Honestly, the characters in IWWV seem like they actually loved Shakespeare. The characters in A Secret History seem like they only like Greek classics because they think it makes them better or more intellectual than everyone else.
I disagree. Henry lives and breathes the Greek classics--so much so that he gets angry when the idea of Dionysus gets challenged by Richard. The author, Tartt, is far more subtle than Rio with layering on the real world parallels between the book and the subject the characters are studying in the book. Even the title, A Secret History, is a reference to an actual Greek classic (not to mention the structure of the book, etc.). IWWV is taking quite a LOT from Secret History but is far less subtle with layering on the similarities with the Shakespeare works they reference (and far less clever). Tartt's works are masterpieces, and why she has won a Pulitzer. This book is derivative, albeit entertaining, and not nearly the masterpiece of A Secret History.
@@richnewman Thank you for sharing your perspective! Do you think the TSH characters genuinely enjoy the Classics for their merit, though, or is it just intellectual snobbery? Because the initial comment was about their reason for being involved in the classics, and I personally think that the reason why IWWV is better is because the characters seem to love Shakespeare on a level of personal interest. Genuinely appreciated the respectful disagreement, so thank you for sharing another view!
@@thepretentiouspoet Yes, they show a genuine interest in the Greek classics--I mean, they've devoted their entire education at college to it. Henry seems to live and breathe it. IWWV just seems like a knockoff book to me.
I'm a classics student and read if we were villains before the secret history, I was expecting to enjoy the secret history much more than iwwv considering my interests but it actually couldn't compare. The description of the Macbeth performance just completely enthralled me, I try to explain it to people to convince them to read it but I just can't explain how it made me feel.
English is not my mother language so I found it hard reading the book with so many Shakespeare's quotes but the plot is amazing and the tragic feeling that everything is collapsing hit me so hard. I still cannot understand why James becomes aggressive in Act 4 but I like this character. Also, I can really relate to Oliver as I basically see myself like he himself
@@Mel1211 I think when I read it for the first time I had a B2 level in english. Even though I didn't understand all the Shakespear's quotes I was able to follow the plot without any problems. :)
it took me so long to finish tsh but i ATE UP iwwv so quick. Oliver is so much more likeable than tsh richard and i think if u read the book from another characters POV oliver would still be just as much a note worthy character, unlike tsh richard.
I read both. Iwwv this evening, the secret history some weeks prior. I love both. First, I must thank Iwwv, because after The Secret History I thought I could never read another book. TSH grabbed me by every brain cell. Iwwv managed to create this woooohow again. I need to reread both, probably couldn't decide which one is "better". Simply bc they can't be compared imo. TSH is like an ancient greek tale, first page, boom, and it's all about the why in the following pages. Which makes it so fascinating. And different, especially compared to Iwwv. Which was thrilling, but the suspense was very different (greek vs Shakespeare). Almost like a "normal" book where everything is revealed at the end. But then we have the leaving the prison right away...sooooo... (And it makes sense that TSH Richard is so bland, as he lets "the other actors shine", like Oliver.) I can't decide. Really can't. And: I don't want to and don't need to. Both books enriched my brain and my reading horizon. ♡
That's a really interesting perspective I hadn't considered before, thank you so much for sharing! It makes a lot of sense that TSH would emulate the classics - and that that would completely go over my head! I hadn't read any classics when I read TSH (I have now, but only as lecture prep and only as English translations) but I'm incredibly familiar with and ADORE Shakespeare hehe. It's no wonder IWWV took my fancy more in that regard. Thank you so much for commenting this, it's a perspective that had never occurred to me, but I can now appreciate TSH a lot more for what it is ("empty canvas" heroes in the classics! Now Richard makes so much more sense!) and understand why others enjoy it too. Excellent addition!
Omg your review summarised my feelings about this book so well! I just finished it and the ending broke me ahah. I do agree that it's very similar to the secret history without the second slow part! Will definetly be rereading it .
yes yes, agree with everything ♥ I finished If We Were Villains TODAY and ran to youtube because i needed more people agreeing with me about how GOOD it is and how i liked it so much more than The Secret History and yes yes YESS Thank you! excellent review !
I really agree with you. I read both, both pretty close to each other, and I had so much more fun reading all of the play descriptions and them quoting Shakespeare, and ESPECIALLY the Halloween play description. I felt like with their roles and the parallels to the plot and the casting was like a fascinating puzzle to piece out full of metaphor and symbolism! I also was far more invested in the relationships in if we were villains than the Secret History. I completely agree with you, I liked If We Were Villains better. (I’ve read it twice now haha!)
There's just so much more love in IWWV! Love between the characters, towards their subject, and broadly it just feels like a more passionate, enthused story. So glad you enjoyed it!
I loved TSH for Donna Tartt's writing style, her metaphores and well-placed adjectives were the selling point for me. I'm thinking about going to IWWV but every time I open up that book at a random page in the bookstore and start a paragraph, it just M. L. Rio's writing just seems childish and fades in comparison to Tartt's prose. Should I still give it a go?
I think it really depends on what type of reader you are. Undoubtedly, Tartt’s writing style is incomparably superior to Rio’s. I would say the writing style is one of IWWV biggest flaws. It is quite simple but I wouldn’t go as far as saying ‘childish’. Plot and character wise I think it’s a very good book (it has his flaws, but so does TSH). As I said, It depends on what you’re looking for. I enjoyed both TSH and IWWV for different reasons: Tartt for the writing style and IWWV for characters and plot.
The Secret History is good, but so convoluted. IWWV is much more heartfelt and a much easier read to top it all off. I'm sure there's a lot of TSH that I didn't understand because I don't know a lot about greek epics, but I also don't know a lot about Shakespeare and I found IWWV a lot more accessible. I would honestly recommend it to anyone. TSH, on the other hand, is a lot more pretentious and it takes a certain type of person to enjoy it. IDK! I enjoyed reading both of them and nobody can hold a candle to Donna Tartt's ability to conjure up imagery. I loved hearing you talk about it!!
Thank you, I'm so glad you enjoyed the video! I very much agree - there's an appealing warmth to IWWV that TSH doesn't have. Maybe it's because all the characters actually like each other? And yes, Donna Tartt is still a very talented writer, and that shines through regardless. Glad you could enjoy both books!
@@charo5320 Greek mythology yes, you don't need to know, but having a fairly good understanding of the classics is definitely needed to understand TSH!
I love this book so much it makes me so happy hearing someone else geek out about it!! I've just chosen it as my modern lit comparison to The Great Gatsby and its actually shocked me how many connections I've found.
Sorry for the very late reply, but oh my god that sounds like a fascinating comparison to make! Would love to hear more about it if you're willing to share!
Just my personal opinion with a pinch of insult to the If We Were Villians LOL... If We Were Villains is so bad but somehow it is engaging enough for me to not give up on it halfway. I found the main characters to be very 2D simplistic. The main male characters (Oliver and James esp) talks and acts like females so I assume a female wrote the book because the author doesn't seem to know how male interact with one another. I found the drama scene in the book very confusing, by that I meant I cannot virtualize how it actually is acting out so I am not impressed. Also, Richard's change is very drastic and seems to come from nowhere which annoys me because it is just childish and lazy writing from my point of view. I think A Secret History is way better, although the quality dropped a bit in the end it was very well written and engaging with much more complicated characters. I personally loves Donna Tatt's books. i am not a native speaker but i found her book so easy to read and very engaging
completely agree! I feel like the characters were so much better layered and felt more human, and having a narrator you could actually care about was allowed me to get into the book so much more! I do think you’re very right about the female characters which is a shame :( Wren especially could have given an interesting perspective on things which was maybe a missed opportunity. But yes better characters, better paced and no queer baiting🫶🫶
I can’t lie, I am in genuine disbelief anyone in their right mind can prefer If We Were Villains to The Secret History. It is the knock off of all knock offs.
I read iwwv first. And its in my opiniok a more intimate book, its a tragic story of the live of an old friend . The characters were so vivid and it makes all sense… then the ending makes us sad and furious. As if u found out an old friend u lost contact with ruined their life
it's so not a knockoff tho??? like that's such a rude thing to say. there are similarities, but both are quite unique in their own aspects. i loved them both, although i preferred the prose of TSH, i think the characters were better written in IWWV. They felt a lot more intimate and at the end I was way more connected to IWWV. Both books were really good, but there's a few things that i think make IWWV more memorable.
thank youu ive been looking for someone saying this. so much of the plot of iwwv feels like it had no real reason for things to happen unless you look at the secret history and realise the author was just meeting the quota of a "dark academia" novel. especially when you look at richard (iwwv) vs bunny. richard's sudden shift into being abusive is completely without motivation. its obvious hes meant to be the bunny character but the author didnt think it mattered to create a scenario where it would be believable that his friends wanted him dead. i also simply dont agree with anyone saying the characters were more "heartfelt" in iwwv. they all had the personality of cardboard. most of the women were just sidelined the entire time, with the exception of meredith - whose only character trait was being hot. it was all style and no substance and the style was pretty damn lacklustre too.
I was a Shakespeare student and actually enjoyed reading IWWV more than The Secret History but does it not strike anyone as thinly veiled plagiarism?? Like…there are SO many similarities to A Secret History that it made me feel uncomfortable. It just reads like a more accessible version of the same story with slight differences in order to make it publishable….almost something akin to fan fiction. I couldn’t enjoy it for that reason alone. Just my opinion.
That's fair enough! For me, I discount it as plagarism on the basis that I.W. Gregorio openly accepts the comparisons and I believe has talked about the influence TSH has on the book. However, I can understand why it would be off-putting!
I liked the book. Big fan of Donna Tartt per se, and I do think the text is an homage - but not too overtly to think it feels totally inauthentic etc. However....(spoiler alert stop reading now if you have not finished) Oliver's conviction to his criminal conviction...? Come on.....would you? No. I just do not buy it in the literal, and that is a problem. Perhaps, someone on a higher artistic, philosophical level, with some elevated justification might commit in this way, but really, a prison cell, prisoners, criminal record....damn : I do not think I would do that for my own child - let alone romantic love.....anyway. I suppose it could remind us of a Tale of Two Cities - the idea of self sacrifice.....The protagonist in TSH imitates Nick in The Great Gatsby - he's dull to replicate the middle class reader, and the fact he has to be dull to be obsessed with the characters as he is. I would not recommend it above TSH. I think it's a quicker and easier read - but really TSH is a greater work in many ways. I would also give it a high rating, but really TSH is, overall, the intertextual origin that this text pays homage to, and is really, better written - although really TSH is a merger of Crime and Punishment, The Great Gatsby, and a host of classical literary reference. Overall, IWWV is a very good read, but I would say TSH has the edge as the original force behind it, and just I think a greater gravitas and sense of impact.
Late response I know, but I really appreciate what you're saying! TSH owes a lot to its origins, and it is perhaps the more complex/literary book... but IWWV will always be my favourite!
I love how much you enjoyed the book because I have been sitting on reading this book for about two years. I got into dark academia at the same time you did but I didn’t bother reading it because I was busy with uni. I feel like these as you had with the C history is what I kind of had with the book as well. I thought that it was unnecessarily misogynistic and I thought that Richard was so boring so I think I might enjoy this book. Thank you for encouraging me to read it!
I love this video because English is not my first language but even with your accent, I can still understand it! to be honest, I don't really like the competition between tsh and iwwv, i mean reading is fun because even with the same base (dark academia, students, a murder) you can have different stories, and different characters and different feelings!! and its a good thing!! yes, I tend to think that tsh is better than iwwv on a writing point of view, but does that mean I don't like iwwv? no, I adore this book!! in fact, I liked iwwv characters much more than tsh, even if it is one of the best books I've read, and even when donna tartt is one of my favorite authors ! so in the end I think its just two amazing books that should not be put in competition :) plus I think its a little exaggerated to say that M.L Rio has entirely copy tsh just because the atmosphere is the same ^^'
i read if we were villains first not knowing anything about it i didnt even read the plot and im so glad i just picked it from the bookstore because i read someone comparing it with the secret history on its cover. when i finished it i loved it so much that i thought oh man i want more stuff like this and so i started the secret history. im on page 100 or so and im so utterly disappointed. people saying its "dark academia"but i dont see any love for literature and studying like m l rio did with her characters, making them talk about their love for great poets like shakespeare. and that makes you relate to the characters and enjoy the journey more. also theres so much suspense on iwwv not knowing who did the murder when in secret history you can kind of figure out everything that will happen. idk if im gonna finish it but probably will hoping my opinion will change and understand what the fuse is all about :// (ps i dont like how the donna tartt fans act like the secret history is some kind of a bible when it clearly romantices situations it shouldnt and iwwv is mlrios first and only book and is much more "respectful" and capturing the non-toxic side of the "dark academia" aesthetic-fandom perfectly)
Yeah, I definitely think that the order to read them in is TSH first, then IWWV! And I very much agree with you - the first hundred pages or so of TSH are very slow as it is, you have to get to the murder plot for it to start being properly engrossing, and yes, it's very hard to enjoy the character's passions for the Classics considering they are all just privileged students. I would say it's one of those books that it's worth reading if only to say that you read it, but if you've enjoyed IWWV, then you've already gotten what I consider to be the best parts of TSH. Hope you feel it's worthwhile if you do read the rest of it, or that you move on to something you enjoy far more!
@@thepretentiouspoet oh well I found the plot very predictable and I felt like the characters were not fully developed, like when did Richard become the bad guy ? I wished we had more insight on the relationships they had with one another before the tragedy (i seriously hoped we would get more informations on the crew but that did not happen, perhaps the book needed more pages to make the characters more likeable and less forgettable, for example Wren) Add to that the overuse of Shakespeare's quotes, which can get tiring quickly (especially for non natives) And the last point is probably just pure incomprehension on some details like I didn't get why at some point in the book the author brought up the fact that Oliver's sister had an eating disorder. I also pity the character of Meredith for being objectified. Anyway, that's how I felt ! I get why some people would love it, it's fast paced, it keeps you hooked because you want to know how it ends and the writing style is lovely but it just didn't do it for me !
@@averysmallcaptain oliver’s sister having the eating disorder is what made him go on a scholarship basically and bc of that he started cleaning around the place. that’s how he found all the evidence and started to put the piece together about what happened. he also was very anxious w the evidence he accidentally got that he hid them therefore making it easier for law to arrest him apart from confession by having proof so i think it wasn’t really incomprehensible. but i agree about richard w u. i was waiting to get some insights on him and how he was before fourth year. i feel like his character just came n died. a little more personal stories between him and them would be better before his dead
It's been a little while since I've read it, but from what I remember, there's implied sexual content (heavy kissing and then waking up beside someone) but nothing more explicit than that. In terms of violence, there's roughly 2-3 scenes featuring blood and minor injuries, and one scene towards the end where there's more graphic violence described (the death of the classmate, which is definitely graphic but I'd say like a 5 on a scale of 1-10). Hope that's helpful, I'm sure someone will have a more definitive breakdown elsewhere, it's just been a while since I read it! Check StoryGraph - reviewers can list content warnings as graphic, moderate or minor, so that might be of use to you!
I am a very new reader, I wanted to ask that is this book Lgbt? And is it ok for a 16-17 old teen to read this? As,I am new in the world of books.. So,kindly help me out with this..
This book does feature three MLM characters but it is not focused on LGBTQ+ topics, so up to you whether you consider that LGBTQ+, really! I would say that it's appropriate for a 16-17 year old (I read it for the first time when I was 18), but as it contains violence, sexually suggestive content, and is all-round more adult, it's up to you to decide whether that's something you want to read.
@@SaumyaGupta778 I really liked One Of Us Is Lying by Karen M. McManus, which is a YA closed-room murder mystery - definitely for a younger audience than IWWV!
@@ipshitajee as I mentioned in reply to a similar comment, there are a few instances of violence, and there is some "fade-to-black" sexual content, but it would be worth looking into it yourself using a website like StoryGraph or Goodreads to see content warnings and reviews about it! It's been a while since I read the book and I can't remember well enough to advise you.
the sheer audacity of people saying iwwv is better than the secret history. the atrocity of it all. smh it's alRight to like one over another but damn THE FREAKING AUDACITY IS PREPOSTEROUS.
I loved If We Were Villains, and I’m having a hard time with A Secret History. I’m just a character person and cannot stand a single character in The Secret History. Oh
Honestly, the characters in IWWV seem like they actually loved Shakespeare. The characters in A Secret History seem like they only like Greek classics because they think it makes them better or more intellectual than everyone else.
Absolutely agree with this! Passionate people are infinitely more interesting than elitist ones
I disagree. Henry lives and breathes the Greek classics--so much so that he gets angry when the idea of Dionysus gets challenged by Richard. The author, Tartt, is far more subtle than Rio with layering on the real world parallels between the book and the subject the characters are studying in the book. Even the title, A Secret History, is a reference to an actual Greek classic (not to mention the structure of the book, etc.). IWWV is taking quite a LOT from Secret History but is far less subtle with layering on the similarities with the Shakespeare works they reference (and far less clever). Tartt's works are masterpieces, and why she has won a Pulitzer. This book is derivative, albeit entertaining, and not nearly the masterpiece of A Secret History.
@@richnewman Thank you for sharing your perspective! Do you think the TSH characters genuinely enjoy the Classics for their merit, though, or is it just intellectual snobbery? Because the initial comment was about their reason for being involved in the classics, and I personally think that the reason why IWWV is better is because the characters seem to love Shakespeare on a level of personal interest. Genuinely appreciated the respectful disagreement, so thank you for sharing another view!
@@thepretentiouspoet Yes, they show a genuine interest in the Greek classics--I mean, they've devoted their entire education at college to it. Henry seems to live and breathe it. IWWV just seems like a knockoff book to me.
@@richnewman Fair enough, thank you for sharing!
I'm a classics student and read if we were villains before the secret history, I was expecting to enjoy the secret history much more than iwwv considering my interests but it actually couldn't compare. The description of the Macbeth performance just completely enthralled me, I try to explain it to people to convince them to read it but I just can't explain how it made me feel.
As a real theatre nerd, the Macbeth performance made me go absolutely bonkers - so so good!
English is not my mother language so I found it hard reading the book with so many Shakespeare's quotes but the plot is amazing and the tragic feeling that everything is collapsing hit me so hard. I still cannot understand why James becomes aggressive in Act 4 but I like this character. Also, I can really relate to Oliver as I basically see myself like he himself
What is the level english for this book, for you? please
(A2, B1, C1?)
Sorry if I don't say right, I speak french 😅
@@Mel1211 I think when I read it for the first time I had a B2 level in english. Even though I didn't understand all the Shakespear's quotes I was able to follow the plot without any problems. :)
@@xxeczxx9034
Thank you ;)
it took me so long to finish tsh but i ATE UP iwwv so quick. Oliver is so much more likeable than tsh richard and i think if u read the book from another characters POV oliver would still be just as much a note worthy character, unlike tsh richard.
Absolutely, Richard in TSH doesn't feel nearly as integral to the story being told as Oliver feels to IWWV!
Well, Richard isn't supposed to be a likeable character. None of them are.
That's because Oliver is more than nice, he's good
I read both. Iwwv this evening, the secret history some weeks prior.
I love both.
First, I must thank Iwwv, because after The Secret History I thought I could never read another book. TSH grabbed me by every brain cell. Iwwv managed to create this woooohow again.
I need to reread both, probably couldn't decide which one is "better". Simply bc they can't be compared imo. TSH is like an ancient greek tale, first page, boom, and it's all about the why in the following pages. Which makes it so fascinating. And different, especially compared to Iwwv. Which was thrilling, but the suspense was very different (greek vs Shakespeare). Almost like a "normal" book where everything is revealed at the end. But then we have the leaving the prison right away...sooooo...
(And it makes sense that TSH Richard is so bland, as he lets "the other actors shine", like Oliver.)
I can't decide. Really can't. And: I don't want to and don't need to.
Both books enriched my brain and my reading horizon. ♡
That's a really interesting perspective I hadn't considered before, thank you so much for sharing! It makes a lot of sense that TSH would emulate the classics - and that that would completely go over my head! I hadn't read any classics when I read TSH (I have now, but only as lecture prep and only as English translations) but I'm incredibly familiar with and ADORE Shakespeare hehe. It's no wonder IWWV took my fancy more in that regard. Thank you so much for commenting this, it's a perspective that had never occurred to me, but I can now appreciate TSH a lot more for what it is ("empty canvas" heroes in the classics! Now Richard makes so much more sense!) and understand why others enjoy it too. Excellent addition!
@@thepretentiouspoet If i remember correctly, my information came from Donna Tartts 1992 Amsterdam Interview, here on UA-cam :)
Easily one of my favorite books
Same, it's up there!
Omg your review summarised my feelings about this book so well! I just finished it and the ending broke me ahah. I do agree that it's very similar to the secret history without the second slow part! Will definetly be rereading it .
So glad you could relate! Yes, I'm already itching to re-read it, every time I think about it I just end up wanting to fully immerse myself again lol
yes yes, agree with everything ♥
I finished If We Were Villains TODAY and ran to youtube because i needed more people agreeing with me about how GOOD it is and how i liked it so much more than The Secret History and yes yes YESS
Thank you! excellent review !
Thank you so much! Yesss, benefit of booktube is always having someone else to enthuse over specific stories with
I really agree with you. I read both, both pretty close to each other, and I had so much more fun reading all of the play descriptions and them quoting Shakespeare, and ESPECIALLY the Halloween play description. I felt like with their roles and the parallels to the plot and the casting was like a fascinating puzzle to piece out full of metaphor and symbolism! I also was far more invested in the relationships in if we were villains than the Secret History. I completely agree with you, I liked If We Were Villains better. (I’ve read it twice now haha!)
There's just so much more love in IWWV! Love between the characters, towards their subject, and broadly it just feels like a more passionate, enthused story. So glad you enjoyed it!
I fell in love with the description of Macbeth play, it was so magical I can’t even explain it
I loved TSH for Donna Tartt's writing style, her metaphores and well-placed adjectives were the selling point for me.
I'm thinking about going to IWWV but every time I open up that book at a random page in the bookstore and start a paragraph, it just M. L. Rio's writing just seems childish and fades in comparison to Tartt's prose. Should I still give it a go?
I think it really depends on what type of reader you are. Undoubtedly, Tartt’s writing style is incomparably superior to Rio’s. I would say the writing style is one of IWWV biggest flaws. It is quite simple but I wouldn’t go as far as saying ‘childish’. Plot and character wise I think it’s a very good book (it has his flaws, but so does TSH). As I said, It depends on what you’re looking for. I enjoyed both TSH and IWWV for different reasons: Tartt for the writing style and IWWV for characters and plot.
The Secret History is good, but so convoluted. IWWV is much more heartfelt and a much easier read to top it all off. I'm sure there's a lot of TSH that I didn't understand because I don't know a lot about greek epics, but I also don't know a lot about Shakespeare and I found IWWV a lot more accessible. I would honestly recommend it to anyone. TSH, on the other hand, is a lot more pretentious and it takes a certain type of person to enjoy it. IDK! I enjoyed reading both of them and nobody can hold a candle to Donna Tartt's ability to conjure up imagery. I loved hearing you talk about it!!
Thank you, I'm so glad you enjoyed the video! I very much agree - there's an appealing warmth to IWWV that TSH doesn't have. Maybe it's because all the characters actually like each other? And yes, Donna Tartt is still a very talented writer, and that shines through regardless. Glad you could enjoy both books!
you don't need to know about greek mythology to understand the book, its very easy to read
@@charo5320 Greek mythology yes, you don't need to know, but having a fairly good understanding of the classics is definitely needed to understand TSH!
I love this book so much it makes me so happy hearing someone else geek out about it!! I've just chosen it as my modern lit comparison to The Great Gatsby and its actually shocked me how many connections I've found.
Sorry for the very late reply, but oh my god that sounds like a fascinating comparison to make! Would love to hear more about it if you're willing to share!
Just my personal opinion with a pinch of insult to the If We Were Villians LOL... If We Were Villains is so bad but somehow it is engaging enough for me to not give up on it halfway. I found the main characters to be very 2D simplistic. The main male characters (Oliver and James esp) talks and acts like females so I assume a female wrote the book because the author doesn't seem to know how male interact with one another. I found the drama scene in the book very confusing, by that I meant I cannot virtualize how it actually is acting out so I am not impressed. Also, Richard's change is very drastic and seems to come from nowhere which annoys me because it is just childish and lazy writing from my point of view.
I think A Secret History is way better, although the quality dropped a bit in the end it was very well written and engaging with much more complicated characters. I personally loves Donna Tatt's books. i am not a native speaker but i found her book so easy to read and very engaging
Exactly tsh got me into reading again
completely agree! I feel like the characters were so much better layered and felt more human, and having a narrator you could actually care about was allowed me to get into the book so much more! I do think you’re very right about the female characters which is a shame :( Wren especially could have given an interesting perspective on things which was maybe a missed opportunity. But yes better characters, better paced and no queer baiting🫶🫶
I can’t lie, I am in genuine disbelief anyone in their right mind can prefer If We Were Villains to The Secret History. It is the knock off of all knock offs.
I read iwwv first. And its in my opiniok a more intimate book, its a tragic story of the live of an old friend . The characters were so vivid and it makes all sense… then the ending makes us sad and furious. As if u found out an old friend u lost contact with ruined their life
it's so not a knockoff tho??? like that's such a rude thing to say. there are similarities, but both are quite unique in their own aspects. i loved them both, although i preferred the prose of TSH, i think the characters were better written in IWWV. They felt a lot more intimate and at the end I was way more connected to IWWV. Both books were really good, but there's a few things that i think make IWWV more memorable.
thank youu ive been looking for someone saying this. so much of the plot of iwwv feels like it had no real reason for things to happen unless you look at the secret history and realise the author was just meeting the quota of a "dark academia" novel. especially when you look at richard (iwwv) vs bunny. richard's sudden shift into being abusive is completely without motivation. its obvious hes meant to be the bunny character but the author didnt think it mattered to create a scenario where it would be believable that his friends wanted him dead. i also simply dont agree with anyone saying the characters were more "heartfelt" in iwwv. they all had the personality of cardboard. most of the women were just sidelined the entire time, with the exception of meredith - whose only character trait was being hot. it was all style and no substance and the style was pretty damn lacklustre too.
The death of ***** destroyed me omg I don't even remember the he may be alive because I was so upset ahaha
I’m glad I read the secret history *first* because otherwise IWWV would have ruined it for me haha. Everything you said in your review I agreed with!
Me too! TSH laid the groundwork for me to adore IWWV. Glad you enjoyed!
I was a Shakespeare student and actually enjoyed reading IWWV more than The Secret History but does it not strike anyone as thinly veiled plagiarism?? Like…there are SO many similarities to A Secret History that it made me feel uncomfortable. It just reads like a more accessible version of the same story with slight differences in order to make it publishable….almost something akin to fan fiction. I couldn’t enjoy it for that reason alone. Just my opinion.
That's fair enough! For me, I discount it as plagarism on the basis that I.W. Gregorio openly accepts the comparisons and I believe has talked about the influence TSH has on the book. However, I can understand why it would be off-putting!
@@thepretentiouspoet oh I actually wasn’t aware the author had done that! That actually makes me feel a bit better about the comparison 🙂
I liked the book. Big fan of Donna Tartt per se, and I do think the text is an homage - but not too overtly to think it feels totally inauthentic etc. However....(spoiler alert stop reading now if you have not finished) Oliver's conviction to his criminal conviction...? Come on.....would you? No. I just do not buy it in the literal, and that is a problem. Perhaps, someone on a higher artistic, philosophical level, with some elevated justification might commit in this way, but really, a prison cell, prisoners, criminal record....damn : I do not think I would do that for my own child - let alone romantic love.....anyway. I suppose it could remind us of a Tale of Two Cities - the idea of self sacrifice.....The protagonist in TSH imitates Nick in The Great Gatsby - he's dull to replicate the middle class reader, and the fact he has to be dull to be obsessed with the characters as he is. I would not recommend it above TSH. I think it's a quicker and easier read - but really TSH is a greater work in many ways. I would also give it a high rating, but really TSH is, overall, the intertextual origin that this text pays homage to, and is really, better written - although really TSH is a merger of Crime and Punishment, The Great Gatsby, and a host of classical literary reference. Overall, IWWV is a very good read, but I would say TSH has the edge as the original force behind it, and just I think a greater gravitas and sense of impact.
Late response I know, but I really appreciate what you're saying! TSH owes a lot to its origins, and it is perhaps the more complex/literary book... but IWWV will always be my favourite!
I would like to buy this book but i don't know if my mum would allow me to
I love how much you enjoyed the book because I have been sitting on reading this book for about two years. I got into dark academia at the same time you did but I didn’t bother reading it because I was busy with uni. I feel like these as you had with the C history is what I kind of had with the book as well. I thought that it was unnecessarily misogynistic and I thought that Richard was so boring so I think I might enjoy this book. Thank you for encouraging me to read it!
So glad I could encourage you - I hope you enjoy it when you do get to it!
I love this video because English is not my first language but even with your accent, I can still understand it!
to be honest, I don't really like the competition between tsh and iwwv, i mean reading is fun because even with the same base (dark academia, students, a murder) you can have different stories, and different characters and different feelings!! and its a good thing!! yes, I tend to think that tsh is better than iwwv on a writing point of view, but does that mean I don't like iwwv? no, I adore this book!! in fact, I liked iwwv characters much more than tsh, even if it is one of the best books I've read, and even when donna tartt is one of my favorite authors ! so in the end I think its just two amazing books that should not be put in competition :) plus I think its a little exaggerated to say that M.L Rio has entirely copy tsh just because the atmosphere is the same ^^'
After reading the back of the book I wasn’t interested but hearing your synopsis makes me want to read this book! 👏🏻
Now that's the ultimate compliment! I hope you enjoy it if you do pick it up!
I agree with every word
Thank you!
i read if we were villains first not knowing anything about it i didnt even read the plot and im so glad i just picked it from the bookstore because i read someone comparing it with the secret history on its cover. when i finished it i loved it so much that i thought oh man i want more stuff like this and so i started the secret history. im on page 100 or so and im so utterly disappointed. people saying its "dark academia"but i dont see any love for literature and studying like m l rio did with her characters, making them talk about their love for great poets like shakespeare. and that makes you relate to the characters and enjoy the journey more. also theres so much suspense on iwwv not knowing who did the murder when in secret history you can kind of figure out everything that will happen. idk if im gonna finish it but probably will hoping my opinion will change and understand what the fuse is all about :// (ps i dont like how the donna tartt fans act like the secret history is some kind of a bible when it clearly romantices situations it shouldnt and iwwv is mlrios first and only book and is much more "respectful" and capturing the non-toxic side of the "dark academia" aesthetic-fandom perfectly)
Yeah, I definitely think that the order to read them in is TSH first, then IWWV! And I very much agree with you - the first hundred pages or so of TSH are very slow as it is, you have to get to the murder plot for it to start being properly engrossing, and yes, it's very hard to enjoy the character's passions for the Classics considering they are all just privileged students. I would say it's one of those books that it's worth reading if only to say that you read it, but if you've enjoyed IWWV, then you've already gotten what I consider to be the best parts of TSH. Hope you feel it's worthwhile if you do read the rest of it, or that you move on to something you enjoy far more!
I really hated iwwv so hearing a positive review is rather interesting !
That is interesting! I'd be interested to hear what didn't work for you!
@@thepretentiouspoet oh well I found the plot very predictable and I felt like the characters were not fully developed, like when did Richard become the bad guy ? I wished we had more insight on the relationships they had with one another before the tragedy (i seriously hoped we would get more informations on the crew but that did not happen, perhaps the book needed more pages to make the characters more likeable and less forgettable, for example Wren)
Add to that the overuse of Shakespeare's quotes, which can get tiring quickly (especially for non natives)
And the last point is probably just pure incomprehension on some details like I didn't get why at some point in the book the author brought up the fact that Oliver's sister had an eating disorder.
I also pity the character of Meredith for being objectified.
Anyway, that's how I felt ! I get why some people would love it, it's fast paced, it keeps you hooked because you want to know how it ends and the writing style is lovely but it just didn't do it for me !
@@averysmallcaptain oliver’s sister having the eating disorder is what made him go on a scholarship basically and bc of that he started cleaning around the place. that’s how he found all the evidence and started to put the piece together about what happened. he also was very anxious w the evidence he accidentally got that he hid them therefore making it easier for law to arrest him apart from confession by having proof so i think it wasn’t really incomprehensible.
but i agree about richard w u. i was waiting to get some insights on him and how he was before fourth year. i feel like his character just came n died. a little more personal stories between him and them would be better before his dead
Great review!
Thank you so much!
I liked IWWV a lot. However I LOVED the secret history
So glad you could get such enjoyment from both of them!
Have you been pursuing directing?
Very much! Since making that video I have co-directed two plays and assistant directed another one! It feels incredibly fulfilling
I apologize if you've already answered this, is there any explicit violence or sexual content? and if so how much?? thx!
It's been a little while since I've read it, but from what I remember, there's implied sexual content (heavy kissing and then waking up beside someone) but nothing more explicit than that. In terms of violence, there's roughly 2-3 scenes featuring blood and minor injuries, and one scene towards the end where there's more graphic violence described (the death of the classmate, which is definitely graphic but I'd say like a 5 on a scale of 1-10). Hope that's helpful, I'm sure someone will have a more definitive breakdown elsewhere, it's just been a while since I read it! Check StoryGraph - reviewers can list content warnings as graphic, moderate or minor, so that might be of use to you!
@@thepretentiouspoet thank you so much!
@@edsgirl9290 no problem!
Such a great book and a great review!
I completely agree on the first point, and thank you for the second point!
Love this!!!!
Thank you!
Will read for me these one by one?
I don't tell summary I deed more time is it possible
I am a very new reader, I wanted to ask that is this book Lgbt?
And is it ok for a 16-17 old teen to read this?
As,I am new in the world of books..
So,kindly help me out with this..
This book does feature three MLM characters but it is not focused on LGBTQ+ topics, so up to you whether you consider that LGBTQ+, really! I would say that it's appropriate for a 16-17 year old (I read it for the first time when I was 18), but as it contains violence, sexually suggestive content, and is all-round more adult, it's up to you to decide whether that's something you want to read.
@@thepretentiouspoet Ohk,Thank you very much.
May you please suggest a crime book for a 16-17?
@@SaumyaGupta778 I really liked One Of Us Is Lying by Karen M. McManus, which is a YA closed-room murder mystery - definitely for a younger audience than IWWV!
@@thepretentiouspoet Omg!
How is this even possible?
I ordered the same book..
My goodness!
Macbeth!!!! I'm all for it 😍😍😍
Honestly it hits all the into-theatre-but-not-a-theatre-kid vibes, definitely recommend for the Shakespeare content!
@@thepretentiouspoet :))
@@thepretentiouspoet I have a doubt ,is this book suitable for youger teens ?? (I mean does this book have sexual explicit content or violence!¿)
@@ipshitajee as I mentioned in reply to a similar comment, there are a few instances of violence, and there is some "fade-to-black" sexual content, but it would be worth looking into it yourself using a website like StoryGraph or Goodreads to see content warnings and reviews about it! It's been a while since I read the book and I can't remember well enough to advise you.
@@thepretentiouspoet thanks , actually my professor wants some recs for dark academia books .I wasn't sure whether it's suitable for the situation. 🤔
the sheer audacity of people saying iwwv is better than the secret history. the atrocity of it all. smh
it's alRight to like one over another but damn THE FREAKING AUDACITY IS PREPOSTEROUS.
u good?
I loved If We Were Villains, and I’m having a hard time with A Secret History. I’m just a character person and cannot stand a single character in The Secret History. Oh
And you have the audAcitY to insult other people for preferring another book than the one you favor. Unbelievable.
Because it is a copycat of the secret history?
i love both but i have to go with the secret history
That's awesome! What made The Secret History the best for you?