Would you like to see an infinite paragon system in Diablo 4? Let me know in the comments! Blogpost: news.blizzard.com/en-us/diablo4/24096025/prepare-to-embody-the-spiritborn-pre-purchase-vessel-of-hatred VoH Video: ua-cam.com/video/RtTrYzqLK9w/v-deo.html Wowhead: www.wowhead.com/diablo-4/news/new-paragon-and-skill-point-changes-possibly-coming-in-diablo-4-vessel-of-hatred-345296 Timestamps 00:00 Intro 02:28 Casual Player Gap 06:50 My Feedback & Ideas
I really hope they dont do infinite and actually dont even believe they will cause they want that the game is for everybody and there isnt too much of a cap between pros and casuals atleast with same build.
I would like to see more rewards for time invested. Infinite paragon levels would be interesting to see. I think it would give more of a reason to play more. Hitting level 100 and having nothing else to do is a let down. I personally liked Infinite paragon levels, but I also loved Diablo 3, I one hundred percented Diablo 3.
They don’t need to change anything, just need to add more skills, more powers in the paragon boards, new boards.. No need for a new system and really no need for infinite paragon
especially considering your character starts over every few months. If you played a single character and new events were added and removed from the game every few months instead, having infinite paragon levels would be much more appealing. Sorta like in FO76.
No it is not stupid, it gives you a sence of progression even after you maxed out your points. I would love to see a it like it is now, at level 100 your points are maxed out but the paragon levels can still increase just for the seens of progression.
@@cryptonorris2214 everyone i know that plays each season, stops about mid way through because they realize their character is just going to be deleted to make room for the next season.
Endless paragon is stupid - because someone will always no-life more than you and score higher in leaderboards. This makes it all about time investment - not the skill. Only fraction of people even play enough to max out character with current posibilities.
Interesting insight, Rob! It is always nice to start a dialouge about potential new systems. I'm not sure where/how Bliz plans on balancing the current system, come Vessel of Hatred. As each region is netting 2 skill points (obviously from renown) as well as what i would presume is 4 paragon points, not game changing, but nice. Now i don't know the math on going from 58 to 69, with the renown accounting for 2 of those, within 10 "new levels" does that mean each level is only 1.1 skill points? As that's a difference of 9, not 10. Lol. (69-58= 11, 11-2 (Renown/region discovery = 9) But i digress. I would think that is a bigger gain than anything else right now. As well, we can probably presume there are going to be Lilith Statues, further padding our static stats. (Will Power, int, Strn, etc) What i find interesting, that no one has brought up, is accessibility. Let me explain; People like Rob, any and all popular D4 content creators, myself and a myriad of active players are going into Season six, excited for the new content. Okay. So only the people that pay, will have access to 69 skill points, 4 extra paragon & Lillith statues? Or is the bump to 50/69 BEFORE the regional + 2 skill points? Is this going to be a global/free for all, or exclusive to Vessel of Hatred thing? I am very curious how much content/updates/upgrades are actually going to be tied to V.o.H versus Global update/rebalance. Rob, i 100% agree with you; in no world should paragon be inf. As it is i'm curious about the paragon point pay out if we now have only 40 vs 50 levels to get the difference. Perhaps they can give a spark every 5-10 levels, after 100 or whatever the max is. Build in the Spark reward to the game, instead of a poorly thought out grind fest of new character creation. Give any & all players equal opportunity, regardless of RnG & time, to at least feasibly craft one Mythic a season. Or even a cache containing the precious angel's breath & bundles of sticks/herbs (whatever we use for Elixers & Incense) Or have it tiered; every 5 the resources, every 10 a spark. Anyway, these are just ideas. We can always have a 1% power/ x% damage increase every 10 levels. However every game that allows for out of hand power scaling always has issues (see Diablo 3) Sure, seasons do somewhat "limit" power creep, but it'll still allow for larger disparities than already exist. But let's face it people, Diablo 4 has two huge problems that have nothing to do with levels; #1:) Content. Immortal had the best amount of Diablo Content, hands down. D4 is pretty much a culmination of D3 & Immortal with a fraction of the content. Right now an end game player is either rushing a friend or random, grinding Blood Maiden for Blood/drops?, Doing 101 Pits or Torrment Ubers. That's it, that's the game. Why not have a time gated, meaningful seasonal quest line with global events/bosses and some puzzle solving. For the love of God, Destiny has been doing this for over a decade. Surly Blizzard can stop being so stingy with the content. (Yes i do realize Destiny2 has WAY more content that D1, but i digress. #2:) Balancing. Necros, Sorcs & ESPECIALLY Druids need to have the ability to equip a soure/totem/whatever you want to call it, in addition to a two handed, or dual wield set-up. There is absolutely ZERO coincidence that Rouges & Barbs are the strongest Characters: they get 3 & 4 slots for attack/life/stat & aspect stacking vs 1 or 2 of Necros, Sorcs & the poor Druids. Lastly, i am all for the "effort" made for some build variety. But for the love of god, does every metta HAVE to be a Basic or Core skill??? I love my Barbs, i absolutely love Bash and all. However i think it's only the Bleed Barbs pushing past 120 Pit, maybe some Rouges. Are there any Sorc builds doing 120+? Maybe 2-5 People have gotten a Necro past 121, and let's be real...Druids are so underpowered they struggle with 110+ solo, unless they have god-like RNG, triple perfect GA, Temps & Masterwork hits. Bottom line, Blizzard needs to pull their heads out of their asses and do something about the balance of int & will power toons. I know Spirit Born has to be O.P. for season 6. However that doesn't mean all Will Power/Int or whatever the main stats are, will be in the same or close place. So yeah. Blizzard, we love your game. Great systems, and all. Just give us more to do, and for the love of Iranius, give the bottom 3 an extra slot! Cheers all, see ya in Season 5. -DW
I think they're going for an EXPANDED, but not INFINITE paragon system. Adding more boards, and adding an according amount of points, but not to the point where you over-fill your boards and have no choice anymore. If so, I support this idea. Adds more depth to the longevity/power of your character without going too far.
The bigger issue they have, and why people want "infinite" paragon is hitting max level pretty early on and having XP go to waste. Even if it's purely cosmetic and gives no stats (which is what paragon was initially, I actually liked that era), having a use for XP just feels better. Also worth noting that while it is billed as "infinite", paragon in D3 in its final version wasn't really infinite either. It had set softcap points where leveling any further was almost impossible, and there came a point where it functionally became impossible, so most people just hit the softcap point, and that was where the stat gains were balanced around, something like 1200~ or a few weeks of play. Eventually hardcore players could get that down to a few days, but eh. Whatever. Personally I'd prefer a split between the XP not going to waste function and stat/paragon boards. Sure, let the massive stat gains stop at some point, but we should always have a fairly regular endorphin boost of gaining levels every few hours or days. Otherwise, what's the point of being able to clear the screen of hundreds of monsters at once or whatever?
This is the issue with the current paragon board: there are many options that will never be used. Users run straight to the glyph socket on almost every board, and the ones with no glyph socket are used for the legendary node. All these rare nodes will never be used, and legendary nodes will not be used in favor of getting a glyph on the board. The system is flawed and needs a rework. My guess is not an infinite system but streamlining the glyph socket/legendary node selections. A legendary node is no different than a legendary/unique affix. A glyph is a legendary aspect. The focus will be on glyph sockets and legendary nodes and removing all the filler. Adding more boards retains the choice aspect. All one is doing now is optimizing the paths through the boards. If those optimizations are cleaned up and made more concise, then the focus is on the glyph/legendary node element. Rare nodes could be inherent bonuses on the boards based on where they are placed in your paragon setup. A fun idea would be having the legendary nodes be class-specific legendary aspects. Turning the paragon boards into a piece of gear with restrictions similar to how aspects get put on types of gear, i.e., mobility, defensive, etc. This would increase build diversity significantly and allow for a more custom build. The boards would be defensive, mobility, offensive, etc., and the user can place a select set of legendary aspects on the board instead of gear. Only some of the aspects would be usable on the board, and there would be a few board-only aspects that couldn't be used on gear. Then, a limit can be placed on how many board types a player uses. This limit would ensure that no one can have five offensive boards. This system could also synergize with the classes and balance the problem of Barbarian having 4 (6, two are double) weapon slots by restricting offensive boards to the Barb and giving extra weapon boards to Sorc/Druid/Nec/Spiritborn. It is more complex than my example, but balance could be achieved in classes with certain advantages.
I know it may be an unpopular opinion, but I like Diablo3s grind. It feels good to keep killing monsters wayy after max level. The moment I hit 100 in D4, I get pretty bored. That being said, it doesn't need to tie into power. Just need something to keep grinding outside of loot drops. EDIT: Yeah, Diablo 2 is also a great example of ARPG leveling done right.
infinite paragon is exactly why i stop playing D3 i really enjoy the idea that there are the cap yet if there will be a cap within the board limit, its quite okay, as you can see the end of progression
You said it so well. I also always thought D2 had a perfect grind where you got 90% of your levels easily while the grind to 99 helped give small a goal to keep you motivated playing your character. I honestly lose all motivation to play my char in D4 when I hit 100
An infinite system would be awesome. I play Only One character. I don't play on the seasons much, that would be phenomenal for people that play on the eternal realm people like myself that only play 1 or 2 characters.
I really hope they dont do it. Just make the boards more fun and its a great paragon system. A few more points is fine, but infinite is soooo boring. I want them to remove additives or just give rare additives/extremely necessary ones and puts fun nodes. Move speed, atk speed, mastery skill size, core skill size, you would be able to chose what you want as temper and what you want from paragon. And make some new fun nodes that change the game somewhat. Imagine infinite progression and raids, good luck playing the game with such a gap between people
why not man ? i mean it would be nice for the game to recognise and reward its true loyal players who spend their entire time in the game ! like me ! and a lot of people like me ... I've been at it since the beta and no one could really know the difference between me and a new player , thats kinda sad man ... u feel me ? I'm down for infinite systems 100% we would feel our power growing and its FUN! Just why not ? as for the casual players : they could get help from the pro players more and trade or post for services , that would actually help the Trade website grow more and busier, and a job for us who are always playing and a point to keep going and growing our community.
I personally love the idea of the unlimited Paragon board. It makes the end game more interesting, allowing for continuous play and character improvement. Great idea!
My biggest issue with D4 right now is that there's a point where you can't really progress any further or earn any upgrades. D3 paragon system rewarded you for simply playing, even if you didn't find any good gear. Meanwhile in D4 I often skip mobs because: 1. I can't get any more xp 2. Uber uniques can't drop from them and I can't get any better legendaries/uniques Isn't that a situation we would like to avoid as much as possible?
Perhaps they could do some kind of "legacy paragon" system where those points are disables for all leaderboard activities? That would keep the continuous strengthening of the character while still maintaining the leaderboards meaning.
When I saw the new level display I just figured it meant they are separating levels in which you get skill points (1-50 currently and then 1-60 with the expansion) and then separately show paragon levels. But I don't think this, in any way, means that we will get infinite paragons. In fact, we may even still get the exact same amount we have now, which would make sense, as the extra levels from the expansion give us skill points and the paragon boards are balanced around the number of points we have (And yes, I know we get a new board, but we aren't using all boards atm either, it's just more choices imo).
Seasons need to be longer then 3 months, is sucks to get all your ubers over and over and over. just make he game ENJOYABLE, and make seasons 6 months. only streamers have literally all the time for gaming, blizz should not compare normal people with streamers.
I never understood why "seasons" games got so popular. You create a character knowing from day 1 that you will delete it in just a few months. Its far more engaging if you played a single character and new events (essentially seasons) are added and removed from the game every few months instead.
Maybe there could be also a combination of both ? Surely not so soon yet, but eventually for the future ? Let's say you get the 225 Glyphpoints (or more with new boards, legendary glyphs and notes) and after that something similar to D3 where you can push a mainstat, gold pickup radius, crit chance etc, maybe also that u can rise max resicap or a something crazy like higher chance to get a hand on some goblins.
I was also thinking it would be a balancing nightmare to allow infinite paragon points, but I do like the idea of maybe just 10 more levels for maybe an extra 10 paragon points total. Keep the pace of going from 1-100 the same, the same skill points and paragon points, but then going from 100-110 would take as long as leveling to 100 five times. You could naturally reach that relatively easy anyway, but it wouldn't make 90% of the player base think they HAVE to do that in order to compete because 10 more paragon points is nice, but not game breaking.
i think they just wanted to split Level and Paragon Level.. thats all. Its the opening to adding every year a bit of max lvl for annual expansion - 70 max lvl next year etc ( or maybe only 65)... and adding a limited paragon levels. It can be maybe 300 this year, but its way easier just to add another 50 paragaon levels to max, then explaining everybody that max lvl will be 115 oraz 126 or 140.
Infinite paragon should mean reworking more systems in the game. 1. Groups should not have an xp bonus over solo. Groups can already clear content faster and have more synergies available compared to solo. 2. A maximum number of paragon boards being utilized would need to be implemented. 3. Paragon xp should be extremely difficult to complete at the very high end (just like Rob says).
I really like that you can complete a character to a point and move on to another. I like doing multiple builds over a season rather than just perfecting one - I guess Eternal Realm play becomes a thing if its infinite? I liked season 4 a lot with the wolf rewards and lvls and all that.
Infinite paragon would be interesting if they retool it. Let's say hard cap X points like 100pts past lv 100. The infinite paragon points would be banked for other characters in the same account that would have access to a certain amount of excess paragon points. That way in the end, each character would have a maximum amount of paragon points like 200 total where 100 comes from the character lvling from 60 to 100 and the other from the excess paragon pts earned.
If they did infinte paragon.. they could make each additional node cost more points. Instead of 1 it cost maybe 5 paragon points but that could cause a major grind as well. And something to work towards
Exponentially required exp/level. At one point you get 5 dex after one day 2 days: another 5 dex 4 days: another 5 int 8 days: rare node 16 days: another 5 dex ... I do not think it's that bad. Maybe not 200% increase but this would limit those who do not sleep. And you have around 3 month seasons anyway. As long as most likely gear would benefit player more than exp.
This is a great move, and I wish it was coming in S5 as when the PTR was introduced, it did not look like a season worth playing. I know that changes are going to be imtroduced Aug 1st, but the changes have to be massive to get people to want to play like they did S4.
The problem isn't the leveling, it's the item drops. I have the same 5 pieces of gear that I had when I reached level 100 (that is 5 weeks ago). Have found nothing better, and when I do find something that might be slightly better it gets bricked in tempering or I have it storage trying to get the item to roll with the affix/master work to work with my build. I have spent so much time doing pits and helltides these past weeks with no results. My character has reached a max pit level (can't beat the next level). Only way for it to be stronger is to get gear with multiple greater affixes or roll better affixes in tempering. It's the same problem as previous seasons. There is nothing worse than bricking an item. There needs to be something in place to reset tempering.
I don’t want to have a new material to grind to reset tempering. Change the tempering system so I can select the affix and then RNG can be in the value of the affix. Never hard brick any item and still have something to chase through min max
They need to fix this system for sure. The chances of getting certain rolls is so bad too. They make it nearly impossible to roll passives for your builds on things like the amulet. I wish they'd also allow us to just reset 1 rank of masterworking, instead of having to start from the beginning again. I always get crits on the most worthless stat on gear, and constantly have to reset. They either need to give us more control on the enchants/tempering with better chances and more likely to roll things you have skills equipped for, or make better gear more common. I'm so sick of grinding for days to get a piece of good gear just for it to be ruined within 30 seconds.
I completely agree. My character has had the same items for the last few weeks. When I managed to find god tier GA items, I bricked them instantly. It's incredibly frustrating. There's too much RNG and not enough reward.
IMHO infinite paragon levels actually retain my game play. Every season I was challenged to see how high I could get in D3 grinding those points. Since the endgame is subpar, this would incentivize me to play longer. I reached 100 season 4 and became very disillusioned. Improving gear while gaining paragon always feels good to me. It kept me chasing for that perfect item.
the reason I like the infinite progression d3 has and want it infinite in d4 is because this to me is one ofthose games where you should be as strong as you choose to play and earn up to, if there is a limit to your strength it takes away from the experience for me. I wanna be able to earn power beyond others because I put in time to get that work done.
I don't bother about people who play a lot and how strong their characters are But I missed about feeling of progression in Diablo. When I reached max level I lose this feeling. They definitely should device some approach to preserve feeling of infinite progression
At this point in the season... I am stuck at trying to improve my build. I have gone from finding a new piece that improves my build every 4-6 hours of game time to finding one once a week of game play. (and I started the season way late). When I do get a piece that looks to improve my build I brick it 2/3 of the time. Meaning I could go several weeks with no improvement in my build. The contrast from that D3 where I could within a 4 hour game session: Have several pieces I could roll in Kanai's Cube, Level up my Legendary gems a few times and (if none of that worked) get a paragon level or two. Essentially, I ALWAYS felt I was making progress to make myself better so I could complete a higher GR. This loop felt satisfying and rewarding to me. I like an onward progression system that rewards continued play. I don't think just more paragon points is it. Some of the things on that board will NOT apply to my current build so what good will that do? Oh great I can put 1 point into say... more bleed damage but if I don't do bleed on my build.. so what? I would rather see more levels in glyphs... But yes... more rewards for more time in character is good, within reason. LOL
Infinite paragon would be a cool thing for hardcore, but for softcore, the only thing I'd like to see is more interesting movement through a board. Maybe a line where its half as long to get to something big (like a legendary) but you cant pick up rares or something.
I don't think infinite paragon makes sense for this game, they already have a hard enough time balancing game difficulty without introducing even more sources of power disparity. I would like some sort of long-term deterministic grind rather than just farming for GA items, cosmetic rewards would be good IMO
I'm worried that they're gonna totally up end the paragon system. In one way it could be good because 75% of the nodes and glyphs are useless atm. I'd just like to see them fix those nodes and glyphs instead of totally changing the system
I don’t know about infinite, but I would like to see more progression after 100. Maybe the shots start with more paragon but cap it at 500 for example.
You have to consider that you can make the paragon lvls XP exponential as well. Then basically nothing changes for the casual player. Only some hard core players would get more points out of it.
It seems cool but I need to fully see it before judging it. I just do not like how it seems a lot of things are turning into D3 stuff and I am not meaning the paragon system. But honestly I got way more faith and am excited after seeing Spiritborn and hearing the devs talk with Raxx and Wudi. Things I really want are some type of crafting system, testing the new uniques and a new skill for the existing classes in the expansion.
I think merge the two ideas ? Infinite paragon board though after the current total number of paragon points and experience scaling to get additional paragon points becomes insane? My only wonder is how does more paragon points make the game more fun though?
I wouldn’t freak out yet. I think it’s gonna be the same as now pretty much. The cap will be 60 and will get about the same amount of paragon points or a little more. They have to know most people don’t want infinite paragon, so I bet with feedback it’d change too
Limit the board amount and make the paragon points limitless. Say 5 boards and then efficiently fill them from the start and then max them out for committing to the same character for the length of the season! 👌👌
I do think they should increase the level cap on glyphs, itll give more reason to go NM.dungeon for longer. Right now, basically once youre done with upgrading your glyphs which maxes out fast then you have no reason ever to do NM dungeons.
That would be great. Grinding just for gear is not fun. Though I think it is more possible that at earlier levels we will get less paragon points and at later levels it will be more. This way mid game will become tougher.
I think we will be better off with double the number of paragon points since they’re capped at 200. that would allow more optimization, than just infinite.
I think it should be done to make it reachable for the players that play season...like dudes like you playing 8 hours a day in month for regular folk 2-3 months...to keep us going whole season...it's true that after reaching 100 lvl...you don't have much of a progress and trying to find item that just gives a few more stats is kinda...it is something that is not guaranteed which is good but you need some progress that is guaranteed cuz than you lose your interest if nothing makes your class better...
I’m all for an unlimited progression system, whether it’s something similar to D2 or something else. But D3 is simply not working, not unless they make you gain like 1% dmg per 1000 paragon (after paragon 1000). Not gaining any item/char upgrades during an entire session really kills my motivation. However, leveling and always gaining at least some experience seems to trick my brain. At least it worked in D2 and D3. What if paragon enabled you to level glyphs beyond level 21? Perhaps with some serious diminishing returns (i.e. not AoZ glyph). They could also enable some “rested” systems similar to WoW, where more casual players would gain more paragon exp for not being logged in 24/7.
wild idea here, if they want to implement infinite paragon how about you still have a fixed set of paragon points to allocate (current is 225 iirc) but you can now LEVEL UP each paragon node for a % increase of the node. And you cannot level the same node consecutively, you need to level up ALL 225 nodes before you can proceed to the next level. Thoughts?
It's a bad idea. Items won't matter until you filled all your paragon boards. Players will find out the best way to farm paragon points and only do that. And when we have full paragon boards, then we will farm for uniques and uber uniques. It's better when players have to make choices and everybody isn't playing the same build with the same gear. Like this season when you can play WW bleed dust devils without any uniques and uber uniques and speed farm pit 101 or do pit 130+. The fun is to farm for better items and not paragon points.
Making an infinte paragon board sounds not so good ... but they may do some other reward system where you can get more paragon points or skill points etc ...
Having a leveling system in which you have higher difficulty in the last 10 lvls in order to reach the max sounds really good! I remembered that in D2 and it was awesome. That can be a solution for D4, you dont need to invent the wheel if its already invented and its works great!!
Have they fixed hard bricking yet, that’s been my biggest pain point. No fun to grind for gear knowing it’s most likely going straight in the trash. Let me select the affix I want and place the RNG in the value of the roll. No hard bricking and there is still a min max chase. This is such an easy fix.
I actually like the infinite paragon system. It feels like you’re indefinitely being rewarded with power even after hitting max level. I always liked it in D3
I dont want infinite updrades to my character, outside of maybe finding better rolls on 900 ilvl gear. A character needs to have an endpoint. That is what makes D4 fun for me. I can jump in to start the season and finish it all out in like 3 to 4 weeks.
Infinite paragon or any currency, you can definitely collect w/o RNG if you do Pits forever and you can buy high gear from. I never got an uber or a 2 GA item in S4 as a new SSF player and will never get. No progression at all when playing. +5 mainstat feels good instead. in D3 1500 gons or the Guardian Set provided you with good defensive. I loved it as a fun casual noob. I need 3-4 month each season to reach 2k gons for my final leaderboard pushes at the end of season. it is a perfect system for me casual.
The problems: -alot of the nodes on the paragon boards will NEVER be taken because there is always a better node to take/path through, so why are they even there in the first place -some players would like to path to some of the paragon nodes because it would allow them to not rely so heavily on hitting certain values on gear (like resistances or just stacking dex as a barb for crit hit chance) but right now the solution is: find the optimal path through the boards for maxing DPS and don't use it to fix non-optimal gear and just drop/buy optimal gear. I mean "how dare you not having best in slot gear 2 days into a season, what are you, a cAsUaL?!?" -Some players have fun optimizing their boards but easily more than 90% of the players don't. they just pick whatever sounds good or follow a guide because they can't be bothered to even try, they can't even be bothered to think about how to rotate a board or in what order to pick them and every minute spend finding the 'the best' path is a minute wasted NOT PLAYING the game. -if you played 200 or more hours after reaching level 100 and you didn't find an item that is an upgrade then you have wasted 200+ hours. so 200+h with no progression. that just feels bad. the solution: allow us to grind enough paragon points to fill the entire boards, this way: -eventually every node will be taken and the game can be balanced on having a full paragon board and there will no longer be nodes that will never be taken. -you don't need to feel bad for picking paragon nodes that 'fix' your build because you know that you at some point will have both; nodes fixing your build AND the juicy ones that increase or even multiply your damage and your only trade off is the time it takes you to get to the really good nodes. -a player who doesn't like optimizing their boards but like to play alot can just ignore that aspect of the game, because at some point is doen't matter anymore if they pathed through their boards in an optimal way or not but players who enjoy doing that still get alot of early game power from doing that -playing many hours after reaching max level and a minimum of paragon point for a strong board but not getting an item upgrade no longer feels bad because at least you got some sweet additional paragon points that make you at least a tiny bit stronger. A good balance between guaranteed progression through time invested and potential progression through good item drops is alot better than just a purely RNG based progression.
When I get bored with a game, I get out cheat engine and wemod and all that and just get everything right away and mess around with the game. I want that for D4 after I've had my fun playing it normally. It's just fun to go extreme toward the end of season.
“Infinite” paragons but have experience required scale extremely high after say 200 points would be a good idea I think. So the experience required from paragon 200-201 would take as long as 190-200 and scale higher and higher as far as xp required. Would prevent things from getting too out of hand as far as character strength, but at least still give some incentive/satisfaction to playing once you’re max level
As a casual player, I don't mind the inf paragon points (in the season, so 3 months). I think the more you play the more powerful you shall become like in d3, not just how lucky you are with drops or how much gold you have to buy items and that is coming from a player that will never get all the way to the top but still find it more fun to getting rewarded each time your XP bar starts over again.
I think its more likely that paragon boards as they are will be included in the leveling system, and new paragon will be similar to d3 giving static stat increases above max level
REALY infinite Paragon Points are not "possible" in D4, you are capped at the Paragon Boards. Blizz said, they dont want "fullskilling" the Boards. But we can have all betwen 225-300, maybe 400 is "OK", i think, if we become more Boards and Glyphes and thats confirmed. And yes, the last part of Points ist hard to grind is a good thing i think too.
If you have a infinite paragon board. We will need monster to scale with it. Otherwise whats the point, we kill lvl 200 monsters with ease. When our characters are at peak.
The universally hated Diablo Immortal at least had an interesting solution to the infinite paragon problem. There was a server paragon level that increased by a fixed amount every day. If you were behind you got a catch-up xp bonus and if you were ahead you got an xp penalty. Not sure I would advocate such a system but D4 just bores me after hitting 100 and in D3 it was simply impossible to compete against 6k paragon seasonal players.
I think the more they remove players having to make some choices with their build the worse games get in general. Work on balancing choices not just removing them and adding endless progression until you unlock everything.
1. The infinite system wouldn't necessarily matter for seasonal characters as you shouldn't have access to your total pool. 2. Did anyone else notice the key word of Legendary Glyphs
You are assuming the paragon levels above 225 is easy to get... if they are the same xp requirement you are suggesting for 95-100, then they are exactly the same thing, just displayed differently.
lot of players leave D3 after infinite parangon update. Not immediatly for most but with time when they see they cannot compete anymore for top 10, top 100 or 500 depends on people because of gap of power. Same problem same effect in D4, i can call it. If infinite, reward as to be somehow skin, platine, horse speed, title, stash tab, small gold reduc to the merchand, but nothing scalling character power and stat.
I think having the last 5-10 paragon levels be a grind is aweseome. I often feel bad when I reach level 100 because I want to kill mobs, but there is no satisfying reason.
We should have a maximum point to put in paragon board. But after that, be able to upgrade the paragon board by litlle pourcentage step by step to infinite.
Would you like to see an infinite paragon system in Diablo 4? Let me know in the comments!
Blogpost: news.blizzard.com/en-us/diablo4/24096025/prepare-to-embody-the-spiritborn-pre-purchase-vessel-of-hatred
VoH Video: ua-cam.com/video/RtTrYzqLK9w/v-deo.html
Wowhead: www.wowhead.com/diablo-4/news/new-paragon-and-skill-point-changes-possibly-coming-in-diablo-4-vessel-of-hatred-345296
Timestamps
00:00 Intro
02:28 Casual Player Gap
06:50 My Feedback & Ideas
Hell no. Have they lewrn3d nothing from d3? D3 is capped now anyway
I really hope they dont do infinite and actually dont even believe they will cause they want that the game is for everybody and there isnt too much of a cap between pros and casuals atleast with same build.
Yes plz
I would like to see more rewards for time invested. Infinite paragon levels would be interesting to see. I think it would give more of a reason to play more. Hitting level 100 and having nothing else to do is a let down. I personally liked Infinite paragon levels, but I also loved Diablo 3, I one hundred percented Diablo 3.
Yes, it could be only reason why do the seasons. Because now is no motivation. Im two seasons in Eternal now and S5 will be the same.
October, guys. OCTOBER!!!
Less than 2.5 months 💯
Hell, im trying to get through the next 10 days to get to S5 let alone trying to start waiting for this expansion.
@@lawrencesullivan6950 I feel ya man. Atleast there's not long till 1.August, so we can start cooking builds :)
*raxx's voice* OCTOBER!
Yeah not soon
I didn't play D3 for a fews months and came back to find someone had hacked my account and I now had a ton of paragon points. Worked out great.
They don’t need to change anything, just need to add more skills, more powers in the paragon boards, new boards..
No need for a new system and really no need for infinite paragon
endless paragon point is stupid way progress you get stuck in same creep of power
especially considering your character starts over every few months. If you played a single character and new events were added and removed from the game every few months instead, having infinite paragon levels would be much more appealing. Sorta like in FO76.
No it is not stupid, it gives you a sence of progression even after you maxed out your points. I would love to see a it like it is now, at level 100 your points are maxed out but the paragon levels can still increase just for the seens of progression.
@@cryptonorris2214 everyone i know that plays each season, stops about mid way through because they realize their character is just going to be deleted to make room for the next season.
Endless paragon is stupid - because someone will always no-life more than you and score higher in leaderboards. This makes it all about time investment - not the skill. Only fraction of people even play enough to max out character with current posibilities.
Interesting insight, Rob!
It is always nice to start a dialouge about potential new systems.
I'm not sure where/how Bliz plans on balancing the current system, come Vessel of Hatred.
As each region is netting 2 skill points (obviously from renown) as well as what i would presume is 4 paragon points, not game changing, but nice.
Now i don't know the math on going from 58 to 69, with the renown accounting for 2 of those, within 10 "new levels" does that mean each level is only 1.1 skill points? As that's a difference of 9, not 10. Lol. (69-58= 11, 11-2 (Renown/region discovery = 9)
But i digress.
I would think that is a bigger gain than anything else right now. As well, we can probably presume there are going to be Lilith Statues, further padding our static stats. (Will Power, int, Strn, etc)
What i find interesting, that no one has brought up, is accessibility.
Let me explain; People like Rob, any and all popular D4 content creators, myself and a myriad of active players are going into Season six, excited for the new content. Okay. So only the people that pay, will have access to 69 skill points, 4 extra paragon & Lillith statues?
Or is the bump to 50/69 BEFORE the regional + 2 skill points? Is this going to be a global/free for all, or exclusive to Vessel of Hatred thing?
I am very curious how much content/updates/upgrades are actually going to be tied to V.o.H versus Global update/rebalance.
Rob, i 100% agree with you; in no world should paragon be inf. As it is i'm curious about the paragon point pay out if we now have only 40 vs 50 levels to get the difference.
Perhaps they can give a spark every 5-10 levels, after 100 or whatever the max is. Build in the Spark reward to the game, instead of a poorly thought out grind fest of new character creation. Give any & all players equal opportunity, regardless of RnG & time, to at least feasibly craft one Mythic a season.
Or even a cache containing the precious angel's breath & bundles of sticks/herbs (whatever we use for Elixers & Incense)
Or have it tiered; every 5 the resources, every 10 a spark.
Anyway, these are just ideas.
We can always have a 1% power/ x% damage increase every 10 levels. However every game that allows for out of hand power scaling always has issues (see Diablo 3)
Sure, seasons do somewhat "limit" power creep, but it'll still allow for larger disparities than already exist.
But let's face it people, Diablo 4 has two huge problems that have nothing to do with levels;
#1:) Content.
Immortal had the best amount of Diablo Content, hands down. D4 is pretty much a culmination of D3 & Immortal with a fraction of the content.
Right now an end game player is either rushing a friend or random, grinding Blood Maiden for Blood/drops?, Doing 101 Pits or Torrment Ubers. That's it, that's the game.
Why not have a time gated, meaningful seasonal quest line with global events/bosses and some puzzle solving. For the love of God, Destiny has been doing this for over a decade. Surly Blizzard can stop being so stingy with the content. (Yes i do realize Destiny2 has WAY more content that D1, but i digress.
#2:) Balancing.
Necros, Sorcs & ESPECIALLY Druids need to have the ability to equip a soure/totem/whatever you want to call it, in addition to a two handed, or dual wield set-up.
There is absolutely ZERO coincidence that Rouges & Barbs are the strongest Characters: they get 3 & 4 slots for attack/life/stat & aspect stacking vs 1 or 2 of Necros, Sorcs & the poor Druids.
Lastly, i am all for the "effort" made for some build variety. But for the love of god, does every metta HAVE to be a Basic or Core skill???
I love my Barbs, i absolutely love Bash and all.
However i think it's only the Bleed Barbs pushing past 120 Pit, maybe some Rouges.
Are there any Sorc builds doing 120+?
Maybe 2-5 People have gotten a Necro past 121, and let's be real...Druids are so underpowered they struggle with 110+ solo, unless they have god-like RNG, triple perfect GA, Temps & Masterwork hits.
Bottom line, Blizzard needs to pull their heads out of their asses and do something about the balance of int & will power toons.
I know Spirit Born has to be O.P. for season 6. However that doesn't mean all Will Power/Int or whatever the main stats are, will be in the same or close place.
So yeah. Blizzard, we love your game. Great systems, and all. Just give us more to do, and for the love of Iranius, give the bottom 3 an extra slot!
Cheers all, see ya in Season 5.
-DW
I think they're going for an EXPANDED, but not INFINITE paragon system. Adding more boards, and adding an according amount of points, but not to the point where you over-fill your boards and have no choice anymore. If so, I support this idea. Adds more depth to the longevity/power of your character without going too far.
The bigger issue they have, and why people want "infinite" paragon is hitting max level pretty early on and having XP go to waste. Even if it's purely cosmetic and gives no stats (which is what paragon was initially, I actually liked that era), having a use for XP just feels better. Also worth noting that while it is billed as "infinite", paragon in D3 in its final version wasn't really infinite either. It had set softcap points where leveling any further was almost impossible, and there came a point where it functionally became impossible, so most people just hit the softcap point, and that was where the stat gains were balanced around, something like 1200~ or a few weeks of play. Eventually hardcore players could get that down to a few days, but eh. Whatever. Personally I'd prefer a split between the XP not going to waste function and stat/paragon boards. Sure, let the massive stat gains stop at some point, but we should always have a fairly regular endorphin boost of gaining levels every few hours or days. Otherwise, what's the point of being able to clear the screen of hundreds of monsters at once or whatever?
This is the issue with the current paragon board: there are many options that will never be used. Users run straight to the glyph socket on almost every board, and the ones with no glyph socket are used for the legendary node. All these rare nodes will never be used, and legendary nodes will not be used in favor of getting a glyph on the board. The system is flawed and needs a rework.
My guess is not an infinite system but streamlining the glyph socket/legendary node selections. A legendary node is no different than a legendary/unique affix. A glyph is a legendary aspect. The focus will be on glyph sockets and legendary nodes and removing all the filler. Adding more boards retains the choice aspect. All one is doing now is optimizing the paths through the boards. If those optimizations are cleaned up and made more concise, then the focus is on the glyph/legendary node element. Rare nodes could be inherent bonuses on the boards based on where they are placed in your paragon setup.
A fun idea would be having the legendary nodes be class-specific legendary aspects. Turning the paragon boards into a piece of gear with restrictions similar to how aspects get put on types of gear, i.e., mobility, defensive, etc. This would increase build diversity significantly and allow for a more custom build. The boards would be defensive, mobility, offensive, etc., and the user can place a select set of legendary aspects on the board instead of gear. Only some of the aspects would be usable on the board, and there would be a few board-only aspects that couldn't be used on gear. Then, a limit can be placed on how many board types a player uses. This limit would ensure that no one can have five offensive boards. This system could also synergize with the classes and balance the problem of Barbarian having 4 (6, two are double) weapon slots by restricting offensive boards to the Barb and giving extra weapon boards to Sorc/Druid/Nec/Spiritborn. It is more complex than my example, but balance could be achieved in classes with certain advantages.
You wrote an Essay for Something that is barely true anymore. Legendary nodes used to be Supertrash but now the average build has 3 or more of them
If they ever want true leader boards they shouldn't do the infinite paragon. Would be the botters on the top just like in D3.
It’s a game for casual dad gamers.
No one is gonna care about D4 leader boards.
No one cares
Botters who cares? There is already RMT
Every popular online game has RMT, like it or not
There will always be bots. You’re reply is irrelevant.
It was much harder to level in D4 at the beginning, but....
I know it may be an unpopular opinion, but I like Diablo3s grind. It feels good to keep killing monsters wayy after max level.
The moment I hit 100 in D4, I get pretty bored. That being said, it doesn't need to tie into power. Just need something to keep grinding outside of loot drops.
EDIT: Yeah, Diablo 2 is also a great example of ARPG leveling done right.
infinite paragon is exactly why i stop playing D3
i really enjoy the idea that there are the cap
yet if there will be a cap within the board limit, its quite okay, as you can see the end of progression
You said it so well. I also always thought D2 had a perfect grind where you got 90% of your levels easily while the grind to 99 helped give small a goal to keep you motivated playing your character. I honestly lose all motivation to play my char in D4 when I hit 100
I wish paragon boards were like ascendencies, less boards, way bigger boards and more game changing nodes.
An infinite system would be awesome. I play Only One character. I don't play on the seasons much, that would be phenomenal for people that play on the eternal realm people like myself that only play 1 or 2 characters.
I really hope they dont do it. Just make the boards more fun and its a great paragon system. A few more points is fine, but infinite is soooo boring. I want them to remove additives or just give rare additives/extremely necessary ones and puts fun nodes. Move speed, atk speed, mastery skill size, core skill size, you would be able to chose what you want as temper and what you want from paragon. And make some new fun nodes that change the game somewhat. Imagine infinite progression and raids, good luck playing the game with such a gap between people
I like leveling beyond 100 even if I get nothing but a number. Shows im much deeper into the end game than a fresh 100.
I would absolutely hate it
why not man ? i mean it would be nice for the game to recognise and reward its true loyal players who spend their entire time in the game ! like me ! and a lot of people like me ... I've been at it since the beta and no one could really know the difference between me and a new player , thats kinda sad man ... u feel me ? I'm down for infinite systems 100% we would feel our power growing and its FUN! Just why not ? as for the casual players : they could get help from the pro players more and trade or post for services , that would actually help the Trade website grow more and busier, and a job for us who are always playing and a point to keep going and growing our community.
I personally love the idea of the unlimited Paragon board. It makes the end game more interesting, allowing for continuous play and character improvement. Great idea!
My biggest issue with D4 right now is that there's a point where you can't really progress any further or earn any upgrades.
D3 paragon system rewarded you for simply playing, even if you didn't find any good gear.
Meanwhile in D4 I often skip mobs because:
1. I can't get any more xp
2. Uber uniques can't drop from them and I can't get any better legendaries/uniques
Isn't that a situation we would like to avoid as much as possible?
Perhaps they could do some kind of "legacy paragon" system where those points are disables for all leaderboard activities? That would keep the continuous strengthening of the character while still maintaining the leaderboards meaning.
When I saw the new level display I just figured it meant they are separating levels in which you get skill points (1-50 currently and then 1-60 with the expansion) and then separately show paragon levels. But I don't think this, in any way, means that we will get infinite paragons. In fact, we may even still get the exact same amount we have now, which would make sense, as the extra levels from the expansion give us skill points and the paragon boards are balanced around the number of points we have (And yes, I know we get a new board, but we aren't using all boards atm either, it's just more choices imo).
Infinite paragon for 3 month's ? for what ?
Seasons need to be longer then 3 months, is sucks to get all your ubers over and over and over. just make he game ENJOYABLE, and make seasons 6 months. only streamers have literally all the time for gaming, blizz should not compare normal people with streamers.
I never understood why "seasons" games got so popular. You create a character knowing from day 1 that you will delete it in just a few months. Its far more engaging if you played a single character and new events (essentially seasons) are added and removed from the game every few months instead.
Maybe there could be also a combination of both ? Surely not so soon yet, but eventually for the future ?
Let's say you get the 225 Glyphpoints (or more with new boards, legendary glyphs and notes) and after that something similar to D3 where you can push a mainstat, gold pickup radius, crit chance etc, maybe also that u can rise max resicap or a something crazy like higher chance to get a hand on some goblins.
I was also thinking it would be a balancing nightmare to allow infinite paragon points, but I do like the idea of maybe just 10 more levels for maybe an extra 10 paragon points total. Keep the pace of going from 1-100 the same, the same skill points and paragon points, but then going from 100-110 would take as long as leveling to 100 five times. You could naturally reach that relatively easy anyway, but it wouldn't make 90% of the player base think they HAVE to do that in order to compete because 10 more paragon points is nice, but not game breaking.
i think they just wanted to split Level and Paragon Level.. thats all. Its the opening to adding every year a bit of max lvl for annual expansion - 70 max lvl next year etc ( or maybe only 65)... and adding a limited paragon levels. It can be maybe 300 this year, but its way easier just to add another 50 paragaon levels to max, then explaining everybody that max lvl will be 115 oraz 126 or 140.
exactly
Infinite paragon should mean reworking more systems in the game.
1. Groups should not have an xp bonus over solo. Groups can already clear content faster and have more synergies available compared to solo.
2. A maximum number of paragon boards being utilized would need to be implemented.
3. Paragon xp should be extremely difficult to complete at the very high end (just like Rob says).
I really like that you can complete a character to a point and move on to another. I like doing multiple builds over a season rather than just perfecting one - I guess Eternal Realm play becomes a thing if its infinite? I liked season 4 a lot with the wolf rewards and lvls and all that.
Infinite paragon would be interesting if they retool it. Let's say hard cap X points like 100pts past lv 100. The infinite paragon points would be banked for other characters in the same account that would have access to a certain amount of excess paragon points. That way in the end, each character would have a maximum amount of paragon points like 200 total where 100 comes from the character lvling from 60 to 100 and the other from the excess paragon pts earned.
If they did infinte paragon.. they could make each additional node cost more points. Instead of 1 it cost maybe 5 paragon points but that could cause a major grind as well. And something to work towards
Exponentially required exp/level.
At one point you get 5 dex after one day
2 days: another 5 dex
4 days: another 5 int
8 days: rare node
16 days: another 5 dex
...
I do not think it's that bad. Maybe not 200% increase but this would limit those who do not sleep. And you have around 3 month seasons anyway.
As long as most likely gear would benefit player more than exp.
This is a great move, and I wish it was coming in S5 as when the PTR was introduced, it did not look like a season worth playing. I know that changes are going to be imtroduced Aug 1st, but the changes have to be massive to get people to want to play like they did S4.
The problem isn't the leveling, it's the item drops. I have the same 5 pieces of gear that I had when I reached level 100 (that is 5 weeks ago). Have found nothing better, and when I do find something that might be slightly better it gets bricked in tempering or I have it storage trying to get the item to roll with the affix/master work to work with my build. I have spent so much time doing pits and helltides these past weeks with no results. My character has reached a max pit level (can't beat the next level). Only way for it to be stronger is to get gear with multiple greater affixes or roll better affixes in tempering. It's the same problem as previous seasons. There is nothing worse than bricking an item. There needs to be something in place to reset tempering.
I don’t want to have a new material to grind to reset tempering. Change the tempering system so I can select the affix and then RNG can be in the value of the affix. Never hard brick any item and still have something to chase through min max
They need to fix this system for sure. The chances of getting certain rolls is so bad too. They make it nearly impossible to roll passives for your builds on things like the amulet. I wish they'd also allow us to just reset 1 rank of masterworking, instead of having to start from the beginning again. I always get crits on the most worthless stat on gear, and constantly have to reset. They either need to give us more control on the enchants/tempering with better chances and more likely to roll things you have skills equipped for, or make better gear more common. I'm so sick of grinding for days to get a piece of good gear just for it to be ruined within 30 seconds.
Your spot on. Most gear that I have I got earlier.
I completely agree. My character has had the same items for the last few weeks. When I managed to find god tier GA items, I bricked them instantly. It's incredibly frustrating. There's too much RNG and not enough reward.
IMHO infinite paragon levels actually retain my game play. Every season I was challenged to see how high I could get in D3 grinding those points. Since the endgame is subpar, this would incentivize me to play longer. I reached 100 season 4 and became very disillusioned. Improving gear while gaining paragon always feels good to me. It kept me chasing for that perfect item.
Wow grinding for +5 main stat, such great game design and incredibly motivating.
the reason I like the infinite progression d3 has and want it infinite in d4 is because this to me is one ofthose games where you should be as strong as you choose to play and earn up to, if there is a limit to your strength it takes away from the experience for me. I wanna be able to earn power beyond others because I put in time to get that work done.
I don't bother about people who play a lot and how strong their characters are
But I missed about feeling of progression in Diablo. When I reached max level I lose this feeling.
They definitely should device some approach to preserve feeling of infinite progression
I like the idea. Gives me a reason to play longer into the season since there's 0 endgame content and 0 multi-player content
At this point in the season... I am stuck at trying to improve my build. I have gone from finding a new piece that improves my build every 4-6 hours of game time to finding one once a week of game play. (and I started the season way late). When I do get a piece that looks to improve my build I brick it 2/3 of the time. Meaning I could go several weeks with no improvement in my build. The contrast from that D3 where I could within a 4 hour game session: Have several pieces I could roll in Kanai's Cube, Level up my Legendary gems a few times and (if none of that worked) get a paragon level or two. Essentially, I ALWAYS felt I was making progress to make myself better so I could complete a higher GR. This loop felt satisfying and rewarding to me. I like an onward progression system that rewards continued play. I don't think just more paragon points is it. Some of the things on that board will NOT apply to my current build so what good will that do? Oh great I can put 1 point into say... more bleed damage but if I don't do bleed on my build.. so what? I would rather see more levels in glyphs... But yes... more rewards for more time in character is good, within reason. LOL
Would love infinite paragon
Infinite paragon would be a cool thing for hardcore, but for softcore, the only thing I'd like to see is more interesting movement through a board. Maybe a line where its half as long to get to something big (like a legendary) but you cant pick up rares or something.
I don't think infinite paragon makes sense for this game, they already have a hard enough time balancing game difficulty without introducing even more sources of power disparity. I would like some sort of long-term deterministic grind rather than just farming for GA items, cosmetic rewards would be good IMO
1:25 lowkey elon commenting on ur X...
He does all the time
He's saying infinite paragon would be "epic"
Now I KNOW he's an idiot.
I'm worried that they're gonna totally up end the paragon system. In one way it could be good because 75% of the nodes and glyphs are useless atm. I'd just like to see them fix those nodes and glyphs instead of totally changing the system
I don’t know about infinite, but I would like to see more progression after 100. Maybe the shots start with more paragon but cap it at 500 for example.
first greater rifts, now this. dont know why they didnt put d4 as an addon for d3.. seems we are going back and taking over a year to go back XD
You have to consider that you can make the paragon lvls XP exponential as well. Then basically nothing changes for the casual player. Only some hard core players would get more points out of it.
It seems cool but I need to fully see it before judging it. I just do not like how it seems a lot of things are turning into D3 stuff and I am not meaning the paragon system. But honestly I got way more faith and am excited after seeing Spiritborn and hearing the devs talk with Raxx and Wudi. Things I really want are some type of crafting system, testing the new uniques and a new skill for the existing classes in the expansion.
BTW, with infinite paragon at least you make progress when at level 100. Not everyone is streamer with fans sponsoring you with items.
I think merge the two ideas ?
Infinite paragon board though after the current total number of paragon points and experience scaling to get additional paragon points becomes insane?
My only wonder is how does more paragon points make the game more fun though?
I wouldn’t freak out yet. I think it’s gonna be the same as now pretty much. The cap will be 60 and will get about the same amount of paragon points or a little more. They have to know most people don’t want infinite paragon, so I bet with feedback it’d change too
Limit the board amount and make the paragon points limitless. Say 5 boards and then efficiently fill them from the start and then max them out for committing to the same character for the length of the season! 👌👌
I do think they should increase the level cap on glyphs, itll give more reason to go NM.dungeon for longer.
Right now, basically once youre done with upgrading your glyphs which maxes out fast then you have no reason ever to do NM dungeons.
That would be great. Grinding just for gear is not fun. Though I think it is more possible that at earlier levels we will get less paragon points and at later levels it will be more. This way mid game will become tougher.
Infinite paragon is stupid idea ... hope that blizzard is trying to change paragon system into something with more options to choose from
I think we will be better off with double the number of paragon points since they’re capped at 200. that would allow more optimization, than just infinite.
I think it should be done to make it reachable for the players that play season...like dudes like you playing 8 hours a day in month for regular folk 2-3 months...to keep us going whole season...it's true that after reaching 100 lvl...you don't have much of a progress and trying to find item that just gives a few more stats is kinda...it is something that is not guaranteed which is good but you need some progress that is guaranteed cuz than you lose your interest if nothing makes your class better...
No, chasing gear is enough for me.
No, it is not enough for me.
I’m all for an unlimited progression system, whether it’s something similar to D2 or something else. But D3 is simply not working, not unless they make you gain like 1% dmg per 1000 paragon (after paragon 1000).
Not gaining any item/char upgrades during an entire session really kills my motivation. However, leveling and always gaining at least some experience seems to trick my brain. At least it worked in D2 and D3.
What if paragon enabled you to level glyphs beyond level 21? Perhaps with some serious diminishing returns (i.e. not AoZ glyph).
They could also enable some “rested” systems similar to WoW, where more casual players would gain more paragon exp for not being logged in 24/7.
This makes me feel like Michael Scott when Toby is back. iykyk
wild idea here, if they want to implement infinite paragon how about you still have a fixed set of paragon points to allocate (current is 225 iirc) but you can now LEVEL UP each paragon node for a % increase of the node. And you cannot level the same node consecutively, you need to level up ALL 225 nodes before you can proceed to the next level. Thoughts?
Makes super sense and coincides with the removal of the leveling cap where you cap at 10 levels above you
It's a bad idea. Items won't matter until you filled all your paragon boards. Players will find out the best way to farm paragon points and only do that. And when we have full paragon boards, then we will farm for uniques and uber uniques.
It's better when players have to make choices and everybody isn't playing the same build with the same gear. Like this season when you can play WW bleed dust devils without any uniques and uber uniques and speed farm pit 101 or do pit 130+.
The fun is to farm for better items and not paragon points.
I really really really hope they don't bring back the infinite paragon system, I hated every second of it in D3.
Making an infinte paragon board sounds not so good ... but they may do some other reward system where you can get more paragon points or skill points etc ...
Having a leveling system in which you have higher difficulty in the last 10 lvls in order to reach the max sounds really good! I remembered that in D2 and it was awesome. That can be a solution for D4, you dont need to invent the wheel if its already invented and its works great!!
I think people simply dont like thay anymore, wich is a shame. Its easier and easier to level up and people seem to like it like that
The problem is when blizzard tries to reinvent wheels they come out square everytime.
"The more I progress, the more I feel weak". People already cried to lower difficulty in end game (Rob's one of them, if I remember right). Next idea.
Have they fixed hard bricking yet, that’s been my biggest pain point. No fun to grind for gear knowing it’s most likely going straight in the trash. Let me select the affix I want and place the RNG in the value of the roll. No hard bricking and there is still a min max chase. This is such an easy fix.
Gabynator watching closely plotting the return of his botting career with infinite paragon changes.
lol - those were the days!
I think they will have the Paragon Boards like now. And then if you reach it maybe like d3 so you get main stat for each level
I actually like the infinite paragon system. It feels like you’re indefinitely being rewarded with power even after hitting max level. I always liked it in D3
Me too 👍
@@gregbredenko2290 when they capped it at 800 a few seasons ago I lost interest way sooner than usual
I think the nodes for points should stay. But they should start it from. Level 1. All the way to lvl 60. 60×4=240.
I’m a casual player, i have a wife, 2 kids, 2 dogs, & 2 jobs…i hope they do unlimited paragon, push it to its extreme! Can’t hurt any
I hate the endless paragon from the bottom of my heart.
D3 been dead for years for me cause of it.
why? if it's only cosmetic than it's fine
I think they will do as in D3 - however, not the infinite Paragon, but the changed version with a cap. Probably a cap of 250 or 300 points.
I dont want infinite updrades to my character, outside of maybe finding better rolls on 900 ilvl gear. A character needs to have an endpoint. That is what makes D4 fun for me. I can jump in to start the season and finish it all out in like 3 to 4 weeks.
Infinite paragon or any currency, you can definitely collect w/o RNG if you do Pits forever and you can buy high gear from. I never got an uber or a 2 GA item in S4 as a new SSF player and will never get. No progression at all when playing. +5 mainstat feels good instead. in D3 1500 gons or the Guardian Set provided you with good defensive. I loved it as a fun casual noob. I need 3-4 month each season to reach 2k gons for my final leaderboard pushes at the end of season. it is a perfect system for me casual.
Hopefully they eventually add alter of rites and seasonal achievements 2 of my of my favorite things about d3
If they get leveling slow after 90 that would result the same as with Pit over 101, not much care about doing higher with punishment results.
The problems:
-alot of the nodes on the paragon boards will NEVER be taken because there is always a better node to take/path through, so why are they even there in the first place
-some players would like to path to some of the paragon nodes because it would allow them to not rely so heavily on hitting certain values on gear (like resistances or just stacking dex as a barb for crit hit chance) but right now the solution is: find the optimal path through the boards for maxing DPS and don't use it to fix non-optimal gear and just drop/buy optimal gear. I mean "how dare you not having best in slot gear 2 days into a season, what are you, a cAsUaL?!?"
-Some players have fun optimizing their boards but easily more than 90% of the players don't. they just pick whatever sounds good or follow a guide because they can't be bothered to even try, they can't even be bothered to think about how to rotate a board or in what order to pick them and every minute spend finding the 'the best' path is a minute wasted NOT PLAYING the game.
-if you played 200 or more hours after reaching level 100 and you didn't find an item that is an upgrade then you have wasted 200+ hours. so 200+h with no progression. that just feels bad.
the solution: allow us to grind enough paragon points to fill the entire boards, this way:
-eventually every node will be taken and the game can be balanced on having a full paragon board and there will no longer be nodes that will never be taken.
-you don't need to feel bad for picking paragon nodes that 'fix' your build because you know that you at some point will have both; nodes fixing your build AND the juicy ones that increase or even multiply your damage and your only trade off is the time it takes you to get to the really good nodes.
-a player who doesn't like optimizing their boards but like to play alot can just ignore that aspect of the game, because at some point is doen't matter anymore if they pathed through their boards in an optimal way or not but players who enjoy doing that still get alot of early game power from doing that
-playing many hours after reaching max level and a minimum of paragon point for a strong board but not getting an item upgrade no longer feels bad because at least you got some sweet additional paragon points that make you at least a tiny bit stronger.
A good balance between guaranteed progression through time invested and potential progression through good item drops is alot better than just a purely RNG based progression.
When I get bored with a game, I get out cheat engine and wemod and all that and just get everything right away and mess around with the game. I want that for D4 after I've had my fun playing it normally. It's just fun to go extreme toward the end of season.
“Infinite” paragons but have experience required scale extremely high after say 200 points would be a good idea I think. So the experience required from paragon 200-201 would take as long as 190-200 and scale higher and higher as far as xp required. Would prevent things from getting too out of hand as far as character strength, but at least still give some incentive/satisfaction to playing once you’re max level
As a casual player, I don't mind the inf paragon points (in the season, so 3 months). I think the more you play the more powerful you shall become like in d3, not just how lucky you are with drops or how much gold you have to buy items and that is coming from a player that will never get all the way to the top but still find it more fun to getting rewarded each time your XP bar starts over again.
Why people dont want gap between players who can commit and casuals? There should be reward system for those who pkay a lot
I think its more likely that paragon boards as they are will be included in the leveling system, and new paragon will be similar to d3 giving static stat increases above max level
REALY infinite Paragon Points are not "possible" in D4, you are capped at the Paragon Boards.
Blizz said, they dont want "fullskilling" the Boards.
But we can have all betwen 225-300, maybe 400 is "OK", i think,
if we become more Boards and Glyphes and thats confirmed.
And yes, the last part of Points ist hard to grind is a good thing i think too.
I just want account wide paragon levels, but definitely not unlimited paragon. I loved that part of Elder Scrolls Online.
If you have a infinite paragon board.
We will need monster to scale with it.
Otherwise whats the point, we kill lvl 200 monsters with ease. When our characters are at peak.
The universally hated Diablo Immortal at least had an interesting solution to the infinite paragon problem. There was a server paragon level that increased by a fixed amount every day. If you were behind you got a catch-up xp bonus and if you were ahead you got an xp penalty.
Not sure I would advocate such a system but D4 just bores me after hitting 100 and in D3 it was simply impossible to compete against 6k paragon seasonal players.
Been wanting this forever! something to keep me playing the entire season
I think the more they remove players having to make some choices with their build the worse games get in general. Work on balancing choices not just removing them and adding endless progression until you unlock everything.
I guess a finite pragon board system would be good and something comes after that. maybe something similar to D3 ...
Wouldnt mind paragon lvls or new levels beyond that giving cosmetic rewards.
1. The infinite system wouldn't necessarily matter for seasonal characters as you shouldn't have access to your total pool. 2. Did anyone else notice the key word of Legendary Glyphs
You are assuming the paragon levels above 225 is easy to get... if they are the same xp requirement you are suggesting for 95-100, then they are exactly the same thing, just displayed differently.
lot of players leave D3 after infinite parangon update. Not immediatly for most but with time when they see they cannot compete anymore for top 10, top 100 or 500 depends on people because of gap of power.
Same problem same effect in D4, i can call it.
If infinite, reward as to be somehow skin, platine, horse speed, title, stash tab, small gold reduc to the merchand, but nothing scalling character power and stat.
I think having the last 5-10 paragon levels be a grind is aweseome. I often feel bad when I reach level 100 because I want to kill mobs, but there is no satisfying reason.
Id be happy with expanded paragon especially if new paragon boards and glyphs are introduced but dont want infinite
We should have a maximum point to put in paragon board. But after that, be able to upgrade the paragon board by litlle pourcentage step by step to infinite.
Giving us paragon XP whatever hero we are playing would be good. Right now it is a kind of pushing us back (limiting) after hit L100.
If paragon ends up just copying D3 with endless power creep, I'm out. Game is already way too much like D3.