It seems like a lot of college grads have to become self taught after finishing their degree, as they didn't get a ton of real world dev experience during school.
This is me, and I agree with you. But I also need to Continue to do that to stay competitive as a developer. I learned C++ and theory in school and have had to continue to learn react and distributed systems in real life. Each job asks something different and recruiters key word search and don't realize when javascript, react, vue are all the same thing in most ways practically. Continuous learning is the skillset of getting the degree and doing the job. You can skip the learning step by learning yourself but continuous learning and practice are in the job description.
Yep, intern on my team only learned some Python for scripting and data mining, and barely anything else. I couldn't believe how awful his CS degree was, and it's from a high tier school.
Especially fields like software dev which are not as niche or hard to enter as people in the field like to think. I was in grad school for cognitive neuroscience before transitioning into industry ML work. It is far harder to enter the sciences than software development. Unless you seriously specialize and differentiate yourself, most software devs are quite easy to replace and have the pick of the litter. Principle researchers, not so much.
@@perelium-x It is still easier to enter then let's say law or medicine. In order to become a lawyer for example you would need 4 years of school and to pass the bar or whatever it is called (I am not from USA). In SWE the only barrier is knowledge meaning that more people can enter the industry quicker. Won't even talk about medicine, it's like almost decade of education before you are even considered to be a doctor. When it comes to barriers of entry SWE is pretty much on the same level as many trades. Maybe even easier than some trades since many trades require at least somebody else to mentor you (I don't know anybody who became electrician by watching videos on Udemy and UA-cam but I know hundreds who became developers by doing so)
@@hamm8934That's because businesses don't care about spaghetti code or technical debt, as long as you can "write" React. Architecting good software is no easy feat. Don't even get me started on the shit Python code you AI/ML folks write.
@@perelium-x Maybe 10 years ago I would agree with this, but front end nowadays has become complicated in a lot of ways due to websites basically becoming full size software applications. The days of a little dev shop churning out simple Wordpress sites are about over, and now front end devs (which are mostly full-stack these days) have to create more than CSS and some html tags, building fully interactive features, bringing in data and managing it without breaking stuff can be pretty hard. And as these apps age, maintainability is going to become a big area of opportunity, as someone will need to know legacy React, NextJS, and .net projects.
IMHO the root of all that college/uni related discussions is that it's quite often presented to people as college/uni is the mandatory step before you get into real life/job. For me it's pretty common to hear things like "you either get your bachelors/masters/etc. or never become competent worker in your industry" And then people get into the college and start asking themselves "why in the world would i need to learn that, that and that" (at least in my country). I can't underestimate what uni gave me while I was studying calculus, analytical geometry, topology, linear algebra, group theory, complex analysis and many more challenging stuff during my couple of years in university. But when I got my first job as a software engineer during my 2nd year of uni there came an understanding that like 90%+ of stuff from uni might be never used again. In terms of getting the most useful information for getting and succeeding in a job, uni is not a great option in my opinion. (if we ignore the fact that require cs degree needed as some formal requirement) However, the good uni gives you strong fundamentals like all that maths/general computer sciense stuff and social connections with future software engineers. I think I would never try to get into those subjects mentioned earlier if being self-taught and even landing some good job. Fundamentals thing is like when you solve leetcode problems you start to notice at the job if you accidentally use O(n^2) code when you can use something better. But in case of uni it's your perspective on many and many things around you is what is being changed for the better. And when it comes to connections with fellow engineers or companies internships from uni, it just makes things easier if you start your CS path as some normie without rich parents and anyone close to you who is related to the industry.
It feels weird to give a serious reaction to a comedy show clip, but there's always a little bit of truth in every joke edit: maybe i was confusing in the video, but i'm not trying to make a recommendation for or against college. You have to make a decision based on your situation. I just tried to give some pros / cons for each, as i see them.
I completely agree with you. Everybody is self taught. I am currently in 4th sem. I have learnt entire DSA from youtube. Whatever web/app technologies I know, I have learnt from youtube. Even for the exams majority of my batchmates watch video lectures before exam to get good grades. This is the reality!!
@@satyamjha68 False. There are people who are purely self-taught. The thing is though, self-taught is not really the end goal, the end goal is to obtain a lifelong learning mindset doesn't matter if you're in school or not and I would say almost self-taught people already have that mindset but a lot of those who went to college are just there to get a degree and then they become stagnant. Not all those people who went to college are lifelong learner. Luckily, you have that mindset (hopefully) but most people don't. I have a similar experience as yours although I took cs minor and learn a lot of things on my on when it comes to software engineering and math related.
People look at Gates without realizing how extremely wealthy and well-connected his family was. Yes, he is incredibly smart, but he also had private education, tutoring and access to computers in the late 60s, early 70s through his school. I would recommend those people to read Paul Allen's autobiography, but I imagine those types of people only want confirmation bias, so it's pointless. Gates and Allen knew each other before Harvard, but they did meet a few people who played a role in Microsoft's success at Harvard, like the electrical engineer (forget his name, but think he helped with the Altair BASIC or something) and Steve Ballmer. I'd be surprised if boot camps are tenable for the next few years even as market improves. There's too many CS grads that are unemployed because of hiring freezes. The problem with bootcamps is a lot of them charge a shit ton too. At that point, just get your degree. If you can't get a SWE job, at least your degree is useful for pivoting.
Right. On the opposite spectrum from how Bill Gates was raised and supported, you have people like me who had no support, hardly any guidance, etc. I hate to play the victim, but I feel like if I had proper guidance growing up things likely would have been better overall for me. Just being honest. For example, if I had a dad that taught me about saving or retirement, etc., then perhaps I would have valued and/or understood the importance of it MUCH earlier, etc
Bill Gates mom Mary Maxwell Gates worked on IBM board of directors. Which she convinced them to invest into her sons company Microsoft. Yes, Bill was talented and hard working but he had a ridiculous advantage compared to other people.
Bootcampers or self taught people claiming "self taught " LMAO They don't realize majority of the work in university involves you teaching yourself by watching UA-cam. How many people actually watched their algorithms lectures via their university and not watch Abdul Bari here. Thats why neetcode at @7:55 makes so much sense
self-taught usually means figuring out what needs to be learned by yourself and then learning those things by yourself. cs majors and bootcampers generally aren't considered self-taught since they need someone to tell them what to learn, when to learn it, etc. that's why neetcode included "in a sense" in his outro.
So basically this means that the job market is pay-to-work. If you can learn everything that someone in CS program can AND you do it, BUT you chose not to out yourself in debt to the government, you don’t get a job whereas the one who is hooked to the government does. That is what the job market in the US has boiled down to for certain jobs as the barrier to entry has gotten lower
Then why pay for college? I really don't get it. Just for a degree? Why do companies value degrees more if you are mostly self taught even in colleges? I genuinely don't get it.
@@dynaspinner64 you have to understand the scale of hiring that large companies have to deal with. While many say the degree is useless since you’re self teaching anyway , the degree provides a quick proxy to understand that you have spent 4 years learning a relevant subject. If you wanted to apply for startups , you would often find this requirement disappear , because they are willing to value pure development skills over arbitrary credentials.
As a third year C.S student I can honestly tell anyone who is reading this that is it very useful to learn C.S. Especially if you wanna pick up new skills very quickly. The learning curve will be very easy for you because you will have foundational base computing knowledge and won't be confused by minor things. I would personally advise for people to get their C.S degrees. If they can't its okay though. All you need to do is be very VERY disciplined if you are planning to be self taught. The main point of college is to force you to work hard. If you can't force yourself to learn things then you are better off with a college tuition.
@@TVIDS123I hear what you're saying, but I don't think you need a degree to learn how to learn. If that's the point of a degree, I will say the price tag and time spent to "learn how to learn" was definitely not worth it. You don't need a degree to learn. Ideally, a degree should give you a leg-up in the competitive job market. That's the point. Am I wrong?
I was broke AF and didn't want 100K student loan debt so I decided to work in IT Operations instead of going to college. Now that I have saved up a good amount of money, I'm thinking of quitting my system administrator job and focusing on development and leet code to get into tech companies. I'm doing NeetCode now lol
> Bill Gates didn't go to college His parents were rich as fuck and were very well connected, what are you talking about lmao There no such a thing of a self-made billionaire It is really valuable to have an correct education, especially in times of economic turmoil
Agree! It was already bad that people think Bill Gates, Zuck, etc are “self-made” dropout, but now “influencers” are promoting education is not important due to them being “successful” (read: rich). Not talking about Neetcode but to those “influencers” doing dancing/prank/sh*t TikTok videos promoting education is not important! (I welcome anyone creating educational content! Tho I don’t really like the idea of educational 1-min tiktok video/shorts/reels where the content is too short and contexts are usually not provided properly)!
The problem is for average people, they will have to pay a lot of money when they graduate, they will have a big debt to the college they graduated from
Bill Gates was literally studying in Harvard and published research papers before dropping out. It is fair to assume the average person is no Bill Gates
So true lol. I could have taken extra classes in parallel programming, computer graphics, advanced database systems or some more statistic classes like multivariate data analysis etc as electives but nooooooo we have to do labs with regards learning chemistry formulas you will never use and will forget 1 week after the final
I don’t have to take any bio or chem at all, I am taking physics though but that’s actually kinda useful for programming depending on what you use it for
@@aidanbrown7137 EXACTLY! Then people wonder why there’s a “student debt” issue as well as a “cheating problem”. I bet you at least 20% of student debt is caused by bullsh** classes. “Well rounded student” says my academic advisor, more like a “well rounded source of income”
In software engineering bachelors we learn how to manage projects, how to create proper documentation (not only for code, but for the whole project, for tests, etc), the benefits of following a process quality control model, how to draw and improve processes, how to manage risks, resources, etc. Those things you wont learn in the job because most companies dont follow the best practices. Most companies just pretend to follow scrum by using the word "sprint", maybe they use kanban and that is it. Overall there is very little control of the resources, time required for the project, investment needed, etc. So it is good to learn this in college because it is very boring (most of us wont try to learn this on our own, so grades might be a good reason to force ourselves), even though it is super important.
My take is that do a solid STEM major and a CS minor. I mean most of the CS concepts can be self-taught via textbooks and courses anyway. Combine that with your domain knowledge, you will have a good prospects.
I agree. CS people need to realize that a CS degree is a toolkit, (most often) not a domain specialty, especially today. I did grad school in cognitive neuroscience before transitioning into industry DS and ML work. The mere fact that I can do actual stats, hypothesis testing, and read academic papers, put me a head and shoulder above those that can just code. There's a steep drop off on the ROI of specializing in CS concepts vs specializing in other domains. Learn to code. Learn some basic CS fundamentals. And then learn a domain which you can actually apply those skills in. Ad tech is not a specialty I'd put my career eggs into, which is why silicon valley is brutalizing the hiring market right now. A science is a specialty, I would, and have, put my career eggs into. I think the fact that so many devs have trouble coming up with ideas for portfolio projects speaks to this fundamental confusion. I have never had trouble coming up with project ideas because I have a well of cognitive neuroscience problems I can draw from and try to create a solution for.
Electrical or Mechanical engineering + CS is imba combo. As EE you will be able to learn enough CS to be a developer relatively quickly. Vice versa, developer would need years to learn EE and compete with you and that almost never happens. Plus, there are fields like Embedded and Systems programming where knowledge of hardware is essential or at least beneficial and as EE you already have years of advantage over someone who is pure CS.
@@IvanRandomDudeYeah I'll give you a thumbs up for that. I was good at coding reports, writing some multiplayer game logic, building some rapid development front ends in VB... but I can't code an application to route plumbing, load balance a bridge, pilot a missile, etc. I have to yield ground to those who really developed knowledge outside of basic data processing and click-menus.
Simple compare self-educated and electronics engineers. Both will be able to use the phone, but the second one will be able to repair a broken one or design a new one. Higher education is still a gatekeeper for many jobs. Jobs was a bad example as Wozniak was the person behind the Apple. Take an educated person out of the equation, and you will be left with the person who yells loudest to build a company. Find any data with a relation between success and education. Turning the number of successful people into percentages and successful people without education won't even be a statistical error.
I dropped out of college from a Physics BS(I was a senior too lol) and now work fulltime as an engineer. That being said, I put in A LOT of work to get where I am; In hindsight, a CS degree probably would have been easier.
I think 18 is way too young to decide and dedicate yourself to a 4 year degree. I would have probably hated coding if I took a CS degree. I actually fell in love with it once I was 24. It would make so much sense for me to pursue a degree now than at 18. But again at 24, I can just learn all of it myself
CS degree is not meant to create software developers but to create researchers in Computer science. Nowadays its become a trend that we get into web development just after college 😂.
The only reason web development has become a trend after college is because there are lots of offers, fast growth and people picture it as "simpler" (which really isn't always the case)
i go to a bottom level college and its pretty terrible the professors dont know the simplest concepts, we study useless analysis and algebra ICT terminology..etc and we barely even touch computers and when we do we code in pascal using code blocks, and most of my colleagues are just trying to get into a better college, yeah college is just not worth it
The value of college is mainly it gives you more guidance, more pressure (since you paid so much for it), but more valuable I'd say is peers that you learn from
I’ve got 4-5 yrs of exp and with the saturation in the market rn I can’t get past initial phone screens. I don’t have a degree and if you don’t stand out vs another candidate somehow academia trumps experience. There are just a lot of companies that aren’t tech companies that don’t know how to gauge talent so they’d rather see some external form of approval. I mean most recruiters look at your resume for less than a minute I suppose and they don’t have time to look through your portfolio projects and even if they did they don’t know what they’re looking at.
Listen guys, jokes aside, yes you can learn everything you need outside of college. Maybe even faster and better. YES companies STILL want the degree. Do not let stuff like this dissuade you. You will ALWAYS have more opportunities with a degree, ESPECIALLY in an economic downturn. Get degree.
Companies still want degrees for programming? I haven't entered the market yet and I have a degree, so I'm super curious if this is backed up by any real-world evidence. I hear conflicting thoughts on this from people who say it is vs it isn't
I think it depends on the person. If your goal is to work at a big company with lots of rules then you probably need a degree. No one is even asking me for a CV anymore for projects. If a company insists you need a degree to get the job done, that tells you a lot about their level of competence. Hiding behind degrees is very common. "We've always done it that way etc. I'm doing this for 20 years, so this is the only right way..."
Ah yes, all those "drop outs" with successful companies that come from unprecedented wealth are totally a good example of why college is a waste of time and a good comparison for the average person... You want to be in a senior/C-level position anywhere else other than silicon valley/startups? Good luck without a degree.Think from the perspective of a board trying to explain and justify to their shareholders (in a way the non-tech savvy shareholders will understand) why they have elected the self taught basement kid as CTO instead of the MBA with a tech background or CS major/masters. Same goes for senior roles in government positions, unless your skills are literally second to none. Which they aren't and won't ever be. He also uses Bill Gates as if he is the only successful business owner out there "The stuff he was going to learn in school, probably wouldn't have been super helpful for starting a company", ah yes, let's just gloss over every successful business owner with an MBA or Business/Law degree... Want a entry level dev job at a company? Sure, you can get in teaching yourself. But don't act like there is no value to a degree, especially in a world where everyone one is just collecting the same certs like they are infinity stones, because all the influences told them to.
If you look at the ROI for a computer science degree it's basically the only bachelor's college degree worth getting if you don't intend to go to grad school. From some of the stats I've seen it's better than many graduate level degrees as well. From my perspective the tradeoff isn't monetary potential as much as the time tradeoff, if you have an idea that you want to execute on and skip the college classes go ahead, but the college degree can set you apart if you're only in it for money from employers.
I learnt almost all the stuff I know about programming by myself, and college did help me a bit, but I don't know if I'd say it was worth the price I paid. But, I do think that I learnt a lot of soft skills while I was in college. Things such as handling different types of people, time management (mainly because each thing I do had a hard deadline), the connections I built there, the friends that I met there, and the like. I think those things really made it worth it for me.
The most valuable courses I took at university were my electives - business law, income tax preparation, some English composition courses (which helped me write technical documents later). My actual core Comp Sci courses? Pretty close to nothing. I never once ever re-opened the books I kept, just in case I ever needed to code up some fancy data structure or do some hardware device driver implementation. I did major in databases, and I suppose I leveraged SQL over the years. But I could have learned that without any university courses.
The biggest benefit of college is your fellow students, together with you, struggling on the same concepts. You feel less alone and more confident in your abilities as you realize everyone is in the same boat. Also, in the age of AI, CS creates a foundation upon which to more easily pivot when your field gets automated. That is because CS itself is foundational knowledge of the computer upon which all other knowledge is built. That being said, if you have a strong vision and discipline from the start, you will become successful with or without a piece of paper from University, but at 18 years old most need a system called college to expose them to that vision. Lastly, a degree forces you to learn things that are unpleasant and may or may not be useful in the future. Since we cannot tell the future, it helps to have a standardized system upon which to be told what to learn. This prevents the feeling of getting overwhelmed upon the millions of choices of what to learn in any given moment. Tuition is not worth it though.
This is the problem, when college or universities don't teach you important lessons. If you look or hear from another person, not in the US or West. You'll mostly hear them proud of their college or universities. Because it's positive for them. Especially if they get a high paying job. But your question would be, "But what about those people who become successful after dropping out?" Don't forget your circumstances are different. If I have to give a tip or something to ponder to anyone. Don't chase for the diploma or certificate. Chase for the knowledge. Whether it is college, universities, bootcamp, internship, drop out, etc. If something is not giving you more knowledge, go to the other one. Don't be stuck on something that won't give you anything.
I'm self taught and landed my self a high paying job as a backend dev (with a bit of frontend). Go to college and study Comp Sci. I couldn't do that as I'd already done a bachelors and masters of arts in an unrelated field. I regret not being able to study computer science at uni. I had to work 10 times harder than Comp Sci grads just to get my foot in the door. I've also straight up been rejected for many jobs for not having a degree in Computer Science. That will continue to be the case even after I have 10 years of experience (I have been told this by my co-workers who have more experience). I had to do 2 years of no-lifing and learning whilst working, building out websites and products for small mom and pop shops in my free time, in order to get a decent job (not working as an email developer or getting an apprenticeship). If you have the money and have not been to Uni, go do computer science at university. It sucks for self taught devs getting their first gig.
As a self taught, whether you should go to university or try for yourself depends on your situation. Whats great about IT is that anyone, if you are good enough, can get a job. I made it as a self taught in the midst of the awful economy we are in. I know several people with a Bachelors struggling to find jobs. How is your situation? Can you afford college? Do you have people relying on you economically? Kids, wife? Do you know someone that can help you get that first job? Is your interest genuine, or is it just for money? In your current job, can you gradually transition into tech by taking different tasks? Etc.
Web dev was really a self taught job to begin with. The Internet was made by everyone to access it. Most majority of cs allum figured how to make a business on the web bc back in the days school didn't teach web dev bc no internet didn't exist.
I understand it's isn't easy for colleges to make a curriculum that is so dynamic that gets updated in every one year or two and also it isn't a "CUP OF TEA FOR EVERYONE" to teach 40-100 students and make them all fundamentals Clear with ease But the Main Problem is Colleges don't even give a solid try that we can respect , Ok Data Structures and Algorithms are the Most Diversed Concept and One of Most Valuable Knowledge but What they don't teach - What is Computing actually - How to Collaborate - Some Valuable basics like : Git & Linux
As self taught I’ve gotten myself to a point where I can build and deploy full stack apps. Can’t even solve leetcode easy though and can’t get past resume filters so GG
I suggest you start reading books. I would highly recommend Grokking Algorithms: An Illustrated Guide for Programmers and Other Curious People Book by Aditya Y. Bhargava
UA-cam is my college, I learn from teachers who have a reputation of being a good teacher on the line, I don't learn from certifications or colleges who make money from the failures of their students. It's immoral to make things difficult so you can profit off it when you know people need what you have.
my family grew up in poverty. my brother has used nothing but financial aid and is in his third year for computer science degree. he hasnt had to pay a penny and he doesnt owe anything. all these people talking about 100k student debt i dont understand. maybe other colleges cost more
I always thought about collage as a path you take IF you don't have plan, but if you do have plan why waste 4-8 years learning stuff you will not use or need unless you are forced to
I actually am enjoying the theories I'm learning in college. It's not just about application but learning what I'm actually applying. The theory can be so nuanced that many do not know that they don't even know it. But it's such an integral part of being a good computer scientist that it's so critical.
I personally feel like if all you want to do is software engineering, you can possibly get all the stuff you want without college. Do know that getting a job without a degree is orders of magnitude harder. However, if you want to do computer science, then a college degree would absolutely be required.
tl;dr if your family is millionaire and broad-visioned and you think you'd happen to be the right person in the right place and time, college is probably a waste of time.
Can someone please give me personal examples of how a college degree for programming has been beneficial for you or someone you know in the field? I'm trying to justify the time and money spent on college, and I just can't do it lol. On the other hand, if you don't think college was worth it for programming, please share as well
this is what I'd say on youtube, but buy is it not true. Of course college causes more good than harm, the discussion is if its worth the price, and the economic and opportunity costs are just too high. You said it yourself, a self taught is not gonna have spent 4 years studing, but if they did they would be much better professionals than any just grad
No, that's terrible.. So, youngs kids will learn web development before going to college and even parents will force them to learn it too. So, it's going to give them a advantage from other candidates. It's going to be oversaturated. Kids needs to stop thinking web dev is the only cs job today even Neetcode explained it in own video.
If someone wants to start a software/AI company without a bachelor’s degree, I would have trouble trusting them since they lack that foundational knowledge that universities have basically standardized for CS students. You also learn a lot in college by being around many people of different disciplines. It takes a lot of faith in someone to trust that their self-taught journey has been done correctly to the point of making a tech company and maintaining it. A lot of investors feel that way too. A degree is a requirement for a lot of them, and even if you just want a job when the economy gets rough (or when AI replaces more front end developers and people who are at the bootcamp level), it’s very difficult to compete with degree-holders. If you want to learn AI/ML and get a tech job as that kind of specialist, you realistically will need AT LEAST a BS with several years of experience, or a master’s/PhD. Those kinds of jobs will future-proof you for a while more than likely, but it’s far more work and complexity than just learning how to be a react developer (which seems to be the typical goal for the bulk of self-taught devs). To clarify, I don’t believe college is perfect nor that it is for everyone.
Same arguments could be made for "why go to college to learn anything when you got Google?" There's a reason people play chess/go/random trivia aka Jeopardy in person: the halo effect and status. Yes, networking is a skill that can be acquired through Google, but mastering it to connect with others well takes a lifetime. Do not fall for the learned helplessness that will eventually happen with the prevalence of AI. We are powerful and capable together. We are.
if you can already do something, don't go to college. If you can't, consider college if it will teach you what you need to know. The top 1% of programmers won't need college, the other 99% will probably find it useful
You're like Jonathan Blow's shy little brother. He's polite, but stern, and doesn't hold back on essence, with the inevitable "civilization is doomed to become the Church of Galactic Spirit" slam dunk. You, on the other hand, will make sure to mention 3 times that "there's always a reason for everything" and how you "don't consider soydev to be a simpler skillset, it actually can be very taxing cognitively to develop a good soy system".
On topic, we're talking stats here. Let's look at the problem in 3D: intellect, backing and education. Can you create a startup with an IQ of 60, having been brought up by wolves and finding yourself in the middle of Tanzania? Probably not. Can you create a startup with an IQ of a hyper-ape, growing up in a top 0.01%, educated by a super smart father and with a couple degrees? Elon, sir, please put your hand down. In this system of coordinates, being without a degree means relying purely on intellect and support. If you're in the top 1% intellectually with a 100M endowment, you don't need college. Where's that line? Dear aspiring devs, the line is at 100%. NONE of you need college. In fact, LLMs are going to destroy software development in two months, so you better get busy with your amazing ChatGPT wrapper startup, like, yesterday!
@1:23 : I have an engine that is all written in one 200K + line file . And zero people have anything useful to say besides: 1. Use an IDE 2. Break it up into multiple files But effectively , the file is structured so that it IS and IDE and IS a FILE SYSTEM . I just implement the concept of an IDE and FILE SYSTEM within one large text file .
False. Not everybody is self-taught. A self-taught is basically someone who learn *most* of the subject on their own. If you learn programming in college and then later learn framework, I wouldn't consider you a self-taught because you've already have the foundation compare to someone who learn all of it on their own. Also if you went to college and learn programming ,etc before joining any programming related class, then you're considered as self-taught. Look at Tech With Tim, he is mostly self-taught. At the end of the day, it's about having a continuous learning mindset whether you're in college or not, which we don't see much in college because they're too dependent on college to teach them and then later when they graduate they become stagnant.
Leetcode is a complete waste of time. It's irrelevant to anything besides job interviews. It's a poison to tech and engineering communities. Goal post will move: Next is Chinese mid autumn riddles, you shud burn your college diploma, forget leet and learn about Chinese mid autumn riddles instead. The whole Leet thing, it speaks volumes of the excess still exist in tech.
![[UA] NAVI vs MOUZ | BO5 | IEM Rio 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CMBYk0cbGoA/mqdefault.jpg)
It seems like a lot of college grads have to become self taught after finishing their degree, as they didn't get a ton of real world dev experience during school.
This is me, and I agree with you. But I also need to Continue to do that to stay competitive as a developer. I learned C++ and theory in school and have had to continue to learn react and distributed systems in real life. Each job asks something different and recruiters key word search and don't realize when javascript, react, vue are all the same thing in most ways practically. Continuous learning is the skillset of getting the degree and doing the job. You can skip the learning step by learning yourself but continuous learning and practice are in the job description.
Yep, intern on my team only learned some Python for scripting and data mining, and barely anything else. I couldn't believe how awful his CS degree was, and it's from a high tier school.
Spot on
@@coherentpanda7115Well, what did you expect him to know that he didn’t? Genuine question
As the market becomes more saturated, the barrier of entry will rise. This is the natural progression for all careers.
Especially fields like software dev which are not as niche or hard to enter as people in the field like to think. I was in grad school for cognitive neuroscience before transitioning into industry ML work. It is far harder to enter the sciences than software development. Unless you seriously specialize and differentiate yourself, most software devs are quite easy to replace and have the pick of the litter. Principle researchers, not so much.
@@hamm8934Front end yeah sure. I don't think you are referring to back end stuffs. It can be extremely extremely broad and overwhelming
@@perelium-x It is still easier to enter then let's say law or medicine. In order to become a lawyer for example you would need 4 years of school and to pass the bar or whatever it is called (I am not from USA). In SWE the only barrier is knowledge meaning that more people can enter the industry quicker. Won't even talk about medicine, it's like almost decade of education before you are even considered to be a doctor. When it comes to barriers of entry SWE is pretty much on the same level as many trades. Maybe even easier than some trades since many trades require at least somebody else to mentor you (I don't know anybody who became electrician by watching videos on Udemy and UA-cam but I know hundreds who became developers by doing so)
@@hamm8934That's because businesses don't care about spaghetti code or technical debt, as long as you can "write" React. Architecting good software is no easy feat. Don't even get me started on the shit Python code you AI/ML folks write.
@@perelium-x Maybe 10 years ago I would agree with this, but front end nowadays has become complicated in a lot of ways due to websites basically becoming full size software applications. The days of a little dev shop churning out simple Wordpress sites are about over, and now front end devs (which are mostly full-stack these days) have to create more than CSS and some html tags, building fully interactive features, bringing in data and managing it without breaking stuff can be pretty hard. And as these apps age, maintainability is going to become a big area of opportunity, as someone will need to know legacy React, NextJS, and .net projects.
I failed CS in college but now a working programmer.
IMHO the root of all that college/uni related discussions is that it's quite often presented to people as college/uni is the mandatory step before you get into real life/job.
For me it's pretty common to hear things like "you either get your bachelors/masters/etc. or never become competent worker in your industry"
And then people get into the college and start asking themselves "why in the world would i need to learn that, that and that" (at least in my country).
I can't underestimate what uni gave me while I was studying calculus, analytical geometry, topology, linear algebra, group theory, complex analysis and many more challenging stuff during my couple of years in university.
But when I got my first job as a software engineer during my 2nd year of uni there came an understanding that like 90%+ of stuff from uni might be never used again.
In terms of getting the most useful information for getting and succeeding in a job, uni is not a great option in my opinion. (if we ignore the fact that require cs degree needed as some formal requirement)
However, the good uni gives you strong fundamentals like all that maths/general computer sciense stuff and social connections with future software engineers.
I think I would never try to get into those subjects mentioned earlier if being self-taught and even landing some good job.
Fundamentals thing is like when you solve leetcode problems you start to notice at the job if you accidentally use O(n^2) code when you can use something better. But in case of uni it's your perspective on many and many things around you is what is being changed for the better.
And when it comes to connections with fellow engineers or companies internships from uni, it just makes things easier if you start your CS path as some normie without rich parents and anyone close to you who is related to the industry.
SWE is better for this reason.
It feels weird to give a serious reaction to a comedy show clip, but there's always a little bit of truth in every joke
edit: maybe i was confusing in the video, but i'm not trying to make a recommendation for or against college. You have to make a decision based on your situation. I just tried to give some pros / cons for each, as i see them.
I completely agree with you. Everybody is self taught. I am currently in 4th sem. I have learnt entire DSA from youtube. Whatever web/app technologies I know, I have learnt from youtube. Even for the exams majority of my batchmates watch video lectures before exam to get good grades. This is the reality!!
@@satyamjha68 False. There are people who are purely self-taught. The thing is though, self-taught is not really the end goal, the end goal is to obtain a lifelong learning mindset doesn't matter if you're in school or not and I would say almost self-taught people already have that mindset but a lot of those who went to college are just there to get a degree and then they become stagnant. Not all those people who went to college are lifelong learner. Luckily, you have that mindset (hopefully) but most people don't. I have a similar experience as yours although I took cs minor and learn a lot of things on my on when it comes to software engineering and math related.
@@jectory I agree with you. You are correct majority of people don't have learning mindset.
People look at Gates without realizing how extremely wealthy and well-connected his family was. Yes, he is incredibly smart, but he also had private education, tutoring and access to computers in the late 60s, early 70s through his school. I would recommend those people to read Paul Allen's autobiography, but I imagine those types of people only want confirmation bias, so it's pointless. Gates and Allen knew each other before Harvard, but they did meet a few people who played a role in Microsoft's success at Harvard, like the electrical engineer (forget his name, but think he helped with the Altair BASIC or something) and Steve Ballmer. I'd be surprised if boot camps are tenable for the next few years even as market improves. There's too many CS grads that are unemployed because of hiring freezes. The problem with bootcamps is a lot of them charge a shit ton too. At that point, just get your degree. If you can't get a SWE job, at least your degree is useful for pivoting.
Right. On the opposite spectrum from how Bill Gates was raised and supported, you have people like me who had no support, hardly any guidance, etc. I hate to play the victim, but I feel like if I had proper guidance growing up things likely would have been better overall for me. Just being honest. For example, if I had a dad that taught me about saving or retirement, etc., then perhaps I would have valued and/or understood the importance of it MUCH earlier, etc
Bill Gates mom Mary Maxwell Gates worked on IBM board of directors. Which she convinced them to invest into her sons company Microsoft. Yes, Bill was talented and hard working but he had a ridiculous advantage compared to other people.
Bootcampers or self taught people claiming "self taught " LMAO
They don't realize majority of the work in university involves you teaching yourself by watching UA-cam. How many people actually watched their algorithms lectures via their university and not watch Abdul Bari here. Thats why neetcode at @7:55 makes so much sense
Abdul Bari: the GOAT
self-taught usually means figuring out what needs to be learned by yourself and then learning those things by yourself. cs majors and bootcampers generally aren't considered self-taught since they need someone to tell them what to learn, when to learn it, etc. that's why neetcode included "in a sense" in his outro.
So basically this means that the job market is pay-to-work. If you can learn everything that someone in CS program can AND you do it, BUT you chose not to out yourself in debt to the government, you don’t get a job whereas the one who is hooked to the government does. That is what the job market in the US has boiled down to for certain jobs as the barrier to entry has gotten lower
Then why pay for college? I really don't get it. Just for a degree? Why do companies value degrees more if you are mostly self taught even in colleges? I genuinely don't get it.
@@dynaspinner64 you have to understand the scale of hiring that large companies have to deal with. While many say the degree is useless since you’re self teaching anyway , the degree provides a quick proxy to understand that you have spent 4 years learning a relevant subject. If you wanted to apply for startups , you would often find this requirement disappear , because they are willing to value pure development skills over arbitrary credentials.
As a third year C.S student I can honestly tell anyone who is reading this that is it very useful to learn C.S. Especially if you wanna pick up new skills very quickly. The learning curve will be very easy for you because you will have foundational base computing knowledge and won't be confused by minor things. I would personally advise for people to get their C.S degrees. If they can't its okay though. All you need to do is be very VERY disciplined if you are planning to be self taught. The main point of college is to force you to work hard. If you can't force yourself to learn things then you are better off with a college tuition.
I too would recommend getting a CS degree. The degree teaches you how to learn, which then allows you to learn anything in CS by yourself.
@@TVIDS123exactly
@@TVIDS123I hear what you're saying, but I don't think you need a degree to learn how to learn. If that's the point of a degree, I will say the price tag and time spent to "learn how to learn" was definitely not worth it. You don't need a degree to learn. Ideally, a degree should give you a leg-up in the competitive job market. That's the point. Am I wrong?
@@TVIDS123College puts you into debt and 4 years of wasting your time
I was broke AF and didn't want 100K student loan debt so I decided to work in IT Operations instead of going to college. Now that I have saved up a good amount of money, I'm thinking of quitting my system administrator job and focusing on development and leet code to get into tech companies. I'm doing NeetCode now lol
> Bill Gates didn't go to college
His parents were rich as fuck and were very well connected, what are you talking about lmao
There no such a thing of a self-made billionaire
It is really valuable to have an correct education, especially in times of economic turmoil
Yeah exactly citing the top 0.000001% elite outliers as a reason to dip out of college is silly to me.
Agree!
It was already bad that people think Bill Gates, Zuck, etc are “self-made” dropout, but now “influencers” are promoting education is not important due to them being “successful” (read: rich). Not talking about Neetcode but to those “influencers” doing dancing/prank/sh*t TikTok videos promoting education is not important! (I welcome anyone creating educational content! Tho I don’t really like the idea of educational 1-min tiktok video/shorts/reels where the content is too short and contexts are usually not provided properly)!
The problem is for average people, they will have to pay a lot of money when they graduate, they will have a big debt to the college they graduated from
Bill Gates was literally studying in Harvard and published research papers before dropping out. It is fair to assume the average person is no Bill Gates
he still did not need a degree, so the video is valid
Colleges need to stop requiring CS majors to take 4 semesters of BIO/CHM
So true lol. I could have taken extra classes in parallel programming, computer graphics, advanced database systems or some more statistic classes like multivariate data analysis etc as electives but nooooooo we have to do labs with regards learning chemistry formulas you will never use and will forget 1 week after the final
I don’t have to take any bio or chem at all, I am taking physics though but that’s actually kinda useful for programming depending on what you use it for
@@aidanbrown7137 EXACTLY! Then people wonder why there’s a “student debt” issue as well as a “cheating problem”. I bet you at least 20% of student debt is caused by bullsh** classes. “Well rounded student” says my academic advisor, more like a “well rounded source of income”
@@gewdvibes lucky you! Physics does sound reasonable depending on if you want to utilize Physics in a Programming paradigm
In software engineering bachelors we learn how to manage projects, how to create proper documentation (not only for code, but for the whole project, for tests, etc), the benefits of following a process quality control model, how to draw and improve processes, how to manage risks, resources, etc. Those things you wont learn in the job because most companies dont follow the best practices. Most companies just pretend to follow scrum by using the word "sprint", maybe they use kanban and that is it. Overall there is very little control of the resources, time required for the project, investment needed, etc. So it is good to learn this in college because it is very boring (most of us wont try to learn this on our own, so grades might be a good reason to force ourselves), even though it is super important.
What was your software engineering textbook?
@@thatoneuser8600 the main book about software engineering is called SWEBOK
My take is that do a solid STEM major and a CS minor. I mean most of the CS concepts can be self-taught via textbooks and courses anyway. Combine that with your domain knowledge, you will have a good prospects.
I agree. CS people need to realize that a CS degree is a toolkit, (most often) not a domain specialty, especially today. I did grad school in cognitive neuroscience before transitioning into industry DS and ML work. The mere fact that I can do actual stats, hypothesis testing, and read academic papers, put me a head and shoulder above those that can just code. There's a steep drop off on the ROI of specializing in CS concepts vs specializing in other domains. Learn to code. Learn some basic CS fundamentals. And then learn a domain which you can actually apply those skills in. Ad tech is not a specialty I'd put my career eggs into, which is why silicon valley is brutalizing the hiring market right now. A science is a specialty, I would, and have, put my career eggs into.
I think the fact that so many devs have trouble coming up with ideas for portfolio projects speaks to this fundamental confusion. I have never had trouble coming up with project ideas because I have a well of cognitive neuroscience problems I can draw from and try to create a solution for.
I completely agree. I have a master's of science in mechanical engineering and applied physics and a bachelor in CS, and working in SW
Electrical or Mechanical engineering + CS is imba combo. As EE you will be able to learn enough CS to be a developer relatively quickly. Vice versa, developer would need years to learn EE and compete with you and that almost never happens. Plus, there are fields like Embedded and Systems programming where knowledge of hardware is essential or at least beneficial and as EE you already have years of advantage over someone who is pure CS.
@@IvanRandomDudeYeah I'll give you a thumbs up for that. I was good at coding reports, writing some multiplayer game logic, building some rapid development front ends in VB... but I can't code an application to route plumbing, load balance a bridge, pilot a missile, etc. I have to yield ground to those who really developed knowledge outside of basic data processing and click-menus.
those college drop outs also had hundreds of thousands in support
Yeah, Gates's family was in the top .001% wealthy, and Zuck was up there too (his dad is a dentist, and Zuck went to a private school before Harvard).
Simple compare self-educated and electronics engineers. Both will be able to use the phone, but the second one will be able to repair a broken one or design a new one. Higher education is still a gatekeeper for many jobs. Jobs was a bad example as Wozniak was the person behind the Apple. Take an educated person out of the equation, and you will be left with the person who yells loudest to build a company. Find any data with a relation between success and education. Turning the number of successful people into percentages and successful people without education won't even be a statistical error.
I dropped out of college from a Physics BS(I was a senior too lol) and now work fulltime as an engineer. That being said, I put in A LOT of work to get where I am; In hindsight, a CS degree probably would have been easier.
"In a scense, everybody is a self-thaught, whether you have a degree or not" - current NEET
bro has multi-million dollar business...
I think 18 is way too young to decide and dedicate yourself to a 4 year degree. I would have probably hated coding if I took a CS degree. I actually fell in love with it once I was 24. It would make so much sense for me to pursue a degree now than at 18. But again at 24, I can just learn all of it myself
CS degree is not meant to create software developers but to create researchers in Computer science.
Nowadays its become a trend that we get into web development just after college 😂.
Developing is where the demand is at, thats why so many of us ends up there. Its not a trend
The only reason web development has become a trend after college is because there are lots of offers, fast growth and people picture it as "simpler" (which really isn't always the case)
First sentence is definitely true.
I'm a Senior Applications Developer of over 10 years and am a community college dropout.
i go to a bottom level college and its pretty terrible the professors dont know the simplest concepts, we study useless analysis and algebra ICT terminology..etc and we barely even touch computers and when we do we code in pascal using code blocks, and most of my colleagues are just trying to get into a better college, yeah college is just not worth it
My friends at a good university says the same. The teachers gives out tasks, the learning is all up to him
The value of college is mainly it gives you more guidance, more pressure (since you paid so much for it), but more valuable I'd say is peers that you learn from
I’ve got 4-5 yrs of exp and with the saturation in the market rn I can’t get past initial phone screens. I don’t have a degree and if you don’t stand out vs another candidate somehow academia trumps experience. There are just a lot of companies that aren’t tech companies that don’t know how to gauge talent so they’d rather see some external form of approval. I mean most recruiters look at your resume for less than a minute I suppose and they don’t have time to look through your portfolio projects and even if they did they don’t know what they’re looking at.
Don't worry, things are not much different even if you have a degree.
@@nutcracker6746 I guess that makes me feel better… idk honestly. Gotta love this industry lately
Listen guys, jokes aside, yes you can learn everything you need outside of college. Maybe even faster and better. YES companies STILL want the degree. Do not let stuff like this dissuade you. You will ALWAYS have more opportunities with a degree, ESPECIALLY in an economic downturn. Get degree.
Companies still want degrees for programming? I haven't entered the market yet and I have a degree, so I'm super curious if this is backed up by any real-world evidence. I hear conflicting thoughts on this from people who say it is vs it isn't
Absolutely. Specially in 3rd world countries
Amen on that last statement in your video.
I think it depends on the person. If your goal is to work at a big company with lots of rules then you probably need a degree. No one is even asking me for a CV anymore for projects. If a company insists you need a degree to get the job done, that tells you a lot about their level of competence. Hiding behind degrees is very common. "We've always done it that way etc. I'm doing this for 20 years, so this is the only right way..."
Ah yes, all those "drop outs" with successful companies that come from unprecedented wealth are totally a good example of why college is a waste of time and a good comparison for the average person... You want to be in a senior/C-level position anywhere else other than silicon valley/startups? Good luck without a degree.Think from the perspective of a board trying to explain and justify to their shareholders (in a way the non-tech savvy shareholders will understand) why they have elected the self taught basement kid as CTO instead of the MBA with a tech background or CS major/masters. Same goes for senior roles in government positions, unless your skills are literally second to none. Which they aren't and won't ever be.
He also uses Bill Gates as if he is the only successful business owner out there "The stuff he was going to learn in school, probably wouldn't have been super helpful for starting a company", ah yes, let's just gloss over every successful business owner with an MBA or Business/Law degree...
Want a entry level dev job at a company? Sure, you can get in teaching yourself. But don't act like there is no value to a degree, especially in a world where everyone one is just collecting the same certs like they are infinity stones, because all the influences told them to.
If you look at the ROI for a computer science degree it's basically the only bachelor's college degree worth getting if you don't intend to go to grad school. From some of the stats I've seen it's better than many graduate level degrees as well. From my perspective the tradeoff isn't monetary potential as much as the time tradeoff, if you have an idea that you want to execute on and skip the college classes go ahead, but the college degree can set you apart if you're only in it for money from employers.
Fking true 🤦♂ 7:55
at the end of the day you're the one that did the learning for yourself, so yeah, makes sense
@@sebastienpautot I think CS is overkill for software engineering. I prefer SWE bachelors.
I learnt almost all the stuff I know about programming by myself, and college did help me a bit, but I don't know if I'd say it was worth the price I paid. But, I do think that I learnt a lot of soft skills while I was in college. Things such as handling different types of people, time management (mainly because each thing I do had a hard deadline), the connections I built there, the friends that I met there, and the like. I think those things really made it worth it for me.
The most valuable courses I took at university were my electives - business law, income tax preparation, some English composition courses (which helped me write technical documents later). My actual core Comp Sci courses? Pretty close to nothing. I never once ever re-opened the books I kept, just in case I ever needed to code up some fancy data structure or do some hardware device driver implementation. I did major in databases, and I suppose I leveraged SQL over the years. But I could have learned that without any university courses.
Neet also have a point, you don't really need to go to some expensive school. If you are going to school. Go to where you will learn, actually.
The biggest benefit of college is your fellow students, together with you, struggling on the same concepts. You feel less alone and more confident in your abilities as you realize everyone is in the same boat. Also, in the age of AI, CS creates a foundation upon which to more easily pivot when your field gets automated. That is because CS itself is foundational knowledge of the computer upon which all other knowledge is built. That being said, if you have a strong vision and discipline from the start, you will become successful with or without a piece of paper from University, but at 18 years old most need a system called college to expose them to that vision. Lastly, a degree forces you to learn things that are unpleasant and may or may not be useful in the future. Since we cannot tell the future, it helps to have a standardized system upon which to be told what to learn. This prevents the feeling of getting overwhelmed upon the millions of choices of what to learn in any given moment. Tuition is not worth it though.
This is the problem, when college or universities don't teach you important lessons.
If you look or hear from another person, not in the US or West. You'll mostly hear them proud of their college or universities.
Because it's positive for them. Especially if they get a high paying job.
But your question would be, "But what about those people who become successful after dropping out?" Don't forget your circumstances are different.
If I have to give a tip or something to ponder to anyone. Don't chase for the diploma or certificate. Chase for the knowledge.
Whether it is college, universities, bootcamp, internship, drop out, etc. If something is not giving you more knowledge, go to the other one.
Don't be stuck on something that won't give you anything.
I'm self taught and landed my self a high paying job as a backend dev (with a bit of frontend). Go to college and study Comp Sci. I couldn't do that as I'd already done a bachelors and masters of arts in an unrelated field.
I regret not being able to study computer science at uni. I had to work 10 times harder than Comp Sci grads just to get my foot in the door. I've also straight up been rejected for many jobs for not having a degree in Computer Science. That will continue to be the case even after I have 10 years of experience (I have been told this by my co-workers who have more experience).
I had to do 2 years of no-lifing and learning whilst working, building out websites and products for small mom and pop shops in my free time, in order to get a decent job (not working as an email developer or getting an apprenticeship).
If you have the money and have not been to Uni, go do computer science at university. It sucks for self taught devs getting their first gig.
similar path - just want to add to this that lots of people like us also just don't succeed.
college is easier and higher rate of success
As a self taught, whether you should go to university or try for yourself depends on your situation. Whats great about IT is that anyone, if you are good enough, can get a job.
I made it as a self taught in the midst of the awful economy we are in. I know several people with a Bachelors struggling to find jobs.
How is your situation? Can you afford college? Do you have people relying on you economically? Kids, wife? Do you know someone that can help you get that first job? Is your interest genuine, or is it just for money? In your current job, can you gradually transition into tech by taking different tasks? Etc.
Web dev was really a self taught job to begin with.
The Internet was made by everyone to access it. Most majority of cs allum figured how to make a business on the web bc back in the days school didn't teach web dev bc no internet didn't exist.
I understand it's isn't easy for colleges to make a curriculum that is so dynamic that gets updated in every one year or two and also it isn't a
"CUP OF TEA FOR EVERYONE"
to teach 40-100 students and make them all fundamentals Clear with ease
But the Main Problem is Colleges don't even give a solid try that we can respect , Ok Data Structures and Algorithms are the Most Diversed Concept and One of Most Valuable Knowledge but What they don't teach
- What is Computing actually
- How to Collaborate
- Some Valuable basics like : Git & Linux
As self taught I’ve gotten myself to a point where I can build and deploy full stack apps. Can’t even solve leetcode easy though and can’t get past resume filters so GG
Means your halfway there so go grind leetcode and make that resume better .
I suggest you start reading books. I would highly recommend Grokking Algorithms: An Illustrated Guide for Programmers and Other Curious People
Book by Aditya Y. Bhargava
It's a proof that filters work. Good.
@@rottoncookies1292 yup, taking coursera’s algorithms 1 & 2 to start
@@vitalyl1327 who could have guessed!
Hey, I have finally made it into Amazon! I will start delivering parcels tomorrow at 4:30am.
1:47 "programmers don't like helping others they like correcting other ppl", wrong programmers actually do...wait a minute dang it you trapped me.
IMO, this advice is scary good
UA-cam is my college, I learn from teachers who have a reputation of being a good teacher on the line, I don't learn from certifications or colleges who make money from the failures of their students. It's immoral to make things difficult so you can profit off it when you know people need what you have.
"Programmers don't like helping others, they like correcting others" - Neetcode 2024.
I will forever criticize my current CS program for all of the courses consisting entirely of crappy powerpoint lectures and 2 exams.
my family grew up in poverty. my brother has used nothing but financial aid and is in his third year for computer science degree. he hasnt had to pay a penny and he doesnt owe anything. all these people talking about 100k student debt i dont understand. maybe other colleges cost more
Loved the video ❤❤❤
I always thought about collage as a path you take IF you don't have plan, but if you do have plan why waste 4-8 years learning stuff you will not use or need unless you are forced to
I actually am enjoying the theories I'm learning in college. It's not just about application but learning what I'm actually applying. The theory can be so nuanced that many do not know that they don't even know it. But it's such an integral part of being a good computer scientist that it's so critical.
I personally feel like if all you want to do is software engineering, you can possibly get all the stuff you want without college. Do know that getting a job without a degree is orders of magnitude harder. However, if you want to do computer science, then a college degree would absolutely be required.
I learned to shuckle fat grunts in college, checkmate Gates.
I'm seeing more and more job openings demanding a CS degree.
That's bc HR wrote it... HR doesn't know CS so they're added a lot of random cs skills that they think a average cs grad can master all that skills
tl;dr if your family is millionaire and broad-visioned and you think you'd happen to be the right person in the right place and time, college is probably a waste of time.
First, also ly Neetcode :)
Bro, a lot of programmers are also becoming obsolete.
its funny i just rewatched the show few weeks ago
I am confused are you totaly against of college or you support it?
I'm not making a recommendation to other people. Just giving some pros and cons of each. I'm personally happy that I got a 4 year degree.
Can someone please give me personal examples of how a college degree for programming has been beneficial for you or someone you know in the field? I'm trying to justify the time and money spent on college, and I just can't do it lol. On the other hand, if you don't think college was worth it for programming, please share as well
this is what I'd say on youtube, but buy is it not true. Of course college causes more good than harm, the discussion is if its worth the price, and the economic and opportunity costs are just too high.
You said it yourself, a self taught is not gonna have spent 4 years studing, but if they did they would be much better professionals than any just grad
did you get your capital one internship from participating in the WSU Hackathon?
I think now colleges should now give a 6 months of internship experience in web development as a CS degree.
No, that's terrible..
So, youngs kids will learn web development before going to college and even parents will force them to learn it too. So, it's going to give them a advantage from other candidates.
It's going to be oversaturated.
Kids needs to stop thinking web dev is the only cs job today even Neetcode explained it in own video.
If someone wants to start a software/AI company without a bachelor’s degree, I would have trouble trusting them since they lack that foundational knowledge that universities have basically standardized for CS students. You also learn a lot in college by being around many people of different disciplines. It takes a lot of faith in someone to trust that their self-taught journey has been done correctly to the point of making a tech company and maintaining it. A lot of investors feel that way too. A degree is a requirement for a lot of them, and even if you just want a job when the economy gets rough (or when AI replaces more front end developers and people who are at the bootcamp level), it’s very difficult to compete with degree-holders. If you want to learn AI/ML and get a tech job as that kind of specialist, you realistically will need AT LEAST a BS with several years of experience, or a master’s/PhD. Those kinds of jobs will future-proof you for a while more than likely, but it’s far more work and complexity than just learning how to be a react developer (which seems to be the typical goal for the bulk of self-taught devs). To clarify, I don’t believe college is perfect nor that it is for everyone.
Irrelevant take. For example, Redis was created by a self-taught guy with no degree of any kind and software companies had 0 issues using it.
Do you have some recommendations on c++ udemy courses for absolute beginners?
Same arguments could be made for "why go to college to learn anything when you got Google?" There's a reason people play chess/go/random trivia aka Jeopardy in person: the halo effect and status. Yes, networking is a skill that can be acquired through Google, but mastering it to connect with others well takes a lifetime.
Do not fall for the learned helplessness that will eventually happen with the prevalence of AI. We are powerful and capable together. We are.
if you can already do something, don't go to college. If you can't, consider college if it will teach you what you need to know. The top 1% of programmers won't need college, the other 99% will probably find it useful
You're like Jonathan Blow's shy little brother.
He's polite, but stern, and doesn't hold back on essence, with the inevitable "civilization is doomed to become the Church of Galactic Spirit" slam dunk.
You, on the other hand, will make sure to mention 3 times that "there's always a reason for everything" and how you "don't consider soydev to be a simpler skillset, it actually can be very taxing cognitively to develop a good soy system".
On topic, we're talking stats here.
Let's look at the problem in 3D: intellect, backing and education.
Can you create a startup with an IQ of 60, having been brought up by wolves and finding yourself in the middle of Tanzania? Probably not.
Can you create a startup with an IQ of a hyper-ape, growing up in a top 0.01%, educated by a super smart father and with a couple degrees? Elon, sir, please put your hand down.
In this system of coordinates, being without a degree means relying purely on intellect and support.
If you're in the top 1% intellectually with a 100M endowment, you don't need college.
Where's that line?
Dear aspiring devs, the line is at 100%. NONE of you need college. In fact, LLMs are going to destroy software development in two months, so you better get busy with your amazing ChatGPT wrapper startup, like, yesterday!
@1:23 : I have an engine that is all written in one 200K + line file . And zero people have anything useful to say besides:
1. Use an IDE
2. Break it up into multiple files
But effectively , the file is structured so that it IS and IDE and IS a FILE SYSTEM .
I just implement the concept of an IDE and FILE SYSTEM within one large text file .
I need it for my visa.
based take
Bruh programming is obsolete in programming these days. This is old news
False. Not everybody is self-taught. A self-taught is basically someone who learn *most* of the subject on their own. If you learn programming in college and then later learn framework, I wouldn't consider you a self-taught because you've already have the foundation compare to someone who learn all of it on their own. Also if you went to college and learn programming ,etc before joining any programming related class, then you're considered as self-taught. Look at Tech With Tim, he is mostly self-taught. At the end of the day, it's about having a continuous learning mindset whether you're in college or not, which we don't see much in college because they're too dependent on college to teach them and then later when they graduate they become stagnant.
Leetcode is a complete waste of time. It's irrelevant to anything besides job interviews. It's a poison to tech and engineering communities. Goal post will move: Next is Chinese mid autumn riddles, you shud burn your college diploma, forget leet and learn about Chinese mid autumn riddles instead. The whole Leet thing, it speaks volumes of the excess still exist in tech.
“Everybody is self taught”…. Uhm no. Only people with no or a crappy education say that.