I have run into this problem quite a bit in SCA rapier fencing where it is on the honor system as to scoring (where you quickly find out people have no honor). Their are a few workarounds such as thrust and stay in and use your forte to parry any incoming blows. If you keep advancing SLOWLY with the point in the other person within about one second or so it becomes painfully obvious that you have in fact landed. The other less polite way is to just rail them so that they flinch back when struck if they are not accepting the thrust when landed politely. I never found this to be objectionable because they are either A. not feeling it so you need to hit harder or B. are an honorless schmuck and deserve a little pain to get the "point" of sportsmanship across.
Many soft rubbers have an extremely high friction coefficient, especially in contact with fabrics, which would produce a 'bite'. It would require maintenance, but it would simply be a matter of dipping existing safety tips in a liquid compound, and letting it cure.
Excellent point! A point d'arrêt would solve this problem but might wreak havoc on jackets. Perhaps a bit of velcro(hook side), or rough sand paper, glued to the tip could serve the same purpose. Of course one could always go with with the full velcro jacket & tip. This would have the added advantage of allowing the use of Nerf missile weapons in sparring.
Not that I've been involved with anything like HEMA, at all; so these are just my observations as a casual observer. But I've always wondered why nothing has ever been implemented that has a similar effect to paintball for Firefights; where a hit leaves a visible mark on the other person. Chalking the blade and point would work nicely, and would show you, not only that the blade hit, but also where it hit, and potentially how hard. What (if any) are the reasons that nothing like this has ever happened?
The most immediate issue I can see is that the marks would be difficult to get off the jackets. On top of that, the marks would still remain regardless of whether or not the strike wasn't actually any good.
In sabre they used it before electrifying them. Issues are 1 the thrusts would leave a small mark 2 everyone should wear white like in modern fencing 3 the mark would not be really correlated with it being from a good hit, which is one of the main judging issues.
Ok, so to put it short, below people talked about: Fresh paint on the blades. Patterned rubber tips for adherence Sandpaper-like tips Ways of sticking the point on the sparring garment (velcro, hockey tape...) The spiky tip Matt mentioned (though it is pretty clear that it's not practical or safe) More suggestions...
I think you misunderstand matt s suggestion. It was still a round tip like he showed, but with a short spike. 1 mm would be enough. So not to much possibility for hurting somebody. Although if it hits skin it could make damage, so rubber tip seems smarter :)
@@myowndata Yeah.... real skis are dangerous too, you may break a leg. So why nsot replace them with Wii skiing? Crossing a street is dangerous too, also climbing trees. Sh*t! You've just made me realize life's dangerous and you'll probably end up dead. If you are so worried about a skin scratch just don't fight in the nude.... and never, ever go near pins and needles, they're dangerous.
I must say that I think another part of the problem is also that humans more naturally hit than poke. So with the rules or equipment we need to make sure that thrusts are both noticed, properly recorded and adequately rewarded.
You nailed it by saying that participation in the tournaments is important. If judges are participating and have many hours of experience in tournaments their visual sensitivity is more acute to the lines being played. So I believe it's the responsiblity of the people judging (along with the penetration of the thrust in that round) need to look at the lines more in depth and what REALLY would be the result as you mention in the video, thank you.
a deep thrust wound may seem invisible and not felt particularly, but a minute latter your enemy may apparently collapse in mid flow. Simply fall down after a slight delay realising he's as good as dead. It can seem quite baffling ...'I never hit him!'
I personally started off as a sport fencer before I discovered real HEMA, so I generally throw a lot more thrusts--and often the judges don't notice for the reasons discussed, and it gets frustrating when the blade slides off and doesn't get noticed, and I find it occasionally makes me telegraph more when I'm thrusting, with the hopes that a judge will take note of it. I do hope we can find a way to make thrusts a bit more viable in competition
Thanks for this video. Always such a pleasure to watch :) Allow me to approximate "point d'arrêt" from my native French. In both words, the 't' sound will be silent. Point [poo-waeh] (try to give it a bit of "ungh" at the end like someone on the receiving end of a thrust, say. Or even like the sound "boing", yes I'm aware how silly that sounds) d'arrêt [da-reh] Also, the sound of 'ê' here would be like the 'e' in 'egg'
SCA Rapier uses rubber blunts or "Bird Blunts" (as they are called in archery), with a small metal washer inserted so that it rests on the tip, perpendicular to the blade (to keep the metal blade from pushing through the softer rubber over time). The trick for HEMA use would probably be making sure they are light enough that they don't upset the balance of the sword. With some of the heaver side and arming swords I doubt it would be noticeable. Thanks for the videos!
Sport fencing faced this very same problem a long time ago. The point d'Arrêt was a mecanism for early sport fencing but it was not good enough. Also it is not useful for judging cutting strokes (in sabre). The fencing judges in early sport fencing were experts (in important competitions at least), and yet they made many mistakes or were biased. That is why sport fencing introduced the electrical system that most HEMA practicioners seem to hate. In practical terms it would be perfectly feasible and very easy to incorporate electrical equipment to HEMA competitions, but I know many people would be against it for being non-historical (and yet they already use lots of non-historical gear). Apart from that, no, there is no effective human solution for the issue mentioned in the video. Many fencing actions are just too fast and/or subtle to be properly appreciated by the human eye, even for an expert. That is a fact.
In a real fight a cut with almost no force or badly executed would not even penetrate clothes, with electricity it would count. It's not about being non-historical but about being REAL. There is no PERFECT solution, but there are BETTER solutions. That is a fact.
Good to hear that thrusts and cuts should be fairly balanced. In my club I've noticed that I favor thrusts a lot more than others, and I wasn't sure if this was just me doing it wrong. Having said that, I've found thrusts very effective at quickly getting past people's guard. It might just be that they aren't expecting it as much though.
Hello, I come from an Olympic fencing background of Foil and Epee. I've only just discovered HEMA and was watching a video on a sabre fighting in a tournament called Swordfish, and I kept wondering why no one was thrusting. You're absolutely right I think judges of the sport should be trained better to identify a successful lunge/thrust. Also having video review of the action could help. Its what they do in Olympic fencing tournaments. As often times it can be too fast to follow even with a blinking light that indicates a touch. As far as equipment, I think the only way for Technology to aid HEMA is to develop a blade with a radio transmitter attached to it, so it can signal a successful thrust.
I've been put on my arse by a SCA pike thrust to the face, and I've stopped a guy's advance when I thrust him in the thigh. However I have also had people not take thrusts because they didn't "pop" even if said thrust from me arrested my forward momentum and pushed me back.
Mesh/deeply textured surfaces on top of armor might do well to "catch" thrusts. Also, "Asociacion de esgrima antigua sala el Batallador" on facebook adds another good point to this video - with flexible training swords, cuts hurt more than thrusts, so fighters who favor cuts have the intimidation factor. The answer would be to use stiffer blades. (paraphrased) Returning to my first idea, textured surfaces would do well with both types of swords.
Our club has had a similar problem using the rawlings synthetics that we've mostly remedied with hockey tape on the tip of the blade. it sticks really well to most of the equipment
I think one of the most viable ways to determine hits with thrusts would be to use some sort of rubber tip, or a textured tip of some sort that grips well as discussed below. Another possibility is dedicating one judge just to thrusts or to simply train the judges to notice thrusts more. Having not judged a competition before, I can't say whether this would be effective or not, but I think it's good in theory.
One of the best things would be to use a Epee Hitmate. It is wireless and If you attached a epee tip or just taped an epee lade to the side of the sword on contact you would know if you had contact. It's really hard to judge when contact is made in epee, that is why this device is so good when paired with epee tip.
It would seem a plunger type tip like modern electric fencing gear has would solve most of this issue. You don't need a full on light system, just a buzzer box like used for testing points. That way you get the noise when a point has landed with enough force, just like cuts.
Rather than spiky bits, a tacky rubber edge would produce the same effect with less injury potential. An alternative might be some sort of chalked cloth that would produce a colored mark where the tip connects.
I've just watched this video and cannot disagree. Since we keep experimenting with technical solutions in my HEMA club, here are the first ideas that come to my mind as far as equipment is concerned : - Some weapons are simply too stiff. One have good federschwerts that bend nicely on thrusts without getting all wobbly in binds, like the Red Dragon Club you recently reviewed, so a good feder makes already quite a difference. Besides, the equivalent of the feder hasn't been designed yet for other weapons like arming swords, sabers... - The tip makes a large difference, as you pointed out. I'm not sure point d'arrêt would be allowed as it might be a bit dangerous, but other tips are possible. For rapiers for example, I prefer to have a rubber blunt affixed to the blade rather than a flat-tipped blade. First (for style), it can be removed to sheath the weapon. Second (for safety), it is usually larger and absorbs a bit of the impact, so it hurts the opponent less. And third (for judging), it sticks more to the fabric and therefore the blade bends more. For rolled tips like the feder ones, I think about gluing grip tape (skateboard style, or better if something better is available) to the tip. I will try to experiment on that in my club and give a feedback asap !
The problem is that rigid hand protection is necessary with longsword, and even then you still need some padding underneath. Even with that we're still having problems with broken thumbs. Although, some of this issue is because people are favouring percussive hits over drawing or pushing cuts.
Maybe a solution would be to use a special armor that would catch all kinds of thrust, like a mesh or mail. Connect that to the detector like in sport fencing - resistive detector should catch both good thrusts and proper cuts.It will catch bad or sliding ones too as intermittent contact. Combine with pressure sensors (more sophisticated than buttons), put them in the armor to detect force.
It surprises me greatly to learn that tournaments produce a great deal of cutting. Posta Longa and half-swording thrusts was always my favorite from the Italian manuscripts of Fiore Dei Libri. Now that I think about it, all the videos I watch involving any sparring or tournament does involve cutting... unless it is a European (Western) crossover fight with an Eastern one (typically of Japanese origin) in which the Western fighter seems to instinctively know or learn that thrusting is the way to go and usually wins in this manner.
My feder's rolled tip is a bit too narrow, so I put a blunt over it (.44 shell casing). If you cover the blunt in friction tape, it sticks pretty well in the thrust.
How about piezoelectic sensors in the clothing? They're the type of sensor used in electronic drum kits, they pick up vibrations in the surface they're connected to and transmit them as electric signals. They would transmit both the location and intensity of a hit, and they're pretty cheap and very durable.
The solution you're describing sounds an awful lot like an industrial grade hook-and-loop fastener (Also known as Velcro). There's some pretty hardcore varieties on the market (including a few styles that are made out of steel), so maybe that's something worth experimenting with?
In FIE fencing this becomes such a huge problem when sparring. Maybe a wireless electrical scoring system just for the tip? Spiky bits at the point would work too, but I'd imagine that could become a safety concern.
In the SCA (rapier), since almost all our weapons have rubber tips, they tend to stick better on the mask or clothes. We also are wearing less protection, so its easier to feel the thrust land on you.
Wow, thrusts aren't evaluated enough? If I had to fight, for real, with a sword, against an enemy, that's all what I would do ! Fake a cut or an attack then stab stab stab stab stab, then stab some more! THE STAB: quick to do, easy to recover, very hard to predict where it lands. Hell, most medieval swords were designed as stabbing weapons, would be a shame not to take an advantage of what the weapon was intended for.
I have this idea that it's possible to make a tatami robot opponent. Particularly for the movie industry, a non-human sparring partner which is an animated humanoid punch bag which can withstand damage and permit full-force engagement s a very cool idea. Using some sort of paint on the sword or a video tracker would make a lot of sense. Yes, a small metal thistle on the end of the sword would make a lot of sense.
I think this may be, in part, an armour/glove issue, like what you were noticing about the overuse of posta breve. I suspect that with different, less encumberant armour (a light gambeson, perhaps? Or something to take the sting of strikes without otherwise hampering movement too much) and more flexible gloves (I find this whole hockey glove business absurd), thrusts may come out more.
Now, I haven't seen every single one, but in a good number of longsword tournament vids, the thrust seems pretty popular. The most visible one appears to be the longsword equivalent of "throw point", with one hand released from the sword for maximum range. But again, I haven't seen them all, and I've not done a scientific, controlled count of each point scored in each one I have seen.
What you really need is a near instantaneous video processing suite. This would be a program which takes in data on edge alignment, weapon speed and point of impact and computes the likely bleeding and damage that would be caused to the target. That or a suit and weapon that read the angle, force and location of impact. With either you could have a lovely print out of all the wounds you would have sustained if the fight were real.
I've noticed the same problem in my own HEMA group; thrusts are more or less ignored because they're so easily missed. Good to know it's not just my group trying to deal with that issue.
I think there is a lot of value in using foam covered practice swords with a large stabbing footprint. For power and pain incentive I usually practice with these with helmet and hand protection only. I use ultralight bamboo or thin aluminum reinforced with tape and cover it with a foam rubber sheeth. This means that the foam makes stabs bite and stick transferring force into the partner and slashes can be intensely strong as well as very respected. The pain is excruciating without any significant injury and the swords will snap before bones will. I've been using these for years as a fun passed time and sometimes to settle arguments about who is more skilled and with exception of an eye injury I received for being a jackass by not wearing a helmet no one has ever been injured. Screening pain but it's like a belly flop. The only things that don't get well trained are edge alignment and the understanding of metallic slip. For which I practice with metal blades in a more controlled way. I'm suggesting it as a supplement as I think the pain factor is really important to the fear involved in conflict and because the blade cores are breakable going full force is not a problem.
Modern electric systems used in fencing are exactly the thing that makes sport fencing a sport. HEMA is a martial art, it's about being unplugged not plugged in.
miroslav m Because sports don't have judges, or because electronics don't belong in anything martial? Maybe electronics don't belong in art? I really can't follow your reasoning. And was fencing not a sport before the electronic systems?
It doesn’t belong in this martial art, it’s just the way it is and it’s good that it is so. Again you are making parallels with sports, modern sport fencing always was, as the name implies, a sport so the introduction of electronic system is justified if it’s necessary. In sport fencing the primary goal is to hit first no mater what in martial arts (at least the western ones) the point is to hit but not get hit this fundamental difference means that in sport fencing you get the mentality that allows for “attacking” without thinking of the consequences, as long as you hit first it doesn’t mater that you get hit afterwards. So the whole thing becomes essentially a suicide game from a real life perspective, the judge can no longer see what is going on because it gets so fast since the fencers are reacting on instinct, there in no thinking since there is no time to think. In a real fight you can’t afford not to think since life is only one, if you lose it that's it, that is way real sword fighting is much slower then sport fencing. An electric detection system in actual martial arts is as necessary as wings are on a chicken, you can quote me on that one.
miroslav m Saying something is true because that's just the way it is isn't a valid argument, it's about as relevant as that gibberish you spouted about not being plugged in. As for it not being necessary there is about seven minutes of video that makes a compelling argument to the contrary. Be honest, you're really just a bit of a Luddite aren't you? HEMA isn't about learning and understanding history to you, it's about trying to live in the past.
miroslav m "An electric detection system in actual martial arts is as necessary as wings are on a chicken, you can quote me on that one." Alright, I'm quoting you. I take it you've never owned a chicken? I grew up on a farm and chickens do use their wings. Chickens prefer not to roost on the ground because of predators. Look inside any chicken coop. There aren't exactly any staircases. That being said, humans are terrible at noticing details. We only see what we're focused on. Like the guy in the video said, you might not notice yourself if you've been hit with a thrust. Haven't you ever accidentally cut yourself and not notice before? I certainly have. I knew a guy who got shot just below his shoulder with a .223 while hunting and he didn't know right away. His right arm just went limp and he stuck his hand inside his parka and when he pulled it out it was covered in blood. To say there is no use for a machine (that you're typing on) that can perform billions of calculations per second is narrow minded. It's all in how you use it.
What about some rubbery silicone based stuff at the tip? something to add more grip at the moment the thrust lands, and could easily be fixed up when the rubber starts to tear and wear.
Do you know those squeeky things out of rubber that when you press make a noise? It will be good and probably funny too to have a small version of them on the tip of swords for thrusts and when they land they make the squeeky noise XD.
What about a felt tip and some sort of chalk box out side the ring were one could redip the tip after a score. A nice white chalk would leave a nice mark.
I would say to take extremely coarse sandpaper and electrical tape a piece of it tightly to the tip of the sword, that way it will bite into the fabric without introducing a sharp point
what if you take a sort of chalk, something like the ones made for pool - and you cover the edge with some tape before a fight and rub it on the tip nicely (b;owing on it a bit so it wouldn't splash in contact with the mask maybe) - and then you can just see the mark it leaves on the fabric?
The best solution is just covering the blade with special dye that you can't throw so when there's a thrust it will dye. Another solution is connect the point of the sword to electricity source in order to electrify the opponent when he gets a thrust (also there would be a button so it has to be a little bit powerful, like a real thrust)
Core of thrusting strikes problems in HEMA is in judgement system. Because of nature of thrusting strikes in most cases only 1 judge will see how did thrust landed to its target (if you're very lucky - two). But if only one judge will see that thrust, it won't be counted. And that's main problem. HEMA needs to start giving priority to judges who were on the side of strike and surely saw it perfectly, or otherwise it will continue making great impact on fighting styles of fighters and results of tournaments. Just watched recordings of swordfish-2015 few days ago and i saw many (like MANY) fighters who lost their matches because only one judge saw their thrusts (or cuts landed to mid-section from one of the sides), and i saw number of fighters who are not taking guards after successfull thrust and reseiving afterblows because it's the only way to make sure that judges will count their hit. Yes, of course, you could try to solve that somehow by amunition upgrading, but it's much harder and brings number of other problems.
I wonder if they could have a rule where only one judge needs to see a thrust. Then he could give a different sign to indicate he saw a thrust and that he is boss and it's gonna count. Whereas cuts could continue to require 2 judges.
+scholagladiatoria Since this video is 2.5 years old now, I wonder if you've noticed this changing in HEMA at all since you made the video? I'm a Fiore guy like you, but we've noticed that the German style clubs in the area around where we live (who we are fortunate to fight with somewhat regularly) used to be very cut focused but have recently shifted to doing a lot more thrusting. (That said, we ourselves may tend towards using colpi still...)
the popular misconception that German style was mainly about cutting came from German sport, not actual German fighting. In the German sport thrusts were banned to make it safer because they were so effective at killing or causing injury. Earlier German manuscripts (duelling, not sport) show a wide variety of cuts.
In my group we put rubber arrow blunts on the tips of our steel swords, and those stick on thrusts rather well. Perhaps we can make efforts to make that a more common practice?
How about sand paper? Stick sand paper on and around the tip that way it will bite and be noticed, wont harm the sparing partner (too much) and wont effect the overall performance of the weapon
perhaps HEMA fencing jackets could adopt an outer velcro-like material in combination with a point d`arret to make the blade stick, and maybe said coating could be removeable. It would save the jacket from getting too many loose threads, and make the point bite enough to stay stuck. But thats just a theory
It wouldn't work because HEMA trains for the after blows. After you thrust, you immediately retreat, guard, knock the other guys' sword off. No you can't have the sword sticking somewhere.
would it be possible to put a small bit of chalk into the tip, that would visibly mark the often dark fencing jackets? Non abrasive, easily wiped of but visible when you need it.
How about electronic scoring? I know, I know that is ruined the olympic fencing, but maybe with a responsible, HEMA-oriented state of mind, it might be modified to be used in a positive manner to determine a viable thrust? Honestly I believe what went wrong with Olympic fencing have more to do with people seeing it as a competitive sport rand not a martial art and using electronic sport thusly, rather than the electronic scoring itself.
There are similar issues with thrusts in SCA combat. There are additional issues, however. First, thrusts tend to slide off of armor especially well. Second, light thrusts to the face are easy to deliver and difficult to block and are seen as "cheap shots" by many combatants.
Just a thought... a relatively "light thrust" to the face is going to be pretty damaging on an unarmored opponenet. Whether it be the eyes or any part of the face. Its not going to be something you just walk away from afterwards. It definitely doesn't make for a fun sport but it depends on what you're really trying to recreate through the competitions.
That’s because SCA has nothing to do with actual combat techniques and real weapons, so talking about anything real in that context is pointless. No kind of hit to the head is easy since the head is the easiest to defend, if some one got to close and he is able to hit you in the head its not because light trust are too fast but because you made a mistake of allowing him to get that close, which is probably due to bad footwork.
Would of been nice if you would of had a video of a HEMA match and show some thrust to maybe get some visual context. I mean it is the same in iaido when you make a thrust to the neck and it hits, that strike would be hard for the judges to call a point for it. Which to me is amusing because even a good jab from any point on an object is lethal. Chopstick anyone, or a pen and pencil?
Thrusting is not easy to block or dodge. It is definitely underused in HEMA sparring matches. In a real fight, thrust counters are the way to go. Imagine fighting against an opponent that focuses on only thrusts and counter attacks. It's not easy to beat a defensive thruster.
wanting to get into longsword and that is one of the things I noticed as well, also noticed that the intensity is not there. ie.. strike, parry, point, start over. kind of lame. I think 1 or 2 min rounds, no holds barred, 5 or more cameras to record fight, judge winner after fight. Put a tip on the sword! the kind you talk about in the video or something like it, even a paint marker! it's a badass sport but in order for it to become super popular it needs some flash and polish.
+Eli Hood The problem with not stopping and starting over is that many hits in an unarmored swordfight would end the fight if real sword was used. If you don't stop the fight techniques that doesn't use the sword would be very good or has to be against the rules, such as throws and domination on the ground. For example, let's say that I'm able tog get a clear and strong cut to your head and you use the time it takes me to do that cut to close distance and throw me to the ground. If you then control me with say an armbar. How would you score that? If I tap out does that mean that you win the round? Or even more so, what if you dominate me on the ground and still have your sword and hit me 30 times while you're on top? With a real sword my cut to your head would probably stop you from throwing me down in the first place. While it might be fun to watch and would be very intense, a ruleset like that would have to ignore that swords are sharp weapons that can end a fight very fast. I'm not saying that the different rulesets of today are perfect and there is a need for improvement, but I don't think this is the answer.
What you say is true and possibly I shouldn't drink after training/practice. I don't have the answers, it just looks like some of the fights are half speed, kind of boring to watch, you have to admit you don't get sponsors or cool gear by being boring.
+Eli Hood Don't say that, some of my best ideas has come to me while I've been drunk, it's just that I don't remember why they were that good the day after. =) And I agree that some fights are kind of boring, but the ting is that I've seen some of the worse and some of the best fights in the same tournament. So I think it might have more to do with the fencers than the rules. Today HEMA is so small that in most tournaments you see both internationally good fencers and some fencers that are mediocre even in their own club. It's just natural that the person who enter his/her first tournament will be much slower. With that said, there is ofc also a possibility that it is the rules that promote half speed fencing. But as the fast fencers tends to win I think that's a good sign. But I totally agree with you that for HEMA to be entertaining to watch for people outside of our own small group, both rules, fencers and tournament administration have to improve.
+gurkfisk89 , so you sound like you know what's happening in the HEMA or longsword fighting community. I've been looking for a decent website to help w training/stay up to date on events. found a few but there are also sites that want your money. which is fine if it's gonna actually pay off. I guess I'm just undecided and looking for an opinion. There is a fencing school that has longsword classes once a week and I may go to a few but, it's at least 40 miles one way.
I've been getting more and more into rapiers, and since rapiers are a mostly thrusting weapon, I'm guessing this is a big problem there. Something to keep in mind, I guess.
That is exactly what he want to avoid doing at all costs in HEMA. The day we do that, we will degrade the entire skill to a level of a modern sport/recreation thing and it will lose all of its martial arts context. It’s the same thing that happens in every so called martial art/combat sport today, in order something to become a sport it can’t be a martial art at the same time.
miroslav m it's already a sport, what you mean is that you don't want it to "have rules". and it's not far fetched for an electrical on a conductive surface and have that be the armor. it's what they do in sport fencing, to know when a hit has landed. okay, so don't do anything about it, so that people in HEMA will grow to underappreciate thrusts, and they go only for very visible, very loud cuts that they know will be noticed, and eventually it doesn't resemble the martial art anymore
I thing you missed my point I’ll try to explain a little better. Sword fighting whether you want to call it HEMA now a days or something ease is not a sport and it’s not meant to be a sport. As far as the rules goes, I am all for rules but NOT SPORT RULES since those are completely out of all context for a martial art. I am for rules that will make sure that the fighters are going to do techniques and have a mentality that they would have in a real fight where its life or death and not a fight for points. Fact is that as soon as you turn something in to a fight for points you are going to make some unwanted scarifies and allow some necessary evils and that is a problem that we now see emerging in HEMA tournaments, people doing techniques that work only in a tournament but not real life (they are meant to win points) or fighting in a way we know they shouldn’t in a real fight. After all there are no pints in real life, life is only one, what happens in that first clash is it. As far as underappreciateing thrusts, that is pretty much impossible if you know what are you doing and if you where trained properly, that is as simple as I can make it. What you are describing is that we do the same thing that you see in movies, where we use raw power and long cut and no fines, it’s just not like that. Another problem is that the tournaments have no rules regarding the skill level of people involved so you have people that trained for 5+ years and know what it is and what it isn’t and people that trained for one or maybe two years than don’t know shit about anything and there for cant judge the situation correctly. As I mention it above in order for the fighters to have the necessary mentality/behavior and understanding they need to know what they are doing and that doesn’t happened after meny years, its just that complex. If people know what they are doing we don’t really need judges.
miroslav m I'm sorry I must disagree. Using technology to enhance the realism is pretty much a necessity as long as we endeavor not to injure each other. It should actually be pretty simple to add an accelerometer to a sword hilt to give an accurate measurement of the force, and hence an estimation of the the severity of a thrust. Combined with a touch sensor either through a modern fencing style system, or otherwise, and you'd have a fairly accurate measurement of the strikes that do occur. And whether that measurement is used for points in a 'sport', or simply used as data in a historical re-enactment in order to learn what does and does not work, more accurate data is always going to lead to a better result.
miroslav m are you in favor of _any_ sort of competition with rules in martial arts? I know that some sacrifices would have to be made, but aren't competitions necessary in order to keep a martial art's practicality alive? sure, there might be some bad techniques that might be learned in a tournament, but there would also be a refinement of techniques, and losing techniques which wouldn't work in a real life situation (which the competition intends to simulate). "Another problem is that the tournaments have no rules regarding the skill level of people involved so you have people that trained for 5+ years and know what it is and what it isn’t and people that trained for one or maybe two years than don’t know shit about anything and there for cant judge the situation correctly." So you're in favor of making a standardized ranking system of skill? Isn't that the "sportification" you railed against in a martial arts?
I kind of agree with this. In SCA, trust are almsot USELESS. Unless you put the weigth of your whole body in to it, or manage to push away your opponent, trust doesn't couth.
Easily fixed. Use less far protection and use only Albions. A good thrust from an Albion ought to stop a person in their tracks. You'll notice it then.
You need techonology. Given that the blade is magnetic I'm sure a capacitive touch sensor (like the iPad's screen but flexible with no display) could be developed for the clothing. Someone with better electrical engineering skills than me will have to design that, but I'll program it!
+T1Oracle Add pressure sensors to the sword and you can have readings on where the thrust or cut landed and which what force. If you'd have competitions like that with a viewer interface including a model of the armor that shows hits in various colors depending on force, it would be very entertaining. Even watching Skallagrim's edits with colored circles helps me get a much better understanding of what's actually going on.
***** Pressure sensors would cost way more and be far less durable. Using the magnetism of the blade to detect impact electrically would be cheaper and more robust. Figuring out the sensors would take some work but it shouldn't be too hard.
I think having some kind of chalked tip to leave behind marks would be a safe way to identify thrusts when they happen. Better idea than velcro, anyway. I do also agree with the idea that tips shouldn't be so smooth and slippery, otherwise they'll not function very realistically in the thrust.
scholagladiatoria just passing through i know jack, but couldn't you just flatten the tips? it seems to me like that would decrease the sliding and increase the blunt force making it easier to notice.
Boi im waiting for ultrarealistic simulatet reality to letzten us simulate turnaments unser reallive conditions. Obviously without all the death.. and the fear of death - wich could present a minor problem realityterm wise
scholagladiatoria Ahh. I'm just getting into the practice of hema since I'm very interested in weapons martial arts as a whole. Most of my experience is with Filipino, Chinese, and Japanese martial arts. The shinai bit was more of a joke though - aside from the reality that being on the wrong end of a good thrust with one hurts like fuck
Well, well, welcome to the issue of trying to judge hits in competitions. In sport fencing we have had over 120 years of experience of this and it has evolved in a sport quite different from its routes whether you like this or not (& I guess 99.99% of people here wont) is not relevant. If you want realistic competitions with real weapons then you need to be prepared to really hurt or kill them. If you dont then start sport fencing (we've been there done that over a hundred years ago!)
Pop a blob of red lipstick on the end of the sword, and have everyone wear white T-shirts over everything. If a thrust lands in the chest, shoulders or abdomen it'll make a visible mark.
The Casual Longsword yeah, that's the idea, so it shows. You'd need something that washes out though. Maybe snooker chalk? Get it out with a dust-buster...?
Skiamakhos , I never really had any issues of thrusts not sticking or trusts not being called. Thrusts techniques are my favorite. instagram.com/p/BP2eBlFjfFv/
Fixing the equipment would be very effective- and the best fix would be to remove all that armor. It's unarmored fighting- yet the techniques involved during tournies don't take this at all into consideration. Every one is unafraid of being struck. It would fix many issues, and improve the art of the swordplay as well. More refined technique would be adopted if every one wasn't totally protected from injury. In the environment of fighting without protection (barring facial protection), one behaves much more reservedly. And it is in this environment that one finds added intensity to the bout, and thus closer to the realism HEMA practitioners cherish... But that is not the only grand implication. The *most important* implication would be: In the reserved-sentiment fighting that would take place in unarmored tournaments, a fighter with greater skill has more opportunity to make use of those skills. Skills in the current armored-scenario are often overlooked when a opponents experience a moment of high intensity, and both swing with little control and by mostly chance one comes out on top with a connection. It is likely that this sort of occurrence would happen far less when being struck would leave a bruise or possibly even an injury (very possible in the case of being struck on the knee or hands/wrists!) Thus, a lack of armor would allow for more use of one's skills in the competition. All that padding changes the competition. It's as influential as boxing gloves were to the sport of boxing, and frankly, fighting in all that armor deserves to be relegated to a category with its own rules that accommodate the changes to the fight-environment created by aaaaaall that armor.
Jifftastic Ghozt By the way, an anecdote... Putting a small stopped-point on the end and letting it draw blood on an exposed opponent would be nicely encouraging for the realism of the swordsmanship, as well. An imbalance of how scary cuts versus thrusts are is some thing to be avoided. Both should be frightening and painful. It's just a small wound, and it'd provide a very quick escalation of HEMA's renown as True Sword Fighting. It'd also free it from worrisome doubts about its potentially developing into another weakened-sport-fencing fate.
Somewhere in the middle would be great, fencing gear but with hema gloves and joint protection. Closer to motorcycle gear than the riot gear we often see?
I have run into this problem quite a bit in SCA rapier fencing where it is on the honor system as to scoring (where you quickly find out people have no honor). Their are a few workarounds such as thrust and stay in and use your forte to parry any incoming blows. If you keep advancing SLOWLY with the point in the other person within about one second or so it becomes painfully obvious that you have in fact landed. The other less polite way is to just rail them so that they flinch back when struck if they are not accepting the thrust when landed politely. I never found this to be objectionable because they are either A. not feeling it so you need to hit harder or B. are an honorless schmuck and deserve a little pain to get the "point" of sportsmanship across.
Many soft rubbers have an extremely high friction coefficient, especially in contact with fabrics, which would produce a 'bite'. It would require maintenance, but it would simply be a matter of dipping existing safety tips in a liquid compound, and letting it cure.
Why do that when there is a better maintenance free solution? Why complicate it? Pointes d'arrete need almost no maintenance.
Excellent point! A point d'arrêt would solve this problem but might wreak havoc on jackets. Perhaps a bit of velcro(hook side), or rough sand paper, glued to the tip could serve the same purpose. Of course one could always go with with the full velcro jacket & tip. This would have the added advantage of allowing the use of Nerf missile weapons in sparring.
Not that I've been involved with anything like HEMA, at all; so these are just my observations as a casual observer.
But I've always wondered why nothing has ever been implemented that has a similar effect to paintball for Firefights; where a hit leaves a visible mark on the other person. Chalking the blade and point would work nicely, and would show you, not only that the blade hit, but also where it hit, and potentially how hard. What (if any) are the reasons that nothing like this has ever happened?
The most immediate issue I can see is that the marks would be difficult to get off the jackets. On top of that, the marks would still remain regardless of whether or not the strike wasn't actually any good.
In sabre they used it before electrifying them. Issues are 1 the thrusts would leave a small mark 2 everyone should wear white like in modern fencing 3 the mark would not be really correlated with it being from a good hit, which is one of the main judging issues.
Ok, so to put it short, below people talked about:
Fresh paint on the blades.
Patterned rubber tips for adherence
Sandpaper-like tips
Ways of sticking the point on the sparring garment (velcro, hockey tape...)
The spiky tip Matt mentioned (though it is pretty clear that it's not practical or safe)
More suggestions...
I think you misunderstand matt s suggestion. It was still a round tip like he showed, but with a short spike. 1 mm would be enough. So not to much possibility for hurting somebody.
Although if it hits skin it could make damage, so rubber tip seems smarter :)
@@myowndata Yeah.... real skis are dangerous too, you may break a leg. So why nsot replace them with Wii skiing? Crossing a street is dangerous too, also climbing trees. Sh*t! You've just made me realize life's dangerous and you'll probably end up dead.
If you are so worried about a skin scratch just don't fight in the nude.... and never, ever go near pins and needles, they're dangerous.
I must say that I think another part of the problem is also that humans more naturally hit than poke. So with the rules or equipment we need to make sure that thrusts are both noticed, properly recorded and adequately rewarded.
You nailed it by saying that participation in the tournaments is important. If judges are participating and have many hours of experience in tournaments their visual sensitivity is more acute to the lines being played. So I believe it's the responsiblity of the people judging (along with the penetration of the thrust in that round) need to look at the lines more in depth and what REALLY would be the result as you mention in the video, thank you.
a deep thrust wound may seem invisible and not felt particularly, but a minute latter your enemy may apparently collapse in mid flow. Simply fall down after a slight delay realising he's as good as dead. It can seem quite baffling ...'I never hit him!'
I personally started off as a sport fencer before I discovered real HEMA, so I generally throw a lot more thrusts--and often the judges don't notice for the reasons discussed, and it gets frustrating when the blade slides off and doesn't get noticed, and I find it occasionally makes me telegraph more when I'm thrusting, with the hopes that a judge will take note of it. I do hope we can find a way to make thrusts a bit more viable in competition
Thanks for this video. Always such a pleasure to watch :)
Allow me to approximate "point d'arrêt" from my native French. In both words, the 't' sound will be silent.
Point [poo-waeh] (try to give it a bit of "ungh" at the end like someone on the receiving end of a thrust, say. Or even like the sound "boing", yes I'm aware how silly that sounds)
d'arrêt [da-reh]
Also, the sound of 'ê' here would be like the 'e' in 'egg'
SCA Rapier uses rubber blunts or "Bird Blunts" (as they are called in archery), with a small metal washer inserted so that it rests on the tip, perpendicular to the blade (to keep the metal blade from pushing through the softer rubber over time). The trick for HEMA use would probably be making sure they are light enough that they don't upset the balance of the sword. With some of the heaver side and arming swords I doubt it would be noticeable. Thanks for the videos!
Sport fencing faced this very same problem a long time ago. The point d'Arrêt was a mecanism for early sport fencing but it was not good enough. Also it is not useful for judging cutting strokes (in sabre). The fencing judges in early sport fencing were experts (in important competitions at least), and yet they made many mistakes or were biased.
That is why sport fencing introduced the electrical system that most HEMA practicioners seem to hate. In practical terms it would be perfectly feasible and very easy to incorporate electrical equipment to HEMA competitions, but I know many people would be against it for being non-historical (and yet they already use lots of non-historical gear).
Apart from that, no, there is no effective human solution for the issue mentioned in the video. Many fencing actions are just too fast and/or subtle to be properly appreciated by the human eye, even for an expert. That is a fact.
In a real fight a cut with almost no force or badly executed would not even penetrate clothes, with electricity it would count. It's not about being non-historical but about being REAL.
There is no PERFECT solution, but there are BETTER solutions. That is a fact.
Good to hear that thrusts and cuts should be fairly balanced. In my club I've noticed that I favor thrusts a lot more than others, and I wasn't sure if this was just me doing it wrong. Having said that, I've found thrusts very effective at quickly getting past people's guard. It might just be that they aren't expecting it as much though.
Hello, I come from an Olympic fencing background of Foil and Epee. I've only just discovered HEMA and was watching a video on a sabre fighting in a tournament called Swordfish, and I kept wondering why no one was thrusting. You're absolutely right I think judges of the sport should be trained better to identify a successful lunge/thrust. Also having video review of the action could help. Its what they do in Olympic fencing tournaments. As often times it can be too fast to follow even with a blinking light that indicates a touch. As far as equipment, I think the only way for Technology to aid HEMA is to develop a blade with a radio transmitter attached to it, so it can signal a successful thrust.
I've been put on my arse by a SCA pike thrust to the face, and I've stopped a guy's advance when I thrust him in the thigh. However I have also had people not take thrusts because they didn't "pop" even if said thrust from me arrested my forward momentum and pushed me back.
Mesh/deeply textured surfaces on top of armor might do well to "catch" thrusts.
Also,
"Asociacion de esgrima antigua sala el Batallador" on facebook adds another good point to this video - with flexible training swords, cuts hurt more than thrusts, so fighters who favor cuts have the intimidation factor. The answer would be to use stiffer blades. (paraphrased)
Returning to my first idea, textured surfaces would do well with both types of swords.
Our club has had a similar problem using the rawlings synthetics that we've mostly remedied with hockey tape on the tip of the blade. it sticks really well to most of the equipment
I think one of the most viable ways to determine hits with thrusts would be to use some sort of rubber tip, or a textured tip of some sort that grips well as discussed below. Another possibility is dedicating one judge just to thrusts or to simply train the judges to notice thrusts more. Having not judged a competition before, I can't say whether this would be effective or not, but I think it's good in theory.
One of the best things would be to use a Epee Hitmate. It is wireless and If you attached a epee tip or just taped an epee lade to the side of the sword on contact you would know if you had contact.
It's really hard to judge when contact is made in epee, that is why this device is so good when paired with epee tip.
It would seem a plunger type tip like modern electric fencing gear has would solve most of this issue. You don't need a full on light system, just a buzzer box like used for testing points. That way you get the noise when a point has landed with enough force, just like cuts.
Rather than spiky bits, a tacky rubber edge would produce the same effect with less injury potential. An alternative might be some sort of chalked cloth that would produce a colored mark where the tip connects.
I've just watched this video and cannot disagree. Since we keep experimenting with technical solutions in my HEMA club, here are the first ideas that come to my mind as far as equipment is concerned :
- Some weapons are simply too stiff. One have good federschwerts that bend nicely on thrusts without getting all wobbly in binds, like the Red Dragon Club you recently reviewed, so a good feder makes already quite a difference. Besides, the equivalent of the feder hasn't been designed yet for other weapons like arming swords, sabers...
- The tip makes a large difference, as you pointed out. I'm not sure point d'arrêt would be allowed as it might be a bit dangerous, but other tips are possible. For rapiers for example, I prefer to have a rubber blunt affixed to the blade rather than a flat-tipped blade. First (for style), it can be removed to sheath the weapon. Second (for safety), it is usually larger and absorbs a bit of the impact, so it hurts the opponent less. And third (for judging), it sticks more to the fabric and therefore the blade bends more. For rolled tips like the feder ones, I think about gluing grip tape (skateboard style, or better if something better is available) to the tip. I will try to experiment on that in my club and give a feedback asap !
One thing to mention is that rubber tips, which are very popular, don't slide off the way steel ones do.
The problem is that rigid hand protection is necessary with longsword, and even then you still need some padding underneath. Even with that we're still having problems with broken thumbs. Although, some of this issue is because people are favouring percussive hits over drawing or pushing cuts.
Maybe a solution would be to use a special armor that would catch all kinds of thrust, like a mesh or mail. Connect that to the detector like in sport fencing - resistive detector should catch both good thrusts and proper cuts.It will catch bad or sliding ones too as intermittent contact. Combine with pressure sensors (more sophisticated than buttons), put them in the armor to detect force.
It surprises me greatly to learn that tournaments produce a great deal of cutting. Posta Longa and half-swording thrusts was always my favorite from the Italian manuscripts of Fiore Dei Libri. Now that I think about it, all the videos I watch involving any sparring or tournament does involve cutting... unless it is a European (Western) crossover fight with an Eastern one (typically of Japanese origin) in which the Western fighter seems to instinctively know or learn that thrusting is the way to go and usually wins in this manner.
My feder's rolled tip is a bit too narrow, so I put a blunt over it (.44 shell casing). If you cover the blunt in friction tape, it sticks pretty well in the thrust.
How about piezoelectic sensors in the clothing? They're the type of sensor used in electronic drum kits, they pick up vibrations in the surface they're connected to and transmit them as electric signals. They would transmit both the location and intensity of a hit, and they're pretty cheap and very durable.
The solution you're describing sounds an awful lot like an industrial grade hook-and-loop fastener (Also known as Velcro). There's some pretty hardcore varieties on the market (including a few styles that are made out of steel), so maybe that's something worth experimenting with?
In FIE fencing this becomes such a huge problem when sparring. Maybe a wireless electrical scoring system just for the tip? Spiky bits at the point would work too, but I'd imagine that could become a safety concern.
In the SCA (rapier), since almost all our weapons have rubber tips, they tend to stick better on the mask or clothes. We also are wearing less protection, so its easier to feel the thrust land on you.
Agreed. Same in Adria and we call the cuts and thrusts ourselves by declaring 'Good!' when we are hit. I'd guess that's about 90% accurate.
Wow, thrusts aren't evaluated enough? If I had to fight, for real, with a sword, against an enemy, that's all what I would do ! Fake a cut or an attack then stab stab stab stab stab, then stab some more! THE STAB: quick to do, easy to recover, very hard to predict where it lands. Hell, most medieval swords were designed as stabbing weapons, would be a shame not to take an advantage of what the weapon was intended for.
I have this idea that it's possible to make a tatami robot opponent. Particularly for the movie industry, a non-human sparring partner which is an animated humanoid punch bag which can withstand damage and permit full-force engagement s a very cool idea.
Using some sort of paint on the sword or a video tracker would make a lot of sense.
Yes, a small metal thistle on the end of the sword would make a lot of sense.
I think this may be, in part, an armour/glove issue, like what you were noticing about the overuse of posta breve. I suspect that with different, less encumberant armour (a light gambeson, perhaps? Or something to take the sting of strikes without otherwise hampering movement too much) and more flexible gloves (I find this whole hockey glove business absurd), thrusts may come out more.
Now, I haven't seen every single one, but in a good number of longsword tournament vids, the thrust seems pretty popular. The most visible one appears to be the longsword equivalent of "throw point", with one hand released from the sword for maximum range. But again, I haven't seen them all, and I've not done a scientific, controlled count of each point scored in each one I have seen.
What you really need is a near instantaneous video processing suite. This would be a program which takes in data on edge alignment, weapon speed and point of impact and computes the likely bleeding and damage that would be caused to the target. That or a suit and weapon that read the angle, force and location of impact. With either you could have a lovely print out of all the wounds you would have sustained if the fight were real.
I've noticed the same problem in my own HEMA group; thrusts are more or less ignored because they're so easily missed. Good to know it's not just my group trying to deal with that issue.
I think there is a lot of value in using foam covered practice swords with a large stabbing footprint. For power and pain incentive I usually practice with these with helmet and hand protection only. I use ultralight bamboo or thin aluminum reinforced with tape and cover it with a foam rubber sheeth. This means that the foam makes stabs bite and stick transferring force into the partner and slashes can be intensely strong as well as very respected. The pain is excruciating without any significant injury and the swords will snap before bones will. I've been using these for years as a fun passed time and sometimes to settle arguments about who is more skilled and with exception of an eye injury I received for being a jackass by not wearing a helmet no one has ever been injured. Screening pain but it's like a belly flop. The only things that don't get well trained are edge alignment and the understanding of metallic slip. For which I practice with metal blades in a more controlled way. I'm suggesting it as a supplement as I think the pain factor is really important to the fear involved in conflict and because the blade cores are breakable going full force is not a problem.
I wonder if the electric systems of modern fencing would prove useful.
Modern electric systems used in fencing are exactly the thing that makes sport fencing a sport. HEMA is a martial art, it's about being unplugged not plugged in.
miroslav m
Because sports don't have judges, or because electronics don't belong in anything martial? Maybe electronics don't belong in art? I really can't follow your reasoning.
And was fencing not a sport before the electronic systems?
It doesn’t belong in this martial art, it’s just the way it is and it’s good that it is so.
Again you are making parallels with sports, modern sport fencing always was, as the name implies, a sport so the introduction of electronic system is justified if it’s necessary. In sport fencing the primary goal is to hit first no mater what in martial arts (at least the western ones) the point is to hit but not get hit this fundamental difference means that in sport fencing you get the mentality that allows for “attacking” without thinking of the consequences, as long as you hit first it doesn’t mater that you get hit afterwards. So the whole thing becomes essentially a suicide game from a real life perspective, the judge can no longer see what is going on because it gets so fast since the fencers are reacting on instinct, there in no thinking since there is no time to think. In a real fight you can’t afford not to think since life is only one, if you lose it that's it, that is way real sword fighting is much slower then sport fencing.
An electric detection system in actual martial arts is as necessary as wings are on a chicken, you can quote me on that one.
miroslav m
Saying something is true because that's just the way it is isn't a valid argument, it's about as relevant as that gibberish you spouted about not being plugged in. As for it not being necessary there is about seven minutes of video that makes a compelling argument to the contrary.
Be honest, you're really just a bit of a Luddite aren't you? HEMA isn't about learning and understanding history to you, it's about trying to live in the past.
miroslav m "An electric detection system in actual martial arts is as necessary as wings are on a chicken, you can quote me on that one."
Alright, I'm quoting you. I take it you've never owned a chicken? I grew up on a farm and chickens do use their wings. Chickens prefer not to roost on the ground because of predators. Look inside any chicken coop. There aren't exactly any staircases.
That being said, humans are terrible at noticing details. We only see what we're focused on. Like the guy in the video said, you might not notice yourself if you've been hit with a thrust. Haven't you ever accidentally cut yourself and not notice before? I certainly have. I knew a guy who got shot just below his shoulder with a .223 while hunting and he didn't know right away. His right arm just went limp and he stuck his hand inside his parka and when he pulled it out it was covered in blood. To say there is no use for a machine (that you're typing on) that can perform billions of calculations per second is narrow minded. It's all in how you use it.
What about some rubbery silicone based stuff at the tip? something to add more grip at the moment the thrust lands, and could easily be fixed up when the rubber starts to tear and wear.
maybe filing some pattern (you know, like tyre profiles) into the rolled tip could do the job. Wouldn't be to sharp/pointy but add some grip.
Always remember people, don't thrust anyone!
Unless they give you their consent.
@@marcusrauch4223 What kinda thrusts we talking about? 🤔🤨
@@ColossalSwordFormAndTechnique how can I do a Lennyface?
Do you know those squeeky things out of rubber that when you press make a noise? It will be good and probably funny too to have a small version of them on the tip of swords for thrusts and when they land they make the squeeky noise XD.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I'm quite the thruster (Pun intended)
But sometimes other than not wearing much padding, it get brushed off since it slides.
What about a felt tip and some sort of chalk box out side the ring were one could redip the tip after a score. A nice white chalk would leave a nice mark.
I would say to take extremely coarse sandpaper and electrical tape a piece of it tightly to the tip of the sword, that way it will bite into the fabric without introducing a sharp point
what if you take a sort of chalk, something like the ones made for pool - and you cover the edge with some tape before a fight and rub it on the tip nicely (b;owing on it a bit so it wouldn't splash in contact with the mask maybe) - and then you can just see the mark it leaves on the fabric?
You nailed this issue.
The best solution is just covering the blade with special dye that you can't throw so when there's a thrust it will dye.
Another solution is connect the point of the sword to electricity source in order to electrify the opponent when he gets a thrust (also there would be a button so it has to be a little bit powerful, like a real thrust)
The point is more important than the edge.
Core of thrusting strikes problems in HEMA is in judgement system. Because of nature of thrusting strikes in most cases only 1 judge will see how did thrust landed to its target (if you're very lucky - two). But if only one judge will see that thrust, it won't be counted. And that's main problem. HEMA needs to start giving priority to judges who were on the side of strike and surely saw it perfectly, or otherwise it will continue making great impact on fighting styles of fighters and results of tournaments.
Just watched recordings of swordfish-2015 few days ago and i saw many (like MANY) fighters who lost their matches because only one judge saw their thrusts (or cuts landed to mid-section from one of the sides), and i saw number of fighters who are not taking guards after successfull thrust and reseiving afterblows because it's the only way to make sure that judges will count their hit.
Yes, of course, you could try to solve that somehow by amunition upgrading, but it's much harder and brings number of other problems.
I wonder if they could have a rule where only one judge needs to see a thrust. Then he could give a different sign to indicate he saw a thrust and that he is boss and it's gonna count. Whereas cuts could continue to require 2 judges.
+scholagladiatoria Since this video is 2.5 years old now, I wonder if you've noticed this changing in HEMA at all since you made the video?
I'm a Fiore guy like you, but we've noticed that the German style clubs in the area around where we live (who we are fortunate to fight with somewhat regularly) used to be very cut focused but have recently shifted to doing a lot more thrusting. (That said, we ourselves may tend towards using colpi still...)
the popular misconception that German style was mainly about cutting came from German sport, not actual German fighting. In the German sport thrusts were banned to make it safer because they were so effective at killing or causing injury. Earlier German manuscripts (duelling, not sport) show a wide variety of cuts.
Velcro tips would have the same effect as the stop points of the old days minus the possibility of slight injury.
Igabod Dobagi That or perhaps some kind of grip tape or sandpaper, could be cheap and effective.
In my group we put rubber arrow blunts on the tips of our steel swords, and those stick on thrusts rather well. Perhaps we can make efforts to make that a more common practice?
How about sand paper? Stick sand paper on and around the tip that way it will bite and be noticed, wont harm the sparing partner (too much) and wont effect the overall performance of the weapon
perhaps HEMA fencing jackets could adopt an outer velcro-like material in combination with a point d`arret to make the blade stick, and maybe said coating could be removeable. It would save the jacket from getting too many loose threads, and make the point bite enough to stay stuck. But thats just a theory
It wouldn't work because HEMA trains for the after blows. After you thrust, you immediately retreat, guard, knock the other guys' sword off. No you can't have the sword sticking somewhere.
would it be possible to put a small bit of chalk into the tip, that would visibly mark the often dark fencing jackets? Non abrasive, easily wiped of but visible when you need it.
How about electronic scoring? I know, I know that is ruined the olympic fencing, but maybe with a responsible, HEMA-oriented state of mind, it might be modified to be used in a positive manner to determine a viable thrust?
Honestly I believe what went wrong with Olympic fencing have more to do with people seeing it as a competitive sport rand not a martial art and using electronic sport thusly, rather than the electronic scoring itself.
There are similar issues with thrusts in SCA combat. There are additional issues, however. First, thrusts tend to slide off of armor especially well. Second, light thrusts to the face are easy to deliver and difficult to block and are seen as "cheap shots" by many combatants.
Just a thought... a relatively "light thrust" to the face is going to be pretty damaging on an unarmored opponenet. Whether it be the eyes or any part of the face. Its not going to be something you just walk away from afterwards. It definitely doesn't make for a fun sport but it depends on what you're really trying to recreate through the competitions.
WarriorofCathar
Right. "Cheap shots" are in practical terms "more for less". I.e. the best kind of shots.
That’s because SCA has nothing to do with actual combat techniques and real weapons, so talking about anything real in that context is pointless.
No kind of hit to the head is easy since the head is the easiest to defend, if some one got to close and he is able to hit you in the head its not because light trust are too fast but because you made a mistake of allowing him to get that close, which is probably due to bad footwork.
20 lpi checkering on existing tips would grab quite well
Would of been nice if you would of had a video of a HEMA match and show some thrust to maybe get some visual context. I mean it is the same in iaido when you make a thrust to the neck and it hits, that strike would be hard for the judges to call a point for it. Which to me is amusing because even a good jab from any point on an object is lethal. Chopstick anyone, or a pen and pencil?
Rubber tips make thrust stick pretty good. Also make the thrust safer.
The louder the sound, the more energy from the strike is wasted by sound energy. So the loudest strikes would be even less damaging.
maybe you could use paint, in swordpoints?
paintball uses paint to note hits.
you need to reload paint though... after each fight
You could also try using sensors.
Thrusting is not easy to block or dodge. It is definitely underused in HEMA sparring matches. In a real fight, thrust counters are the way to go. Imagine fighting against an opponent that focuses on only thrusts and counter attacks. It's not easy to beat a defensive thruster.
wanting to get into longsword and that is one of the things I noticed as well, also noticed that the intensity is not there. ie.. strike, parry, point, start over. kind of lame. I think 1 or 2 min rounds, no holds barred, 5 or more cameras to record fight, judge winner after fight. Put a tip on the sword! the kind you talk about in the video or something like it, even a paint marker! it's a badass sport but in order for it to become super popular it needs some flash and polish.
+Eli Hood The problem with not stopping and starting over is that many hits in an unarmored swordfight would end the fight if real sword was used. If you don't stop the fight techniques that doesn't use the sword would be very good or has to be against the rules, such as throws and domination on the ground.
For example, let's say that I'm able tog get a clear and strong cut to your head and you use the time it takes me to do that cut to close distance and throw me to the ground. If you then control me with say an armbar. How would you score that? If I tap out does that mean that you win the round?
Or even more so, what if you dominate me on the ground and still have your sword and hit me 30 times while you're on top? With a real sword my cut to your head would probably stop you from throwing me down in the first place.
While it might be fun to watch and would be very intense, a ruleset like that would have to ignore that swords are sharp weapons that can end a fight very fast. I'm not saying that the different rulesets of today are perfect and there is a need for improvement, but I don't think this is the answer.
What you say is true and possibly I shouldn't drink after training/practice. I don't have the answers, it just looks like some of the fights are half speed, kind of boring to watch, you have to admit you don't get sponsors or cool gear by being boring.
+Eli Hood Don't say that, some of my best ideas has come to me while I've been drunk, it's just that I don't remember why they were that good the day after. =)
And I agree that some fights are kind of boring, but the ting is that I've seen some of the worse and some of the best fights in the same tournament. So I think it might have more to do with the fencers than the rules. Today HEMA is so small that in most tournaments you see both internationally good fencers and some fencers that are mediocre even in their own club. It's just natural that the person who enter his/her first tournament will be much slower. With that said, there is ofc also a possibility that it is the rules that promote half speed fencing. But as the fast fencers tends to win I think that's a good sign.
But I totally agree with you that for HEMA to be entertaining to watch for people outside of our own small group, both rules, fencers and tournament administration have to improve.
+gurkfisk89 , so you sound like you know what's happening in the HEMA or longsword fighting community. I've been looking for a decent website to help w training/stay up to date on events. found a few but there are also sites that want your money. which is fine if it's gonna actually pay off. I guess I'm just undecided and looking for an opinion. There is a fencing school that has longsword classes once a week and I may go to a few but, it's at least 40 miles one way.
I've been getting more and more into rapiers, and since rapiers are a mostly thrusting weapon, I'm guessing this is a big problem there. Something to keep in mind, I guess.
Thank you! Agreed!
maybe they could put sensors on the armor, or some sort of light electric current that senses when a metal sword has touched it
That is exactly what he want to avoid doing at all costs in HEMA. The day we do that, we will degrade the entire skill to a level of a modern sport/recreation thing and it will lose all of its martial arts context. It’s the same thing that happens in every so called martial art/combat sport today, in order something to become a sport it can’t be a martial art at the same time.
miroslav m it's already a sport, what you mean is that you don't want it to "have rules". and it's not far fetched for an electrical on a conductive surface and have that be the armor. it's what they do in sport fencing, to know when a hit has landed. okay, so don't do anything about it, so that people in HEMA will grow to underappreciate thrusts, and they go only for very visible, very loud cuts that they know will be noticed, and eventually it doesn't resemble the martial art anymore
I thing you missed my point I’ll try to explain a little better. Sword fighting whether you want to call it HEMA now a days or something ease is not a sport and it’s not meant to be a sport. As far as the rules goes, I am all for rules but NOT SPORT RULES since those are completely out of all context for a martial art. I am for rules that will make sure that the fighters are going to do techniques and have a mentality that they would have in a real fight where its life or death and not a fight for points. Fact is that as soon as you turn something in to a fight for points you are going to make some unwanted scarifies and allow some necessary evils and that is a problem that we now see emerging in HEMA tournaments, people doing techniques that work only in a tournament but not real life (they are meant to win points) or fighting in a way we know they shouldn’t in a real fight. After all there are no pints in real life, life is only one, what happens in that first clash is it.
As far as underappreciateing thrusts, that is pretty much impossible if you know what are you doing and if you where trained properly, that is as simple as I can make it. What you are describing is that we do the same thing that you see in movies, where we use raw power and long cut and no fines, it’s just not like that. Another problem is that the tournaments have no rules regarding the skill level of people involved so you have people that trained for 5+ years and know what it is and what it isn’t and people that trained for one or maybe two years than don’t know shit about anything and there for cant judge the situation correctly. As I mention it above in order for the fighters to have the necessary mentality/behavior and understanding they need to know what they are doing and that doesn’t happened after meny years, its just that complex. If people know what they are doing we don’t really need judges.
miroslav m I'm sorry I must disagree. Using technology to enhance the realism is pretty much a necessity as long as we endeavor not to injure each other. It should actually be pretty simple to add an accelerometer to a sword hilt to give an accurate measurement of the force, and hence an estimation of the the severity of a thrust. Combined with a touch sensor either through a modern fencing style system, or otherwise, and you'd have a fairly accurate measurement of the strikes that do occur. And whether that measurement is used for points in a 'sport', or simply used as data in a historical re-enactment in order to learn what does and does not work, more accurate data is always going to lead to a better result.
miroslav m are you in favor of _any_ sort of competition with rules in martial arts? I know that some sacrifices would have to be made, but aren't competitions necessary in order to keep a martial art's practicality alive? sure, there might be some bad techniques that might be learned in a tournament, but there would also be a refinement of techniques, and losing techniques which wouldn't work in a real life situation (which the competition intends to simulate).
"Another problem is that the tournaments have no rules regarding the skill level of people involved so you have people that trained for 5+ years and know what it is and what it isn’t and people that trained for one or maybe two years than don’t know shit about anything and there for cant judge the situation correctly."
So you're in favor of making a standardized ranking system of skill? Isn't that the "sportification" you railed against in a martial arts?
how about red lipstick and white shirts?
only if you want an argument with a mrs.
What about painting the tip or chalking the tip?
VR HEMA is the future
What about wet painted tips?
Jonathan Allen Sounds like a fair plan =D
I kind of agree with this. In SCA, trust are almsot USELESS. Unless you put the weigth of your whole body in to it, or manage to push away your opponent, trust doesn't couth.
Video the whole figth from different angles, playback in slow motion, count the points. It's the only real solution i can think of.
I have noticed on the rare occasion I spar with anyone they never expect a thrust.
Wrap or glue a sheet of rubbish onto the tip for resistance/friction.
Easily fixed. Use less far protection and use only Albions. A good thrust from an Albion ought to stop a person in their tracks. You'll notice it then.
i think some kind of paint for the tips would solve this problem.
Like tiny meat tenderizer points?
You need techonology. Given that the blade is magnetic I'm sure a capacitive touch sensor (like the iPad's screen but flexible with no display) could be developed for the clothing. Someone with better electrical engineering skills than me will have to design that, but I'll program it!
+T1Oracle Add pressure sensors to the sword and you can have readings on where the thrust or cut landed and which what force. If you'd have competitions like that with a viewer interface including a model of the armor that shows hits in various colors depending on force, it would be very entertaining. Even watching Skallagrim's edits with colored circles helps me get a much better understanding of what's actually going on.
***** Pressure sensors would cost way more and be far less durable. Using the magnetism of the blade to detect impact electrically would be cheaper and more robust. Figuring out the sensors would take some work but it shouldn't be too hard.
Paint impregnated tips for the win.
My thoughts exactly, marker tips.
rubber tip?
Used currently.
Would Velcro work well for thrust points?
The tips of the swords are too small for velcro I think.
I think having some kind of chalked tip to leave behind marks would be a safe way to identify thrusts when they happen. Better idea than velcro, anyway.
I do also agree with the idea that tips shouldn't be so smooth and slippery, otherwise they'll not function very realistically in the thrust.
scholagladiatoria
just passing through i know jack, but couldn't you just flatten the tips? it seems to me like that would decrease the sliding and increase the blunt force making it easier to notice.
what the name of that sword
Daphne
+andrew osinga looks like a Regenyei federschwert, but I'm not sure.
Can you use magnets?
No, because no one knows how magnets work. They are magic. ;D
Boi im waiting for ultrarealistic simulatet reality to letzten us simulate turnaments unser reallive conditions. Obviously without all the death.. and the fear of death - wich could present a minor problem realityterm wise
Attach a clown's nose to the tips of sparring swords. When a thrust lands, you'll hear it. XD
Thrusts are superior. We are dealing with an overwhelmingly eastern-circular culture that is interfering with proper individual development.
Spar with japanese shinai. You'll feel the fuck out of that XD
Timonsaylor We used to use shinai a lot in HEMA, before better tools came along.
scholagladiatoria Ahh. I'm just getting into the practice of hema since I'm very interested in weapons martial arts as a whole.
Most of my experience is with Filipino, Chinese, and Japanese martial arts. The shinai bit was more of a joke though - aside from the reality that being on the wrong end of a good thrust with one hurts like fuck
+scholagladiatoria not in Australia :(
+Robert R Where are you training in Australia that still uses shinai? I can't think of a single school that does.
symsee Sydney
Well, well, welcome to the issue of trying to judge hits in competitions. In sport fencing we have had over 120 years of experience of this and it has evolved in a sport quite different from its routes whether you like this or not (& I guess 99.99% of people here wont) is not relevant. If you want realistic competitions with real weapons then you need to be prepared to really hurt or kill them.
If you dont then start sport fencing (we've been there done that over a hundred years ago!)
Am I the only one who hears "Germany speaking" instead of "Generally speaking"??
Just tape sharpies to the ends of your weapons.
Pop a blob of red lipstick on the end of the sword, and have everyone wear white T-shirts over everything. If a thrust lands in the chest, shoulders or abdomen it'll make a visible mark.
You'll mark up their cloth...
The Casual Longsword yeah, that's the idea, so it shows. You'd need something that washes out though. Maybe snooker chalk? Get it out with a dust-buster...?
Skiamakhos , I never really had any issues of thrusts not sticking or trusts not being called. Thrusts techniques are my favorite. instagram.com/p/BP2eBlFjfFv/
Thumbnail looks like you're flipping someone off
grip tape
Fixing the equipment would be very effective- and the best fix would be to remove all that armor. It's unarmored fighting- yet the techniques involved during tournies don't take this at all into consideration. Every one is unafraid of being struck.
It would fix many issues, and improve the art of the swordplay as well. More refined technique would be adopted if every one wasn't totally protected from injury. In the environment of fighting without protection (barring facial protection), one behaves much more reservedly. And it is in this environment that one finds added intensity to the bout, and thus closer to the realism HEMA practitioners cherish...
But that is not the only grand implication. The *most important* implication would be: In the reserved-sentiment fighting that would take place in unarmored tournaments, a fighter with greater skill has more opportunity to make use of those skills. Skills in the current armored-scenario are often overlooked when a opponents experience a moment of high intensity, and both swing with little control and by mostly chance one comes out on top with a connection. It is likely that this sort of occurrence would happen far less when being struck would leave a bruise or possibly even an injury (very possible in the case of being struck on the knee or hands/wrists!) Thus, a lack of armor would allow for more use of one's skills in the competition.
All that padding changes the competition. It's as influential as boxing gloves were to the sport of boxing, and frankly, fighting in all that armor deserves to be relegated to a category with its own rules that accommodate the changes to the fight-environment created by aaaaaall that armor.
Jifftastic Ghozt By the way, an anecdote... Putting a small stopped-point on the end and letting it draw blood on an exposed opponent would be nicely encouraging for the realism of the swordsmanship, as well. An imbalance of how scary cuts versus thrusts are is some thing to be avoided. Both should be frightening and painful.
It's just a small wound, and it'd provide a very quick escalation of HEMA's renown as True Sword Fighting. It'd also free it from worrisome doubts about its potentially developing into another weakened-sport-fencing fate.
Somewhere in the middle would be great, fencing gear but with hema gloves and joint protection.
Closer to motorcycle gear than the riot gear we often see?