I keep old receipts for this reason. Bought my Colt Trooper( mkIII) for 500 from a pawn shop 18 years ago. .308/ 7.62 was going for 10$ a box at Wally world. Times are truly strange with the current admin.
I'm almost 66 and I started measuring loads of IMR 4064 when I was about 16, you do the math and in .308 I still use it a lot. It works as good as it ever did and my old Model 88 Winchester that came along new in 1971 shoots as good as it ever did despite a LOT of experience now. A friend of mine bought one of the new cheap Remington bolt guns and while here one day shot two of my reloads, which run perfectly fine in my 88 with no signs of pressure what so ever and are not overloaded at all and like to blew his gun up. Had to beat the bolt open both times. Both had blown the primers, it was ridiculous. I load about 42 grains as a rule, his gun shows pressure at 38 grains of the 4064. One reason why I never reload for others, other than they expect you to supply everything including hours of labor for a thank ya and a smile. You can about count on them bringing the empty brass back the next day for you to reload for them again too. LOL. Like your videos, but you about wear me out with that gas block. Glad I don't own one of those. Don't know if my old heart could take the stress of worrying over it. LOL.
I also have a model 88 in .308 and it shoots excellent. It was my Grandpa's gun and I've had it since '79. I've taken a lot of game with it. I also reload and a few friends think I get things for free.
I watched all of these when you first made them and find myself going back and watching them over and over again. Being an experienced handloader, it’s funny how I catch the small things every time rewatch. Good stuff. Just solid reference material.
I started my reloading life in about 1971 when I bought a new Winchester model 88 lever actuated Bolt Action rifle as they advertised it. A turn bolt rifle ran with a lever. In .308. For a long time I didn't know there was any powder other than IMR 4064 and IMR 3031 made. I know I've loaded a ton of it. Now I've got probably fifty different bullets loaded in front of as many different powders. Like most of us end up with, looking for that perfect magic load. You know, that one that will shoot one hole groups at a mile with 40 grains of unicorn dust and a silver bullet. I just loaded fifty .308's yesterday with 165 grain Hornady GMX bullets and Benchmark, ( Because that's what I had and you can't buy so much as a primer where I live right now ). I lost track of how many deer that rifle has taken long ago but lets just say over forty and a box car load of coyotes and other critters, It's been a fine rifle for me and I'm 66 now.
In 2009 the Crane spec sheet has 7.62 special ball, Long range, which is MK316 mod 0, loaded with 41.7 grains of i4064 with a 175 grain SMK in a federal case with a 210M primer. I have the sheet in my photos on my Macbook. I have but one carton of Mk 316 and I don't want to sacrifice any more of the cartridges than I have to, so I limited the comparison to two Mk 316 and two M 118LR. I realize this is very limited data on which to base any conclusions but here's what I found. Mk 316 Mod 0, headstamp FC 11. Case weight w/primer = 181.6 grains Bullet weight = 175.0 grains Powder = 43.7 grains IMR 4064 Water capacity = 54.0 grains M 118 LR, headstamp LC 15 LR Case weight w/primer = 183.0 grains Bullet weight = 175.2 grains Powder = 43.3 grains Reloder 15 Water capacity = 53.7 grains.
40 years + reloading the .308. Accurate 2520,Accurate2015 BR and Reloader 15 have been overall the most accurate powders I've loaded for the .308.Primers make a BIG difference,found an extremely accurate load using Federal Magnum Match primers(All I had at the time).But remember start at minimum recommend load.They burn HOT!
I’ve been using Federal brass, IMR 4064 - 42 gr with SMK 175 BTHP for years. I first used Winchester large rifle primers and had blown out primers. I switched to CCI 200 and bingo, perfect recipe. I shoot out to 600 yards with outstanding results.
Johnny, I just discovered your channel with the 308 AR10 build video series and this is exactly the kind of build/reloading/shooting all in one and it's awesome. Please keep up the good work. I also picked up a Aero M5 builders set and am picking out a barrel, which is how I found your video series.
The M118LR and the Gold Smk are very similar but the M118 OAL is 2.83 unlike the GMM SMK OAL is 2.80. I believe the powder in the M118 uses RL15. Food for thought, the IMI 7.62LR (match) is loaded to 2.85 with 175gr SMK and they shoot very well. the best mags to use these types of ammo are C-product metal mags.
As an added note... At the place where I work, 118LR is used almost exclusively. All our semi-auto chassis firearms put extractor marks on the brass when using a can. I think that just might be the nature of the beast. But the marks don't make the brass unstable/unusable for reloads.
Varget all the way. 45.0 gr behind a 175 SMK is a good load, yes max, but good none the less. I started with IMR-4064 and it was too temperature sensitive for me (I was loading for long range and temps ranging from 65 to 90 deg F). I was using Win brass and CCI 200 primers for both loads. 4064 did a good job, I just had to down load it for the warmer seasons. This is with a Savage 10FP with 20in bbl.
I wound up at the same combination of powder and bullet by accident. I noticed the match Fiochi and Federal used the 175 gr SMK and IMR 4064 was the one powder that would work pretty well in all my rifle cartridges. The best accuracy I've found is 42.5 gr with CCI #34 primers. They were all I could find when I started reloading for 308.
I get ejector swipes in my AR10 when it’s suppressed too, even with the gas turned down to the lowest setting I can run it at and still lock the bolt. I’ve found that 42.5gn and 44.3gn of 4064 gave me the best groups, with the 44.3gn shooting the best, but it was too hot and I blew a primer. I use 42.5gn now with LC brass that I neck turn to .0145. I run .003 of neck tension, .001 of crimp, and a base to ogive length of 2.235. Also using CCI BR2 primers. I’m getting about .6 MOA at 100yds with this load, which is excellent in my opinion. Side note, I use a 13” reflex suppressor, so it actually doesn’t increase the gas terribly bad, but it’s definitely rough on my brass.
JRB- When I am measuring cartridge length I put on my Hornady bullet comparator and measure the ogive to base, then I turn the cartridge around and set the base against the comparator and can measure overall length. It just speeds up the measuring a little bit and so far I have not seen any difference in accuracy in OAL. Great video Thanks!
I know the video is old but I acted to retest this load as I have tried it before when I was a novice loader and it did about a minute at 100 yards retested yesterday at 44.5 grain and got a sub half minute group looking forward to retest hope it continues to perform and velocity was 2730 on the labradar thanks for doing this video
Ive found that 7.62X51 LC brass holds quite a bit less powder than regular 308 brass. Max charges in LC brass is like 2 grains less if I remember correct. I dont use LC 7.62 brass anymore because of this. Better velocities in regular ol 308 winchester brass due to higher max charges.
mojo jojo you're right. 7.62x51 NATO has a smaller case volume, and a lower max pressure rating. 7.62x51 is loaded with the M1A or M14 design in mind, although the majority of LC 762x51 is used in M240 variants these days. You can load to higher pressure and better velocitys using 308 Win data as long as you're using 308 stamped brass. You can use 308 in some 762x51 stamped firearms, but it's usually against the manufacturers recommendation. 762x51 will work in all 308 guns, but may not give best performance. Usually manuals have 308 win and 308 service rifle, and 30-06 and 30-06 Garand for guns such as the M1Garand or the Spring 03.
If you want some 175 gr smk factory, PSA usually has them on sale for around 16.99 to 18.99 on sale depending on the day and stuff. Thats what i used to break in my m24 rebuild from remington.
Varget and federal match primers. I have used 4064 in the 3006 for years. I guess I will try it in 308. I seem to get very good results with bl c-2.as well. Love the versatility of 4064 ,varget and Blc-2
I can't wait to start loading my bulk Nosler 175 HPBT. Right now with 44.2 gr of 4064 + 178 gr AMAX I get 2705 fps average from a 24" barrel in 55 degree weather. Helped me get out to 1000 yards.
@@jimhans1 Late update. Dropping this load. I was finally able to go shooting again. In only 75 degree weather I'm getting heavy bolt lift! As the barrel got hotter, I had one round reaching 2797!
I was checking out what parts I need to convert my JP Silent Captured Spring to AR-10. Looks like a new bumper stop thingy and a different spring. That would probably be my most flexible way forward. I'm sure I'll be dicking with the buffer before too long.
Take the 20 Fed Match cases and reload them with 42.4 gr. IMR 4064 and see if they duplicate the factory results. Weigh the Fed Match cases and find new brass that has the same weight / case capacity and clone the factory loading again and see if the new brass duplicates the factory results. The point being to see if new vs full length sized brass react similarly. I think they will not as fired brass never gets returned to new brass dimensions / hardness. Use Fed primers for all reloads to match components.
Always look forward to your videos very informative content and like the fact you show or at least explain your mistakes. Channel has really made me look forward to reloading.
Great starting video to the series, I'm waiting to fund the finish of my 6.5 creedmore. Meanwhile my 308 shoots the 168g good so I can't wait to start with the 175 SMK. This will keep me busy!!!
Yes stick with the lapua brass until you fine tune a pet load. My formula is best powder weight then best seating depth with that load then switch up primes and done. This video is one of your best lately, liking this format it's more Scientific and won't "blow your face off"
Anxious to see velocity from MR-2000 in that gun. Paired with a 195 TMK it should be very interesting. In another video on snipershide he was getting 2700+ with a 180 in a bolt gun.
I have found it to be an amazing velocity powder in 223, 6.5 Grendel, and 224 Valkyrie already. I'm with you...I can't wait to see what it's capable of in 308. I'm guessing velocities will be even better than CFE 223, I just hope it's accurate!
My first test loads for my 20 inch BA barrel are, FC once fired with CCI LG RIFLE primers and IMR4064 in .3 grain jumps under a Hornady 150gn FMJBT. I need to get my scope sighted in first.
Give Peterson brass a try if you ever stumble upon any. Very pleased with their small primer (palma style) 1.5mm flash whole brass (at least when I can find Federal Gm205M primers hah!). Bout 15% cheaper than Lapua, but still high quality brass imo.
In the interest of minimizing the variables stick with the lapua brass & cci . I have a m77 that's been sitting here for a few years I just brought up to 922r. I have to try that federal before I get .308 dies. I have a couple of sks's here that shoot amazing with federal power shock ( expensive), I'd like to clone that load. Thanks for all your work !
Johnny, I simply love your reloading videos. You’re among the BEST on all of the internet to watch. But did I just hear you mutter the phrase “sexy primer pockets”??!! Lol I had to laugh. I have never heard that before, and makes me start to wonder about your private life Buddy! Lol Just kidding John. Keep your videos coming!! (No pun intended)
I gave up shooting my 308 AR suppressed. I tuned it to shoot unsuppressed. I could not find a good gas setting. When I was suppressed FGMM shoots fine but then Wolf would short stroke. Set up for xm80 and wolf would cycle but FGMM would raise burs and be way over gassed. Take the suppressor away and it shoots everything great. From my handloads to wolf and Tula.
That sucks. That really, really sucks. Hopefully there are at least some powders out there that will let us shoot suppressed. The search should be fun!
I found if I stick to one load I can get it to shoot suppressed nicely, but even doing load development it would choke just from going from the beginning load to the higher loads. I would do load development unsuppressed and find the best load, then add the suppresser and tune for that load. I will follow you for the search, Love you channel Johnny! Thinking of picking up a mossberg MVP or ruger precision since it takes the same mags for suppressed use.
I’ve shot all 3 different types you were talking about. And their isn’t any difference at all that I could tell with the external and terminal ballistics of them. The LC we shot when I was in the service is just like the .308 I shoot as a civilian now.
I load 41.75gr of IMR 4064 under the 175gr SMK at 2.810 coal for my 26” 1:10 REM 700 varmint. 2680 fps and consistently .75 moa or less with a best of .44 moa for 5 rounds.
Bought a case of 500 175 SMK. Ended up getting a mix of gov loads and civilian loads. I've found the gov loads are more consistent and group better. Gov Stamped FC15, civilian stamped FC 308 win.
Interesting. With my PA10 and using the Hornady 178gr ELD Match in Lake City brass I got like 2350 fps with 40gr 4064, but I loaded mine out to 2.820". I only tried 40gr and 40.5gr for my first test and they shot like crap. I'm surprised by the variations in the load data with .308 when comparing Hornady, Sierra, and Lyman so I've been starting way low on everything and slowly working up. It's a new caliber for me.... . My rifle loves the 168gr SMK and 4064 though. I'm approaching 1 MOA groups with them and I'm using factory seconds that my dad bought when he visited the Sierra plant (we live in MO). Maybe I got lucky but I'm extremely impressed with this Palmetto PA10. I'm about 300 rounds in and the only malfunction I've had was caused by my brass catcher. It loves the Malaysian surplus, I always use that to foul it/warm it up before shooting my reloads. The rifle was a hell of a deal considering I paid $535 shipped for the entire rifle and am running a 15 dollar pawn shop scope on it. I am saving up for a nicer scope.... I will also be removing the A2 front sight and free float it eventually... As long as it will consistently shoot 1 MOA with handloads I will leave the Palmetto barrel on it. If it won't, I'll put something nicer on eventually as well.
You essentially duplicated my findings with the 4064/SMK. With the same charge weights, our velocity/SD were within 1% of each other. I matched the velocity you are looking for with 43gr of powder @2585fps.
I think the CCI 200 primers are fine, however using Federal #210M primers might give you better results, which are the primers used in the Feral factory loads. Also if you start using the IMI brass, which I believe is thicker, I think hitting the high mark may become difficult for you. Great vid as always, keep it up.
My suggestion is stick with Lapua and repeat one or two or three groups of your best result(s) in this video for conformation of a valid benchmark and then compare them against any new loadings you may choose. I value your choices of test loads and testing but also think 5 samples are kinda on the small size to draw big conclusions from. Best to you in future testing and as always look forward to your videos. John
After building my Defiance/AICS chassis/Bartlein barrel, I have a hard time going back to my M5E1. It is fun hitting the gong enough times in a row with a 20 round magazine to flip it off the chains though :D
EWA-- Agree one thing push the velocity to 2710fps,it’s a sub ,.5 usually much better. I used the IMI Match Brass MILSPEC smaller case capacity but the 42.2 w/ F210GM primers is a hell of a round with Sierra 175’s,.@2.810 oal. Shout sub .250 @500yds out of a bolt gun,26 Hart tube. I prefer the 5R barrels over all others.SS.
In my LaRue (which has a tight chamber) I tested a bunch of recipes and found that with Lapua brass the 42gr of 4064 was boarder line hot but really accurate. Also CCI #200 but using the Nosler 175 CC. BTO 2.210 ... COAL 2.810 (mag length for my Magpul mags)
I have some 168 ELD’s and 178 ELDX’s loaded with 8202 XBR for about a month now. I have not been able to get to the range due to work. What LaRue do you have? Mine is a 20” OBR. Love my 2 LaRue’s.
I don’t have one...I’m not in the club. But I called Lothar Walther and sourced a 20 inch bbl from them. I was cautious to say it was the same but EVERYTHING people write about this bbl/rifle is the same.
I know this is an old video but have you tried playing with the new staball match powder ? Hodgdon is the only place I can find load data on the 175 SMK for staball match . Max says 46 gr . I started a little on the low side 44 gr avg 2572 14/36 … 44.3 gr 2571 21/53…44.6 gr 2584. 17/46…. 44.9 gr 2626 19/46 and 45.2 gr 2619. 13/35…. All groups were blah at 1-1.4 … good velocity. I’m gonna try again but start at 45.4 in 2/10ths increments up to 46.6 and watch for pressure as I creep over the max of 46gr . Hoping the groups will tighten up. Starline brass. Also this is out of a AR 308 centurion MK11 receiver set, BA 20” premium barrel. I’ve also had finicky gas ADJ gas block running suppressed with a sandman S . Functions beautifully when not suppressed.
I actually saw a delivery slip for the federal gold medal match when I was in the military......the recipe? Fed brass, 175 gr smk, 41.745 gr of imr 4064.....I run CCI primers. That's what I load, with excellent results !
that's almost what I got when trying to work up a reload. 41.75 imr4064, Fed brass, Fed 210, 175smk. paid very close attention to the pockets and primer holes. but mine like almost no jump and to long for the mag so i single feed. well under 1moa @ 200yds.
If you follow the OCW method and Dan Newberry, Your accuracy at 40.8 and 42 with low SD and ES falls right in with what he says. If 40.8 is an OCW (optimal charge weight), then the next node would be 3% higher in charge, or 42.024 with a scatter node at 41.4 which we can see that 41.2 and 41.8 spread out with both suppressed and unsuppressed. I think you are looking good at 42.0 or maybe even 42.2 which is close to the factory load. I would bet 42.2 would be center of the node and 42.0 and 42.4 brackets the node. Just my two cents, but I am no professional lol.
Measure the volume difference between the two brands of brass. If they're pretty close to the same, shoot the Lapua until they die. If there's a significant difference, go with the IWI, because you're going to have to start over soon anyway.
Evening buddy from England. I was thinking, with the sub on it would not work right, an start to open an i was right. So all the times I've been learning. "pats myself on back 😁". Thanks for sharing as it's been very helpful as I don't reload yet. Can't wait to start doing it. Haven't got any of the kit yet. But seeing utube an leaning all the time. ATVB Andy
It’s troubling that the suppressor pressure is starting to tear up the brass. You might consider a adjustable gas key on the bolt, I’ve been considering one for my AR-15 300 AAC pistol length gas system. Looks like you can get a much finer adjustment.
Love how you say the IMI brass is good looking. Not that it matters how it looks, it's how it shoots that counts. That said I agree and I have been known to polish all of my match loads. Sick right. LOL.
hey johnny love your videos very informative thank you...hey just build an ar 10 (308 ) 18" carbon fiber barrel light titanium bolt so i need some reloads 308 a lot ...
I expect you will keep getting groups like the ones you've seen no matter what you try JRB. That was the issue I had with my 2 JP barrels, it would tease me with fluke groups randomly but on average, grouped between 1.0-1.5" with whatever I tried. Edit: there was zero consistency in them for tight groups. They always had me chasing. Edit 2: My krieger barrels will always shoot 42.5gr of 4064 with 168-190gr bullets into .5-.75" groups every time no matter what.
Johnny's Reloading Bench I HOPE that your barrel isn't like that, just letting you know my experiences is all. Did you see link I sent in other chat?? www.wiserprecision.com/
I have the exact same gun and I had the exact same issues with an adjustable gas block. I finally changed it to non-adjustable and at least if fires now. So upsetting.....
It doesn't surprise me that the factory power looks like IMR 4064 because that's what M118 has been loaded with for many years. I think for best velocity however you should try the old fallback, RL17.
Howdy Johnny. Liking the vids. Your very in-depth but not in a boring way. Learn alot just from watching... Thank you! I can see you get alot of comments, and reply to alot of them too. I imagine that takes up alot of time, so no worries if u dont get to answering this, but I still want to ask. Im hoping you can tell me the model\brand of bipod you have on your M5E1 setup? It reminds me of a versapod but looks a bit different. Thx again. Cheers, Josh
Two avenues. Increase the powder charge to 42.3 and 42.6 and keep the 42.0. Second is to adjust jump in .015 increments. Don’t worry about feeding it through the mag, just find the jump to get the best accuracy. I also recommended sticking with Lapua brass, but, you might consider getting it annealed. Third, try Win primers.
You should be measuring your overall length of your cartridge from the ogive of the bullet not the tip. After watching your complete video I suggest that where your factory ammo shot better groups than your handloads, you may want to consider measuring your overall length from the ogive because that's probably what the factory did, and experiment with different bullet seating depth from jump to just touch to jam before you start fooling around with powder charges. As a benchrester, we always start with bullet depth before experimenting with charges to see what bullet depth a particular Barrel likes. Once we get a tight group then we start fooling around with the Chargers to determine what that does to improve the group. After that it's back and forth tweaking both the bullet seating depth and the charges till we get what we're aiming for.
The difference between Varget and IMR 4064 is according to IDI Australian Defense Industry that manufactures the AR series of smokeless powders which are the exact same smokeless powders that Hodgdon sells is around 5% . Varget is AR2208 You will find this information on powder equivalents at ADI-powders.com.au
Johnny, I love your methodology; just curious how your results would be if you were shooting a good grade bolt gun. Last Friday afternoon, prior to working an abatement project, I shot a .310 with 150 gr. Nolser Accubonds stacked on 47.5 grains of Varget, which is routine. The rifle will shoot in the .100’s with quality Bergers. I moved away from 4064 about ten years ago because Varget was better and more temperature stable. Keep up the great work.
What was the previous barrel you had on? I currently have an M5E1 with a Ballistic Advantage 20" Bull Barrel and an Aero Precision BCG. I've been struggling to get the gun sub-moa. I find that at 100 yards I can usually shoot 3/4 moa groups but once I get out to 200+ yards it's an MOA or just over MOA shooter. I'm certainly capable of better shooting. With 3 of my other rifles I consistently shoot 1/2 MOA so I'm wondering if the 308 Ballistic Advantage barrels are just finicky.
FGM 308 Win is like the military load It’s a low node load not a High node load. Yes 41.8 for 175 and 42.8 for 168 MK My high node lode is 44.5 of IMR 4064 for both bullets and WW brass with Fed 210m
I had imi match brass it wasn't good for me it was heavier than lake city. I found Winchester was the best for me easier to resize. Imi was good for reduced loads to manage recoil
One more lapua and increase weights!!! Great stuff man, always look forward to the new videos. One complaint can you screw your mag release button a bit more, just been bugging me since the 308 lower build video lol.
Ok , I have a question , and you're smart . Although I'm not new to hand loading , I have never loaded military brass , and I have aquired quite a few peices . I know the walls are thicker and will cause less capacity and preaures will be higher , Do I need to use reduced charges , or is common loading manual data good to go ? This will be for a 308 bolt gun , and 5.56 in an AR , of course . Any light you could shine would be great .
4 years later... And looking back to when FGMM ammo was available and just $21.95 a box.
"Before the dark times. Before the empire"
That's the damn truth 😂😂
5 years later, and it can still be hand loaded for cheaper 👍
I keep old receipts for this reason. Bought my Colt Trooper( mkIII) for 500 from a pawn shop 18 years ago. .308/ 7.62 was going for 10$ a box at Wally world. Times are truly strange with the current admin.
I'm almost 66 and I started measuring loads of IMR 4064 when I was about 16, you do the math and in .308 I still use it a lot. It works as good as it ever did and my old Model 88 Winchester that came along new in 1971 shoots as good as it ever did despite a LOT of experience now. A friend of mine bought one of the new cheap Remington bolt guns and while here one day shot two of my reloads, which run perfectly fine in my 88 with no signs of pressure what so ever and are not overloaded at all and like to blew his gun up. Had to beat the bolt open both times. Both had blown the primers, it was ridiculous. I load about 42 grains as a rule, his gun shows pressure at 38 grains of the 4064. One reason why I never reload for others, other than they expect you to supply everything including hours of labor for a thank ya and a smile. You can about count on them bringing the empty brass back the next day for you to reload for them again too. LOL. Like your videos, but you about wear me out with that gas block. Glad I don't own one of those. Don't know if my old heart could take the stress of worrying over it. LOL.
I also have a model 88 in .308 and it shoots excellent. It was my Grandpa's gun and I've had it since '79. I've taken a lot of game with it. I also reload and a few friends think I get things for free.
I watched all of these when you first made them and find myself going back and watching them over and over again. Being an experienced handloader, it’s funny how I catch the small things every time rewatch. Good stuff. Just solid reference material.
Watching groups tighten, and loosen and tighten back up again, all based on charge....Very addictive!
Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ bell curve
What video were you watching? Handloaded groups sucked. And they didn’t tighten up.
I started my reloading life in about 1971 when I bought a new Winchester model 88 lever actuated Bolt Action rifle as they advertised it. A turn bolt rifle ran with a lever. In .308. For a long time I didn't know there was any powder other than IMR 4064 and IMR 3031 made. I know I've loaded a ton of it. Now I've got probably fifty different bullets loaded in front of as many different powders. Like most of us end up with, looking for that perfect magic load. You know, that one that will shoot one hole groups at a mile with 40 grains of unicorn dust and a silver bullet. I just loaded fifty .308's yesterday with 165 grain Hornady GMX bullets and Benchmark, ( Because that's what I had and you can't buy so much as a primer where I live right now ). I lost track of how many deer that rifle has taken long ago but lets just say over forty and a box car load of coyotes and other critters, It's been a fine rifle for me and I'm 66 now.
In 2009 the Crane spec sheet has 7.62 special ball, Long range, which is MK316 mod 0, loaded with 41.7 grains of i4064 with a 175 grain SMK in a federal case with a 210M primer. I have the sheet in my photos on my Macbook.
I have but one carton of Mk 316 and I don't want to sacrifice any more of the cartridges than I have to, so I limited the comparison to two Mk 316 and two M 118LR. I realize this is very limited data on which to base any conclusions but here's what I found.
Mk 316 Mod 0, headstamp FC 11.
Case weight w/primer = 181.6 grains
Bullet weight = 175.0 grains
Powder = 43.7 grains IMR 4064
Water capacity = 54.0 grains
M 118 LR, headstamp LC 15 LR
Case weight w/primer = 183.0 grains
Bullet weight = 175.2 grains
Powder = 43.3 grains Reloder 15
Water capacity = 53.7 grains.
This would be interesting to check with lapua brass using both palma and large rifle brass and look at the SDs.
118LR was loaded with RL15 AND they went to MK316MOD0 with 4064 for the temp stability you mentioned same 175gr. Great videos!
It would be interesting to see what you get with AR Comp, its supposed to be a temp stable rl15 so it might even do better than 4064
40 years + reloading the .308. Accurate 2520,Accurate2015 BR and Reloader 15 have been overall the most accurate powders I've loaded for the .308.Primers make a BIG difference,found an extremely accurate load using Federal Magnum Match primers(All I had at the time).But remember start at minimum recommend load.They burn HOT!
Lots of experience shows in the comments. Rarely have I enjoyed watching any more than this! Both thumbs up.
I really enjoy your videos and the way you go through everything. Thanks.
Don't forget the free loading trays from your 45 acp box of factory ammo.
I’ve been using Federal brass, IMR 4064 - 42 gr with SMK 175 BTHP for years. I first used Winchester large rifle primers and had blown out primers. I switched to CCI 200 and bingo, perfect recipe. I shoot out to 600 yards with outstanding results.
My 20" barrel loves this IMR load at 42.0 g but with 168 gr SMK
glad your sticking with this load and trying to get it figured out!
Yeah, it will be nice to actually complete the job for once!
Johnny's Reloading Bench did you ever plan on doing a conclusion video?
Absolutely perfect timing. Sitting in oral surgery center waiting room watching this while waiting on the wife’s wisdom tooth extraction.
I hope you've got a super loud external bluetooth speaker. Spread the word.
Eggs and jello are your friend. If you smoke dont. Had a friend get 4 dry sockets
Thanks for the video keep it up! 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
Johnny,
I just discovered your channel with the 308 AR10 build video series and this is exactly the kind of build/reloading/shooting all in one and it's awesome. Please keep up the good work.
I also picked up a Aero M5 builders set and am picking out a barrel, which is how I found your video series.
My Tikka Tac 308 rifle looooooooooooves this load. Especially with the Hornady ELD rounds. A close second is RL15 in performance and velocity.
I just put together a batch of 168g TMKs over 4064 working from 41.5 to 43 gr pretty excited to see how they do.
Msw 96
How did your loads do ?
The M118LR and the Gold Smk are very similar but the M118 OAL is 2.83 unlike the GMM SMK OAL is 2.80. I believe the powder in the M118 uses RL15.
Food for thought, the IMI 7.62LR (match) is loaded to 2.85 with 175gr SMK and they shoot very well.
the best mags to use these types of ammo are C-product metal mags.
As an added note...
At the place where I work, 118LR is used almost exclusively. All our semi-auto chassis firearms put extractor marks on the brass when using a can. I think that just might be the nature of the beast. But the marks don't make the brass unstable/unusable for reloads.
Varget all the way. 45.0 gr behind a 175 SMK is a good load, yes max, but good none the less. I started with IMR-4064 and it was too temperature sensitive for me (I was loading for long range and temps ranging from 65 to 90 deg F). I was using Win brass and CCI 200 primers for both loads. 4064 did a good job, I just had to down load it for the warmer seasons. This is with a Savage 10FP with 20in bbl.
I wound up at the same combination of powder and bullet by accident. I noticed the match Fiochi and Federal used the 175 gr SMK and IMR 4064 was the one powder that would work pretty well in all my rifle cartridges. The best accuracy I've found is 42.5 gr with CCI #34 primers. They were all I could find when I started reloading for 308.
I get ejector swipes in my AR10 when it’s suppressed too, even with the gas turned down to the lowest setting I can run it at and still lock the bolt. I’ve found that 42.5gn and 44.3gn of 4064 gave me the best groups, with the 44.3gn shooting the best, but it was too hot and I blew a primer. I use 42.5gn now with LC brass that I neck turn to .0145. I run .003 of neck tension, .001 of crimp, and a base to ogive length of 2.235. Also using CCI BR2 primers. I’m getting about .6 MOA at 100yds with this load, which is excellent in my opinion. Side note, I use a 13” reflex suppressor, so it actually doesn’t increase the gas terribly bad, but it’s definitely rough on my brass.
Looks like things are back on track. Great video.
JRB- When I am measuring cartridge length I put on my Hornady bullet comparator and measure the ogive to base, then I turn the cartridge around and set the base against the comparator and can measure overall length. It just speeds up the measuring a little bit and so far I have not seen any difference in accuracy in OAL. Great video Thanks!
I know the video is old but I acted to retest this load as I have tried it before when I was a novice loader and it did about a minute at 100 yards retested yesterday at 44.5 grain and got a sub half minute group looking forward to retest hope it continues to perform and velocity was 2730 on the labradar thanks for doing this video
4064 is my favorite for 308 my most accurate for a savage model 10 is 43.2gr with 178 A-max
Ive found that 7.62X51 LC brass holds quite a bit less powder than regular 308 brass. Max charges in LC brass is like 2 grains less if I remember correct. I dont use LC 7.62 brass anymore because of this. Better velocities in regular ol 308 winchester brass due to higher max charges.
mojo jojo you're right. 7.62x51 NATO has a smaller case volume, and a lower max pressure rating. 7.62x51 is loaded with the M1A or M14 design in mind, although the majority of LC 762x51 is used in M240 variants these days. You can load to higher pressure and better velocitys using 308 Win data as long as you're using 308 stamped brass. You can use 308 in some 762x51 stamped firearms, but it's usually against the manufacturers recommendation. 762x51 will work in all 308 guns, but may not give best performance. Usually manuals have 308 win and 308 service rifle, and 30-06 and 30-06 Garand for guns such as the M1Garand or the Spring 03.
If you want some 175 gr smk factory, PSA usually has them on sale for around 16.99 to 18.99 on sale depending on the day and stuff. Thats what i used to break in my m24 rebuild from remington.
Varget and federal match primers. I have used 4064 in the 3006 for years. I guess I will try it in 308. I seem to get very good results with bl c-2.as well. Love the versatility of 4064 ,varget and Blc-2
YES! This will be an awesome series!
Any powder suggestions?
I’d try IMR 4895, Reloader 15, Varget, IMR 8208, Accurate 2520, AR-comp. Basically all those you’re using for the Mk262 series.
Looking forward to you making a replacement for the FGMM 175smk. Get it done. Excited about this one.
This is why my 308 Win is a bolt gun, Savage Model 10, with a 24 inch barrel
Love to see more gold medal match videos! Love your content either way
I can't wait to start loading my bulk Nosler 175 HPBT. Right now with 44.2 gr of 4064 + 178 gr AMAX I get 2705 fps average from a 24" barrel in 55 degree weather. Helped me get out to 1000 yards.
jimhans1 Remington 700. Actually its getting hotter here in the desert now. I'll definitely test that!
@@jimhans1 Late update. Dropping this load. I was finally able to go shooting again. In only 75 degree weather I'm getting heavy bolt lift! As the barrel got hotter, I had one round reaching 2797!
Thats awesome. I literally just ordered that orange Lyman tray last night off midway. The orange is a neat color.
The original M118lr was R15 prior to 01, then was changed mid deployment to 42.6 of 4064 because the temp sensitivity issues at elevation
Love the .308 work. That’s my jam. Can you talk about crimping .308 for AR10’s?
A heavier buffer will help gas issues itll slow lock time. It starting to unlock bolt b4 bullet leaves and drops chamber preasure.
I was checking out what parts I need to convert my JP Silent Captured Spring to AR-10. Looks like a new bumper stop thingy and a different spring. That would probably be my most flexible way forward. I'm sure I'll be dicking with the buffer before too long.
Take the 20 Fed Match cases and reload them with 42.4 gr. IMR 4064 and see if they duplicate the factory results. Weigh the Fed Match cases and find new brass that has the same weight / case capacity and clone the factory loading again and see if the new brass duplicates the factory results. The point being to see if new vs full length sized brass react similarly. I think they will not as fired brass never gets returned to new brass dimensions / hardness. Use Fed primers for all reloads to match components.
Yes...Federal 210 M. It will show in the SDs.
Always look forward to your videos very informative content and like the fact you show or at least explain your mistakes. Channel has really made me look forward to reloading.
That's great to hear, brother. Thanks!
I have the same problem with ejector marks. Been thinking the ejector may be a little proud on some of the 308 bolts
I’ve used reloader 15 for my .308 Sierra 175 gr MatchKing with match primers. Love that load.
Great starting video to the series, I'm waiting to fund the finish of my 6.5 creedmore. Meanwhile my 308 shoots the 168g good so I can't wait to start with the 175 SMK. This will keep me busy!!!
I used 44.4 gr of imr4064 with 175 smk .006 off the lands with a savage 11 (bolt action) got 1/4 inch group at 100 yards
Yes stick with the lapua brass until you fine tune a pet load. My formula is best powder weight then best seating depth with that load then switch up primes and done. This video is one of your best lately, liking this format it's more Scientific and won't "blow your face off"
Anxious to see velocity from MR-2000 in that gun. Paired with a 195 TMK it should be very interesting. In another video on snipershide he was getting 2700+ with a 180 in a bolt gun.
I have found it to be an amazing velocity powder in 223, 6.5 Grendel, and 224 Valkyrie already. I'm with you...I can't wait to see what it's capable of in 308. I'm guessing velocities will be even better than CFE 223, I just hope it's accurate!
My first test loads for my 20 inch BA barrel are, FC once fired with CCI LG RIFLE primers and IMR4064 in .3 grain jumps under a Hornady 150gn FMJBT. I need to get my scope sighted in first.
Good luck! Let me know how those Hornady's shoot.
Give Peterson brass a try if you ever stumble upon any. Very pleased with their small primer (palma style) 1.5mm flash whole brass (at least when I can find Federal Gm205M primers hah!). Bout 15% cheaper than Lapua, but still high quality brass imo.
In the interest of minimizing the variables stick with the lapua brass & cci . I have a m77 that's been sitting here for a few
years I just brought up to 922r. I have to try that federal before I get .308 dies. I have a couple of sks's here that shoot amazing
with federal power shock ( expensive), I'd like to clone that load. Thanks for all your work !
Johnny, I simply love your reloading videos. You’re among the BEST on all of the internet to watch. But did I just hear you mutter the phrase “sexy primer pockets”??!! Lol
I had to laugh. I have never heard that before, and makes me start to wonder about your private life Buddy! Lol Just kidding John. Keep your videos coming!! (No pun intended)
. Great series Johnny. I'm enjoying it. You seem to keep making the stuff I would want to make just before I decide to make it
I gave up shooting my 308 AR suppressed. I tuned it to shoot unsuppressed. I could not find a good gas setting. When I was suppressed FGMM shoots fine but then Wolf would short stroke. Set up for xm80 and wolf would cycle but FGMM would raise burs and be way over gassed. Take the suppressor away and it shoots everything great. From my handloads to wolf and Tula.
That sucks. That really, really sucks. Hopefully there are at least some powders out there that will let us shoot suppressed. The search should be fun!
I found if I stick to one load I can get it to shoot suppressed nicely, but even doing load development it would choke just from going from the beginning load to the higher loads. I would do load development unsuppressed and find the best load, then add the suppresser and tune for that load. I will follow you for the search, Love you channel Johnny!
Thinking of picking up a mossberg MVP or ruger precision since it takes the same mags for suppressed use.
I’ve shot all 3 different types you were talking about. And their isn’t any difference at all that I could tell with the external and terminal ballistics of them. The LC we shot when I was in the service is just like the .308 I shoot as a civilian now.
In my 308's, IMR 4064 and RL15 are consistently the best powders by far.....
I load 41.75gr of IMR 4064 under the 175gr SMK at 2.810 coal for my 26” 1:10 REM 700 varmint. 2680 fps and consistently .75 moa or less with a best of .44 moa for 5 rounds.
After the two factory ammo groups, we have seen what the JP barrel can do.
Bought a case of 500 175 SMK. Ended up getting a mix of gov loads and civilian loads. I've found the gov loads are more consistent and group better. Gov Stamped FC15, civilian stamped FC 308 win.
Interesting. With my PA10 and using the Hornady 178gr ELD Match in Lake City brass I got like 2350 fps with 40gr 4064, but I loaded mine out to 2.820". I only tried 40gr and 40.5gr for my first test and they shot like crap. I'm surprised by the variations in the load data with .308 when comparing Hornady, Sierra, and Lyman so I've been starting way low on everything and slowly working up. It's a new caliber for me....
.
My rifle loves the 168gr SMK and 4064 though. I'm approaching 1 MOA groups with them and I'm using factory seconds that my dad bought when he visited the Sierra plant (we live in MO).
Maybe I got lucky but I'm extremely impressed with this Palmetto PA10. I'm about 300 rounds in and the only malfunction I've had was caused by my brass catcher. It loves the Malaysian surplus, I always use that to foul it/warm it up before shooting my reloads.
The rifle was a hell of a deal considering I paid $535 shipped for the entire rifle and am running a 15 dollar pawn shop scope on it. I am saving up for a nicer scope.... I will also be removing the A2 front sight and free float it eventually...
As long as it will consistently shoot 1 MOA with handloads I will leave the Palmetto barrel on it. If it won't, I'll put something nicer on eventually as well.
I was seriously considering one of those PA10's. I'm glad to hear yours is shooting pretty well! You just can't beat the price.
Johnny's Reloading Bench Yeah I was a little worried after some of the reviews but it seems great for the money.
Toolness1 hows it holding up pops and i got one they shoot pretty good. We just cut the sight off the front and have it a raddle can cammo job
You essentially duplicated my findings with the 4064/SMK.
With the same charge weights, our velocity/SD were within 1% of each other. I matched the velocity you are looking for with 43gr of powder @2585fps.
I think the CCI 200 primers are fine, however using Federal #210M primers might give you better results, which are the primers used in the Feral factory loads. Also if you start using the IMI brass, which I believe is thicker, I think hitting the high mark may become difficult for you. Great vid as always, keep it up.
My suggestion is stick with Lapua and repeat one or two or three groups of your best result(s) in this video for conformation of a valid benchmark and then compare them against any new loadings you may choose. I value your choices of test loads and testing but also think 5 samples are kinda on the small size to draw big conclusions from. Best to you in future testing and as always look forward to your videos.
John
60k jump is pretty good. Sierra bullets like some jump. Bergers like to be closer.
I think the ejecter marks is from the squared off ejecter pin maybe chuck it up in a drill and polish the edge's up it will reduce the severity
Finally! I was about to email you and make sure you didn't blow your face off. :)
I've been meaning to email you as well. I need to get your receiver lapping tool in the mail. Sorry for the delay and thanks again for loaning it!
No rush. I dont plan on building another AR10... Ever. :)
After building my Defiance/AICS chassis/Bartlein barrel, I have a hard time going back to my M5E1. It is fun hitting the gong enough times in a row with a 20 round magazine to flip it off the chains though :D
Johnny's Reloading Bench
Check this out. It might keep the goobers from complaining about the magnetospeed!!
www.wiserprecision.com/
Really random but I've been watching all of your series what rcbs press is that
EWA-- Agree one thing push the velocity to 2710fps,it’s a sub ,.5 usually much better.
I used the IMI Match Brass MILSPEC smaller case capacity but the 42.2 w/ F210GM primers is a hell of a round with Sierra 175’s,.@2.810 oal.
Shout sub .250 @500yds out of a bolt gun,26 Hart tube.
I prefer the 5R barrels over all others.SS.
I like the new direction. Very interesting!
In my LaRue (which has a tight chamber) I tested a bunch of recipes and found that with Lapua brass the 42gr of 4064 was boarder line hot but really accurate. Also CCI #200 but using the Nosler 175 CC. BTO 2.210 ... COAL 2.810 (mag length for my Magpul mags)
I don't have a larue, but I have the same bbl they use. I found the same thing.
I have some 168 ELD’s and 178 ELDX’s loaded with 8202 XBR for about a month now. I have not been able to get to the range due to work. What LaRue do you have? Mine is a 20” OBR. Love my 2 LaRue’s.
I don’t have one...I’m not in the club. But I called Lothar Walther and sourced a 20 inch bbl from them. I was cautious to say it was the same but EVERYTHING people write about this bbl/rifle is the same.
Ryan Brady I have heard the same before LaRue started making their own barrels ... Took them a while but they got it right. The LW were great
Christian Mire I have the 18" OBR ... I love it. Worth the money? I don't think about it ... I just love it :)
I know this is an old video but have you tried playing with the new staball match powder ? Hodgdon is the only place I can find load data on the 175 SMK for staball match . Max says 46 gr . I started a little on the low side 44 gr avg 2572 14/36 … 44.3 gr 2571 21/53…44.6 gr 2584. 17/46…. 44.9 gr 2626 19/46 and 45.2 gr 2619. 13/35…. All groups were blah at 1-1.4 … good velocity. I’m gonna try again but start at 45.4 in 2/10ths increments up to 46.6 and watch for pressure as I creep over the max of 46gr . Hoping the groups will tighten up. Starline brass. Also this is out of a AR 308 centurion MK11 receiver set, BA 20” premium barrel. I’ve also had finicky gas ADJ gas block running suppressed with a sandman S . Functions beautifully when not suppressed.
My JP hp bolt produces the same flat primers. I think it’s the nature of the beast.
I actually saw a delivery slip for the federal gold medal match when I was in the military......the recipe? Fed brass, 175 gr smk, 41.745 gr of imr 4064.....I run CCI primers. That's what I load, with excellent results !
that's almost what I got when trying to work up a reload. 41.75 imr4064, Fed brass, Fed 210, 175smk. paid very close attention to the pockets and primer holes. but mine like almost no jump and to long for the mag so i single feed. well under 1moa @ 200yds.
If you follow the OCW method and Dan Newberry, Your accuracy at 40.8 and 42 with low SD and ES falls right in with what he says. If 40.8 is an OCW (optimal charge weight), then the next node would be 3% higher in charge, or 42.024 with a scatter node at 41.4 which we can see that 41.2 and 41.8 spread out with both suppressed and unsuppressed. I think you are looking good at 42.0 or maybe even 42.2 which is close to the factory load. I would bet 42.2 would be center of the node and 42.0 and 42.4 brackets the node. Just my two cents, but I am no professional lol.
Measure the volume difference between the two brands of brass. If they're pretty close to the same, shoot the Lapua until they die. If there's a significant difference, go with the IWI, because you're going to have to start over soon anyway.
Evening buddy from England. I was thinking, with the sub on it would not work right, an start to open an i was right. So all the times I've been learning. "pats myself on back 😁". Thanks for sharing as it's been very helpful as I don't reload yet. Can't wait to start doing it. Haven't got any of the kit yet. But seeing utube an leaning all the time. ATVB Andy
I enjoy all the videos. That being said for all the money spent on this gun the groups are anything but impressive.
I'm not exactly doing cartwheels around my neighborhood, either. Hopefully things improve quickly.
It’s troubling that the suppressor pressure is starting to tear up the brass. You might consider a adjustable gas key on the bolt, I’ve been considering one for my AR-15 300 AAC pistol length gas system. Looks like you can get a much finer adjustment.
Hey brother, whats the status with the .308 loads? Its been a while. I really want to see if that JP barrel can do better!
Love how you say the IMI brass is good looking. Not that it matters how it looks, it's how it shoots that counts. That said I agree and I have been known to polish all of my match loads. Sick right. LOL.
I apologize to no one for my love of shiny brass and tight, smooth primer pockets.
hey johnny love your videos very informative thank you...hey just build an ar 10 (308 ) 18" carbon fiber barrel light titanium bolt so i need some reloads 308 a lot ...
The gold medal match 175s shoot SOOOOO well in my hawkeye long range. Definately want to clone it.
The suppressor tends to reduce the harmonics of a barrel
I expect you will keep getting groups like the ones you've seen no matter what you try JRB. That was the issue I had with my 2 JP barrels, it would tease me with fluke groups randomly but on average, grouped between 1.0-1.5" with whatever I tried.
Edit: there was zero consistency in them for tight groups. They always had me chasing.
Edit 2: My krieger barrels will always shoot 42.5gr of 4064 with 168-190gr bullets into .5-.75" groups every time no matter what.
Yup, that's what I'm afraid of. If you were right all along I'll be pissed!
Johnny's Reloading Bench I HOPE that your barrel isn't like that, just letting you know my experiences is all. Did you see link I sent in other chat??
www.wiserprecision.com/
I have the exact same gun and I had the exact same issues with an adjustable gas block. I finally changed it to non-adjustable and at least if fires now. So upsetting.....
It doesn't surprise me that the factory power looks like IMR 4064 because that's what M118 has been loaded with for many years.
I think for best velocity however you should try the old fallback, RL17.
44.1gr varget under a 175smk in RP or Winchester brass (more case capacity) and cheap S&B primer... Ca$h...
Howdy Johnny. Liking the vids. Your very in-depth but not in a boring way. Learn alot just from watching... Thank you! I can see you get alot of comments, and reply to alot of them too. I imagine that takes up alot of time, so no worries if u dont get to answering this, but I still want to ask. Im hoping you can tell me the model\brand of bipod you have on your M5E1 setup? It reminds me of a versapod but looks a bit different. Thx again. Cheers, Josh
It is a GG&G XDS-2. amzn.to/2LTk6Zt I don't know anything about bipods but this one has served me well.
OK, thx for the info. I've never seen that one but I like it's design. I appreciate the reply!
Two avenues. Increase the powder charge to 42.3 and 42.6 and keep the 42.0. Second is to adjust jump in .015 increments. Don’t worry about feeding it through the mag, just find the jump to get the best accuracy. I also recommended sticking with Lapua brass, but, you might consider getting it annealed. Third, try Win primers.
You might want to switch from the CCI primers to the Federal primers like the factory ammo had. Any thoughts on that??
Federal match primers.
Extremely well done
You should be measuring your overall length of your cartridge from the ogive of the bullet not the tip. After watching your complete video I suggest that where your factory ammo shot better groups than your handloads, you may want to consider measuring your overall length from the ogive because that's probably what the factory did, and experiment with different bullet seating depth from jump to just touch to jam before you start fooling around with powder charges. As a benchrester, we always start with bullet depth before experimenting with charges to see what bullet depth a particular Barrel likes. Once we get a tight group then we start fooling around with the Chargers to determine what that does to improve the group. After that it's back and forth tweaking both the bullet seating depth and the charges till we get what we're aiming for.
Yes Reloader or Alliant lost the contract to Federal because of Afghanistan load temp problems . Now they have introduced RL 15.5 to fix that problem.
Let’s see some varget run though that barrel!
That's definitely on the short list. We'll be burning a whole lot of Varget in this gun eventually!
The difference between Varget and IMR 4064 is according to IDI Australian Defense Industry that manufactures the AR series of smokeless powders which are the exact same smokeless powders that Hodgdon sells is around 5% . Varget is AR2208 You will find this information on powder equivalents at ADI-powders.com.au
Johnny, I love your methodology; just curious how your results would be if you were shooting a good grade bolt gun. Last Friday afternoon, prior to working an abatement project, I shot a .310 with 150 gr. Nolser Accubonds stacked on 47.5 grains of Varget, which is routine. The rifle will shoot in the .100’s with quality Bergers. I moved away from 4064 about ten years ago because Varget was better and more temperature stable. Keep up the great work.
Have you used acurate4064 to substitute for imr4064
What was the previous barrel you had on? I currently have an M5E1 with a Ballistic Advantage 20" Bull Barrel and an Aero Precision BCG. I've been struggling to get the gun sub-moa. I find that at 100 yards I can usually shoot 3/4 moa groups but once I get out to 200+ yards it's an MOA or just over MOA shooter. I'm certainly capable of better shooting. With 3 of my other rifles I consistently shoot 1/2 MOA so I'm wondering if the 308 Ballistic Advantage barrels are just finicky.
FGM 308 Win is like the military load
It’s a low node load not a High node load.
Yes 41.8 for 175 and 42.8 for 168 MK
My high node lode is 44.5 of IMR 4064 for both bullets and WW brass with Fed 210m
nice, looks like a lot of potential in this one!.
I had imi match brass it wasn't good for me it was heavier than lake city. I found Winchester was the best for me easier to resize. Imi was good for reduced loads to manage recoil
One more lapua and increase weights!!! Great stuff man, always look forward to the new videos. One complaint can you screw your mag release button a bit more, just been bugging me since the 308 lower build video lol.
lol I'll try and do a close up in the next video. It is never going to be flush like an AR-15...there's just not enough threads.
Ok , I have a question , and you're smart . Although I'm not new to hand loading , I have never loaded military brass , and I have aquired quite a few peices . I know the walls are thicker and will cause less capacity and preaures will be higher , Do I need to use reduced charges , or is common loading manual data good to go ? This will be for a 308 bolt gun , and 5.56 in an AR , of course . Any light you could shine would be great .