I believe that running Audyssey (or some equivalent) will compensate for having the grills on. If you were to take them off then re-running Audyssey would be recommended.
I'm curious if any of the commenters have done blind listening tests with the grilles on and off. It makes perfect sense that there's a difference that can be measured technically, but I'm wondering if people can hear the difference without any visual cues.
Not sure what I had learned here -- and why it took seven and a half long, agonizing minutes to get to the end. BTW, ever since sound movies came out in 1926, speakers have been placed behind grilles. We call them "cinema projection screens." They have little perforated holes in them, too. Gee-whiz, Louise.
If you're not happy with the content here, why do you even listen to or visit this You-tuber...? Just go back to 1926! People like you look to criticize others (I wonder what YOU would look like on a UA-cam video!) and are not home theatre enthusiasts, otherwise you would appreciate this kind of information.
This is 100 percent true and something I discovered by accident a few weeks ago. With grilles off, there's a lot more detail in the sound from my Klipsch RP line. The only drawback being that the surrounds look better with the grilles on.
Thank you Andrew. Your explanations sound reasonable. I found the high frequencies from the tweeters become richer and clearer after removing the grilles. If the situation allowed, I think removing the grilles is justified. Thanks for your help.
Glad you took them time to listen both ways, and found which sounds better to you. Most of us have to deal with real world situations, and that can make grilles on an absolute necessity.
It is because of the reasons you mention here that I have been listening to my speakers with the grilles removed for many years. And, the reasons I audition speakers with and without them installed. I've had friends and audio sales people look at me as though I was insane. These days I'll leave the grilles on for CD listening, to mitigate some of the more unpleasant high frequencies. I remove them when listening to vinyl, to preserve the better balance created by the media, the cartridge and the phono stage.
I keep the grills on for movies as the aluminum-cone woofers of the VP180 are so damn gorgeous it distracts me from the movie ☺️ I do take them off if I'm listening to music...
At Axiom, we measure both ways, and choose the happy medium. That way the customer has the option, as every person has a different situation at home, like cats, dogs, or children, where the grilles are a line of defense.
Thanks Andrew, I always enjoy your presentations. Informative and delivered very nicely. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I have tried on and off, not really knowing? After listening to your explanation, may revisit my experiment. Thanks again. Very much appreciated. Robert TN
Thanks for taking the time to comment on your enjoyment of the videos, it’s appreciated. If you do try the grilles on / off again, do share how it went.
My Wharfdale Diamond 225 2 way speakers have separate push on circular grills. Removing the tweeter grill which has a plastic ring supporting the fabric has definitely improved the frequency response and dispersion width of the tweeter.
Hi. I also must agree with that... Over the time my Energy 22 tweeters give up, and replaced them with Audax. Since i was used to bit darker sound, the change at first sounded to bright. Putting the grille on, helped a bit and it was easier for me to get used. And after a while, i even removed the grille off... Thanks for really usefull info, Andrew!
With cats in the house I choose to keep them on. Some speakers DO sound better with the grilles off like my vintage Paradigm 5's. With the rest of my speakers I find the differences negligible. My issue with leaving the grilles on is the drivers end up caked up full of dust if they're not removed occasionally. Thanks for addressing this rarely discussed topic Andrew
The purist in me loves them off, and the M80s just look so cool with them off that that's the way I prefer to listen. I worry a little about dust build up over time and so I usually leave them on between listening times and for general TV watching. Thanks to the grills being magnetic, it's so easy to remove and install them, it's not a big issue like it once was years ago. I've never really noticed any difference in the sound, but I really don't have many off axis listening spots. And I always sit in the sweet spot when listening anyway. ; )
When you were using a window screen as an example it brought to mind the same thing can happen when taking Xrays between the Xray beam and the grid plate. We called it Grid Cutoff (was a radtech for 30 years) That said I prefer sound with the grilles off, but I had to wait until the Grandkids were old enough not to "poke" at the speakers! I like the looks better too.
It’s very interesting how sight and sound are wavelengths and have similar properties, thanks for sharing your Rad Tech info! Grilles can be all about the protection, that’s a reality of our lives. It’s nice when you have the luxury of choosing what you like the sound, and look, of best.
Thanks for such a well thought out explanation of this grille question. I’ve always enjoyed my grilles off for the aesthetics & more open sound to my ears.
Will dust affect speaker performance? My house is so dusty that's why I keep my grilles on. My speakers were balanced with Audyssey years ago and I really don't want to recalibrate with grilles off because of the dust issue and they sound great to me already, although if I try with them off I might have a decision to make. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Axioms run a little bright by speaker norms anyway? We only have a area rug on Hardwood with a big picture window, (if anyone needs the big picture I have it lol) in our living room. I'll close the curtains for acoustics, but not all the time. Plus we have an open ranch concept, not an enclosed room. We have a bright room to begin with I believe.
A build-up of a layer of dust is not a good thing, and if you’re happy with your setup now I would not bother experimenting. In my opinion, today’s Axiom loudspeakers are neutral. They are, however, more refined today than they were back in the day of the original Millenia or “Ti” series.
I have a pair of speakers that didn't come with grilles, and the manufacturer doesn't have any grilles or a way to attach them. I really could use grilles because of a dog that will shed just by looking at her! What is the best way to clean the actual exposed parts of a speaker?
Hi Andrew, thanks for the video. What are the advantages to having no high pass filter on a mid-range driver (for example the M60). I saw in a comment on one the videos by Ian saying that there are some advantages to it but he didn't say what they were. Thanks and keep it up.
There is a mechanical high-pass created by the small, enclosed volume that the mids are inside of, there is no electrical high-pass network in the crossover. From our standpoint, the advantages are more freedom with the crossover point, which helps with the family of curves, and also it allows us to keep everything connected in electrical phase with one another. I know it’s somewhat controversial, but it works to allow us to achieve our design goals.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters I remember the small box on the midrange driver in one of your speaker assembly videos (I think it was the M80), looked like a great solution. I know there's sound (no pun intended!) science behind everything that Axiom does. Thanks for answering my question.
True, but in many cases the grill design can either be part of the baffle, or the frame designed in such a way to achieve the desired results. It al comes down to the design intent and, as always, your personal preference.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters Imagine building a speaker that once built, you have to use the grill to tame some of the highs................ I know, I know there are plenty but just think about it.
@@BoredSilly666 If the speaker sounds completely out of balance with the grilles off, there is a bigger issue with the design unless the grille itself is an integral part of the design. There have been many loudspeakers where the grille actuall changed the baffle shape when installed, lowering diffraction.
A similar topic... Any suggestion on distance from an acoustically transparent screen? My old theater didn't but my new theater will have an acoustically transparent screen. Since I've never tried such a screen, I'm curious how critical it might be to keep the speakers a particular distance behind the screen. The speakers are DIY with DSP and separate amplification for each band so I can EQ the response to compensate for any impact of frequency response but I'm concerned about getting the speakers too close to the screen.
Since there will be some level of reflection, no matter how acoustically transparent the screen, you’ll need to play a bit with the distance. I would think that being closer to the screen would be best, as long as the speakers are not touching. Remember to allow to driver excursion too!
@@AxiomHomeTheaters I was actually thinking give it some distance but that's a problem because the screen will not be all that far off the wall. Thinking more about it, you're probably right, closer may be better which also solves the space limitation behind the screen. The speakers will be very large CBT line arrays so the radiation will be distributed over a very large area which I would think also helps. I know many people even put woofers behind the screen but I'm going to avoid that. Thanks!
@@AxiomHomeTheaters LOL, I'm going to need it, the last couple days I'm working on wiring the arrays, seventy drivers in each main array and fifty drivers in the center array, two terminals per driver, so 380 connections! It's going to be a loooong process!
I believe that running Audyssey (or some equivalent) will compensate for having the grills on. If you were to take them off then re-running Audyssey would be recommended.
Yes, if you are using any sort of correction system you will need to re-run it if you install or remove the loudspeaker grilles.
I use grills because cat claws cause a permanent change in the performance of my speakers. No kidding, that's what killed my last speakers.
Exactly, the speakers are going to sound much worse if they have scratched drivers, let alone shredded!
Cats and kids!!! Expert speaker Drivers'killers 😆
I'm curious if any of the commenters have done blind listening tests with the grilles on and off. It makes perfect sense that there's a difference that can be measured technically, but I'm wondering if people can hear the difference without any visual cues.
Blind listening tests are the best way to judge, for sure. Look forward to seeing if anyone takes you up on this challenge.
Not sure what I had learned here -- and why it took seven and a half long, agonizing minutes to get to the end. BTW, ever since sound movies came out in 1926, speakers have been placed behind grilles. We call them "cinema projection screens." They have little perforated holes in them, too. Gee-whiz, Louise.
Totally pointless contribution!
If you're not happy with the content here, why do you even listen to or visit this You-tuber...? Just go back to 1926!
People like you look to criticize others (I wonder what YOU would look like on a UA-cam video!) and are not home theatre enthusiasts, otherwise you would appreciate this kind of information.
This is 100 percent true and something I discovered by accident a few weeks ago. With grilles off, there's a lot more detail in the sound from my Klipsch RP line. The only drawback being that the surrounds look better with the grilles on.
Glad you found an improvement in your sound, and yes it's always hard to pick between looks and sound.
Thank you Andrew. Your explanations sound reasonable. I found the high frequencies from the tweeters become richer and clearer after removing the grilles. If the situation allowed, I think removing the grilles is justified. Thanks for your help.
Glad you took them time to listen both ways, and found which sounds better to you. Most of us have to deal with real world situations, and that can make grilles on an absolute necessity.
I have the Andrew Jones set . I removed mine grills and got a better Crisp sound from them . Thank you
Exactly, you listened both ways, and found what sounds best to you.
I have the FS-52’s. Incredible speaker. Grilles off for me too…more spacious open sound.
If you have cats, do this at your Peril.
It is because of the reasons you mention here that I have been listening to my speakers with the grilles removed for many years. And, the reasons I audition speakers with and without them installed. I've had friends and audio sales people look at me as though I was insane. These days I'll leave the grilles on for CD listening, to mitigate some of the more unpleasant high frequencies. I remove them when listening to vinyl, to preserve the better balance created by the media, the cartridge and the phono stage.
Perfect example of you listening, and choosing what sounds best to your ears. Thanks for sharing and detailing that perfectly.
i think this aswell
I keep the grills on for movies as the aluminum-cone woofers of the VP180 are so damn gorgeous it distracts me from the movie ☺️ I do take them off if I'm listening to music...
Fantastic compliment to the VP180, what a great reason to have the grilles on!
Is the grille/frame "integral" to the M60's or M3's? Due to my wife's 3 cats, grilles are a necessity...
At Axiom, we measure both ways, and choose the happy medium. That way the customer has the option, as every person has a different situation at home, like cats, dogs, or children, where the grilles are a line of defense.
Thanks Andrew, I always enjoy your presentations. Informative and delivered very nicely. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I have tried on and off, not really knowing? After listening to your explanation, may revisit my experiment. Thanks again. Very much appreciated. Robert TN
Thanks for taking the time to comment on your enjoyment of the videos, it’s appreciated. If you do try the grilles on / off again, do share how it went.
Mine broke and sound worse now😂
So good explained.
My Wharfdale Diamond 225 2 way speakers have separate push on circular grills. Removing the tweeter grill which has a plastic ring supporting the fabric has definitely improved the frequency response and dispersion width of the tweeter.
In sound everything comes down to test, test, test.
Exactly, first on the design end, and then on the listener’s end.
I've found most grilles to mellow out the upper midrange a bit, but muffle the top high frequencies.
Hi. I also must agree with that... Over the time my Energy 22 tweeters give up, and replaced them with Audax. Since i was used to bit darker sound, the change at first sounded to bright. Putting the grille on, helped a bit and it was easier for me to get used. And after a while, i even removed the grille off... Thanks for really usefull info, Andrew!
I simply don't like grills because I think the speakers should be showed off. It is in my opinion artwork.
Nicely said!
With cats in the house I choose to keep them on. Some speakers DO sound better with the grilles off like my vintage Paradigm 5's. With the rest of my speakers I find the differences negligible. My issue with leaving the grilles on is the drivers end up caked up full of dust if they're not removed occasionally. Thanks for addressing this rarely discussed topic Andrew
Very good point when you have cats! And yes, grilles are not really dust covers. It’s a good idea to remove them and clean the drivers occasionally.
The purist in me loves them off, and the M80s just look so cool with them off that that's the way I prefer to listen. I worry a little about dust build up over time and so I usually leave them on between listening times and for general TV watching. Thanks to the grills being magnetic, it's so easy to remove and install them, it's not a big issue like it once was years ago. I've never really noticed any difference in the sound, but I really don't have many off axis listening spots. And I always sit in the sweet spot when listening anyway. ; )
Any dust build-up will likely be minor and your speaker drivers can be gently cleaned if needed. Enjoy the sweet spot!
When you were using a window screen as an example it brought to mind the same thing can happen when taking Xrays between the Xray beam and the grid plate. We called it Grid Cutoff (was a radtech for 30 years) That said I prefer sound with the grilles off, but I had to wait until the Grandkids were old enough not to "poke" at the speakers! I like the looks better too.
It’s very interesting how sight and sound are wavelengths and have similar properties, thanks for sharing your Rad Tech info! Grilles can be all about the protection, that’s a reality of our lives. It’s nice when you have the luxury of choosing what you like the sound, and look, of best.
Grills used only for protection and maintenance. Always music on with grills off 🎼
Best of both worlds!
Thanks for such a well thought out explanation of this grille question. I’ve always enjoyed my grilles off for the aesthetics & more open sound to my ears.
You’re very welcome. And yes, aesthetics can play a big part in the decision of grilles on or off.
Sir without grills dust can spoil speakers. It prevent dust so it protect dirt.
Absolutely. Keep the grilles on when you’re not listening if you remove them to listen critically.
Will dust affect speaker performance? My house is so dusty that's why I keep my grilles on. My speakers were balanced with Audyssey years ago and I really don't want to recalibrate with grilles off because of the dust issue and they sound great to me already, although if I try with them off I might have a decision to make. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Axioms run a little bright by speaker norms anyway? We only have a area rug on Hardwood with a big picture window, (if anyone needs the big picture I have it lol) in our living room. I'll close the curtains for acoustics, but not all the time. Plus we have an open ranch concept, not an enclosed room. We have a bright room to begin with I believe.
A build-up of a layer of dust is not a good thing, and if you’re happy with your setup now I would not bother experimenting. In my opinion, today’s Axiom loudspeakers are neutral. They are, however, more refined today than they were back in the day of the original Millenia or “Ti” series.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters Thanks again for your response. Be safe up there in Canada.
I have a pair of speakers that didn't come with grilles, and the manufacturer doesn't have any grilles or a way to attach them. I really could use grilles because of a dog that will shed just by looking at her! What is the best way to clean the actual exposed parts of a speaker?
Actually, did a video on this exact topic, hope it helps with the dog hair. ua-cam.com/video/d0MORbm7O0w/v-deo.html
@@AxiomHomeTheaters Thank you so much for providing the video link, it was very informative, especially the caution of using a vacuum cleaner.
Hi Andrew, thanks for the video. What are the advantages to having no high pass filter on a mid-range driver (for example the M60). I saw in a comment on one the videos by Ian saying that there are some advantages to it but he didn't say what they were. Thanks and keep it up.
There is a mechanical high-pass created by the small, enclosed volume that the mids are inside of, there is no electrical high-pass network in the crossover. From our standpoint, the advantages are more freedom with the crossover point, which helps with the family of curves, and also it allows us to keep everything connected in electrical phase with one another. I know it’s somewhat controversial, but it works to allow us to achieve our design goals.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters I remember the small box on the midrange driver in one of your speaker assembly videos (I think it was the M80), looked like a great solution. I know there's sound (no pun intended!) science behind everything that Axiom does. Thanks for answering my question.
@@brydon10 You’re very welcome, talking about loudspeaker design is something I enjoy doing!
The frame of the Grill causes Baffle diffraction. Why would people want them on, its distorting the sound.
True, but in many cases the grill design can either be part of the baffle, or the frame designed in such a way to achieve the desired results. It al comes down to the design intent and, as always, your personal preference.
@@AxiomHomeTheaters Imagine building a speaker that once built, you have to use the grill to tame some of the highs................ I know, I know there are plenty but just think about it.
@@BoredSilly666 If the speaker sounds completely out of balance with the grilles off, there is a bigger issue with the design unless the grille itself is an integral part of the design. There have been many loudspeakers where the grille actuall changed the baffle shape when installed, lowering diffraction.
A similar topic... Any suggestion on distance from an acoustically transparent screen? My old theater didn't but my new theater will have an acoustically transparent screen. Since I've never tried such a screen, I'm curious how critical it might be to keep the speakers a particular distance behind the screen. The speakers are DIY with DSP and separate amplification for each band so I can EQ the response to compensate for any impact of frequency response but I'm concerned about getting the speakers too close to the screen.
Since there will be some level of reflection, no matter how acoustically transparent the screen, you’ll need to play a bit with the distance. I would think that being closer to the screen would be best, as long as the speakers are not touching. Remember to allow to driver excursion too!
@@AxiomHomeTheaters I was actually thinking give it some distance but that's a problem because the screen will not be all that far off the wall. Thinking more about it, you're probably right, closer may be better which also solves the space limitation behind the screen. The speakers will be very large CBT line arrays so the radiation will be distributed over a very large area which I would think also helps. I know many people even put woofers behind the screen but I'm going to avoid that. Thanks!
@@mfkhometheater7742 You’re welcome, good luck with the install!
@@AxiomHomeTheaters LOL, I'm going to need it, the last couple days I'm working on wiring the arrays, seventy drivers in each main array and fifty drivers in the center array, two terminals per driver, so 380 connections! It's going to be a loooong process!
@@mfkhometheater7742 👍
Are you nervous why reporting ?