A Seventh Nation in Six Nations Rugby is Happening, AND HERE’S WHY!
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- Опубліковано 10 лют 2024
- the heart of the Six Nations Rugby debate with our latest video. Join us as we dissect the controversial topic of whether the tournament should expand to include a seventh nation or preserve its traditional structure. From examining the historical roots of the competition to analyzing the financial implications of potential changes, we leave no stone unturned in this thought-provoking exploration.
Of course, this weekend you can enjoy England vs Ireland and Italy vs Scotland.
Get ready to challenge your perceptions and join the conversation on the future of Six Nations Rugby.
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**** I just want to offer my apologies ****
I clearly misread during my research, the championship sides coming in to the world rugby competition in 2026 aren’t from Europe, they’re from SANZAAR Championship. South Africa, Argentina, New Zealand, and Australia.
I promise to do better in future 😔
Could you leave out the background noise/tunes and memes too, and just narrate (which you do fine). Always feel I'm being patronised by memes and if your content is good you don't need it or the irritating noise.
@@mikhaildas fixed
Great video. Great Audio, Great images and gameplays, Good Narration. Information wise, perfect. Well contextualized from a historic and economic point of view and issues that people commonly talk about in RU specially for those Tier 2 nations who need high competition to be able to develope. Nothing to worry about just for one mistake.. Thanks a lot for the content.
Pfff, pequeña diferencia! Pasar de jugar conta Rumania, Portugal, España....a jugar vs NZ, SA, Australia y Pumas 😂😂😂
@@a..j3783 mucha diferencia no hay (hasta la patada inicial)
Rugby should be doing all in its power to grow the game... Europe, South America, Pacific Islands, Africa... Kenya are amazing at sevens, for example... growing the game is how you get more money long term!
Whilst I agree about growing the game, how it's being grown is wrong - especially in Wales.
The Six Nations works well enough, would a promotion/relegation work? Maybe, but would you want England, Wales, Scotland etc. relegated and replaced with Georgia, Romania, Germany or Portugal? Would that not cheapen the tournament? Perhaps it's then best to lock-in those six teams (and, let's face it, Italy aren't wonderful at the moment but they'd beat Georgia, Romania etc.)
What we need to do is develop skills in youngsters and go back to the days of allowing full contact in schools, not kowtowing to those who shriek about how dangerous rugby is. The very same people could get hit by a bus tomorrow - do we then ban buses? Wales also needs to ditch its toxic infatuation with the regions and develop the club game and stadia.
too much gatekeeping , even outside the private six nation tournament ...
@@user-bv5lc1nf5d why would that cheapen the tournament - depends what you mean by cheapen - morally it wouldn’t, maybe financially - but that’s short sighted...
@@vadergrd yes, it’s despicable the way the island nations have been treated over the last few decades - all their best players poached and little financial help... rugby needs to be careful... who wants a Japanese or Irish team full of kiwi and South African d-list players? More like a club game than national these days... this qualifying by residency is a joke! 👍
@@dannyboywhaa3146 It would cheapen the tournament because it's meant to be a knockout trophy between six nations who play in relative proximity to each other.
'It's short sighted' - bollocks, to be frank. Wales has long been told this by so-called rugby experts - 'the regions will work, to criticise them is short sighted', 'we must get rid of people we don't like from Welsh rugby, not to do so would be short sighted'. The result is that Wales is now broken as a rugby nation and has one region (Scarlets) in major financial trouble.
Years ago, before the Sports Science Degree Virgins got involved, clubs put in profits and Rugby Tournaments worked far better. Then Mr. and Mrs. I Think got involved and because what they thought mattered more (plus financially they could pressgang their way in to the sport) and we've lost a lot of the sport and what made it good - as for the bunker system, shove it!
There's also, shock horror, many fans who financially couldn't afford to watch Wales games (for instance) in Georgia or South Africa - but I guess the reply will be 'well they shouldn't be poor then, that's their fault'.
When a lot of the clubs HATE Abi Tierney and the WRU liars and are against the international league which William G. Beaumont et al wish to establish for reasons, then the disconnect between fans and game is starting. The days of 'let's try this to p*ss off the fans' are fast coming to an end as people will vote with their feet and wallets and say 'no way.'
1) Love our Saffas friends and I'm glad they are with us in the URC, BUT it would sincerely be the worst idea ever to add them to the 6N. It would just kill what makes international rugby so great (6N/RC on one side and test rugby/World Cup on the other). It would dilute everything.
2) A relegation system won't happen simply because of $$$. The 6 federations greatly depend from the 6N money. A relegation for Wales, Italy, Scotland or Ireland would instantly kill their domestic rugby. France and England might survive a bit but it surely wouldn't be pretty to watch.
3) This tournament is almost 150 years old. That + the fact that the 6 countries are all neighbors are what make this competition so special. Especially for the lads from the home nations, they surely would never accept a format that may prevent them from playing each other to compete for the Triple Crowns (or Calcutta cup for SCO/ENG).
It was World Rugby's job to sort things out to help the game to grow and this new incoming Nations League was the opportunity. But they failed miserably by only allowing the promo/relegation system to start from 2030 and not directly in 2026. Such a shame for the Tier 2 teams.
No Way should SA. Join. Let Africa build its own African Tournament. The wooden Spoon Winners in top tier be Relegated and winner of B tier come up. Not Complicated
And play who Namibia Zambia kenya
@@Lorenzo-iw9nj why Not. Built up Game Everywhere 🤔🧐
@@Lorenzo-iw9nj😂 wtf would rather play against ourselves how are they any competition?
Well said
I'm an American who hasn't watched a single game or rugby or even really care about it, but i watched the whole video, good content man!
This has to be one of the best bits of feedback I’ve ever had. Hugely appreciate you 👍🙏
Romania had its strong years, but the cream of Tier Two is clearly Georgia. Yes, the RWC appearance was not great at all, but Georgia dominates Tier Two the way Italy used to until they made 6 Nations.
100% agree. Although Romania is still a remarkably great rugby nation, Georgia deserves it more to be playing in the Six Nations. Georgia won the European Rugby Championship for the 7th time in a row now.
I would suggest to work with a system of promotion and relegation from the Six Nations and give Georgia a fair chance of gaining access to the Six Nations.
For me the six nations should be a European competition. I’d prefer to see other tier 2 European teams growing and developing through being added.
like a euro cup next to a world cup, like in any other sport.
Well put together - surprised that you only have 678 subscribers. Make that 679 ... I can going to check out your other content. Subbed😃👍
Wow, thank you! - seem to have lost a couple since you commented but my content is diverse - so it doesn't come as a surprise. I really appreciate you and hopefully you'll be around for a while
Great content and editing! Thank you for the video
My pleasure, thanks for the feedback and comment
Editing is on point man, subbed.
Oh wow thank you for the positive feedback and welcome aboard. 👍
The main critisism of the Six Nations from other teams is they don’t get to test themselves against the best.
If there was a European Championship along the lines of football. And Six Nations teams participated in European qualifiers for World Cups (No automatic qualifying for next tournament for third or better in pool stage) the game could actually be given a chance to grow outside tier 1 nations.
If they did that they could keep the Six Nations to themselves. And they could use the qualifiers to give new guys a chance or the U20s
It makes no sense that there isn't one every 4 years. 6 Nations save for Italy would still dominate, but it would give T2 teams an incredible opportunity to grow and would be a spectacle to fans.
Yeh I think this would work too.
Have a pan European competition every four years - 2025, 29, 33 ie. Halfway in the world cup cycle.
No 6 nations and rugby Europe that year. Hold the tournament in the same 7 weekend window those tournaments are in Feb and March - no rest weeks.
14 Teams in those two tournaments.
Ireland, France, Scotland, Italy, Wales, and England from 6 nations.
Then Georgia, Portugal, Spain, Romania, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, and Poland from the current Rugby Europe Championship.
Add 2 more for 16 - the top performing countries in tier below that (Russia an obvious elephant in the room, but for sanctions would be ahead of e or 4 or those teams at least - and presumably will be back in the fold again some years down the line). Failing that two guest teams to make 16, choose not from the Rugby Championship ie. Opportunity for two from Japan, Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, or Uruguay on condition they play no home games.
Have a tournament with 4 groups of 4 then knockouts rounds would be good one year in four.
Give extra games for T2, also would give knockout intl Rugby to the top teams outside of the world cup too for an extra angle.
And then keep the 6 nations as it is for all the other years.
@@Luic1987 Not at all what I’m suggesting. Your proposal is basically replace one bad tier system with another almost equally bad.
I think for the European Championship to actually work you need to hold it every four years as you propose. And have 1 or 2 hosts, no country has automatic qualification appart from the host. Say 16 teams, four groups - three group games each, quarter final, semi final, final. And leave the 6 nations as it is every year if they want it.
Have a qualifier where teams are divided into 8 groups based on ranking. Group winners and 6 best second placed teams qualify. 7th and 8th best second placed team play a knockout for last place. Or If two hosts 7 groups two best team from each group qualify. Giving all current low tier teams participating a chance to play against better opposition to improve.
And under no circumstances EVER have invites for non-european countries. Giving a place or two to Uruguay or Japan over the Czech Republic or Austria goes against the whole idea of having a European championship in the first place.
Doing invites makes sense when you can’t make up the numbers to 16, but Europe doesn’t have that problem. So it makes more sense to give those places to European teams who perhaps aren’t good enough now. But will be given the opportunity of proper matching. Not to mention give their talent a chance to be discovered by professional clubs.
South Africa no. South Africa please God no.
Ireland has entered the room!
Great video - above and beyond your subscriber count
positive feedback is much appreciated! thank you 👍
Keep the euro teams playing euro teams. The Southern hemisphere has its own nations comps. Having SA muddying the 6 nations would be stupid. There are so many countries in Europe that could benefit with a promo relegation comp that that is where the growth should happen for Europe.
yea like they literally already play a tournament with the All Blacks Australia and Argentina LOL
plus their fans have no respect for the Six Nations as a competition
Questionning Italy's involvement only under the prism of the win/lost rate is totaly misleading. Of course from that point of view they don't deserve their seat in the tournament at all. In the worsts years, let's say, 2018-2021, anyone could get the bonus point before half-time with their B team. Fortunatly, it had never been that bad before, far from it. They won 2 games in 2007 and 2 games in 2013, and around those years, they beat france twice, wales once and scotland quite regularly. Most important, they were often close to win other matches or at least, almost always gave a good challenge, and one-sides games were pretty rare. You can't tell to a nation who trhought these 2 decades gave the game players like Dominguez, Troncon, Bergamasco brothers, Lo Cicero, Parisse, Castrogiovani, Masi, Lamaro, Garbisi, Capuozzo... To go down and put 70 points to Belgium and Germany.
You mentioned England beat Romania several times but failed to mention Scotland beat Romania 84 - 0 (12 tries to 0) just a few months ago. Romania's record is good because they don't play good teams! The tier one nations don't even send their best players. The problem that needs to be tackled is the massive division between tier 1 and tier 2 nations.
Romania just got pummeled by Portugal this weekend, 49-24. They are no longer what they used to be.
Well put together. New sub
Welcome!
Lol adding the springboks will just mean no other team will list that trophy again
I've always thought the six nations should work on the bottom team being demoted to the tier 2 European tournament and the Winner of that said tournament promoted to the six nations, which would heat up both contests and give tier 2 sides more experience of world class rugby. It's got to be good for the game, hasn't it?
I think I'm swayed to agree with you - some argue that Italy or Scotland maybe would suffer in their development, but they are better equipped to come back up at the first attempt, so therefore it gives them a season of enjoying success. It might turn out a yoyo effect but I still favour the idea
It would bankrupt the relegated union (especially if you are ITA, SCO, WAL or IRE). The 6N is the biggest single earner for the involved Unions. Given each Union owns an equal stake in the competition, a unanimous vote would be required to make any serious changes to the competition and no Union will vote for a likely (especially in the case of Italy) bankruptcy. The only way you could potentially make it work is expansion to 8 teams with a playoff game to determine promotion/relegation, thus you get a safety blanket (2 teams that are currently less favoured than the existing teams, as well as a playoff against a team even further down the pecking order).
However, that then involves 2-4 extra games per year in an already super congested Rugby calendar. Club sides and players' representatives probably wouldn't allow it.
One of Italy problems was by the time they joined the 6 nations the golden generation had retired or were over the hill. They never really had a FH for years.
Yes but their the best of the "tier 2 teams" if you will. So they make good underdogs in when playing more established teams. They are working in a positive direction recently.
Super pleased with this one. What’s your thoughts about an extra nation ?
don't think it will happen, the tournament is more about travel, entertainment than sport. who's going to travel to south africa or from south africa, or georgia?
@@billbobby461it’s definitely a long way. Particularly given one of the comments on this vid suggests there were 35k England fans in Italy two weeks ago
It’s barely sustainable to have South African teams in the URC.
As a South African, I think it will be fantastic.
Our players are in a difficult situation. They play their club rugby according to the northern season, but their international rugby, according to the southern season. If they join the Six Nations, they will be able to give their players an off-season break. At the moment, their players have to play the whole year without a break.
I will change the six nations to eight nations. Two groups, first group England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales, second group France, Italy, South Africa and Romania or Georgia. Group winners play a final , group runners-up play for 3rd and 4th, and so on.
It will allow one more European team. It will align the SA season, and South Africa will bring the second biggest rugby viewership in the world.
Many South African businesses have moved to Europe, but they are still run by South Africans, and the chances are good that they will get involved with sponsorships if South Africa plays. Investec is a good example if this.
@iowadrummer7 I am not sure what you are talking about. Since the SA teams have joined the URC, they have been breaking records in terms of viewership, attendance, and revenue. The competition is also much more competitive. What am I missing?
The 'Cosy Club' could find themselves very much on the back foot, much the way cricket did with the advent of Kerry Packer or the Indian T20 comp.
If it was the Seven Nations Championship we all know what the theme music would have to be.
Enlighten the viewers with what you think it would be 🤷♂️🏉
Please share lol
It would have to be 8 Nations for the song to make sense. Each team would then play 7 other nations
Seven Nation Army?
@@shotzbyfelix8530yh, but they’d need their own version and it’s hard to make one as unique as the Glitch Mob’s remix
Expanding to more nations could be incredibly complicated.
It could be a boon to fans who get to watch more high level rugby, but it also could create burnout.
For the business side of things, you create a lot of income opportunity, but you're also going to get puchback from the club teams these players are drawn from. The longer you take these players away, the longer those clubs have to play understrength or wait on their own money making opportunities.
For a competition like this, you alao have to intelligently add opposition. You need teams that are financially viable, available at the right times, able to travel, and poasibly most importantly, have an already-existing rivalry or sense of competition with the other teams. Adding a Japan or a USA, for example, wouldn't make any sense because they have no real stake in the competition other than purely finance.
Adding in a 7th team will also create the exact same environment that lead to Italy being added, with a team every week playing a team with no skin in the overall competition.
Please don't add the USA though, we don't deserve it. We can't even run our own league right. And also the LA team's logo looks like a penis.
Great vid. League players on front was on purpose?
first thumbnail didn't perform, I liked the look of those two so attempted to make it stand out - and yes it did cross my mind that they aren't union internationals, but took a chance all the same 😬
updated - felt pressured lol
@@pioneeringmediaAll good. I love both games. Here in the USA probably 0.01 % of people know the difference. I have a few friends like me who love both. Did you get pressured by Union or League people?
Sorry lost in translation maybe. I meant when you highlighted the league players in the thumb, I wanted to alter it to a union player. Thanks 🙏
The "cosy club" was built by those 6 nations. Together, these nations have built one of the most impressive competitions in rugby.
When the Tri Nations was considered to be the best tournament outside of the WC, I didn't hear anything about South Africa looking to join. They should commit to the tournament they're in and make it more competitive. The rugby championship is an important tournament, losing one of its best teams would be catastrophic.
If the goal is more money for a select few nations you invite South Africa or NZ. If the goal is to grow the sport and help tier 2 nations grow you create a relegation playoff. Tier 2 rugby needs more games against tier 1 nations.
Adding a 7th team shouldn't even be considered. The tournament doesn't need extra games. Less is more.
Another point to add is when SH teams play NH teams it's special. Special because these games don't happen often. It's easy to dilute these games if they're taking place every year.
I think you might have got this wrong, the new nations championship will feature the southern hemisphere rugby nation teams (Aus,NZ,SA & Arg) as well as Fiji and Japan. Not the championship sides. Who will be ring fenced away till at least 2030.
Someone else had pointed this out. My research suggested it would be championship sides but thanks for the correction. 👍🙏
In reality, all it will do is give some structure to the Autumn internationals. So similar to WXV 1,2&3, but over multiple years and not in one location.
Money is the single reason that it won't happen.The only real source of income the 6 have are the gate receipts and TV rights to the 6 nations and the Autumn internationals. Getting relegated would decimate those incomes. As all 6 of them have a veto on change (all changes have to be agreed unanimously), they simply will not agree to it.
Adding a seventh country might seem superficially attractive, but finance raise its head again. Unless the new addition increases the income by a sixth, that means everyone taking a cut in income.
It actually gets worse, the English and French players are contracted to clubs and the unions have to pay for their release to play. So any 7th country would have to increase the income by a sixth plus the additional costs of release. As many of the Georgian players play for English and French clubs, they too will be playing release fees.
The best you could hope for would be something akin to "The Churchill Cup", where the Saxons, Wolfhounds and other 6 nations "A" teams played in a tournament with other European teams.
Would it be possible to find a way for parachute payments similar to the EPL and championship?
@@pioneeringmedia That just means another hand in the pot. So now we are sharing the money into more pockets and funding the release of even more players.
I suppose a Rugby weekend in Tblisi, Bucharest or even Lisbon wouldn't have the same glamorous connotations as setting off to Rome. However, for the development of the game in Europe, a play off relegation/promotion fixture should be held each year between the Championship winners and the wooden spoon side in the 6 Nations. Would make things way more interesting. Maybe do the same with 7 Nations instead to give any side promoted a better chance of staying in the top flight as it could well be a yo-yo situation for some time.
Yeah the yo yo is something I mentioned in a previous comment - that would be a major concern. However the general consensus is promotion and relegation in some format would work - thanks for the comment, I really appreciate it
Make it 8. Georgia plus a guest team to play out of a european city for two years, before a different guest team takes the next two years.
Relegation, bottom team over a two year period plays at home a play off game with the top team over those two yeara from the european rugby championship.
So south africa based in amsterdam for two years then, argentina based in madrid for two years.
Relegation as it stands would be devastating for the game in italy, and an extra european team mitigates this somewhat, if they finish the lowest team over a two year period then lose a home playoff game to portugal/romania etc for example then that team deserves to go down.
Away weekends in amsterdam, madrid and tiblisi - awesome!
That reminds me of a old WWII movie in which a sergeant tells a private, "The Army will never go for something like that-- it makes too much sense..." ;-)
Como Argentino y para que siga creciendo el Rugby a nivel mundial, tendrian que sentarse y armar torneos atractivos, ya que paises como uruguay y Chile ( crecio mucho estos ultimos años) no tienen ningun torneo competitivo y meterlos en un SANZAR no tiene sentido porque no aprenderian nada, tiene que tener un torneo de TIER 2 y 3. Saludos!
That’s a great comment and thank you for contributing - wish you well 👍
Give them time. Honestly. Argentina aren't too dissimilar to Italy in the south, always last or third. France took almost 50 years to register success. Italy are doing much better than we give them credit for. Other countries have to want to grow the game and therefore Italy must retain their spots.
Yes i eluded to how long it took France. Granted it was a different era but I think Italy should remain their status. Someone mentioned make it 8 nations and split into two pools. I think I like that idea
Argentina are a far better side than Italy... Argies have a better world cup record that Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Yes perennially, third or fourth, but up against the Boks and Blacks ever year so would most 6N sides.
There shud be multiple levels with promotion and relegation
2:20 I've been saying this for ages. The 6 Nations wooden Spoon should have to do a 3 game play-off series, against the winners of the European rugby championship. The winner gets the 6 Nations and the Loser is Demoted into the European rugby championship.
3:16 do they have this record because they're playing poor quality opponents?
it seems that they do (on your second point)
If that happened to Italy, most people might think "fair enough", but what if Scotland or Wales got the wooden spoon for example, and got booted out into a European Rugby championship? Then it wouldn't really be the Six Nations at all as we've known it. It would lose all its historical significance
@@hankscorpion9939 they would have to get gud.
you just made a movie in 9 mins that dervesds a sub
Ah lovely thank you 🙏 please stick around, although I don’t specifically concentrate on rugby, I do like to mix sporting events and questions in the content
Long-term forecasting videos analysing how sports can improve in genuine meaning are always welcome with me.
Dithering over Italy's inclusion in the to-be 6Nations until the year 2000 was a terrible mistake of the then-IRB.
Mistakes clearly haven't been learned - or accepted.
Like European association football, Rugby Union's international club scene has great potential.
Balancing the desire to keep regional core fanbases happy, with branching out to those who are clearly serious about inclusion - AND respect; a seemingly tricky one, for some.
Yet like association football; making the top-table European club tournament a Champions'-only event would certainly streamline the approach to the sport's soul and meaning, rather than streamlining the participant origins.
Personally, yes I'd love to see Georgia given inclusion in the club scene first, and on proven infrastructure, the 6Nations relegation-promotion protocol introduced. Yet at the same time, in retrospective apologies to the Italians whose 1st great team were criminally-excluded until the likes of Vacari, Dominguez and Ceccenato were at the end of their careers is also in order.
So the real question I pose to the Rugby Union world is HOW do we find European Club Rugby solutions that give everyone room for progression AND inclusion?
The answers that I see are a 15-club Champions' Cup, plus a 2nd tier tournament heavily geared towards successful domestic nations' clubs.
Champions' Cup: 3 pools of 5 teams.
Five Gameweeks; two home fixtures, two away fixtures, one Gameweek sat out by all five parties.
The Three pool winners automatically qualify for Semi-finals,
joined by a 1st-best pool runner-up vs 2nd-best pool runner-up play-off winner.
To protect the tournament's meaning for those who have lost two game after Gameweek 3,
3rd-best pool runner-up and all three 3rd-placed pool teams enter the Challenge Cup 2nd-tier competition's Last 16 one-legged knockout phase, but BOTH 4th-placed & 5th-placed pool teams must exit all European participation for that given season.
This, in conjunction with domestic club leagues in England, in France, and in the Rugby Championship, all streamlined to 10 top Division clubs;
each playing nine domestic Gameweeks (five home/four away, or four home/five away),
before a cut;
Top half of Division cut play each other in return fixtures (in four remaining Gameweeks).
Ditto for Bottom half Division cut clubs, with brutal relegation protocol.
Two down (10th, 9th) automatically,
8th forced with a one-legged away play-off against 3rd in Division two,
7th a home one-legged home play-off vs 4th a Division lower.
Only 6th in the bottom half of the cut safe, to rest weary players.
Fewer fixtures,
but more meaning in every sense for all parties.
Inclusion for all serious about the sport.
Opportunity and soulful meaning to the tournaments.
That’s a great insight. Thank you for sharing
I think that a joining the Tier One and Tier Two teams for a 12-Nations competition would help a lot for the develpoment of the Rugby15. I know about the fact that teams from Romania down would be "sitting ducks" for the Four Nations, but the problem of promotion/relegation would be solved, on a way, because England, Wales, Scotland or France would never go that down. The money would help the less developed teams to form, and create professional leagues on those contries, for example.
But let's see about the other ideas that were made for the next years. On the big picture, all World Cups, from the 20 - in 2027 will be 24 - 12 have his place garanteed. And if people want rugby to thrive, other countries must have their chance.
South Africa should join. At the moment, South African players have to play in two different seasons. They play club rugby in the north and international rugby in the south.
My solution is simple two groups of four teams. Wales, England, Ireland, and Scotland in one group. France, Italy, South Africa, and Georgia or Romania in the second group. The group winners play a final, runners up for 3rd and 4th, and so on.
It will allow the South African players an off-season. It will allow one more European team. South Africa also brings the second largest rugby viewership in the world.
Yes, have this idea too - those two groups, then split into top and bottom for two more games. Then relegation playoff.
@exeterjedi6730 I agree. The top two playing semi and final and bottom two playing plate semi and final will be cool. I abandoned that idea because the tournament might be too long. I also don't think relegation will work. Losing one of the "home nations" (Wales, Ireland, England, or Scotland) won't go down well.
It’s never going to happen and I really don’t see why everyone is so up in arms in adding more teams to the 6 nations. We already have a new competition coming in 2026, leave the nations as it is.
What a load of shit that is
South Africa would win every single year. It's not gonna happen.
South Africa makes sense. Rugby like all sports is about entertainment and revenue generated. South Africa is a top team in close time zones for TV broadcasts. But 7 or 8 teams would cause issues with an already busy calendar. Only way it would work would be for Italy or whomever is the weaker team join the 6 Nations B, and have the main 6 nations with South Africa. Obviously that would be a setback and difficult to accept, especially as Italy improves recently and might get ahead of Wales. Imagine Wales replaced by South Africa in 6 nations?
As a association football fan, it seems baffling to me that in rugby there's a closed six nation competition without any qualifiers. Imagine if in football England, Spain, Germany, France, Italy, maybe Portugal held their own closed tournament and everybody else had to play in their own little pond regardless of the sporting level of the other nations.
Likewise a football fan, and I can’t think of any other sports where internationally it’s a closed shop if so few participants
Nicely constructed . Boks in the Six Nations? Fine, just hand them the Championship and make the runner up trophy really special!
Haha it’s a good point unless you’re Irish ☘️ they might have other ideas
They all will and sometimes one of six might snatch a win, but reality is that is a rarity!@@pioneeringmedia
They lost their last game to Ireland, France beat them but were cheated by the ref with that penalty and England were leading them near the end and should have held on for the win. No guarantee at all SA would win the 6N
@zworm2 Snatch a win...last year the Bokkes lost twice to Ireland, once to France and NZ, struggled against a pretty weak England, couldn't score in 60 minutes against 14 NZ men but yeah let's pretend they are unbeatable.
@porcupineinapettingzoo SA certainly rode their luck in the WC. Lost to Ireland, lost to France until the NZ ref cheated France with that penalty decision (France having trashed NZ earlier in the tournament obviously New Zealanders were happier to see France lose), should have been beaten by England and they received some very dubious penalty decisions from the scrums in that game, and then relied on a missed penalty by 14 men NZ in the final. They were certainly most fortunate. However to their credit they were involved in 2 of the most exciting entertaining rugby matches ever with their games against Ireland and France, but realistically they lost both of them.
How is the sport going to grow in its current format?
This tier system is sporting snobbery
i mean what would you propose ?
if you suggested a relegation playoff not only would the Six Nations team win over 90% of the games assuming say Italy lost to Georgia
all that will do is ensure Georgia get the absolute shite kicked out of them in the following 6 Nations and assuming they could once again beat Italy in the relegation playoff same shit will happen next year
@@kurtpunchesthings2411 That might happen a few times, but not forever. I see it with the Netherlands in the REC. They got promoted to the rec 4 years ago and got hammered. 70 points by Georgia, 30 by Portugal and Romania and 40 by Spain. This February, they nearly beat Spain if only the last minute penalty had gone over. They lost to Georgia by 20 points in Tblisi. Next year, they should be on par with Romania and Spain, and give Portugal and Georgia a real run for their money.
tbf taking the amount of time France needed to win a 5 Nations as an example for why Italy did not win anything yet is not convincing imo since that between 1910 - 1954, 2 World Wars and a ban during the 30's from the 5 Nations happened for the French team. Something that the italian team thanksfully did not faced lol.
Not counting those events and only counting the 5 Nations being played during that period, it "only" took France 25 years to win their first title.
Yet I think ditching the Italians in Rugby Europe would be a really bad move, it would kill the development of the sport in their country and they would be just "another Georgia" in the "Six Nations B".
As for adding more european teams, I'm totally for that. Because of money though, I'm afraid Georgia, Romania, Spain and/or Portugal gets ignored for a while.
I'm assuming by your rationale that given italy's 25th year is next, they will be 6 nations champions in 2025? lol - just jokes, I get the point about France completely as also we have to take into account the time of life we are now living in compared to all those years ago, and the fact its now a professional sport. Thanks for taking the time to comment and engage, I appreciate it
@@pioneeringmedia ahah I would love for that to be the case for them but of course I don't think it will happen. Funny enough, I said all that but since the 6N title is harder to win now than during the 5 Nations era (because of the shared victories), it will certainly take just as long or longer for the italians to win their first title in the professional era imo.
I hope I'm proven wrong for this though just like for "adding more european teams" part in my previous message lol.
Thx for making this video ! 👍
@@Metal0maniac98 you’re welcome. 👍
It also meant way less wooden spoon for France. And the fact that the title was shared meant France had more possibilities to win, Italy for example cannot hope to win by arriving third and tie with other two
@@NoName-hg6cc Yeah just the fact France won 4 tournaments in a row (a record) in the 50's with 3 of those title wins being shared shows how ''easy'' it was to win it. There is even a tournament in the 70's where the 5 nations won that year.
Ngl though I would love for that rule to comeback, it wouldn't happen often because of the bonus points stuff now but at least the team chasing the grand slam wouldn't lose everything if it was defeated close to the end of the tournament (ex: France in 2020, Ireland in 2007, England & Wales in 2015...etc).
I like the idea of relegation and promotion of the top and bottom teams. It would be nice to see a home and away 2 game playoff series between these two nations. Winner goes to the higher division. If the sixth best European Nation is better than the seventh, they would stay top tier. Adding a seventh nation doesn’t work for me.
Never given the backing they were promised. Speaks volumes. Lots of flat track bullies .
I agree
There should be a relegation and promotion thing at the six nations
Same with the rugby championship in the southern hemisphere
Some people however appear to be close minded about this and cant see how this will grow the game .
why do you think that is? history has shown in other sports that this works. I'm working on a bit of content atm which focus's on the American Soccer League (The MLS) that also has no relegation or promotion.
Apologies to anyone if they have already suggested this. I think it should be a 12 nation tournament. 2 tiers of 6 teams with promotion and relegation. The 2nd tier should be subsidised by the 1st. If the six nations had worked that way since inception then France, Scotland, Italy and Wales would all have played 2nd tier rugby at some point, and I think that would have a good thing. Not for those nations of course, but for the game as a whole.
It’s a great comment and has been mentioned. Mainly the issue seems that if the ‘cosy club’ nations spend time away from the top tournament, they’d struggle financially. My argument would be to offer parachute payments similar to the EPL and championship in English football
@@pioneeringmedia 100% agree. And of course the reverse would be true as well. The likes of Portugal, Georgia, Spain and Romania would benefit enormously from playing top tier six nations, even if only occasionally.
@@eamontdmas completely with you. Thanks for engaging in the comments. I really appreciate it
i onñly watch the rugby championship with south africa, new zealand, australia, and argentina, hopefully they expand to japan and fiji
It looks like maybe that will happen in 2026
Ireland for the win
They look good
Great video. The solution isn't 7 Nations, but expanding to 8 Nations with 2 pools of 4 with a SuperBowl style Grand Final. Follow the Rugby Europe Championship (6 Nations B) which now has 8 Nations with 2 pools of 4.
Also you are incorrect about the new World League starting in 2026 including tier 2 as the tier 2 sides will be shut out from being promoted to the top league until 2030 at the earliest.
That’s interesting because my research indicated that four teams will take part from Europe other than the six nation sides. Thanks for the update 👍
Georgia beat Italy and Wales a year ago. They are ready to join an expanded 8 Nations, as are Spain (who should have been at the last World Cup but were disqualified for fielding an ineligible player) and Portugal, who beat Fiji at the World Cup after Fiji had beaten Australia. Massive potential for bigger TV markets in mainland Europe for rugby, but the cosy club don't want to open up.
Your last point, I’d gathered this from researching. It’s nice for them at the moment isn’t it
@@pioneeringmedia It will be the 6 Nations playing against the 4 Southern Hemisphere Rugby Championship sides plus 2 other Southern Hemisphere tier 2 sides, likely Fiji and Japan. All other tier 2 sides with play in a 2nd division against each other with a possible promotion-relegation playoff in 2030, but knowing World Rugby and the tier 1 unions, I wouldn't be surprised if they prevent that also. World Rugby is even worse than FIFA in many ways, as for all of FIFA corruption, at least every nation is treated equally and has the chance to take part. You should do a video on the crazy World Rugby voting system, where the tier 1 sides have all the votes and only a few tier 2 sides have some token votes, which means tier 2 can never get promoted to the top table.
I’d rather see the rugby championship in the south add Japan and/or Fiji. 6 seems like a good number for a tournament, they would get smacked by NZ and SA but it would at least strengthen the game
Should just have a European championship or adjust to a 8-10 team tournament can’t have any teams relegated
I'd prefer two or three four nations with home and away fixtures and relegation.
I like the idea of a 5 nations in div 1, with 5 also in div 2.
any reason you would go even numbers so we get equal fixtures each weekend?
Interesting idea to add a 7th, but then we are back to one club missing a week again & Georgia (most probably them) would get the same treatment Italy currently enjoy.
I might add Italy also suffer from poor officiating decisions.
Also, a second 'weak' team would dilute the competition too much, IMO.
Just look at the WC, and the gulf in class between teams makes a lot of matches practically pointless.
I favour a relegation myself but I think the status quo will prevail.
Isn't there a point system that would serve as a relegation system only if a second tier nation was to rise above a first tier nation regarding those points?
I didn’t see that when researching to build this content. Maybe you’re right though, hopefully someone can clarify
@@pioneeringmedia A friend told me that, but I can't find anything about it. Maybe he was mistaking.
I don't think every tournament in the world has to be a made the most efficient for any particular purpose. It can just be a celebration of rugby for those teams involved. The Rugby Championship exists for the same reason, as a regional competition for the biggest sides.
Just expand to 8 teams like the REC and copy their format. That would keep the original members safe from relegation for a few years and give the REC countries something to aspire to. Investment will come when they know getting into the top comp is achievable.
Otherwise, bin the the 6N and RC and have proper continental and world cups with qualification, like in football. Sure, the original 6N will still be the strongest for a while, but expect the top 5 or 6 nations in the REC to catch up. Portugal, Spain, the Netherlands and Belgium have excellent development systems in place. Spain is in the U20 WC and the Dutch are in the Trophy. Teams to watch.
Great comment and I tend to agree with you 👍
The 6n is full up. Italy win very few games but they are a good bit better than Georgia who are the next best team in Europe outside of the 6n but they would take an even worse hammering. Benetton and the Italy U20s are also going very well so there is hope for them. But competition is tough. SA might lobby to get in but I don’t think it would work. Geography is important in the 6n and SA I’d just too far. They are better off sticking with NZ and Aus internationally.
I dunno if you made te point in the video, but romania seem so good BEACUSE they only play other tier 2 nations like germany and poland. If Italy was in Romania's position they wouldn't lose a single game.
yeah that point was highlighted, mainly with Georgia but same applies of course.. appreciate your comment
@@pioneeringmedia 👍
Leave the Six Nations or incorporate it into the European Championship. What I think is the best thing that rugby Europe and world rugby can do is start and promote a European Cup. Modelled after the world cup. Once every 4 years all the best national teams in Europe play In a tournament. I think that would develop rugby in a lot of countries.
Interesting idea. I have to agree 👍
Missing the point. The 6N should become 8N with the addition of two sides from the Rugby Europe Championship. Currently these would be Georgia and Portugal. Two pools , top and bottom 2 in each pool go into semis and finals. Relegation and promotion based on two seasons aggregated. There are several Divisions in REC, so one day Kosovo or Latvia could be playing at Twickenham. Why not ?
100% agree with you - although many in the comments don’t 🤷♂️
Cyprus are actually the side with the most international wins in a row
But aren’t recognised by the IRB
Italy are definately getting better, Romania were brilliant in the 80s but have gone downhill hugely. Georgia are great at home but ugly to watch away. Portugal really impressed me at the WC.
Italy has the most prospects for fan growth and is easy to get to from the other nations. Flying to Georgia is much harder work and more expensive.
I was at Italy vs England 2024 and I’ll tell you 35k of the people their were England Fans
That’s a lot of travelling fans. Crazy actually
Make it 8 teams. Bring in Romania and Georgia. 2x groups of 4. Top 2 go into semi-finals. Easy. Bottom teams in each group do a play-off. Loser plays against winner of Europe Championships for tier 2/3 teams for promotion / relegation. Much more competitive.
This seems to be the majority thought process
Forget seven nations, make it eight played to the same structure as the second tier. Time to actually give the game to the world, after over 100 years it's a disgrace that the game is still ringfenced around a handful of countries.
great comment
There Poor Italy Strength Cant beat the Big Guys
Add New Zealand to the Six Nations, you cowards! On a serious note. I think relegation of the sixth place team to the lower league and promotion of that year's winner, or even having a playoff game between the two teams would be the best option. I'd also like to see a guaranteed match between the winners of the RC and Six Nations to take place each year. This game could be taken to markets where rugby is emerging as a show piece.
That’s an interesting point about the winners playing each other. I guess it would be a walkover each year but create a good sporting spectacle
There is no way that will work with regards to Traveling
@@MrSiciro It was a joke. Or if you mean the guaranteed game between north and south, it can happen in the November test window. Teams are moving between the hemispheres at the time anyway. Having a game in, say, New York wouldn't be difficult to arrange.
You know that italys record is down to playing tier one nations on a regular basis, and Georgia Romania are down to playing tier 2 nations, its a poorly loaded argument
this was eluded to in the video
Seven nations would never work, then they'd want eight nations and then nine, my suggestion would be to have a 16 team competition every 12 month's and scrap the northern and southern hemisphere competition's and indeed the summer and autumn tour's, and get rid of the lion's tour as well. Some people probably won't agree with this idea but it would work, a world cup every year played over 2 month's in either the summer or autumn, all club competitions can be played with full strength teams during the other 10 month's and no club or region will be without international players .
Mate the Springboks are 4 time world champions... not 2... Enjoy thumping the other "tier 1" teams!
On a positive note, The video style, format, editing is awesome! Just get the facts right from the start and i will subscribe. Will keep an eye on this channel as there is great potential.
Thanks for the info, and yes should have stated 'European' tier one teams.
@@pioneeringmedia You have my subscription. Now make us proud!
@@johnkingswanepoel really appreciate you - thank you
long story short nothing changes til we get a new sponsor and then it is f1 or footbal all over
Have Guinness just signed a new extension?
yeah, italy have got consistantly better. promotion/relegatio n will happen eventually but the rugby europe nations arnt good enough yet
I think this is the argument though, if it’s taken Italy over two decades just to get some kind of consistency, how will the likes of Georgia, Portugal etc get better without having the chance to compete against the best every year?
Ireland was beaten AT HOME 37-29 in the '90s...
Btw, if Wales or Scotland finish last does it means they are going to be relegated? Or it goes only for Italy?
That would be a ludicrous scenario lol. Can you imagine the uproar. 🤷♂️
@@pioneeringmedia Then you know why there is no relegation.
Can you imagine the scandal with the scenario "relegation, but only if Italy's last"?
@@NoName-hg6cc this was never the narrative in the content, merely mentioned italys record and created an argument for improving should they be given more chance of competing against sides closer to their level of ability. The term ‘Cosy Club’ is probably referencing to your case
@@pioneeringmediaBut if Wales, hypothetically, is beaten by Italy, shouldn't be them facing someone close their level of ability? Wouldn't that mean Italy is AT THE LEVEL?
Yes and they’ve proved to be a match, if not more this year - they’ve been extremely competitive. Which ultimately means their growth pathway is working. I would still make a case for the relegation/promotion system which possibly would then give other nations a chance to experience top flight international rugby.
Stay 6 nations, and invite South Africa with a promotion relegation basis with teams in Europe
Except Ireland smashed Italy today. Just saying 🤷♂️
Saw that. Crazy
Smashed !
U20s was a more thrilling match... Italy looking good for the future.
@@paureh9573yup, the kids are alright
There is already too much pressure on players and teams both at club and international level. The 6 Nations needs a 7th team like we need a hole in our heads. What we do need is to go back to 5 Nations as Italy couldn't win a raffle if there was only 1 prize and 1 ticket. Best scenario, keep it at 6, replace them with Georgia (who beat Italy 28-19 last time around) and give them 23 years in the 6 Nations and some investment in the Georgian game to see if they can do what Italy abjectly failed to do....become a Tier 1 nation.
Interesting take - and some valid points
TV viewership. Germany or Spain with huge populations are more likely to get invited as 7th team. Portugals population is too small.
It’s a good point and if wasn’t for the fact I thought the video was too long anyway, it was something I wanted to touch on
Number of wins isn't a great metric, it depends who you're playing.
Don't see Rugby and Tik Tok fitting well. Most of their users can't count to 15.
I did elude to that in the video. Hence why Romania would be high in the ‘win percentage’ table. And yes I agree, TikTok is not a platform I associate myself with lol
Ireland back to back champions this year !
Can’t argue against that. They look so strong
It’ll be Georgia because they’re never allowed to play the bigger sides so they just win all the time against crap sides - or it could be Romania if they’ve been playing longer etc etc...
agree
Another side to this debate is that the Rugby Europe Championship is at risk of being completely dominated by Georgia and Portugal, who consistently make the final. Other teams are growing, but Georgia and Portugal have hit their ceiling imo. The best 4 teams of the tournament played each other this weekend and Georgia beat Spain 38-3 and Portugal beat Romania 49-24. All 4 are in the semi finals but you can make and educated guess that last year's finalists will be the same this year, and probably next year. Georgia and Portugal need another competition where they can grow.
@@joelmonteiro1419 exactly it should be an 8 Nations in the near future
No 7 Nations (players already play too many games, rugby is physically much harder than basket or football...) or S.A. in the tournament, this is not a world cup, it is a European tournament, but yes, a 100% yes to a promotion/relegation. Wooden spoon goes done and best team from other tournament comes up every year, this would spice things up and allow other team to play the tournament once in a while.
Italy only has so few wins because they hardly ever play tier 2 nations. They would win 99% of games against lower ranked teams
That’s part of the discussion. Is the lack of games against opposition close to their level hampering or aiding their development? What do you think?
@@pioneeringmedia I think they are in a terrible limbo at the momento where they wouldn’t really have much to gain from wins against lower ranked teams but struggle to beat their peers. They should probably organize more games against argentina, japan, tonga, even Australia or Fiji at the moment for the autumn and summer series tests rather than play the all blacks or boks again. Get some wins that way and just keep improving the youth levels. These guys play all over Europe in some amazing teams so we have the talent, it’s just a matter of getting rid of that pesky Italian trait of losing honourably… the losses need to hurt more
I wonder if the new 2026 world competition will help?
@@pioneeringmedia could be… squad depth is also such a major limiting factor in smaller unions… like you said in the video, it takes time to build a system so you probably going to see some fruits of the Italian system coming through in the next 10 years where they have 36 elite players that could probably be picked for most unions…
@@pioneeringmediayou are mistaken on whose involved. The four heavy weights of SH rugby are involved as well as the middle weights in Fiji and Japan. Fiji and Japan should probably join the RC as well, both got to qfs in the last two WCs and Fiji beat two times WC winners Australia at the WC last year. It's really the RC that hampers rugby growth.
Japan are a tier 1 nation...
TikTok lol. Why are they involved in rugby?
I was surprised lol
6 is fine. Just have a promotion / relegation system.
The Germans are throwing a lot of money at their Rugby team - maybe a look at that next?
That’s a good shout. I’ll look into it thanks
SA should not be included in the 6 nations championship it's a northern hemisphere competition you don't see any European team trying to join the southern tri nations championship. If WR want to mix things up they could try the relegation route and allow other northern hemisphere teams to compete for a place.
Yes - the video does elude to this and it seems a popular opinion with most.
I’ve been saying this for sometime now; why don’t we have a Eurocup style tournament in between the World Cup? (The same way that football/soccer does it).
I think it would be great for European rugby and should generate more interest.
It started as a tournament for the four countries of the British Isles. It should have stayed that way
Should be Georgia. They beat Romania every time.
replace italy with georgia, italy was a mistake, still 6 nations so u dont have to change the logos
Italy drew with France...
England won’t win this year. Ireland best team
Have to agree
Id start with the ab's.. come now bro even south african rugby knows they're the goats
Are you a kiwi ?
@@christianmccann9400 No springbok... born and raised in bloemfontein, south africa
A relegation/promotion will not help to evolve any rugby anywhere. France took 20 years to win their first 5N. Argentina 40 years solely to be invited on a major tournament.
Italy finally is seeying the result of 20 years of investments and development (see what they did vs Scotland).
Way to go more in a 7 N direction than promotion/relegation way
We did make the case for both and also eluded to the young Italians coming through. Looks like they might be about to have their best 6N yet
Italy has been competitive. Getting closer. Relegating them now would set them back. They’re so close. Give it a couple years. If they still are perpetual wooden spoons then relegate them.
Just be careful what you wish for. Romania or Georgia would get slaughtered by the Big 5 and it would be an even worse conundrum than Italy
The video wasn’t so much about Italy rather than the relegation / promotion structure change. It’s very likely wales could finish bottom in 2024. Italy were merely spoke about as they’ve been in that position so often. Great comment though and really appreciate your thoughts
@@pioneeringmediaright yes. Got you. Wasn’t saying it was about Italy that’s just what came out lol
Another thing to keep in mind if you introduce relegation is a team like wales or somebody else having an off year could very well be relegated. Can you imagine a Six Nations without any of the original 4 (or even without France)?
I know it’s very controversial because we’ve been so used to the format for such a long time. I’m actually on the fence and I tried to make a case for both points in the video. There’s been some really good suggestions within the comments as to how things could change if they were to.
@@pioneeringmediaI do think the video did a fantastic job of pointing out multiple viewpoints on this!
I’m a traditionalist and the pageantry and historicity of the five/six nations (yes I’m old) should be safeguarded IMO
However that’s just one man’s preference
@@contrarianpod there’s a big part of me that tends to agree with you. However I imagine there wouldn’t be any Georgians, Romanians or Portuguese that do !!
Here’s an idea, leave the 6 nations alone! Its the best rugby competition by a long way, its better than the World Cup which is mainly complete dross until the semi finals (even there awful last time due to that joke of a draw).
Do you think the new comp in 2026 will make a difference to world rugby?
six nations is not that entertaining there's ire vs fra and then the rest you fall asleep watching
Six nations is kinda dead for anyone who arent fanboys of the big nations
who's big in the 6 nations sa alone is 20 times bigger than the entire uk,france and italy and has more money than people think
I agree with leaving 6N alone. Don’t think we 🇿🇦 fit it. But as for rest. Seriously ? . 6 N is better than NZ v SA. Please. 😂😂😂😂
SA… 2 times WRC champions????
what's the articulation word for 'typo'? 😬 my bad
7 is dumb they should do keep it a even number