Just want to point out, the bugs infesting the tree in the desert that come roiling out when the Stranger blows it up by accident are not cockroaches, they're stag beetles. Stag beetles, although maybe not the best thing to see pouring out of a rotting stump, do not have the connotations of filth and disease that cockroaches do. Instead they are symbols of strength and good luck. So the Stranger really *didn't* fail, he DID awaken the life that was in the tree stump, it just wasn't the life he was expecting. And that life provided the strength and good luck to Nori and the Stranger that the stag beetle is associated with.
I think that the rapid fading/tree of Lindon is simply a necessary physical representation of fading to fit into the abridged timeline of the show .I.e. it’s a story telling tool to have a easily understood physical representation rather than a vague concept, which takes time not afforded by a series to explain and portray (similar to having a physical eye of Sauron in the films, to explain the concept of Sauron’s gaze)
I think they were clever in, despite speaking of a rapid fading, focusing on the physical sign of the tree. In a way, between the physical signs that we see and the apocryphal tale from season 1, there’s room to look at it like “oh, the mithril did work to stop the fading” or “perhaps Gil-Galad and others misread the tree’s/Middle-earth’s sickness and the rings simply healed the full tree like it healed the leaf in season 1 episode 7.”
@@davidbeer5015 I agree with the shortened timeline as well. I just wish they had been more vague about the actual speed. Removing the words "by Spring" would have helped.
I like to think that the dying tree is a kick in the pants from Ilúvatar. "You're supposed to be fading away from Middle-Earth to make way for Men. I'll send you a sign to remind you that you've lingered too long." And the Elves, in pride and fear, try to avert the sign to avoid their destiny, rather than taking it as a warning that their destiny can't and shouldn't be averted.
The second obvious religious theme, which Corey does discuss at some length, is _repentence_ . Unlike Corey I think the writers are not so much trying to fool us but instead show us how hard it is for someone like Sauron to repent. On the boat the old man is clear in his instruction to Sauron: Sauron will have to *every day* choose to not do evil but do good. This is an approach very much like dealing with addictions, with the addict *having to live day-by-day.* Repentance in this view is not a one-and-done kind of thing, but instead a daily path to go down. And that is why I think that Sauron encountered the Southlanders on *a path* , the writers showing us a path goes two directions (the way Sauron was going, and the direction the Southlanders were going.)
@@TheDanEdwards I like it, good analysis. I wish the thoughts and motivations of the Sauron character were more clear to me, seems like we have to fill in a lot of gaps in his behavior even though he gets a lot of screen time
I don’t think Sauron outright repented, but rather he was curious about a different path. He was a puddle of goo for a couple thousand years, and I imagine it left him in a more contemplative state of mind. He was going to Mordor to take back his place as the dark lord because that’s all he could think to do, but the old man brought up the possibility of him not going down that route again. After being betrayed and forced to live as goop for a millennia, I like to think he was intrigued at the old man’s proposition and decided to go with them to try out a different path, even if only for a little while to see if it appealed to him more than being a dark lord. He didn’t know where the boat was going, but that wasn’t what interested him, instead it was the idea of traveling with these people and potentially starting over. Sort of a “it’s about the journey, not the destination” kind of thing. That’s my interpretation anyway.
That’s similar to my thought as well. Ultimately a bit of curiosity, and I think the conversation on the boat ties into that and plays into maybe why he didn’t continue, in that repentance and doing good is an active choice, everyday. And maybe that is too much for him.
Either Sauron’s choice to get on the boat was a momentary repentance, or he was intrigued by the idea of traveling to a safe haven of vulnerable and corruptible Men; Mordor was already corrupted, these Men posed a new opportunity (+ orcs had rejected him, so why not try a new race to enslave?) Then Galadriel comes along, and presents an even more intriguing opportunity.
Where was Sauron going? Are you saying he was going to numenor to corrupt them and lead them? Then why didn't he do that? How do we know why he was doing what he was doing? Did he just walk into one long circle from sea to boat to numador back to Mordor? Does that make any sense?
@@AnnoyingCritic-is7rp He was going with the new opportunity We know that he does go to Numenor and corrupts people in the story, and he literally went to Numenor in season one, lead them into a defeat and caused a leadership crisis Maybe you noticed the giant sea monster which stopped the boat, and as mentioned above, he did end up there We don’t, but knowing the story gives clues as to where it eventually leads It doesn’t matter at all what shape his journey takes. He’s not aiming for short term efficiency and has a literal unlimited amount of time to carry out his plans Yes, we see that his actions have garnered results
exactly. he simply recognized there was more opportunity traveling with those people, rather that just going to Adar and his orcs. plus, these people might very well be the first he meets after his re-incarnation, the show doesn't indicate otherwise yet
@@Dan-B I just don't why they are writing him to randomly go places. The character should drive the plot, not the plot drive the story. He literally randomly meets Galadriel and randomly ends up on Numenor. But are you saying he corrupted the people in Numenor and led them to defeat? Didn't the Numenoreans defeat the orcs at Mordor? Also, wasn't it Galadriel's idea to fight them, and that that was a good idea? What is your point about the fish? I thought it was irrelevant. And why did Sauron go back to Mordor if he already had left it? And doesn't the fact we didn't know that in season one seem pretty absurd? What is the point of all this plot around Saroun?
@@AnnoyingCritic-is7rp dark numenorians exist. the fall of numenor is a thing. i think hes more just going full opportunist mode and galadriel just happened to rock up and he was like aha heres something i can work with.
That intro was a flipping work of ART!! There are so many pointers in this, but even then I feel like you guys barely scrapped the surface and there's a million more things to talk about. One thing I noticed about the Tree in Lindon is that when it was healed it looked exactly like Laurelin. Throughout this second season so far, I've been getting this feeling and sense about memories. Nearly everyone suffered some sort of trauma from the First Age, and it's like they are experiencing PTSD, and the memories of Morgoth and the death of the Two Trees, the kinslaying, destruction of Middle earth, corruption of the Elves into Orcs, it's all coming into play in this season and I guess the Tree represented this desire to heal the wound inflicted by Morgoth on the world and the Elves' desire to heal that wound. But of course we see the exact same and opposite with Sauron who talks about wanting to heal the world having experienced a degree of trauma himself by the serving of Morgoth (I mean let's be honest, serving someone like Morgoth would be horrifyingly traumatic). But this time instead of a form of darkness and horror, such that Morgoth was, he's taking on fair forms but forms that go towards corruption. Just writing this has me getting nerdy and freaking out 😂😂 This entire series is profoundly inspiring creatively and I have no doubt that Tolkien would have adored working on this. There's more story and plot and less violence which I love!
I actually really liked spaghetti Sauron, I thought that was an interesting imagination of the defeated, formless Maia, doomed to dwell in the dark places of the earth, slowly rebuilding his strength
@@AnnoyingCritic-is7rp it was certainly a bit jarring at first lol, I wasn’t expecting a symbiotesque goo monster in this show, but once I realized that this was their visualization of a formless, weakened Sauron, I warmed up to it, and now honestly I think it’s one of my favorite things to come out of the show so far. The text of course implies a more wraith-like, spirit type manifestation, but I like this personification of darkness and evil that we get from Venom-Sauron :P Thumbs up!
I have to say, I love your breakdowns of these episodes. It really open my mind to the intricate details hidden under the surface such as the camera angles, color pallette, etc. It's helping me appreciate this show even more than I already do. Can't wait for the rest of the series.
Corey and Nerd of the Rings are my go to. Points out positives and negatives without getting vitriolic and edgelord-y. Gatekeeping bs makes me instantly click off.
A wise person once told me: the wise build while the mundane tear down - as that’s all they know how to do. Can’t help but apply that professional advice to your comment. Well said.
I think the connection between the tree, the fading, the blight in the Southlands and Sauron is purely metaphysical (i.e., evil things beget evil portents) There might be no need for a physical explanation, like Sauron poisoning the tree, etc. Think of the Great Plague in the Third Age: that coincided with Sauron rising again, and it was so deadly that it even killed the second White Tree in Minas Anor (trees just seem to be a great litmus for evil things in Middle-Earth)
@@jscast39 yeah, I also think it likely that there won’t be a tangible explanation for the corruption of the tree other than a somewhat vague “darkness is rising in Middle-Earth, as the Eldar fade, etc etc”
Where is Gandalf going? What's the point of Elrond and Galadriel fighting about the rings? Are we actually thinking that Galadriel is weak or that corruptible or the Elrond should think she is? Does Elrond think she's lying? And why are we repeating the story about the dwarves that we already told about the dwarves and mithril? Now it's the dwarves and the rings. The problem is that it has too many stories going on so we're only giving a few minutes before we cut away. And this is a terrible pacing problem. I don't want to even get into all that nonsense about the eagle and numenor. I mean numenor story should be a Game of Thrones story. To take a long time and develop characters and alliances and culminate in alpharizon getting the throne. Instead it's 10 minutes of seemingly random events.
My feeling is he chooses the boat because we saw how declaring himself went the first time around, and he realises he needs to be more wily and secretive in his approach. He can’t march back to Adar and the orks and expect that to go down any differently, so he decides to follow this idea that others could see good in him (like the old man) as a path. It’s more unknown and winding, but he figures it might get him there in time. So the boat is really a metaphor for letting go of his usual approach, being more like water, so the choice to get on boat is indeed not clear or satisfying, for a clear reason.
Amazing intro and very nicely produced overall. The analysis is excellent as well. People will certainly form their own conclusions about how the RoP series makes them feel, but your insights greatly enhance the experience. And I totally missed the Elrond/Elwing cliff jump parallel! Well done!
Thank you so much for doing this!! I love the safe space you have created for this content. Your thoughts on fading - I wonder if the fading is not necessarily an event or a series of events, but rather a very analog (as opposed to digital) process, and there may even be ups and downs in that fading where it may seem they are growing, or fading very fast. The idea is that they are trending downward, and even though they haven't faded and maybe still a good ways off, just the process of fading is alarming, and there is a desire to stop it.
He is becoming familiar with the ways of men to learn how to deceive them. And what the old man says is a cue to what is about to happen, he will change is path and still find a new way towards his goals, via the man’s shield/heraldry and Galadriel.
When Sauron decides not to go towards death but instead joins the men on the ship, I think he understands the other way would ALSO have been death for him. If he just plunges himself back into the orc army and reveals himself as Sauron, he will be treated the same as in Forodwaith and be betrayed all over again. He realizes he needs a different strategy, a more subtle one and going with men might be a good first step. I think thats why he went on the boat, to avoid the orcs for now.
@@AnnoyingCritic-is7rp yep, don't really understand that decision... probably because they needed a cool shot to end s1 in? He doesnt really achieve anything there other than killing Waldreg.
The goal of it from the end of season 1 seems to be 1) see the state of Adar’s forces, and 2) plant the seed that Sauron is in Eregion which will bother Adar and lead to the attack on Ost-In-Edhil that Sauron will take credit for. (We also get to see a bit of his domination with the Warg)
I was very excited to see the first episode, the beginning was brilliant. I loved all the analysis, seeing Maggie's point of view from the production, from the camera shots is incredible, I am learning a lot. I must admit that I think Sauron's boat trip was some kind of escape or redemption, not necessarily looking for Valinor, but I think that at one point he had an "existential crisis". But his evil never went away, we are all witnesses that the pouch did not come from a "dead man"
Thank you to everyone who gives time and expertise to make this channel happen. Following along with you was one of my favourite things about season 1, and I’m excited to do so in season 2 . Particularly loving Dr Parkes’s bits-I know nothing about filmmaking so learning more about visual storytelling is fascinating. Thanks again!
Do we think one reason Sauron gets on the boat is because he thinks he is already plotting how to get the sigil from the kind man? He seems to be taking this one step at a time so maybe the “fake lineage” was the only play and that’s what he followed. Don’t think this is necessarily a good plot point but just thinking it makes a little more sense.
@@iantucker5013 that was an interesting moment which seems to have gone under the radar a bit. Still doesn’t provide a satisfactory explanation of his actions for me, but who knows, maybe we’ll get to see more of his thought process later on 🤷♂️
Yeah, that's what I thought. He didn't care about the man's speech, he was focusing on the heraldry. I think he wanted to corrupt men as his new servants, and saw a chance to take the trappings of a respected authority to use for legitimacy. Traveling with them for a while before stealing the sigil let him learn their history and stories, which he needs to know if he wants to pretend to be part of them.
Reaction to Sauron. I actually loved the idea that he was winging it and adapting to circumstances. Even the choice to be the Southron king in Numenor was a throw of the dice, not a pre-ordained scheme
I thought of sarouns thinking during the boat and the journey was him plotting and think of how to get his revenge and the humans he met was just a way to pass time and maybe a curiosity about the land they were seeking. I think mainly that his plan is not formed and it was the moment when he saw galadriel that his plan formed and he saw the path he was searching for 😊
With so much reaction rage bait from youtubers this breakdown is such a breath of fresh air. I've just subscribed because thank you for being a voice of reason and education through this season. im loving the show so far.
The series constructs the Mithril narrative by assuming that the light of the Two Trees of Valinor delays or even prevents fading in the elves. It is unknown how long the fading will take and where in the life cycle of the elves this event corresponds. Because no elf has ever experienced this phenomenon in Middle-earth until then. This unknown creates an area for Sauron to manipulate the elves. Mithril could be the element that will bind all the rings of power to the One Ring. This state of attachment, which is unclear in the Lore, is realized through the myth of Mithril's formation (Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir). In the formation nature of Mithril, what is represented by the Balrog (metaphorically speaking) is essentially the spiritual power (his will) that Melkor spreads to Arda. When Sauron makes the One Ring (at the point of his final return from his repentance), he inherits the Arda Marred from Melkor, so as Adar says to Galadriel, the "Shadow of the Dark Lore" (Melkor's will) that was hidden from him reveals itself to Sauron and Sauron has control over this will. As a result, the Three are bound to the One Ring with Mithril in its alloy. The trigger of the evil spreading from Mordor is the Broken Sword. Waldreg had called that sword a "power". Sauron made this sword. It is an object he created from his spiritual power. We know that the evil spreading from this sword accelerated the withering of the tree in Lindon, caused an earthquake in Khazad-dûm and even caused Glanduin in front of Eregion to dry up according to the vision Vilya showed Gil-galad. Since the soul cannot be divided in Tolkien mythology (it is connected by being incarnated), there is a situation like quantum entanglement between the true self and its sub-creations, as claimed by spiritualist philosophy. It is normal for Sauron to have knowledge about the situations caused by objects connected to his spiritual power and to always sense them in his being. Just like he always senses the existence of the One Ring (not where it is, but whether it exists). Sauron senses this power. Therefore, I think it is natural that he would be aware of the situation in Khazad-dûm with this connection.
Very good. My thought is that the Stranger is Blue Wizard 2. Ciaran Hinds is Blue Wizard 1 who went bad. Hinds sends the 3 witches to find Sauron. Stranger is not Sauron but he is very powerful. Hinds believes him to be Istari. Maybe one he can align with or one he may need to fear.
sauron initially repenting and then turning back to his old ways again at the begining of the second age is such a missed opportunity for an interesting character arc. we could have had a whole episode on that, going along the lines of: - sauron aimlessly wanders in the wild - runs into a rag tag band of men - initially reluctantly, he teaches them to make agriculture tools, reinforced wheels etc - the men thrive, begin to idolize sauron, sauron begins to enjoy this role of a leader of men - however, the men eventually prove too headstrong and chaotic to effectivelly rule over - sauron leaves them for a century (a blink of an eye for him), and they all go back to their old ways - they stop using his tools and roll back all the previous progress, they overthrow his loyalists that hadn't already died off naturally, they forget sauron alltogether - sauron gets driven to madness by the "aimless friction" would have been much more interesting
The black slime reminds me of Gandalf's description of his fight with the Balrog: „Long time I fell,’ he said at last, slowly, as if thinking back with difficulty. ‘Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart...Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.“
What a wonderful intro 😃😃😃I am so happy Rings and Realms is back! I think there is another moment of choice. When Sauron is lying on the floor, surrounded by Orcs, there is a short moment when he can see the bright light from above the cave. It's not just the sky, it's the very bright light of Anor that shines directly upon him, and he looks very young and ....innocent. Then the view is blocked again by the bodies of the Orcs, while we hear black speech in the background. Sauron closes his eyes and the decision is made. He does not repent and his spirit does not go back to Valinor to ask for forgiveness.
Amazing show guys, I love being able to look forward to this after digesting the episodes for myself. With regard to Sauron's repentance, it felt to me like it was at least somewhat genuine or at least a hopeful curiosity. Like maybe he thought "could I really change?" The moment on the boat felt like a relapse, just like anyone trying to go against years of habit or indoctrination. I think that the boat was originally headed for Numenor and when they find themselves there Sauron once again believes he can start anew. I do think that his desire was genuine while on Numenor up until that scene where he almost leaves the pouch behind. This scene to me was him finally caving to the overwhelming opportunity to realise his greater and darker ambitions. There is no one else present for that deliberation scene so I have to believe it was a genuine turning point.
I like to think that Sauron repented for a short while, but its like Diarmid said - you have to choose to do good every day. And Sauron is just unable to do that. He will do something good one minute and then immediately do evil again because he can't help himself
I think the answer for why Sauron got on the boat is made pretty clear in the intro. Sauron, after his sort of reincarnation, has lost essentially everything. His clout, his army, maybe even his power, and he clearly is just completely apathetic to not just his original plans but life itself. The old man tells him that where he walks will lead to death and Sauron replies by saying that's fine with him and that those who have died are lucky, clearly implying he wished to be dead himself. This is further reinforced when the fish attacks as Sauron makes no attempt to avoid the beast. The old man then gives Sauron a speech about how you can move on from your mistakes and that they're heading towards a place where you can start a new life and get a second chance. Even if you want to believe Sauron isn't repentant here, he already doesn't have any plans for life and is completely ok with death so hitching a ride with these people if not just to listen to this old man's intriguing philosophy on life makes perfect sense for a character who has no motivation to do anything. And speaking of the validity of Sauron's repentance, I think it's pretty clear he did repent in the story at least by the time he reached Numenor. Even if you ignore the two times in the story when Sauron outright admits he's done terrible things in the past and feels bad about it, you can just look at his central struggle on Numenor to see the difference in his character. Sauron's main goal in life is to conquer middle earth. His inner most desire is to be a lord over creation. Yet, when Galadriel gift wraps him the opportunity to be a king to the southlands, Sauron declines and instead chooses to be a blacksmith. Why, if Sauron is unrepentent and still wants power, would he reject a free chance at power? It makes no sense.
Staying in Numenor makes sense bc they'll get Galadriel out of his hair and he can focus on corrupting Numenor. He was deciding if that would be better than trying to corrupt Galadriel
He lost everything? How is it possible to think that Sauron has lost everything? Surely whatever power he has still exists? He is a demi god. At any rate how can this be clear? You're saying that he got on the boat because he got on the boat. Why didn't he walk in another direction? And why did he end up walking back to Mordor? And I think he walked back to Erigon In the beginning of season 2. So I don't think it's very clear at all.
Great insight. I agree with you that he never really repented. But I think it's less about repentance and more about humility. I think he had a wet dream about winning over the masses by being a humble leader, like Gandalf would eventually be. Getting on the boat, he might just do something like take them to numenor.But then there was a sea monster and who really cares. By the time Gal shows up, he's had enough humility and it's time to soar on others wings again
Squeee. So happy you guys are back. My sister and I watched all three of the released episodes and I immediately got on youtube to see if you guys were up yet. Heh.
Makes sense Sauron would have a very Sith “Rule of Two” attitude toward leadership, very cool! (No one needs to remind me which came first trust me I know 😂)
@@juliawold77 yeah I thought that concept of like, “Sauron needs a lieutenant” was interesting and the connection between Adar and Galadriel, both candidates for the role, was a fascinating parallel I hadn’t picked up on
The squid ink pasta form that Sauron returns to reminds me of the story Gandalf gave of the Balrog when he describes their fight in Moria, when they finally land in water after falling into the chasm. "A thing of slime..."
There is a scene where The Stranger speaks of understanding homesickness and knowing the feeling. He says at times he misses a land where he was before he came to Middle-earth but has no memory of it. Isn't there a place in The Silmarillion of elsewhere is Tolkien's writings that "man" (humans) have a longing when they look at either sunrises or sunsets because they are reminded of their time (their immortal souls) were with Illuvatar before they were born. Or rather man's true home is with Illuvatar? I recall a scene where Aragorn has a longing when watching a sunrise or sunset. Does anyone recall that in Tolkien's writings or am I misremembering something? Dr Olsen mentions the scene @39:27.
The way i see Sauron at the beginning is that he have probably a plan of conquest in his mind but the meeting with Diarmid (the old man) and the exchange got into his head. I see him still having an end goal but he is on a crossroad and still doesn't know how exactly he will do it. Maybe, with the teaching of Diarmid, he can achieve it by trying to be good and reach for forgiveness. The end goal doesn't change but how he could obtain it, as a man, could change. He just had the biggest blow of his life by being betray. He use the dictatorial and plain approach and he was rejected and "kill" as an enemy. The centuries of being formless and trying to regenerate was probably enough to reconsider the means to the end goal. He also try to reflect on his new form as a man and how Man can navigate through life without any kind of special power and as mortal. Diarmid conversation touch the Halbrand character and the vulnerability of wearing this form. If it was truly a chance meeting with Galadriel, he seem this as a way to capitalize on what he have learn from the old man about forgiveness (he ask Galadriel for it when he said that he was sorry) and trying to make and be good. Doesn't mean he feel that way, but to achieve his plan, he must have to embrace his Halbrand character, make some allies along the way and try to continue to crawl on top by deceiving with good intention and help. As Galadriel reject him at the end, the blow was hard. He now have been rejected by the dark and the light. So he decided to make himself beyond good and evil and screw them both without regard. Finally, i'm not sure if it was the idea, but the black goo Sauron make a kind of evolutionary journey to the top. He have to pass through the reign of mineral, vegetal, animal then human to finally get a demigod/elven like form with Annatar. He is like a predator who crawl himself on top by preying on others.
Thank you both for this beautiful re-cap and analysis. I am very looking forward to what's to come. Regarding Sauron joining the Southlanders on their boat: Maybe it doesn't have to be so complicated and Sauron is merely seeing an opportunity presenting itsself in form of the Southland King's tote around the old servants neck. It quickly catches his attention, and he steals it as soon as possible. In Season 1, it certainly opens up a lot of possibilities. As Sauron (literally) rolls with the punches, I can see how this item could spark his imagination and kindle some plans.
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At 3:48, This is an error. Professor Tolkien did explain Saurons mindest and vision on his reasons for his surrender to evil. Author Brian Silbey organized Professor Tolkien's points in "The Down Fall of Numenor" that was published in 2022.
I have been looking forward to this as much as the actual episodes of Rings of Power! I haven’t watched it yet, but besides the gorgeous opening sequence, the moment of Corey on the ground with his eyes closed was perfect. I didn’t know what to expect prior to Maggie’s face appearing on the screen. But the production quality of Rings and Realms it is so good that it wouldn’t have surprised me if icy white light had exploded out of Corey! I can’t wait to hear what you guys have to say, but I think I’ll watch that opening sequence again a couple of times first.😂👏👏👏🔥
Minor SPOILER:: So, we do see later that the original 3 were actually touched/corrupted by Sauron. Though it's subtle and unbeknownst to anyone but perhaps Celibrimbor.
Sauron touched the mithril that went into the molten metal for the 7 dwarves rings, not the original 3 of the elves. Halbrand left Eregion last season before the 3 were physically forged.
@@noahunsworth1290 Yes but Halbrand DID touch the Mithril that went in to the making of the 3 rings. As you'll recall he held it for quite some time and Celebrimbor became a bit antsy about it and asked him to hand it back over. Presumably Halbrand/Sauron knew what he was doing at the time and was imbuing that Mithril with his power/essence/corruption. He has some degree of foresight.
@@EmeraldView You're right, I forgot that he touched the mithril nugget for them too. That is probably why the three rings are able to be controlled by the power of the One Ring and why the elf ringbearers have to take them off until the One Ring is cut from Sauron finger. I am guessing that Sauron's corruption of the three is less than the rest of the rings since he only touched the mithril but did not construct or handle the finished rings themselves. I am also guessing that the pure Valinorian Gold and Silver from Finrod's dagger used for the three elvish rings may also help reduce Sauron's taint.
@@noahunsworth1290 Precisely. Yeah when in the recent episode I noticed that Anatar/Sauron basically insisted on handling the Mithril and seemed to clearly do something with it, I recall the conversation that he never touched the 3 elven rings. So that focus on him touching the Mithril for the dwarven rings made me recall the scene where he was touching the Mithril that went into the elven rings. Nobody else other than Celebrimbor knows that and he probably doesn't think it's important since he does not know Halbrand/Anatar is Sauron. The messenger never made it to him to notify him.
I made the connection between Elrond's jump and Elwing's, but not between Gil-galad and Galadriel and the Feanorians. How interesting! PS- Corey's mention of "glorious purpose" means that I will now always think of Sauron thinking himself "burdened with glorious purpose." :) Thanks for a great show!
But Elrond landed at the bottom of the sea and should have been dead. Instead he has no mark upon him. His hair is in the same style. And even if he would have died he would not have gotten rid of the rings they could have just searched the bottom of the water for his pouch. I believe his actions were irrational.
@@AnnoyingCritic-is7rp I think it takes a touch of irrationality to willingly jump off a cliff 😉😅 I thought it was a bit absurd too, but the parallel with Elwing is at least a very interesting easter egg lol
@@AnnoyingCritic-is7rp Irrational? Yes, in that way that following your intuition of what's right is often "irrational" in Tolkien. Eru moves in mysterious ways indeed.
Very well done team. I’d like at some point an analysis of the opening with the sand both from Corey and Maggie. Not simply sound and song as a tool of creation but what is forming and visually representative and how is that connected thematically to the season
There is very much a layering of religious themes in this first episode that could use further exposition. First off, the *use of blood-like wine to transform* (e.g. with Adar.) Corey stopped short of going full Catholic with the concept of _transubstantiation_ , but it is very common in Christian belief that the communion is somehow magical, transformational. I think the writer of this episodes (and others) are very much attempting to call up the wine/blood drinking rituals of various belief systems (not just orthodox Christianity).
Yeah, the Stranger...totally a Blue Wizard! Nothing to see here. No sir 😂😂😂 Great to see this series back! It was always very enjoyable last season and I appreciate the insight shared. Also, re: Sauron and the "black goo." Couldn't this be a reference to Gandalf's discussion of how he defeated the Balrog in Lord of the Rings? "‘Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,’ said Gandalf. ‘Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.'"
@marcos3497 you mean the “gand”, like what the person before me asked? Just checked, “gand” is an old Norse word for staff. It is in “Gandalf” but the word on its own, used in the correct context, imo, isn’t very solid a point.
@@davidbeer5015 It's just a very specific word that doesn't come up in language. Like Halbrand's real identity, it seems too obvious to be true, but it was.
Corey makes good points about the boat. Why does Sauron get on it? Where does he think it's going? I like to think (and this might be wishful thinking) that there is something in him striving for repentance. Maybe some deep instinct led him to long for the light of valinor once more. In S1, we're told that morgoth spent days gazing at the silmaris, enraptured by their beauty. In this show, maybe even evil things still love the light. Then we come to Sauron's admission that he has 'done evil'. Again, it might be wishful thinking, but I see genuine repentance on Sauron's part.
Incredible video and production as always, excited to dive back into these episodes as the show progresses! If I had just one remark I'd say the audio mixing on both of your voices needs a little bit more love (lacking lows in my opinion) to make this even more enjoyable :) Can't wait for the next one thank you!
I think Sauron wanted to slowly make alliances with other creatures to make it easier to take revenge on Adar and the orcs. Whether that’s Numenor or lands in the west that aren’t Valinor, or what. Because he only chose to go with the old man seemingly because of the crest of kings. His original plan was to have orcs rule over men and elves and dwarves. Then he wants to destroy the orcs with men and elves and orcs on his side. And soon he will have to use orcs to do what he wants, at least in part, but we’ll have to see how he does that…whether with a ring of power or not.
I have to say it. Elwing was wrong, not Maedhros and Maglor. Maedhros - as always - asked to give him back the Silmarill and as Dior before her Elwing refuses to give back what does not belong to her, but to the sons of Feanor. So instead of doing the right thing, she abandons her little kids (!!) and lets the people of the Havens be slaughtered and flees.
TBH I'm not really a big fan of the show... I've only watched season 2, episode 1 so far. Some things I like, some are meh and some things I could do without (rolling R's anyone?)That being said, I really enjoy Corey and Maggie's deep dive into the show. Feel free to agree or disagree with them...I count any discussion about Tolkien as a win. I look forward to future interviews and question/answer periods... should be interesting. Also love what I'm learning about filming technique!
am i the only one who has always respectfully disagreed with Corey on the black infestation of the trees in valinor? i've looked again and again and i don't see black infection. The trees are being burned and singed. the black we see is charing that is spreading and you see the leaves burning up as the camera moves up the tree.
Spoiler for episode 2! I do think that the comparison to Feanor's sons and Gil-Galad/Galadriel is as damning to them in truth as it is in Elrond's mind. I think it shows how Elrond perceives it/them at that time. When Cirdan in season 2 tells him 'For it is not your enemy that wears these rings, but your most trusted friends', it takes some of the venom out of that scene. They weren't his enemies, that he chose to jump away from. They were his friends. And maybe, just maybe, he should allow himself to trust them a bit more. If not on the matter of the rings, at least on the matter of his own safety during these conversations.
Vows are super important and utterly binding in Tolkien's mythology. Galadriel utters a vow in these episodes, to never rest until Sauron is defeated. I think the kind of _does rest_ in this quest as she's not exactly firing on all cylinders, especially in the later days of the Third Age. She's absolutely resisting, and supporting, but not as active as one might have been. I think she is kind of resting, when she's cooped up in Lorien after kicking Sauron's butt in Dol Guldur.
Good stuff. at 44:26 had never really considered before that it must have been absolute torture for Christopher to not be able to just ask his dad for answers to some of the questions he had reading through his notes over the years.
Thank you! Here to repeat the journey of S 1: watch an episode, then watch this and Nerd's breakdowns. Have only watched E1 yet so will be back later this week for the rest.
THE INTRODUCTION SO WOWWWWWWW!!!! THIS IS THE MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE ANALYSIS EVER A LOT OF ASPECTS WE CAN LEARN. THANK YOU SIR AND MADAM FOR YOUR INTELLIGENT WORK REALLY APPRECIATE IT DEEPLY FROM MY HEART! BIG LOVE FROM MALAYSIA...
Getting real tired of all the rage-farming channels hating on the show based on their supposed (and very close-minded) biases. Glad there is a channel that does some actual open-minded analyzing! Glad you are back in full swing again!
I think that Sauron just liked the idea of being good and wanted to play with it. To test what a different path would be like. Once the monster destroyed the boat, he remembered death is everywhere and how middle earth is corrupted. So he decided to follow his plan of evil and conquest.
Now that i think about it. The meeting between Galadriel and Sauron was providential because they are sharing a parallel and the same kind of origin story. The two was call from a place in the West that require a sea voyage. I don't really know what place Diarmid was talking about but it was a place with hope and goodness. Galadriel have also to go to that place of light and hope (Valinor). The two of them were at a crossroad of a dilemma and one was on a quest for revenge and the other for power. Galadriel choose to stay in Middle Earth by keep navigating to the darkness. So the monster was sent to attack the boat so she can meet Halbrand on the raft. Sauron could not go to the good place because Galadriel could not go there either. If Galadriel cannot find peace, Sauron cannot either. Sauron need to find forgiveness for himself that only Galadriel can provide for him to be free and he fail because he didn't choose the path of humility. Galadriel needed Sauron to heal by letting go her quest for vengeance represented by the dagger. The dagger and the pouch had a similar purpose. Two temptations, the dagger symbolize the temptation for revenge and the pouch the temptation for power. The two objects were taking from the dead and dark intention was still lying within them. At the end, when the choice arrive, Sauron cannot let go of the pouch and didn't make the sacrifice to end his quest for power but Galadriel could let herself free from the dagger. Diarmid tell Sauron how he could have look at the pouch and change the purpose of it. To make it change from a symbol of power to a symbol of humility and a reminder of his humiliation as he fell from power centuries ago. Sauron fail. Galadriel change the power of the dagger by making something to heal and save the elves out of love. She was able to make the sacrifice and let go her quest for revenge. Galadriel succeed.
Great start to Rings & Realms season 2... Bravi, Corey and Maggie!! I actually came here to say what I think several other commenters have already picked up on. You may not be satisfied that there is sufficient motive for Sauron to get on the boat, but it's easier to swallow if you consider Sauron to be in a middle state, having neither resolved to repent nor to scheme. I think this accounts for the visual cues that Maggie brilliantly observed, which indicate neither motion toward nor motion away from Mordor. His decision to follow the men could come from a state of mind in flux--a mere search for new opportunity. Because what awaits him in Mordor? Just death... either he destroys the rebellious orcs or they destroy him again. If he follows the men, who knows what might present itself? For my part, that is enough rationale to consider his actions convincing for the sake of the story. I've certainly gone along with flimsier pretenses in other shows.
@@primal1233 missed opportunity to actually talk about Tolkien imo, disappointing that so many people are caught up in the hate train. Oh well, hopefully the real fans will prevail in time
Sadly being a rage baiting outrage farmer gets more clicks. Especially when people already decided to hate the show before season one even premiered. Mostly because of black elves, and dwarves. So a good chunk of the internet does not want a thoughtful, and good faith analysis by people who are very thoroughly versed in Tolkien's mythos. They want they contempt for the show to be validated. Which is why a channel like this with this title will get a fraction of the views that a video from a channel like CriticalDrinker, who has already established himself as an "Anti-woke" creator, with a title like "SEASON 2 IS AN ABOMINATION TO TOLKIEN!" will. This is the sad state of affair with media in general these days. Many people have decided that any piece of media is either going to be perfection to be lauded, or a trash fire to be reviled, depending on which boxes it checks.
It could just be that I've blocked so many haters that Twitter has stopped showing me their tweets, but I see a lot less blind hatred this time around. During season 1, you could hardly go to any post about RoP without seeing hundreds, if not thousands, of hate-posts (often just copying and pasting the same misquote). Now, it seems that the hate-posts are a small minority. I think many of the genuine Tolkien fans who disliked the show have actually moved on, just leaving the dedicated haters who haven't yet gotten the memo that there are new things out to hate.
Hey Corey and Maggie! Wonderful breakdown (and many kudos to Jordan for the amazing soundscape!). Quick question. Around the 22:00 mark, you mention how the Three Rings are indeed not tainted by Sauron. However, at the destruction of the One Ring at the end of RotK, we're told that their Rings lost their power. How is this so if they weren't tainted in any way? Did they only become so after the forging of the One?
I think Sauron is walking slowly towards Mordor, thinking about how he is going to regain power, kill Adar? How to do it? And then the old man catches his attention because he talks about how the most powerful can fall, but what, (and I think this is what decides Sauron): when one path closes, another opens and it can be better... and Sauron decides to try. As always, he has a bit of a cowardly side and escapes. And it works out very well for him...
Well done! I've been thinking about the scene with Círdan on the boat - what does Corey think about the possibility of the bumping wave being Ulmo's doing?
@@Fallaryn hmm, idk, direct interventions by the Valar are rare, and also perhaps more importantly, Cirdan becoming enamored of the rings (or whatever exactly happened there) is interrupting Iluvatar’s process as Corey said, the natural progression of the Eldar’s fading and departure to Valinor. Basically it’s at odds with what the Valar presumably desire, for the elves to return to the Undying Lands, so Ulmo intervening would be odd
@@Flash4ML I understand that perspective, which could mean it was the rings creating that wave to save themselves. Where I'm at in this question is based on the possibility that Sauron's return and spreading darkness is connected to the presumed accelerated fading of the Eldar, and Ulmo is known to be the most involved of the Valar. That perhaps Ulmo is aware of Sauron's increasing presence and urged Círdan to use the rings to stave off the fading until Sauron is defeated.
He definitely gives off evil vibes when he snatches the necklace and refuses to save the old man... although, a small part of that might be what he said earlier about Mordor. "Maybe they [the ones who died] were the lucky ones". So he might be thinking "ooooh shiny, also I guess its better for this dude to drown now then possibly starve to death on a raft".
I'm so glad someone is finally identifying The Stranger as a Blue Wizard. The not-Saruman is likely the other Blue Wizard. They are the characters most open to adaption, since Tolkien said so little about them. They're only associated with Rhun and the East. They likely arrived at the same time which is consistent with the lore
@@jj48blue wizards came together by boat not by meteor, and also traveled together to the east! Having just one blue wizard makes no sense and we’ll just repurpose all of Gandalfs lines so that it looks like Gandalf got all his sayings from this blue wizard, who he can’t even remember! Just like having two Durin’s exist at the same time, guess everything the dwarves believe goes right out the window.
Very excited for more Rings and Realms! I have to mention, it seems like something is off with the audio? Your voice recordings seem very thin and low volume compared to other channels.
the eldar spirits and forms was designed to be tied to arda, as arda ages they very slowly also "age" by "fading" their spirit slowly consume their shells or forms and they must either live on as spiritless forms or leave arda as it ages, this is the order and natural design by Eru, however, it is possible that the sudden rapid "fading" could be "accelerated"" by the influence of the re-emergence of Sauron and him spreading his malice and evil intent over Arda and effecting men and other forms of life. the 3 rings stayed this effect by "insulating" the Eldar as a race from the evil spreading, returning or halting the process back to normal "rate", so that they would go back to slowly, in time scales of men and beast so long it would never be comprehended, fading with the slow fading of Arda itself. they are bound to Arda and their spirits can even be returned there to a new body or same body even after death if so approved by Eru. i see no issue with the rapid fading if you put it into a short term context of Sauron's influence which is solved with the 3 rings of power, even tho it did not eliminate Sauron, it did halt the effect upon their accelerated decline or fading, which forced them to leave Arda in the 3rd to 4th age.
Just want to point out, the bugs infesting the tree in the desert that come roiling out when the Stranger blows it up by accident are not cockroaches, they're stag beetles. Stag beetles, although maybe not the best thing to see pouring out of a rotting stump, do not have the connotations of filth and disease that cockroaches do. Instead they are symbols of strength and good luck. So the Stranger really *didn't* fail, he DID awaken the life that was in the tree stump, it just wasn't the life he was expecting. And that life provided the strength and good luck to Nori and the Stranger that the stag beetle is associated with.
Just one more great detail. Thanks
Un gran detalle en una serie pesima
I think that the rapid fading/tree of Lindon is simply a necessary physical representation of fading to fit into the abridged timeline of the show .I.e. it’s a story telling tool to have a easily understood physical representation rather than a vague concept, which takes time not afforded by a series to explain and portray (similar to having a physical eye of Sauron in the films, to explain the concept of Sauron’s gaze)
I think they were clever in, despite speaking of a rapid fading, focusing on the physical sign of the tree. In a way, between the physical signs that we see and the apocryphal tale from season 1, there’s room to look at it like “oh, the mithril did work to stop the fading” or “perhaps Gil-Galad and others misread the tree’s/Middle-earth’s sickness and the rings simply healed the full tree like it healed the leaf in season 1 episode 7.”
@@davidbeer5015 I agree with the shortened timeline as well. I just wish they had been more vague about the actual speed. Removing the words "by Spring" would have helped.
I like to think that the dying tree is a kick in the pants from Ilúvatar. "You're supposed to be fading away from Middle-Earth to make way for Men. I'll send you a sign to remind you that you've lingered too long." And the Elves, in pride and fear, try to avert the sign to avoid their destiny, rather than taking it as a warning that their destiny can't and shouldn't be averted.
The second obvious religious theme, which Corey does discuss at some length, is _repentence_ . Unlike Corey I think the writers are not so much trying to fool us but instead show us how hard it is for someone like Sauron to repent. On the boat the old man is clear in his instruction to Sauron: Sauron will have to *every day* choose to not do evil but do good. This is an approach very much like dealing with addictions, with the addict *having to live day-by-day.* Repentance in this view is not a one-and-done kind of thing, but instead a daily path to go down. And that is why I think that Sauron encountered the Southlanders on *a path* , the writers showing us a path goes two directions (the way Sauron was going, and the direction the Southlanders were going.)
@@TheDanEdwards I like it, good analysis. I wish the thoughts and motivations of the Sauron character were more clear to me, seems like we have to fill in a lot of gaps in his behavior even though he gets a lot of screen time
I don’t think Sauron outright repented, but rather he was curious about a different path. He was a puddle of goo for a couple thousand years, and I imagine it left him in a more contemplative state of mind. He was going to Mordor to take back his place as the dark lord because that’s all he could think to do, but the old man brought up the possibility of him not going down that route again. After being betrayed and forced to live as goop for a millennia, I like to think he was intrigued at the old man’s proposition and decided to go with them to try out a different path, even if only for a little while to see if it appealed to him more than being a dark lord. He didn’t know where the boat was going, but that wasn’t what interested him, instead it was the idea of traveling with these people and potentially starting over. Sort of a “it’s about the journey, not the destination” kind of thing.
That’s my interpretation anyway.
That’s similar to my thought as well. Ultimately a bit of curiosity, and I think the conversation on the boat ties into that and plays into maybe why he didn’t continue, in that repentance and doing good is an active choice, everyday. And maybe that is too much for him.
Funny how Galadriel spent hundreds of years hunting him while he was just being goo.
He was never a pile of gooo!!!!
Sauron doesn't need to "express his vision" to orcs. The idea is antithetical to LOTR. Maybe not season of the witch.
I think it was more a change of strategy that made the choice, than a change of heart.
Either Sauron’s choice to get on the boat was a momentary repentance, or he was intrigued by the idea of traveling to a safe haven of vulnerable and corruptible Men; Mordor was already corrupted, these Men posed a new opportunity (+ orcs had rejected him, so why not try a new race to enslave?) Then Galadriel comes along, and presents an even more intriguing opportunity.
Where was Sauron going?
Are you saying he was going to numenor to corrupt them and lead them?
Then why didn't he do that?
How do we know why he was doing what he was doing?
Did he just walk into one long circle from sea to boat to numador back to Mordor?
Does that make any sense?
@@AnnoyingCritic-is7rp
He was going with the new opportunity
We know that he does go to Numenor and corrupts people in the story, and he literally went to Numenor in season one, lead them into a defeat and caused a leadership crisis
Maybe you noticed the giant sea monster which stopped the boat, and as mentioned above, he did end up there
We don’t, but knowing the story gives clues as to where it eventually leads
It doesn’t matter at all what shape his journey takes. He’s not aiming for short term efficiency and has a literal unlimited amount of time to carry out his plans
Yes, we see that his actions have garnered results
exactly. he simply recognized there was more opportunity traveling with those people, rather that just going to Adar and his orcs.
plus, these people might very well be the first he meets after his re-incarnation, the show doesn't indicate otherwise yet
@@Dan-B I just don't why they are writing him to randomly go places. The character should drive the plot, not the plot drive the story. He literally randomly meets Galadriel and randomly ends up on Numenor.
But are you saying he corrupted the people in Numenor and led them to defeat? Didn't the Numenoreans defeat the orcs at Mordor? Also, wasn't it Galadriel's idea to fight them, and that that was a good idea?
What is your point about the fish?
I thought it was irrelevant.
And why did Sauron go back to Mordor if he already had left it?
And doesn't the fact we didn't know that in season one seem pretty absurd? What is the point of all this plot around Saroun?
@@AnnoyingCritic-is7rp dark numenorians exist. the fall of numenor is a thing. i think hes more just going full opportunist mode and galadriel just happened to rock up and he was like aha heres something i can work with.
That intro was a flipping work of ART!! There are so many pointers in this, but even then I feel like you guys barely scrapped the surface and there's a million more things to talk about. One thing I noticed about the Tree in Lindon is that when it was healed it looked exactly like Laurelin. Throughout this second season so far, I've been getting this feeling and sense about memories. Nearly everyone suffered some sort of trauma from the First Age, and it's like they are experiencing PTSD, and the memories of Morgoth and the death of the Two Trees, the kinslaying, destruction of Middle earth, corruption of the Elves into Orcs, it's all coming into play in this season and I guess the Tree represented this desire to heal the wound inflicted by Morgoth on the world and the Elves' desire to heal that wound. But of course we see the exact same and opposite with Sauron who talks about wanting to heal the world having experienced a degree of trauma himself by the serving of Morgoth (I mean let's be honest, serving someone like Morgoth would be horrifyingly traumatic). But this time instead of a form of darkness and horror, such that Morgoth was, he's taking on fair forms but forms that go towards corruption. Just writing this has me getting nerdy and freaking out 😂😂
This entire series is profoundly inspiring creatively and I have no doubt that Tolkien would have adored working on this. There's more story and plot and less violence which I love!
I actually really liked spaghetti Sauron, I thought that was an interesting imagination of the defeated, formless Maia, doomed to dwell in the dark places of the earth, slowly rebuilding his strength
Me too. I actually felt sorry for him
You didn't think it was just a rip off of venom and kind of absurd?
@@AnnoyingCritic-is7rp it was certainly a bit jarring at first lol, I wasn’t expecting a symbiotesque goo monster in this show, but once I realized that this was their visualization of a formless, weakened Sauron, I warmed up to it, and now honestly I think it’s one of my favorite things to come out of the show so far. The text of course implies a more wraith-like, spirit type manifestation, but I like this personification of darkness and evil that we get from Venom-Sauron :P Thumbs up!
@@AnnoyingCritic-is7rp
A unique and visually impactful way of rendering the idea I thought.
Why would he need that? Why would he be killed by orcs? It is more than ridiculous.
I have to say, I love your breakdowns of these episodes. It really open my mind to the intricate details hidden under the surface such as the camera angles, color pallette, etc. It's helping me appreciate this show even more than I already do. Can't wait for the rest of the series.
I just wanna say, thanks corey for being one of just a few channels that takes the show seriously and doesn't just spout hate.
Also, his credibility and knowledge of Tolkien surpass most UA-camrs if not all.
Corey and Nerd of the Rings are my go to.
Points out positives and negatives without getting vitriolic and edgelord-y. Gatekeeping bs makes me instantly click off.
A wise person once told me: the wise build while the mundane tear down - as that’s all they know how to do. Can’t help but apply that professional advice to your comment. Well said.
Far left shills
Looks like someone can't tell the difference between "hate" and criticism.
That intro alone was INCREDIBLE
Hillarious
Corey is one of sauron's forms!! 😂😂
Agreed! 😅
😅
“But it’s not alone.” - *Black Widow, probably*
I think the connection between the tree, the fading, the blight in the Southlands and Sauron is purely metaphysical (i.e., evil things beget evil portents) There might be no need for a physical explanation, like Sauron poisoning the tree, etc. Think of the Great Plague in the Third Age: that coincided with Sauron rising again, and it was so deadly that it even killed the second White Tree in Minas Anor (trees just seem to be a great litmus for evil things in Middle-Earth)
@@jscast39 yeah, I also think it likely that there won’t be a tangible explanation for the corruption of the tree other than a somewhat vague “darkness is rising in Middle-Earth, as the Eldar fade, etc etc”
39:21 "Whatever the other blue wizard..." :D Dr. Corey is up to something :D
"Get up, we gotta go." Made me laugh.
It still has issues (ex. some clunky dialogue), but so far I think the structure and pacing is improved.
imo the dialogue was noticeably improved in the first three episodes of season 2. Wouldn't say it was perfect, but it was much, much better.
@@Otterable8 like I get the metaphor about being played like a harp, but it was a mouthful lol. Sometimes keeping it simple would be more effective.
Some? The entire series is pseudo Tolkienian empty platitudes.
@@rjmacready6693
Hyperbole
Where is Gandalf going?
What's the point of Elrond and Galadriel fighting about the rings? Are we actually thinking that Galadriel is weak or that corruptible or the Elrond should think she is? Does Elrond think she's lying?
And why are we repeating the story about the dwarves that we already told about the dwarves and mithril?
Now it's the dwarves and the rings.
The problem is that it has too many stories going on so we're only giving a few minutes before we cut away. And this is a terrible pacing problem.
I don't want to even get into all that nonsense about the eagle and numenor. I mean numenor story should be a Game of Thrones story. To take a long time and develop characters and alliances and culminate in alpharizon getting the throne. Instead it's 10 minutes of seemingly random events.
A hilarious intro, insightful analysis, and top-notch production quality-thank you for giving us not just one, but two fantastic shows!
My feeling is he chooses the boat because we saw how declaring himself went the first time around, and he realises he needs to be more wily and secretive in his approach. He can’t march back to Adar and the orks and expect that to go down any differently, so he decides to follow this idea that others could see good in him (like the old man) as a path. It’s more unknown and winding, but he figures it might get him there in time. So the boat is really a metaphor for letting go of his usual approach, being more like water, so the choice to get on boat is indeed not clear or satisfying, for a clear reason.
Amazing intro and very nicely produced overall. The analysis is excellent as well. People will certainly form their own conclusions about how the RoP series makes them feel, but your insights greatly enhance the experience. And I totally missed the Elrond/Elwing cliff jump parallel! Well done!
Thank you so much for doing this!! I love the safe space you have created for this content. Your thoughts on fading - I wonder if the fading is not necessarily an event or a series of events, but rather a very analog (as opposed to digital) process, and there may even be ups and downs in that fading where it may seem they are growing, or fading very fast. The idea is that they are trending downward, and even though they haven't faded and maybe still a good ways off, just the process of fading is alarming, and there is a desire to stop it.
He is becoming familiar with the ways of men to learn how to deceive them. And what the old man says is a cue to what is about to happen, he will change is path and still find a new way towards his goals, via the man’s shield/heraldry and Galadriel.
When Sauron decides not to go towards death but instead joins the men on the ship, I think he understands the other way would ALSO have been death for him. If he just plunges himself back into the orc army and reveals himself as Sauron, he will be treated the same as in Forodwaith and be betrayed all over again. He realizes he needs a different strategy, a more subtle one and going with men might be a good first step. I think thats why he went on the boat, to avoid the orcs for now.
Doesn't he end up going back to Mordor anyway?
@@AnnoyingCritic-is7rp yep, don't really understand that decision... probably because they needed a cool shot to end s1 in? He doesnt really achieve anything there other than killing Waldreg.
The goal of it from the end of season 1 seems to be 1) see the state of Adar’s forces, and 2) plant the seed that Sauron is in Eregion which will bother Adar and lead to the attack on Ost-In-Edhil that Sauron will take credit for. (We also get to see a bit of his domination with the Warg)
I was very excited to see the first episode, the beginning was brilliant. I loved all the analysis, seeing Maggie's point of view from the production, from the camera shots is incredible, I am learning a lot.
I must admit that I think Sauron's boat trip was some kind of escape or redemption, not necessarily looking for Valinor, but I think that at one point he had an "existential crisis". But his evil never went away, we are all witnesses that the pouch did not come from a "dead man"
Yes!! I have been so looking forward to this. You can't have ROP without a Rings and Realms analysis. Welcome back!
Thank you to everyone who gives time and expertise to make this channel happen. Following along with you was one of my favourite things about season 1, and I’m excited to do so in season 2 . Particularly loving Dr Parkes’s bits-I know nothing about filmmaking so learning more about visual storytelling is fascinating. Thanks again!
Do we think one reason Sauron gets on the boat is because he thinks he is already plotting how to get the sigil from the kind man? He seems to be taking this one step at a time so maybe the “fake lineage” was the only play and that’s what he followed.
Don’t think this is necessarily a good plot point but just thinking it makes a little more sense.
@@iantucker5013 that was an interesting moment which seems to have gone under the radar a bit. Still doesn’t provide a satisfactory explanation of his actions for me, but who knows, maybe we’ll get to see more of his thought process later on 🤷♂️
Yeah, that's what I thought. He didn't care about the man's speech, he was focusing on the heraldry. I think he wanted to corrupt men as his new servants, and saw a chance to take the trappings of a respected authority to use for legitimacy. Traveling with them for a while before stealing the sigil let him learn their history and stories, which he needs to know if he wants to pretend to be part of them.
Reaction to Sauron. I actually loved the idea that he was winging it and adapting to circumstances. Even the choice to be the Southron king in Numenor was a throw of the dice, not a pre-ordained scheme
I thought of sarouns thinking during the boat and the journey was him plotting and think of how to get his revenge and the humans he met was just a way to pass time and maybe a curiosity about the land they were seeking. I think mainly that his plan is not formed and it was the moment when he saw galadriel that his plan formed and he saw the path he was searching for 😊
With so much reaction rage bait from youtubers this breakdown is such a breath of fresh air. I've just subscribed because thank you for being a voice of reason and education through this season. im loving the show so far.
I am almost as excited for you all's breakdown as I am for the show. Thank you for making this.
The series constructs the Mithril narrative by assuming that the light of the Two Trees of Valinor delays or even prevents fading in the elves. It is unknown how long the fading will take and where in the life cycle of the elves this event corresponds. Because no elf has ever experienced this phenomenon in Middle-earth until then. This unknown creates an area for Sauron to manipulate the elves. Mithril could be the element that will bind all the rings of power to the One Ring. This state of attachment, which is unclear in the Lore, is realized through the myth of Mithril's formation (Song of the Roots of Hithaeglir). In the formation nature of Mithril, what is represented by the Balrog (metaphorically speaking) is essentially the spiritual power (his will) that Melkor spreads to Arda. When Sauron makes the One Ring (at the point of his final return from his repentance), he inherits the Arda Marred from Melkor, so as Adar says to Galadriel, the "Shadow of the Dark Lore" (Melkor's will) that was hidden from him reveals itself to Sauron and Sauron has control over this will. As a result, the Three are bound to the One Ring with Mithril in its alloy.
The trigger of the evil spreading from Mordor is the Broken Sword. Waldreg had called that sword a "power". Sauron made this sword. It is an object he created from his spiritual power. We know that the evil spreading from this sword accelerated the withering of the tree in Lindon, caused an earthquake in Khazad-dûm and even caused Glanduin in front of Eregion to dry up according to the vision Vilya showed Gil-galad. Since the soul cannot be divided in Tolkien mythology (it is connected by being incarnated), there is a situation like quantum entanglement between the true self and its sub-creations, as claimed by spiritualist philosophy. It is normal for Sauron to have knowledge about the situations caused by objects connected to his spiritual power and to always sense them in his being. Just like he always senses the existence of the One Ring (not where it is, but whether it exists). Sauron senses this power. Therefore, I think it is natural that he would be aware of the situation in Khazad-dûm with this connection.
Corey is all-in on the Blue Wizard option, huh? I sure hope he’s right!!!
Very good. My thought is that the Stranger is Blue Wizard 2. Ciaran Hinds is Blue Wizard 1 who went bad. Hinds sends the 3 witches to find Sauron. Stranger is not Sauron but he is very powerful. Hinds believes him to be Istari. Maybe one he can align with or one he may need to fear.
sauron initially repenting and then turning back to his old ways again at the begining of the second age is such a missed opportunity for an interesting character arc. we could have had a whole episode on that, going along the lines of:
- sauron aimlessly wanders in the wild
- runs into a rag tag band of men
- initially reluctantly, he teaches them to make agriculture tools, reinforced wheels etc
- the men thrive, begin to idolize sauron, sauron begins to enjoy this role of a leader of men
- however, the men eventually prove too headstrong and chaotic to effectivelly rule over
- sauron leaves them for a century (a blink of an eye for him), and they all go back to their old ways - they stop using his tools and roll back all the previous progress, they overthrow his loyalists that hadn't already died off naturally, they forget sauron alltogether
- sauron gets driven to madness by the "aimless friction"
would have been much more interesting
The black slime reminds me of Gandalf's description of his fight with the Balrog: „Long time I fell,’ he said at last, slowly, as if thinking back with difficulty. ‘Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart...Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.“
What a wonderful intro 😃😃😃I am so happy Rings and Realms is back!
I think there is another moment of choice. When Sauron is lying on the floor, surrounded by Orcs, there is a short moment when he can see the bright light from above the cave. It's not just the sky, it's the very bright light of Anor that shines directly upon him, and he looks very young and ....innocent. Then the view is blocked again by the bodies of the Orcs, while we hear black speech in the background. Sauron closes his eyes and the decision is made. He does not repent and his spirit does not go back to Valinor to ask for forgiveness.
I am SOOOOO happy to see you folks! I was getting worried bout you folks. Can't wait to watch it!
Amazing show guys, I love being able to look forward to this after digesting the episodes for myself.
With regard to Sauron's repentance, it felt to me like it was at least somewhat genuine or at least a hopeful curiosity. Like maybe he thought "could I really change?" The moment on the boat felt like a relapse, just like anyone trying to go against years of habit or indoctrination. I think that the boat was originally headed for Numenor and when they find themselves there Sauron once again believes he can start anew. I do think that his desire was genuine while on Numenor up until that scene where he almost leaves the pouch behind. This scene to me was him finally caving to the overwhelming opportunity to realise his greater and darker ambitions. There is no one else present for that deliberation scene so I have to believe it was a genuine turning point.
Nitpick around the 52 minute mark: Celebrimbor's father was dead by the time of the Third Kinslaying. Elwing leaps to avoid Maedhros and Maglor.
Thank you for the correction
I like to think that Sauron repented for a short while, but its like Diarmid said - you have to choose to do good every day. And Sauron is just unable to do that. He will do something good one minute and then immediately do evil again because he can't help himself
I’m about as excited as I was when the first 3 episodes dropped. 😅
But why isn’t it 3 hours long?!?!?! 😂
@@bethholmes53574 2 more episodes to come before Thursday!
@@TheGregFarnumRight! I was expecting maybe nine hours before Wednesday. 😂😂😂 This is really great. 💪🏻 editing 💪🏻
EXACTLY!!!
Haha same. Saving this for later when I finish work
Man I'm more hyped on Rings and Realms then I am for Rings of Power. Thank you for this!
I think the answer for why Sauron got on the boat is made pretty clear in the intro.
Sauron, after his sort of reincarnation, has lost essentially everything. His clout, his army, maybe even his power, and he clearly is just completely apathetic to not just his original plans but life itself.
The old man tells him that where he walks will lead to death and Sauron replies by saying that's fine with him and that those who have died are lucky, clearly implying he wished to be dead himself. This is further reinforced when the fish attacks as Sauron makes no attempt to avoid the beast.
The old man then gives Sauron a speech about how you can move on from your mistakes and that they're heading towards a place where you can start a new life and get a second chance. Even if you want to believe Sauron isn't repentant here, he already doesn't have any plans for life and is completely ok with death so hitching a ride with these people if not just to listen to this old man's intriguing philosophy on life makes perfect sense for a character who has no motivation to do anything.
And speaking of the validity of Sauron's repentance, I think it's pretty clear he did repent in the story at least by the time he reached Numenor. Even if you ignore the two times in the story when Sauron outright admits he's done terrible things in the past and feels bad about it, you can just look at his central struggle on Numenor to see the difference in his character.
Sauron's main goal in life is to conquer middle earth. His inner most desire is to be a lord over creation. Yet, when Galadriel gift wraps him the opportunity to be a king to the southlands, Sauron declines and instead chooses to be a blacksmith. Why, if Sauron is unrepentent and still wants power, would he reject a free chance at power? It makes no sense.
Staying in Numenor makes sense bc they'll get Galadriel out of his hair and he can focus on corrupting Numenor. He was deciding if that would be better than trying to corrupt Galadriel
I thought he controlled the fish somewhat ..which he then does again with the warg in later episode
If you follow lore sauron will never willingly go to sea....as every dark lords servant was terrified of ulmo..and fears the sea
He lost everything? How is it possible to think that Sauron has lost everything? Surely whatever power he has still exists? He is a demi god.
At any rate how can this be clear? You're saying that he got on the boat because he got on the boat. Why didn't he walk in another direction?
And why did he end up walking back to Mordor?
And I think he walked back to Erigon In the beginning of season 2.
So I don't think it's very clear at all.
It is fanfiction
Great insight. I agree with you that he never really repented. But I think it's less about repentance and more about humility. I think he had a wet dream about winning over the masses by being a humble leader, like Gandalf would eventually be. Getting on the boat, he might just do something like take them to numenor.But then there was a sea monster and who really cares. By the time Gal shows up, he's had enough humility and it's time to soar on others wings again
Brilliant intro! Rings & Realms is one of the main reasons why I watch Rings of Power. Amazon should give you some money for the great job guys!
Squeee. So happy you guys are back. My sister and I watched all three of the released episodes and I immediately got on youtube to see if you guys were up yet. Heh.
I adore your breakdowns. As bit fan of the movies and shows, and casual reader, please keep up the great work!
Makes sense Sauron would have a very Sith “Rule of Two” attitude toward leadership, very cool! (No one needs to remind me which came first trust me I know 😂)
@@juliawold77 yeah I thought that concept of like, “Sauron needs a lieutenant” was interesting and the connection between Adar and Galadriel, both candidates for the role, was a fascinating parallel I hadn’t picked up on
The squid ink pasta form that Sauron returns to reminds me of the story Gandalf gave of the Balrog when he describes their fight in Moria, when they finally land in water after falling into the chasm. "A thing of slime..."
There is a scene where The Stranger speaks of understanding homesickness and knowing the feeling. He says at times he misses a land where he was before he came to Middle-earth but has no memory of it.
Isn't there a place in The Silmarillion of elsewhere is Tolkien's writings that "man" (humans) have a longing when they look at either sunrises or sunsets because they are reminded of their time (their immortal souls) were with Illuvatar before they were born. Or rather man's true home is with Illuvatar? I recall a scene where Aragorn has a longing when watching a sunrise or sunset. Does anyone recall that in Tolkien's writings or am I misremembering something? Dr Olsen mentions the scene @39:27.
The way i see Sauron at the beginning is that he have probably a plan of conquest in his mind but the meeting with Diarmid (the old man) and the exchange got into his head. I see him still having an end goal but he is on a crossroad and still doesn't know how exactly he will do it. Maybe, with the teaching of Diarmid, he can achieve it by trying to be good and reach for forgiveness. The end goal doesn't change but how he could obtain it, as a man, could change.
He just had the biggest blow of his life by being betray. He use the dictatorial and plain approach and he was rejected and "kill" as an enemy. The centuries of being formless and trying to regenerate was probably enough to reconsider the means to the end goal. He also try to reflect on his new form as a man and how Man can navigate through life without any kind of special power and as mortal. Diarmid conversation touch the Halbrand character and the vulnerability of wearing this form. If it was truly a chance meeting with Galadriel, he seem this as a way to capitalize on what he have learn from the old man about forgiveness (he ask Galadriel for it when he said that he was sorry) and trying to make and be good. Doesn't mean he feel that way, but to achieve his plan, he must have to embrace his Halbrand character, make some allies along the way and try to continue to crawl on top by deceiving with good intention and help. As Galadriel reject him at the end, the blow was hard. He now have been rejected by the dark and the light. So he decided to make himself beyond good and evil and screw them both without regard.
Finally, i'm not sure if it was the idea, but the black goo Sauron make a kind of evolutionary journey to the top. He have to pass through the reign of mineral, vegetal, animal then human to finally get a demigod/elven like form with Annatar. He is like a predator who crawl himself on top by preying on others.
Thank you both for this beautiful re-cap and analysis. I am very looking forward to what's to come.
Regarding Sauron joining the Southlanders on their boat: Maybe it doesn't have to be so complicated and Sauron is merely seeing an opportunity presenting itsself in form of the Southland King's tote around the old servants neck. It quickly catches his attention, and he steals it as soon as possible. In Season 1, it certainly opens up a lot of possibilities.
As Sauron (literally) rolls with the punches, I can see how this item could spark his imagination and kindle some plans.
This is the most reliable channel to get to know what is going on and what is behind in the show and Tolkien world because the resources are usually limited in my language. Love your contents from Japan.
The production value here is always impressive. Congratulations!
Thanks for everyone involved in this! especially to the amazing Maggie and Corey.
At 3:48, This is an error. Professor Tolkien did explain Saurons mindest and vision on his reasons for his surrender to evil. Author Brian Silbey organized Professor Tolkien's points in "The Down Fall of Numenor" that was published in 2022.
I have been looking forward to this as much as the actual episodes of Rings of Power! I haven’t watched it yet, but besides the gorgeous opening sequence, the moment of Corey on the ground with his eyes closed was perfect. I didn’t know what to expect prior to Maggie’s face appearing on the screen. But the production quality of Rings and Realms it is so good that it wouldn’t have surprised me if icy white light had exploded out of Corey! I can’t wait to hear what you guys have to say, but I think I’ll watch that opening sequence again a couple of times first.😂👏👏👏🔥
Minor SPOILER::
So, we do see later that the original 3 were actually touched/corrupted by Sauron. Though it's subtle and unbeknownst to anyone but perhaps Celibrimbor.
Where do we see that? I don't recall that scene.
Sauron touched the mithril that went into the molten metal for the 7 dwarves rings, not the original 3 of the elves. Halbrand left Eregion last season before the 3 were physically forged.
@@noahunsworth1290 Yes but Halbrand DID touch the Mithril that went in to the making of the 3 rings. As you'll recall he held it for quite some time and Celebrimbor became a bit antsy about it and asked him to hand it back over.
Presumably Halbrand/Sauron knew what he was doing at the time and was imbuing that Mithril with his power/essence/corruption. He has some degree of foresight.
@@EmeraldView You're right, I forgot that he touched the mithril nugget for them too. That is probably why the three rings are able to be controlled by the power of the One Ring and why the elf ringbearers have to take them off until the One Ring is cut from Sauron finger.
I am guessing that Sauron's corruption of the three is less than the rest of the rings since he only touched the mithril but did not construct or handle the finished rings themselves. I am also guessing that the pure Valinorian Gold and Silver from Finrod's dagger used for the three elvish rings may also help reduce Sauron's taint.
@@noahunsworth1290 Precisely.
Yeah when in the recent episode I noticed that Anatar/Sauron basically insisted on handling the Mithril and seemed to clearly do something with it, I recall the conversation that he never touched the 3 elven rings. So that focus on him touching the Mithril for the dwarven rings made me recall the scene where he was touching the Mithril that went into the elven rings. Nobody else other than Celebrimbor knows that and he probably doesn't think it's important since he does not know Halbrand/Anatar is Sauron. The messenger never made it to him to notify him.
Thank you for Elromd jump explanation...nobody elee got it...i also found new found reapect for the show now
I made the connection between Elrond's jump and Elwing's, but not between Gil-galad and Galadriel and the Feanorians. How interesting!
PS- Corey's mention of "glorious purpose" means that I will now always think of Sauron thinking himself "burdened with glorious purpose." :) Thanks for a great show!
Paulron?
But Elrond landed at the bottom of the sea and should have been dead.
Instead he has no mark upon him. His hair is in the same style.
And even if he would have died he would not have gotten rid of the rings they could have just searched the bottom of the water for his pouch.
I believe his actions were irrational.
@@AnnoyingCritic-is7rp I think it takes a touch of irrationality to willingly jump off a cliff 😉😅 I thought it was a bit absurd too, but the parallel with Elwing is at least a very interesting easter egg lol
@@AnnoyingCritic-is7rp
Irrational? Yes, in that way that following your intuition of what's right is often "irrational" in Tolkien. Eru moves in mysterious ways indeed.
@@AntonSmyth-od6rccope
Aulë's beard, I missed that intro music!
Yay! I'm So Happy that You & Maggie are back with your Analyses.
Also Love the Beautiful intro😊
Very well done team. I’d like at some point an analysis of the opening with the sand both from Corey and Maggie.
Not simply sound and song as a tool of creation but what is forming and visually representative and how is that connected thematically to the season
There is very much a layering of religious themes in this first episode that could use further exposition. First off, the *use of blood-like wine to transform* (e.g. with Adar.) Corey stopped short of going full Catholic with the concept of _transubstantiation_ , but it is very common in Christian belief that the communion is somehow magical, transformational. I think the writer of this episodes (and others) are very much attempting to call up the wine/blood drinking rituals of various belief systems (not just orthodox Christianity).
Yeah, the Stranger...totally a Blue Wizard! Nothing to see here. No sir 😂😂😂
Great to see this series back! It was always very enjoyable last season and I appreciate the insight shared.
Also, re: Sauron and the "black goo." Couldn't this be a reference to Gandalf's discussion of how he defeated the Balrog in Lord of the Rings? "‘Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,’ said Gandalf. ‘Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.'"
I'm interested to see his take on ep.2. There's one scene in particular that really doesn't give much room for any other identity.
@@marcos3497are you talking about the “gand” part?
@marcos3497 you mean the “gand”, like what the person before me asked? Just checked, “gand” is an old Norse word for staff. It is in “Gandalf” but the word on its own, used in the correct context, imo, isn’t very solid a point.
The Balrog had not been killed at that point.
@@davidbeer5015 It's just a very specific word that doesn't come up in language. Like Halbrand's real identity, it seems too obvious to be true, but it was.
Corey makes good points about the boat. Why does Sauron get on it? Where does he think it's going? I like to think (and this might be wishful thinking) that there is something in him striving for repentance. Maybe some deep instinct led him to long for the light of valinor once more. In S1, we're told that morgoth spent days gazing at the silmaris, enraptured by their beauty. In this show, maybe even evil things still love the light.
Then we come to Sauron's admission that he has 'done evil'. Again, it might be wishful thinking, but I see genuine repentance on Sauron's part.
Huge thanks to the Kickstarter contributors!
Incredible video and production as always, excited to dive back into these episodes as the show progresses! If I had just one remark I'd say the audio mixing on both of your voices needs a little bit more love (lacking lows in my opinion) to make this even more enjoyable :) Can't wait for the next one thank you!
They finally fixed it in episodes 5 and 6!
@@AleksiJoensuu they actually did yes! Much better! :)
I think Sauron wanted to slowly make alliances with other creatures to make it easier to take revenge on Adar and the orcs. Whether that’s Numenor or lands in the west that aren’t Valinor, or what. Because he only chose to go with the old man seemingly because of the crest of kings. His original plan was to have orcs rule over men and elves and dwarves. Then he wants to destroy the orcs with men and elves and orcs on his side. And soon he will have to use orcs to do what he wants, at least in part, but we’ll have to see how he does that…whether with a ring of power or not.
I have to say it. Elwing was wrong, not Maedhros and Maglor. Maedhros - as always - asked to give him back the Silmarill and as Dior before her Elwing refuses to give back what does not belong to her, but to the sons of Feanor. So instead of doing the right thing, she abandons her little kids (!!) and lets the people of the Havens be slaughtered and flees.
I loved this episode.... the music is amazing and it looks incredible
I've been waiting for Rings and Realms all year!
TBH I'm not really a big fan of the show... I've only watched season 2, episode 1 so far. Some things I like, some are meh and some things I could do without (rolling R's anyone?)That being said, I really enjoy Corey and Maggie's deep dive into the show. Feel free to agree or disagree with them...I count any discussion about Tolkien as a win. I look forward to future interviews and question/answer periods... should be interesting. Also love what I'm learning about filming technique!
am i the only one who has always respectfully disagreed with Corey on the black infestation of the trees in valinor? i've looked again and again and i don't see black infection. The trees are being burned and singed. the black we see is charing that is spreading and you see the leaves burning up as the camera moves up the tree.
Spoiler for episode 2!
I do think that the comparison to Feanor's sons and Gil-Galad/Galadriel is as damning to them in truth as it is in Elrond's mind. I think it shows how Elrond perceives it/them at that time. When Cirdan in season 2 tells him 'For it is not your enemy that wears these rings, but your most trusted friends', it takes some of the venom out of that scene. They weren't his enemies, that he chose to jump away from. They were his friends. And maybe, just maybe, he should allow himself to trust them a bit more. If not on the matter of the rings, at least on the matter of his own safety during these conversations.
The "Not Tolkien Professor" ! Judas took 30 pieces of silver to betray Jesus, Dr Olsen was bought for far less.
Vows are super important and utterly binding in Tolkien's mythology. Galadriel utters a vow in these episodes, to never rest until Sauron is defeated. I think the kind of _does rest_ in this quest as she's not exactly firing on all cylinders, especially in the later days of the Third Age. She's absolutely resisting, and supporting, but not as active as one might have been. I think she is kind of resting, when she's cooped up in Lorien after kicking Sauron's butt in Dol Guldur.
Good stuff. at 44:26 had never really considered before that it must have been absolute torture for Christopher to not be able to just ask his dad for answers to some of the questions he had reading through his notes over the years.
Mae Govannen.
I was waiting when will u be uploading this. It's been a while my friend and thank you.
Being able to look forward to both a new episode of RoP and R&R each week is wonderful
Thank you! Here to repeat the journey of S 1: watch an episode, then watch this and Nerd's breakdowns.
Have only watched E1 yet so will be back later this week for the rest.
THE INTRODUCTION SO WOWWWWWWW!!!! THIS IS THE MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE ANALYSIS EVER A LOT OF ASPECTS WE CAN LEARN. THANK YOU SIR AND MADAM FOR YOUR INTELLIGENT WORK REALLY APPRECIATE IT DEEPLY FROM MY HEART! BIG LOVE FROM MALAYSIA...
Sauron saw the medal on the old man and got an idea for a plan. I will pose as king of the Southlands. You all missed it
Oh my gosh!!!!!! You guys!!!!!! This is incredible! I had no idea we were getting this quality of work, so amazing! ❤🎉
Getting real tired of all the rage-farming channels hating on the show based on their supposed (and very close-minded) biases. Glad there is a channel that does some actual open-minded analyzing! Glad you are back in full swing again!
Mostly bigots just incensed that there are black elves and hobbits.
I think that Sauron just liked the idea of being good and wanted to play with it. To test what a different path would be like.
Once the monster destroyed the boat, he remembered death is everywhere and how middle earth is corrupted. So he decided to follow his plan of evil and conquest.
Now that i think about it. The meeting between Galadriel and Sauron was providential because they are sharing a parallel and the same kind of origin story. The two was call from a place in the West that require a sea voyage. I don't really know what place Diarmid was talking about but it was a place with hope and goodness. Galadriel have also to go to that place of light and hope (Valinor). The two of them were at a crossroad of a dilemma and one was on a quest for revenge and the other for power. Galadriel choose to stay in Middle Earth by keep navigating to the darkness. So the monster was sent to attack the boat so she can meet Halbrand on the raft. Sauron could not go to the good place because Galadriel could not go there either. If Galadriel cannot find peace, Sauron cannot either. Sauron need to find forgiveness for himself that only Galadriel can provide for him to be free and he fail because he didn't choose the path of humility. Galadriel needed Sauron to heal by letting go her quest for vengeance represented by the dagger.
The dagger and the pouch had a similar purpose. Two temptations, the dagger symbolize the temptation for revenge and the pouch the temptation for power. The two objects were taking from the dead and dark intention was still lying within them. At the end, when the choice arrive, Sauron cannot let go of the pouch and didn't make the sacrifice to end his quest for power but Galadriel could let herself free from the dagger. Diarmid tell Sauron how he could have look at the pouch and change the purpose of it. To make it change from a symbol of power to a symbol of humility and a reminder of his humiliation as he fell from power centuries ago. Sauron fail. Galadriel change the power of the dagger by making something to heal and save the elves out of love. She was able to make the sacrifice and let go her quest for revenge. Galadriel succeed.
Great start to Rings & Realms season 2... Bravi, Corey and Maggie!!
I actually came here to say what I think several other commenters have already picked up on. You may not be satisfied that there is sufficient motive for Sauron to get on the boat, but it's easier to swallow if you consider Sauron to be in a middle state, having neither resolved to repent nor to scheme. I think this accounts for the visual cues that Maggie brilliantly observed, which indicate neither motion toward nor motion away from Mordor. His decision to follow the men could come from a state of mind in flux--a mere search for new opportunity. Because what awaits him in Mordor? Just death... either he destroys the rebellious orcs or they destroy him again. If he follows the men, who knows what might present itself?
For my part, that is enough rationale to consider his actions convincing for the sake of the story. I've certainly gone along with flimsier pretenses in other shows.
Yeeesss! Been waiting for this one all week. Thank you for everything you guys are doing this season 🌋
Thank you for being a channel that actually has a positive thing to say about this show. All I see on UA-cam and across the internet is so much hate
@@primal1233 missed opportunity to actually talk about Tolkien imo, disappointing that so many people are caught up in the hate train. Oh well, hopefully the real fans will prevail in time
Agree. Usually by people that think being utterly literal "Sauron is an actual eye" 😂 was inspired.
The hate has become a simple social contagion at this point. Just like with alt-right men and Star Wars.
Sadly being a rage baiting outrage farmer gets more clicks. Especially when people already decided to hate the show before season one even premiered. Mostly because of black elves, and dwarves. So a good chunk of the internet does not want a thoughtful, and good faith analysis by people who are very thoroughly versed in Tolkien's mythos. They want they contempt for the show to be validated. Which is why a channel like this with this title will get a fraction of the views that a video from a channel like CriticalDrinker, who has already established himself as an "Anti-woke" creator, with a title like "SEASON 2 IS AN ABOMINATION TO TOLKIEN!" will.
This is the sad state of affair with media in general these days. Many people have decided that any piece of media is either going to be perfection to be lauded, or a trash fire to be reviled, depending on which boxes it checks.
It could just be that I've blocked so many haters that Twitter has stopped showing me their tweets, but I see a lot less blind hatred this time around. During season 1, you could hardly go to any post about RoP without seeing hundreds, if not thousands, of hate-posts (often just copying and pasting the same misquote). Now, it seems that the hate-posts are a small minority. I think many of the genuine Tolkien fans who disliked the show have actually moved on, just leaving the dedicated haters who haven't yet gotten the memo that there are new things out to hate.
AAAAA! Im frealing out as if my favourite boy band just dropped a new single!
AAAAAAAAA RINGS AND REALMS IS BACK!
Hey Corey and Maggie! Wonderful breakdown (and many kudos to Jordan for the amazing soundscape!).
Quick question. Around the 22:00 mark, you mention how the Three Rings are indeed not tainted by Sauron. However, at the destruction of the One Ring at the end of RotK, we're told that their Rings lost their power. How is this so if they weren't tainted in any way? Did they only become so after the forging of the One?
This channel is gold! Thanks for your expertise, insights, passion and not spreading hate, like many other channels! True Tolkien hearts! ❤
I think Sauron is walking slowly towards Mordor, thinking about how he is going to regain power, kill Adar? How to do it? And then the old man catches his attention because he talks about how the most powerful can fall, but what, (and I think this is what decides Sauron): when one path closes, another opens and it can be better... and Sauron decides to try. As always, he has a bit of a cowardly side and escapes. And it works out very well for him...
Well done! I've been thinking about the scene with Círdan on the boat - what does Corey think about the possibility of the bumping wave being Ulmo's doing?
@@Fallaryn hmm, idk, direct interventions by the Valar are rare, and also perhaps more importantly, Cirdan becoming enamored of the rings (or whatever exactly happened there) is interrupting Iluvatar’s process as Corey said, the natural progression of the Eldar’s fading and departure to Valinor. Basically it’s at odds with what the Valar presumably desire, for the elves to return to the Undying Lands, so Ulmo intervening would be odd
@@Flash4ML I understand that perspective, which could mean it was the rings creating that wave to save themselves. Where I'm at in this question is based on the possibility that Sauron's return and spreading darkness is connected to the presumed accelerated fading of the Eldar, and Ulmo is known to be the most involved of the Valar. That perhaps Ulmo is aware of Sauron's increasing presence and urged Círdan to use the rings to stave off the fading until Sauron is defeated.
He definitely gives off evil vibes when he snatches the necklace and refuses to save the old man... although, a small part of that might be what he said earlier about Mordor. "Maybe they [the ones who died] were the lucky ones". So he might be thinking "ooooh shiny, also I guess its better for this dude to drown now then possibly starve to death on a raft".
I'm so glad someone is finally identifying The Stranger as a Blue Wizard. The not-Saruman is likely the other Blue Wizard. They are the characters most open to adaption, since Tolkien said so little about them. They're only associated with Rhun and the East. They likely arrived at the same time which is consistent with the lore
Falsely identifying
@@lysaai What makes you say that?
Having them be the blue wizards is just as stupid as having Gandalf in the show. Take all of Tolkien away and this show is just objectively bad!
@@skilljoy9246 Why would it be stupid of them to be Blue Wizards?
@@jj48blue wizards came together by boat not by meteor, and also traveled together to the east! Having just one blue wizard makes no sense and we’ll just repurpose all of Gandalfs lines so that it looks like Gandalf got all his sayings from this blue wizard, who he can’t even remember! Just like having two Durin’s exist at the same time, guess everything the dwarves believe goes right out the window.
Very excited for more Rings and Realms!
I have to mention, it seems like something is off with the audio? Your voice recordings seem very thin and low volume compared to other channels.
I agree. The visuals are brilliant though!
I've been looking forward to these: more Tolkien ideas to think about! Yay!
I also think the Sauron spaghetti monster look is from princess Mononoke that diseased boar 🐗
So excited that rings and realms is back!! Thank you!
the eldar spirits and forms was designed to be tied to arda, as arda ages they very slowly also "age" by "fading" their spirit slowly consume their shells or forms and they must either live on as spiritless forms or leave arda as it ages, this is the order and natural design by Eru, however, it is possible that the sudden rapid "fading" could be "accelerated"" by the influence of the re-emergence of Sauron and him spreading his malice and evil intent over Arda and effecting men and other forms of life.
the 3 rings stayed this effect by "insulating" the Eldar as a race from the evil spreading, returning or halting the process back to normal "rate", so that they would go back to slowly, in time scales of men and beast so long it would never be comprehended, fading with the slow fading of Arda itself.
they are bound to Arda and their spirits can even be returned there to a new body or same body even after death if so approved by Eru.
i see no issue with the rapid fading if you put it into a short term context of Sauron's influence which is solved with the 3 rings of power, even tho it did not eliminate Sauron, it did halt the effect upon their accelerated decline or fading, which forced them to leave Arda in the 3rd to 4th age.