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I Missed Light Magic Overpowering dark magic, and Regular Magic Overpowering light magic and Dark Magic Overpowering Regular Magic.. Trivia: According Telluis Recollection Water Magic and Dark Magic Was Forbidden to Be Studied due Religious connections to Ashruna Flooding The World...Water Magic Represented Ashruna Miraculous power and Dark Magic being forbidden Because Of How Yune was Slandered and Labeled A Dark God. So originally there was five types of magic In Telluis Series. Light, Dark, Water, Fire, Wind, and Thunder. It would be nice Add New Type Of Magic Being Water Magic as Lost Art being Rediscovered and appreciated When Ashruna appear 1200 Years laterTo Stop War in Telluis
The real root of the issue is that all mages get built basically the same, if we had a few more mages (or mage classes) that traded some resistance for better defense or something it would help a lot I've been hoping for a Mage Armor for years because we've never really gotten one, and not one at all in Modern Fire Emblem
The closest thing we have to a mage armor is a Cipher exclusive character that is shown using magic in 1 card, his name is Valjean and he's awesome btw.
I'm thinking something akin to a magical counterpart to the likes of Swordmaster could shake things up - a high-speed magic class that has low res in exchange, something you'll want to use other mages against because they have the res to not take too much damage from being doubled, while can still put on the hurt themselves despite only getting one swing in.
What was the game that had decent HP and Defenses on Dark Mages?. Cannot remember but they can totally work. I think it actually has been done this way already, but what I would like is: Dark Mages: Decent HP and Defense and the highest Magic, Magical equivalent of Axes. Light Mages: High Speed, Luck and Res, equivalent of Swords. Anima Mages: In-between, equivalent of Lances. With each unit having their own capabilities too, which may be more important than ever if something like Engage classes become the standard in the future (Classic gameplay can get a higher variety of units too, is just that it refuses to make Physical units with high Res besides Pegasus and Magical units tanky).
@@gicrueldad9520 They tried doing this in the GBA games, but the differences were way more downplayed than with sword/axe/lance classes, which is what I propose and honestly think we need to try doing more
Like if you look at PoR Soren ilyana and tormod, who are wind mage, thunder mage and fire mage respectively, they are essentially just mages in the end.
I will say it . Tellius had the bestagic triangle . All tomes were effective against something, and they feel natural . I don't know if it's weird or not but having a class for each element feels normal . But I do think they should have differences in stat distribution to make them all feel different. I'm one of people that want the Trinity of magic back in the game
@@aureliodeprimus8018 Something like the Dreadfighters on Gaiden/SoV? like Swordmasters, slightly less fast (but fast enough to double mages) with very high Resistance
I don't think I've ever seen Micaiah struggle in mage v mage. We're talking about a character with 80% magic growth and 90% resistance growth. She's practically immune to magic attacks assuming you're keeping her caught up in levels
And idea i had for this problem was just... adding more types of magic, and making mages/spells more differentiated. Anima mages are the strongest magic wise, light mages are res tanks, dark mages have the best defense. Anima is powerful, plentiful, and balanced. Light is very accurte and have positive effects on your party and the user. Dark has the most might, but is also the most weight. It also debuffs the enemy. I also think adding a new type entirely would be neat. Maybe like nature magic? Or a special type that every spell caster can use???
While I love the idea of the magic triangle it’s got such a huge flaw because all the mages are practically the same stat wise. It’s like if the weapon triangle only had armor knights, advantages don’t matter by that point everyone’s dealing chip damage. If mages had more differences in their stats, had more class variety in general, and had more enemy variety instead of mages early game, druids endgame and nothing else, then the magic triangle could be an amazing system. Also more spell variety, stuff like a beast killer spell, or a spell that hit defense. Stuff like that could allow the magic triangle to open up more to be more on level with the weapon triangle
Wait, is light magic really strong against dark magic in FE4 and FE5? As I check the wiki and serenes forest page, they seem to be neutral against each other
i think magic is at its best in Three Houses: it doesn't have the magic trinity, but magic still feels diverse and unique, having tons of special effects and ways to mesh into unit customization. i personally hate the way Engage does magic, because it feels so boring to just have it be only anima across the board. it would be so much cooler if, like in three houses, light magic had utility and dark magic provided special effects. really makes magic feel like more than just another type of damage
i dont care for a triangle with magic, and I like different "schools" of magic like ice and light being in the game. personally i think personal spell lists is the best, cuz otherwise every mage kinda just gets the same tomes and theyre all the same unit but with a different portrait lol. i KIND of liked how in PoR Soren was "the wind mage", Ilyana the thunder, tormod the fire, as they started with higher ranks in those types, but ultimitaly it didnt matter and that game favours just having juggernauts on the team running it down so 3 mages is such a nerf to your army lol
I like triangles, but more importantly I just like having multiple kinds of magic. With only one class of tomes, all mages feel kinda same-y, both aesthetically and in gameplay. The classic trio of "light magic for healers, anima magic for offensive mages, and dark magic for only one or two special dark mages per game" just feels really good. Half the reason the 3DS games have such underwhelming mages is because they all just do the same thing, and tossing a random axe proficiency to a healer doesn't do much to mitigate that.
Problem is that having a „magic triangle“ just… doesn’t really work? In a gameplay sense? I mean, you kinda said it yourself. The distribution of these different types of mages is just way out of wack. For the players, you get a whole bunch of regular mages, a couple of priests (who mostly just act as a staff bot and nothing else), and like… two dark mages, if you’re lucky. In some games, dark mages are locked to enemy units only, locked behind DLC, or locked behind some optional promotion item. And for the enemies, the early- to mid-game consists of only regular mages, with dark mages being reserved to bosses or the occasional „tough, optional enemy“ (until the late-game where they take the spot of the mage unit), and offensive priests… pretty much don’t exist outside of like one single boss encounter. Having an advantage triangle here just… doesn’t work. Like, at all, unless you completely rework the entire game and it’s lore. The reason why the regular weapon triangle works is because there’s a general balance between sword, lance and axe units. Sure, the first one or two chapters mainly consist of axe units, but it doesn’t take long to find your first soldier or myrmidon. I think Fates unequivocally did the ranged weapon triangle the best. There is no runner-up. That’s the only time where the concept kinda worked Edit: oh yeah, there actually is a second place. Forgot that Engage also had a „ranged“ triangle. Though it is weird that the third part‘s filled in by CQC, and not knives (even though that game does have knives). Maybe it’s a distribution thing? Or they just didn’t want Thieves to get completely shut down by a single unit type
@@KeDe1606 I don't think the situation you described is an issue tbh. Plain old anima mages make up the bulk of magic users since that's the "default" one. Light magic is intentionally weak since it's mostly for utility and not damage, so it's okay that it's disadvantaged to the most common magic type. The dark mage class is rare, tbh it's the only non-personal class in the franchise that really tries to stick out as something special and powerful, so it makes sense that it would have an advantage over the most common mage type. And to round it off, light beats dark, which is strong flavor, but in practice, it means that, in the very rare instance your god-fearing cleric fights against a dark mage, they have a slight edge, though not a big one, given their innate difference in power level. The magic triangle was never meant to be an even split like the weapon triangle, and imo the unbalanced nature of it is an upside.
@@BeefinOutbut, like, don’t you see how what you just described ruins the entire concept of a magic triangle? If the distribution of Light, Dark and Anima isn’t even remotely balanced, to the point where you can count the number of both the enemy dark mages AND offensive light mages on ONE SINGLE HAND, then we‘d just get another Tellius situation where Light magic is actually worthless outside of literally one encounter, and… Dark Mages… actually do not exist. Imagine if that is how the regular triangle worked. Like, that the entire game was just filled with only enemy axe units, a literal handful of lance units and a grand total of three sword units. Wouldn’t you think that that might be just a bit bad? That’s why I said that you‘d need to rework even the lore to have a magic triangle work. You‘d need to somehow justify dark mages existing in non-endgame chapters, and you‘d need to justify the sheer existence of light magic in early chapters, because need I remind you that that’s the literal only magic type locked behind a goddamn promotion? And that promoted enemies only start appearing regularly in the last third of a given game? Conceptually speaking, I think a magic triangle is kinda neat. But it just does not work without completely reworking it in some way
@@BeefinOutand then there are also the more miscellaneous issues that Ghast mentions in this video, like the inherent imbalance between the three types of magic, the non-existent stat differences between Mages, Dark Mages and Priests (they all have high magic and resistance. Dark Mages tend to be a bit slower, but that’s it) and so on. Again, without a major rework, it just doesn’t work
I think it’s worth noting that engage also had its tomes function with more diversity than other games. There’s separate progressions for each of the three elements, but rather than a weapon triangle effect that only comes into play for other mages, each magic type has unique stats and effects. Fire is your standard tomes, wind is weaker but lighter and effective against flying opponents, and thunder is now 1-3 range but can’t follow up. We even added a new element with the surge tomes that are guaranteed to hit but are only 1 range. Each of these types has their use cases and weaknesses and it makes magic have more depth without bloating the cast of mages with mostly redundant units. I think having some specific tomes with special effects be locked to certain classes/units like with dark mages in awakening/fates/three houses can be interesting. But slightly different damaging spells shouldn’t be the only thing separating magic classes if we want to have them.
@@AkameGaKillfan777Awakening did start the trend, but the only type of tome that was meaningfully different was wind with the flying effectiveness. Thunder and fire were both basically the same. Three houses does have some more elements of the differing spells. But given that each character has their own set spell list, you don’t have the same freedom of choice in the system that engage has. A lot of the basic damaging spells of different elements are also pretty similar. I single out engage because it was the first game in my opinion to really commit to having every single magic tome/spell feel unique in practice.
One other nuance I can say about Surge is that while the traditional elements have three tiers (standard, El- and Bolganone/Thoron/Excalibur), Surge only has two - Surge and Elsurge. Nova, the S-Rank tome, does use similar visual effects, but it works significantly differently as instead of being a guaranteed-hit range-1 tome, Nova is a brave tome with standard 1-2 range.
Unfortunately, just like every other game that wind is effective against fliers, its base MT is too low to matter, and is objectively worse than just using fire magic if the enemy is grounded. I don't know what they were thinking when they made the A rank Excalibur 10 MT/80 Hit/5 Crit/9 WT, when we already have a C rank Elfire with 11 MT/90 Hit/0 Crit/7 WT. And Elfire is cheaper to forge! The surge tomes were cool in concept, but magic users rarely have hit rate issues to begin with (especially with most of them being mystic type), so surge magic mostly just ends up being a niche earlygame option to do a little extra damage. In the end, you really just have fire and thunder magic.
Slight correction at 0:55: Light doesn’t have an advantage over Dark in Jugdrel. They both have advantages over the Anima triangle, but outside of Naga piercing through Loptus’s damage reduction they are equal in terms of the weapon triangle.
Personally, I think magic's issue is that it doesn't have the effectiveness vs each other that physical weapons have. Since caster resistance is always going to be insanely high, a triangle won't mean much since you're going to just increase hit rates of tiny amounts of chip. In order for Magic Triangle to matter, we need more variety in caster resistance, which means more caster classes. Armor, Cav, and Flier casters should be included and tomes need versions with effectiveness vs these so your triangle would actually matter (using wind vs a pegasus caster as an example), but also the base damage on tomes needs to be sufficient enough that the Weapon Effectiveness actually helps compared to another weapon. Also missing are tomes with Target Physical. We often have magical versions of the standard weapons (bolt axe, levin sword, flame lance, etc), but we do not have the opposite. A defense targeting tome could also help caster vs caster fights (on top of a magic triangle). But otherwise I am also not sold on a magic triangle assuming they continue with the versions previously made (small might/hit adjustments) given how low impact it generally is.
Mmmm An anima spell like "hurl stone", and a dark magic spell that just does physical damage because why not could work like this. Agree on more variety on magic classes. Mage armors and mage cavs would be a nice mix up
I mean, FEH is already doing the magical attack hitting physical defense thing already, so it's not out of the question. Additionally, I totally agree with most of your assessment, except I still want a triangle anyway just because it makes sense for magical elements to interact with each other.
I've always wondered why it was a struggle to balance the Trinity of Magic , But then when you said it's because all mages are built similar, It made mw wonder if there was a way to add even more Mage classes that are actually build around having different growths and bases. Then you hit me with the , "Just make Magic Unique for each character" and yeah I like that too
Hot take: Mages feel so samey because they're intentionally built too similarly, I'm not sure we've EVER had an armored mage class and have wanted one for years
@@baxterbruce9827 the Baron Class from Genealogy was kind of a Physical Tanky Mage , Also in the Rom Hack Fire Emblem Three Legacies (A.K.A. Three Houses 2) there was an Anima tome that targeted Defense which was a very useful tool in the Mage vs Mage combat
@@danny18894 The issue with counting Baron for this is that: A. It rarely has magic, other appearances have it as a much more standard armor B. It can use almost every weapon in the game in the one time it CAN use magic, so it doesn't really feel like a "Mage Armor" so much as an "Everything armor"
I feel like they tried to make mages different but no one ever notices it in practice, like how some games have dark mages being more phisically defensive. Though I guess people tend to connect the dark mages' bulk to nosferatu more than stats...
@@GMOPsyche Tbf, Dark mages do have higher defense on average, but in practice it’s so negligible compared ti other Mages that it won’t matter all that much. If the difference was more noticeable like other classes then it would matter and by proxy the magic triangle could matter more to.
I kinda like having magic user classes feel a bit different if you want to break apart the elements. a wind mage should be dodgy and speedy, fire should have more attack, thunder more accurate and higher crit chances or something like that. Light magic has very high res and dark magic high def. Something that helps differentiate the magic styles. now obviously that’s if they are going for the older separate the elements sort of thing which I don’t mind either way
A great example of diversifying magic roles is Kaga's Berwick Saga. Fire deals excellent single damage, lightning has longer range and wind strikes twice (4x if you have the Pallas Regina). It was a lot of fun and made me want to always have a spell of each type handy in a given battle!
The luna stats on screen for FE7 and 8 don't match up with the dialog. Crit was never 45. FE7 it was 20. FE8 it dropped to 10. It didn't lose all of its crit. Also, in Radiant Dawn... yeah. Micaiah was technically at magic triangle disadvantage against enemy mages. But she had ludicrously high resistance, taking little to no damage, and light magic was accurate enough that being down on the weapon triangle was irrelevant. As far a what I'd like to see, I don't like magic as an "always neutral" option like in Awakening. But as something that almost always has 1-2 range, it's a bit awkward making it play nice with physical weapons. In Fates for example, magic's advantage against bows and disadvantage against lances is somewhat irrelevant when you can just attack and not get counterattacked. I like what the GBA games did with Anima being basic and Dark having interesting utility options. Light was bad though. I think bringing the Light/Anima/Dark system in again would be good, but we can give Anima bonus damage options (Like Radiant Dawn) Dark offensive utility, and light defensive utility, but less power. Dark can get Flux (hits lower of Def/Res), Luna, Miasma (poison), and a strict 3 range tome. Light magic can get Light (accuracy drop on hit) Surge (1 range, built in vantage) Nosferatu, and Aura (inverts def/res) Largely just brainstorming here. This seems kind of gimmicky, and would require some work to balance properly. But magic triangle advantage negating the extra effects of the opposing magic I think would be good.
My take on whether we need a magic triangle is most likely a TBD case. For example, in the GBA games, having a magic triangle was feasible. But then for something like Three Houses, such a triangle may not be ideal considering all units have different spells except for heal and nosferatu. So whether a magic triangle is ideal depends on the game. For remakes of the GBA games, it could be possible to bring the magic triangle back if the available weapon types stay the same (although I would probably make bows more feasible).
I like the idea of the magic triangle being in a game with learned spells like 3H. It'd help keep both mages as well as the magic different and unique. Maybe one character has better Anima spells to nuje and not much else while another unit has more basic spells of every type for versatility.
I feel like I've always leaned in favor of the magic triangle but never sat down and thought about why. This was a good chance to, especially after analyzing your closing statements. The main use of the weapon triangle is to reinforce class identity and unit use cases, and I think it's fair to say that FE7 actually does this very well with the magic triangle. Anima magic is war magic, magic for the sake of battling soldiers, the most commonly seen and first introduced in use by a mercenary. They do a lot of damage because armor doesn't help against it. This consistency is ruined by dark mages, a mostly enemy class who beat them in the triangle and have high resistance. Dark magic is magic for the sake of magic and thus all-consuming, always threatening big damage. Light magic is the one defensive counter to this. Lucius is introduced on the same map as the Black Fang as the answer to the shaman (much like Deirdre is introduced on the same map as Sandima as his counter, although she does it through her staff). But monks are not fighters, they have the least HP, Mag, and Def of the mage classes and are only good to counter evil. Athos bringing Aureola to the final chapter helps reinforce this, with it (and not Forblaze) effective against Nergal, and the +5 Res and triangle adding up. (Of course Luna is just better offensively, and beats light users too, but it was nerfed for a reason) Now it's still very flawed execution-wise, pegasus knights have many more use cases than light mages and beat shamans just as well. FE8 adds Slayer and monster magic to help bishops feel useful more often, and they do, but monsters are underwhelming in general and bishops' low survivability doesn't work well against their horde tactics. Dark magic as a mostly enemy powerful class that beats anima mages, and light magic as a rare unit that is chosen to counter them, is cool though.
Really do wish we could have the Magic Triangle Back. There’s not a lot of Light-Attacking Magic and it would be a nice change of pace compared to just having the elements and some Dark Magic. It was anotha fun cog in the Combat machine that also made Support units (Healers and Priests) something else to work with given the tended to have at least half-decent Magic stats.
I wish the new games could give us the magic triangle back. Same with easy access magic sword axe lance weapons too. Engage was this close to perfection with that if the bolt axe was available in base which make me sad it wasn't. Could have been cool to see Anna use the bolt axe for a hint to people to change her class.
I’m glad to have found your channel; I’m a bit of a Fire Emblem “noob,” only having played Three Houses, Engage, the start of Fates Birthright twice, and recently starting Awakening, so it’s cool to see more of the history of the series through your videos. You’re also just really good at what you’re doing, I’m never bored throughout the video and you make things really clear. So thanks, and keep doing what you’re doing!
The GBA games are super easy to access on your phone/PC by using an emulator with ROM downloads. 8 is my favourite, and I recommend playing them in order of 8->7->6
9:27 sorry for pointing out this small detail but I am a nerd for tellius there's actually 5 dark mages. 1 in 3-3 1 in 3-E depending on stuff in 3-13 2 in 4-1 And 1 in 4-5 All of which Micaiah never fights
Magic in Engage is super balanced between all of the unique classes. Innate weapon proficiency also helps with supplementing fringe choices. Sage gives you access to S rank tomes, and B rank staves(A with innate proficiency), but has the lowest spd cap of magic users, and no spd growths which helps balance out units like Hortensia with good spd and low magic growths, or specializing units like Gregory into nukes. Mage Knight gives you access to breaking without engaging, as well as more movement, but you do not get access to S rank tomes. You can also get access to Brave weapons with innate prof. High Priest is the best non-prf class healer with S rank in staves, but will have neutered combat prowess without innate prof. in Arts or Tomes, but with a similarly low spd cap. The prf classes of Celine, Ivy, Hortensia, and Zelestia also specialize them even further. Vidame has great mixed offensive caps with the high spd, but awful Dex caps meaning you'll need to supplement her hit and Dex with emblems and engraves. Hortensia has low magic growth, but her other offensive stats are great with nice caps in her class as well, but she only has access to B rank tomes restricting her from using Thoron. Ivy's class suffers from a low Dex cap like Celine's, but has S rank tomes and better movement. Zelestia is the most balanced of all of them with good mixed offenses, midling dex and spd caps, and very good mixed bulk. She's basically the Kimahri(jack of all trades) of the magic users that benefits from support in any direction you take her whether it's nuking, outspeeding, supporting, or tanking. This doesn't get into the fringe cases like Mauvier, Chloe, and Jean which have very good cases for going into magical/mixed classes like Mage Knight, or with proper support, Martial Master. Griffon Knight is one of the premium classes, and is great on virtually everyone, but these 3 make great use of their growths in that class, and in Mauvier and Chloe's case, their innate prof. as well. Engaging, and emblem stat bonuses also supplement the weaknesses of these classes very nicely. Putting Marth on Gregory gives him better avoid, combined with his personal skill to supplement his lack of spd, while also giving him a follow up hit while engaged. Camilla gives a spd bonus from the emblem, but also has the +5 Spd/Res skill making it good on sages, especially if they have decent Str growths/bases to use her Axe. Celica can make up for the weakness of slow mages with Echo while synergizing with backup units, and Resonance can set you up to take advantage of Veronica's Reprisal for better nuking. Micaiah makes up for low bulk mages by giving them Nosferatu, but also gives access to staves. She can also help set up Reprisal or Wrath with Sacrifice quite easily leading to strong nukes as well. Engage balanced the magic classes nicely, and streamlined character's unique niches while allowing enough freedom to experiment. The engage system also helps supplement weaknesses or further invest into strenghts to create more diversity within the cast. I've spent the most time in the game trying to figure out what I'm going to do with the magic classes, who's going to get which ring, and who should go into mixed offensive clases. I think the weapon triangle would further complicate, and unnecessarily restrict strategies, and usually means certain characters, classes, or types of magic are always going to be worse than others. It's why people avoid sword locked classes, or don't use generalist classes. Too far in one direction, or having too little direction without any way of mitigating the downsides means you can't be creative with your strategies.
I remember playing Radiant Dawn for the first time and I was kinda baffled when I realized that wind tomes didn't effect Haar much (of course I played FE7 shortly prior so there's that). I do agree the way magic is handled in more recent titles is more interesting. It gives more options and feels like if I pick a more niche option, I'm not just picking them because of a design preference but because they at least do something different even if they may not be the better unit from a previous playthrough.
Something I kinda wish was the development of more varied magic/staff statlines. Awakening and Fates did this fairly well, with dedicated mages/healers with actually respectable physical bulk in the form of Dark Mages, Priestess/Great Masters, and Butlers. While they weren’t armor knight levels of tanks, they had an interesting niche where you can place them on the front lines more often without fear of death. They were fun to use. I really want an armored magic user in future games. Engage’s mage cannoneers were fun, but imagine a mage with high defense.
Yeah, in my first Awakening playthrough Tharja ended up marrying Kellam, because a Sorcerer with Vengeance and Nosferatu makes for a surprisingly great soaking tank.
Triangles were cool at first but there is no need for them. Ultimately you use the right tool for the right circumstance and in most cases the weapon triangle barely matters. Overpowered units/classes/abilities/weapons are what dictates what is good more than triangling an enemy for some slight hit/avo/MT advantage. Break in Engage is neat though, I think that is the system they should use moving forward. It is enough to justify caring about it (sometimes) and not so much that it is obnoxious to deal with because you now have an unfixable 50 hit rate due to triangle disadvantage.
I think the other point you have to make is that enemies are mages only very rarely. So the whole idea of mage vs mage combat just rarely if ever comes into play. Having a magic triangle practically doesn't matter.
Things I wanna see in nee Fe games Early dancer. Fates got it right. Magic healers engage almost got it right. Fates amiboo system so we can get true units an engage almost had it with the Veronica system Magic triangle to make the slots useful. Levin sword bolt axe whatever the lance is called be a weapon we can get semi early. Fixed vs expanding enemy levels. Engage made me mad at how you could train and they only get stronger than you. Waste of time. Break system be like 3 houses. If not unbreakable be like engage with awakening forge system. More one shot classes they were cool
In my romhack, I made it so Light magic was well...lightweight, plus crit and gives various buffs in case of the higher grade tomes. I Avatar'd anima and it has the most tomes: 3 for Fire and Thunder, 2 apiece for Wind and Ice, for a total of 10. Dark is also now the debuff magic, with only Flux not having some sorta debuff/additional harmful effect. New tomes were added to both Light and Dark so that they're both 7 apiece. Light has Holy Armor, which is basically Munio from TLP's son. And then basically Valentia Seraphim, which grants FE8 Bishop! Slayer to anybody wielding it. Dark greets in Spectre, which weakens Atk by 4(not Magic nor Strength), and Tartatus which puts a Sleep status on its victim.
Honestly, I don't particularly feel one way or the other about attempting "Magic Triangle", however I'd seriously advise them to consider copying Final Fantasy XIII's setup and tweaking it a little as a tester format. Because they have very little idea what they are doing with their triangles, and In theory you'd end up with enough unique class variations doing that. For the fun of it, I put an off the top of my head idea for the concept. Sabatour (Traditionally a "Witch/Assassin") - Status Elements (e.g Poison, Blind, Petrify, Slow, Hex/Charm, etc) leaning into Mag, Dex and Spd. Dark Warrior (Traditionally a "Dark Knight/Mage") - Combat Dark Magics (e.g Ultima, Life Steal, Venom Strike, etc) leaning into Str, Mag and Def. -Filling in Dark Medic/Healer (Traditionally a part of "White/Light Mage") - Healing Magic (e.g Heal, Revive, Rescue, Regen, Purify, etc.) leaning into Mag, Res, Spd. Battle Priest/Priestess/Monk (Traditionally a of "White/Light Mage") - Combat Light Magic (e.g Holy, Light Ray/Beam, Smite [vs. Undead/Monsters], etc.)leaning into Str, Def, Res. -Filling in Light Mimic (Traditionally a "Blue Mage") - copies monster abilities. leaning into Def, Res and Dex. Commando (For want of a better name) - Non-Elemental Magic/Boosting Magic (e.g Strength up, Ruin [see FFXIII for reference], Warp/Swap, etc.) leaning into Str, Mag, and Cha. -Filling in Neutral With Elemental Magic being learnable by all, and Fire (generally) being the default starter spell. As the old saying goes "It's easier to start a fire, than to stop one".
If the magic triangle came back It would make sense if the disadvantaged user had their resistance reduced by an amount when fighting along with extra magic done against them so that way it would be strategic to field certain mages At least it would be nice if they did that in radiant dawn remake
I miss the magic triangle. I propose an amplified triangle (stronger bonuses/penalties) for magic. And more diverse stat spreads for magic users would help too.
Magic doesn't need Triangles (Heck, nothing REALLY does), but rather, Mages need more class variety. Physical classes have Fighters, Mercenaries, Armor Knights, Pegasus Knights, Cavaliers, etc. Where most of the time magic boils down to "Physjcally Squishy Mage", "Mage on Horse" and "Mage but Purple"
Yeah, the magic weapon triangle has never been as effective as the physical one. However, I do really like the way they implemented effective damage against the laguz units (and by extension some beorc units) in Tellius, in addition to adding a physical weapon variation for each anima magic type. If they remade either PoR or RD, I think that they should keep the thunder effectiveness on wyvern riders, maybe add the bow effectiveness back, and give cavaliers and paladins a weakness to fire. The last would add a nice level of strategy for returning players by giving them a new mechanic to work around, especially with the number of mounted allies and fire-wielding enemy mages there are.
I agree that there isn't a point to a magic triangle given that magical units can have such a similar spread of stats. However I would like there to be some sort of triangle where magic is strong against and weak against something. At least in perspective of Engage, instead of Arts just being the only thing that breaks daggers, bows, and tomes I would have liked to see some sort of triangle where Tome is strong against Bow but weak against Daggers and so forth. Kind of like Fates but keep the triangles separate from one another.
Help I'm being silenced Faerghast cut out 20 pages of script of me just saying mages suck /s In all seriousness it was really fun to script for this video. Mages have been on a WILD journey through the series, and this doesn't even include FE1 where spells were just flat damage with no relation to unit power stat.
I'd want a triangle like Fates where all the weapons are in the triangle, but have other magic types and actually have some stat variety for mages. I'd want Swords, Anima, and Gauntlets that beat Axes, Light, and Bows that beat Lances, Dark, and Knives
Out of all Magic Triangles, Valflame has the best triangle. Okay for real I like the magic triangle, but it basically works in the exact same way as the weapon triangle. Maybe the bonuses should be raised and be unique. Like maybe Dark magic takes significantly less damage from anima, light or thunder getting a much higher critical hit bonus, wind granting more hit/avoid or something like that. Make magic having the advantage mean something bigger than… +2 damage and +10 hit
Honestly, I think the magic trinity is usually a good thing since it adds more flavor to different mages. Playing through Awakening and having both your staff user and magic attacker promote into a sage is boring, and don't get me started on dark magic being just a subset of tomes. It's also good for reclass heavy games since there's more room to play around with different magic classes.
Tre trinity of magic must make a return because adds variety to the amount of magic classes we have. I was not going to use both Erk and Pent but I will train Lucius and Canas. Also more magic classes means more mage enemies to make resistance more valuable. I know mix classes are a thing from FE13, 14, 3 Houses and Engage but they tend to be bad on the highest difficulty or focus only on one weapon so that's not really a good fix to that issue.
We need a little more variety in mage classes in general, I've been suggesting an armored mage class for years because we've never had one, imagine a brick wall in heavy armor with high Defense and Resistance (Probably average HP to keep it SOMEWHAT "Balanced" even though low movement is punishment enough) flinging fireballs in a choke point to keep away attackers
Magic triangles in FE are such a dying breed that the only modern entry it has survived is Heroes. Which... released back in 2015 and is still going as of this post. Hm.
And in Heroes, it's less "magic triangle" and more "color triangle that tomes just happen to slot into". All fire and dark magic is red like swords, all thunder and light magic is blue like lances, and all wind magic is green like axes.
I'd argue while it doesn't need to return as a trinity, I also think with a elemental resistances (blade,impact,pierce,fire,cold and arcane) system it could make all magic useful because of the weaknesses some enemies could have that simply doesn't depend on their weapon but their classes. Magic users then would not have to target enemies with the weaker tome but enemies weak to the form of damage your mages can exploit, elusive units would take more damage from blades, so the fast and accurate wind tome would be a good fit (it's literally slashing gust of winds don't tell me it wouldn't to blade damage)
I agree. Have Ice magic effective against fire and fire magic good against grass spells or something. You could have a whole load of different elemental spells.
I always thought the magic triangles were fun to play with. In radiant dawn it was kind of silly with the additional because of the very few dark users. Idk tho - I always find it fun (:
2 months later here and um.... yeah, I've hated the magic triangle. I feel that the best user of Dark magic I've ever had was specifically from Sacred Stones and was Ewan. Why Ewan? He had good growth in the dark mage tree, Druid just upped it and yeah, it was rare to see him hit by anyone, at least for me, and we're talking a both-paths and several deleted files player who essentially went Pirate>Warrior Ross (att I didn't know about the Berserker abilities and saw bows as great second weapon options, at the time specifically. I've learned a lot since then), General Amelia, who, for me, was amazing as the simple investment of a speedwing on Amelia made her very easy to build and run with. I actually had her going to really dangerous chapters solo specifically because she just felt so powerful... anyway, back to Druid Ewan, enemies rarely had over 50 hit on him and he felt great. Even Bishops and such didn't feel like threats. As an avid PoR fan and currently replaying RD for my first time... I just realized how much I HATE the Anima-magic mini-triangle (which requires two mages/sages deployed on top of the mandatory Micaiah in the first 11 chapters, and apparently some later ones too that aren't the final chapters?), and additionally, Fimbulvetr, Gleipnir, Nidhogg, etc are from Norse mythology, Gleipnir is the name of 1 of the 3 fetters used on Fenrir, the wolf who would kill Odin. Fimbulvetr is basically the weather pattern of an Ice Age that is planet-wide heralding the end and bringing about Ragnarok (a fire tome in some games from FE), Nidhogg is the dragon at the base of the Yggdrassil, the world tree made more famous by it being involved in quite a few Dragon Quest games, Tales of Phantasia and Symphonia (and I guess some non-existent Symphonia: Dawn of the New World that, in theory would be good, but practically speaking, most likely is dogshit), and lastly games like God of War (continuation into Norse Mythology). Oh, and btw, circling back real quick to Gleipnir, it's also the fetter that Fenrir didn't break, the other two failures, were Leyding and Dromi. Oh, and Tyr lost a hand binding Fenrir. Also, Garm is the name of Hel's wolf. As in Hel, goddess of death, you may remember her appearance in Thor Ragnarok, though that's her Marvel-ized version... she is quite a bit more complex in actual Nordic Lore... anyway, point is those WEIRD names for the Sacred Weapons in FE8 all Norse except for Siegmund and Sieglinde which, I believe, are Germanic. Oh, and that a lot of the weird names of tomes and weapons are Nordic and anglicized (as in translated into English versions of the names that don't use the Nordic letters)
I liked the magic triangle in Sacred Stones, at least in concept, because Anima was treated as the 'normal' magic used by the majority of both allied and enemy casters, and then Light was worse at dealing with normal humans but superior against monsters and cultists to fit its concept as a holy thing, and dark magic... well okay it was supposed to be this scary thing that's more powerful than normal magic and specifically screws up traditional elemental mages, but in practice it usually had like a 15% chance to hit. So the implementation leaves much to be desired, but the initial concept was solid. 3H seems like it *almost* had a secondary triangle. The normal weapon triangle effects were mostly removed but there's a skill you get at B rank proficiency in each, giving +20 hit and avoid when in the traditional matchups (which is rarely used because it takes up one of your limited equip slots for a very situational benefit). And there's a second set of three skills like that, which would have meant Fists beat Magic, Magic beats Bows, Bows beat Fists... except that two of them are locked behind the master ranks of the Warlock and Grappler classes, and the third is just sitting unimplemented in the code. So I'm pretty sure the idea was scrapped maybe a third of the way through development, but it might have been cool at some point.
No one of the things I'd change about FE Engage is bringing back the magic triangle and add more classes, rebalance existing ones. Seriously why is Paladin a one weapon class? Why can theif not promote into rouge or assassin? WHY are there no FALCON KNIGHTS!!!
Actually in Radiant Dawn, there were 7 possible enemies that could use dark magic. This being the one Druid in chapter 3-3, the two Druids in chapter 3-8 that start next to Septimus, a total of three Druids in chapter 4-1 (two of the begin in the chapter, and another is a reinforcement spawn.) And of course, lastly is our baby girl Izuka.
Late to this discussion but since I’m playing through Fire Emblem on the Switch expansion pass, magic feels very different in there. Erk was an early solo carry and Canas definitely has my attention with his high skill and damage output but I’m still in the early chapters to make a final decision. I did enjoy the idea Fates tried by merging projectile weapons on top of the weapon triangle but only because it was easy to remember the effectiveness of each of them, in the long run I think hidden weapons are the best support weapons for debuffing enemies but they’re just the physical counterparts of tomes/scrolls. The dark mages in Fates have it arguably better and worse by having higher skill growth but only 1 exclusive dark tome, a worse version of Nosferatu from Awakening. I’m also on board with keeping magic and mages their own identities, maybe we can get something from 3H where characters have their own spell level ups and have room to branch out and learn newer or better spells (like Claud learning Forsetti or even Tornado if you use Wind enough times). Additionally, I feel like if we’re given another game like 3H, I would absolutely love to have an accessory that allows units outside of the mage classes to use spells. I wouldn’t know how that would turn out but I’m still slightly upset about teaching Ignatz reason only to swap out of the mage class into an assassin.
the problem with a magic triangle is that magic units and their weapons aren't that different from one another, and when everyone has decent res and good magic these match-ups go nowhere. It's nice to have a way to tank enemy mages but offensively you're using everyone else, outside of the lopsided GBA Light vs Dark mage which is meant to favor the player. They need a better identity: Anima: Slight weapon effectiveness depening on magic type is okay. A Thunder spell shouldn't have the same effective bonus as a Bow into a Wyvern. Otherwise these should all be basic bitch tomes. I'd not have Wind/Fire/Thunder split up into branches with their own triangle. GBA handled that part of it well. Dark Magic: beisdes Flux being a basic bitch tome, go wacky. Besides balancing Nosferatu (and the availability within classes), Awakening had the right idea. We had a Killer, Brave and Siege tome in that class type after all. Make them all weird, fun to fight against, and fun to use on the one or two drak mages the game gives you Light Magic: I think the way to go with these is how heroes handled OG Staff weapons early on (MT penalty aside). Low damage magic that has debuffs and other support effects. Gravity to lock down foes, Absorb to mix healing with offense. This way, these units become fun unique tools in your roster and not objectiely inferior to Sages with Staff access. It also means that as enemies, you gotta be damn sure you're ORKO'ing the enemy healer or else they cripple you. And if you MUST have a magic triangle, maybe just make it give you a really good bonus to damage.
Hilariously enough, mages always outnumbered Pegasus knights and Wyvern Knights in your army until reclass shenanigans happened, so how special were they really compared to Pegasus Knights (which still have a special place in my heart both for being a Fire Emblem Unique, you get mages in a lot of fantasy games but Pegasus Knights? As well as because of Best Girl Florina.)? But yeah, if anything, mages are dime a dozen in fantasy games, but Pegasus Knights? That's way more unique already.
I’d definitely like to see it go more in the way of 3 houses, but more open to be used outside of mage classes. Let’s say…you learn some spells as you level, but despite your unit having a certain skill level in whatever type of magic, A rank in dark for example, the class they’re in may limit them to only using up to C rank dark magic. The same idea could potentially apply to weapons as well, again, if they’re more like 3 houses where the w. triangle was just done away with. Obviously this way would make it to where everyone/almost everyone would have access to some magic no matter what, and how that affects the entire system would need to be carefully crafted. Oh, and mage classes could have default spells they can use regardless of character knowledge. A priest can always use healing magic even if that specific character never learns any on their own, for example. Anyway, I’m just rambling at this point, so….🤷🏻♂️
The thing bout the trinity of magic, is that while the things you say are true, the trinity of magic is still, well, cool. I like the flavor it adds, I like it when mages specialize in certain types of magic and I hope that when remakes roll around (come on, Jugdral remakes, come to papa) they polish the trinity further. I think that, giving different types of magic different properties, making the magic triangle matter by making it more impactful (maybe giving it weapon effectiveness beyond regular triangle advantage) and proliferating their users across the enemy army so that it actually comes into play once or twice could really help the trinity come into its own
Slight corrections: In Jugdral, both light and dark have an advantage over all anime magic, but are neutral to each other. In fe9, light is neutral to all magic, having no advantage or disadvantage over anything. Light magic in fe9 is particularly interesting because: 1. It shared a weapon rank with staves, with its usage tied to a class skill. Kinda like three houses white magic system, in a way. 2. Rhys is the only playable unit who can use it, and Rhys is a unit who should really never see combat, making the whole weapon type effectively pointless. 3. Despite that, the light tome is the most expensive weapon to forge in the game.
The main issue is just that the magic vs. physical meta is far more meaningful than the specifics of any magic triangle mechanics. The 1-2 range of magic and big damange against the hordes of low-resistance physical units is offset by their general squishiness against said hordes. I think what makes more of a difference, really, is availability of 1-2 range physical weapons. In games where javelins and hand axes are plenty, the utility of mages is greatly diminished (see Tellius), which is exacerbated further by high movement, high res/HP classes capable of using those weapons. All that being said, I think the magic triangle was most functional in the GBA games - it was just hindered by the great imbalance in frequency and availability of anima compared to both other magic types.
I remember when I was trying to come up with ideas for an FE Fan game. I couldn't make it. Thinking of games I want to make is something I like doing. I hatted they dropped light magic and I started with everything betting two elements and losing two elmaments with Light, Electric, Fire, Ice, and Darkness with Wind being neutral. But I kept mixing myself up with the odd number and added Sprites. I got carried away with my Triangles, I had the weapons, the rouge triangle, the magic star and they formed a separate triangle. I even had an Anaimal triangle before I realized I was being silly.
As far as how classes relate to the magic triangle, I’d argue that modeling light after swords, anima after lances, and dark after axes could work. With this, light magic would be accurate and lightweight at the cost of stopping power, anima magic would be balanced across all three of these aspects, and dark magic would sacrifice accuracy and a low weight in exchange for a greater damage output. As far as the strengths of these magic categories go, it would be similar to their strengths in the GBA games. With the strengths of these magic types, the magic classes could be built, such as a light mage having stats akin a myrmidon.
If I could choose how the Trinity could return, I'd use the Three Houses weapon level system, but each time black magic levels up, the player will be given the option to increase thunder magic, fire magic, wind magic, or dark magic by 1 rank, which will start at E rank in the beginning, but will be limited to how you invest the levels by stopping the options when you hit A+ in Black Magic, leading to each run being different, with the magic ranks chosen being determinate on how the magic user can be utilized.
I feel a similar issue exists with the Weapon Triangle, at least in the Warriors games. There is a lot of classes which are weak to Axe but have Magic which gives them an advantage against them as they lack Magic Defense. This in turn created major issues where you just send AI to kill effective targets while you manually handle "dangerous" targets and destroy them instantly while the AI would struggle. This effectively made Armored Knights worthless as they were only useful defensively by the AI as manual control runs the risk of an enemy AI using magic on you in real combat. As cool as a Triangle is, it only works in a perfectly balanced world or else some traits become preferable.
Really cool video! Loved the personal spell list that Three Houses had. I just wish more classes were capable of wielding magic in that game so I could experiment with it more without going full blown "you're a mage now." But that might be a personal thing, I love spellsword archetypes.
I thought dark = axe . low hit rate high powr. But you need to make light a sword high accuracy low power, That leaves anima as a lance which kinda feel weird. Maybe magic need different weapon triangle bonus. Like doubling/halving their speed if they have weapon advantage. Or halving their damage.
I don't like where the magic system is going. Yes, the rarity of magic can add uniqueness to the mages in your party and the roles they play, but if you like the playstyle and don't like the mage themselves then it ends up being, for lack of a better term, mid. I love the concept of using swords and tomes, especially with Ignis, but my god did I not like Celine and her stupid ass dress. This goes the other way as well; I loved Anna as a character, but not as a magic user. On the other hand, I loved Citrinne, but I wanted her to be a crit nuke like Panette, but only Veyle could do that somewhat. Just because they have failed to make it work well, doesn't mean it can't. Like with many other aspects of the game, it could be better if they actually tried.
It's kinda sad considering that going by their stat lines, Dark Magic tomes were basically the Axes of magic, Light were the Sword line, and Anima was the Lance line. And yet, they couldn't differentiate magic users like they did with weapons users.
The main issue I am got was that there is no classes that can take advantage of a magic triangle. Perhaps what is needed is new classes that reflect the anime elements. A wind mage class can have high speed, luck, and moderate resistance in additional to moderate magical power. When they promote, they gain access to staves. This will allow the mage to be effective against thunder mages and not outshine clerics. Compared to clerics, wind class healing capabilities are much less effective. Thunder mage class will have high magic, decent skill, and low resistance. When they promote, they will become armor class. Thunder mage will not gain any movement points, but moderate good strength and defense. Additionally, they can now use Lances. Thunder mages will be able to dominate fire mages with critical hits but struggle to hit wind mages. Fire mages will have high magic, skill, resistance, and weak luck. When they promote, they become a mounted class. Because of their high skill, Fire Mages will be able to hit wind mages hard.
I hate this argument. Things get unfairly deemed products of limitation that don't need to exist anymore. 2d games died in the 1990s when 3d systems became widely available. Boss fights were up on the chopping block because uncharted had terrible boss fights. Lives and time limits are going through it right now. People falsely believe game design is a problem that needs to be solved instead of an outlet of artistic expression. Triangles don't necessarily need to be in every game, but they still have a place and claiming they need to stop being used will deny that the system has benefited good games and can still be used to great effect in the future.
Personally i actually want the magic triangle back but i want it back along with weight AND better variations in magic classes as to give more variety and to further the identity of those magic types. As personally i dont really like how magic has been used with the resent games as and this is my personal opinion but they feel "samey" to me lacking in that personal charm you see especially in the GBA titles, now i know each unit tends to have their own niche in the newer titles with what magic they use but in doing magic like that, it makes magic feel more like special super powers to me instead of a kind of institutionalized set of skills one takes time too learn, such as in FE7 how Canas support conversations with Pent really gives you the impression that anima magic is a much younger form of magic then elder magic but is seen in a better light because the magic itself wont threaten your sanity. The whole thing i really miss is how magic "felt" different even if the units themselves tended to be somewhat the same which i wish that if they do revisit the magic triangle they add units to those magic types that fit into the general theme of that particular magic so as to further the point that these are institutionally understood forms of magic and with specific strengths and weaknesses and even explore how some animals are fine with or not fine with different types of magic like say the Pegasus are scared/hate Dark and anima magic but are fine with light magic or hell make a brand new mount thats fine with dark magic like a giant toad that has less movement then horses but keeps its full movement in forests and can travel over water ( the witches need their frogs)
So if the problem is that mages are built the same… are we saying there should be more variety in mage classes? Like make mage archetypes that are similar in nature to the martial classes? Ones that are especially resistance tanky, or have high crit? Or just more might in general?
in shining force, spells could multi target, and unlike balistae in fates, multi kill. your casts were limited by your mana, but it really did make them feel like powerful, valuable, nuclear weapons, when raised long enough to bear fruit.
Society in general? No, triangles are way too important to society. Fire emblem? Also No, the game is more fun when we have those funny little 3 sided object.
Yea haar the lord of oh sorry fell asleep and killed 50 guys (he also happened to come into the fight next to a mage in chapter 2 part 4 or 5 who drops nullify so yea not gonna grab that and make him god)
You didnt mention the weird thing with thunder magic in radiant dawn. For some reason, it has both the lowest might AND the lowest accuracy, with a slightly higher crit rate, so it was pretty much strictly the worst magic type.
as you said in the end of the review the weapon triangle function as a magnifier to the classes that use then, if magic classes are not built more uniquely like phisical classes having a weapon triangle is mostly pointless or heavily mitigated at least
I mean they already have it in their name destructive fire mage to harm the tiles next to you, they all fell the same way with diffrent tome names,give them unique mechaniks.
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I Missed Light Magic Overpowering dark magic, and Regular Magic Overpowering light magic and Dark Magic Overpowering Regular Magic..
Trivia: According Telluis Recollection Water Magic and Dark Magic Was Forbidden to Be Studied due Religious connections to Ashruna Flooding The World...Water Magic Represented Ashruna Miraculous power and Dark Magic being forbidden Because Of How Yune was Slandered and Labeled A Dark God.
So originally there was five types of magic In Telluis Series. Light, Dark, Water, Fire, Wind, and Thunder.
It would be nice Add New Type Of Magic Being Water Magic as Lost Art being Rediscovered and appreciated When Ashruna appear 1200 Years laterTo Stop War in Telluis
terrible, force spell lists were a terrible idea
The real root of the issue is that all mages get built basically the same, if we had a few more mages (or mage classes) that traded some resistance for better defense or something it would help a lot
I've been hoping for a Mage Armor for years because we've never really gotten one, and not one at all in Modern Fire Emblem
The closest thing we have to a mage armor is a Cipher exclusive character that is shown using magic in 1 card, his name is Valjean and he's awesome btw.
I'm thinking something akin to a magical counterpart to the likes of Swordmaster could shake things up - a high-speed magic class that has low res in exchange, something you'll want to use other mages against because they have the res to not take too much damage from being doubled, while can still put on the hurt themselves despite only getting one swing in.
What was the game that had decent HP and Defenses on Dark Mages?. Cannot remember but they can totally work.
I think it actually has been done this way already, but what I would like is:
Dark Mages: Decent HP and Defense and the highest Magic, Magical equivalent of Axes.
Light Mages: High Speed, Luck and Res, equivalent of Swords.
Anima Mages: In-between, equivalent of Lances.
With each unit having their own capabilities too, which may be more important than ever if something like Engage classes become the standard in the future (Classic gameplay can get a higher variety of units too, is just that it refuses to make Physical units with high Res besides Pegasus and Magical units tanky).
@@gicrueldad9520 They tried doing this in the GBA games, but the differences were way more downplayed than with sword/axe/lance classes, which is what I propose and honestly think we need to try doing more
Like if you look at PoR Soren ilyana and tormod, who are wind mage, thunder mage and fire mage respectively, they are essentially just mages in the end.
I will say it . Tellius had the bestagic triangle . All tomes were effective against something, and they feel natural . I don't know if it's weird or not but having a class for each element feels normal . But I do think they should have differences in stat distribution to make them all feel different. I'm one of people that want the Trinity of magic back in the game
Yeah, the game definitely would need classes, like Spell Blades or MageBreakers.
@@aureliodeprimus8018 Something like the Dreadfighters on Gaiden/SoV? like Swordmasters, slightly less fast (but fast enough to double mages) with very high Resistance
@@reik019 Yeah, propably. Thanks for reminding.
I don't think I've ever seen Micaiah struggle in mage v mage. We're talking about a character with 80% magic growth and 90% resistance growth. She's practically immune to magic attacks assuming you're keeping her caught up in levels
Personally I like the magic triangle. Though I don't think that is important enough to even matter
And idea i had for this problem was just... adding more types of magic, and making mages/spells more differentiated.
Anima mages are the strongest magic wise, light mages are res tanks, dark mages have the best defense.
Anima is powerful, plentiful, and balanced. Light is very accurte and have positive effects on your party and the user.
Dark has the most might, but is also the most weight. It also debuffs the enemy.
I also think adding a new type entirely would be neat. Maybe like nature magic? Or a special type that every spell caster can use???
While I love the idea of the magic triangle it’s got such a huge flaw because all the mages are practically the same stat wise.
It’s like if the weapon triangle only had armor knights, advantages don’t matter by that point everyone’s dealing chip damage. If mages had more differences in their stats, had more class variety in general, and had more enemy variety instead of mages early game, druids endgame and nothing else, then the magic triangle could be an amazing system.
Also more spell variety, stuff like a beast killer spell, or a spell that hit defense. Stuff like that could allow the magic triangle to open up more to be more on level with the weapon triangle
Wait, is light magic really strong against dark magic in FE4 and FE5? As I check the wiki and serenes forest page, they seem to be neutral against each other
i think magic is at its best in Three Houses: it doesn't have the magic trinity, but magic still feels diverse and unique, having tons of special effects and ways to mesh into unit customization. i personally hate the way Engage does magic, because it feels so boring to just have it be only anima across the board. it would be so much cooler if, like in three houses, light magic had utility and dark magic provided special effects. really makes magic feel like more than just another type of damage
i dont care for a triangle with magic, and I like different "schools" of magic like ice and light being in the game. personally i think personal spell lists is the best, cuz otherwise every mage kinda just gets the same tomes and theyre all the same unit but with a different portrait lol. i KIND of liked how in PoR Soren was "the wind mage", Ilyana the thunder, tormod the fire, as they started with higher ranks in those types, but ultimitaly it didnt matter and that game favours just having juggernauts on the team running it down so 3 mages is such a nerf to your army lol
Idk weapon triangles are a lie anyway
W
I like triangles, but more importantly I just like having multiple kinds of magic. With only one class of tomes, all mages feel kinda same-y, both aesthetically and in gameplay. The classic trio of "light magic for healers, anima magic for offensive mages, and dark magic for only one or two special dark mages per game" just feels really good. Half the reason the 3DS games have such underwhelming mages is because they all just do the same thing, and tossing a random axe proficiency to a healer doesn't do much to mitigate that.
Said better then i could. Thank you.
Problem is that having a „magic triangle“ just… doesn’t really work? In a gameplay sense?
I mean, you kinda said it yourself. The distribution of these different types of mages is just way out of wack.
For the players, you get a whole bunch of regular mages, a couple of priests (who mostly just act as a staff bot and nothing else), and like… two dark mages, if you’re lucky. In some games, dark mages are locked to enemy units only, locked behind DLC, or locked behind some optional promotion item.
And for the enemies, the early- to mid-game consists of only regular mages, with dark mages being reserved to bosses or the occasional „tough, optional enemy“ (until the late-game where they take the spot of the mage unit), and offensive priests… pretty much don’t exist outside of like one single boss encounter.
Having an advantage triangle here just… doesn’t work. Like, at all, unless you completely rework the entire game and it’s lore. The reason why the regular weapon triangle works is because there’s a general balance between sword, lance and axe units. Sure, the first one or two chapters mainly consist of axe units, but it doesn’t take long to find your first soldier or myrmidon.
I think Fates unequivocally did the ranged weapon triangle the best. There is no runner-up. That’s the only time where the concept kinda worked
Edit: oh yeah, there actually is a second place. Forgot that Engage also had a „ranged“ triangle. Though it is weird that the third part‘s filled in by CQC, and not knives (even though that game does have knives). Maybe it’s a distribution thing? Or they just didn’t want Thieves to get completely shut down by a single unit type
@@KeDe1606 I don't think the situation you described is an issue tbh. Plain old anima mages make up the bulk of magic users since that's the "default" one. Light magic is intentionally weak since it's mostly for utility and not damage, so it's okay that it's disadvantaged to the most common magic type. The dark mage class is rare, tbh it's the only non-personal class in the franchise that really tries to stick out as something special and powerful, so it makes sense that it would have an advantage over the most common mage type. And to round it off, light beats dark, which is strong flavor, but in practice, it means that, in the very rare instance your god-fearing cleric fights against a dark mage, they have a slight edge, though not a big one, given their innate difference in power level. The magic triangle was never meant to be an even split like the weapon triangle, and imo the unbalanced nature of it is an upside.
@@BeefinOutbut, like, don’t you see how what you just described ruins the entire concept of a magic triangle? If the distribution of Light, Dark and Anima isn’t even remotely balanced, to the point where you can count the number of both the enemy dark mages AND offensive light mages on ONE SINGLE HAND, then we‘d just get another Tellius situation where Light magic is actually worthless outside of literally one encounter, and… Dark Mages… actually do not exist.
Imagine if that is how the regular triangle worked. Like, that the entire game was just filled with only enemy axe units, a literal handful of lance units and a grand total of three sword units. Wouldn’t you think that that might be just a bit bad?
That’s why I said that you‘d need to rework even the lore to have a magic triangle work. You‘d need to somehow justify dark mages existing in non-endgame chapters, and you‘d need to justify the sheer existence of light magic in early chapters, because need I remind you that that’s the literal only magic type locked behind a goddamn promotion? And that promoted enemies only start appearing regularly in the last third of a given game?
Conceptually speaking, I think a magic triangle is kinda neat. But it just does not work without completely reworking it in some way
@@BeefinOutand then there are also the more miscellaneous issues that Ghast mentions in this video, like the inherent imbalance between the three types of magic, the non-existent stat differences between Mages, Dark Mages and Priests (they all have high magic and resistance. Dark Mages tend to be a bit slower, but that’s it) and so on. Again, without a major rework, it just doesn’t work
I think it’s worth noting that engage also had its tomes function with more diversity than other games. There’s separate progressions for each of the three elements, but rather than a weapon triangle effect that only comes into play for other mages, each magic type has unique stats and effects. Fire is your standard tomes, wind is weaker but lighter and effective against flying opponents, and thunder is now 1-3 range but can’t follow up. We even added a new element with the surge tomes that are guaranteed to hit but are only 1 range. Each of these types has their use cases and weaknesses and it makes magic have more depth without bloating the cast of mages with mostly redundant units.
I think having some specific tomes with special effects be locked to certain classes/units like with dark mages in awakening/fates/three houses can be interesting. But slightly different damaging spells shouldn’t be the only thing separating magic classes if we want to have them.
That's almost exactly the same as Awakening and 3 Houses
@@AkameGaKillfan777I didn't see Surge tomes in Three Houses and weight wasn't even a thing in Awakening.
@@AkameGaKillfan777Awakening did start the trend, but the only type of tome that was meaningfully different was wind with the flying effectiveness. Thunder and fire were both basically the same.
Three houses does have some more elements of the differing spells. But given that each character has their own set spell list, you don’t have the same freedom of choice in the system that engage has. A lot of the basic damaging spells of different elements are also pretty similar.
I single out engage because it was the first game in my opinion to really commit to having every single magic tome/spell feel unique in practice.
One other nuance I can say about Surge is that while the traditional elements have three tiers (standard, El- and Bolganone/Thoron/Excalibur), Surge only has two - Surge and Elsurge. Nova, the S-Rank tome, does use similar visual effects, but it works significantly differently as instead of being a guaranteed-hit range-1 tome, Nova is a brave tome with standard 1-2 range.
Unfortunately, just like every other game that wind is effective against fliers, its base MT is too low to matter, and is objectively worse than just using fire magic if the enemy is grounded. I don't know what they were thinking when they made the A rank Excalibur 10 MT/80 Hit/5 Crit/9 WT, when we already have a C rank Elfire with 11 MT/90 Hit/0 Crit/7 WT. And Elfire is cheaper to forge!
The surge tomes were cool in concept, but magic users rarely have hit rate issues to begin with (especially with most of them being mystic type), so surge magic mostly just ends up being a niche earlygame option to do a little extra damage. In the end, you really just have fire and thunder magic.
Slight correction at 0:55: Light doesn’t have an advantage over Dark in Jugdrel. They both have advantages over the Anima triangle, but outside of Naga piercing through Loptus’s damage reduction they are equal in terms of the weapon triangle.
Personally, I think magic's issue is that it doesn't have the effectiveness vs each other that physical weapons have. Since caster resistance is always going to be insanely high, a triangle won't mean much since you're going to just increase hit rates of tiny amounts of chip.
In order for Magic Triangle to matter, we need more variety in caster resistance, which means more caster classes. Armor, Cav, and Flier casters should be included and tomes need versions with effectiveness vs these so your triangle would actually matter (using wind vs a pegasus caster as an example), but also the base damage on tomes needs to be sufficient enough that the Weapon Effectiveness actually helps compared to another weapon.
Also missing are tomes with Target Physical. We often have magical versions of the standard weapons (bolt axe, levin sword, flame lance, etc), but we do not have the opposite. A defense targeting tome could also help caster vs caster fights (on top of a magic triangle).
But otherwise I am also not sold on a magic triangle assuming they continue with the versions previously made (small might/hit adjustments) given how low impact it generally is.
Mmmm
An anima spell like "hurl stone", and a dark magic spell that just does physical damage because why not could work like this.
Agree on more variety on magic classes. Mage armors and mage cavs would be a nice mix up
I mean, FEH is already doing the magical attack hitting physical defense thing already, so it's not out of the question.
Additionally, I totally agree with most of your assessment, except I still want a triangle anyway just because it makes sense for magical elements to interact with each other.
Iirc, Three Hopes of all things actually did have a physical tome, but that game has different gameplay
I've always wondered why it was a struggle to balance the Trinity of Magic , But then when you said it's because all mages are built similar, It made mw wonder if there was a way to add even more Mage classes that are actually build around having different growths and bases. Then you hit me with the , "Just make Magic Unique for each character" and yeah I like that too
Hot take: Mages feel so samey because they're intentionally built too similarly, I'm not sure we've EVER had an armored mage class and have wanted one for years
@@baxterbruce9827 the Baron Class from Genealogy was kind of a Physical Tanky Mage , Also in the Rom Hack Fire Emblem Three Legacies (A.K.A. Three Houses 2) there was an Anima tome that targeted Defense which was a very useful tool in the Mage vs Mage combat
@@danny18894 The issue with counting Baron for this is that:
A. It rarely has magic, other appearances have it as a much more standard armor
B. It can use almost every weapon in the game in the one time it CAN use magic, so it doesn't really feel like a "Mage Armor" so much as an "Everything armor"
I feel like they tried to make mages different but no one ever notices it in practice, like how some games have dark mages being more phisically defensive. Though I guess people tend to connect the dark mages' bulk to nosferatu more than stats...
@@GMOPsyche Tbf, Dark mages do have higher defense on average, but in practice it’s so negligible compared ti other Mages that it won’t matter all that much. If the difference was more noticeable like other classes then it would matter and by proxy the magic triangle could matter more to.
I kinda like having magic user classes feel a bit different if you want to break apart the elements. a wind mage should be dodgy and speedy, fire should have more attack, thunder more accurate and higher crit chances or something like that. Light magic has very high res and dark magic high def. Something that helps differentiate the magic styles. now obviously that’s if they are going for the older separate the elements sort of thing which I don’t mind either way
A great example of diversifying magic roles is Kaga's Berwick Saga. Fire deals excellent single damage, lightning has longer range and wind strikes twice (4x if you have the Pallas Regina). It was a lot of fun and made me want to always have a spell of each type handy in a given battle!
Once again proving that anything cool you think Fire Emblem should've done, Tearring Saga and Berwick Saga already did it first.
The luna stats on screen for FE7 and 8 don't match up with the dialog.
Crit was never 45. FE7 it was 20. FE8 it dropped to 10. It didn't lose all of its crit.
Also, in Radiant Dawn... yeah. Micaiah was technically at magic triangle disadvantage against enemy mages. But she had ludicrously high resistance, taking little to no damage, and light magic was accurate enough that being down on the weapon triangle was irrelevant.
As far a what I'd like to see, I don't like magic as an "always neutral" option like in Awakening. But as something that almost always has 1-2 range, it's a bit awkward making it play nice with physical weapons. In Fates for example, magic's advantage against bows and disadvantage against lances is somewhat irrelevant when you can just attack and not get counterattacked.
I like what the GBA games did with Anima being basic and Dark having interesting utility options. Light was bad though.
I think bringing the Light/Anima/Dark system in again would be good, but we can give Anima bonus damage options (Like Radiant Dawn) Dark offensive utility, and light defensive utility, but less power.
Dark can get Flux (hits lower of Def/Res), Luna, Miasma (poison), and a strict 3 range tome.
Light magic can get Light (accuracy drop on hit) Surge (1 range, built in vantage) Nosferatu, and Aura (inverts def/res)
Largely just brainstorming here. This seems kind of gimmicky, and would require some work to balance properly. But magic triangle advantage negating the extra effects of the opposing magic I think would be good.
We need to fuse the triangles and make them hexagons. They are the bestagons.
My take on whether we need a magic triangle is most likely a TBD case. For example, in the GBA games, having a magic triangle was feasible. But then for something like Three Houses, such a triangle may not be ideal considering all units have different spells except for heal and nosferatu. So whether a magic triangle is ideal depends on the game. For remakes of the GBA games, it could be possible to bring the magic triangle back if the available weapon types stay the same (although I would probably make bows more feasible).
I like the idea of the magic triangle being in a game with learned spells like 3H. It'd help keep both mages as well as the magic different and unique. Maybe one character has better Anima spells to nuje and not much else while another unit has more basic spells of every type for versatility.
I feel like I've always leaned in favor of the magic triangle but never sat down and thought about why. This was a good chance to, especially after analyzing your closing statements. The main use of the weapon triangle is to reinforce class identity and unit use cases, and I think it's fair to say that FE7 actually does this very well with the magic triangle.
Anima magic is war magic, magic for the sake of battling soldiers, the most commonly seen and first introduced in use by a mercenary. They do a lot of damage because armor doesn't help against it.
This consistency is ruined by dark mages, a mostly enemy class who beat them in the triangle and have high resistance. Dark magic is magic for the sake of magic and thus all-consuming, always threatening big damage.
Light magic is the one defensive counter to this. Lucius is introduced on the same map as the Black Fang as the answer to the shaman (much like Deirdre is introduced on the same map as Sandima as his counter, although she does it through her staff). But monks are not fighters, they have the least HP, Mag, and Def of the mage classes and are only good to counter evil.
Athos bringing Aureola to the final chapter helps reinforce this, with it (and not Forblaze) effective against Nergal, and the +5 Res and triangle adding up. (Of course Luna is just better offensively, and beats light users too, but it was nerfed for a reason)
Now it's still very flawed execution-wise, pegasus knights have many more use cases than light mages and beat shamans just as well. FE8 adds Slayer and monster magic to help bishops feel useful more often, and they do, but monsters are underwhelming in general and bishops' low survivability doesn't work well against their horde tactics.
Dark magic as a mostly enemy powerful class that beats anima mages, and light magic as a rare unit that is chosen to counter them, is cool though.
Really do wish we could have the Magic Triangle Back. There’s not a lot of Light-Attacking Magic and it would be a nice change of pace compared to just having the elements and some Dark Magic. It was anotha fun cog in the Combat machine that also made Support units (Healers and Priests) something else to work with given the tended to have at least half-decent Magic stats.
I wish the new games could give us the magic triangle back.
Same with easy access magic sword axe lance weapons too. Engage was this close to perfection with that if the bolt axe was available in base which make me sad it wasn't. Could have been cool to see Anna use the bolt axe for a hint to people to change her class.
I think both the waepon triangle, magic trinity and anima triangle should remain as staples, never leaving
I think the magic triangle from the gba games should be the only one and should be revived and not be dead.
I’m glad to have found your channel; I’m a bit of a Fire Emblem “noob,” only having played Three Houses, Engage, the start of Fates Birthright twice, and recently starting Awakening, so it’s cool to see more of the history of the series through your videos. You’re also just really good at what you’re doing, I’m never bored throughout the video and you make things really clear. So thanks, and keep doing what you’re doing!
The GBA games are super easy to access on your phone/PC by using an emulator with ROM downloads. 8 is my favourite, and I recommend playing them in order of 8->7->6
9:27 sorry for pointing out this small detail but I am a nerd for tellius there's actually 5 dark mages.
1 in 3-3
1 in 3-E depending on stuff in 3-13
2 in 4-1
And 1 in 4-5
All of which Micaiah never fights
Poor Clanne. Ghast just forgot about him...
Magic in Engage is super balanced between all of the unique classes. Innate weapon proficiency also helps with supplementing fringe choices.
Sage gives you access to S rank tomes, and B rank staves(A with innate proficiency), but has the lowest spd cap of magic users, and no spd growths which helps balance out units like Hortensia with good spd and low magic growths, or specializing units like Gregory into nukes. Mage Knight gives you access to breaking without engaging, as well as more movement, but you do not get access to S rank tomes. You can also get access to Brave weapons with innate prof. High Priest is the best non-prf class healer with S rank in staves, but will have neutered combat prowess without innate prof. in Arts or Tomes, but with a similarly low spd cap.
The prf classes of Celine, Ivy, Hortensia, and Zelestia also specialize them even further. Vidame has great mixed offensive caps with the high spd, but awful Dex caps meaning you'll need to supplement her hit and Dex with emblems and engraves. Hortensia has low magic growth, but her other offensive stats are great with nice caps in her class as well, but she only has access to B rank tomes restricting her from using Thoron. Ivy's class suffers from a low Dex cap like Celine's, but has S rank tomes and better movement. Zelestia is the most balanced of all of them with good mixed offenses, midling dex and spd caps, and very good mixed bulk. She's basically the Kimahri(jack of all trades) of the magic users that benefits from support in any direction you take her whether it's nuking, outspeeding, supporting, or tanking.
This doesn't get into the fringe cases like Mauvier, Chloe, and Jean which have very good cases for going into magical/mixed classes like Mage Knight, or with proper support, Martial Master. Griffon Knight is one of the premium classes, and is great on virtually everyone, but these 3 make great use of their growths in that class, and in Mauvier and Chloe's case, their innate prof. as well.
Engaging, and emblem stat bonuses also supplement the weaknesses of these classes very nicely. Putting Marth on Gregory gives him better avoid, combined with his personal skill to supplement his lack of spd, while also giving him a follow up hit while engaged. Camilla gives a spd bonus from the emblem, but also has the +5 Spd/Res skill making it good on sages, especially if they have decent Str growths/bases to use her Axe. Celica can make up for the weakness of slow mages with Echo while synergizing with backup units, and Resonance can set you up to take advantage of Veronica's Reprisal for better nuking. Micaiah makes up for low bulk mages by giving them Nosferatu, but also gives access to staves. She can also help set up Reprisal or Wrath with Sacrifice quite easily leading to strong nukes as well.
Engage balanced the magic classes nicely, and streamlined character's unique niches while allowing enough freedom to experiment. The engage system also helps supplement weaknesses or further invest into strenghts to create more diversity within the cast. I've spent the most time in the game trying to figure out what I'm going to do with the magic classes, who's going to get which ring, and who should go into mixed offensive clases. I think the weapon triangle would further complicate, and unnecessarily restrict strategies, and usually means certain characters, classes, or types of magic are always going to be worse than others. It's why people avoid sword locked classes, or don't use generalist classes. Too far in one direction, or having too little direction without any way of mitigating the downsides means you can't be creative with your strategies.
Here are my builds for Celine, Ivy, Hortensia, Veyle, Gregory, Zelestia and Mauvier
Celine Vidame
Emblem Marth
Skills
Tome Precision 5
Staff Mastery 5
Stats from Emblem
(Str+3 Dex+4 Spd+4)
Hp: 56
Bld: 11
Str: 36 (+3) 39
Mag: 39
Dex: 27 (+4) 31
Spd: 42 (+4) 46
Def: 24
Res: 36
Lck: 53
Combat Stats
Ph/Mag Atk 55
Hit 203
Avo 138
Crit 30
Ddg 58
Rating 279
Excalibur +5 Beginnings
Mt 16 Hit 100 Crit 15
Wt 9 Avo 5 Ddg 5
Ivy Lindwurm
Emblem Celica
Skills
Healing Light
Staff Mastery 5
Stats from Emblem
(Str+3 Mag+5 Res+4)
Hp: 60
Bld: 15
Str: 31 (+3) 34
Mag: 42 (+5) 47
Dex: 23
Spd: 34
Def: 33
Res: 42 (+4) 46
Lck: 17
Combat Stats
Ph/Mag Atk 67
Hit 149
Avo 76
Crit 11
Ddg 67
Rating 249
Bolganone +5 Echos
Mt 20 Hit 95 Crit 0
Wt 10 Avo 0 Ddg 50
Hortensia Sleipnir Rider Emblem Micaiah Dawn on Elthunder
Skills
Tome Precision 5
Staff Mastery 5
Stats from Emblem
(Mag+4, Res+5 Lck +6)
Hp: 47
Bld: 11
Str: 24
Mag: 39 (+4) 43
Dex: 36
Spd: 46
Def:16
Res:54 (+5) 59
Lck: 55 (+6) 61
Combat Stats
Phys/Mag Atk 56
Hit 202
Avo 177
Crit 18
Ddg 81
Rating 296
Elthunder +5
Mt 13 Hit 85 Crit
Wt 10 Avo 40 Ddg 20
Veyle Fell Child
Emblem Corrin
Skills
Knife Precision 5
Tome Precision 5
Stats from Emblem
(Hp+15 Mag+4 Res +3)
Hp: 48 (+15) 63
Bld: 11
Str: 35
Mag: 51 (+4) 55
Dex: 36
Spd: 32 (-1 WW) 31
Def: 25
Res: 44 (+3) 47
Lck: 28
Combat Stats
Phys/Mag 72
Hit 191
Avo 101
Crit 58
Ddg 58
Rating 268
Obscurité + 5 Fates
Mt 17 Hit 90 Crit 40
Wt 12 Avo 10 Ddg 30
Gregory Sage
Emblem Byleth
Skills
Healing Light
Staff Mastery 5
Stats from Emblem
(Mag+3, Spd+3 Lck+ 12
Hp: 43
Bld: 11
Str: 24
Mag: 51(+3) 54
Dex: 32
Spd: 28 (+3) 31 (-5 WW) 26
Def: 20
Res: 47
Lck: 32 (+12) 44
Combat Stats
Phys/Mag Atk 64
Hit 216
Avo 99
Crit 36
Ddg 74
Rating 258
Nova +5 Academy
Mt 10 Hit 115 Crit 20
Wt 16 Avo 10 Ddg 30
Zelestia Emblem Chrom/Robin
Melusine
Friendly Boost
Soulblade
Skills
Lunar/Solar/Eclipse Brace +
Tome Precision 5
Stats from Emblem
(+3 Str + 5 Dex and + 4 Spd)
Hp: 75
Bld: 12
Str: 40 (+3) 43
Mag: 40
Dex: 33 (+5) 28
Spd: 37(+4) 41
Def: 34
Res: 37
Lck: 24
Combat Stats
Phys/MagAtk 53
Hit 178
Avo 114
Crit 19
Ddg 44
Rating 269
Brave Sword + 5 Bonds
Mt: 10 Hit: 90 Crit: 0
Wt: 12 Avo: 20 Ddg: 20
Reasons why I gave her Chrom/Robin
Brute Force
[Flying] Giga Levin Sword
Mauvier Emblem Veronica
Royal Knight
Lunar/Solar/Eclipse Brace +
Staff Mastery 5
Stats from Emblem
(+5 to Mag +4 to Res and +6 to Lck)
Stat from Skill
Def +2
Hp: 69
Bld: 12
Str: 44
Mag: 41 (+5) 46
Dex: 48
Spd: 38
Def: 29 (+2) 31
Res: 37 (+4) 41
Lck: 30 (+6) 36
Combat Stats
Phys/Mag Atk 55
Hit 179
Avo 114
Crit 4
Ddg 56
Rating 294
Brave Lance + 5 Heros
Mt: 11 Hit: 65 Crit: -20
Wt: 12 Avo: 20 Ddg: 20
Veronica for both of his skills his personal and class skills
Contemplative synergies with Book of Worlds
Contemplative
If unit uses Wait without attacking or using items grants Def +2 for one turn
Book of Worlds advances 1 stage (to max 5) for each consecutive round that unit uses Wait. Reverts to base stage if unit triggers the effect.
[Book I: Seal] If unit initiates combat, freezes foe after combat.
[Book II: Flame] If unit initiates combat, freezes foe and sets foe’s space on fire after combat.
[Book III: Death] If unit initiates combat, deals 10 damage, freezes foe, and sets foe’s space on fire after combat.
[Book IV: Dream] If unit initiates combat, restores HP equal to damage dealt during combat, then deals 10 damage, freezes foe, and sets foe’s space on fire after combat.
[Book V: Science] If unit initiates combat, restores HP to self and adjacent allies equal to damage dealt during combat, then deals 10 damage, freezes foe, and sets foe’s space on fire after combat.
Reforge and Reprisal +
Reforge
If units Hp is 11 or more and an adjacent ally is broken after combat sacrifices 10 Hp and removes the break status from ally
Reprisal +
If unit’s HP is not full, adds 50% of lost HP to Atk.
I remember playing Radiant Dawn for the first time and I was kinda baffled when I realized that wind tomes didn't effect Haar much (of course I played FE7 shortly prior so there's that). I do agree the way magic is handled in more recent titles is more interesting. It gives more options and feels like if I pick a more niche option, I'm not just picking them because of a design preference but because they at least do something different even if they may not be the better unit from a previous playthrough.
Something I kinda wish was the development of more varied magic/staff statlines.
Awakening and Fates did this fairly well, with dedicated mages/healers with actually respectable physical bulk in the form of Dark Mages, Priestess/Great Masters, and Butlers. While they weren’t armor knight levels of tanks, they had an interesting niche where you can place them on the front lines more often without fear of death. They were fun to use.
I really want an armored magic user in future games. Engage’s mage cannoneers were fun, but imagine a mage with high defense.
Yeah, in my first Awakening playthrough Tharja ended up marrying Kellam, because a Sorcerer with Vengeance and Nosferatu makes for a surprisingly great soaking tank.
"Fimbulvetr" is the winter that's the prelude to Ragnarok.
fe 4 and 5, light and dark are neutral against each other but beat anime magic
@0:11 You said Fimblevetr correctly, and then you just threw it away lol
I don't have the confidence
@@Faerghast hahaha it's no problem, I enjoyed the video.
Triangles were cool at first but there is no need for them. Ultimately you use the right tool for the right circumstance and in most cases the weapon triangle barely matters.
Overpowered units/classes/abilities/weapons are what dictates what is good more than triangling an enemy for some slight hit/avo/MT advantage.
Break in Engage is neat though, I think that is the system they should use moving forward. It is enough to justify caring about it (sometimes) and not so much that it is obnoxious to deal with because you now have an unfixable 50 hit rate due to triangle disadvantage.
I think the other point you have to make is that enemies are mages only very rarely. So the whole idea of mage vs mage combat just rarely if ever comes into play. Having a magic triangle practically doesn't matter.
Things I wanna see in nee Fe games
Early dancer. Fates got it right.
Magic healers engage almost got it right.
Fates amiboo system so we can get true units an engage almost had it with the Veronica system
Magic triangle to make the slots useful.
Levin sword bolt axe whatever the lance is called be a weapon we can get semi early.
Fixed vs expanding enemy levels. Engage made me mad at how you could train and they only get stronger than you. Waste of time.
Break system be like 3 houses. If not unbreakable be like engage with awakening forge system.
More one shot classes they were cool
Magic lances have to be one of the most inconsistent weapons in the series
In my romhack, I made it so Light magic was well...lightweight, plus crit and gives various buffs in case of the higher grade tomes.
I Avatar'd anima and it has the most tomes: 3 for Fire and Thunder, 2 apiece for Wind and Ice, for a total of 10.
Dark is also now the debuff magic, with only Flux not having some sorta debuff/additional harmful effect.
New tomes were added to both Light and Dark so that they're both 7 apiece.
Light has Holy Armor, which is basically Munio from TLP's son. And then basically Valentia Seraphim, which grants FE8 Bishop! Slayer to anybody wielding it.
Dark greets in Spectre, which weakens Atk by 4(not Magic nor Strength), and Tartatus which puts a Sleep status on its victim.
I personally love the magic triangles from tellius, gave each magic some advantages and disadvantages and had a neat idea
Honestly, I don't particularly feel one way or the other about attempting "Magic Triangle", however I'd seriously advise them to consider copying Final Fantasy XIII's setup and tweaking it a little as a tester format. Because they have very little idea what they are doing with their triangles, and In theory you'd end up with enough unique class variations doing that. For the fun of it, I put an off the top of my head idea for the concept.
Sabatour (Traditionally a "Witch/Assassin") - Status Elements (e.g Poison, Blind, Petrify, Slow, Hex/Charm, etc) leaning into Mag, Dex and Spd.
Dark Warrior (Traditionally a "Dark Knight/Mage") - Combat Dark Magics (e.g Ultima, Life Steal, Venom Strike, etc) leaning into Str, Mag and Def.
-Filling in Dark
Medic/Healer (Traditionally a part of "White/Light Mage") - Healing Magic (e.g Heal, Revive, Rescue, Regen, Purify, etc.) leaning into Mag, Res, Spd.
Battle Priest/Priestess/Monk (Traditionally a of "White/Light Mage") - Combat Light Magic (e.g Holy, Light Ray/Beam, Smite [vs. Undead/Monsters], etc.)leaning into Str, Def, Res.
-Filling in Light
Mimic (Traditionally a "Blue Mage") - copies monster abilities. leaning into Def, Res and Dex.
Commando (For want of a better name) - Non-Elemental Magic/Boosting Magic (e.g Strength up, Ruin [see FFXIII for reference], Warp/Swap, etc.) leaning into Str, Mag, and Cha.
-Filling in Neutral
With Elemental Magic being learnable by all, and Fire (generally) being the default starter spell. As the old saying goes "It's easier to start a fire, than to stop one".
Don’t know about that but society definitely does not need fire emblem anymore (or ever did)
Yeah I’m a fire emblem fan
If the magic triangle came back
It would make sense if the disadvantaged user had their resistance reduced by an amount when fighting along with extra magic done against them so that way it would be strategic to field certain mages
At least it would be nice if they did that in radiant dawn remake
I miss the magic triangle. I propose an amplified triangle (stronger bonuses/penalties) for magic. And more diverse stat spreads for magic users would help too.
Magic doesn't need Triangles (Heck, nothing REALLY does), but rather, Mages need more class variety. Physical classes have Fighters, Mercenaries, Armor Knights, Pegasus Knights, Cavaliers, etc. Where most of the time magic boils down to "Physjcally Squishy Mage", "Mage on Horse" and "Mage but Purple"
Didnt realize Nergal's spell was called ereshkigal for so many years until after playing FGO lolz
Yeah, the magic weapon triangle has never been as effective as the physical one. However, I do really like the way they implemented effective damage against the laguz units (and by extension some beorc units) in Tellius, in addition to adding a physical weapon variation for each anima magic type. If they remade either PoR or RD, I think that they should keep the thunder effectiveness on wyvern riders, maybe add the bow effectiveness back, and give cavaliers and paladins a weakness to fire. The last would add a nice level of strategy for returning players by giving them a new mechanic to work around, especially with the number of mounted allies and fire-wielding enemy mages there are.
I also just liked what Valentia did. With started with a simple Cain/Abel pair but with Magic
I agree that there isn't a point to a magic triangle given that magical units can have such a similar spread of stats. However I would like there to be some sort of triangle where magic is strong against and weak against something. At least in perspective of Engage, instead of Arts just being the only thing that breaks daggers, bows, and tomes I would have liked to see some sort of triangle where Tome is strong against Bow but weak against Daggers and so forth. Kind of like Fates but keep the triangles separate from one another.
Help I'm being silenced Faerghast cut out 20 pages of script of me just saying mages suck /s
In all seriousness it was really fun to script for this video. Mages have been on a WILD journey through the series, and this doesn't even include FE1 where spells were just flat damage with no relation to unit power stat.
I'd want a triangle like Fates where all the weapons are in the triangle, but have other magic types and actually have some stat variety for mages. I'd want Swords, Anima, and Gauntlets that beat Axes, Light, and Bows that beat Lances, Dark, and Knives
Out of all Magic Triangles, Valflame has the best triangle. Okay for real I like the magic triangle, but it basically works in the exact same way as the weapon triangle. Maybe the bonuses should be raised and be unique. Like maybe Dark magic takes significantly less damage from anima, light or thunder getting a much higher critical hit bonus, wind granting more hit/avoid or something like that. Make magic having the advantage mean something bigger than… +2 damage and +10 hit
Honestly, I think the magic trinity is usually a good thing since it adds more flavor to different mages. Playing through Awakening and having both your staff user and magic attacker promote into a sage is boring, and don't get me started on dark magic being just a subset of tomes. It's also good for reclass heavy games since there's more room to play around with different magic classes.
Tre trinity of magic must make a return because adds variety to the amount of magic classes we have. I was not going to use both Erk and Pent but I will train Lucius and Canas. Also more magic classes means more mage enemies to make resistance more valuable.
I know mix classes are a thing from FE13, 14, 3 Houses and Engage but they tend to be bad on the highest difficulty or focus only on one weapon so that's not really a good fix to that issue.
We need a little more variety in mage classes in general, I've been suggesting an armored mage class for years because we've never had one, imagine a brick wall in heavy armor with high Defense and Resistance (Probably average HP to keep it SOMEWHAT "Balanced" even though low movement is punishment enough) flinging fireballs in a choke point to keep away attackers
Magic triangles in FE are such a dying breed that the only modern entry it has survived is Heroes. Which... released back in 2015 and is still going as of this post.
Hm.
And in Heroes, it's less "magic triangle" and more "color triangle that tomes just happen to slot into". All fire and dark magic is red like swords, all thunder and light magic is blue like lances, and all wind magic is green like axes.
I'd argue while it doesn't need to return as a trinity, I also think with a elemental resistances (blade,impact,pierce,fire,cold and arcane) system it could make all magic useful because of the weaknesses some enemies could have that simply doesn't depend on their weapon but their classes. Magic users then would not have to target enemies with the weaker tome but enemies weak to the form of damage your mages can exploit, elusive units would take more damage from blades, so the fast and accurate wind tome would be a good fit (it's literally slashing gust of winds don't tell me it wouldn't to blade damage)
I agree. Have Ice magic effective against fire and fire magic good against grass spells or something. You could have a whole load of different elemental spells.
my idea would be combine healing with light, have dark mages be more phatically defensive
I always thought the magic triangles were fun to play with. In radiant dawn it was kind of silly with the additional because of the very few dark users. Idk tho - I always find it fun (:
2 months later here and um.... yeah, I've hated the magic triangle. I feel that the best user of Dark magic I've ever had was specifically from Sacred Stones and was Ewan. Why Ewan? He had good growth in the dark mage tree, Druid just upped it and yeah, it was rare to see him hit by anyone, at least for me, and we're talking a both-paths and several deleted files player who essentially went Pirate>Warrior Ross (att I didn't know about the Berserker abilities and saw bows as great second weapon options, at the time specifically. I've learned a lot since then), General Amelia, who, for me, was amazing as the simple investment of a speedwing on Amelia made her very easy to build and run with. I actually had her going to really dangerous chapters solo specifically because she just felt so powerful... anyway, back to Druid Ewan, enemies rarely had over 50 hit on him and he felt great. Even Bishops and such didn't feel like threats. As an avid PoR fan and currently replaying RD for my first time... I just realized how much I HATE the Anima-magic mini-triangle (which requires two mages/sages deployed on top of the mandatory Micaiah in the first 11 chapters, and apparently some later ones too that aren't the final chapters?), and additionally, Fimbulvetr, Gleipnir, Nidhogg, etc are from Norse mythology, Gleipnir is the name of 1 of the 3 fetters used on Fenrir, the wolf who would kill Odin. Fimbulvetr is basically the weather pattern of an Ice Age that is planet-wide heralding the end and bringing about Ragnarok (a fire tome in some games from FE), Nidhogg is the dragon at the base of the Yggdrassil, the world tree made more famous by it being involved in quite a few Dragon Quest games, Tales of Phantasia and Symphonia (and I guess some non-existent Symphonia: Dawn of the New World that, in theory would be good, but practically speaking, most likely is dogshit), and lastly games like God of War (continuation into Norse Mythology).
Oh, and btw, circling back real quick to Gleipnir, it's also the fetter that Fenrir didn't break, the other two failures, were Leyding and Dromi. Oh, and Tyr lost a hand binding Fenrir. Also, Garm is the name of Hel's wolf. As in Hel, goddess of death, you may remember her appearance in Thor Ragnarok, though that's her Marvel-ized version... she is quite a bit more complex in actual Nordic Lore... anyway, point is those WEIRD names for the Sacred Weapons in FE8 all Norse except for Siegmund and Sieglinde which, I believe, are Germanic.
Oh, and that a lot of the weird names of tomes and weapons are Nordic and anglicized (as in translated into English versions of the names that don't use the Nordic letters)
I liked the magic triangle in Sacred Stones, at least in concept, because Anima was treated as the 'normal' magic used by the majority of both allied and enemy casters, and then Light was worse at dealing with normal humans but superior against monsters and cultists to fit its concept as a holy thing, and dark magic... well okay it was supposed to be this scary thing that's more powerful than normal magic and specifically screws up traditional elemental mages, but in practice it usually had like a 15% chance to hit. So the implementation leaves much to be desired, but the initial concept was solid.
3H seems like it *almost* had a secondary triangle. The normal weapon triangle effects were mostly removed but there's a skill you get at B rank proficiency in each, giving +20 hit and avoid when in the traditional matchups (which is rarely used because it takes up one of your limited equip slots for a very situational benefit). And there's a second set of three skills like that, which would have meant Fists beat Magic, Magic beats Bows, Bows beat Fists... except that two of them are locked behind the master ranks of the Warlock and Grappler classes, and the third is just sitting unimplemented in the code. So I'm pretty sure the idea was scrapped maybe a third of the way through development, but it might have been cool at some point.
No one of the things I'd change about FE Engage is bringing back the magic triangle and add more classes, rebalance existing ones.
Seriously why is Paladin a one weapon class? Why can theif not promote into rouge or assassin? WHY are there no FALCON KNIGHTS!!!
Actually in Radiant Dawn, there were 7 possible enemies that could use dark magic. This being the one Druid in chapter 3-3, the two Druids in chapter 3-8 that start next to Septimus, a total of three Druids in chapter 4-1 (two of the begin in the chapter, and another is a reinforcement spawn.) And of course, lastly is our baby girl Izuka.
Late to this discussion but since I’m playing through Fire Emblem on the Switch expansion pass, magic feels very different in there. Erk was an early solo carry and Canas definitely has my attention with his high skill and damage output but I’m still in the early chapters to make a final decision. I did enjoy the idea Fates tried by merging projectile weapons on top of the weapon triangle but only because it was easy to remember the effectiveness of each of them, in the long run I think hidden weapons are the best support weapons for debuffing enemies but they’re just the physical counterparts of tomes/scrolls. The dark mages in Fates have it arguably better and worse by having higher skill growth but only 1 exclusive dark tome, a worse version of Nosferatu from Awakening.
I’m also on board with keeping magic and mages their own identities, maybe we can get something from 3H where characters have their own spell level ups and have room to branch out and learn newer or better spells (like Claud learning Forsetti or even Tornado if you use Wind enough times). Additionally, I feel like if we’re given another game like 3H, I would absolutely love to have an accessory that allows units outside of the mage classes to use spells. I wouldn’t know how that would turn out but I’m still slightly upset about teaching Ignatz reason only to swap out of the mage class into an assassin.
the problem with a magic triangle is that magic units and their weapons aren't that different from one another, and when everyone has decent res and good magic these match-ups go nowhere. It's nice to have a way to tank enemy mages but offensively you're using everyone else, outside of the lopsided GBA Light vs Dark mage which is meant to favor the player.
They need a better identity:
Anima: Slight weapon effectiveness depening on magic type is okay. A Thunder spell shouldn't have the same effective bonus as a Bow into a Wyvern. Otherwise these should all be basic bitch tomes. I'd not have Wind/Fire/Thunder split up into branches with their own triangle. GBA handled that part of it well.
Dark Magic: beisdes Flux being a basic bitch tome, go wacky. Besides balancing Nosferatu (and the availability within classes), Awakening had the right idea. We had a Killer, Brave and Siege tome in that class type after all. Make them all weird, fun to fight against, and fun to use on the one or two drak mages the game gives you
Light Magic: I think the way to go with these is how heroes handled OG Staff weapons early on (MT penalty aside). Low damage magic that has debuffs and other support effects. Gravity to lock down foes, Absorb to mix healing with offense. This way, these units become fun unique tools in your roster and not objectiely inferior to Sages with Staff access. It also means that as enemies, you gotta be damn sure you're ORKO'ing the enemy healer or else they cripple you.
And if you MUST have a magic triangle, maybe just make it give you a really good bonus to damage.
Hilariously enough, mages always outnumbered Pegasus knights and Wyvern Knights in your army until reclass shenanigans happened, so how special were they really compared to Pegasus Knights (which still have a special place in my heart both for being a Fire Emblem Unique, you get mages in a lot of fantasy games but Pegasus Knights? As well as because of Best Girl Florina.)?
But yeah, if anything, mages are dime a dozen in fantasy games, but Pegasus Knights? That's way more unique already.
I’d definitely like to see it go more in the way of 3 houses, but more open to be used outside of mage classes. Let’s say…you learn some spells as you level, but despite your unit having a certain skill level in whatever type of magic, A rank in dark for example, the class they’re in may limit them to only using up to C rank dark magic. The same idea could potentially apply to weapons as well, again, if they’re more like 3 houses where the w. triangle was just done away with.
Obviously this way would make it to where everyone/almost everyone would have access to some magic no matter what, and how that affects the entire system would need to be carefully crafted. Oh, and mage classes could have default spells they can use regardless of character knowledge. A priest can always use healing magic even if that specific character never learns any on their own, for example.
Anyway, I’m just rambling at this point, so….🤷🏻♂️
The thing bout the trinity of magic, is that while the things you say are true, the trinity of magic is still, well, cool. I like the flavor it adds, I like it when mages specialize in certain types of magic and I hope that when remakes roll around (come on, Jugdral remakes, come to papa) they polish the trinity further.
I think that, giving different types of magic different properties, making the magic triangle matter by making it more impactful (maybe giving it weapon effectiveness beyond regular triangle advantage) and proliferating their users across the enemy army so that it actually comes into play once or twice could really help the trinity come into its own
Slight corrections: In Jugdral, both light and dark have an advantage over all anime magic, but are neutral to each other. In fe9, light is neutral to all magic, having no advantage or disadvantage over anything. Light magic in fe9 is particularly interesting because:
1. It shared a weapon rank with staves, with its usage tied to a class skill. Kinda like three houses white magic system, in a way.
2. Rhys is the only playable unit who can use it, and Rhys is a unit who should really never see combat, making the whole weapon type effectively pointless.
3. Despite that, the light tome is the most expensive weapon to forge in the game.
The main issue is just that the magic vs. physical meta is far more meaningful than the specifics of any magic triangle mechanics. The 1-2 range of magic and big damange against the hordes of low-resistance physical units is offset by their general squishiness against said hordes. I think what makes more of a difference, really, is availability of 1-2 range physical weapons. In games where javelins and hand axes are plenty, the utility of mages is greatly diminished (see Tellius), which is exacerbated further by high movement, high res/HP classes capable of using those weapons.
All that being said, I think the magic triangle was most functional in the GBA games - it was just hindered by the great imbalance in frequency and availability of anima compared to both other magic types.
I remember when I was trying to come up with ideas for an FE Fan game. I couldn't make it. Thinking of games I want to make is something I like doing.
I hatted they dropped light magic and I started with everything betting two elements and losing two elmaments with Light, Electric, Fire, Ice, and Darkness with Wind being neutral. But I kept mixing myself up with the odd number and added Sprites.
I got carried away with my Triangles, I had the weapons, the rouge triangle, the magic star and they formed a separate triangle. I even had an Anaimal triangle before I realized I was being silly.
As far as how classes relate to the magic triangle, I’d argue that modeling light after swords, anima after lances, and dark after axes could work. With this, light magic would be accurate and lightweight at the cost of stopping power, anima magic would be balanced across all three of these aspects, and dark magic would sacrifice accuracy and a low weight in exchange for a greater damage output. As far as the strengths of these magic categories go, it would be similar to their strengths in the GBA games. With the strengths of these magic types, the magic classes could be built, such as a light mage having stats akin a myrmidon.
If I could choose how the Trinity could return, I'd use the Three Houses weapon level system, but each time black magic levels up, the player will be given the option to increase thunder magic, fire magic, wind magic, or dark magic by 1 rank, which will start at E rank in the beginning, but will be limited to how you invest the levels by stopping the options when you hit A+ in Black Magic, leading to each run being different, with the magic ranks chosen being determinate on how the magic user can be utilized.
I feel a similar issue exists with the Weapon Triangle, at least in the Warriors games.
There is a lot of classes which are weak to Axe but have Magic which gives them an advantage against them as they lack Magic Defense. This in turn created major issues where you just send AI to kill effective targets while you manually handle "dangerous" targets and destroy them instantly while the AI would struggle.
This effectively made Armored Knights worthless as they were only useful defensively by the AI as manual control runs the risk of an enemy AI using magic on you in real combat.
As cool as a Triangle is, it only works in a perfectly balanced world or else some traits become preferable.
Really cool video! Loved the personal spell list that Three Houses had. I just wish more classes were capable of wielding magic in that game so I could experiment with it more without going full blown "you're a mage now." But that might be a personal thing, I love spellsword archetypes.
I thought dark = axe . low hit rate high powr.
But you need to make light a sword high accuracy low power, That leaves anima as a lance which kinda feel weird.
Maybe magic need different weapon triangle bonus. Like doubling/halving their speed if they have weapon advantage.
Or halving their damage.
I honestly like how they did it in Engage, with almost all range weapons having an all answer with Martial Monks but needing to close the gaps.
I don't like where the magic system is going. Yes, the rarity of magic can add uniqueness to the mages in your party and the roles they play, but if you like the playstyle and don't like the mage themselves then it ends up being, for lack of a better term, mid.
I love the concept of using swords and tomes, especially with Ignis, but my god did I not like Celine and her stupid ass dress. This goes the other way as well; I loved Anna as a character, but not as a magic user. On the other hand, I loved Citrinne, but I wanted her to be a crit nuke like Panette, but only Veyle could do that somewhat.
Just because they have failed to make it work well, doesn't mean it can't. Like with many other aspects of the game, it could be better if they actually tried.
It's kinda sad considering that going by their stat lines, Dark Magic tomes were basically the Axes of magic, Light were the Sword line, and Anima was the Lance line.
And yet, they couldn't differentiate magic users like they did with weapons users.
The main issue I am got was that there is no classes that can take advantage of a magic triangle. Perhaps what is needed is new classes that reflect the anime elements. A wind mage class can have high speed, luck, and moderate resistance in additional to moderate magical power. When they promote, they gain access to staves. This will allow the mage to be effective against thunder mages and not outshine clerics. Compared to clerics, wind class healing capabilities are much less effective. Thunder mage class will have high magic, decent skill, and low resistance. When they promote, they will become armor class. Thunder mage will not gain any movement points, but moderate good strength and defense. Additionally, they can now use Lances. Thunder mages will be able to dominate fire mages with critical hits but struggle to hit wind mages. Fire mages will have high magic, skill, resistance, and weak luck. When they promote, they become a mounted class. Because of their high skill, Fire Mages will be able to hit wind mages hard.
I hate this argument. Things get unfairly deemed products of limitation that don't need to exist anymore. 2d games died in the 1990s when 3d systems became widely available. Boss fights were up on the chopping block because uncharted had terrible boss fights. Lives and time limits are going through it right now. People falsely believe game design is a problem that needs to be solved instead of an outlet of artistic expression. Triangles don't necessarily need to be in every game, but they still have a place and claiming they need to stop being used will deny that the system has benefited good games and can still be used to great effect in the future.
Personally i actually want the magic triangle back but i want it back along with weight AND better variations in magic classes as to give more variety and to further the identity of those magic types. As personally i dont really like how magic has been used with the resent games as and this is my personal opinion but they feel "samey" to me lacking in that personal charm you see especially in the GBA titles, now i know each unit tends to have their own niche in the newer titles with what magic they use but in doing magic like that, it makes magic feel more like special super powers to me instead of a kind of institutionalized set of skills one takes time too learn, such as in FE7 how Canas support conversations with Pent really gives you the impression that anima magic is a much younger form of magic then elder magic but is seen in a better light because the magic itself wont threaten your sanity.
The whole thing i really miss is how magic "felt" different even if the units themselves tended to be somewhat the same which i wish that if they do revisit the magic triangle they add units to those magic types that fit into the general theme of that particular magic so as to further the point that these are institutionally understood forms of magic and with specific strengths and weaknesses and even explore how some animals are fine with or not fine with different types of magic like say the Pegasus are scared/hate Dark and anima magic but are fine with light magic or hell make a brand new mount thats fine with dark magic like a giant toad that has less movement then horses but keeps its full movement in forests and can travel over water ( the witches need their frogs)
So if the problem is that mages are built the same… are we saying there should be more variety in mage classes?
Like make mage archetypes that are similar in nature to the martial classes? Ones that are especially resistance tanky, or have high crit? Or just more might in general?
in shining force, spells could multi target, and unlike balistae in fates, multi kill. your casts were limited by your mana, but it really did make them feel like powerful, valuable, nuclear weapons, when raised long enough to bear fruit.
Society in general? No, triangles are way too important to society.
Fire emblem? Also No, the game is more fun when we have those funny little 3 sided object.
I like the triangle with two lines off of it model from Genealogy.
Yea haar the lord of oh sorry fell asleep and killed 50 guys (he also happened to come into the fight next to a mage in chapter 2 part 4 or 5 who drops nullify so yea not gonna grab that and make him god)
You didnt mention the weird thing with thunder magic in radiant dawn. For some reason, it has both the lowest might AND the lowest accuracy, with a slightly higher crit rate, so it was pretty much strictly the worst magic type.
Also i know this guy didn't just pretend that Canas with dark magic isn't the literal best unit in the game in FE7.
as you said in the end of the review the weapon triangle function as a magnifier to the classes that use then, if magic classes are not built more uniquely like phisical classes having a weapon triangle is mostly pointless or heavily mitigated at least
I mean they already have it in their name destructive fire mage to harm the tiles next to you, they all fell the same way with diffrent tome names,give them unique mechaniks.
Still laughing at Lapitus. LMAO LMAO. Did no one proof read this?
Part of the problem is the lack of reasoning for why one type of thing is strong/weak against another thing.
I would argue all triangles be removed altogether. There are other ways to have both variety and balance.
Nah bro give us back the gba weapon triangle system it was good simple and logic
Nah the best system was in the gba titles. Then fates. Engage magic system is the wordt kind of it
The triangle is needed to keep mages from blindly steamrolling everything.
1:11 So uh I don't see any triangles and don't know what you're talking about.
This is heresy. Pythagoras will hear about this and he will not be pleased.
3H didn't invent the spell list. It reused the idea from Gaiden.