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- Опубліковано 28 сер 2024
- "#131 - The Truth About Ecological Jiujitsu: Why It's Hyped Up but Falls Short"
Have you heard of ecological jiujitsu? It's been making waves lately, but does it really live up to the hype? In this episode of Beyond Jiu Jitsu, co-hosts Adam Childs and Kieren Lefevre take a deep dive into this teaching method and how it applies to jiujitsu. They discuss why it's gained popularity, but also why it ultimately falls short. With their signature banter and insightful analysis, they uncover the truth about ecological jiujitsu and its limitations in the world of martial arts.
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This is one of the most misinformed discussions I’ve ever heard.
If either of you would like to have a real discussion on what the ecological approach is, how it’s actually implemented, and why it’s a more effective teaching method for acquiring skill Id love to talk.
Hey Greg, we'd actually love to talk about the Ecological method. In our recent episode, we put the call out for anyone to come and discuss it on the show with us so we'd love to have you on for a discussion.
If you could please email directly at kieren@kierenlefevrebjj.com and we can organise a suitable time for you to come on the show.
@@gregsouders9648 Hell yes!!
Love to see it!
@@beyondjiujitsu 3 months later......
@@peekaboojujitsoo525sonny brown just release his podcast. Greg and Pritt are debate/explain about the method
Kit Dale is definitely trying to make money off of it. Greg Souders isn't. My old instructor Steve Hall once said that "Jiu-Jitsu isn't about the moves. It's about the moves in-between the moves". Steve was not an eco guy at all, but that statement hits on what eco helps build. Frank Mir says that in order to get an armbar, you need a base, a lever, and a fulcrum. Rather than spending a month teaching every possible armbar variation, I can design drills that guide the students towards base, lever, and fulcrum. They also get to find those things with certain resistance from the opponent. Not free rolling levels of resistance, but set parameters. Even my beginner level students find armbars everywhere because they DON'T drill 1000 different armbars on non-resisting opponents. Karate, hapkido, and krav maga suck because so much of what they do is unrealistic. How many times have you seen a krav maga student thrust a knife at his drill partner, then freeze and let his partner do all sorts of stupid moves. BJJ practitioners laugh at that and say things like "Ha! I wouldn't just stand there and let you hit me! I'd keep stabbing! This is totally unrealistic!". Turns out most BJJ schools do the same thing.
I think you'd have a great conversation with Greg Souders. He's a fascinating guy.
I think he is who they are talking about. He’s hit the rounds on podcasts and I think he has an issue where he speaks very much like he is a PHD student in this stuff. He also comes off as a absolutist in only using the ecological approach. It seems like it’s a marketing gimmick when he talks about it. But I think that constraints based learning has a lot of merit, especially for understanding positions.
@@Jepetto21 You have to be an absolutist with the ecological approach. It’s literally contradictory to what the alternative of information processing offers. One suggests you can learn by memorizing step by step processes and absorbing techniques and movement patterns. The other suggests that the necessary information to develop skill has to be gained by directly interacting with the environment, or a human body interacting with a human body if we’re speaking specific to a grappling context. And he probably comes off as a PHD student because he has a high level understanding of the subject matter and the science of the approach. And I don’t know how it can come off as a marketing gimmick when most people getting into jiu jitsu get off on the idea of memorizing 10,000 techniques and drilling constantly. Sounds like a terrible marketing approach if that’s what he’s going for.
This entire video is two guys who don't actually understand something trying to debunk that thing.
Facts bro, its always analogy this, analogy that. I hate Aussies
Welcome to the podcast bro. If this is your first time here then I hate to break it to you, but “not understanding” is kinda our thing 😅
@@adamchilds you refer to your podcast in the description as “insightful analysis”?
@@adamchildscope and cop out.
I can debunk it pretty easy
Ecological approach discussion starts at 20:00, switched off at 29:00 because we're into strawman arguments.
1. The games are not just positional sparring, there's a clear difference
2. The debate isn't ecological or traditional, it's live scenarios vs dead drilling.
3. There's a spectrum between ecological and traditional, the argument is more the % of time you spend on practicing fundamental skills against live resistance in varying situations vs how much time you spend learning optimised techniques for specific situations
Thank u
@pcprinciple3774
Where do you see the clear line between these games and positional sparring / task sparring?
Sometimes I can not see a clear cut there (even after Rob Grays Book). Maybe you could help me with it
@@highsoflyify Situational sparring might not have a clear goal/objective. Task sparring is of course similar but different. It just guides intention (usually a key feature or invariant that the coach wants to develop) and attention (Again, guiding the learners attention to where they might find solutions). The rest, as we understand, the body will figure out.
I enjoyed this podcast and both guys seem like solid dudes. That being said, in their effort to discredit the ecological approach, they just kept legitimizing it and not even recognizing the fact. It was painfully obvious when started in on the chess analogy and tried to say you couldn’t learn the game of chess by playing games. Later they talked about how complex it is and that there are so many variables, which is one of the main arguments supporting ecological learning. I really hope they reconsider their positions and make an effort to talk to informed coaches or even bring them on the podcast.
Funnily enough thats exactly how Josh Waitzkin learnt chess and Bjj by playing mini games.
The games come after. You have to know how the pieces move first and what are the most efficient openings. The mini games are great and super important but you need to have a fundamental understanding of the chess board. You failed to grasp the argument here that most jits schools employ some kind of ecological training(we call it specific sparring) any way. I start with the games so they understand the positions and the mechanics and problems, then show a little technique because the students keep trying to reinvent the wheel and its impossible to come up with efficient jiujitsu by ONLY playing the games.
My point is that you can learn a great deal about jiu jitsu and chess by playing the games. Does seeking out other information when you're not playing help speed up the learning or take it to new depths? No doubt about it in my opinion. The general chess analogy is probably overused, but I think it's just a way to say BJJ is complex compared to other martial arts, which are about as difficult as checkers in comparison. Using your line of thinking, I can make another inference that Greg Souders mentions frequently. He describes the goal of jiu jitsu to clear all the limbs to gain access to the core and pin the other person before isolating a limb and breaking it. Not so different from clearing other pieces off the board to isolate and break the king.@@kodiakcombatcollective
I assume you're talking about Greg Souders? He does teach teqhniques (finishing techniques in particular), as there are few variabilities with them. You also kept mentioning how he's marketing or selling sometihng... what is he selling? Is it an instructional?
Just like bjj and wrestling better than just one of either for nogi, I think it’s clear that using many of EJJ’s games for skill development PLUS traditional drilling when first learning a technique is OBVIOUSLY the best.
Great topic and I look forward to Greg talk.
20 minutes of filler time before getting to the subject of the video. I suggest adding that to the description so people don't waste time.
99% of our podcast is filler time 😅
This discussion provides value in that it covers basically every misconception, fallacy, and talking point about why the ecological approach is bad all in one convenient place. You're willfully and admittedly ignorant, you say that people who practice it have read all of the books and studies, but that's not like secret forbidden knowledge, anyone can read that material, including you. So why not go ahead and read some material on it and find out what it actually is instead of inventing a strawman of what you think it is and then bashing that? If after actually learning about it you still don't want to do it, that's fine, but at least you will know.
O really came for a debunk vídeo but it seems you guys didnt really understand in the first place… odd
I'm glad you made this podcast. I just heard about this concept last week and i'm i heard the contra points before i got too deep into this trend.
To be honest i didn't proccesed half of the information about EJJ. I'm usually listening podcasts during worktime, and the guy is talking like this: the preconditioned behaving antagonist.
Instead of saying: a fucking brand new white belt.
These guys have some good points but are missing the CLA (Constraint Lead Approach) .
I've listened to proponents of the ecological only model. Alot of jargon, complicated ways to express simple ideas, and the wise things they say are just things I heard from Ryan Hall DVD's and Danaher instructionals over the last 20 years put into a pop-neuroscience framework.
Is the Ecological model better than 90% of the shit teaching in our sport from instructors who are bad at coaching and do the bare minimum? Absolutely.
Is it new? No.
Is it a part of the classes of the worlds best instructors? Yes.
Does that mean drilling and detailed lessons are ineffective? No.
It's hard to pinpoint exactly what these Ecological approach guys are saying. I listened to an hour of jargon to express 4 simple ideas i've heard a thousand times before.
So for the angry guy about to comment, a few questions.
Is there a place for long, detailed, lessons in your approach?
Is there a place for non-live drilling in your approach?
Do you ever just watch tape/instructionals and take notes?
If no, why do the best coaches in our sport do those things?
If yes, why is your approach any different and not simply a matter of ratio?
If a coach gave a lesson for an hour, drilling 5 techniques from the mount, then put their student in 3x8 minute situationals from mount. Then watches his students and designs the next class to work on inefficiencies in what he observed. Is there something wrong/inefficient about that?
I could not agree more with this comment. Very thought out and I couldn't have put it better myself.
@vystopian8492 Would you mind answering the other questions I posed in my response?
@vystopian8492 Should be easy for you, they are simple questions and you sound so confident, you must have a good grasp on the Ecological approach.
@vystopian8492 😘
@@KierenLefevre
Villain Cast with Chris Paines: ua-cam.com/video/tDGfTiYU4y0/v-deo.htmlsi=NW9nGuRtiBLFr3Pt
The above podcast with Greg Souders was actually quite good. Reading all of the "Drilling is a waste of time" clickbait captions, Unnecessarily complex language from Souders on other podcasts, and getting condescended to by guys in the comment section who sound like bonefied cult members definitely gave me a false impression of the guy.
He answered alot of the questions I had in this interview and dispelled alot of the crap his worshippers are saying in the comments. (I can't blame him for the open air sewer that is the average youtube comment section). Completely changed my view on him. I think he is very smart and I'll probably read some of the books he recommended. Made me think and re-examine my class structure a bit.
I think there are some valid and unique insights. I can see why people wanted him on the podcast, I think there is a massive communication issue. If you get him on, i'd expect it to be a good conversation.
I laughed a little reading the foundational papers using terms such as dynamical systems and attractors, as if those mean anything to the target audience of sports "scientists." A lot of fancy words and very little empirical anything.
I'm all for science -- the proof is in the pudding, so if this is great we'll see many champions emerge. The fact that Sauders tries so hard to sell it makes it suspicious. If I had found a revolutionary method I would produce some world champions before I start preaching
Just because a sports science reviewer accepted a paper doesn't necessarily make it useful/true.
Extraotdinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Until proven otherwise, I think I'll continue cheating standing on the shoulders of giants.
Why not invite Greg Souders to the conversation? Looks like click bait title.
I feel like people throw around the word clickbait whenever they disagree with the content
it's goofy marketing. partial training becomes "games". we replace the old techniques with new partial techniques then combine them later. Danaher showed a bunch of guys that rarified vocabulary, self-important tone, and the suggestion of secret knowledge sells. And all of them rip off Saulo Ribeiro for some reason, JD included.
I like to learn Hawaiian style . We roll then we say eh try this , then we do it and it works or doesn’t . Then we just roll roll and roll more
Sheeeeesh. This is only a few months old and is not aging well at all. When are you guys going to chat with Greg and Scott? Maybe read a little bit before the chat. It's ok though. We don't know what we don't know.
ChatGPT is my coach
The ecological approach, so complicated you need to read and understand academic literature , yet so simple that everyone training that way already is doing it without knowing, and if you dont like it you are arguing with science😂😂😂! Just so eveyone knows Sounders is just repackeging LLOYD IRVIN methodology and cult like marketing but putting academic jargon to self substantiate it. Which isnt suprising since he learned from the cult master himseLF Lloyd Irvin.
Wow… sorry fellas, you’ve missed the mark here.
I’ve been around Jiu Jitsu in Australia almost from the beginning. There are a series of good reasons I have moved away from the traditional method of coaching and implementing Ecological Dynamics via the Constraints Led Approach.
Happy to discuss if you’re willing to entertain the possibility that the standard approach is not only not optimal but also not the only way to do things.
This didn't age well
Crazy misrepresentation of the ecological approach. Woah.
Can't wait for the Souders rebuttal/debate episode
you guys need to read the books on the subject before discussing it. clearly misinformed
I am currently reading Robert Gray's second book.
@@KierenLefevre so you didn't finish it yet when this was recorded?
Ecology method seems like a marketing ploy.. the dude uses too much intellectual language . Keep it simple
It's just Lloyd Irvin system using academic jargon and the same cult like marketing / coaching
I love to hear valid criticisms of the ecological approach. But these seemed pretty uniformed.
What I do agree with, is that most gyms employ ecological elements and conceptual/principle frameworks to their practice. That's not in dispute from the Eco D advocates. Rather they advocate for optimizing the learning experience by parsing out what is actually driving action/transferring to skill attunement, and throwing out the stuff that is less effective or ineffective (Think shrimping in lines, isolated drilling and unresisted rote repetition). The approach will of course seem ineffective if one doesn't have more than a superficial understanding of what it is.
The rest of the criticisms would be valid if the approach itself didn't account for them or address them. It does by using constraints, scaling to afford and valid corrective feedback (Among other concepts)
The theory of direct perception (ecological psychology) and information-movement coupling (Self-Organization) is what underpins the whole approach. Eco D advocates see little sense in robbing context from the training environment. The majority of the sport has been delivered from an information processing (indirect perception) model. They are incompatible and contradictory. Valid debate on the nature of perception is fair. It's a valid debate in the academic community.
Every single 'technique' in the sport emerged ecologically and more will continue to emerge. Suggesting that learners must find them all organically without the guidance of peers or a coach is a misrepresentation.
Lastly, injuries and blown acl's in practice are primarily a culture and scaling issue, not due to either approach in itself.
Would love to hear some better informed pushback. Perhaps another episode after a bit more reading?
Greg Sounders offered in another comment to come on the show, so we're happily taking him up on it.
@@KierenLefevre I'll look forward to listening. I've interviewed Greg several times. He has his ducks in a row!
@@mcnoodles76 are these interviews recorded?
@@KierenLefevre yes they are... On the Primal MMA coaching Podcast.
Ecological jiu-jitsu is bullshido glad you see through the nonsense.
Ecological training > specific training
Try interviewing someone who actually understands the ecological approach 👍
I've been speaking privately with Greg Souders on this topic and am currently getting up to speed with the current literature.
On ya bike
Thats cool 👍
But it seems like this is something you have done after #131 🤷
@@usbsol no shit
Strawman from start to finish, egregious strawman
I’ve been looking into this learning approach myself and I don’t understand how it’s different from positional sparring so it would be really helpful to point out which parts were strawmen arguments
The dorks make fun of the change in language Souders uses and don't know that there's an entire literature on external focus of attention behind it, ironclad, that isn't even originally from the ecological camp.
How are you well-read and making it work for you but also it's ridiculous and you don't know anything?
lol @ mythical learning styles floated
Massive well-poisoning.
I have no idea what you are trying to say in this comment Josh
@@beyondjiujitsu the first thing I said was that you criticized the language change Souders and eco people use but didn't know the reason why (it's not for marketing, it's for student performance).
The second is me asking how in the world we ecological people can be well-read and make the thing work -- but it also be stupid and we don't know things.
Something I didn't say is that direct instruction is not outside of the ecological approach, it's just the primary mode of guidance. Dr. Gray has addressed this before.
it's just not the primary mode of guidance*
@joshpck Josh take your medication
This sounds like a conversation between 2 guys who have absolutely No Clue what they are talking about.. I love when he says “He has a PhD in whatever, whatever.” The exact reason that ecological training works is that you don’t have to remember so many steps.
If you don’t know how it works and half of what you are saying is I’m not sure; then maybe you should inform yourself more before making statements that make you look like a Fool to Anyone with an IQ over 100!
Actually John Danaher does almost exclusive Ecological Training, and both Greg Souders and John Danaher teach the names of the moves… They just do live resistance for all “Drilling” which is then a game.. Get Greg Souders on your podcast and bring the same argument…
Funny, because every time i've trained with John it has been a solid hour of regular ass drilling and 3 rounds of situational sparring. That the Ecological method?
Can't believe how fucking wrong this is hahahaha
Yea your straight up wrong.
This was hard to listen to. The amount of time and attention that Greg Souders has put into implementing the ecological approach to learning is truly disrespected by this convo.
You guys are gatekeeping a cult lol Greg just using academic jargon to substantiate Lloyd irvin cult tactics 🤣 perhaps you guys are too young to remember you'll see
Adam is 100% better than Joe hogan because at least Adam competed in grappling tournaments. Adam is a real black belt Joe never competed in BJJ 👎🏻
Can you talk about how useless bjj is in a street fight
Somebody jumps on you from behind and try to choke you. Wich martial art or combat system will help you out?
Also i can sweep an untrained stronger and bigger person and and pass their leg in 5 seconds. And soccer kick his head or get the fuck out before he stands up.