The Chaos of the Pre-Born | Ancestral Possession | Dune Lore
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- A breakdown of the concept of genetic memory as it is presented in Frank Herbert’s legendarium, how the terrible curse of ancestral possession occurs and how it can be avoided. Spoiler warning if you are unfamiliar with Frank Herbert’s Dune series.
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well done!!
Alia's story haunts me. She was abandoned by her loved ones when she needed them to protect her. Terrible mother and terrible brother
Bad family
Is not that Paul didn't care for Alia, he had the weight of the whole Emperium on his shoulders, plus all of humanity. Remember, this was thrusted upon him, forced on him, and not only did he looked for revenge on those that hurt his House and Family, but also he was fighting the control the Bene Gesserits wanted of him.
This was the same with Leto II (III) they wanted to control a Kwizats Haderach, no matter who he was, Paul or Leto II, and they both defied them. Alia though, was indeed Jessica's responsibility, and she was the one that failed Alia, because she fled to Caladan when Alia grew. Jessica confessed too late that her fear of Alia, he fear of Abomination was what made her run away. Jessica failed Alia, and Paul was busy looking for a way to stop the horrendous Galactic Genocide being done under his name and banner, plus trying to find a way to avoid human extinction. Yet, Muad'Dib too became afraid of what he needed to do, to lose his humanity both internally and physically. Hence this was passed onto the twins and eventually to Leto II.
At least her nephew was totally normal
*Sees Leto II*
"Dear Lord..."
I never did understand why Jessica (or Paul for that matter) never did more to try and save Alia from Abomination.
The biggest reason I ever came up with was Frank being unable to actually think how though he did manage it with Leo II but that was internal
Alia's salvation was not part of the storyline
Frank wrote for her.
Just a story, after all
Jessica just wanted off Arakis, and Paul, well... He wasn't in a position to help anyone once Chani was unalived...
Paul was trapped in a future he couldn't deviate from. Whenever he started to look down the Golden Path he had to disengage. He never seen how to save her.
I guess he wanted to write about parental abandonment. Too many parents do it for many different reasons. Some women aren't fit to be mothers. Paul had his affairs... that's how families work.
Alia is my favourite character in the entire series.
Tragic, complex, and ultimately one of the few truly good people.
Nerd cookies, breakfast of champions.
So, in a way, Alia saved the twins, by showing that resistance was NOT the was to survive being preborn.🧐
You would think Jessica knew about the abomination that could have taken place when she drank the water of life and basically assimilated all of Reverend Mother Ramallo's memory's while pregnant with Alia. She would have trained her at a way early age to be able to deal with it. And Jessica wasn't raise by Baron Harkonnen he would have shipped her off to the Bene Gesserit early in her life of course this is how I see it should have taken place can't remember what the books say been so long since I have read them I'm due. Another thought provoking topic Keep up the great delves into the lore keeps my mind active as it does many others
Wow! The depth Nerd Cookies goes to in explaining the Pre-Born doesn't surprise me, but I am surprised there is so much to be seen in examining Pre-Born in the Dune legendarium!
Interesting topic, thanks!
Thanks for the support!!!
Absolutely LOVE these videos Nerd cookies!!! The lore of Dune is one of the things that drew me so deeply into Dune so many years ago now and your discussions of dune (and other IPS) lore is always fair, even and insightful. Sadly that is not commonplace at all, and I appreciate your videos all the more for it. Thanks as always for the work you do!! Of all the "gifts" of the spice prescience and genetic memory are both the most fascinating and most terrifying to me. I was heartbroken the first time I read the series with the fate of Alia, though not as heartbroken as i was by Paul's understanding and knowledge of Chani's fate and how he had to face ot alone and in silence .
Great video. As always. Thanks. One wonders about the messy incidents that made the Bene Gesserit discover these problems, and establish their policy of dealing with it. Probably darkly amusing. I remember watching the Sci Fi channel version of Children of Dune, and feeling sorry for Alia. She got screwed.
Yay!!! Lunchtime dune Cookies!!!
But I always found a big flaw in that other memories concept : they stop in the very moment the Next generation is born, so a major piece of information is always lost
The majority of wisdom and experience would be lost, I think. The young are prone to impulsive and foolish decisions.
It always struck me as strange that it was the Baron who possessed her as the male line of ancestral memory was closed to the Bene Gesserit.
Yet she feared Baron the most. Good point sir. I always though this as pre-born thing, that Alia had also male ancestors in her mind.
Then she was Atreides after the Paul became Kwizatz haderach, IIRC it was implied that all his children has "full access".
What went came around went around, when Alia possessed the ghola Baron’s mind.
She was almost the Bene Gesserit Messiah, except female. Same bloodline, same parents as Paul.
Cookies you never ever disappoint when it comes to Dune. My Arakis, my desert, MY DUNE. 🤙🏾✌🏾😃😁
Sounds like a form of schizophrenia/split personality
The idea of a genetic memory is a fascinating one. I do find myself wondering, if it was a thing irl, how would it work?
Genes activating and deactivating to change your brain physiology and personality. It happens irl when we are injured, starving, freezing, sick, exhausted or in extreme mental states, different genes become active and subtly change who we are and how we function, "remembering" and enacting an inherited memory - all genes are ultimately a form of information storage/memory.
Here is something to consider... A genetic memory would only exist up to the time that the fetus was made. No further information from the parents would be passed along. Meaning that statistically only a quarter of their memory is would actually be passed along. Imagine someone with thousands of generations of horny teenagers Rather than the same number of people with mature wisdom passing through their skulls... Personally I don't think it sounds like that much fun.
@@Deridus Considering the average life expectancy was 35 years for most of human history, that's not nearly as bad as you make it sound.
More about Alía.
(:
Any ideas who's playing Alia Atraties in the new Dune movie?
One actress I think would be good is the girl who played Trudy on Once Upon A Time In Hollywood. She seemed to carry that old soul persona that to an extent was present in Alia.
As always, great understanding and explanations on the DUNE saga.
One small correction though, it was not Leto II that reprimanded the Persona of Chani from taking possession of Ghannima, but in fact it was the Persona of Paul Muad'Dib within Leto II that scolded Chani to release their daughter.
Muad'Dib not only lived within Leto II (III) he also lived within his daughter Ghannima, but indeed, The Chani persona became Ghannima's guardian within against any other Genetic Memory or Persona from possessing her daughter.
These Dune videos are interesting. Keep up the great work!
Perfect video to watch when I’m just about to finish Messiah 💚
Fascinating. I learn so much about these characters from you. Thanks Elaine.
Did Paul get ancestral memories by drinking the water of life like Jessica? Was he not mentally prepared then and so he risked being overtaken?
How did his twins get that access? Certainly not preborn like Alia, unless Chani took the water of life while pregnant? Or did the massive amount of spice ingested to counteract the birth control drug cause that somehow?
Thank you for your wonderful insight and knowledge, always excited for your Dune video’s
Ok I'm a little confused. Bene Gesserit, being female, are supposedly unable to access their genetic memories from their male ancestors, thus the need for a Kwizatz Haderach, a male BG. So why does Alia, also a female, have access to a male genetic memory/ego in Vladimir?
She doesn't access the male memories. The male memories accessed her. The BG merely fear to look to the male side. It's not that they can't look at the male, their primal fear prevents it.
@@NerdCookies also being the sister of the Bene Gesserit Messiah means that she would likely have exceptional qualities and vulnerabilities beyond the norm as well.
Our days are always nerdier with you in them! Thanks for the hard work and thanks for sharing. :)
I have to reread Children of Dune, but I've long had a niggling doubt about Alia's story - and, for that matter, the entire idea of a "genetic memory"...
For Alia, I find myself wondering: if the Bene Gesserit could not access the ancestral memories on their paternal line, how is it that her grandfather could barge into and take over her mind (as he does in the story)?
As for the entire idea of a "genetic memory", this strains credulity - even by the standards of a sci-fi universe - since all actors in it are still "human" (however more evolved a thousand or so generations from today).
Just from a physics perspective, the idea that somehow all the information contained in tens or hundreds of thousands of ancestral lives (if not more if you trace back into pre-human ancestry) could be stored in our current configuration of DNA strands on even a Y chromosome, let alone a tiny X chromosome (even in the so-called "junk" sections they may contain that don't seem to code for anything) seems crazily far-fetched to me...
When I first read the Dune series I did a little digging into the genetic/race memory idea. There were numerous scientists that believed that memory could be passed down to progeny, though the exact mechanism was unknown, possibly through the genes.
I don't find it that big of a stretch to consider ancestral memory, having a "spice" turn humans into a fish-like being that can fold space is a slightly bigger ask for me...🤔
My biggest beef with the idea of genetic memory is that it would only pass along knowledge from the parents up to the point of conception. Even though it is known as the geriatric spice, This does not mean that the ability to have children at least on the female side is going to be prolonged. This means that statistically most people would only pass along memories up to their mid thirties at latest. That allows decades worth of wisdom and knowledge and experience to be completely lost per generation. This would also mean that many generations would be only up to until say a horny teenager. Certainly not a lot of wisdom to be gained there.
This also brings up one of my biggest questions about the God emperor, did leto's lives end with Paul and Chani or does he have an image of Ghanima and her descendants?
Lunch with nerd cookies !
Maybe that's why mental health issues aren't taken seriously as they should .
I'd argue in the past decade or so, mental health issues are taken with the most seriousness.
So James McAvoy from split and glass played as two different characters that have to grapple with other egos with his mind? Let's hope that Leto the second doesn't have the beast in him..... oh wait ,God emperor totally would be on board with what the beast goes on about ,struggle and strife strengthening humanity.
To me, I chose to believe the momories reside in a realm where the conciouses never die but can speak to those they descend from if the descendent has the conciouse opening awakening the water of life gives.
Sounds like the Warp from Warhammer...
@@Deridus YEP shamanism in a higher place with copium amounts of drugs
So being preborn is a lot like being a jinchuriki nobody thought it could end well until eventually someone made it work
Yay cookies today.
I have a question: is the idea of genetic memory and other memory in Dune in anyway connected to Carl Jung’s idea of a collective unconscious in psychology?
Yes definitely it's called the akashic record. The collective memories and egos of our human ancestors also of the earth. Jung called the ego his shadow and if you keep feeding that ego like Alia did with her grandfather of even that of her own. It corrupted her true self that self that we protect with our ego self. There is no balance. The akashic record can be unlocked in human beings thru meditation, psychedelics and things like that
It would not surprise me that has a more political undertone.
@@merrickc.155 Didn't Edgar Cayce make use of the akashic record also?
@@hayorge27 yes thru his mediumship and clairvoyant sessions he is said to have tapped into the akashic records and he said he gave many readings and was used to channel other entities from the past and future but also present day aliens on other planets
Preborn and abomination is a distinction without a difference... Change my mind.
Ohhh shit! New Nerd Cookies!
I've been meaning to ask, is this the inspiration of Animus and the Bleeding Effect from Assassin's Creed franchise?
The idea of ancestral possession in a way explains the curse of Schizophrenia. I was born schizophrenic and as such I understand the idea of being possessed with other lives and memories. When a person is diagnosed as having schizophrenia; the natural response is to ask, will I ever be normal? It's taken me years to learn that if I listen to my inner voices; one can reasonably learn to drown out the voices and actually learn to co-exist with them. As such, I understand how it was that Alia couldn't learn to co-exist with the past lives and became consumed by the ego of her Grandfather Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. While I feel some pity for Alia, each schizophrenic has to learn to master control over their past lives inside their own head. Another problem experienced by Alia was her constant dependence of consuming larger and larger quantities of Spice Mélange in order to gain access to more of her genetic memories. Most schizophrenic don't have access to Spice Mélange as even I can't access my ancestral memories. The memories I encountered; are the people that I encountered as my ego developed; as such, the people in my past only wanted me to grow up and be a happier, more content person. So, I understand why Paul felt trapped by the Golden Path. Paul: after taking the Water of Life, learned how to navigate his male ancestor's memories and thus became a male Bene Gesserit, but unlike most of the later Atreides. Paul refused to share his gifts and serve the Bene Gesserit sisterhood. Thus, Paul made his own decision to live out his brief life seeking a way to help his children avoid the fate of Alia, their Aunt. All people who develop schizophrenia; need to develop their own personality, while learning to coexist with other voices that seek domination of the host personality.
Take those meds pls
Just imagine to be able to to talk with a deceased family member..
Imagine how awkward it would be if you happened to be responsible for some of their deaths.
@@randomcenturion7264
Well we saw that in children of dune with alia
Over the last 20 years of my life, I've learnt to listen to our voice/s. Usually, they will tell you things you don't want to hear.
Is it worth it? Given that we are here for a finite time?
I think so.
James McAvoy was sooo cute back when he did these movies!
Thanks elaine
If the memories are passed down through genes, then wouldn't they lose half of them with each successive generation? For example, Ghanima would only have 1/8 of Baron Harkonnen's genes, but half of Chani's. Also, does it only include memories up to the point of conception?
It still grates! By the rules of the universe, Alia should not have access to the male line's memories. Just the female's. If they could access the male memories, there would have been no need for the Kwizach haderach.
I've been trying to square the peg to fit the hole, since i read the books. it does not fit.
Frank screwed up there.
Memory is one thing, belief is another. Alia was doomed from the start. Her inner voices could not help her resist, they were Bene Gesserit. They shared the Sisterhood's beliefs. Poor Alia could not fight what her own memories told her MUST happen.
She MUST fall into abomination, the Sisterhood cannot be wrong. one life is insignificant, the end goal is what matters.
Pseudo religious mumbo jumbo.
Ganima and LetoII were born fallen. That is what saved them. As they grew older taking in new experiences, they shaped a core personality that was uniquely them. Part individual experiences part inherited traits, part ancestral memories.
They did not escape abomination, they out grew it. They suppressed the voices in their heads, because they had nothing that fit their environment. Nothing that helped them survive.
The "Guardians" were a psychological construct,a crutch that was not needed.
It could be that accessing the male memory is only possible to the pre-born , leading invariably to madness and possession for women. Leto, as a male, probably was fundamentally different and had options unavailable to Alia.
Alia is preborn, it means she has both lines of memories. She cant handle them, tho.
I always found concept of genetically apssed memories intriguing. Be it in Dune or other media. It is fun device to explore and use in stories but scientifically at least in case of humans it is highly problematic. Our DNA structure simply do not provide data storage capicity capable of storing even single human conciousness not to mention tens of thousands. Only way around I could think about would be encoding data on subatomic level of DNA strand, that is somehow also copied in the process of procreation and growth (not sure how it could be achieved). Issue would be recovering this data as human brain works on scale much MUCH bigger than subatomic. There is aditional issue of human brain being dynamic system of interconected living tissue and electrochemical proceses between them, that is excidingly hard to record in its entiret, It is much easier in case of aliens where we can just assuume their DNA is much more complicated or has totally diferent, much bigger structure enabling them to store nececary amount of data or brains that store memories in some easy to acess liner fashion.
A few errors in your assumptions: 1) Information isn't just stored in DNA in the strict sequence of bases, there are numerous modulating factors (gene activity/inactivity, RNA silencing, alternative splicing, post-translational modification, etc etc) allowing astronomical numbers of gene product from any one gene.
2) DNA is not static. DNA is highly reactive and dynamic to changing circumstances, interacting with itself and the DNA of other cells via signalling molecules. The amount of information in those interactions can only be estimated, but it results in the most complex structures in the known universe. Ever wondered how one cells knows to become liver while another knows to become brain despite both having identical DNA? This is that.
3) We do not have one molecule of DNA, we have trillions. Combine that with 2).
4) There is an entire another layer of code how DNA is activated/deactivated, adding even more complexity = information states. The field of epigenetics is still in its infancy.
“Encoding data in the sub or atomic level of DNA” yes, it is called “modifications” many molecules bind to DNA to change its fate.
@@di3486 Even more modifications for the gene products made from the DNA. It is wild.
@@abelbabel8484 Yup
Does an ancestor have to be dead to become part of genetic memory? One's ancestors start with their parents. Also if a living person's genetic memory can be retrieved, is it only up to the point where the pre born was actually born, or can they also access memories being made in real time?
Honestly, even over the FTL technology that they had, I think 'genetic memory' is probably the single weakest science ficton basis element of Herberts work. It made absolutely no sense and was always a 'black magic' I intentionally ignored because I knew analysis of it would make me cranky :)
Was Dax from Deep Space 9, based on the Pre-Born of The Dune saga?
There's a couple of thing that have always confused/annoyed me both about the idea of Genetic Memory and about it's working out.
Let's just take the Idea - if one is talking just Personalities, then that's one possibly believable part. However, when we talk about Memories , it seems that one is going a little far - FOR INSTANCE, Jessica was sired by Vladimir Harkonen, when he was a relatively young man - so HOW could Alia have access to his Mature memories?
Or just to take Alia as a curious example of the "Working out" of these Genetic Memories. I was under the impression that the whole purpose of the Kwisatz Haderach programme was because Women couldn't access the memories of Male ancestors - yet it is Alia's MALE grandfather who becomes her greatest internal nemesis? Is that an enormous plothole, or am I missing something here?
Ah.. Dune. George Lucas stole so much from Dune to make his juvenile copy of "Star Wars", and now his creation is dying in the hands of the lesser minds he sold it to, and Dune is rising in its unaltered, still brilliant, state instead. Fitting that Herbert's original creation stands the test of time as well as the God Emperor...
Sounds like... instincts.
This is so interesting
Frank Herbert really did give too much credit to the mind for being able to just "man harder" and overcome literally any obstacle. Disarming a poison just by thinking about it? Come on, if that were possible it would've evolved already, somewhere in the animal kingdom.
Well, honey-badgers evolved an immunity to snake venom. Not sure how much they had to think about it, lol.
If you can't suspend your disbelief enough to fathom a creature being able to disable poison 10,000 years from now, then maybe science fiction isn't really your genre
Ancestral Possession
How could they expand on this in the movies?
watching this makes me realize for the first time was a horrible injustice was done to Alia: she deserved better
Dig your music
It confuses me how Alia had the barons psyche but bg couldn’t access male memories
Its a plot hole
@@cameronmccoy5051 It's seems to me that they have access, but have an instinctive and extremely reasonable fear of wading into the waters of the minds of men in their genetic history. Paul speaks to Mohiam of the place she 'dare' not look. Dare implies capability.
Problem: I thought that the bene geseret have only access to the women-memories. and alia had de-facto a bene-geseret procedure done to her why she was a fetus. there seems to be a logical contradiction within the story since she could have only be posessed by women ancestors.
They all technically have access to male memories they just have a primal fear to look there. Alia is overtaken by those male memories, she doesn't access them, they access her.
I think Jessica selfishness is a tragedy. Alia never had a chance throughout here trails of becoming possessed.
I have passed life and ancestors memory. There was a type of tharpy that hippies started in the 70's, maybe that's were the DUNE ideas come from. Was FRANK secretly a HIPPIE?
Past life regression was a thing long before the unwashed youth of America started trying to reach a higher plane via pharmaceuticals.