"F**k Those Guys, We're Number One": How an NBA Owner Fleeced America | PTFO
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- Mat Ishbia is a housing tycoon, and he was supposed to insulate the NBA's house from disgrace. But eye-opening new reporting from investigative startup Hunterbrook Media alleges that Ishbia's company became the country's largest mortgage lender with "a lie." Hunterbrook's Sam Koppelman examines how the owner's competitive management style parallels his approach to basketball and why Ishbia could even be forced to sell the Suns, while Pablo explores how Ishbia's childhood hero - Isiah Thomas - fits into how both the Suns and United Wholesale Mortgage have been operating, behind closed doors.
Further reading:
"The Lie That Made UWM America's Largest Mortgage Lender"
hntrbrk.com/ - Спорт
Pablo, you’ve done it again. Rare to find this level of reporting and information with elite entertainment value still
Also billionaires are nearly impossible to fell in the US so I gotta see more before writing off Ishbia
If this leads to something big and people going down then…this guy, Pulitzer, collision course. Even episodes I think I’d have no interest in I get drawn in. Great work Pablo.
Who cares about Pulitzers? Especially in journalism, where it is so obviously not given for journalistic excellence, but given instead for politics...
Worked for UWM for almost 4 years. I saw that place quadruple in size. I am not surprised about all this information about Mat. While this was going on he was stepping on the heads of his workers that looked up to him when first being hired. The micro managing, the minimal pay, harassment, and COVID protocol all being covered up by "fun" dance parties and free cookies and pizza. I personally think karma will catch up to big daddy mat and if I could be part of the karma I would be more than happy. Just like these home buyers that have gotten tricked into higher closing costs and rates. I was tricked into thinking Mat and UWM valued me and my time as an employee.
Rest assured. Dude is not even pretending
THIS, is where a brilliant team of journalists and guest gather to tell the stories that we need to hear. Thank you.
I worked for quicken loans right when they were transitioning into rocket mortgage… and I can honestly say the same about that company except everything is on a need to know basis and people will die for their way of living. A very cut throat industry indeed and for some I don’t how they sleep at night.
UWM stock already down 20%. Good reporting.
Time to go buy
It’s back up :/
@@NotADoctor330 Thanks for the dip to buy in, Pablo!
@@solidghus4799 unlucky I missed this ep when it originally dropped. Left a 17% swing on the table
I love listening to stories like this. Thank you Pablo. Keep this up, no more reality show content.
Top notch investigative journalism!
Why does there always have to be a nepo DJ involved?
99% of DJs are nepo kid's lol
@@patrickmcpartland1398 definitely true of any white DJs you come across
18:10 you can tell he’s super blowed out on this voicemail sheesh I know coke when I hear it lol
Thank you again and again Pablo Torre and the PTFO staff and journalist at meadowlark for all that u do.
a billionaire acting immorally. insert shocked pikachu face
For anyone interested, the video of UWM ringing the NYSE closing bell is on UA-cam. I’m not linking to it since PTFO made a concerted effort to keep that (actually loyalist) NC “independent” mortgage-broker’s identity confidential.
Also Pablo has been filling in on PTI for years now.
I've wanted to hear stories about the owner of the Phoenix Suns. Thank you Pablo.
I used to work for this company (July 2021 - January 2023) at the bottom of their employee roster.
The next bit of reporting needs to be done on the working conditions for the employees top to bottom there. That’s another eye opener.
Thank you for this reporting, thank you for this video.
I feel bad for Suns fans. They deserve a better owner.
disgruntled fired ex-employee.. have heard this story 1000 times from those who are always bottom of the roster.
Rocket also has terrible work conditions, from stories of my friends in the Detrot area.
Rockets working conditions are far worse than UWM... But when you label it as "conditions" you make it sound like sweat shops. The problem is they demand you work literally your life away, the amount of hours and the micromanagement and the non-stop culture, you literally get almost written up if you take a restroom break without asking for permission and scheduling it far outside of your slots to be on the phones... so what, you are expected to work extremely hard and long hours... but to try to label "terrible working conditions" on just UWM as if a crime has been committed is just stupid and disengenuous!! This is clearly backed by Dan Gilbert because Rocket is getting their ass kicked by UWM, and because everything UWM is being accused of, is what Rocket does every day... their loan costs are the highest in the industry, UWM only charges an underwriting fee of $1110, and then an $8 Flood Cert, $85 Tax Service, and $24.95 MERS fee..... that's it... rocket starts out with $1650 Origination charge alone... so to say UWM is charging insane illegal loan fees is a flat out LIE!!! This lawsuit will go nowhere!! Fake News
Excellent work as always!!!
this is really good and really necessary journalism. kudos to you all.
Wait, the mortgage system is not in the best interests of the citizens who use it to purchase homes? Banks aren't into the whole peak capitalism thing.
I live in NC. This lady needs to go down. People here are struggling to buy homes and this woman is exploiting their trust.
Congratulations Pablo Torre. Second only to the flagship "Dan LeBatard Show with Stugotz", " Pablo Torre Finds Out" is the jewel of Meadowlark Media.
Freaking. Phenomenal! I can't wait to see how this all progresses.
Pablo you did it again! Your podcast is far above the others thank you.
The quality and volume of what ya'll are doing is remarkable!
Don't forget 'the peoples promise" he is making money off his employees now too, mandatory $30k loan as part of compensation when you sign up, with interest due back in full if laid off, fired or quit in the first 3 years.... Within 2 years. They're well known for unnecessary 'performance improvement plans' at about 2 yrs 11 months and then they place liens on people's homes to make them repay and then owning a portion of their home
This was incredibly well done.
This guy has the best hand motions
Pablo, really enjoyed this piece! This is the type of reporting we want to see
+1 must-watch
The part folks don’t understand is not all Wholesale Lending is the same. Yes lenders can be cheaper but at what cost? Example with UWM I get loans done in 12 days, at other lenders they take 30 to 45 days. If other lenders want to increase their share of the market they need to build a model that can compete with a UWM model and be as efficient.
Thanks for this great show; it's hard to find sports content nowadays that teaches me so much that I didn't know
Wow! Fantastic episode
Incredible ep, well done!!
David Samson is demanding Pablo give back the Ichiro ball. Nobody talks bad about David's heroes like that!
Another amazing episode
When you let the cat in the chicken house 🏠 this seem like a scandal of great proportions.
Phoenix Suns owner Mat Ishbia is a housing tycoon, and he was supposed to insulate the NBA's house from disgrace. But eye-opening new reporting from investigative startup Hunterbrook Media alleges that Ishbia's company became the country's largest mortgage lender with "a lie." Hunterbrook's Sam Koppelman examines how the owner's competitive management style parallels his approach to basketball and why Ishbia could even be forced to sell the Suns, while Pablo explores how Ishbia's childhood hero - Isiah Thomas - fits into how both the Suns and United Wholesale Mortgage have been operating, behind closed doors.
Impeccable as always
as someone currently house hunting, this is a brutal listen ...
As someone who just signed with rocket mortgage because of a broker thinking I was getting the best deal, I’m upset with myself for not digging deeper on my own to try and find the best deal. Ignorance was bliss
@@rrsrrs04 That sucks to hear man, the good thing is you can always refinance once the market is more favorable and it is a lot easier to shop that around when you don't have a purchase contract staring you in the face. Just remember when doing a refinance you have a new set of closing costs. Do not do the loan if the closing costs are more than you are saving, otherwise it is basically a scam.
Nick Wright is Drake
Pablo is Kendrick Lamar
Nick may end up being very jealous over time
Wait does Pablo and Nick Wright not cool?
Next level!
This was great. Thank you for the amazing reporting on this.
Great reporting Pablo. Who knew Isiah could be "a bad" guy? Thanks for sticking up for the common guy Isiah! Not only were you part of the Bad Boys of basketball but you're part of the Bad Boys of Mortgage! I bet you had LAIMbeer working with you in the background. Sam Koppleman, you rock! Great reporting, right up their with 60 Minutes!
Just ask anyone that's ever worked for UWM and they'll tell you all about how bad of a guy he is. Complete self awareness lacking "get your grind" bro
Including a stat such as "UWM charges $2,500 more than the cheapest option" is misleading unless you also show what their costs compares to the average, and most expensive options in a given time period. In early 2023, they actually offering a full percentage point lower rate than rest of the wholesale market just to keep loans coming in the door. Not to mention refi 100 which is available now.
Also, with inventory so low, many sellers are looking for who can close escrow the fastest (which is why all-cash offers are hard to beat). UWM has a system that, if used correctly, will close faster than most other companies. Didn't know making loans close faster while not being the cheapest option at all times was a crime . My goodness. If there was a stat for how many Americans who lost out on a home (and future equity) because their offer was not accepted due to terms/contingency timelines, you would see how the "cheapest option" isn't necessary the best option. I agree some brokers push UWM on their loan officers, however every loan officer who decides to send the majority of their loans to UWM is not automatically in violation of their fiduciary duties.
I am not defending all of their business practices but thought some things needed to be brought up
Lol refi 100 is still NOT better on pricing than Cmg, newrez, or pennymac on pricing. Maybe a bit better on tech but the client doesn't pay nor care about ease of uploading a file to their system.
UWM who claims to be 100% Wholesale only making comments like this to the head of their "off paper" retail presence - U-MORTGAGE who competes with Mat's so-called broker partners! Yet brokers still send a majority of business to UWM - either genius strategy or UWM's loyal brokers simply have horse-blinders on! Someone please get Sam Koppelman a seat with the financial news outlet with this report!!!
Fantastic Journalism from Sam and his team. Holy moly this guy is a slime ball
UWM isn’t doing anything bad for the borrower.
UWM and all the good lenders like Rocket TPO / The Loan Store / NewRez - Carrington - etc - have only done good for borrowers.
The competition is internal - the borrowers are getting the benefit by using any quality LO - whether broker or not that is fairly priced.
Hint - a pure broker is always fairly priced - our cap by law keeps us below market.
So with that part of your assessment - you’re wrong.
It’s the advertising and shopping I think that you got right - the loyalist nature of it - which I have no quarrel with other than it’s advertised as opposite.
This is a great exposè on what is really a microcosm of what often goes wrong with American capitalism: it more often than not mortgages the future in blind pursuit of short term gains. Kudos.
Dan Gilbert approves this episode 😂
I'm willing to bet every billionaire has engaged in outright shady or at the very least questionable business practices.
No one does a billion dollars worth of “work”.Screwing people over or scamming is the only way
Unless you’ve studied to be an MLO.. you really don’t understand the regulations and intricacies of the mortgage industry, Sam. 27:10. FACT: #1 rule: always have the homebuyers best interest. Matt Ishbia and Whitney Bullbrook should be in jail for referral fraud
As a mortgage broker ( someone who knows wtf they’re talking about ) who you ultimately originate your loan with for your client depends on a few factors. It’s not just price, it’s speed of service of the transaction ( home purchases sometimes have contingencies that require closing in a set number of days ) it’s also the level of control they allow you ( the broker and your processing team ) and also the incentives they offer the borrower.
How many UWM mortgages do you write a year? What is the %?
I was a broker and used UWM about 50% of the time. They are among the fastest and most streamlined lenders out there. Often they were among the cheapest. When they were a little higher I would just reduce my compensation so I didn't have to use a lender that would be slow and unresponsive. I love this podcast, but this episode is misleading at best. Rocket mortgage is the worst and way more expensive.
@@StPeteComedy The reason why it is purposefully misleading, is that this news publication is owned by a hedgefund (of the same name) that trades before it published. Just look up Hunterbrook and the original article they posted and go to the bottom where they disclose all of this. They are trying their hardest to be Hindenberg but without any of the sustain or actual evidence to back up their claim. It is a hit piece to put it simply.
Rocket Mortgage is the worst? Sounds like you're a UWM slapdick, signed The Ultimatum, and are yourself, misleading.
Faster and streamlined? Their underwriting is straight garbage. The janitors know the guidelines and selling guide better than their underwriting team..... Sure 1-2 day turn times are nice but I can get that at 15 other shops all with better pricing that I don't have to spend 'partner points' or 'control your price' incentives to get an underwritten pre approval of a competitive rate.
Great work but NEVER skip the dilly dally 😑
Where are the regulators with this crap? So dishonest and he’s proud of it
I’m so happy I quit UWM last week fuck that place
Top 5 Nepo Baby Business, coming up next Dan!
UWMC is in my Dividend Portfolio. Ugh, thanks Pablo.
All those financial shenanigans don't sound like something a billionaire would do.
So funny to see people cheering at the stock exchange like it’s their own company going public. That video aged so well.
. . . only if you guys knew.
U gotta do an expose on Tom gores the owner of the pistons… that would be informative
Also, please post these stats that show that UWM loans were more expensive for the consumer in rate and/or closing costs. They have a flat fee just like the rest of the wholesale lender options and it's not the highest.
Flat fee for underwriting is only a small part of what you're getting charged. What the 'par' rate you're shown or what the discount points are, are hiding the true cost from you and building the profit margin in a way you can't see it. Do you think they're really lending at the rate they pay?
UWM stock is down 20% in five days. Is this story a part of the reason it is down?
Rocket is down 8% in the same span so at best it's only part of the reason.
@@brianlee9168 An article on Ishbia and Gilbert came out today at ESPN too. I would be concerned if I were Adam Silver, but he's not that smart anyhow since he decided that it was a good idea to have Ishbia run the team anyway. One thing that this quick "investigation" overlooks is the importance of refinancings on the business. With interest rates high again Ishbia's business is at risk to face significant declines over time. On top of this, part of the growth came from a steady march down in rates for a long time. It is unlikely rates reach that level again unless Trump is reelected or there is a crisis. And if that is true, another Biden term combined with this press calling all of this out seems like a far pitch for politicians looking to score a quick win. Remember all that has to happen is that Ishbia's company loses share because they now have to have more "arm's length" transactions. Lower volumes because of higher rates. Lower volumes because of losses in market share. Greater regulatory scrutiny. All are bad things here for this guy. Even ignoring a shareholders' lawsuit.
It is moreso because the market wants rate cuts but the fed keeps playing coy and now people are not anticipating as much of a rate cut now than at the start of the year. It is a market level correction, not company level, which is why Rocket is also down. I am sure the news article might have done something, also all the puts the hedgefund that owns this 'journalist' probably helped to depress the stock since the velocity if the puts naturally will push the stock down and others may jump in if they see large volumes of puts...lots of reasons
Most people that are part of the industry see how flimsy the claims are on face value, with that said though the target is those outside of the industry so it will be interesting to see if they can get market sentiment on their side. I do not think they will as Ishbia and his family own too much of the stock to create the velocity needed to move the stock and most that are educated investors in the space will see through the 'story' being told. To be clear, even if UWM was the most expensive wholesale lender, they are still cheaper by a whole point compared to retail lenders such as Rocket, Movement Mortgage, etc which is still 70% of the market. This is where I believe the judge will throw out the case, taking the stance that UWM is overcharging falls on face value when it is cheaper than the majority of loans currently being originated in today's market.
The league and other NBA owners are okay with Mat Ishbia’s business practices?
Also, this guy is using Pablo to advertise. Smart on his part.
It’s 2024 and people can’t smell out AI
This is all super compelling BUT, but, banks make money by giving out loans. They don’t have to give you a mortgage because they’re getting interest on UWM’s interest. They’ll never stop lending to UWM and Rocket if they can reap some of the rewards and do none of the work
This. Most banks do not want to originate, it is too heavily regulated and opens them up to possibly getting questions about other parts of their business. They love how this is set up and a big bank has a pretty vested interested in UWM for this reason.
Visibility
For all the research put into this reporting I would have imagined that there would have been more devious behavior then “ it smells fishy”
This is journalism
As I say constantly this show is starting to become a problem must see viewing at this point. And does Pablo have security?
JOURNALISM!!!!!!!!!!
Sacrifice for the Algorythmgods
Thx for the info, I live in phx and I'm done supporting the suns til they can get a not horrible billionaire (if they exsit) to own the suns and the mercury. This is all so gross, I almost feel bad for supporting them for so long tbh. But stuff I needed to know, so thanks Pablo and sam.
Currently imaging JP Morgan repoing the Phoenix Suns lol
Pillar 7 Pablo
Should we short UWM on the stock market?
Koppelman's company did before releasing this story.
For those calling this investigative journalism, it is not. It's not actually journalism, since doing real journalism - developing sources, finding undisclosed information - would violate SEC regulations, which Pablo's freind's company cannot do because it is a hedge fund, not a news organization.
He sounds like the real Bobby Axelrod
I went to high school with Ishbia’s brother
We all went and found her right? right??? 25:00
Slime-balls..
I loved everything except for the part where Sam has to execute his liberal ideals. This shit is so annoying we know you and Pablo are both liberal.. but President Trump will never be impeached 💀🤣… donated to more black colleges than any other president in history including Obama 💯. TRUMP 2024
26:17 look at me louie!!!!
pablo you are gonna be the new 60 minutes. maybe you already are.
Amin is the source
Gerson Rosas expose OTW?
Wow ...
Oh s;;!'t. Very informative. Now I know why I dislike them. And liking the trophy
Great Zeke digression!
N.C people... Whitney B.
Invisible Hand 21:39 😂
Phoenix Suns...Saudi Sovereign fund....collision course!
three bangers in a row...looks like we are overdue for kimes or nolan duds..😢
This is some really phenomenal digging and data collection... but chill on the pearl clutching within your storytelling. You reported some seriously shady shit, but I'm afraid that's all it is. If there was something that actually broke laws, not just gross or bad-faith business practices, you would've found a legal source that said "This is illegal". I believe that because PTFO is an incredible program with legitimately great journalists. I despise these institutions, but you're acting like that's not what this game is. This game is garbage, by the way, but we're all sitting here playing it. Am I supposed to be shocked that those in power, in every single industry, do everything they can to manipulate regulations to ensure their power remains. "What does a man with power want? More power." Amazon is shady as hell, but that truck keeps running down the street all the same.
I'm not convinced you'll be wrong on a lot of points when the dust settles, but you're both framing every detail through the lens of total malfeasance. It feels like they did something legitimately wrong here, no doubt. I just have no hope that it's something that is punishable by the laws that we live under (often written by those in power).
What pearl clutching. The dude strait up said that the lawyers they talked to didn't say it was actually illegal, but it's probably trying to skirt regulations. It's not their job to determine if it's illegal or not, but reporting on shady shit is great. Their stock is down 20% over the last 2 days btw, so investors also think something shady and possibly illegal might be going on.
@@thehandle711 Do you care that Koppelman's company shorted the stock prior to releasing this article and bought stock in Rocket? They release a story where they acknowledge they don't know if anything's illegal, don't look into any competition's practices, and formulates a $ figure of how much this company "stole" from people in an unscientific manner, but the presentation of this information shouldn't be questioned? As I said, I agree that the information presented here is gross and troubling, but the way this topic is discussed, specifically on this podcast, felt insincere. The tone of their conversation isn't journalistic, at all, which is reinforced by the fact that Pablo doesn't even have the author of the article on to talk about it. He had his friend and Hunterbrook co-founder on instead. The same co-founder whose company stands to make a lot of money if this story has a negative impact on UWM's stock, which it already has, so why should I not question the sincerity of his commentary? Because let's be clear, Pablo blew right passed Hunterbrook's stated mission as a for-profit company and accepted it with the scrutiny of a public relations representative.
@illeeay Rocket is a trash company. So bad that they had to change their name from Quicken because of their reputation. This has really changed my view of Pablo as a journalist. He is being ignorant and/or manipulated by his "friend".
@@StPeteComedy It is probably money, this 'Journalist' on the show has ties to Dan Gilbert's family and I wouldn't be surprised if Dan/his family/estate fund Hunterbrook in some manner, and the journalist probably throws money at anyone who will listen to their story to buy credibility and visibility. Funny how transparent it is though, they probably thought the whole internet was just going to take them at face value.
Horrible
You guys are wrong and don’t understand the full picture. Making a story out of something you don’t know a thing about. UWM charges 100 basis points less than rocket TPO and somewhere around 375 basis points less than rocket mortgage. Mat hates rocket because Dan Gilbert prays on consumers with his flagship company Rocket mortgage retail. Charging 10s of 1000s more per transaction to people who trust to work with Rocket and call them for a loan. There is also more to helping someone making a decision on a loan, especially in a competitive housing market. People need things done fast or easier. A lot of lenders have overlays that will prevent a borrow from qualify. I can rant on about this but there is no point. I don’t see the validity in this video besides the fact that it’s entertainment. Sounds like gossip from chicks in high school. Trying to connect dots that shouldn’t be. Talk about himself overpaying himself and family, that’s fair, but your understanding of the industry and why independent mortgage brokers would be inclined to bring 99% of their business to UWM is false. Also, mat as a wholesale lender is more than inclined to try and sell independent more brokers to work with his company. That is what every company does.. is he supposed to just go ‘hey! Do your loan with my company only if it is the absolute cheapest deal’? Or is he going to encourage his customers to use him as much as possible? This is America. The brokers are more regulated than any bank or direct lender like rocket. The protections are already built in.
Fascinating. So Pablo Torre makes his debut appearance on PTI today too? Interesting. Must be some big money driving this new financial speaculation-slash-"journalism" play. Gives new meaning to insider trading.
yup, it won't work though, it is a sloppy attempt at mimicking Hindenburg research lol
Interesting stuff. A couple follow up questions - does Hunterbrook have a financial position on UWM that might have impacted some of this reporting? And second, why the snide comment about them being “white” when a quick Wikipedia search will reveal he is ethnically Jewish? How was his father able to start this mortgage business - I’m sure he had financial connections through the Jewish community that is so prevalent throughout the American banking and financial system.
Hunterbrook is a hedge fund, not a news organization, It has to follow SEC rules and is thus legally precluded from practicing journalism. The real question here is what is Meadowlark's interest here and who exactly funded this venture.
Licensed real estate agent here:
This episode is trash. The way things are framed is crazy. There is no gun to buyers heads. It is ultimately the buyer's fault they pick the McDonald's of mortgages instead of doing the smallest amount of research. Where are the other thousands of brokers when he rang the bell? An independent broker can come to the same conclusion as another and if they are both thinking about their pocket instead of mutual benefit doesn't mean all of them do it. Also, where is the Realtor in all this? A good Realtor will make sure they don't use rocket OR uwm. Make this a consumer awareness episode rather than one awarding mortgage brokers where you award them more power than they actually have so every person that decides not to research the biggest purchase decision of their lives can blame the person that could only do what the buyer agreed to with SO many signatures.
A good realtor makes sure consumers don't use Rocket or UWM... you are a bad realtor if that's your opinion... I get offers accepted for my mortgage clients many times because the lender is UWM... real estate agents should run for their lives if Rocket Loans is on the preapproval letter, but they LOVE it when it's UWM. They know it will close, will close fast, and they get paid fast!! You are so wrong because you don't know what you are talking about!!
@@DavidDensen I don't use rocket or UWM. Local brokers have knowledge of state level programs and UWM doesn't care. Pablo doesn't understand that sometimes you HAVE to take a deal that isn't the best to get to the closing table. Many would choose a worse deal rather than no deal.
So, they're instantly wrong on a couple of things, two ways to get a mortgage (false) and brokers that use UWM 99% of the time for any reason other than it is because they're one of the best investors in the wholesale model. This is trash-level reporting/understanding of the entire mortgage side of this story. Don't bother to ask 'why' loans end up at UWM and focus on just silly stuff. Ishbia isn't anti-Rocket because of just money, he's anti-Rocket because they have different philosophies on the wholesale channel and the mortgage broker as a part of the process. Look at Ishbia's comments about not laying off employees and go look at how he cares for the employees of UWM and what he's done for Pontiac... Also, 'the best deal' is not always in price. There's a lot of value that UWM provides to the consumer that they don't even know about and don't know how to quantify it.
Mat Ishbia puffed out his chest about not laying off employees while the headcount went from over 10,000 employees to under 6000 the same year rocket did their layoffs. He didn’t lay people off, he cut everyone’s pay, made the work environment, goals, and process in every department completely untenable. Then proceeded to fight the unemployment on every person they let go when they were downsizing. Guy is a complete scumbag, but keep cheerleading bro, maybe on of these days you will get promoted to head cheerleader like the other VPs on staff.
BTW, please list right now here, what UWM's closing loan costs are on any purchase or refinance transaction.... list it right now, since you are so all knowing and confident in your statements that UWM is charging insane fees and costs to their borrowers.... list it out right now!! I know what they are to the penny. Do you know? I worked at Rocket Loans, and I work now as a mortgage broker...I know the answer exactly!! That is why I left Rocket because I couldn't with any good conscience sell their loans and the ridiculous fees & costs behind them... you guys are clueless!! Go back to your bullshit sources, and get the list of closing costs fees from UWM and let's see it!! You fancy yourselves beat reporters now, let's see it Pablo!!