ENGLAND TO CALL UP 4 SOUTH AFRICANS??
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- Опубліковано 23 тра 2024
- What are your thoughts on players qualifying to play international rugby based on residency? A question which bubbles to the surface again after rumours England are considering some potential South African converts.
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I'm a Saffa, living in England for the last 4 1/2 years. I don't have aspirations of playing for England at 53, but I reckon the line should be citizenship, not residency. Having our boys playing over here in the UK, and France and Japan is brilliant for South Africa as we don't have enough tier 1 teams to accommodate them all. It's also brilliant for their temporary host nations as we all learn from each other. But to wear a countries colours.. They need to be the colours from where that player was born, or to where they have changed permanent allegiance. Residency doesn't cut it in my opinion.
I'd agree, but then many Governments fast track applications from elite sportsman which stinks too, unless they're a refugee who had to flee their original country.
And what about people with dual nationality who have the right to reside in both but have spent all their life in just one?
The reality is there's no rule which fits every case as people's circumstances vary so much.
For me it's where your heart and loyalty are. But how do you prove that or set up a fair set of rules to reflect that? And plenty of people love both the country they grew up in and their adoptive country.
I agree about passports, well detailed! thanks
That is a good call, if they are going to commit to a national team they need to commit to the country.
England need good players, you must watch out
Only 53? I'm now 78 and still hoping .....but it would take a better coach than Borthwick to recognise my talents.
As a South African we are used to this in our cricket, now it's our rugby . It leaves a bitter taste in the mouth. But it's the player's choice.
As an England fan i wouldn't be happy with this. We lost to Scotland in 6 nations to a South African van der Merwe carrying Scotland. It just doesn't sit right with me. I think South Africa are the only team from the World Cup that don't have a player in their sqaud that is from another nation. England are 2nd with only 3 players, Billy Vunipola Manu Tuilagi and david ribbans who was born in South Africa but his his dads side of family is from England so he still qualifies. I don't even think any of those 3 players played in the World Cup either. Same for Marcus Smith actually, his mum phillipines but his dad is English.
Then you have teams like ireland, 3/4 of their best players who carry the team are from New Zealand and Ireland have a total of 8 overseas players.
Wales have 10.
Italy have have 12
New Zealand have 9
Scotland have 15
Tonga 20
Australia 7
Japand 20
Samoa 24
South Africa 0
Some of these numbers are ridiculous.
@@hithere3035 Tendai Mtawarira "The Beast" was Zimbabwean.... but yeah it's so close that it kinda doesn't count :P
@@WinterWeaver Tendai retired five years ago!
Why not ,South African team is quota based..will be at 60% non white . So all the best player HAVE to leave anyway, cause will not make the team
I think with RSA, Namibia and Zim it is a bit different since in the age group structures (Craven Week) they play with our teams. So players are scouted at high school level. I don’t know if it is like that with other nations, but I just hope we never catch on to the trend of scouting experienced players.
But then again, with the depth that exists in SA 🤷♂️, can we blame them? (The guys who leave)
But playing overseas where a different brand or style of rugby is played doesn’t help them either since we play “a certain style”.
*Edited to avoid confusion
Four South Africans, Jeremy? Four? That's insane.
Didn’t expect to see a Peep Show quote in here, but I’ll take it
I'm in the big leagues now
Chance would be a fine thing
Ooh too big for the South Africans Jez? We're having a laugh, a bloody good laugh.
When they tour in South Africa, they can stay at their mums' houses 👌. I think once you've made the rules, it is what it is.
Citizenship, not residency should be the bottom line.
Genuine question: do you not have to be a passportholder to play for a country?
You don't. Just residency
@@davidgormley7990 I’m on your team. Maybe singing the national anthem with passionate should be the filter just above your bottom line
@tristansolero2159 I'm Irish. We've done very well from the residency rule and I don't doubt the commitment of those players who qualified under it. I just think if you play for a national team you should be a citizen of that country.
@@davidgormley7990 That's it Dawid. Simple|.
From a South African I can say that these are human beings and they should do what is best for them and Thier families.
Can't say better, but it's also what says EggChasers, not fan but good for them.
That's nice. No need to rely on home-grown talent anymore. It makes a mockery of international rugby.
I see your point but if they want to play international rugby but don’t get called up to their nation of birth what option do they have, never play international rugby even if they’re of that pedigree? These players have a limited career they should be entitled to make their living however they want don’t you think? I do see your point though but 5 years is in some cases half of a players career without getting a call up.
Apart from South Africa who have 0 players from overseas. England are the 2nd lowest with 4, but 2 of those qualify by ancestry. Ribbans and Smith have English on their dad side. The residency ones i find hard to swallow. Then you look at teams like Ireland, who have 9 overseas of which 4 of them from New Zealand and 1 american totally carry that team. Personally as a proud English man, i could never put on another countries kit.
@@Dihedrals My point still stands. All this will do is strengthen rich countries at the expense of others. International rugby is a test of a nation's character. What does it mean when character can be thwarted by a chequebook?
@@hithere3035 I mean you’re not wrong and I will happily admit you make an excellent point but I just think it’s the pay thing. As Tim put perfectly well it’s just about the money they get paid, they need to make their salary for their whole life in a short span of time and how small their wage is compared to the likes of football I feel like let them choose.
@@n-tertainmentx-tended4760 I don’t see it being an issue 5 years without a call up from your national team means they don’t care for you, let them earn the money they need to before they retire. I do see your point though not saying you’re wrong.
Completely agree, Tim.
The "project player" model diminishes international competition. You don't go to France to order coffee at Starbucks.
So you think Sport should be ruled by rich nations or nations that have more resources. Smaller nations should be put in their place, get rid of the vunipolas tualagi and the rest of the foreigners that play for England . Does this diminish your one and only win in the World Cup ?
@davidwalker2402 Que?
I'm a South African born and raised Springbok supporter.
I don't like seeing England full of Vunipolas and Tuilagis. Not a race thing, mind. But if you have three brothers each playing for different countries, it gets quite absurd.
It makes international rugby just another tier of the club game.
@@MerckZ21 yes but every international sport has players and athletes participating for countries they were not born in, should the best players/athletes be disregarded from participating in international sport because they come from a country with two many 1500m runners too many fly half’s, many rugby players have moved countries been better trained to become better players the world of sport is a much better place for the inclusion of all the best talent on the planet .
@davidwalker2402 It's a valid point, but I'm with Tim - just because I understand it and see arguments for it, doesn't mean I have to like it.
I guess I'm old fashioned. Which, for clarity's sake, doesn't mean I'm hateful. As a Springbok fan, I grew up watching an England side packed with Johnny Wilkinsons and Jason Robinsons. They played for England with heart and passion because they had national pride in their country.
A lot of their modern players just seem like they're picking up a pay cheque. They're imported or poached. They're not homegrown. They didn't grow up dreaming of playing for England. In those tight matches where the likes of the Boks dig a little deeper out of love for their country, and pull off 1 point wins out of sheer tenacity and will, it just doesn't seem to be the case for the likes of England. It doesn't always make a difference, but there's a decent track record of it.
By way of example, look at Bongi Mbonambi during the 2023 World Cup rallying his troops by saying repeatedly, "For South Africa!". Can you imagine Billy Vunipola saying "For England!". Courtney Lawes might, but I wouldn't foresee that would inspire any extra pride or passion in the likes of Manu Tuilagi or AN Other New Zealander or South African playing in white who, in their heart of hearts, would rather be playing in black or green and gold.
As Tim said, it doesn't mean that I blame them for taking the opportunity presented to them. And many of them do play for their adopted country with passion and pride. But it's more the exception than the rule.
Apologies for the lengthy diatribe, but it's something that has annoyed me about international sport for a while. I probably shouldn't care so much, but the nostalgia is strong with me.
The fact you can play for one nation and then play for another by the next World Cup is crazy. May as well just have the champions cup and get rid of international rugby if people want anyone to play for anyone
Always the first and best place i come for my rugby news and opinions 🙏
Could not agree more.
I love your insights into the game. Unbiased and well considered as ever. aluta continua!
well looks like the Bokke will have to defend the World cup against South Africans in the next world cup
It doesn't matter, they don't have Rassie.
@@jennymulder1671 They might get Nienaber.
@@gkolivier8918 I have money on Nienaber finding his way back to the Boks within the next 4 years.
😂🤣😂🤣
haha
I'd ban it personally, despite the fact that we (England) have benefited in the past. Having said that I think exceptions should be made for people who came over as youngsters and therefore their rugby education took place in their new country.
It is unreal how many top class players South Africa produce.
I agree that if you come as youngster. Not as a professional though. Kiwi perspective
We haven't actually benefitted that much from picking England based Saffers. Matt Stephens, Botha, er...........................
You believe the countries with the most resources most money most people should dominate world rugby mmmmm, considering England fall second in those categories they have a piss poor record in rugby .
If SA were allowed to field 2 teams in the World Cup, their depth is such that they could feasibly play each other in the final.
@@jkmb5758not in the backline that's for sure.
I have lived abroad in Madrid for 7 years. I can understand the affinity you build up with a country. You make local friends and their families and if Spain was ever moronic enough to have asked me to represent them, I would have felt very proud to have done so.
I think we all okay with a few players now and then following this path, but we want it to an exception. Trying out 4 at one time is kind of pushing it.
But there's a bigger problem here. We don't see many NH players in the same position. South Africa just churn out so much talent, their development at youth level is so good. You see some of their schools rugby and some of the athletes are scarey. They are playing in front of thousands of fans. It's no surprise they produce so many test match players that they cannot fit in to their test squads.
As an Englishman, I respect that.
It's really not a talent issue though. The problem is purely economic. If South Africans didn't have to leave their country to get decent pay and good living conditions, the residency rule would not matter.
Well said
Seems onlything not world class about us is the ANC, let's hold on to our rugby players and get rid of the ANC.
I agree with you
That's the main issue. The anc implemented the quotas that started the exodus of white players to europe
Scotland are full of them
If you look at their jersey very carefully, you will see that they have at least replaced the thistle with a Protea.
and the better for it mate
Fynbos/Heather.. same same
I can accepting them more than the ones with the only connection being their grandparents were Scottish. The grandparent ruling is outdated and totally ridiculous.
@@benrawson007 Agree. My father was born in England and my nephew, at Heathrow for a stop over in transit from SA to Canada, cannot pop into London for a pint, can't even leave the transit lounge in the airport because he does not have a visa, but can start for England in their next game.
Fantastic insight. Thank you!
I totally agree with you but I was born in Argentina and came to this country when I was 14 but played my Rugby and loved it but I'm through and through English and proud of my country England.
Big difference, between 14 & 24+ .
We have so many class centers...Shasha Ngomozulu Fynburg🙆🏿😱🇿🇦 skill level is on another level.
Like always, a very balanced view. Tricky topic, indeed.
Great show. Such balanced commentary
Hi Tim your the best i spend six month's a year in Cape Town a Swallow and a Bok superfan and i watch School boy rugby its now a a shop window for the last Paul Roos game reps from France
As a South African it gives rise to conflicting feelings because a lot of these players would probably never become Springboks. So it's nice for them to still be recognised at international level. But when they play against the boks and do well it's hard not to be upset.
I have to back the players on this. Opportunity for players to make bank is rare. And we get the best players on the field. The previous world cup was amazing ! It's given other countries a chance against the big teams.
The most intelligent comment on this post I 100% agree
Completely agree with your take here, both in terms of individual decisions, overall selection rules, and which of the four players I see actually making an England squad.
Totally agree Tim but I can't help wondering how the other competing england players feel about these placements
I agree players should not be eligable to play for other countries, unless there's a heritage background or become citizens.
To be clear 5 to 6 years is typically long enough to obtain citizenship.
I can think of at least one prominent Australian player who played his entire career, whilst being a New Zealander...
Heritage? Like grandparents? In a globalised world many young people have grandparents from a different country and it's only going to get more. More and more people are working around the world and starting families. You may have Chinese grandparents yet never been to China, why does that make it more accepting than a person than moved to a new country, embraced it, contributed to the community, love the country etc?
You can live in the UK for 5years and apply for a UK passport. 5 years is more accepting than grandparent ruling.
The fact you can play for one nation and then play for another by the next World Cup is crazy. May as well just have the champions cup and get rid of international rugby if people want anyone to play for anyone
We all came from cave mens apparently so how far back do you want to go? 10 years, 50, 100, 1,000, 20,000 a million years?
@@animated_ads Andrew Mehrtens was born in South Africa and played for the All Blacks- couldn't get that 1995 win could he?
4 south Africans depriving 4 Englishman of the possibility of playing for their country of birth is bollocks...
No, they are not. Maybe these 4 Englishmen should strive to be better, and not cry about it because they can't be better.
Terry as a South African I agree with you. Quotas are a problem in RSA which prejudice white players, but the discrimination is not your country's problem consequently an Englishman should not be "replaced" by a South African but South Africa must select on merit and abolish quotas.
@@68stuzzy bollocks
@@louisvanniekerk2612 hey Louis... I've lived in South Africa for the past 43 years and have always supported England because it's my country of birth. I fucking hate watching foreign players playing in an English jersey... I guess I'm just old school... 😁👍
@@louisvanniekerk2612 the quotas won the World Cup and it's giving you people chest pains... 😂😂😂
Hanro deserves some recognition, been unbelievable every game
Agreed, this model is watering down the “international” competition!
I take your point Tim. But if you allow dubious older generation relatives to allow qualification; why not residency?
Agreed. The grandparents ruling if ridiculous now in a globalised world were many have grandparents from a different country and it's only going to get more and more with people moving round the world to work and live. (I'm one of them).
You can get a UK passport by living in the UK for 5 years, far more accepting when someone moves to a country and embraces it as their own.
@@benrawson007 Just watch the players singing their team's national anthem before a game. You will then see who shouldn't be playing for that country.
@@jkmb5758 Yes I agree, it's not an exact science but I get your point.
If you are South Africa, born and raised there yet have Scottish or English grandparents, you may had never been to Britain you should not be allowed to qualify under that, you can't get a passport under that ruling but you can play sport.
@@jkmb5758 saw Feyi Wabosa struggling with the words to GSTQ in his first game.
I don’t have a problem with the rule but there should be a maximum limit in any game day squad. I think of the players who have been left out because of a foreign player and I wonder how fair that is. I think for a country like England, which has so many players, it seems ridiculous that they have to resort to poaching foreign talent. It’s a bit different for Scotland and Ireland and Wales with a much smaller pool to choose from, but even then there should be a limit - I suggest TWO maximum.
But when players deny a call up from the country of birth the must be extra years added or it would be a complete exile from SA and the other financially struggling nations
You’ll find very few countries are interested in English players so not only England don’t want them.
All Rugby unions spend big money in developing players from grass roots up to senior level.I think that if a national side chooses to use a foreign born player,then the national rugby union of country of birth must be compensated.thats fair.especially tier 2 nations could benefit greatly and invest in developing their structures to grow the game.I honestly believe that would be a win win for all.
Tim, we have a player called Weapon X Henko Van Wyk who plays for the Lions and can't get a look in. As a Saffa living in London for over 25 years I wish these boys luck look at Duhan they go on to be brilliant ambassadors for the sport and for South Africa where they don't get a look in
You summed the final up very well, as a Leinster fan the better team won , but what a game it was
I don't think Tyrone is even interested in playing for England, he's been asked for years by pundits and always says his big dream is to play for the Boks. As a Quins fan I'd love to see it, but as a Rugby fan it's not right is it
He'll accept a cap if it's offered.
Bok team is not easy toplay4
Too much local talent in the back 3 at the moment. SA has some scary backs coming online in general. If world rugby thinks changing the set piece rules to encourage running rugby and "de-power" the Boks, they might get a nasty surprise come nxt WC!
Is his defence good enough for international rugby? I’d argue no.
National representation should be on the basis of citizenship only. In other words, if you hold the passport of a country, then you should be able to represent that country.
On the other hand, residence-based qualification isn't great, and is likely to benefit some (richer) countries at the expense of other (poorer) countries.
England, Scotland, Wales & NIreland come under the UK passport so your idea wouldn’t work I’m afraid. I’d be happy to disband the Union, so I could have an English passport however :-)
@@rdw9747 Good point, there's a complication there.
Nevertheless, the principle should still hold that unless you hold a UK passport, you should not be able to represent one of the countries of the UK. Residence can then be applied as a second-tier criterion to determine which of the UK countries you qualify to represent.
The citizenship requirement is still the best primary criterion.
Remember, though, that we're not only talking about the UK in this conversation. The principle should hold for Australia, SA, New Zealand, France, Italy, USA, Fiji, Japan, and all rugby-playing nations. It just so happens that the UK has an additional layer of complexity with the passport rule-but it's certainly not an unsolvable issue.
@@mu8911 I'd just like to point out that anyone born in Northern Ireland has dual citizenship and hold both passports.
@@mu8911 i was joking a bit. I agree with you mainly. I was just raising the point that the UK is in fact the “country” & E, S, W & NI are pretty much just states…
@@SMacCuUladh like Jewish people?
I hear you and your point of view on this Tim however, if a player is not selected for his own country for whatever reason and does legitimately qualify for his adopted country then big ups, it just means the best players in the world will be on display
As long as there is good rugby I'm happy. A lot of those guys won't get a chance to in SA because of the depth, so its cool that they get a shot at international rugby.
5yrs is too short. I can't remember the player, but a few years ago there was a Kiwi being touted as an England international. He said something along the lines of being flattered to be considered, but he was a Kiwi and it wouldnt feel right. Total respect for that. I'm sure there are a lot of Saffers who feel the same. The difference is financial I guess - you could be set for life with the money England internationals are on. I have English and Irish parentage. I was born in Ireland, but raised from 5 in England. I couldnt have played for Ireland (was never going to be an option, obviously) becuase I feel English.
Yet you can get UK citizenship and a passport if you have lived in the UK for 5 years. So why can't you play for England or ireland or France national sports team?
The grandparent ruling is ridiculous and outdated.
@@benrawson007 other people have made that comment. Maybe you should have to take citizenship and a passport?
@@paulmulryne8405 possibly but I think the 5 year ruling now is sufficient
I agree with you to a certain degree, in South Africa, we have a quota system so quite often the school players are quite often are already looking to move overseas soon as school is finished because of that specific reason. Another thing money talks, if they know they are going to have small chance of playing even provincial rugby in South Africa for that same reason.
Your analysis is always great and insightful. Keep it up
😂quota system has win 2 world cups whites only has won how many . Whether you like it or not going forward Boks will have all races those white Boks only days are long gone mate ,get over it will ya
I just want to world to know how much I hate you. Sorry Tim we still have racists like this in RSA.
Stop talking kak. There is no qouta system, the schools and clubs were so racist that they'd play all white teams in spite of Blacks and coloureds being the best talent wise, especially in the backline. We just won back to back world cups with a completely balanced team as far as representation, and you racists are still moaning about qoutas.
Can you name some of the current qouats?... Do you know how competitive SA School rugby is, the black and coloureds are the best players at those schools, you think Sacha Mngomezulu or Boogie or Damian Willemse was a qouta, gtfoh
Fully understand yr pov Tim
We, in Ireland, cannot complain. We have had the pleasure of having imports improve the Irish game. It's a 2 way thing.
Of course you guys wouldn't complain, otherwise the irish game wouldn't be as good as it is now thanks to foreign players.
Sure you can have foreign players playing IN your country but not FOR your country.
@@davidtuer5825 exactly... But the sheople simply don't get it!
@@davidtuer5825 and use them when the internationals are on duty
Different story if your o'seas born players 'learnt' and plied their trade before turning professional in your country but Ireland imports already professional players to play for Ireland.
Two perspectives. 1. I'm a pom who went to South Africa when I was 23. It has given me everything in my life. I happened to be born in the UK. But that means nothing to me now. I am South African and eternally grateful and would play anything for South Africa (if they ever asked). So, the movement can work both ways. 2. I wouldn't worry about South Africans who want to play for other countries and especially anyone now over 25. The talent coming through in most positions is ridiculous. You can trace the line of that success right back to Rassie E.
I agree with it, south africa has a huge player pool and only a few can become springboks. They deserve to make a living and play at an international level.
With two doors open, is the competition at SA schoolboy level re: loose forwards bound to hit increasingly epic levels never seen before, in any position worldwide? Will this work for or against us?
I have no problem with residency to qualify for a team as long as they are patriotric to their adopted country.
Some players also marry a local woman and have a family where they live and stay after retirement. Nice for the wife and kids for the father and husband to play for the adopted country.
CJ Stander after he retired was supporting Ireland in the last world cup, even when we played against South Africa, that's how it's done, class act!
@SMacCuUladh Agreed and he was thankful for the opportunity
@@SMacCuUladh Yes and as a South African I am all for that. We did not give him a chance and Ireland did just like they did for Aki, Gibson-Park and Lowe when NZ did not.
I see quaifying for a country no dfferent to lving in a Province and playing for it. As long as you have pride for the jersey and are not just there for the paycheque its good.
I do however think that provinces and countries should still have a focus for locals too to ensure the game expands in that region and stays healthy and out of country players can help that by bringing locals to games.
Freddie Michalak played for The Sharks for several seasons and I would have had no issues if he played for the Boks. He blended in with the locals and helped the local game.
@@bunnychowmuncher No boet, you are making the Irish / Scottish mistake of confusing club rugby and international rugby.
In your opening comment, you spoke of patriotism towards the adopted country. If CJ Stander was patriotic towards Ireland, why did he move back to SA the minute he hung up his boots? Why is Bundee Aki's 14 year old daughter going to school in New Zealand? Why did Jean Kleyn jump at the chance of a Springbok selection? Why did Duhan van der Merwe leave Scotland within months of qualifying and playing his first game? These are just a few examples...
Watching Ireland play Scotland is like watching Super Rugby, and they were the teams that World Rugby pointed a finger at when they extended the residency period to 5 years. Even then, due to Covid, the law was postponed for a couple of months and between Ireland and Scotland, made full use of the postponement by bumping 6 players into their sides. That's 20% of a combined starting lineup!
It's total BS.
@@bunnychowmuncher stop talking kak
South Africa is not immune to using residency to their advantage: Adrian Garvey, Christian Stewart, and Beast Mtawira were all happily accepted as Springboks despite not being born in SA.
Shortest list by miles....Beast was not a rugby player bought, we turned him into one, Garvey to, Stewart..unfortunately should never have been...we were just confused and desperste..wont happen again, thats history we wont repeat, these teams full of other nationals are planning for their future, big difference.
Beast is a product of the sharks academy and those other players you mentioned are hardly modern era
Can actually bet you had to Google non SA born players to draw up those names because they're not pro era at all
You reaching 😅😅😅
Spot on, agree 100%
Totally up to the players where they choose to play, if they are not getting games in one place but plenty of game time elsewhere why not try and get into whatever national team they can qualify for. I also get the argument against it but the rules are there and clearly stated.
Hi Tim , I’m from SA and to me it’s like they are taking up an Englishman position and if you not good enough to play for your own country then how can you play for another country, I feel a different case if you country is war torn. Look at cricket like Kevin Petersen played for England
I get your point with KP, but didn't he also qualify through having an English parent?
I agree with you, but if anything it highlights how much talent we have here in SA. If you're not 'good enough' for the Boks but good enough for another team, it shows how high the Boy standards are.
Thank goodness that Pietersen became English.He is a giant chop.
Kepler Wessels captained both Australia and South Africa in cricket. How can that be right?
International sport is being diluted a lot. When it’s only a handful of players no one bats an eye lid but imagine the day when say England vs Ireland has two full teams of residency players. Is that still England vs Ireland or just two clubs teams
100% agree with your sentiments
Totally agree with you.
I'm a Saffa, and if you have watched chasing the sun, you will understand why these SA players going to England will never amount to anything - and neither will England if they do this. You cannot tell me that a player, playing for another country he didn't grow up in, can put his entire heart and soul into fighting for that country. You simply cannot get to that emotional place you need to be to win a world cup playing for a country that's not your own. Congratz England, if you do this this you just knocked yourself out of the quarter final 2027.
Calm down
@@rob.1 I'll second that. 🤣
Why hold back a player’s progress, Boks are blessed with a pool of rugby players. I’m happy to give our surplus to other countries.
Van der Merwe has done great for himself in Scotland, CJ Stander for Ireland and the list is endless.
Just wondering, what could’ve been World Rugby’s reaction if it was SA selecting players from other countries. Prospects of changing the laws of the could be on the cards.
World of rugby you can have our talent, its in the best interest of growing the sport.
Agree with you, international sports is about pitting one country against another
Recently, the French Rugby federation has lifted the "passport restriction" to apply only World Rugby rules. It followed the administrative problem in getting Posolo Tuilagi his passport in time to play in the U20 World Cup: he arrived in France with his father at age 3, began to play at 6, he fullfilled the requirement for citizenship, but until 18 he could not have a passport. He, like Emmanuel Meafu, Tevita Tatafu, trained under the Federation process so are JIFF (indigenous player), while the French player Thibaut Flament who trained and began to play (university) in England is not.
To lose Green is just insane. I can't blame the players.
I also feel players should be allowed to move. It makes the international game more competitive. What will Ireland be without Gibson-Park, Louw and Aki?
South African also have "transformation" targets which make it difficult for these guys to get into a Springbok team. At the beginning of 2022 there were 132 South Africans playing in the Top 14, Gallagher Premiership, League One, and European URC teams. Of those 115 where white players that won't be considered because they won't help the "transformation" targets.
Just looking at SA locks playing outisde of SA, there are 29 in the top leagues: Lood(Wild Knights), RG(Munster), Kleyn(Munster), Willemse(Montpelier), Jenkins(Leinster), Schickerling(Kubota Spears), Bulbring( Kubota Sprears), Botha( Kubota Spears), Janse van Rensburg(Montpelier), JJ Van Der Mescht(Stade Francais), Marias (Bordeaux), Pieterse(Castre), Ori(Perpignan), PJ Steenkamp(Toshiba Brave), Franco Mostert(Honda Heat), Walt Steenkamp(Mitsubishi Sangamihara), Du Plessis(Bath), Herbst(Harlequins), Lewies(Harlequins), De Chaves(Newcastle), Andrews(Sale), Groves(Sale), Van Rhyn(Sale), Wiese(Sale), Koeglenberg(Benetton), Du Preez(Glasgow), Manjezi(Glasgow), Sekekete(Ospreys), De Leeuw(Zebre)
there's no point making the international game more competitive if that is done by making it no longer international.
@@timgregory82 Does that mean the world cup soccer is not international anymore? There are many palyers that has won the soccer world cup playing fir adobted countries.
If we had more international teams that can win the world cup, I will agree with you. Untill we get there I say lets make it more competitive.
It’s incredibly insulting to imply Ireland would be useless without GP louw and AKI we also have lions players Murray ringrose and henshaw to fill those places. What would England have been without tualagi and vuinopolas . You posted complete diatribe without ever thinking. Half the problem here…South Africans play outside South Africa 1 because of training which they’re encouraged as youths and because they get paid much better in the NH , just like foreigners playing in the premiership. It’s a small world now should mo Farrah give back his medals along with other non Born GB Athletes..
Turning international rugby into the new Currie Cup.
@@Blindside_Flanker you forget world rugby athletics world soccer all apply the same rules and so far it works pretty well.
miles ahead of you on this topic in Scotland;) from years of observing this i can tell you that ultimately the effect it has is to increase the level of competition in the team thus improving the standard of the home born players. i would also add, that i think it's less ridiculous than the old "i've got a Scottish granny but i've never been to Scotland" story. i think it should be limited to parents not grandparents at least.
Couple more south africans qualify for other countries but have said they would only play for sa out of choice. Sacha feinberg-mngomezulu is the most recent to turn down an offer for a foreign selection squad
What about limiting the number of imports? I agree at a certain point the national flavor would be reduced by too many imports and secondly there is merit in local players knocking on the door being offered first opportunity to grow into international rugby.
I agree with you exactly. Only one point. I think of you change countries you should be a citizen of the country.
We are a country of many nationalities, I recently discovered that I am not 100% English but I am as far as I am concerned English and love my country, if players choose to live work and decide this is the country of their choice I don’t see a problem.
It'd about where you grow up. That's the point. Not if you have some distant something in your ancestry. Because when it's about where you grow up it's about the culture that makes the player. That's what international sport should be about. You see it with the distinct styles of Nz France england South africa and that's what makes it interesting
I have no objection to the residency rule. Our identity shouldn't be defined by where we're born, or where we were brought up, those are the result of decisions made by our parents. People have their own reasons for their feelings of allegiance and loyalty to a country. A young player who moves to a country for little more than a change of scenery may meet a partner, make connections within the community, or simply appreciate the chance they've been given and welcome they've received; as a result they feel far greater allegiance to that country than where they may have been born.
Thanks Tim , you said what I was going to say, if you're a rich rugby nation within a strong league, they going to snap them up, don't agree with it, but can see the players perspective too. Imagine an SA side with all the players from poached nations, now that would be side to behold
I follow a lot of what is happening in the English game through your channel and various highlights packages and follow the South African players progress and it is a very difficult situation because there are some serious "over achievers" in some of the names you mentioned. A lot will depend on whether Steve Borthwick will go all in and select some of them. The question has to be asked, is the import player you are bringing in a better player than the English players in that position? If there were no eligibility rules, would you leave out George Furbank and put Tyrone Green in the England no 15 jersey?
I'm happy for them all🇿🇦
So what rules would you apply to eligibility to play for a country? Born & Bred in the country ? Parents? Grandparents ?
Some countries don't want certain players, so they go everywhere, but i do think there should be a cap on how many foreign players can be on a national team .
For me the only one I'd look at would be von Rensburg, mainly as we have coverage in players in the other areas, and some new upcoming talent in them but centers is where we seem weakest
One move should of course be permitted in a players life. You can't choose where you're born, but you can choose your home.
I agree, what's the solution?
All ears... Sensitive topic to comment
If IRB want to spight Rassie; then IRB will overrule all the unions rules about players being eligible for international tests, where ever a player might be...
I think that it should be that if you become a resident at a young age - as a child you become eligible as you are apart of the culture of the country
I believe it should be once you've played for a national team, you can't switch. Once you've chosen to play for England, it's because you've changed your nationality, you play in England, and you cannot change back, your path is chosen... Not only is the rugby market full of talent in SA and not enough teams to cater for them, there is also a quota(affirmative action) issue that many players have to face.
Forget the residency rule, no player should be allowed to "switch" nations, I'd prefer Borthwick be allowed to pick France based Englishmen, that makes more sense to me.
A back line with Smith 10, Ollie 12, VRB 13, Green 15 would be insane. I agree from a player perspective, like a training squad is 33-36 players for a country that can probably have hundreds of top tier players. If another country you qualify for says let’s go, you gotta go. But yeah, it does kind of take the merit out of the game if countries can just buy their players to fill shortfalls.
Yea get your point as a fan. I do think that 5 years is a decent requirement. If not, you treat immigration unfairly. Personally I would like all of our products to be exclusively for our team. So we can stretch our advantage but again unfair to the individuals. Also they add to the teamsvthey join making overall rugby mite competitive. As a fan I like close games.
The SA conveyor belt is alive and well. The wealth of riches SA has is astonishing. There can only be 33 in the squad at a time, and many more on standby.
Fair point Tim
I understand countries with smaller players pools/club teams eg Scotland with two teams it makes sense to fill gaps with project players, however countries like france and eng with 14 and 10 club teams shouldn't need project players as they should be producing plenty of indigenous talent
My heart says national teams should field nationals. Last world cup only SA and Argentina had genuine nationals.
BUT I understand the dilemma facing top players from SA.
Looking at the last few Rugby World Cups, it seems that there’s at least one South African in every team. As either player or coaching/support staff.
It must be a rule then that there must be at least one Saffa per rugby team :)
I agree, it's not a good idea. What's that about?
South Africa has such incredible depth that players who would be national anywhere else don't get a look in. As a South African, I'm sad to see those players go, but I'm happy for them when they get an opportunity to play at the level they deserve to, but would never be able to if they stayed.
Tim the one problem that the Springboks and home unions in South Africa have is the Quota systems so some really good excellent players are forced to ply their trade overseas.
Fully agree with you. But yes its difficult. The professional era means "gladiators" for sale. But yes I feel at international level preference to truly homegrown players. I think SA has done well with this. Lots of other national teams make use of "gladiators" but I think stick to the best players of your own country when competing on the world stage
There has to be some residency rule, but I agree it should be demanding. The reason I think that there has to be some flexibility are circumstances like Manu Tuilagi. You come to a country as a child / adolescent: You may identify more with your host country than your country of birth.
I don't mind as long as you 1st get citizenship for that country and are not the equivalent of a rugby mercenary, u can play for whomever. We can't have a situation like Quade Coopers whereby he only got Aus citizenship 2yrs back. International sport is about representing not only the nation you call home, but also the nation that calls/recognizes you as 1 of their own.
I think of Brad Barritt. As a Sharks fan I desperately wanted to see him in a Bok jersey, but timing was not right. Boks had so many options
I wouldn't be surprised to see Tom Willis get a look in
100% agree with you. Love that all the great South African rugby players that can’t fit into the Springbok squad can earn money playing internationally. Also hate that mature rugby nations pretend to be an international team when they have other nations in their team.
It does make for a more competitive world rugby circuit, so i am for it..
Youngsters ,in their formative years,moving to England (or any other country)with their family,should qualify because the move was not their choice.Seasoned players should represent their own country even if they play club rugby abroad.
Look how many Pacific Island players are in the Northern Hemishpere international teams now! Look at Scotland, full of SA players. This has been going on for ages. I hear many Europeans saying NZ and Aussie are pilfering players from Islands, show they dont actually realise most, if not all, were born in NZ or Aussie.
Also, for the foreign-born players it's hilarious how they claim we're stealing them when, in reality, they just move here because we have better education and more opportunities to play professional rugby than a cash-strapped series of islands.
The funniest part being they're proud their children got to play overseas, so clearly, an issue never existed.
I am a SA an agree with you on qualifying player to play for a country. But in the amateur area this was a defnite no no. But professional area chaned this. It is now a work like any other where people move around the world to apply their profesion. Most top wprld rugby unions have 1-50 players that can immediately qualify to play for a country. Each country will take 30 and depending on the style the coach wants to play is what players he chooses to fit his style. Thank you for your program.
Completely agree and I am split in the same way, Tyron Green is still excellent but I don’t think he’s rediscovered that immense form he had before that major injury seems slightly slower (still excellent might)
I don’t disagree in principle with project players if it’s on the basis of existing qualification through patents/grandparents etc but they are playing in another country. Cunningham-South in New Zealand for example is how do it properly
Well, how do you feel about an accountant from Pretoria moving to London? It is the same principle. It is a matter for the player to decide where they want to apply themselves.
It's a fair point. But that also does suggest there's no difference between playing for a club (a job) and representing your national team
@@EggchasersRugby in a professional game, there probably isn't. A player with a limited career span will have to make tough choices. Same for coaching. How many international teams have a homegrown coach? I want Felix Jones and Jacques Nienaber back for the Boks but at the end of the day it has nothing to do with me and everything with them - it is their lives.
In fact Felix Jones is not even South African but that kind of illustrates my point - he became "one of us"! Enjoy him at England, Tim - he is gold.
I think a tweak to the rules should be 'X number of years lived in the country before signing a contract with a rugby team/academy' i.e. if you moved as a child because your parents etc. moved there for their own reasons, you can play for that country as an adult.
Happy that the players have options. You can also argue that these players we developed by English clubs. Would they have had the same options in South Africa.
For England it feels weird that we have English players, e.g. Willis, playing in France we can not select yet there are in, in this instance SA that we can based on residency. I would prefer Willis to play for England as opposed to a residency qualified player.