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- Опубліковано 14 лют 2023
- Comics Corner #4 | Identity Crisis & Cry For Justice
Connor and Harry discuss Identity Crisis (2004), Cry For Justice (2009), and Action Comics #775’s “What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way?” (2001), to debate the case for capital punishment and retributive vigilante justice.
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Question why do people blame Batman for not killing the joker when that responsibility would be on Gotham city to give joker the death penalty? 🤔
Exactly.
Gotham City has proven completely inept or unwilling to take care of itself. Arkham Asylum has a revolving door.
Because the entire setup of Gotham as a concept is that it is entirely corrupt from top to bottom. To even engage with the story, we've accepted that Gotham will NEVER enforce any law and order. Everyone knows this from Batman to the McDonald's workers. Batman then takes it upon himself to enforce a proper moral order despite the failure that is Gotham, but at the same time completely refuses to enforce that same moral order by immediately puting every mastermind he catches in the possession of their own gang members in police officer costumes so that the mastermind criminal can be released 5 mins after.
@@Alex_Fahey Because he recognizes that simply because he has the power, he should not simply mold the city to fit his personal sense of order. Gotham is the system people make of it, and if they can't change it then they deserve its revolving door of lunatics.
@Alex Fahey to be fair, Batman's character is a recognition of his ability to be corrupt. If Batman allows himself to become judge, jury, and executioner by order of himself, then lots of people are at risk of his brand of justice.
Batman wants everyone to receive treatment and justice according to the ideal American system. It's why Batman targets organizations like the Court of Owls and why characters like Jim Gordan are such key parts of the Batman lore.
Batman wants a system of justice to take over him when he dies and he doesn't want to become the system by which things operate. He only wants to deliver evil people to justice as flawed as it js
The real reason in the old comics that they didn't kill villains: if they died then you wouldn't have much of a rogue gallery. Imagine if Batman killed the joker after 5 issues... He never would of became what he is today- just as iconic as Batman
I wouldn't say that, necessarily. One iconic appearance seems to work better than repeat appearances, in some cases. Like it's a bit of a gray area but the Shredder is the most iconic TMNT villain even though he dies really early in the comics (though his being iconic probably has more to do with the cartoon). Or for something of the same general era as Golden Age comics, the Wizard of Oz books has the most recurring and developed villain as the Nome King but the Wicked Witch of the West, despite dying in her only appearance, by virtue of being the first (and the one in the MGM movie) is the one who gets all the attention. And that second example also shows that if a villain is iconic and dead that future works will contrive some means to bring them back, like in comic books it's famous that the only person who ever stays dead is Uncle Ben.
Well, it's really more an issue of comics being too damn long and not having concise and planned stories with a beginning, middle and end so the status quo is God.
Old comic did kill villains, Batman killed the Joker in the first Issue but he was so popular they keep on bringing him back.
@@Zetact_ you listed a bunch of things more popular because they are movies/shows. And Oz were books, different than comics. That's like saying Moby Dlck only appears and one issue.
In Jokers first appearance Batman was supposed to kill him, apparently.
But fans liked him enough to bring him back.
@@J.Jonah.Jameson. Also it was around the 90s where comics became super dark and edgy that the Joker became the mass crazy killer that he is now. Used to be that he was just a jokester or a mob boss and that explain why he didn't get a executed because he didn't kill alot.
_Truth, Justice and the American Way_ is Joe Kelly writing a direct rebuttal to Warren Ellis' "Why don't the heroes go after the real b@st@rds?" run on _The Authority_ . It's about as inside baseball as it gets.
I'm shocked they didn't mention this. You can't separate the two.
@@abatter They didn't mentione it because they didn't actually do there research. They are completely talking out there asses. This has happened repeatedly with them covering comic books. They didn't mention for instance that Allan Moore is a card carrying communist and has been for decades.
There research and understanding of genera of super heroes, and of mythological story telling as seen in comics, and comics as a medium, seems so utterly lacking in fact I am starting to seriously call into question there ability to actually have researched anything they talk about to any useful or trustworthy degree.
@@tommyfishhouse8050 With all respect? Thats garbage. That in no way fits all the other facts of Moore's career. Including but not limited to the efforts to normalize Noncesercy, the brazen and open hate for objectivism and any none subjective standard, and the willful destruction of every possible IP he could get his hand on on multiple occasions.
Moore's a Communist who will say anything he has to say to accomplish his pro communist goals.
isnt allan Moore anarchist more than communist? @@BobSmith-oo7ei
@@jmgonzales7701 Moore never met a big government program he didn't like. And your intended to reguard V from V for Vendetta as the villian for being an anarchist who collapses the government and dooms humanity in the process.
I think the animated movie does this story much better.
It paints superman as a character who is so powerful he can hold to this principle of not killing and simply incapacitating or talking down his enemies, and it makes the elite corrupted by their methods. Their home based is an enslaved extra-dimensional being suffering from the elites callousness.
It makes the story much less about pacifism and much more about the point of superman and why he exists.
That said yes. This cowardly pacifism of “well can’t we just talk nicely to the murderer so he puts down the gun” is both wrong and leads to more people dying or being hurt in the long run.
Nah, the animated movie's still rubbish, it just makes the plot holes a bit less glaringly obvious. The entire thing presents the situation as 'Killing violent psychopaths that've killed thousands of innocents is bad because killing bad' or 'Collateral Damage, Shmallateral Blammage, who cares?, and it's about as blatant a false binary as you can get.
Problem with the Elite was when they began taking out the governments of two nations going to war.
That was definitely going to make the world spiral further out of control.
I get that you guys are on a capital punishment kick, but you're navel gazing on this one issue when several other issues could be solved before it - namely self-defense.
The comic isn't just arguing "killing vs not killing criminals", it's about who has the responsibility to deal that ultimate justice. It argues that it shouldn't be in the hands of centralized, unaccountable sources of power that people should simply trust have their best interest in heart. Superheroes aren't simply exceptional individuals bound by the limitations of normal citizens, they are that unaccountable power personified, and the Elite are meant to show when that power is misused to create a personal order divorced from the will of the people. That's ultimately what is meant by "The American Way", not pacifism but accountability.
This comment 💯💯💯
Preach.
Great response!
Absolutely perfect response.
I love these guys, but their take on comics is often WAAAAAAAAAAY, way off ...
"it's about who has the responsibility to deal that ultimate justice."
That might does not make right & that in fact the more might one has the more options one has & the more restraint one must apply in it's applicaiton.
The movie version did a better job at expanding this in a better way and even taking the lefty mindset out of it. It shows Superman coming into conflict with them only when they murdered some world leaders and openly threatened others. It also shows Superman having to hold back from finishing off threats.
I also just like it because Superman and The Elite legit start off liking each other at first. You can tell Manchester was once a fan that used to look up to Superman before he got jaded and cynical.
And Superman even acted as a mentor figure to The Elite to an extent. You could tell they were powerful but inexperienced.
Admittedly though the animated movie did a *GREAT* job in showing what an Elites Superman would look like, and why he doesn't do it
One thing that the "superheroes should kill" crowd forget is that superheroes are not (usually) fully authorized law enforcement. The only semi-legal justification for their crime fighting is that they are executing citizen's arrest, much in the vein of the Guardian Angels or a neighborhood watch. If they utilized lethal force with the casualness that you proscribe, they would, in the eyes of the law, be considered murderers, and be hunted down just as ruthlessly as the criminals they fight.
🙏 THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!! This is EXACTLY why (most) heroes shouldn’t kill their enemies.
Joe Kelly was able to properly expand the comic in the animated series. And with it they demonstrate the fact that it’s not “Killing Vs Not Killing” but rather it’s wether or not a single person should hold that much power over others.
The story isn’t the Elite wanting to kill villains because of Self-Defense or to protect the innocent. They do it because they believe they should be the ones to be Judge, Jury and Executioner. They’re strong enough to apprehend the bad guy without killing anyone, but they rather skip the legal shit, including a fair trial, and just execute anyone. That’s a BAD legal precedent, and power you would not be so eager to accept if your political opponent were the ones with their hands on the executioner’s switch.
Oh, that definitely sounds much better and interesting! Thank you for pointing that out!
Exactly. Was more Blatant when they went out of there way to kill those 2 governments going to war.
I beg to differ on the thesis here. I'm not comfortable with a society that permits extra-judicial killings. If anything, I'm more concerned with a society that watches Batman, Superman, Green Arrow, etc, capture these murderers, then the court system doesn't put them to death.
because the judicial system itself is corrupt. Capital punishment is a must.
Marvel had a "Damage Control" series. A company to help clean up after the collateral damage caused by hero fights.🤣
that's a cool premise. was it good?
@@TheAlison1456 My brother bought them and I only read the first. Also, it was from the early 80's. It made enough of an impact to remember it.
"I enjoyed Ben 10 as a child" wooow...how YOUNG are you???!!? I thought that came out a few years ago for children ...wtf!!!
Two grown men who can't understand a Superman story.
cuz superman's point is wrong
0:34 whaaaaaaaaaaaaaatt?! The guy who wrote Deadpool as he is today created Ben 10?! No way! That's crazy.
I watched the cartoon of superman vs the elite, its really good. They had a point, but they went too far was their only real mistake. I did like the whole idea that superman could easily be insanely brutal, but he chooses and tries really hard not to be
Lex Luthor and other billionare bad guys would be the owners of the The Daily Planet and other Dinosaur Media even since the OG Superman of the 30's & 40's.
Connor, superheroes live in a fantasy world where there's always a better way than killing. That's kind of the point of what they are. This got lost in the last couple of decades when a more nihilistic view has taken over and writers feel the need to have the superhero world be "the world outside your window". But it's supposed to be a fantasy, and escape from that world. Superman wouldn't have killed. He'd have found another way. Because he's Superman.
If I recall, the point of this story was lampooning Warren Ellis' "The Authority".
Thank you. People want Superman to kill because they have to pull him and his ideals down to their level. Some superheroes do kill. Not Superman. As Batman says, "There's always a way out."
Actually "The Elites" would be a perfect name for a group of super villains who work together to stop what we are told are great problems, but their doing so causes great collateral damage. their super power is money, and they meet every year in Davos.
I hope you guys check out Star Wars Legends comics sometime. Especially Knights of the Old Republic and Legacy. Some of the best Star Wars stories, even if the drawing in Knights of the Old Republic takes a nose dive halfway through before righting itself.
The Dark Horse book, Dark Empire, would be a great addition to that.
@ThongorrtheBarbarian Dark Empire, aka episode 9 done better, even if the ending was an obvious hard reset.
The problem with capital punishment is the slippery slope is much of a slope and more like a cliff. Once you give someone the power to execute people, the game becomes "How do we get people to fit into the criteria for it."
Just take a look at Canada and its MAiD program. The criteria started off as "People who are terminal ill and suffering immensely" now it's anyone who is not mentally and/or physically fit. The reasoning behind this has also changed from "This is for the good of the individual" to "Keeping you alive costs too much."
For me the whole point of Superman is that despite all of his power, he chooses not to be judge, jury, and executioner; because it's not his place. It's like how doctors and medics used to be presented in media: They'll treat anyone, friend or foe.
Frankly I think who should be judge, jury, and executioner is the community; not an individual, nor a government. Local problem, local solution. Exile used to be an option: We don't want you dead, but you can't live here. Problem is that got turned upside down, in where no one is allowed to be exiled anymore; so things just degrade until everyone else moves away. As a result you just get this creep of people who cannot be punished pushing decent people out of places.
At the end of the day Superman won't abuse his power, but the Elite will; and the logic of "Well if only the Elite did it properly" is pretty much lefty logic isn't it? No one will ever do it properly, and again it's not a slope; it's a cliff. A cliff that has led to many mountains of bodies.
Good Argument.
I would counter with events like the Sewol disaster, and ask "How was someone not hanged for that?" Although there seems to be some vigilante justice in that story.
In Australia we binned capital punishment because we executed a innocent man, and he was sentenced with a jury.
So these things can be nuanced
@@Master_J2375 That was happening in the US for years before they banned the death penalty. There is a whole list of post mortem pardoned convicts.
@@Guciom i thought it was still legal in the us? Or at least at a federal level
@@Master_J2375 Currently there are 11 states in the US where capital punishment is still theoretically a thing.
I hope we get an Image/Dark Horse/Vertigo/DC Black Label-esque alternative graphic novel label from you guys someday. I'd give my left arm to work for that company.
you can give you left arm right now to go work for Rippaverse
but i want to see it in DC rather than the Rippaverse. @@TheAlison1456
I hope we get a Dc black label movie.
Somehow, having a super-powered alien deciding who lives and who dies is not a pleasant thought. I love this issue of Superman, and I do think it is up to us to judge ourselves. It is not for the heroes to kill the villains, it is for the society. If society is unwilling then the deaths are on them (see Joker). Heroes are protecting the peace, not enforcing their will.
Also, Superman killing Zodd in Man of Steel was never the problem, it was moreso that with the way Kryptonian powers worked in the film along with Clark's generally questionable upbringing ("Maybe you should let the kids drown to keep your identity a secret, Clarke.") that made him come across as this weirdo.
Wonder if these guys would agree with superman in the injustice storyline
No because he ultimately decides to be petty. I Think kingdom come is the best i can agree with.
" Superman #775 is Pacifist Propaganda "
Look up in the sky, it's a bird, it's a plane, it's the moral of the comic book going right over your head.
It's a story about how unrestrained power & how might does not make right. That Superman is Superman not because he is powerful, but because he is restrained & moral. That the more power you have, the more restraint you must show, BECAUSE of the high level of power you possess.
All this video did was convince me that you guys don't understand what Superman, nay the entire Superhero genre means and stands for to millions of people (both in the US and the rest of the world) anymore than the frothing leftys in Hollywood who make the movies.
Pacifism doesn't work. Hasn't anyone watched Gundam Wing? How'd that work out for Relena?
exactly, pacifism only gives non-pacifists full permission to be as gleefully and as openly violent as possible to you (the pacifist) and/or others. You can see it with any number of protests, where 1960's style pacifist 'nuisance protestors' place themselves front and center, and then the immediate police response, is to take the aggression up to 12, charge the gathered riot-crowd, and hand out beatings and arrests and forcibly bring whatever demonstration, to a succinct end in the span of about 10 minutes.
Specially endless waltz shown that off best, the moment someone with intent and force came about (Barton) Relena was captured and the Earth was under the hand of the Mariemia Army.
That being said, Relena does learn about using force when she slaps Mariemia to get her to realise what has happened
Am I the only one feeling reminded by The Elite of Antifa?!
Couldn't disagree with you more on this take. Let's be real here, your issue is that what's being rebuked here is the UK style of writing popular in comics at the time. Warren Ellis, Garth Ennis, Mark Millar, Alan Moore, etc. This was a rebuke of the fact that the people pushing the ideal that "super heroes in capes are dumb" were all pushing basically the trenchcoat mafia. All their protagonists are smug sociopaths who murder whoever they want and are exclusively loyal to their friends. Garbage like The Boys, Hitman, Transmetropolitan (yes, yes, people with bad taste love le smirking journalist, I don't care) Preacher and a half a dozen other edgy series all in the same style with the same cynical brits constantly wearing dark coats and sunglasses with a cigarette hanging out of their mouth. You utterly miss the point, sometimes killing is necessary but if you aren't a piece of shit you don't WANT to kill. You pursue every other possible option because you have reason. "Oh, that's not realistic!" Well no shit, neither is heat vision or ice breath. That's the point! They're better than us, they're literal superhumans. As Grant Morrison put it once "In a way they're more real than we are because their lives go on for generations beyond our own." Superman works because he isn't Homelander, he isn't Brightburn, Uberman, Red Son, Sentry, Hyperion or any of the couple dozen evil knock-offs. You can justify him being as powerful as he is because he restrains himself, because he will always go to insane lengths not to have to kill anyone. That's what normal people like about him. That he could have murdered the Elite, but he beat them at their childish, sociopathic game, taught them a lesson, dismantled their smug stupidity and made Manchester Black cry like the little bitch he is, took his powers away from him without killing him and even wished him the best as he sent him off to prison smug in the fact that he is a better person than him. I can't even begin to express my disappointment in this take, but whatever. To each their own.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
There is a line of "when is a criminal irredeemable and when do they only deserve some prison time, community service and/or education or other help" and the big discussion is where said line is.
I'm not saying "kill everyone for the smallest of offenses", in that case it would be "oh, you jaywalked or littered, *BANG* justice have been done".
Nor do I say "nobody deserves to die", because in that case the psycho who killed dozen of people just for fun (Someone like the Joker) could just go free and do it again.
Because those two are the extremes, and very very VERY few things are good to do on the extreme side.
It shouldn't even be up to the heroes to perform executions in the first place, the justice system should manage this on its own. The insanity plea shouldn't still be viable after the joker has escaped repeatedly to commit acts of mass terror. Technology and laws should evolve to account for a society filled with super heroes and villains, and in the event that you have a guy like atomic skull, who in the movie adaptation of this story, goes on a rampage turning countless people to dust for the second time that week, how is someone with the power to stop him once and for all no in their right to do so? There's no grey area there, he's actively killing people, so kill him to put a stop to it. Police do this, yet Black can't? I understand there's nuance: the idea of rule of law, and deputization - But at a certain point, ending a massive threat is just self-defense/defense of others.
This narrative is almost always contrived, and frankly it's tired. But there's a way to tell it without dumbing it down to "killing bad"...
Superman vs. The Elite was a great film, speaking of.
Collateral damage? Has this writer not read any other comic authors work? Damage Inc. Was a 90's comic ALL about cleaning up the collateral damage done by superheroes. Jesus one hero farts and levels a skyscraper.
Movie does the idea better.
Supes commiting random murder reduces him to a lawless authoritarian executioner
The film is superbly done.
Ive seen red son, ive seen under the red hood, and now i need to watch superman vs the elite.
It's a problem that western comic created for themselves, making the heroes so viruous that they actually go against normal human logic.
And also creating villains that they simply can't get rid of. Maybe it's part of the format but even recent movies have had that problem, Emperor Palpatine with Star Wars, the Colonel from Avatar etc.
9:12 It could be like the era where Japan was almost completely cut off from the rest of the world for 200 years kind of isolation they were going for...
What could possibly go wrong with that?
@@MiaogisTeas Mechs and Catgirls
The point is that the elite are the edgy(previous generation of whoke) comic types just killing without taking into consideration why supers should be judge jury and executioner.
They’re not trying to be tyrants but help people.
You two are really missing the point here
But that doesn't excuse the shitty way that the comic handled the situation.
AY UP LOTUS EATERS
I only watched the Cartoon.
This is what happens when Marvel fans critique Superman. Always basic, shallow arguments that ignore the purpose of the character because he's not some gritty street level antihero like the Punisher.
I'm very glad to see many in the comments understand the real purpose of Superman.
@@SoundEngraver he has a purpose? A special purpose?
Except neither of them is a Marvel fan
So it's not just for children? He has a big S on his leotard so you can tell it's him. S for superman. Very adult. It's for children.
@@PaulTheHermit77 Not sure who you are responding to, but I leave you this:
“Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.” ― C.S. Lewis
Nah, lethal force should be the absolute possible last resort, and this needs to be emphasized more strongly in our culture. Sure, sometimes it's unavoidable, but it''s not something to glorify and should be portrayed in media as little as possible (sure people can draw whatever, but that doesn't mean a publisher has to pick it up). And tradcon psycopaths can disagree all they want.
Clickbait Title?
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...you know what issue is? This feels as though they are arguing from the position of the heroes acting as an agent of the state. When these are individuals. If you use overwhelming force and the person comes out alive, it's done. You don't crush the head of the dude once they are no longer the threat.
The heroes use proportionate force which at times utilize just enough to subdue.
Then as a proper society, the authorities do not arrest the citizen for self-defense but try/sentence and deal with the offender.
...Heroes are individuals enacting self defense, not the states arm
Gotta disagree big time with this
Problem is, everyone sees themselves as superman, but the message is clear from the government.. We're all Zod.
Look at the Justice League: WAR run. It was the first Spew52 story, the reboot of the Darkseid story, and the introduction of metahuman heroes as a new phenomenon. None of the JL "trinity" know one another.
At the beginning of the arc, every superhero is a "rugged individualist", and is a failure at being a hero. They're conceited, irresponsible, distant, uncaring, and immature. It's only when _they form a collective_ that they even begin to become effective.
With The Elite, there's another layer. The Elite is a caricature of the Wildstorm team "The Authority". They can do this because they had recently purchased the Wildstorm properties. Manchester Black was a pastiche of Jenny Sparks, right down to the snarky attitude, the cigarettes, and the Union Jack on the chest. The Authority was a very "stomp the bad guys until they die" sort of team, but that's because there were horrible alien creatures trying to conquer the Earth, and some of the supervillain powers were alien mutations that got it off control. Some of the Authority were also alien modified humans, but they were trying to prevent the conquest of the world. The Authority were the ones capable of focusing their actions to avoid the collateral damage, and DC hated that. Wildstorm even had a gay duo, Apollo and Midnighter, the Wildstorm cognates for Superman and Batman, except that the DC bromance was an actual ROMANCE for their Wildstorm counterparts. DC did a mini-event for The Authority and Apollo and Midnighter, and from what I saw the response was quite positive. But they didn't take it past that event. They couldn't let their new proto-Marxist Justice League get derailed by actual heroes.
Comics are always a good source for a message and a good virtue, the problem is that the message from Wokes is complete garbage and delusional.
Lex Luthor and other billionare bad guys would be the owners of the The Daily Planet and other Dinosaur Media even since the OG Superman of the 30's & 40's.
@@davidfrancisco3502 But we all know Lex is just a misunderstood man with great ideals!
If you have a story where Superman has to kill, then it isn't a Superman story. Use another character to use for the killing stroke. Or be the masterful writer and make it work where Superman, in the end, doesn't kill. Superman stands on his own and he needs to stay that way.
That sounds like a boring Mary sue story. But superman is a Mary sue, it'll end with an " I'm better than you speech".
That's rather the point, isn't it? This isn't a game of some sort where the GM has to set up a situation for the PCs to screw up; the author is playing both - all - sides here; if Supes is in a situation that _requires_ him to kill, it's because the author chose to have Superman kill. At which point you're not telling a Superman story, and who is that impostor wearing his costume?
Oh, it's just the Eradicator. Again.
There's room in superhero comics to have the story of the hero who chooses to murder for a good cause... but it's not a Superman story.
I completely agree. I've honestly had a change of heart about various different portrayals of Superman which started quite recently. I think that the neck snap was completely justified. Like, you think Zod is just going to stop killing people because Superman asked nicely?
Those people had so much time and available space to move away from Zod's lasers! That whole sequence of events was insufferable!
Its slight of hand, just as you say. It toys with your emotions for the sake of a story. The thing is Superman is competent enough that bad guys don't get a change to take lives before he stops them again. And that's ignoring how often they cause their own ironic demise anyways. Superheroes aren't real but if they were as good as Superman they wouldn't need to kill, and probably shouldn't. Superman would be horrifying if he did.
1. Basically no argument about the necessity of killing can be applied to Superman in any reasonable situation, due to his absurd power. He's faster than the speed of light, strong enough to move a planet, and can hear everything happening on Earth at once. He simply isn't faced with the same difficulties that a normal person has to deal with in these situations, which makes him a terrible character for exploring that side of the moral debate. He has no need to kill a crazed gunman when he can literally pluck bullets out of midair.
2. Superman's moral code is essentially the American justice system (that whole "American Way" thing he keeps going on about): The job of law enforcement is to protect citizens and stop criminals, not to dispense justice. They're supposed to kill, but only when there is no good alternative. When the police kill someone without due cause, we call that police brutality. Superman sees himself as a glorified cop, not judge, jury, or executioner. There is a clear and distinct difference between defensive and offensive violence, and we restrict law enforcement from crossing that line for a very good reason.
3. The Elite's position is not 'sometimes you have to kill to protect people,' it's 'everyone who does something evil deserves to die...' and of course they're the ones who decide who does and doesn't deserve to live. You can't say they're right for killing everyone they dislike just because it's *sometimes* justified-that's like saying CRT is justified because *some* racial discrimination happens sometimes, so we might as well upend the entire system to root out as much as possible.
4. Yes, Superman killing Zod was justified. It's everything surrounding that moment that makes it stupid.
DC keeps analogizing their superheroes to gods but I think "demi-god" feels more accurate. Gods have always done things that would be called evil if a mortal even attempts it. Thus the expression "playing God".
Batman. Antifa what ? Gimme 40k any day
Haha even Captain America was eventually found out as an MK Ultra victim of Red Skull.
Harry is the best one by far!
Early Action Comics and Superman were very left wing
Thanks
The "no kill rule" only ever made some kind of sense for Batman. It's just his personal rule and he knows he will go full Punisher if he crosses the line. Otherwise, trying to justify the rule for the entirety of the cast just results in weak stories where the writer has to stretch real hard to justify their approach.
Also a good chance to point out that the majority of manga does not have this issue. This reminds me of a relatively recent series Demon Slayer, where the main character has the resolve of "yeah I understand and feel really sorry for you, but you ate people so I'm going to have to kill your ass".
Early Batman killed anyway. “No Kill Rule” was implemented by editors who wanted to keep their profit-producing intellectual properties alive.
@@billbadson7598 the way i understand it, 'no-kill-batman' and other no-kill-superheroes, was really an invention of the Hay's codes and the comics code authority.
Loved the ending to the video. Superman was absolutely 100% justified in killing Zod WHO WAS ACTIVELY THREATENING innocent lives, and admitting he'd never stop. But, no. Let's pretend Reeve is still the benchmark who murders a now powerless Zod in cold blood when he could have taken him to any prison in the developed world. And don't forget that Lois had to join in on the murderous fun. And don't forget that Superman had to get revenge on that mean trucker guy, when he could have killed him. And don't forget that he erased Lois's memories without her consent. Yeah, the benchmark alright.
The problem with the Liberal mindset about killing vs. no killing that I'm utterly sick of in comics (and when it makes its way into the movies) is that left thinking people have such a misunderstanding of what it means to be compassionate that they view the taking of any life in all situations as abhorrent. This is error. I'm not saying we should actively look to kill bad guys, and superheroes shouldn't be written as such, but it also shouldn't be controversial when a superhero finds themselves in the situation where both qualifiers are met to kill them for the sake of innocent lives.
The problem that the DCEU faced compared to Marvel in film is that DC really had the pop culture mainstream icons that had a much larger foothold in people's minds compared to the main characters in the MCU. But, people's reactions to accurate and good characterizations in the DCEU only proved that people knew ABOUT Batman and Superman. They didn't actually KNOW them. It's because of stupid reactions based on lack of knowledge that channels like WatchMojo and such have to do videos like "10 Times Superman Killed in the Comics".
The saturation of kiddies superhero movies over the years was a deliberate psy-ops to infantilize the public and pave the way for woke.
In the animated movie Superman straight up sounded like he was pearl-clutching in response to Manchester Black's honest and airtight explanations as to why they're using lethal force. Superman just kept repeating himself about showing the Elite that there was another way of doing things, you know, his exact same method that consistently failed and the Elite were a response to.
Manchester Black did nothing wrong.
The problem with comics is that they attempt to portray the preposterous in a mundane world. Malevolent supers would create carnage on an unbelievable scale. Imagine a psychopathic speedster just out for a romp. All of Europe would be dead before any heroic super could act. It is simply idiotic to try and bring any sense of realism to either the Marvel or the DC universes. There is only one comic I know of that ever comes close to depicting a world of super powered beings living amongst normal beings. And that comic would be One Punch Man. In One Punch Man, entire cities are utterly destroyed with massive loss of life. And the top hero, One Punch Man has no foibles against putting down murderous villains and especially monsters, knowing that, if he did not, the villain or monster would continue his or her reign of terror.
That's what I call thought-provoking sengment!
Superman pretends to do kill to make a point. If he did it, he wouldn't BE Superman. He'd be whatever it was Henry Cavill was playing in those Zack Snyder movies. A monster who can kill anyone, for any reason, at any time, and no one can stop him. Did you just cut that tag off your mattress? Jaywalk? Did you have wrongthink? The sentence is death.
That isn't Superman. Superman isn't here to rule us. To scare us into being good. His purpose - both in universe, and for us the reader - is to inspire us to be like him.
"The neck snap was justified..."
Finally someone gets it!
The movie did it better. Superman decides to use different methods to depower villains to the point that regular law enforcement can deal with them. Then the movie ends, and we don't get to see the rouges gallery actually get depowered.
So, I'm old, and liked comics when I was a kid, but gravitated to Punisher, the Shadow and other pulp/westerns characters and stories over more main stream "superheroes" since my Dad was career Army, and a nam vet, so the "good guys don't kill the bad guys" never set right with me. *WHO* you kill and *WHY* is what defines being the good guy and not the bad guy, not the "no matter how many times the bad guy tortures and murders my family, I'll just make another one, because not killing the bad guy is what makes me the good guy" crap from batman and superman.
Am very disappointed. Conner and Harry out here being edgelords.
This is your worst take. Smh.
Worse than their take on anime and manga?
@@tommyfishhouse8050 yes
@@tommyfishhouse8050 what was that take?
@@theliato3809 I recommend Vee/Lack Of Entertainments video on the topic for more info.
Manchester black teams up with superman again in “superman and the authority”
As one says, Based!
But this is a great analogy to the real world.... do you allow poor barefooted villagers to be oppressed, or do you help and in couple years you are napalming the village in order to liberate it?
Comic books are for nerds. Beat it, nerds.
I've seen this comic. Fecking sucks.
Basically just snowflake superman reeing at neolibs, the comic book
Would Be Awesome if. You guys Could interview. Gary from Nerdrotic he's. An O.G. Comicbook Nerd from America. He Owned a Comic Shop.
It would definitely help with trying to get the themes or this comics across of Gary were in these debates
grow up