The Reluctant Atheist - David Baddiel, Richard Ayoade and Ben Quash | Intelligence Squared
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- Опубліковано 23 чер 2023
- David Baddiel would love there to be a God. The comedian and bestselling author has spent a lot of time fantasising about how much better life would be if there actually were a supreme being - which for him would be some kind of Superhero Dad who chased off Death. Unfortunately for him, there isn’t. Or at least, that’s Baddiel’s view, and it’s the starting point of his new book The God Desire.
In April 2023 Baddiel came to our stage at The Tabernacle in Notting Hill, London, to argue that it is the very intensity of his, and everyone else’s, desire for God to exist that proves God’s non-existence. As he explained, the idea of God offers us narrative - fulfilling our need to structure the chaos of our existence. It offers us meaning, allowing us the belief that our lives matter. And above all God helps us confront the terror of death. Anything so deeply wished-for, Baddiel will contend, we will inevitably make real.
Baddiel was joined on stage by comedian, actor and film-maker Richard Ayoade and theologian and broadcaster Ben Quash for a conversation that tackled this most ancient and fundamental of questions: is our need for there to be something greater than ourselves anything more than just that - a need?
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There are plenty of us who neither believe nor wish we did. Baddiel is welcome to his poignant yearning for a belief he cannot submit to, I just wish he didn't presume to project it on the rest of humanity.
I think he has some interesting insights, but yeah, he's definitely got a lot of projection going on. Any time someone claims they know what's going on in someone else's mind (e.g. when he says he just doesn't believe that other atheists can be comfortable with the idea of oblivion) they lose a ton of credibility.
on a consious level i have absolutely 0 fear of death. but yet when i am about to get hit by a truck i still step back to avoid it. because i ofcourse want to live. but ots not like i fear the being dead part. i fear the part just before that and how painful my death will be
I don't fear death because I would have no experience or recognition of my own death. I fear the stoppage of my life. I love my wife and some of my family😏. I have had many good times along with some bad. Nature is beautiful and the fact that I even exist is magnificent. I won't know anything when I'm dead. I just don't want my life to end anytime soon. I'm older, but this coil is still pretty good.
I think the picture he paints of atheists as not understanding the need for comfort is wrong. Most atheists I know, including myself, understand it as much as he does, I'm sure.
i think he is probably talking about the random atheist that hasnt put much thought into it. which is not a good representation of the average atheist. but is representative of the atheists that are loud and annoying. i can see how one can be blinded by the loudness of what some like to call "angry atheists"
While I felt he had some interesting thoughts, I found Mr. Baddiel's attitude condescending. It was just like listening to the type of holier-than-thou theists that like to tell us we actually do believe in God. This just goes to show how there are many people, theists and atheists alike, who need to occasionally stop talking and actually /listen/.
19:30 Life is much more appealing than nothingness. It depends. So many medical problems are associate with aging. People can look forward to release from the burdens of a hard life.
Don't need to buy Baddiel's book now, since he read the whole thing.
I love Baddiels take because it aligns very much with my own, the question everybody has of whether god exists always felt irrelevant because it could never be proved, the real question is that if he does exist then what kind of god is he? I only knew two things about God, one is that he created the universe and everything in it, the other is that he is all-wise, all-beneficent and all-loving.
When you continue to live and experience life not only do you learn more about human history but you all also become very observant of the modern world around you and the chaos that exists in nature and the universe. I think if you are paying any kind of serious attention to the world you will soon come to the inevitable conclusion that God can be neither of those two things I described. If he is all-wise, all-beneficent and has the best intentions for us then God had no involvement in creating the universe. If he did create the universe and everything in it, then he cannot be all-loving. To be both of those things would be a contradiction.
30:56
Desire
Is it possible to "choose" to desire something? In my experience feelings aren't choices. You can choose how to respond to them. You can choose to act like you feel something. But you cannot choose to feel a certain way. You can't choose to want something. Either you do or you don't. There are plenty of things in life I would choose to like if I could and others I would choose to dislike, but I can't choose my wants.
Richard Ayode's leg
That is why reincarnation is the theory that makes the most sense to me. The idea of 1 all powerful entity who is waiting to reward or punish you can be quite frightening
From one who has some knowledge of ancient (pre-historic) beliefs via archeology, dealing with human mortality appears to be the first sign of any sort of belief that something would transcend the laws of nature. There are signs of this in 30,000 year old graves. Though, the belief that life after death has been a common thread in a myriad of ancient religions, I think a more compelling desire is for meaning. This subject is harder to grasp but may be more important in the self evaluation of one's life. Death slams the final door on you, but lacking meaning may be far worse... it may be humiliating. Meaning is fulfillment in life. Death just stops you, but it doesn't erase you. Feeling meaningless may feel like being erased... worthless... a zero... like you shouldn't have been born. Ghastly!
By the by, Ernest Becker has already written a landmark book on the subject of death and theology. "The Denial of Death." It's a classic.
life has just as much "meaning" without a god. the meaning that humans attribute to god is just projection.
@scambammer6102 A very common idea. There's nothing new there. Read the existentialist philosopher Albert Camus. It might help you focus.
9:17
Death can be and probably is a very motivating factor in people's desires to believe in god(s) and some sort of afterlife but by no means is it the only reason. At least one other I come across in these discussions is justice. People want to believe that people will get what they deserve, in this life or the next. People often want comfort in this life as well, telling themselves that prayers can alter whatever reality they currently don't want to deal with.
I am sure God doesn't care why you think people believe in him, just be grateful he started this whole thing.
Baddiel is very vain and pleased with what he has written
Where is Roy, Moss?
He was hilarious in that role
My brother in humanity, I am sending you this message... God is waiting for you to follow the path of guidance and He loves goodness for you... What do you think about sailing on a journey of searching for God, the Great Creator who created this beautiful universe... If you want to know God, read about the Islamic religion God commanded us to follow him
Thank you. Just got home from a funeral. And my father's funeral was also on this date. Fascinating discussion.
I honestly do not fear death. I am an atheist and I find life so miserable and such a struggle that the idea of oblivion will be sweet relief and the idea of immortal or endless life after this is incredibly awful. Death will just be the end and that seems great to me, it will finally be over and I won't have a sense of duty or responsibility to carry on with something I take no joy from.
Even pigeons grant agency to random events. We are no different.
Anthropomorphising the inanimate is merely a hiccup of our evolutionarily advantageous social brains. Haggling with the weather, so to speak
My atheism is a rejection of claims that god or gods exist. I have nothing to "prove" about somethings "Non existence" in the least.
The burden of proof lays with the one making the positive claim and nobody has ever been able to prove the existence of god, of gods, of anything so-called "supernatural".
Sorry David, but you're mistaken right from the jump.
After Hitch, Dawkins, Harris, Dennett et al...its great to get a new crop of commentators on this facinating subject area.
...right.....
22:52
The creation of God
The way this is being stated sounds like a deliberate creation of God(s) when it is quite likely that the manifesting of god beliefs arose organically from human psychology assigning agency to natural phenomena.
Humans made it all up: wishful thinking, fantasy, good job humans.
Remain blind
@@Heru_Iluvatar how is the Kool-Aid?. not blind, just brilliant ;)
@@Enzorgullochapin The "Kool-Aid" is heavenly. How's the underworld?
David shouldn't be taken seriously in regards to anything, given his history a prolific racist, and bad faith actor on his favourite topic of antisemitism.
From the length of time he felt the need to read from his book for, one can see Mr Baddiel has a high regard for his own theories on a variety of matters he has limited expertise in.
I'd rather read someone who has devoted their career exploring theology and psychology. Not a jack of a number of trades.
You mean to say the person who wrote their thoughts and opinions down, in a book, has a high regard for those thoughts and opinions? If he does he should probably write them down.... oh wait...
It's cool that if you go to the right dinner parties you just get to write books about subjects you're completely unqualified to speak on and have them receive a tonne of promotion from national newspapers
really really really good. David has hit on something very valuable. As deep and thoughtful as Spinoza.
I agree.
Good conversation.
Ummm can someone cut in please…not that I wanna hear Christian babbling but geez. The points aren’t so deep to require 11 paragraphs per.
Amazing to think we live in a time when so called serious Oxbridge types are wondering if there's a Father Christmas in the sky and simultaneously thousands of people from the West are participating in shamanic Ayahuasca ceremonies investigating higher dimensional realities.
Those aren't realities, they're altered brain states
Higher reality = circuit bending for the brain through pharmacology.
What they didn't consider is the Eastern perspective of Karma and the belief in reincarnation. Along with that is a belief that self is an illusion. Final rest may not be a god but may be the release of self. The management of self is very time consuming and often provokes anxiety... not temporary anxiety, but lifelong management of something that may be illusory. When we're madly in love, having great fun, or having an orgasm with beloved partner, we lose ourselves for a time (la petite mort). The last thing we're thinking about is our self.That might be a glimpse of what some think heaven would feel like. No self, no more problems.😌
Boris Johnson and David Baddiel were born fourteen days apart... whilst on the surface,
they seem as different as you could possibly imagine. Although in reality... they're identical.
One is a pathological liar and
The other is pathologically honest.
So both pathological in some sense, yes.
But your just being an idiot.
How so?
I am loving this with David Baddiel and panel.
I have always beep open minded and do not judge.
I love to read many books on American History on all sides and world histories, philosophy, religious divisions, sciences, great books of writers and poets, and music genres ,wars ,since 3500 before Christ. The Gilgamesh Epic , cultures traveling and languages mixing.
I love Igmar Bergman's films
Bertrand Russell and Wiggenstein. Brilliant!!! I love all philosophers, some were insane, but philosophy grows as histories unfolds with its many lies and philosophy is never stagnant.
Have you read "The Redbook," C. J. Jung," Libra Novas Edited and with an Introduction by Sonu Shamdasani, 2009?
You met Frank Skinner. Wow!!!
What did President Degaule say about Sartre?"We can't put Voltaire in prison. Okay, Sartre and Albert Camus got in a little spat. I loved Sartre's book, "Nausea." Lol
Theology is a quest for more knowledge.
What is thought? What is intelligence? What is the difference between the intellect and intelligence.
Book knowledge is important.
Heraclitus once said, "One can never step in the same river twice."
When one knows, one doesn't know, and when one doesn't know, then and only then, one may.
I love Dr. IAIN MCGILCHRIST, books, "The Master and His Emissary," The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World. Plus, his new one, "The Matter With Things," Our Brains, Our Delusions and the Unmaking of the World, 1500 hundred pages with notes and his lectures with many from different fields that are on UA-cam.
Subsequently, I have been reading books since the age of five years old.
With the deepest appreciation and respect for all of you today on this panel.❤
Going to have to disagree with David. If he can bring up numbers to prove statistically he is right, then that is fine, but my existing disproves his point that every atheist thinks this way. I legitimately don't need comforting. I don't fear being dead (which is not the same thing as wanting to die, which I most certainly do not).
I am not interested in a superhero dad who can take the fear of bad things away. And that isn't what most religions actually preach anyway. Most atheists I see online have a similar view, and while i can't read minds, I am inclined to believe them. This sounds like David's own insecurities coming to the front, due to his indoctrination of religion as a child. I don't fault him for it, nor even think it's bad. Only that he needs to understand that he is not a monolith. People are different and there is no one way to describe a large group.
I don't believe in a big invisible man in the sky. This was nice however,
Baddiel has got Atheism completely wrong here and I'm guessing it's because he is an ex-theist.
There is a big difference between someone who wasn't indoctrinated from birth into any religion and someone who has left their faith to become atheist., Therefore one should NOT speak for the other..!
This is an excellent point that is very rarely discussed!
Very true. As a extheist myself turned atheist, I have a great amount of militancy and rage towards religion which poisoned me for over a decade. Only as I deal with my psychological issues can I reasonably deal with the issue of gods. My close friend who experienced no religion from birth, is always benevolent and inquisitive about religion and gods and it used to confuse me to know end.
Now I realize it is partially because he is not threatened by the teachings that I once believed.
While I agree with your premise, I have to point out that most atheists are ex-theists. I seem to be among the rare one's who never really believed in religion once I was old enough to understand the concept.
@@SilortheBlade It depends which country and community you grow up in, in terms of how prevalent theism is.
Maybe David could not project his personal insecurities onto all atheists, that would be nice
I agree. Babies are solipsistic, so I guess it was to be expected from Baddiel.
I did agree with him on one thing though. I really like it when he's asleep. Wish he'd do more of it..
Free Palestine
I’m still waiting for comedian David Baddiel’s first joke. That bit where he compared himself to George Orwell - like Jews - doesn’t count.
Made his money ruining the lives of black soccer players promoting an fermenting hate, creating racists chants as they played, now very sensitive about white racism as he makes money of that from channel 4.
This channel is called "Intelligence Squared" but you guys believe that an imaignary sky daddy exists???
Where's the intelligence?
I just learned that as an atheist, I apparently believe that comfort is a childish thing. Thank goodness that Mr Baddiel is here to tell all of us atheists (500 million and increasing) these things otherwise we just wouldn't know how to behave and what we believe.
a thiest and athiest are both non-believers, thiest - i do not believe god doesnt exist , so he too doesnt believe so he is also a non believer , both the thiest and athiest are on the same boat thinking they are different
You haven’t grasped theist has a definition. Look it up 😢
"i do not believe god doesnt exist"
That's a double negative. You fail this English test.
Never heard of the clever clogs presenter before
It must feel rather satisfying to be among "the Chosen"! One wonders why then they don't seem to be very satisfied? Truly believing oneself special would seem to negate any need for insecurity. To find oneself in the predicament of being put on probation, however, would call into question the very nature of faith.
Arguably the most important lesson from the life of Jesus: whoever preaches too much eventually gets crucified. Therefore, be silent, secure in the knowledge that everlasting bliss awaits you among the "Saved".
Please be especially mindful of preaching if your name happens to be Brian (or you value your very finite time on this planet). As an aside, the condition of believing one is "chosen" sounds like a mental illness. List everything associated with this and present it to someone well-versed in human behavior (specifically psychology). All the points will hit. Interesting, no? Don't be alarmed. This condition, however severe, can often be successfully treated via therapy and education.
@@RobVespa "This condition...can often be successfully treated via therapy and education."
Ah, the excellency of faith!
That isn't what "chosen people" means. Now go and study.
@@AbbaKovner-gg9zp If you are claiming to be the expert, educate the rest of us, please. Provide us with cogent arguments for--and against, not just opinions or magical thinking, so that all of us collectively can come to a consensus and decide what it's supposed to mean. Otherwise, ...!
what a third rate discussion.
Baddiel? Who is pro jewish and anti Islamic?
"Evolution created god so living things enjoy a sense of purpose in life. I feel sure science will discover god as a universal imaginary friend, a mental health accessory, that gives pleasure and meaning, for example, allowing cows to lay in the shade half the day vomitting food to rechew without committing suicide. - Steampunk Mark Plimsoll"
Sometimes, cultural memes are not advantageous. But, some have proven that our minds have always been ripe for beliefs in some transcendental ideas. See Pascal Boyer. We are a complicated bunch.
It would be very difficult for science to be able to parse subjective experiences by anything other than surveys. Our experience of living is particularized to each individual. I have a "baby and bathwater" idea about religion. There is such thing as wisdom. There is wisdom in most religious traditions. Most of it is about humility, generosity of spirit, empathy toward the suffering, and maturity in the face of trouble. Heeding these things is worthwhile in my book. Don't throw everything out.
@@gooddaysahead1 Studying humans scientifically is IMPOSSIBLE. not even with identical twins (Sapolsky, Stanford Univ.) Keep those clowns OUT OF COURTS and do not let Judges pimp their pseudo-science "expert HEARSAY" due to lack of REAL EVIDENCE.
Remember Satanic Killings? Alien Abductions? Hypnotic Regressions?
Now we have Warschak promoting Family Bridges' $15,000 three day (3!) "reunification retreats" booked over a year in advance.... Quacks! Self-serving witchdoctors!
@@gooddaysahead1 religion is facile trot
@scambammer6102 Brilliant
I can’t deal with Ayoade’s consistent attempts at self degradation. His downplaying or ridiculing of what he says, is painfully self absorbed.
Religion and spirituality is needed not by all but by many people. It has been key to Western Civilisation.
Religion isn't needed by anyone. What's needed by all people are the appropriate tools required to address aspects of their lives that some instead use religion as a band-aid for.
While religion has been, via it's existence, a part of world history, it's not been key to any civilization. Religion has been detrimental to the advancement of humankind in every iteration. Religion is a construct manufactured by humankind to address the unknown in an unhealthy fashion. It was quickly adopted as a tool used to control and oppress.
If religion never existed, humankind would almost certainly be in a much better place today. I'm not aware of any positive argument for religion that isn't wholly superseded by a fact-based counterpart.
@@RobVespaAll modern progressive morals take root in religion. It’s a solid fact. Religion is definitely a human construct. It’s a set of distorted perceptions about God, who is so much beyond our modest intellectual capabilities. One doesn’t need a religion to believe. Only one who seeks finds. Knock and the door will open. Denial won’t lead you anywhere. God exists. You just haven’t found him yet. Keep searching.
@@artbasss - None of what you've written is true. It is not a "solid fact". God(s) do not exist. There is, in all of history, no evidence of God(s). Logic, critical thinking and all forms of rational thought and consideration supports there being no God(s). A need to have what God(s) represents is something that education and therapy can address. Doing so will allow you to contribute to and appreciate more of what life has to offer.
@@RobVespait is a solid historical fact. Educate yourself. Life offers you endlessly more when you see all people as potentially eternal souls and you act as if your actions have eternal consequences. All beings around you cease to be just coincidental mechanisms. Life acquires meaning and purpose. In your world results of your actions don’t mean anything. It doesn’t matter if you are a serial killer or mother Theresa, the Universe will become a dark cold void in the end. No matter what you do. Why bother then? It’s all pointless anyway. Just think about it in such scale. Why do you do good even knowing that life is meaningless? Where does this motivation come from?
@@RobVespa that expirement was done in the 20th century and it failed. Atheistic societies like the Khmer Rouge 1.5m to 3m dead, Mao's China 40m-80m dead, Stalin's Russia 30m dead. All deeply atheistic and departed from Christian ethics. Today's humanism is christian ethics without the God. I really you'd do well to stop talking about a topic you clearly know nothing about.
There a few things more irritating than a narcissist sitting in front of an audience reading his own book.
Masturbating in front of a mirror would be worse.
Don't watch it then?? It's clearly an event set up to publicise the book so safe to assume those attending are interested in the book. Plenty of other videos on UA-cam if you're not interested.
It's another form of his narcissistic love of his self voyeurism. Why flog the chicken neck in front of a mirror when he can flog the chicken in front of thousands.
Nobody else will flog his chicken. He will show you
@@asherkenton1200he's a pud, slovenly, pear shaped. Cliché.
The disheveled old rich gay man in librarian glasses with man-boobs is old hat. Same as his writing.
What a nice conversation (despite the topic, which could be construed as a waste of time, since the subject doesn't exist).
Spoiler: I imagine Mr. Baddiel is an atheist because he rightfully understands that there's no such thing as a supreme being(s). It sounds like the whole concept of this book, which may be entertaining, is an allusion delving into his own fears, flaws and lack of understanding. Therapy and education can address these.
Why would life be better is there were a supreme being? If Mr. Baddiel actually dove into the hypothesis that a god or gods existed rabbit hole, he'd come out terrified. Perhaps that's why he looks as if he's close to 60 years of age, despite only being 19. However, that doesn't sell books and he has a career to be mindful of.
As an aside, antisemitism is, today, used almost exclusively to describe discrimination against those identified as Jewish. This isn't accurate, as it describes a group of people of different races and ethnicities. The word Jewish is interesting, as many define it as a religion (primarily Judaism) and not a people. Granted, I'm not sure at what point a human, scientifically, stops being one thing (e.g., Jewish, German, Icelandic, Japanese), as the human race is becoming homogenous. Is this dog a schnauzer or a mutt? Where is the point of delineation?
Why do discussions such as this almost always include a theologian by default? They often don't contribute anything meaningful, at least not pertaining to their expertise, as their expertise doesn't exist (and is something that can be addressed, again, by education and therapy). I feel for those like Mr. Quash who, if they're genuine, have wasted their lives. Imagine what individuals in this predicament could've achieved had they not dedicated their lives to a bad fable. Imagine the number of individuals who've been, perhaps ironically, led into wasting their lives, as well.
Intelligence and religion. What a strange juxtaposition. Seems like an oxymoron.
Takeaway: The world needs more Richard Ayoade.
Yeah how bizarre that they've chosen a theologian to talk about the topic of God.
Also, theology is the study of religious belief not just the existence of God. Whether God exists or not, religious belief most certainly does and so too therefore does any expertise that they hold on that subject.
It would also be erroneous to assume that all theologians believe in God. I know of one prominent theologian who is an atheist.
The study of theology can be fascinating and insightful on a number of levels whether a believer or not. It can give insight into human pyschology, history and philosophy. To imply that there is nothing useful to be gained from theology is frankly dumb.
@@robertparker5347 - What you wrote is manipulative and makes it seem that I expressed things I didn't. It's also combative and rude. You've misunderstood what I've written, didn't read it or chose to ignore what I wrote and instead pursue belittling me. None of this reflects well on you and undermines anything you were attempting to relay.
To dispel the demons summoned by your writing: I don't believe it's bizarre that a theologian takes part in a discussion on religion. I know the definition of theology. I never questioned the existence of belief, only the object of select beliefs, which I don't question, but deny. I also question the existence of expertise on this or any subject for which expertise may exist. I don't assume that all theologians believe in god(s). I never implied or stated that there is nothing useful to be gained from theology.
As an aside, I agree that the study of theology can be fascinating. This is one reason why I studied theology in college and pursued further learning on my own.
@RobVespa I didn't misunderstand. You described the question of God and associated theological considerations a waste of time. You described the theologian as wasting his career. This certainly implies nothing is to be gained from theology. And if anyone is belittling, rude or condescending then its somebody telling people they've wasted their careers and lives pursuing or believing in something that is a waste of time.
I also find it interesting that a topic you think is a waste of time with an answer that is so obvious is, at the same time, one that philosophers have struggled with for centuries and which Einstein described as "the most difficult in the world" and a problem "too vast for our limited minds". Either your intelligence is vastly superior to those great minds or you have grossly oversimplified the topic.
@@robertparker5347 - If you didn't misunderstand what I wrote, you are intentionally misinterpreting what I write and fabricating things in order to suit an agenda (which may simply be irritating a stranger on the Internet or annoying someone who doesn't share your perspective). You've not contributed anything independently. You've only said things on my behalf, about me or what I've written in a derogatory fashion. This all fits comfortably under the umbrella of trolling.
Devoting one's life to something that doesn't exist and leading others to do the same is a complicated topic. It seems pointless and sad. It's also frustrating, maddening and countless other things.
Rather than address what you wrote and how I responded, you instead chose to again manipulate without providing anything to further a discussion, which is what I mistook your initial response for. I gave you the benefit of the doubt. How Thomas of me. That's no longer an issue.
Everything I wrote is boiled down. This is a comments section for a UA-cam video. This and my prior comment would be better suited in another forum/medium.
As mentioned before, the intersection of intellect and belief is a strange crossing. It does seem a waste that otherwise capable minds spent time pondering pointless propositions. There's no correlation between the tired tropes you brought up. Those are bad debate tactics.
These are things for you to consider (or not) to yourself: Why are you responding to me? What is your point? What is it that you want to communicate? Why haven't you done so? Why are you playing games? Why are you being manipulative? Why are you lying? What purpose does this serve?
The way you're behaving reminds me of a Sir Sic video. Please go on your merry way, refrain from responding and return to your bridge. I'm no longer feeding you. Peace be with you.
I think you need to learn a bit of self awareness. Describing what billions of people believe and live their lives in line with as wasting their lives and as pointless is tactless, inflammatory, polarising, combative and by its very definition trolling. It's also the antithesis of the tactful way the video addresses the topic which is with humility, sincerity and an understanding of other views.
As well as describing billions of people as wasting their lives and others who study it as wasting their lives, you've described me as a liar, manipulator, troll, rude, combative and belittling. Please don't lecture me on how to behave because all you seem to be able to do is throw out insults yourself. Again, worth looking in the mirror and reflecting.
The times wanted baddiel to write a second book deflecting the hideous actions of the people , he feels he needs to justify in his nauseating book.. Yes David. We enjoy it when Ur asleep to. Has this 'comedian' actually told a joke since the 90s man..?
Unsubscribed
lol literally nobody cares
I came when I read that.
@@markofsaltburnI hope you mean came to this UA-cam channel and not something else 😂
@@AbbaKovner-gg9zp you cared enough to comment, literally
Cope
fin·i·tude
/ˈfinəˌto͞od,ˈfīnəˌto͞od/

noun
FORMAL
the state of having limits or bounds.