.85 mach with flaps T/O any more, you'll get a big surprise if you do.
Thanks Gvad, great to hear from you again!! (we used pre-release in video)
@@grimreapers anytime, devs are also reworking the curves a bit more to get it closer, among few other issues like the "Cobra" (details on that and why its happening are on the discord, dont get used to using it, lol). Should be even better soon.
Oh geez! Gvad is here! Glad to see you around in DCS community!
One year later it seems much better.
Tbh, I usually dont usually use plane mods in DCS beside the A-4, but the F-104 has gotten pretty neat. Also feels really nice in VR somehow.
Considering the drag race at the beginning, I thought the mig-21 was known for having a slow initial acceleration, especially at lower altitudes, whereas the f-104 was legendary in its acceleration. I could be wrong, but that was the result I expected.
Yeah absolutely
You actually right, f104 have perfact aerodynamic from any jet fighter
Leave it to GR to fly the Starfighter like a Flanker, lol. First Cap ducking around hills and winning, then Damp doing the OG cobra (aka superstall). I love it!
"He did a cobra in a Starfighter. Nuff said." is the kind of thing you'd put on his gravestone!
@@trolleriffic The cobra bit back.
My father flew F-104s intercepting Soviet Bears. It's not much of a dogfighter. I was happy to see one flying in 2018. The J79 howl is amazing.
Widow-CAP-Maker! Yes, that was me telling you to use flaps. You knew I was going to chime in. CAP & Co., use take off flap! T/O flap is also called Maneuver Flap. You can use maneuver flap up tp 550 kts or M1.8. Corner speed is 400 kts where you can hold 7Gs but... you need to use maneuver flap! Next, fight fast! All F-104 pilots say the same thing; the 104 comes alive at 600-700 kts. I even read at one merge, the F-104 was at 875 kts at 20,000 ft. Run the Mach calculation and tell us what Mach this is. Fight in the vertical! Maneuver/ T/O flap down for turning, then up for acceleration, and back down for turning WHEN you need to turn. Andy Bush and a German Air Force pilot did a 2 v 1 against an F-15. Care to guess how it turned out? Unable to post the link but Google: "How an Old-School F-104 Could Beat an F-15 In Battle".
@@stinkyfungus I usually use the SPAD 13 as my basis for a boom-and-zoomer but I guess P-51 works.
I read where F15 pilots started their DACT vs F104s and would reflexively climb away, but the 104 could climb easily with it and power to spare. One account has the 104 pilot complaining he had to slow down in the climb to avoid the overtake.
Yes I remember now! Thanks! Life saver
During project Featherduster F-104 were not too bad even against F-86 in slow speed fights.
Another source described that F-104Gs with maneuver flaps could turn with hard wing F-4s. F-4Es with slats could turn better but lost lots of energy.
Well said! Col. Andy Bush also showed live to it's German flight students how he was able to out-scissor an F-5 3 time out of 3 just using the superior energy of the F104G to out fly the more manoeuvrable F-5. Worth saying the F-5 pilot was a little shaken. "I can't F***ing believe this!" were his words.
Drag is massively important when it comes to the races and acceleration. The zipper was a very slippery airframe so I wouldn't dismiss it as unrealistic without more research
Not to mention spool up times for the engines.
and the 21 has almost double the wing and tail surface area.
Slippery, it is. It doesn’t hold the low altitude speed record for nothing.
Edit: sorry for the typo: yes, the drag race Bruce described was F-106 versus F-4 and not against a F-104.
The amount of static thrust is not the same as the amount produced in flight. So it is very difficult to assess the accuracy.
Also, as others pointed out, drag becomes more and more important at higher speed. Relative weak engines combined with a sleek design can be the faster choice.
E.g. F-106 drag race vs F-4 (narrated by former F-106 pilot): ua-cam.com/video/XxEakcZa6gw/v-deo.html
To the F-104 vs Mig-21 race: The Mig-21 has the advantage of a variable shock cone which allows the shock wave to touch the intake lips over a greater speed range. F-104's fixed shock cones were optimized for about M 1.6. Some F-104s had shock cones optimized for a higher design speed, but to my knowledge these were special versions (e.g. NF-104A) or single aircraft modified for record attempts (F-104C first aircraft to take off on own power and to reach 100k ft / 30k meter.). So the Mig-21 inlet might be more efficient than the F-104 inlet design.
However, the F-104 engine featured variable compressor stator vanes to regulate the air flow, and it used something named T-2 reset. At more than 92 °C inlet temperature the engine RPM increased to 104 %. This was a kind of special afterburner mode for high altitude high speed flight regimen. The engine also used a secondary air flow for cooling, which improved nozzle efficiency / lowered drag. And these are only some engine aspects.
Long story short: impossible to test simulated aircraft based on just a few specs.
There are *very* detailed performance analyses of the MiG-21 from the testing squadron in Groom Lake. They were able to develop tactics to fight it based on it's strengths & weaknesses. The Fishbed was sort of the AK-47 of jet aircraft: you find them everywhere! IIRC the throttle response was quite poor and visibility was a major issue too (at least compared to contemporary Western fighters).
I remember reading that even newer aircraft found the F104 difficult to dogfight with capable pilot - just so much thrust. You could try the flaps in the Mig though and see what happens.
A f104 is very easy to dogfight, and if you try to dogfight with it you are using it wrong, use the speed to fly away higher than the enemy can reach, then attack them from above. It isnt even a fighter, its a interceptor built for speed, it can fight other jets pretty well if you use the "boom and zoom" strategy however.
Its kinda like the russian mig-25/31 playstyle, you just stay so high enemies cant even reach you, and so fast that nothing sent at you would catch up anyways, then just drop them before they even knew. In close no good
15:30 Spinning and shooting missiles/gun made me chuckle.
Korean War fighter pilots who had tangled with enemy MiGs wanted something that was light, simple and capable of exceptional performance. Hence the F-104.
As the saying goes: be careful what you wish for..
The F-104A and -C were also very easy to maintain: 10-15 hours per flight hour. G model required more maintenance due to its more complex systems..
I'm just a fan of Military Aeronautics. I write from Italy, where, as you know, the LOCKHEED F-104 remained in service until the early 2000s ... with the F-104s ASA -M version, the 'RF-104G and TF-104G ..... if I remember correctly. I live in central ITALY, near ANCONA, and right on the vertical of my city, there is an "ITALIAN MILITARY AERONAUTICAL TRAINING AREA, and I remember the SONIC BOOMS (in the 80s / 90s), the fabulous F-104s, called "spilloni" from our pilots.
Un saluto ✌
Of note, the mig can handle low speed scissors if you drop to takeoff/landing flaps. The mig can be a monster low and slow to fly and fight against it. I have gone 5 and 1 against the 14 in a mig. The two aircraft are very similar but in terms of skill required to push the envelope of the aircraft the f104 is way worse off. If it is a game of trying to make the other guy mess up I would rather fly out with the 21 because you can recover from messing up much easier than a f104.
Yeah when dogfighting in the MiG as soon as you go below 500kph deploy take off flaps and keep the angle of attack right on the edge of the yellow and red, and make sure your emergency afterburner is on and you will become vastly better in a dogfight. If you watch Romanian airshows with the MiG 21 you can see then using takeoff flaps when they are maneuvering at slow speed. The flaps are also designed so they can't be oversped, they just push back up into the wing
@@crazygmanssimstuff Interesting 👍👍
@@Struktualnyj ua-cam.com/video/rV_GiOrqGRQ/v-deo.html
Me fighting in the MiG-21 this way, you do want to come off the throttle now and then to prevent overshooting.
you got the thrust numbers wrong,15650 is actually the MAXIMUM thrust that the mig 21 can do. The star fighter can get a maximum thrust of 17,900 lbf so the results are roughly in line
My fondest memories of the Starfighter are as a kid at the Greenham Common airshow in the 70's. Having them buzz over your head at low altitude and high speed was awesome!
The F-104 had a AoA warning system (APC) that prevented departure.
It was a very consensual dogfight. Fun to watch.
I have to laugh a little bit at all the "those numbers are wrong!" comments. Keep in mind, the only numbers that matter for these are the numbers DCS provides, not the actual real-world numbers. Hopefully, DCS gets close to the real thing...but if the model is inaccurate, that's not on Cap or GR...they have to work with what's available, and DCS doesn't always have the details correct.
That said, it's informative to read some of the true-to-life stats, especially when they differ in some significant degree. It's food for thought.
And I'd be careful waving statistics from one conflict as proof of one or the other as the better jet. Depending on where you looked in WWII, the P40 was either hopelessly outclassed by the Zero (almost everywhere the two met), or a Zero-eater (the Flying Tigers, in China). Pilot training, experience, and discipline can play as much or more of a role in combat results as the capabilities of the planes involved. That was the whole reason for establishing the Top Gun (USN) and Aggressor Squadron (USAF) programs.
15:39 i was watching from my bedroom with a sleepy mood, this scared the hell out of me.
I was very fortunate to have sat in a Japanese F-104 Starfighter at the Hamamatsu JASDF Museum in Shizoka, Japan. The cockpit was surprisingly small and tight but the jet was long and slender, a real beauty!
Jealous...
Very enjoyable. Took me back to the early 80s and watching the West Germans do great things with the 104
If the starfighter didn't outrun a mig21 in a drag race, I would have a serious problem taking it seriously.
Historically the F-104 and MiG-21 only clashed once. It was in 1971 Pakistani F-104A model versus Indian MiG-21FL so earlier versions of both planes.
Indian MiGs won scoring a gun kill on the Starfighter. And that saddens me, I consider the Starfighter one of the best looking aircraft in history. It looks like a missile that someone put wings on as an afterthought.
Actually clashed four times but MiG-21 won all of them
This is PAF pilots downed ( incl, Sqn)
1.W/C Middlecoat
2.F/L Chengazi
3. No pilot named but confirmed to be 9th Sqn RJAF
4. Another kill not admitted by PAF but confirmed to be of 9th Sqn RJAF
Because Pakistan pilots all stupid! They don't know how to fly F104 to fight!!
When I was stationed in West Germany several Luftwaffe pilots told me that in DACT they wanted to have their tip tanks on because provided additional wing area and improved the turn rate albeit with an small increment increase in drag. I think this same scenario here would be fun with the F-104S model the hottest of all the Starfighters.
A Mig 21 MF would have been a better match for the F104G which flew 10 years earlier then the Bis variant. An F-104S (1968) would probably be a Better match for the Bis (1972) with similar power to weight ratio.
The F104 was undoubtedly faster then the Mig21 at acceleration due to massive drag difference, not just because of a more refined shape (and there is a good deal there) but also about how crude the Soviet Planes were made. I remember an early eighties soviet Mig 23 pilot getting near a Viggen and gaping at how silky smooth the surfaces were compared to what he was used to. Soviet engines (the later Tumanski) were very powerful but also very lazy to rev up, even of full afterburner: to give you a comparison think of a GE TF-30 compared to a PW F100 in the late 70. On chart very similar but in practice the PW was much faster in a given time to accelerate. The J79 as considered an amazing engine until the Turbofan took over, where you could just slam the throttle forward without fear of engine stalls. this was not possible in a soviet Mig.
To get a better idea on how fast these plane are at brute force acceleration you should take off on a runway at speed 0, when aerodynamics is no concern, Full AB Carrier style take off, so that the engine is not a variable in the equation.
A Starfighter can turn with any non slatted Phantom, B/C/D/N/K above 450/480 knots and gets comparatively more agile when above Mach 1 where it suffers much less then displacement of aerodynamic centre. The problem, a big one, comes when you lose energy and you find yourself flying like a brick: a minute you were out-turning your opponent and a minute later you lose control or simply struggle to stay in the air pointing your nose around.
Google for the YT video "F-104 Starfighter Walkaround" by Eric Johnston: Good stuff!
Italian F-104S with the Aim7 would be a fun comparision.
@@lukewhitehouse4103 yes, but the fighter version was missing the gun. Due to the environment these dogfight are made in, the Fighter Bomber variant with with plenty of AIM-9F (a big step forward compared to the B version and more in line with the Atoll on the Bis) and the Vulcan would be a better choice
One thing that hasn't changed over the years is how gleeful Cap gets when shooting down Simba. 😁
GASP! You will now have to rename him from Damp sok to Wet sok after that splash into the drink!
Or do GR provide drying services so he may become Dry Sok? :D
That cobra was the sexiest cobra ive seen in DCS forever, shame he couldnt get some forward momentum back
This was the longest air to air fight I have ever seen 😂. It's a ambusher vs a bullet
That 6000 kelvin light source is a very attractive target
There is an excellent, brand new, video on how to fight with the F104 as it was meant to, very high and very, very fast.
How to get a Starfighter:
Buy a field and wait!
I love that we will have the f104 western 50's jet of the same generation as the mig21 although I just remembered the f5 very underestimated aircraft!
Oh no you didn't, "it like two old people bump uglys," lmmao good vid cap and crew
For decades I thought the F-104 was the greatest threat to defending NATO airspace. But I think you guys just showed that the F-104 operators had a real chance against of era Warsaw Pact hardware. I just assumed that the F-104 was MiG-21 chow.
F104 got shot down by 19s and 21s in rl. Didn't fair well tbh.
They really didn't though and the missile the F-104 is using is far too modern (Aim9M) the Luftwaffe had the Aim9B AIM-9B FGW 2 derrivative on the F104, an Aim9B sidewinder with an Aim9E seeker head the Aim9J was never purchased, The DDR was using both the R60 and the R60M (being an all aspect missile) an R60 can pull 30G.
Chinese MiG 19 shot down a USAF F104C in Vietnam.
Chap, Next time use mid flaps in the Mig-21 when your going slow like that. It'll help you in the turns.
Consensual gentlemen’s merge, sounds dirty.
both mods seemed decent , the star-fighter does accelerate faster in real watch pilot interviews they really are that fast , and the mig 21 did have bad visibility issues . the mig delta wing does out rate the small star-fighter wings but the star-fighter has better slow speed turning (i think)
From interviews the starfighter had poor maneuverability until high speed.
@@duanesamuelson2256 thats what the flaps 50 is good for
@@mikesmith-wk7vy I will take your word on it and jm sure it helps..just that the actual pilot interviews were along the line of it coming alive at high speeds. (Come alive =eat the pilot? Lol)
Regarding the drag race , I think “drag” is the operative word. Without accurate measurement of the planes’ aerodynamic drag across the spectrum of operational speeds, it’s difficult to assess their instantaneous acceleration.
Some of the F-104 Starfighters had their original engine replaced with the J79-GE-19, which provided 17,900 lbf (79.6 kN) of thrust in afterburner. The original engine only produced 15,600 lbf (69.39 kN) with afterburner. that's a 2,300 lbf increase.
Valued viewer request.
Super Cap V Kortana. 1 v 1 Dogfight, F-16. 2 x wing tip missiles & guns only. 80% internal fuel only starting at 10,000ft, clear sky. Best out of 3.
And
1 x Mossie guns only and 5 minutes to take out 500 killer robot cows!
500? 500?!
Come on Cap. Let's see you fight Kortana s'il vous plait. Give her the 105. You take any plane you fancy apart from the F-22.
yeah yeah and Simba vs Kortana, vs Cap vs RC. ooohhh we should do a 2v2 the main cast vs the supporting cast. hhhmmmmm.
@@simba1113 Now that sounds like fun to me Simba. Please make it so Super Cap!!!
starfighter was designed to defeat the mig in a vertical, not ratefight
NO sorry the drag on the F-104 is less than half the drag of the MiG 21 so it will out accelerate it but the MiG will out turn the F-104.
This was a great video, showing a classic duel that never took place in RL (that I know of).
1971 PAK-indo war. Mig won. Will do a vid.
@@grimreapers
Great!
F-104: *does a cobra*
Physics: wait. That's illegal
As I can remember German f104s almost always flew with wingtip-fueltanks for improved manouverabiltiy reasons .
Well, the fins on the tanks doubled the wing area 😎
On a more serious note: they acted as end plates which increased the lift of the wings.
the lookheed f-104g--starfighter. were used several countries. usa.japon.pakisytan.norway.portugal.italy.belgian.denmark.holland.canada.south korea.grecee.turkey.spain.germany..
I didn't like how you discovered the F-104 all of a sudden turned better with flaps down, about halfway through the fight tally. You supposedly had some practice flights before the contest.
I wish that I did have more stick time... I think I had about 10 minutes of practice before we started filming. I hadn't even figures out how to land it yet. I'd like to do it again with some more practice.
The only thing I've goto fault, is going to external view gave you an edge since you had lost them, don't know if they did external aswell, I think a redo with that restriction to stay in cockpit might of made a difference aswell.
I do enjoy GR vids, makes me want to actually play DCS (waiting on apache release)
Yeh I did think about it but we agree that as long as both of us can use external, doesn't really add an advantage?
@@grimreapers I'd say it depends on how you look at it. If you are looking from a raw performance perspective then not really, but if you are looking at it from the total package then it would be a buff to the aircraft with worse visibility.
@@grimreapers Yes and No, if both pilot A and B are both using it at the same time then not really an advantage, but if pilot A losses track and pilot B could then maneuver themselves into a better position because of it, but because pilot A can see Pilot B, pilot A's error/mistake hasn't made an impact.
It could be compared to playing a FPS one guy has a wall cheat and one doesn't, both know there is an enemy around, but one knows when to move.
Sorry if I sound like an arse, as I do enjoy these, I just thought it'd be a good way to compete more to see how pilots/airframes can be compairable, I also get going into external camera can help for cinematic effect for the video.
Again, my criticism means jack s**t since I don't play DCS nor am I a pilot, I'm just a viewer that enjoys watching these (I wish I could watch on twitch but being in australia times aren't good)
See Cap head directly for the sun in the Mig after that was exposed!! Hehe
Disappointed by the realism of the F-104
Edit: btw, Both planes did see combat during India-Pakistan conflicts. MiG-21 “won” but there were a lot of factors affecting the results.
What’s wrong with it?
There were two engagements in Indian air space ( easy win by migs) and two more in Pakistan air space ( were hard but still migs won ) of which all four engagements was won by Indian fishbeds
@@alandope8733 actually there were two confirmed kills
15:37 i love it 🔥
Awesome guys, good content 👍👍
No way the Mig-21 would beat the starfighter in a drag race.
I mean the f104 holds the low alt speed record but the mig is a bit smaller and light and has better thrust to weight so makes sense in acceleration but in top end starfighter should win easy
The Starfighter is not a fast as people think. It was extremely fast for the time (so was the 21) but by today standards there both pretty slow especially in acceleration
@@reichenwald-gm4qd Ye there both slow but would make sense for mig 21 to be faster in acceleration and f104 in top speed cuz of low alt record, aerodynamics etc
TWR is what counts in a drag race and aerodynamics dominate when it comes to top speed.
@@trolleriffic you said it much better
Kelly Johnson… nuff said.
Ultimate Interceptor battle.
And, ironically, some of the first true multirole jets (not counting Mirage), even if that caused massive problems in both.
star-fighter pilots said it had a 1-1 thrust to weight ratio and could hover in full afterburner and they were also able to push it to mach 2.3 although that damaged things
Yoooo, hell yeah cap well done also will you make a low alt speed record video
rgr
Wow I finally found someone with worse gunnery skill than Growling Sidewinder. I didn't think that was possible.
lols
There's a video on YT about a de-classified USAF assessment of different Soviet & US fighter aircraft and how they compare.
Can't find it though. One of the assessments was Mig-21 vs F-104 and as I recall the assessment found that Mig-21 was superior in every aspect.
The MiG 21 beat the F-104 in the air war between India and Pakistan.
The F-104 in all incarnations from the F-104A onwards was faster than the Mig-21 and had _much_ better acceleration and climb rate. The Starfighter had _far_ lower drag due to its tiny wings and slender fuselage. The plane was legendary for its speed, acceleration and climb rate and broke many records, which the Mig-21 was incapable of coming close to. Where the heck did you get the information that the Mig-21 was faster? Don't go there for any more information. The Starfighter went like a rocket though it turned only slightly better than a bullet. In skilled hands it could still beat a Mig-21 in a fight 1v1, though 2v2 or anything more complex and I'd bet on the Mig.
Should have had an East German Mig 21 Vs a West German Luftwaffe F-104. What a Clash!
Good cobra footage!
This was awesome! I had no idea the Starfighter could do the cobra or turn so tight. 🤷 I wish you could lock the Starfighter's flaps in Strike Fighters.
I do want to point out that in the 4 fundamentals of flight weight and thrust are not opposing forces therefore (and since the airplanes are basically the same weight) the aerodynamics of the planes would be more important for determining acceleration. And I think the 104 is more aerodynamic. Weight should effect the turn rates the most. Thrust would determine top speed. All that to say, I think the acceleration at low speed would go to the 104 while the mig probably has the top speed.
But I am not a scientist so could be wrong just a pilot in training.
thx
Actually, weight is not a factor for turn rate. Rate and radius of turn are controlled by bank angle and airspeed (excluding exotic tech such as thrust vectoring) For example, let's say we have two aircraft, a Cessna 172 and a Learjet. If both are in a sixty-degree banked turn (constant-altitude, coordinated turn), the Cessna will have a greater rate of turn but a smaller radius of turn. The Lear would have a slower rate of turn, but a greater radius of turn. However, both planes would be experiencing the same 2 g load factor. Also, thrust alone does not determine top speed. The airplane stops accelerating when thrust equals drag, and of course both those parameters can be affected by aircraft design, use of certain control surfaces, lowering or raising the nose so that gravity adds to or subtracts from the thrust vector, and so on. Also, when the aircraft is not in level flight, the four forces become a bit more complex, splitting into a combination of vectors. In a climb, for example, a component of weight is acting as drag, so it's not quite as simple as you might think. Former instructor.
Shouldn't the Starfighter be faster than Mig 21? Kelly Johnson basically designed the F-104 to outfly everything in point to point linear flight.
A starfighter would win a drag race. Power to weight is just one thing. The leading edge of the 104s wings were sharp enough to cut you. It was extremely aerodynamic. By this “power to weight ratio” logic how does a 5000lb Tesla eat a 3300lb corvette alive? Both in roughly the same power ballpark. Plus the Russian jet engines were not very refined. They put down power numbers but that’s about it. I work for Lockheed so maybe I’m biased. I also drive a Vette and Tesla’s upset me… lol
15:38WHOA!!!
That was AWESOME!!!
For two short winged powerful interceptors, these were actually really entertaining to watch. Going one circle two circle and rolling scissors. Who knew!
Reminds me of 1971 war , f104 were dominated by the mig21s
during 1971 Indo Pak war IAF MiG-21s faced off against PAF F-104As and shot down two of them for no loss.
1. during peak of war Wing Commander Mervyn Leslie Middlecoat was leading flight of two F-104As on strafing mission on IAF Jamnagar, His flight was intercepted by by pair of MiG-21s, unable to outrun or outmaneuver nimble MiG, he was shot down in gun attack off coast of Jakhau. he ejected over marshes and no trace of him was ever found, IAF pilot who shot him down was F/L Bharat Bhushan Soni
2. On 17th December 1971, last day of war, S/L Rashid Bhatti was leading flight of two RJAF F-104As (transferred to PAF during war) with F/L Samad Changezi as wingman on a CAP mission over Thar desert. his pair was in "guns only" configuration as they were carrying two drop tanks on wingtip pylons, an inexplicable error by mission planners. Samad saw pair of MiG-21s and got behind lead MiG-21. He took time to fire gun as he closed in , meanwhile MiG wingman, F/L Arun Dutta closed behind him. Rashid tried to warn Samad but radio was broken. Arun fired two K-13s one of which found its mark. Samad couldn't eject from his exploding aircraft. MiGs disengaged as they were probably short of fuel
the war also saw other some other mach 2 encounters like Mirage 3 vs Su-7
@@aeronaut1406 yes! IAF vs PAF is always interesting, both sides punching each other , like in 1965 war , IAF mig21 pilots were not trained properly, the soviet mig21 training facility was shit, as a result one IAF MiG21 was shot downed by a PAF F86. Note that Paf f86 pilots were highly. skilled
@@Deadpool-rw1pk actually MiG-21 was shot down by F-86 in 1971 war, it didn't see any air combat in 1965 war due to poor training facilities and lack of tactics on type. but several were destroyed on ground by F-86s and B-57s
@@aeronaut1406 oh!
@@aeronaut1406 no migs were lost in 71
during 1971 Indo Pak war IAF MiG-21s faced off against PAF F-104As and shot down two of them for no loss.
1. during peak of war Wing Commander Mervyn Leslie Middlecoat was leading flight of two F-104As on strafing mission on IAF Jamnagar, His flight was intercepted by by pair of MiG-21s, unable to outrun or outmaneuver nimble MiG, he was shot down in gun attack off coast of Jakhau. he ejected over marshes and no trace of him was ever found, IAF pilot who shot him down was F/L Bharat Bhushan Soni
2. On 17th December 1971, last day of war, S/L Rashid Bhatti was leading flight of two RJAF F-104As (transferred to PAF during war) with F/L Samad Changezi as wingman on a CAP mission over Thar desert. his pair was in "guns only" configuration as they were carrying two drop tanks on wingtip pylons, an inexplicable error by mission planners. Samad saw pair of MiG-21s and got behind lead MiG-21. He took time to fire gun as he closed in , meanwhile MiG wingman, F/L Arun Dutta closed behind him. Rashid tried to warn Samad but radio was broken. Arun fired two K-13s one of which found its mark. Samad couldn't eject from his exploding aircraft. MiGs disengaged as they were probably short of fuel
thx will do this.
@@grimreapers Right thanks
The starfighter would always out accelerate a mig because much less drag and smaller wings.
Ah, but the MiG could often outmaneuver the most wily of foes, by rapidly altering its center of gravity. Mostly by parts falling off, but still.
Drag effects top speed more then acceleration. Power to weight influence acceleration esspesially at low speeds in a dogfight and the MiG-21bis with emergency afterburner has around a 1.11 power to weight ratio and even without the emergency burner it's 0.79
The starfighters ratio is 0.72 which is just slightly better then the MiG 19s 0.71
@@crazygmanssimstuff thicker air at low alt,more drag
@@Lightning_aus Still doesn't matter enough at low speed, and especially in a dogfight when your pulling AoA and the Starfighter starts becoming more draggy especially with the wing tanks. Even in a straight line the MiG Is also very streamline by design and it's going to crush the starfighter due to the vastly better thrust to weight.
@@crazygmanssimstuff the 104 should out accelerate the mig, as shown in the video. Sure its a bit quicker than reality but its still accurate
Something you could try for the Mig21 is this. According to Ward Carroll a F14 jockey who flew dissimilar training against a Mig21 out in the Nevada test ranges if a Mig21 uses flaps during a turn it considerably increases turn rate in a vertical (and possibly any turn- I'm not sure) fight. Its mentioned in his video about "the secret program that hid a more secret program". Might have helped here?
_Have Donut_ was the name of that program. They got a Fishbed-E from Israel after Mossad got an Iraqi pilot to defect in 1966.
The performance evaluations are pretty interesting!
@@mrkeogh yes it was a very interesting comparison between the F14 and the various Soviet aircraft!
So.... You do know that Eric Hartmann resigned his position with the Luftwaffe over the development of the NATO Star Fighter program. My Father(Joe Hartmann), Eric's American nephew and a aeronautical engineer worked on the 104. Dad spent a too much time in Brussels during those years and worked a bit with his uncle up until his resignation. Anyway, Pops died way to young at 65 (30 years ago)but he made his mark on advanced avionics working on iconic projects like the original F15 Radar, A10 Laser guidance, F111 and other airframes. His most profound work involved the creation of phased array radar which is basically the backbone of the Aegis systems Cap loves so much.
just thought you might like the geek out.
Amazing story thanks!
@Sixgun Symphony He thought it was a death trap. Killed a fair score of young German Pilots. He also felt that the entire program was being rammed down NATO's throat by the US.
mikoyan mig-21-fishbed is produced with over 20.000 copies.
MiG can use Takeoff flaps for dogfighting to gain low speed stability. They will automatically retreat at higher speeds
Today, I learned that the simulated F-104 can do a Cobra! (once).
lol yes
BEsides t/w ration, shouldn't drag also impact the drag race performance? To the eye, the 104 looks less draggy overall.
Both require pilot skill to make full use of their advantages, and also both during their service where falsely defamed by names like flying coffin and widowmaker.
The mig21 is definitely not faster than an f104g. Both planes are pretty similar but the starfighter has better acceleration and a higher top speed.
There's more to acceleration than power-to-weight ratios.
Anybody have data showing acceleration rates of MIG-21BIS and F-104G?
The zero Lift-Drag Coefficient for the F104 was 0.017, The Mig21 at zero incidence is 0.028, Ok not exactly like for like but its the nearest data I can find. So I think the F104 is a bit more slippery than the Mig21 so that would affect the Acceleration.
@@henrykbanasiak2499 Thanks. I thought that might be the case.
You sound like Lando Norris…really, you do
Great fight, old fighters have bigger souls
The Sun... the Sol system's largest flare.
Cap has used the sun against me so many times I figured I would use it my self
@@simba1113 lol turn about IS fair play
No F-104G ever used AIM-9Ms.
Yeah, personally I feel this mod is more for a fan of the F-104, not like the heatblur F-14 team who put so much effort into realism and the weaknesses of the aircraft. Watching an F104 with flaps out dogfight a MiG 21 BIS is just pure fiction, it also as you said should be using the AIM-9B FGW 2 as the Luftwaffe never purchased the Aim9J for their F104 fleet.
This already gives the DDR/Soviet MiG 21 an advantage using the R60 or R60m.
thx
Imagine your real enemy saying good shot to you
Historically, the Mig 21 did better when the two fought.
I'm hoping the Starfighter wins though. I love the missle with a man in it.
With those short stubby wings, don't you think that drag would be much lower in the starfighter? It had 80% of the wing area of the MiG-21 and climbed faster iirc than the MiG-21.
the star-fighter accelerated a bit faster in real but the mig had a variable air intake that worked better around mach 2 .
Is there a Thundercheif mod for this? would love to see it vs the fishbed.
Can you refuel with it?
neg
can use flaps in the mig too...but not that often
4:32 There I thought Cap had said a cuss word and then purposefully edited a heatseeker lock tone to censor it
lol im not that smart!
Oh yeah can you recreate the Indian mig21 that shot down paf f104 1971 war in the war it downed four f104
yes will do!
during 1971 Indo Pak war IAF MiG-21s faced off against PAF F-104As and shot down two of them for no loss.
1. during peak of war Wing Commander Mervyn Leslie Middlecoat was leading flight of two F-104As on strafing mission on IAF Jamnagar, His flight was intercepted by by pair of MiG-21s, unable to outrun or outmaneuver nimble MiG, he was shot down in gun attack off coast of Jakhau. he ejected over marshes and no trace of him was ever found, IAF pilot who shot him down was F/L Bharat Bhushan Soni
2. On 17th December 1971, last day of war, S/L Rashid Bhatti was leading flight of two RJAF F-104As (transferred to PAF during war) with F/L Samad Changezi as wingman on a CAP mission over Thar desert. his pair was in "guns only" configuration as they were carrying two drop tanks on wingtip pylons, an inexplicable error by mission planners. Samad saw pair of MiG-21s and got behind lead MiG-21. He took time to fire gun as he closed in , meanwhile MiG wingman, F/L Arun Dutta closed behind him. Rashid tried to warn Samad but radio was broken. Arun fired two K-13s one of which found its mark. Samad couldn't eject from his exploding aircraft. MiGs disengaged as they were probably short of fuel
@@aeronaut1406 eh search for Iaf combat kills 1971 by Harry B talks about all kills made by iaf confirmed no claims only confirmed kills
National interest mig21 beat f104 by charlie G talks about how did the migs outclassed the f104s downing between 3 and five f104
Mig21 combat history
And this whole 1971 war the migs had scored six combat victories all confirmed and I did my research trust me it was a long research I’ve confirmed all six kills 4 f104 2 MiG19 but no f86 Sabre no c130
You can see I’m not using Bharat rakshat or other Indian websites since they could be just claims so I used other sources and post war survey which it is in Iaf combat kills 1971 to confirm migs 21 kills of 1971
@@alandope8733 then please name pilots of other two F-104s as well as IAF pilots who shot them down. I've done my research by cross checking proofs, claims and acceptances on both sides.
sources consulted:
Indian official history of 1971 war
In the ring and on its feet- story of PAF during 1971 war by AC Kaiser Tufail
@@alandope8733 No MiG-19s only two confirmed kills by F/L Bharat Bhushan Soni and F/L Arun Dutta
There's your problem lady, you let a German fly it. German loss rate for the F-104 was 32%. German loss rate for the Bf 109 was 33%. There's a pattern here.:O
scary
@@grimreapers It is for a German pilot. :O
…actually the F-104 had an automatic control for slats and flaps, controlled by an angle of attack sensor.
As the drag of the F-104 is smaller due to its size (or the lack thereof), an advantage in acceleration would not be unlikely.
thx
Who would win in dogfight with equal pilots? A Mig21 or an F106? They are both Delta wing late 50's fighters. It'd be too close to call I think
thank you for the content.
Did the mod come with the standard Lockheed bribes?
american planes had vastly better acceleration , so much so " just accelerating away " was in fact an early defensive tactic
Not too bad of a showing considering the Starfighter was never meant to be a dogfighter. It's mission was to catch Soviet bombers as fast as possible and shoot them down before entering U.S. airspace.