Collision Between Two BNSF Railway Freight Trains
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- Опубліковано 9 лют 2015
- Board Meeting Animation - Collision Between Two BNSF Railway Freight Trains
Red Oak, Iowa
April 17, 2011
Presented April 24, 2012
This narrated animation displays the sequence of events leading up to the eastbound BNSF coal train collision with the rear end of a standing BNSF maintenance of way equipment train. The collision occurred near Red Oak, Iowa on April 17, 2011 at about 6:55 a.m. central daylight time. The animation begins approximately 15 minutes before the collision, when the BNSF maintenance of way equipment train stopped at CP McPherson, and the striking BNSF coal train was proceeding east on the same track about 3.7 miles behind. A series of still images steps through the events until the final minute before impact, which is then shown at real time to the point of impact. The animation then transitions to a post-accident photograph. The photograph was provided by the Red Oak Fire Department.
You know you have a sleep deprivation issue when you wake up and see that the other guy is asleep.
Seriously, there are a lot of occupations, some of which have the potential to be fatal, where the workers have sleep issues. We've known about this for decades if not over a century. Ask the parent of a new born child what it's like. It's actually a form of torture. What I would like to see is some policy makers getting forced into this kind of schedule for a few months and then see how they feel about it.
They must have fallen asleep. Notice that changes to the throttle only took place after the alerter alarmed.
Happened again, I think a year later, near Amarillo TX. 3 dead. They think the "fresh" crew went to sleep. They all died, plus one on the other train who tried to jump. Only that engineer survived.
or stay off cell phones?
@@robertbrown7917 no bruh
Here's a tidbit of info. The leaders Data box was destroyed. How did they know he hit the alerter. All the throttle and speed data was obtained from the 2nd motor.
@Ebenezer sasquatch all units would record the alerter if powered up. Which all would be unless dead,they would be at min idle providing compressor and dynamic to the head unit
Thats what happens when railroads work guys to death with no set schedule. Youre in a constant state of jet lag, its almost impossible to stay awake, the power is swaying side to side, the ties almost hypnotize you. I had engineers I worked with that would be fast asleep, but somehow automatically wake up just long enough to blow for a crossing then pass out again. I totally understand how they were both asleep, you wake up to the alerter, hit the button and youre right back out again. I blame the railroads for crap like this, they try to put off like they give guys enough rest in that if you work 6 days straight, youre supposed to get 2 days off, if you work 7 days straight youre supposed to get 3 days off, but that hardly ever happens. Theyll work you for 5 days, give you just enough time off (24 hours) for your starts (how many days in a row youve worked) to reset to 0, then at 24 hours and 1 second the phone goes off and youre right back to work. Your body can never adjust to it. Or they can low ball you even more, atleast they did on my line, if they inform you that theyre going to call you in on your rest before you go off duty for the day they dont have to give you your full 10 hour rest period, so you tie up and go home and 7 hours later the phone rings and youre back at it again. They expect you to work a 12 hour shift, then get a 10 hour rest period, and within that 10 hours your supposed to somehow eat, take a shower and a shit, pay bills, do laundry, mow the yard, spend time with the wife/husband, play with the kids and then oh yeah... sleep. All in 10 hours. It wouldnt be so bad if you could at least have 48 hours off. It boils our blood to see how much time and effort the government puts into figuring out how these accidents happen, but they always over look the fact that train crews are never fully rested, and the sad thing is us railroaders today have it waaaay "better" than the railroaders from just a decade or two ago. I knew guys who needed time off so badly they would purposely cause an incident, usually blowing through a switch to get a 10 day suspension so they could go home and fucking sleep. Your requests for days off are always denied, the majority of guys will never work for the railroad long enough to get enough seniority to actually be able to hold a bid job with days off, so they feel they have nowhere to turn when it comes to simply wanting to get a full nights rest without the phone going off. And because of that my fellow brothers have died.
I am retired now, but I know exactly what you are talking about. I worked for BN hauling coal out of the Powder River Basin (1976-1986). One year the coal business really picked up, but we were short-handed, so we were constantly working on our rest (both ends of the road). Also, they let it be known that we had to tie up showing only 11 hours and 59 minutes so that we could be called back on our 8 hours rest. One night I was running a set of empty coal hoppers to Gillette, WY and something caught my eye in the right-of-way: It was a HUGE rabbit, about 6' tall at the shoulder, and he was running right next to the locomotive cab--at 49mph!! I couldn't believe it, then I realized it couldn't be real--I was hallucinating from lack of sleep. Some friends of mine died that year--the crew on a following coal train fell asleep and rear-ended a stopped coal train. I had enough seniority, and soon bid out of that terminal.
Do you guys have a union or anything? Because somebody needs to make a simple rule that says when you request a day off, its granted. As long as its lets say 1 week out, it shouldn't even be at the railroads discretion. Because we know you are going to work all you can. So if you are asking for a break, its probably really badly needed.
Exactly right Matthew Robinson. I retired after 43 years, started out in '66 on the old Santa Fe as a switchman and retired in '09 as a conductor. I've been told they didn't hire us so we could lay off, they expected us to answer the bell. Middle of the night and the drone of the motors, didn't get your rest for whatever reason, maybe don't feel good, if anybody on freight says they never fell asleep, they are lying. Positive train control might help, but you still need 2 guys on the lead engine.
I just visited my older brother who works for UP and runs between Rocklin, Ca and Dunsmuir, Ca constantly. I was shocked to hear the stories of the endless supply of scary near miss incidents and the constant struggle against fatigue he and many others face. He told me a few weeks ago he had racked up over 90 hours in a 7 day stretch! So much at stake and it's a shame they have to work like that. My brother is a year older than I but he looks at least 10 years older with white hair...what's left.
Thank you, MR, for your insights. I thought one could sleep while the other was awake and then trade.You should send a letter to the NTSB.
Sorry for the deaths of the two coal train crew members.
It does seem obvious that the crew of the coal train was asleep. They were only responding to the alerter signal not waking up. As someone said here seems as though they also slept through the signal and so were not aware that they were in a, "line ahead potentially occupied, proceed at danger" signal area.
My only question is why wasn't the coal train crew alerted to the stopped MOW train long before they encountered it? Seems like they could have been warned when they start down that track that there was a train parked on the same track they were on.
It looks as though several failures occurred that lead to this fatal crash. The coal train crew weren't notified that a train was on their track. The coal train crew were beyond fatigued both serious problems to a transportation system. And what about dispatch what were they doing?
Just my two cents worth from a not being a railroader point of view.
"My only question is why wasn't the coal train crew alerted to the stopped MOW train long before they encountered it?" As an uninformed non-American, wouldn't the signals be that warning? I don't know how things are done there, but I'd assume that there's the assumption that the signals would be observed and reacted to appropriately?
Isnt there a safetymechanism that could have prevented all of this? Just asking
@@dragontouched6848 Hi Dragon, this is the problem - the crew (two members, one of which (the conductor) was on night shift for 4 days prior, so hopefully acclimated to a certain extent) by-passed an restricted (red light) intermediate grade signal, then the alerter (light signal in the cab followed by an auditory signal) was inactivated (reset) three times by the engineer (~ the locomotive operator/driver so to speak), neither crew member paid attention (or enough attention). Noteworthy was that the conductor was also qualified as engineer but she operated as "conductor" on this assignment. A restricted signal means limits the train speed and means that the engineer must be able to stop the train within a certain percentage of as far as he/she can see (speed and train manifest i.e. load considered). Both crew members were given the required "time off" before the accident. There are systems that will trigger a service brake application to a full stop if no response is received from the crew - some locomotives are so equipped but again, the system can be "reset" and/or "disabled" by the crew members. The problem for American/Canadian/Australian trains is that they can be very long (1, 2, up to 4 km long/2.4 mile long) because of the distance involved in our countries and can include 150~300 RR cars with several locomotives - to "automatically" stop such trains on a grade (like in this case) even though it is possible and rules say so, it can be dangerous and very hard to restart (on a grade, from a full stop). Both crew-members were obese, sedentary, one had high-blood pressure (treated), type II diabetes (controlled) but they did have up-to-date physical qualifications (they would not have been qualified for any military duties, even entry-level "grunt" duties). Hope it helps - we cannot "automate" everything. Ciao, L
@@lancelot1953 thanks for the insight
@@dragontouched6848 You are welcome, Ciao, L
This proves that a controlled crash is preferable to an uncontrolled crash thus reducing unnecessary expenses
That is a scary image
Slow speed, non-alert crew (probably sleeping), now they can sleep forever.
What I’ve learned from this video is that a train collision at 20mph has the equivalent force of a plane crashing at 200mph.
That is all.
What plane is only doing 200mph when it crashes? You've not learned anything from this video, you're just making up bullsh*t, talking utter crap, total bollocks!
Apparently if they would of had 7 more seconds the alerter was scheduled to go off again might of given them a chance to save themselves so sad never knew what hit them
useless without maybe 30 sec notice, otherwise all it does is lets them be aware of the inevitable.
23mph on a coal train with seven seconds is nowhere near enough time to react and get the train stopped
“would of had”?? What does this mean?
@@algrayson8965 Would of, the potential, to have in past tense. Would of had. "Instead had" also works.
That´s maybe a stupid question, but what´s the purpose of having restricted speed signaled on the grade signal ? Why would you want to let the trains come so close to each other, creating a potentially dangerous situation ? Why not just let the coal train sit in front of the grade signal showing stop until the MOW train cleared the block ?
denzzlinga you don't want him stopping with his whole train uphill. he might not get outta there if it clears.
I know Indian railways is bad but here they dont allow a train to pass a signal unless there is atleast 1 stop signal between them. so in situation like this the coal train would have never made it to the grade signal and would have been stopped at the signal before that.
What we call over here, "Permissive Block" working. It's never used on passenger carrying lines. You are authorised by the signaller to pass a red signal but MUST drive at a speed which will allow you to stop short of an obstruction.
Doesn't a lunar signal let you go only 15 mph because there is another train in that block?
@@sapper82 In Hungary, you can pass a red signal on a full white mast only (this would be one), max. speed is 15 km/h, but more like 13 or you go into emergency.
Same crap happen in Hinton ab . Fgt train ran a red , rear caboose guy didn't get a response on the radio from the loco,didn't pull the emergency cord.
Considering the low speed of the coal train at time of impact, I wasn't expecting to hear that 2 people were killed & then seeing the extensive damage! I figured they'd be safe inside the Locomotive as they look stronger than a tank.
The weight of 13,000 tons of coal is what pushed the train. Steel vs steel the railcars bodies are thicker than the steel of the cab
Considering the weight of the train, combined with the sudden acceleration from the weights transition from incline to decline, that sort of damage is to be expected. 10,000.x tonnes or more of coal, steel, and diesel fuel will build up plenty of momentum, even at the same speeds like this. It takes a hell of a lot for that much weight to come to a stop. Even with as little speed as that, there’s a lot of energy from the weight of that train, which will obliterate almost anything that’s in front of it.
No question they both were asleep. BN/BNSF 1978-2010.
What if you were told that the motor had work done to the exhaust prior and that the lead data recorder was destroyed in the wreck. 2nd motor was used for data. No way to know if the alerter was reset.
if 2 pilots can fall asleep for over an hour "flying" a
plane then ..... So the more & more we take away the actual physical part of flying or driving (any type of vehicle) the harder it will be for a human to maintain attention. ie: as the workload decreases, the more chance of boredom increases.
When the MOW train became visible to the freight train, could the freight train have braked enough to stop before hitting the MOW train?
I'm no expert, but traveling at 21 mph if the emergency brake would have been applied its possible, but not likely. The speed at impact would have been drastically reduced.
Well I think the driver was supposed to maintain 10MPH but at 20MPH I dont think he would have stopped it will all those cars on a don grade pushing from behind.
Crew fell asleep? No braking even when the stopped train was visible.
Robert Gift, yeah, all signs indicate a sleeping crew. There was extremely little activity as indicated by the throttle. They probably never even saw the proceed-at-danger.
I have a friend who works on a Maintenance of Way crew, and he said he’s had a couple of close calls like this. One of them resulted in a love tap 😂. No thanks to PTC. So much for the legally required system that has the added feature of stopping a train when it mows down a signal, or gets too close to what’s ahead of them 🫤. If the FRA would get off their butts and update regulations on the already outdated and obsolete “Positive Train Control”, the NTSB wouldn’t have to spend the $5.x they do on 25 year old game animations of the accidents 😭.
wonder if ntsb recommendation was to improve QoL standard for rail workers
They always seem to leave that one out...
Anybody know what the two airlines that were involved? Thanks!
🤥
isnt the anticlimber supposed to stop the cars from wedging up into the cab area?
I don't think that anti-climbers where a standard until after somepoint during the mid 1970's. Pictures of the original SD40s (not the SD40-2 from 1972-1986) lack the anti-climbers we see today. The SD50 Tester EMDX1983 seems to have an anti-climber built into the frame.
When the coal train hit the other train the rear car was a scorpion car. a car with a ramp lowered to load machinery. the impact flung the ramp over the locomotive cab lifting the scorpion car up with it.44 yrs almost all on work trains with bnsf
The last car might have been a clip car that would be like hitting nothing the pictures shown at work you could see the ramp.
Flat cars will climb... they are light.
@@bryanpiedramartel3742 and not of much use unless colliding with a vehicle that also has similar.
Why are there 2 trains on the same set of tracks with one being stopped?
They were both going the same direction, but the train ahead stopped (most likely because of traffic or maintenance). It's the same for cars on a two lane highway coming to a traffic light or flagman. One stops and the queue starts there.
The red signal was a permissive red, meaning he could pass it, but only at a speed where he could stop short of running into any obstruction. He didn't control his speed as he descended and failed to spot the obstruction in time (if at all). Fatigue, unchecked, *will* kill you.
As a train engineer in Europe, Croatia, even if you fall asleep the train goes into emergency braking. A so called "wake device" works on the principle that for 30-40 seconds you have to have the foot on the pedal of the device and release it for a second an keep it pressed again for 30-40 seconds, time depends how it's programmed. If you don't release it when you have to or keep it pressed for longer, a signal light on the dashboard followed by a beeping sound warns you for 4 seconds to react and if you don't react, train goes into emergency braking. You can not reset the "wake device" until the train fully stops. Device starts working on speeds greater than 10kph/6mph. So, no sleeping onboard our trains.
That the same thing as the "alerter" described in the video.
They had the dead man’s pedal you are talking about here for thirty years or so. Crews would rig it by sitting a lunch box or brake pad on it.
@@redrock717 .....and kill themselves in the process !
@@redrock717 LOL
I do not work for the railroad (railfan, actually) am also not a business magnate. But I wonder how many extra crews the financial losses resulting from this accident would buy? Not including the very high cost of loss of life. It just seems to me, with the amount of rail accidents that I see on here, SOMEONE would realize that additional crews would actually save lots of $$$.
The overhead in most jobs including insurance, training, work comp, RRRT, union and a myriad of other expenses make headcount more expensive than most other things. Until trains are automated completely in 30 years or less most industries will wring more out of existing employees.
Thrust me when I say that BNSF is a company that will step over a dollar to get to a dime. As a railroad wife I've pulled my hair out trying to figure out why they do what they do.
Coal train vs MOW train
In my opinion, this derailment was the fault of BNSF. We all sin, but some sins are worse than other sins, and the management at BNSF committed murder.
They were asleep. Operators know. They committed suicide.
You seam like that type of guy for calling a cop racist for doing anything
BNSF did nothing wrong The crew did
You dont fall asleep while driving a 18-wheeler\
Its the same thing you dont fall asleep on the lead loco of a train
I drive a public transit bus. We have fought and fought for reduced total hours per week. Since we get federal monies hours worked per week are UN REGULATED. Where if I was in a dump truck hauling Dirt I could not work the number of hours we work in our regular week. Unreal why the Feds will regulate the privet companies but when it is federal money the rules are tossed out the Window. It required the state of Oregon to step in and demand the company reduced the hours. But they leave in the line " not when an emergency is declared" then the hour restriction is removed. The company just has to say " its an emergency ". And that is it. Hour restriction is removed. The reason there is an emergency is because the company does not have enough operators to fill all their runs. That is not an emergency that is bad management. Sorry for venting but it is a sad truth how this company is allowed to be run.
Good point David sounds like a real problem here!
so at what point do we look at the switch operators who should HAVE SEEN the two trains on the same track well in advance AND call the cab (of the engine) and put that emergency stop in place..
BNSF has a call center.. and their engines have radios..
lol @ pay grades..
I'm not sure, but isn't it against the rules to just park a train on the mainline? in England it is, but still. couldn't they have at least put the stopped train in a siding?
The train wasn't parked as such, but stopped at a red signal. The report makes multiple mention of this, and is at www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RAR1202.pdf (see pages 11-13 [actual numbers 2-4] of the report).
Hi as fetchstix mentioned - the maintenance train had stopped because he was not clear to enter the next block was used (not cleared yet) - the mishap train did not obey the "restricted" intermediate signal which indicated slower speed and "be prepared to stop". In the US/Canada, all train traffic is "controlled" by territories (blocks) under centralized control centers - similar to Air Traffic Control, aided with computerized systems and sensors/signaling devices throughout the network - it is actually very well designed... until we add the human (error) element. Ciao, L
Thats a bnsf trainby kismet crash by two train are twin
How does that happen?
i think the trains collided
Was he sleep?
This is why we must ban trains and eliminate rail roads. Not to mention the environmental impact. How many birds nests were destroyed by the crash?
What's your solution to the movement of goods overland? Cows? Horses? Your own hubris and abject lack of common sense? Obviously the latter as there's lots of that!
@@johannesbols57 your lack of detecting sarcasm is astounding.
I don't understand the red signal. I thought that means STOP. I could see a yellow signal meaning go but slowly enough to stop, but not red. That just seems stupid. Why does it say a red signal allows you to proceed at 15 mph?
Nash1a, in United States Railroading, a full-stop signal is indicated by a top red light (on a three-light semaphore). This signal was bottom red, which means "line ahead _potentially_ occupied, proceed at danger". Proceeding at danger is equivalent to driving through a red light at a four-way with no traffic you can see and crawling along at ~10mph. From what I know (which may not be much), proceeding at danger should only be cleared with the local switchboard, but I don't know if this stretch of line had a switchboard active? The video doesn't really indicate.
Well, that's more than I knew. Thanks!
Nash1a also depends on the railroad and what governing system they run under. An absolute signal, usually at what's called a control point, would dictate that the train must stop at least 400 ft prior to the signal if the signal was red. There would also be intermediate signals between control points. A red aspect at this signal would be a Restricted Proceed. You could go by this signal but at restricted speed, being able to stop within half the range of vision. It also comes down to knowing your territory and what's ahead of you and your length. between These signals could be over 12000 ft. so two 5000 foot trains could fit in that space. It really comes down to being alert and knowledgeable in the area you work.
Scott Foresman, thank you for that. I forgot about domains of control.
Didn't you watch the video???? any signal with the letter "G: below it means it is on a up grade and the train can proceed through a red signal without stopping but at a speed where they can at the next signal if needed.
I knew them.
I have Zero knowledge about operating a train or the rules you have to follow but i am a lifeguard and whenever i get tired i stand because its pretty hard to fall asleep while standing why wouldn't operators do that? I am assuming the operators fell asleep.
Because they are worked into the ground. You don't understand the level of fatigue these guys suffer. The are walking zombies, they work on muscle memory and energy drinks and the company doesn't give a shit. They care more about the trains than the people driving them.
Jared, I worked overnights in a dry food warehouse. I was a picker driving a pallet jack, the kind you stand on. I literally fell asleep driving it - standing up. I woke up only because my hand relaxed on the throttle and when the pallet jack came to a stop, it had the soft jerk back motion of coming to a stop. I woke up with my head about a foot from a shelf beam. I quit the job that week before I got myself hurt or killed.
@@chrisalister2297 Pickers have a rough job. Associated Grocers here in town have a high turn over for that position. It pays bank, but its a job I'd never do. Plus AG is a suck bag company anyway
No clue. It can't Not be '. None it's not alerted ' even with monitors or satellite views ' hu!! How about that 🤔
I woulda jumped!
The results can be very bad when the engineers driving the train are not paying attention to what is happening.
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
When will locomotive occupants learn to sleep in shifts? Myvife sleeps as I drive, then I sleep ashe drives.
BNSF rules states that one (only one) crew-member can nap ONLY when the train is stopped - the other crew-member being "on watch". Underway, both operators must be "awake" and alert. Ciao, L
@@lancelot1953 Why does it take TWO peeps, other than specific circumstances, to operate a train nowadays? I mean 4 eyes are not going to see what two eyes can if the person awake is worth his salt...
@@charlesbukowski9836 Hi Charles, I understand your concerns - part of my career was to investigate accidents/mishaps from the human factors perspective. The sad part is that in most "mishaps", the human element is involved in ~85% of the chain of events. Airlines, truck companies, railroad networks, etc. all use people n some part of the operations. Some are your top performers (real pros, attentive, intelligent...), then you have the "middle of the pack", the average guy, and then you have the bottom of the barrel - the ones that struggled to make it or to maintain proficiency. Then you deal with unions (who in many cases base promotions on seniority as opposed to merit), affirmative action, government/company-imposed quotas usually on race and gender, etc... and finally, you have the economic reality i.e. the investors. Trains used to have a caboose (last car equipped with radios, brakes, ...), no more. The people that a company hires are part (a cut) of the American population, how selective can you be without having lawyers, government, unions, etc... getting into it. At the same time, you have to give people a chance (but the company should have a way to weed out the lower performers or transfer them to less demanding/critical jobs - it is very hard. Read my comments on the medical issues of the conductor and engineer (read the NTSB report), it is eye-opening! Sadly enough, the medical conditions/fitness status of the crew affects over half the American population!. It is very complex, may God help us, Ciao, L
PS: Look at the Lac Megantic train disaster where 47 people perished and part of a town was burned to the ground in the province of Quebec, Canada (just north of Maine) in 2013. It is very complex.
@@lancelot1953 How does Affirmative Action-Equal Opportunity come into play here? in some accidents... be honest....we just put a broad in a F35 and she crashed it like within a month..
@@charlesbukowski9836 Hi Charles - are you asking me about Affirmative Action/Equal Opportunity about this particular accident or in accidents mishaps in general? BTW, in railroad accidents, human factors are ~45%, aircraft mishap ~85 %, military aircraft ~85% (peace time), maritime ~70%, I am referring to major accidents, not small craft/car/boat... And yes, I will be honest - I have no axe to grind and part of my life was spent trying to save lives and/or prevent future accidents. Ciao, L
could you get another guy to talk or get him a glass of water or oil or something
SNOOZE, YOU LOSE!!
How that's a lotta damage
Can flex tape fix it?
its interesting to see that our urinals can flush automatically worldwide however trains cant apply breaks using sensors...
:'(
so your telling me that it takes 2 miniuts to sound the alerter and then 20 more seconds to put the loco into suppression, on top of that that train has already made impact. but the narrator is still relying on a alerter going off after the incident accrued, this is two funny too listion too. that equipment seemed to be on a curve, if this guy has ever been on a loco he would be surprised to see that equipment on a curve can be hard to distinguish which main that train would have been on. but the locomotive was on a restricting so where's the radio log from the crew members. alerters are not sufficient just alram clocks for the engineers to wake up and go back to sleep. because you can't fight sleep. but yet the big bad railroad corps run them day and night and point fingers the first instant things go wrong. bottom line lives where lost and that should have been a solid red signal but that g plate made it a grade I say dispatcher error that's too much for one person to take on the consist was on a grade and time is a issue and weight try stopping a loaded train on a grade. too close for comfort.
I'm not a railroad man so anything I ask is an attempt to learn Does not the federal government regulate train crew working hours to make sure this very thing does NOT happen? I know they oversee interstate truckers. Why not train crews?
@@graftonhale9746 yes! The government does regulate BUT the railroads have found ways to get around those Federal rules. I have 21+yrs as a switchman/conductor on a class 1.
oh ok
Me: *Narrator* On April 17th, 2011 after my birthday, 2 BNSF Freight Trains collided rear end at 6:55 a.m. and 4 seconds.
Warren Buffet prolly said, "Oy vay."
HAHAHAAH yeah
The alerter should pose a simple random math problem with a one-digit answer (2+3=?). No answer within 10 seconds applies the brakes. A wrong answer gets another question, and a second wrong answer or no answer within 5 seconds applies the brakes. Once the brakes are applied they can't be released until the train comes to a full stop. And have it automatically notify the dispatcher and big brother so the company has liability for whatever subsequently happens.
You're welcome. Next problem?
r/Iamverysmart material.
As an aside, what happens when the engineer is distracted entering the answer to 9 + 8 and doesn't see grandma step out in front of the train and she is hit?
Lawyer: Did you apply the emergency brakes before you hit her?
Engineer: No.
Lawyer: Why?
Engineer: I was busy answering a math question from the alertness device.
And then the company gets sued by grandma's family and they win.
@RoadhogTime13 obviously he's forgetting an important fact here if grandma steps in front, she's getting run over regardless at that distance, even low speed the train would run her over before actually stopping......and thats if the engineer even actually sees her and applies braking.....
@@WestAirAviation What if busy entering a math problem and hits the rear of a train same thing. Also what if alerter is defective going off and the crew becomes null to resetting it, almost like a habbit? why wouldnt train dispatcher just stop train before this in a safe location? Also if crew is tiered why not just let them have a small break?
@@keven7715 Yeah. The math problem solution is ridiculously poor. It's a little hilarious the OP comes off as so convinced of his own intelligence in suggesting it... ("next problem!" - Bloody idiot)
I need to be able to acknowledge the alerter while keeping my eyes out the window, especially in late night foggy rain with 10 feet visibility and a restricting on the signal.
I can't be head down doing math problems while approaching a road crossing or station where someone might jump.
In fact, at my rail road the touch-screens on the LCD's are very hard to use. Sometimes it'll just stop detecting your button presses and you'll have to wait a minute or two until it will detect your finger again.
The most common sense solution to engineers sleeping on the job is to have another person up their with them, or even easier: Just enact the same hours of service system (Flight Duty Period Rest Requirements) that is mandated by the FAA for Part 141 Airline Crews.
It's odd you dont hear about this in election politics. I guess they dont care.
Looks Like They We're Former Swift Drivers
Man if I was the crew of the BNSF freight train, I would've reduced the throttle to zero and pulled the emergency brake. Why didn't they do it? they had plenty of space.
Onii Fam because they were asleep...
By the way the e brake kills your throttle for you
if they were asleep... why did they change the throttle 3 times during a mile stretch??? the gooberment initiated a PTC which means positive train control, which means train crews have to be extra vigilant to make sure their remote control engines don't screw up... ptc should have put the train into emergency if it got too close... guess what, it DOESN'T WORK!!!
heavylead1961 alerter "wakes" you up intermittently...You might move the throttle but clearly he didn't remember what signal he was running on because he was still pretty much asleep
are you sure he wasn't drunk or smoking weed???
heavylead1961 I highly highly doubt it
why didn't he slow down, he had PLENTY of space too.
No, the train would not derail from brake application and slowing down.
MINEMICS is_not_pleased The train would not derail from brake application and slowing down.
MINEMICS is_not_pleased Trains often have too much mass to stop in time. Also steel wheels on steel rails have poor adhesion
so the wheels may slide on the rails.
By the time a vehicle is seen stopped on the track it is often too late to stop.
Plus, when the wheels lock up and slide due to an extreme brake application, it can actually take longer to stop because a micron thick layer of steel in the wheel rim melts and acts as a lubricant.
Tribology is a rather interesting topic.
sapper82 The brakes are adjusted so that in full emergency braking, they do not stop the wheels from turning and cause the wheels to slide. Sliding wheels also causes flat spots on the wheels, which, if severe enough, necessitates replacing the wheels (axles).
Coal kills again.
no coal is gold
So how long did these guys get in prison? Look, there are thousands of robotically controlled systems which would have seen the stopped train ahead, and automatically stopped the train. If you are controlling a train, the instant both engineers fall asleep, the train should stop as fast as is safely possible. No matter what the circumstance, SOMEONE SHOULD HAVE GONE TO PRISON! All aircraft have radar. A FLIR (forward looking infra-red) system, in tandem with a computer, should have stopped that train safely. Defaults would have been--1. Both engineers asleep 2. Obstructed track ahead 3. Speed in excess of track terrain.
They're dead you dumbass
Appreciate your thinking it through, Doogie, but yeah, fatal is fatal. With the present tech that is implemented, a train can't know you're asleep or merely waiting to do something. The Alerter is set to go off at a random interval to check the crew's alertness, but, because it was *just* a little too much time in this one instance. Instituting better service time regulations (how often and how long a crew can work) so that crews are rested and ready would have saved their lives and who knows how many others.
I took a more serious attitude running engineering experiments 12 hours a day AND before that I worked with high voltage and huge equipment working in small underground spaces in coal mine 6 years. Never would be so casual to kill myself.
If the trains were automated and a accident happened that killed or hurt people, people would just say " why wasn't someone on the train to oversee the computer". The problem isn't to automate or not , the problem is the railroad runs their employees into the ground until they're basically caffeinated zombies and can't function. It really is an aweful job. The life expectancy for a railroader after retirement is only five years. If they could stop fucking over their employees the number of accidents would go down to around zero. And I don't mean just working them into the ground, the company fucks with their pay, their retirement, their medical, because everything works on contracts and sometimes the company just decides it doesn't want to follow the contract it signed. But when it's good it's a great job to have, it's one of the highest paying jobs one can get with a high school diploma.
Putting dead bodies in prison serves no purpose.
Two man crews are useless. Demand one man crews. Stop democrats and unions from holding profitability hostage.