Analog Summing with the Soundcraft Signature 12 MTK
Вставка
- Опубліковано 16 жов 2024
- Trying to find out if analog summing is any better (or different) than its digital counterpart. Or if I'm doing it right at all. Let's find out!
Audio Files : / analog-summing-test
Instagram @dirtbirdmusic
Website: dirtbirdmusic.com
Twitch : dirtbird93
TikTok: dirtbirdmusic
It's when you push things that the magic happens at analog stuff.
The reason it is quite is 0 ZERO on an analog mixer is equal to -18 in your DAWs digital mixer. So the way you would explain this is 0 VU (on a Vu meter) is equal to -18 DBFS in your DAW. Funny thing most engineers who have never worked in a true hybrid fashion may not know, 90% of the plugins that emulate analog hardware like UAD, Waves, and many others have the same loudness issue. Most analog emulation plugins expect to see nothing louder than 0 VU or -18 dbfs and sure they can work at louder levels but the emulated distortion of the unit is meant to kick in above -18dbfs or 0VU. So a plugin like the waves CLA2A is adding unwanted or "maybe you want it's" distortion to tracks above -18. So if an ultra clean mix is what you are looking for mix low with emulation plugins but if you like the saturation of driving a circuit then by all means push it. But for some stupid reason when digital became the normal recording method companies ditched VU meters for DBFS so they could say that digital has way more headroom and dynamic range but in practice no one cared about that, they just wanted mixes that were as loud as radio singles. So back when I started guys were pushing ADAT machines to the brink of destruction just to get a loud mix. Digital caused the loudness wars LOL. There were lies told in mix magazine and other places that you were wasting bits in a digital recorder like an ADAT if you recorded low, which now we know was wrong. They equated loudness with bit depth, and since those old ADAT machines were 16 bit and 32K sampling rate in early machines mixes that were too loud sounded awful and even when we moved to better machines and then DAWs it seems no one is teaching proper gain staging in DAWs now days. It’s sad because your mix will sound a lot better if you mix it low (since the noise floor is not a factor anymore) and then push up the level at the mastering stage. 90% of young engineers I get to work with have way better mixes by mixing to VU meters as compared to DAW meters. Great video! Cheers!
Thanks for the info. It’s opened up more questions for me now.
@@corban48 Anytime!
Great explanation of the misunderstanding between Digital and Analogue worlds, thank you.
This tidbit is GOLD. Excuse me while I go back to gain stage everything again.
Great answer. I use this board due to the simplicity of the setup, and the price. I am old school (started recording on reel-to-reel) and I don’t miss ADAT at all, and would have loved to had this kind of technology back then. The only thing I wish this board had is dedicated left and right out for subs (XLR). I have a work around, but that would have been nice.
With my Soundcraft MTK 12 I like the sound of summing much better. It has given me the sound that I've always wanted that I couldn't get just in the box.
digitally summed : 10:47
analogically summed : 11:35
There’s was definitely more Depth on the analog version. The volume is lower on the analog because most mixers have a -6db headroom built in. This is to prevent clipping and distortion. what your experiencing with the volume is actually very common. I personally prefer the analog version
Nice video. Thank you.
To get your levels higher when summing on this mixer you need to send them to groups 1-2 and master and turn those faders up. You may need to turn your monitors down.
The mixer allows for some headroom to allow compression and mastering on your final mix.
Awesome thank you!
It’s true that by sending to groups 1-2 as well as to the master, you can add the -6dB lost through the boards inbuilt reduction to avoid clipping, to the final master out; instead of adding this makeup after the fact in the box. This adds an extra layer of analogue saturation or color
Analog sounds warmer coming through my phone… but its all on what you want at the end of the day… love your beat… salute.
Basically, -18dbfs means 0db on analog world, so you need to compensate this volume, or just leave the headroom for the masters work, but the louder the better is an acknowledged mistake nowadays... Great video!
I found out that these are the most affordable and efficient way to get that analog vibe and glue to your mix. The mixer sounds pretty transparent and it glued the tracks like a mild tape compression. I’m doing the same thang with Tascam 12.
Yeah I’ll looking at the T 12
For those who would like to know what to listen for- listen to the 808 ‘snare’ and the guitar melody.
What I found is that the snare is pushed way forward on the summer version and really reaches out and grabs the listener. The guitar also pops out and is way more animated and dynamic.
Nice beat!
Analog version added more warm and gave the mix more width. Analog sounded better to me
I have the MTK 22. Your level was low because you didn’t route the faders to group 1-2 along with master. Your print will have a better crest (more saturation).
(Analog took me more practice/experience to get good at than digital.)
do you route all tracks to group 1,2 and master and then just reroute group1,2 to master ?
@@olliewicks5317 no right or wrong way, really. But the point is that you want to run as many stereo tracks to the master-out, as you can.
I usually run 2 (or more) extra stereo tracks.
Have fun experimenting!
I assume this is for saturation
I may be wrong, but I get the impression that there are some weird phase issues with analog summing in the subbass range. The subbass is also much weaker.
In my case, I use Acustica Audio on each track after I track it out with eqing and compression in DAW then combine acustica audio and my own hardware looping through pipeline "my analog rack" on the way out then bring each Acustica Audio, Analog and Digital Fused Track back into daw, final level out, final Acustica Audio Strip on out bus.....print out full mix.....
that process in Studio One would give you a bigger and more analog Sound
found the analog version more clear and i liked that
Try running 8 outs with actual audio cables and drive those mixer channels somewhat harder to the point they clip but lower the fader to get the same net volume. I love my mpc driving its channel and bass too. Other instruments I am more restrained on. I am hobbyist and not a professional but I enjoy that sound. That’s what music used to sound like in the 90s to my ears.
Do you recommend this mixer for professional recording?
Excuse me for maybe asking an obvious question, but is there any way you can have a separate effect for each individual channel on this board? like "tape echo" on the snare, whilst the hi-hat & bass drum stay dry etc? Any tips/solutions would be highly appreciated. Cheers
I think you can only use one effect on the board at a time. And unfortunately there are no inserts on the channel strips to use outboard effects units either. You can use the usb return on the tracks to effectively use your daw effects and plugins and send the audio back into the board. Hope that helps/ makes sense!
The mixer has 5 aux send that can be sent to deferent fx. 2 of the sends control the onboard fx or external fx so the answer is yes up to 5 fx on any channel
@@sidewalkvids please compare this to the tascam 12, and whether you can record in your DAW post fx in their individual tracks or only as a stereo master? This is the main function i want my mixer to do
@@BkuBrown yes you can record the individual channel’s directly to your daw and have them returned to what ever channel on the mixer. I had the bigger model which I had to return because of a problem it had that seems quite common when I investigated it. I haven’t had any experience with the Tascam model but I didn’t go for it because I needed more sends
It has a memory for every channel or It had to be connected to work ? It works stand alone ? Is there a play stop button ? They play in Sync automatically ? Thanks
Listening on AirPod max headphones , the mixing board print I cannot hear the rumble from the kick that is prominent in the first print.
Is this because of the level or is the mixer rolling off those frequencies (which I think is part of the reason for summing , (it takes those edges off)
But I will say, this sounds better than my Mackie....getting my Sound Craft on the 17th....Im super excited
As also others stated, to my ears the analog summed mix sounds more glued together and rounder. I guess every mastering engineer would prefer it. I don't own the mixer yet (I however ordered one), but from what I heard and read and now also could listen at here this is one sensational product not only for the price. I always loved Soundcraft mixers. I still have an RP28 from the 90s made in England whose preamps aren't far away from API 512c. But this one costed around $2500 then, and didn't have sweepable mids. And now such a package including multichannel-audio-interface and even lexicon effects for around $500. That's really unbelievable!
Hi question you may be able to answer - I originally wanted a soundcraft spirit 24 ch, but its hard to find locally. So I wonder if you would know given your history with soundcraft mixers, if an LX7 would be just as good? Right now a LX7 and a Series 200B 16-Channel 4-Buss is available locally. I don't know how they sound or compare but I honestly don't want it to sound too different from the spirit since this is the sound I am after, or as close as possible. Any suggestions? Even this mtk mixer, would that have an oldschool analog soundcraft sound or is it soo much different that it can't be compared to those older ones? Which of those would you recommend if I can't get the spirit? It's for sending in synths in studio and I only have a UAD arrow right now with 1 stereo input, so my idea is to take the master out of the mixer (spirit, lx7 or whatever I end up with) and directly into the UAD. Cheers!
Stupid question maybe?1 but.. Can I send (all through usb) an external instrument into my daw from example channel 1 to apply an effect chain and then send it back on the same channel to then send it back to the daw again for multitrack recording (not summing as shown in video) ? or would i have to send it to another channel?
This channel is underrated
Sorry to sound silly, but I always thought that USB recording could only send to two separate tracks of a DAW by panning one channel left, and the other right. But is it true that this mixer can send 12 channels of recording separately and simultaneously to separate tracks in a DAW. Like my Mackie Onyx Firewire mixer could do. And those recorded tracks can be individually mastered for mixing down to one track.
@@emilloffler1216 this mixer can send individual tracks to the DAW over USB
Oh well, I messed up by buying the Mackie Onyx 12 in late 2022. which has only 2 outs for individual track recording. I always thought USB could only do 2 outs to separate tracks. But maybe this Soundcraft mixer was only manufactured after that.
Hey man!
I'm confused bet the soundcraft Signature 12MTK vs yamaha MG16XU. Which would you suggest.
I need it for Church, live!
Hey good afternoon. On this table I have a doubt I am using the AUX 1 output to use as a headphone return. Is this output stereo? I connected a P10 stereo cable to my headphone jack which is on the battery, but everything comes out in mono. Thanks in advance for your attention, God bless.
Thank you!
You should overdrive each channel on analogue higher outpu signal plus add some saturatio, the Soundcrart Ghosr pream p design like that. Ghost is vibtage Souncraft mixer the MTK mixer uses that circuits!
They sound the same to me. The eq on the on the mixer is good. I bought mine for multiple inputs. I have a lot of external synths.
Smashing the gain on on the mixer with the compressor switched on sounds awesome on 808s etc.
Not sure if that's an option on the 12mtk.
On the 24 mtk individual channels from the daw can be routed out to individual channels .
Probs not worth the hassle if your only tracking guitar.
I probs wouldn't use the mixer for summing. Just for the eq on the way in.
both sound good .
Awsome!!! I like summing sound!
Thank you for sharing this video>
? Can you help I have my song in reason mixing threw a soundcraft mixer I'm trying to sum or print a two track back into reasons How do I set this up If I'm making myself clear please
Great video. There’s a definite difference on the analog. There seems to be a slight but noticeable veil over the ITB summed version.
Hi, do you know whether it is possible to use FX1 /AUX3 in same way as AUX1-2?normal Monitor. So that you can monitoring with 3 AUX (one is FX). Thanks
3:14 i see a glitch in the matrix
Hi! Do you have any compatibility issues with Mac OS Ventura? Are you using Mac M1 processor?
I haven’t used this unit with an M1 Mac yet I’m not sure if there are any compatibility issues or not
@@dirtbirdmusic would you please tell me what MacOs version are you using?
Thanks!
oooh also very keen to know this! researching a new mixer/interface after my firewire mackie onyx is no longer supported for core audio :( anyone else know if soundcraft works with ventura?!
Cool. 😎. I do use a software summing plugin called Waves NLS and I use the Neve setting on all.
I’ve been using the waves NLS a lot lately I love it. That neve setting is 🔥🔥
The Summing accessory hype is like the funeral industry saying you are required to buy a useless vault to cover your over priced coffin to protect your valueless carcass.
What is your audio device in Ableton? Are you using a PC or Mac? I had trouble with Soundcraft MTK-12 and Ableton on a PC
I’m using a Mac
Great ! Thanks ! Do you know if it works with Luna ?
I assume so, but I don’t have Luna so I’m not sure
So, the real deal with summing that is the big deal is that when its done on certain legacy consoles like a Neve from the 70s, it causes a certain phasing affect because analog channels are all different from one another... or not precisely exact in their individual gain stages and eq. This is a decoupling that occurs and makes your mix sound much wider and richer in the stereo field and harmonic spectrum. Depending on your consoles design, some deliberately make use of a certain amount of harmonic distortion to help glue tracks together . Waves and Universal Audio make plugins designed to exploit this very technique. Its not actually common in mixdown as much as the mixing process in general... summing multiple drum tracks to one single stereo fader so as to simplify a particular step of mixing ... which is a linear process... not the same as tracking. YES, it IS INTEGRAL to audio engineering if you want to be on par with world class producers skill level and YES ABSOLUTELY it makes a HUGE difference to the quality of a mix. It has to be done right, However and gear does matter.... 500 series rack or a good console. Soundcraft? I have no experience with but I do with MIDAS and XENYX.
May be better if you sum the drums first to a single stereo track and then put it back in with the rest of the instruments on seperate channels for a second summing. I would imagine there is some compromise with your current setup as you already introduce some digital summing by combining the 808/kicks and hats/clap/vocal digitally. A limitation of 12 track mixers as opposed to a 22
analog summing is wider in the stereo field and warmer
Sent mtk 12 master out xlrs
Into another soundcarts input for recording (not directly to the speakers)
Then record the proper analog signal FROM THAT SECOMD SOUNDCARD WHICH HAS THE SPEAKERS ON
Now you have THE analog sound YOU LOOKING FOR
CHEERS
Can you elaborate a little more on what you described please? My Soundcraft's USB level used to print a master track drops. I don't know what i'm doing but I was almost thinking about sending the master out to a new interface (Saffire Pro40) to get a louder WAV file.
can this user be used in standalone mode so i can actually connect the mtk's master out into my UAD arrow which only has one stereo input? Or would that not make sense since the mtk has built in soundcard? thanks!
Dope track 🔥
Thank you!
Hi thank U for this tuto I'm serching how to record in pre master mode because in lise session if I need to play louder it change the level of the signals in abletune do anybody can help me ? THK
Analog has more depth, width and great tone.warm, round sound.Every instrument has it's own place inside the mix.if listen to the guitar more deeply it goes little bit back and drums stay front(this make sense when listen to the music).more pleasure to listen.that's the thing that analog can do to the mix. Good try brother.! Use a DI box and send line out(Master out) to the DI Box Patch it into the mic pre on soundcraft, Tweak the gain little bit (add bit of analog saturation).[an Another trick that I found make another crazy analog sound] Greate video! thanks.
Analog 0 dbfs is digital -18 dbfs...that's why your mix is louder in digital
And keep up the good work!
Thanks for the video, great fun sharing from your experience. This is a great time to learn about music production mixing sound engineering. People like to share there experience and hopefully someone gains more knowledge from this. if you need to increase viewer traffic can i make a couple of suggestions without being negetive. Critique your work first before uploading, some helpful tips that go a long way is structure the content to flow unless your just tubing to friends who need a one on one. But more importantly listen to the final output of your production when using background music either reduce a few more notches or use ducking techniques. It's a valuable tip but an important one. Keep in mind what your viewer is looking at such as the background the light source and especially the foreground it all adds up to having your viewers return in general. A good example is have a textured curtain in the background so it looks like a studio not your bedroom yeh i know it sounds bad but add a warm glowing lamp shade in the darker corner try to positon yourself in better light so less shadows on your face and when framing your camera be mindful of your mic placement like your h5 it tends to distract the viewer. Again this is only meant to be positive suggestions to allow your channel to grow if that's what your looking for.
okkkaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy
Analog WAY warmer kick and the sub bass also overall warmer than digital. Will someone here please let me know if you can help me via zoom to get my MTK setup properly? I watched videos but still have not got it…embarrassing but true.
The mixer to me is better I think and you have a lot more head room if you eq it to taste you might like it better
Great video ! Keep it up 💯
Thank you!
Try sending in your signal 🔥
Analog better seperation, better more glue, more musical kick, too up front needs taming but digital more tight but lack luster. with the anolog i feel you got more work room the digital feels like it been over worked.
and you fucked up the test as most do..WE NEED A RAW TEST!
And what about effects????
I use a Tascam Model 16 in the same way for summing, and it definitely sounds wider and deeper. Also -18 digital is equal to 0 analog.
Would you mind explaining your process. I’m stuck deciding between the model 16 for its analog mixer and the model 12 for its midi/daw control. I have a soundcraft signature 10 which is an analog mixer but doesn’t have multitrack usb recording so summing on it doesn’t seem very likely.
Do you use the mixer like it’s own instrument? Fading and eqing as the recording is being played back?
@@bgoumas I use a combination of Tascam 16 and Faderport 8. Faderport 8 is for DAW control I use this for faders on individual tracks, controlling sends and FX and also writing automation. I send all of my busses through the Tascam Model 16, where I do use the EQ on the channels and sometimes on the Master bus.
I also use the Tascam for dub mixing with a Tape Echo and Spring Tank on the aux sends.
@@NoQualmsTheArtist hmm interesting, can’t you use the model 16 to control the faders if you assign each track to the mixer? Allowing you to write automation on the fly in the daw?
@@bgoumas no it is just an analog mixer. It just happens to also be a 16 channel in/out interface. So you don't need to spend $3000 on an interface with DB25 connectors to run from your computer to an analog console.
But you have to choose between multitrack recording or multitrack playback/mixing, you can't do both at the same time. You can only record the Master bus back into your computer when mixing.
If you want to record the multitrack back into your computer you will need to spend a lot more money and buy a large format console and a breakout box with enough channels, much like traditional studios.
Working in this price range you will have to pick your compromise.
@@NoQualmsTheArtist the tascam 12 better for multitrack recording as opposed to mixing i presume
I love this mixer, in my channel you can see it in action live with Ableton Live from my studio. Regards 😉
it costs about $3k for the dangerous 2 bus plus
With all due respect, If you're using a usb cable to from the computer to the "analog mixer" isn't that a digital mix? Isn't the music passing through the digital usb cable? The usb hub is a digital peripheral...If you're not using the quarter inch analog inputs, then, you, sir, have a digital mix....if you're using that usb cable, that is.
No different to recording Foo Fighters, Eminem or Pink. Once they record to Protools, its digital, routing back out to the desk.
Essentially you are using the analogue mixer as outboard gear for your DAW you bring it back into the DAW like an insert for outboard gear like on an analogue mixer.
@@KaceyBakerFilms
True, but kinda destroys the point of having a analog mixer, don't you think?
@@seanwalsh999
But if logic dictates, the mix passing through the usb cable is digital...using the analog inputs is a different story, altogether.
@@morenazo6412 Essentially the out board gear is just adding color, yes it is all digital in the end.
those 808s sound well off my bro
No its wrong I have one you have Input level as well as output level
Pipeline in Studio one would do a better Job
You could have exported each track through pipeline looping through your gear
"In my case"
I am not sure if it is truly analog summing without passing through the actual physical channel. USB is digital so I am not sure where the analog circuitry was truly passed though unless I am missing something....
It passes through the EQ controls and the channel faders and the effects if you want, then onto the master fader.
Was thinking the same… During the first step of sending the tracks of Ableton trough USB Im wondering if there’s not a conversation. I would have take outputs from my sound card that goes inside the inputs of the sound craft and then records the master output of the soundcraft. Someone knows if it affects the sound using usb instead of audio outputs of the mixers ? Thankss
@@vpetroi3 Take the analogue out puts from your audio interface and plug them into your Soundcraft, now you can control the gain, then EQ, and add effects if you want, then record in Ableton using the USB out put of the soundcraft, the problem comes when you have two different sound drivers in Ableton you must set up the different digital inputs in the windows driver menu. You can over drive the gain of the audio transformers in the Soundcraft and that is what a lot of people are looking for, they call it saturation, there are plug-ins that try to duplicate this type of low level analogue distortion, me I only like distortion on loud guitars, every thing else I want clean as possible, if I need warmth I just add some EQ.
@@vpetroi3 I am doing that now. I am coming out of a Antelope audio Zen Tour via 8 db25 to 8 analog outputs to Behringer 8 channel rack mixer to TC Electronics Finalizer which then goes back in via SPDIF into the Antelope Audio Zen Tour. The summing and more importantly, the stereo field is very noticeable is what I am use to with studio analog mixers. It is very analog and pleasing to the ear.
This is a complicated board, read the manual on routing.
i prefer analogically summed track.
its more..... nice.
The Analogue sounds more like music. Has a human touch somehow.
Detorsion
@@jjjjj2220 I think you mean to say distortion, a form of natural harmonic content produced when favorable conditions exist. The word you wrote is waaay too close to a medical term used to describe testicular torsion or twisted nut veins, a mildly humorous possible name for a band, likely a punk rock band. “Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the stage, Testicular Torsion!!” “T T, T T, T T, whheeeew!”
LOL sorry so, I don't understand why you judge the analog mix... you don't use your eye... use your ears... your ears are not trained.... see how the transients in the analog mix have less amplitude ? All the sonic content moved way up the harmonic spectrum. It has a much more airy quality with a much softer clip.Wider, too. This kind of thing is not going to be instantly gratifying. It takes many years to develop mixing technique. I, personally think you have a nice piece of gear with Soundcraft... I think I'm going with that desk. I was online looking for examples of its summing capability (shopping BUDGET minded with MUST HAVE features) which you should not take for granted in its price range! literally no other company I found so far giving the buyer those kind of flexible features... beleive me when I say that those perks on your SC desk are very sought after and unheard of at the price you paid. Thanks for making this video! It was a shot in the dark to hear any examples of the summing... no one would ever bother make such content and it defiantly sold me for one of those mixers! Its a shame you don't see (hear) what I see in it.
I’m glad the video was helpful in some way! It’s been a while since making this video and I’ve learned a lot since then and could have definitely done things much better.
This mixer is digital
Just double checked soundcraft’s website to be sure. It is indeed an analog mixer.
@@dirtbirdmusic Yeah...that s what they say true....But this must have ADCs surely and that s digital....The true analogue mixers of soundcraft like FX16, and others don t even have a usb port ;).....Whatever, I settled down 2 yrs ago on a 24UIr....and I quite like it ;) Thx ;)
@@gibson2623 definitely has adc for usb functionality and effects are digital but the mixer functions are analog I guess
@@dirtbirdmusic Yeah, I undertstand. If I was going for an analogue, i d definitly get a proper analogue one, I see this thingy as hybrid, but i get your point, sure, mate ;)
Analog
biased af too!
🤍
Prefer analog. Thanks
I hate to break it to you all..but the only thing that analog summing add is it vost more money for a other pointles D/A converstion.
Wich DEGRADE the signal.
This trend only come for a lack of education i guess.
U can add all the color you want these day in the box wiyhout a other A/D D/A
Why don’t you figure out how to use your equipment before you post a video on youtube