I find that my campaigns often transition from one type of adventure to another. They start out as somewhat free wheeling location based adventures. As the party begin to meet people, make friends, and earn enemies the campaign begins to feature character based adventures. Then as the plot begins to emerge from the increasingly complex interactions it builds into more narrative event based adventures.
Character driven adventures happen organically through play and that's what makes them wonderful. I could never come up with such a cool adventure without the context of the preceding character choices. I think it's the highest form in gaming interaction there is.
Hi Daniel. I really appreciate your take on the game - I only play 5e but use a lot of the OSR influence in the way I run the game. I find your videos always inspire me to find a synthesis of the old and new ways of play. Many thanks and keep dishing out great advice. (also enjoying your podcasts!)
My players had several roleplay heavy, emotional sessions in a row because one of them made some choices that screwed over the whole party (long story but while the PCs are BIG MAD at that PC the players themselves are all enjoying the fallout and story). Anyway, I didn't want to ruin the really good story being told by handwaving anything, but I also was like, we very much need something nice this session for them to enjoy. So when they got on board the ship they hired to flee the island they discovered that the captain has a troop of trained lemurs. When I say they were delighted that is not a strong enough word. I narrated SO MUCH lemur interaction that session in-between other things. But it brought the mood up without undoing the story elements. I think it really comes down to the knowing the players and in this case knowing that getting to play with some cute animals would go a long way toward getting everyone's mood up again.
"Listen to your players. They will let you know which NPCs they love or hate," has been my advice when talking to other GMs about getting players emotionally invested. There can be so many factors involved in what NPCs players will fixate on I don't try and guess anymore. I just know I have to be ready to flesh out any NPC that could enter the party's field of vision. I've played with people who will adopt the most random NPCs like bouncers or NPCs who are hostile due to circumstance but can be talked out of combat.
Here's a fun twist for you. That NPC that was your friend and who helped you and you helped them. Well, it turns out that they are actually the bad guy! So now you have a choice. They are your friend but you need to stop them but you don't want to kill them and you would hate to put them in prison. So what would/could you do?
I think the best campaigns are those where the PCs are driving the story. They’re engaged and your job is to mess with their plans. Burning Wheel does this really well. Session zero is all about the Situation and conflict arc the table wants to see happen. Then the players make their characters and wrote 3 Beliefs (pc goals) onto their character sheets. The GM jobs is to come up with hooks, scenarios that engages one or more of these. It’s fool proof.
Thanks for dealing with this topic! Making the stakes of the adventure personal is a great concept. It makes the game more interesting than having a generic threat. And I would also say that the advice about keeping the scope of the story more focused is spot-on. However, I will also say that there is a difference between an adventure which the Game Master tailors to my character (by threatening someone he personally cares about), and a case where my character has his own specific objectives (and I'm telling the GM, as a player, that "my character wants to do X,Y, and Z"). The first case will depend on the GM deciding to tailor things to fit my character. The second case can happen whether the GM wants it to or not. I would say that the first case is a character-tailored adventure, whereas the second case is a character-driven adventure. Although I'm not concerned about specific terminology, it doesn't matter which term is used for what. But IMO there is a valid distinction to be made between these two things. And I'll add that most Game Masters I've dealt with do *not* seem to be huge fans of this kind of character driven action (meaning the kind where the players are telling them what their characters are planning to do).
Ironsworn does this quite well. Yeh, it's a solo game but it's very easy to play as what it calls a 'guided' game. There's even an actual Move, it's PbtA, to form a bond and then those bonds become part of your character's growth and can even be assets or hazards in future play. It's pretty cool.
I give up the spotlight, as the DM. I have already created the world/setting and I populate it with real feeling locations and peoples. Character driven stories; I define as the players, driving the story. The latest group were on their way to, 'The Keep on the Borderlands'. But I had to hold off on that; for a few sessions, while the group planned and carried off a mass burglary in the kingdom. I used the narrative gap, to flesh out the local nobility and rough geography. Introduced a monster and have developed a relationship, between it and one of the player characters. Then threw in a couple of events, around those elements. It's the players' choices, that cause changes and upheavels. Creating tensions, or amplifying ones that already existed. They create the recipe, I just flavour and season it. According to what makes the most sense, for the factions, setting and environment.
Two went with orphans, then freaked out when they realised I wasn’t going to ignore that! I did ask them to ask questions every session, usually only got responses when I asked them questions!
interesting! i would not have guessed that a BX player enjoyed character-driven play! I always got a bit of a "don't get attached to your character; they're going to die" vibe from the OSR community.
Some seem to promote that, but it is certainly not the norm in my experience - levels are hard earned and keeping your character alive and growing in the fiction is the goal.
You and KR both seem to stream ideas as I am working on such a thing! My current campaign has this running thing. It began with a letter to return a Halfling Farmer’s kidnapped teenager daughter. Now, four years later it turns out she has a family curse, black dragon bloodline sorcery, and is desired by an ancestor to become their vessel (Pointy Hat - Sorcerer Lich build - pretty cool)! And there are other characters in their community that have various levels of pull, drawing the PC’s to be involved. If you have not noticed, I think about this stuff all the time! Thanks for feeding my habit!!! 😅😂😂😂😂❤😂😂😂
I run for two decades now character driven games, and design my own system for that purpose. And I have to say, no, the character should not just be a skin or fancy hat for the player. There needs to be more to the character than that, something the player whats to express something the player whats to explore about the human condition. Since if they don't do that, then it is not character driven but player driven, and that is how you get meaningless sandbox games that have nothing to say about the human condition. And no, a character driven adventure is not based on something has gone wrong, that is makes the character only reacting and the adventure is pretty much then event based again. Character driven means the character wants something but faces then a dilemma, thus they have to make proactive choices, and often make bad choices that gets them deeper into trouble, and that is why it cannot be based on the player, since players don't like to be seen as stupid for making bad choices, but character driven narratives require that. And that is why prep for character driven narratives is by talking with the players about what drives the characters and what is a misconception they have about the world that leads them to make bad choices, and then you as GM create dilemmas or even trilemmas about things, best based o things the characters kick started on their own first. People being captured, owning money, the crops are bad, there is a war, that is all event based sandbox campaigns, but not character driven campaigns, since like I said, their decisions are there just reactive and not proactive and thus not in the driver seat.
Super topic -- I love this! Not every adventure needs to have the existence of the world hanging in the balance. The difficulty I have is HOW to get the PCs to "care" about a specific NPC. You indicate that you know the players well enough to know that they (the person) will have a character that cares about XYZ. You also indicate that watching the RP between PC and NPC gives clues. Ive been DMing for decades and STILL cant think of more than 3 or 4 times when the players have CARED about an NPC to this extent. My failure, absolutely. Any advice on how to begin to instill this attitude?
@@BanditsKeep OK this is my second pass at a reply because, as I was writing the first one, this thought came to me --> Do I have recurring NPCs? Yes, but perhaps the issue is I have too MANY? In the large village they are currently using as their base there are 22 named NPCs. Most of them have interacted with the PCs -- there are a couple who were mentioned as plot hooks and a few who are part of ongoing "intrigue." But... 22 with names, faces, stories, etc. Could it be that I am spreading their interest too thinly?
@@timothylamont845 that could be it. My players tend to latch onto NPCs that they have an important interaction with. For instance they rescued a mute boy and took him into service, a hobbit who was pretending to be a magician so asked lots of questions of the magic users had also joined the party.
My current game (Using Low Fantasy Gaming ruleset) is 100% PC driven, it is basically all about their rise to riches and glory. I personally have enjoyed this much more than any of my "created" games (Stopped doing those after discovering how awesome random tables are heh)
My last game originally a one shot that was expanding into a campaign I did my best to make it character driven. One kept quiet another ran in the opposite direction and the 3rd who runs his own campaign whose actions inspired mine jumped settings despite that not being possible without cooperation but he didn’t give a damn about either game!
Character-Driven / Location / Plot > situation ... [I dislike the word plot, location and character are plot] As old GM i do also "metaphore driven" and "DM Driven" A metaphore driven is : What make "hope", who is "hope". And i make my player turn around the concepte and each scenne is metaphorical... Hard to make, but my favorite way of playing ^^. [Personification of a concepte into a carracter, make very cool PNJ] "DM Driven" = I do the Game-Master job, i do all pnc and do the rules. And i have player who play the heros. And a DM > a DUNGEON MASTER. Who play the evil Dungeon Master, who play the evil guy who gonna trie to... "take over the world ?"/ "Open the plan of chocolate" / "Create a corrupted utopie" ... any idea of a player ^^ My party love my way of play ^^
Not related to the video but how is a dm supposed to deal with players in regards to the map in a dungeon? Like if there is a secret passage the players will immediatly know of it if they can see it, but if you dont show the map you dont have the grid for the miniatures to fight on. Also if you have a megadungeon you will have to print/draw hundreds of pages and organising them will be hell!
@@BanditsKeep That sounds like a lot of trouble to describe it good enough since their perception of the room has to be fairly good to allow for combat. Or do you not use miniatures for combat?
In his game he made me re roll saves rather than focus on his game. When that character is wearing a periapt of health making them reroll saves vs seasickness makes no sense!
@@BanditsKeep Modified rules for DnD 5e, I’ve run a couple of one shots with the system as practice and it’s worked out great so far so hopefully it holds up in a full campaign! 🤞
All adventures in D&D should be character-driven. Specifically, PLAYER Characters. The PCs should always be the main focus and main characters of the story. Never negate the players when they want to do or say something that develops the personality of their characters or the plot. Never say no unless someone else in the group strongly objects and has a good reason to object. Instead, whether you're the DM or another player, say "Yes! And ..." then build on that idea to make it even better and more fun for everyone. Also, look into the 13th Age "Icon" concept and how every character has "Icon Relationships." This doesn't mean the "Icons (big movers and shakers)" are the main characters, but rather the PCs are the main characters and their relationships with other important characters help to build the PCs' stories and personalities.
Something went wrong- you might lose my video at points but sound is good. - not sure why.
Gremlins.
Characters are why The Seven Samurai (1950s) is the greatest movie of all time.
Yes
I find that my campaigns often transition from one type of adventure to another. They start out as somewhat free wheeling location based adventures. As the party begin to meet people, make friends, and earn enemies the campaign begins to feature character based adventures. Then as the plot begins to emerge from the increasingly complex interactions it builds into more narrative event based adventures.
Same for me
An now i remember why i put a snake cult therein the city for then to rob.
You mean all the money is in a pity full of snakes?
Character driven adventures happen organically through play and that's what makes them wonderful. I could never come up with such a cool adventure without the context of the preceding character choices. I think it's the highest form in gaming interaction there is.
For sure
Hi Daniel. I really appreciate your take on the game - I only play 5e but use a lot of the OSR influence in the way I run the game. I find your videos always inspire me to find a synthesis of the old and new ways of play. Many thanks and keep dishing out great advice. (also enjoying your podcasts!)
Awesome, thanks! I definitely fall into the OSR is a play style not a system camp and really enjoyed running 5e
"Beating on Orphans". Lol. Now, that's evil...
Indeed!
Joker: But it's so much fun! *grabs crowbar*
Depends on the orphan
:)
But orphans are my ranger's favored enemy
My players had several roleplay heavy, emotional sessions in a row because one of them made some choices that screwed over the whole party (long story but while the PCs are BIG MAD at that PC the players themselves are all enjoying the fallout and story). Anyway, I didn't want to ruin the really good story being told by handwaving anything, but I also was like, we very much need something nice this session for them to enjoy. So when they got on board the ship they hired to flee the island they discovered that the captain has a troop of trained lemurs.
When I say they were delighted that is not a strong enough word. I narrated SO MUCH lemur interaction that session in-between other things. But it brought the mood up without undoing the story elements. I think it really comes down to the knowing the players and in this case knowing that getting to play with some cute animals would go a long way toward getting everyone's mood up again.
That’s so amazing
"Listen to your players. They will let you know which NPCs they love or hate," has been my advice when talking to other GMs about getting players emotionally invested. There can be so many factors involved in what NPCs players will fixate on I don't try and guess anymore. I just know I have to be ready to flesh out any NPC that could enter the party's field of vision. I've played with people who will adopt the most random NPCs like bouncers or NPCs who are hostile due to circumstance but can be talked out of combat.
For sure
I just wanted to say thank you for your uploading schedule.
Thanks for watching, I do try to be consistent
Here's a fun twist for you.
That NPC that was your friend and who helped you and you helped them.
Well, it turns out that they are actually the bad guy! So now you have a choice. They are your friend but you need to stop them but you don't want to kill them and you would hate to put them in prison.
So what would/could you do?
Indeed!
These are fun for me too!!! Agree that short stories make it easier and more enjoyable. Thanks Daniel!
For sure
I think the best campaigns are those where the PCs are driving the story. They’re engaged and your job is to mess with their plans. Burning Wheel does this really well. Session zero is all about the Situation and conflict arc the table wants to see happen. Then the players make their characters and wrote 3 Beliefs (pc goals) onto their character sheets. The GM jobs is to come up with hooks, scenarios that engages one or more of these. It’s fool proof.
Cool. BW is a bit more formalized in that way than I like but it definitely is the same concept.
Thanks for dealing with this topic! Making the stakes of the adventure personal is a great concept. It makes the game more interesting than having a generic threat. And I would also say that the advice about keeping the scope of the story more focused is spot-on.
However, I will also say that there is a difference between an adventure which the Game Master tailors to my character (by threatening someone he personally cares about), and a case where my character has his own specific objectives (and I'm telling the GM, as a player, that "my character wants to do X,Y, and Z").
The first case will depend on the GM deciding to tailor things to fit my character. The second case can happen whether the GM wants it to or not.
I would say that the first case is a character-tailored adventure, whereas the second case is a character-driven adventure. Although I'm not concerned about specific terminology, it doesn't matter which term is used for what. But IMO there is a valid distinction to be made between these two things.
And I'll add that most Game Masters I've dealt with do *not* seem to be huge fans of this kind of character driven action (meaning the kind where the players are telling them what their characters are planning to do).
I personally love when my players have character goals and let me know what they plan to do - very fun!
@@BanditsKeep : That is very nice to hear! Unfortunately, not all GMs feel the same way. But I'm glad you do. 🙂
Ironsworn does this quite well. Yeh, it's a solo game but it's very easy to play as what it calls a 'guided' game. There's even an actual Move, it's PbtA, to form a bond and then those bonds become part of your character's growth and can even be assets or hazards in future play. It's pretty cool.
Cool! I’ve heard a lot about Ironsworn but haven’t tried it yet
I give up the spotlight, as the DM. I have already created the world/setting and I populate it with real feeling locations and peoples.
Character driven stories; I define as the players, driving the story. The latest group were on their way to, 'The Keep on the Borderlands'. But I had to hold off on that; for a few sessions, while the group planned and carried off a mass burglary in the kingdom.
I used the narrative gap, to flesh out the local nobility and rough geography. Introduced a monster and have developed a relationship, between it and one of the player characters. Then threw in a couple of events, around those elements.
It's the players' choices, that cause changes and upheavels. Creating tensions, or amplifying ones that already existed. They create the recipe, I just flavour and season it. According to what makes the most sense, for the factions, setting and environment.
Nice
Two went with orphans, then freaked out when they realised I wasn’t going to ignore that!
I did ask them to ask questions every session, usually only got responses when I asked them questions!
Sometimes it takes a while for a player to get comfortable in the character
interesting! i would not have guessed that a BX player enjoyed character-driven play! I always got a bit of a "don't get attached to your character; they're going to die" vibe from the OSR community.
Some seem to promote that, but it is certainly not the norm in my experience - levels are hard earned and keeping your character alive and growing in the fiction is the goal.
another great video Daniel!
Thank You!
You and KR both seem to stream ideas as I am working on such a thing! My current campaign has this running thing. It began with a letter to return a Halfling Farmer’s kidnapped teenager daughter. Now, four years later it turns out she has a family curse, black dragon bloodline sorcery, and is desired by an ancestor to become their vessel (Pointy Hat - Sorcerer Lich build - pretty cool)! And there are other characters in their community that have various levels of pull, drawing the PC’s to be involved. If you have not noticed, I think about this stuff all the time! Thanks for feeding my habit!!! 😅😂😂😂😂❤😂😂😂
Nice!
Love this idea.
Thank You!
Another great video. This guy is gold. If you want to be a GM/DM. Watch these videos.
Thank You!
I run for two decades now character driven games, and design my own system for that purpose. And I have to say, no, the character should not just be a skin or fancy hat for the player. There needs to be more to the character than that, something the player whats to express something the player whats to explore about the human condition. Since if they don't do that, then it is not character driven but player driven, and that is how you get meaningless sandbox games that have nothing to say about the human condition. And no, a character driven adventure is not based on something has gone wrong, that is makes the character only reacting and the adventure is pretty much then event based again. Character driven means the character wants something but faces then a dilemma, thus they have to make proactive choices, and often make bad choices that gets them deeper into trouble, and that is why it cannot be based on the player, since players don't like to be seen as stupid for making bad choices, but character driven narratives require that. And that is why prep for character driven narratives is by talking with the players about what drives the characters and what is a misconception they have about the world that leads them to make bad choices, and then you as GM create dilemmas or even trilemmas about things, best based o things the characters kick started on their own first. People being captured, owning money, the crops are bad, there is a war, that is all event based sandbox campaigns, but not character driven campaigns, since like I said, their decisions are there just reactive and not proactive and thus not in the driver seat.
Great feedback, but let’s agree to disagree.
Great video. Informative
Thank You!
One day I’ll forget about his mess.
One day…
Indeed
Super topic -- I love this! Not every adventure needs to have the existence of the world hanging in the balance. The difficulty I have is HOW to get the PCs to "care" about a specific NPC. You indicate that you know the players well enough to know that they (the person) will have a character that cares about XYZ. You also indicate that watching the RP between PC and NPC gives clues. Ive been DMing for decades and STILL cant think of more than 3 or 4 times when the players have CARED about an NPC to this extent. My failure, absolutely. Any advice on how to begin to instill this attitude?
That’s a really great question. Do you typically have recurring NPCs?
@@BanditsKeep OK this is my second pass at a reply because, as I was writing the first one, this thought came to me --> Do I have recurring NPCs? Yes, but perhaps the issue is I have too MANY? In the large village they are currently using as their base there are 22 named NPCs. Most of them have interacted with the PCs -- there are a couple who were mentioned as plot hooks and a few who are part of ongoing "intrigue." But... 22 with names, faces, stories, etc. Could it be that I am spreading their interest too thinly?
@@timothylamont845 that could be it. My players tend to latch onto NPCs that they have an important interaction with. For instance they rescued a mute boy and took him into service, a hobbit who was pretending to be a magician so asked lots of questions of the magic users had also joined the party.
@@BanditsKeep Awesome! Thanks very much Daniel!
My current game (Using Low Fantasy Gaming ruleset) is 100% PC driven, it is basically all about their rise to riches and glory.
I personally have enjoyed this much more than any of my "created" games (Stopped doing those after discovering how awesome random tables are heh)
Awesome
I assume you’ll be switching to Tales of Argosa …
@@MisterWebb I’m definitely going to give it a shot.
My last game originally a one shot that was expanding into a campaign I did my best to make it character driven.
One kept quiet another ran in the opposite direction and the 3rd who runs his own campaign whose actions inspired mine jumped settings despite that not being possible without cooperation but he didn’t give a damn about either game!
Some players are more in it for the social aspect
Character-Driven / Location / Plot > situation ... [I dislike the word plot, location and character are plot]
As old GM i do also "metaphore driven" and "DM Driven"
A metaphore driven is : What make "hope", who is "hope". And i make my player turn around the concepte and each scenne is metaphorical... Hard to make, but my favorite way of playing ^^. [Personification of a concepte into a carracter, make very cool PNJ]
"DM Driven" = I do the Game-Master job, i do all pnc and do the rules. And i have player who play the heros. And a DM > a DUNGEON MASTER. Who play the evil Dungeon Master, who play the evil guy who gonna trie to... "take over the world ?"/ "Open the plan of chocolate" / "Create a corrupted utopie" ... any idea of a player ^^
My party love my way of play ^^
Cool
The first 15 seconds are black with just a voice 🤣
As I watch the video the camera seems to cut out a few times but audio continues seamlessly.
Weird
It happens a couple times throughout the video. 😱
@@BanditsKeep , not to take away for your video or your points. Good advice as usual, Daniel! Thanks for the upload.
@@Slit518 thanks for letting me know, so weird that happened, but as long as the sound is good, no reason to pull it
Not related to the video but how is a dm supposed to deal with players in regards to the map in a dungeon? Like if there is a secret passage the players will immediatly know of it if they can see it, but if you dont show the map you dont have the grid for the miniatures to fight on.
Also if you have a megadungeon you will have to print/draw hundreds of pages and organising them will be hell!
I describe the space and what the PCs can see and they draw their own map.
@@BanditsKeep That sounds like a lot of trouble to describe it good enough since their perception of the room has to be fairly good to allow for combat. Or do you not use miniatures for combat?
@@LordOfFlies I rarely use miniatures for combat - but if I do I just draw the one room on a wet erase mat.
@@BanditsKeep Ok, thanks!
In his game he made me re roll saves rather than focus on his game.
When that character is wearing a periapt of health making them reroll saves vs seasickness makes no sense!
That does seem odd
Perfect video as I’m about to run a Western campaign, thanks!
Nice! What systems are you using?
@@BanditsKeep Modified rules for DnD 5e, I’ve run a couple of one shots with the system as practice and it’s worked out great so far so hopefully it holds up in a full campaign! 🤞
@@Ocelotking8 awesome! Let me know how it works out long term
All adventures in D&D should be character-driven. Specifically, PLAYER Characters. The PCs should always be the main focus and main characters of the story. Never negate the players when they want to do or say something that develops the personality of their characters or the plot. Never say no unless someone else in the group strongly objects and has a good reason to object. Instead, whether you're the DM or another player, say "Yes! And ..." then build on that idea to make it even better and more fun for everyone. Also, look into the 13th Age "Icon" concept and how every character has "Icon Relationships." This doesn't mean the "Icons (big movers and shakers)" are the main characters, but rather the PCs are the main characters and their relationships with other important characters help to build the PCs' stories and personalities.
For sure