Combos Don't Need to be Long
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
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There are all sorts of different fighting games, and yet you can expect combo and mechanics related to them to be one of the design pillars of basically every title. It’s easier to count exceptions, and you’d still only need one hand for that. It feels like a lot of the modern fighting games lean into the more complex combo structures and extensions, which can definitely add depth, and yet, I think there’s an argument to be made against that, and here it is!
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But, they don't need to be short either. Personally, I like games where weak starters lead to short combos and stronger starters lead to longer combos.
no I hate your opinion. Short combos all the way. just like good old smash melee
@@zachstarattack7320"i hate your opinion" 💀
I like long and complex combos because it caters to the audience of players that don’t play fighting games to compete but to explore, express,and find the most bad ass links and routes possible.
Long combos are fun when labbing, but for gameplay it just makes picking up a new character so much more work. Personally I think SF4 had the best balance - Combos weren't too short like in SSF2T and weren't too long like Marvel, and the hard combo routes had 1-frame links to those that wanted challenging but optimal damage.
As a long time Tekken player, I can't stand it now seeing how the franchise prioritizes long juggle combos.
This has been an ongoing issue since T6, prior to T6, the only characters that were able to perform a wall carry juggle were Lee and Nina, now every character plays like Lee and Nina.
The main issue with long combos is that it's just ain't fun for either party, the one getting comboed is just sitting there watching his character get carried around while the one who's doing the combo knows that combos are effortless.
totally agree. tekken should be about mind games not long combos.
I think you mentioned the key detail about combos, time.
Long combos are often mentioned as a barrier for newer players because they don't want to stare at the screen while they die.
I had a Software Engineering teacher that said "if your program takes longer than 1 second to react to user input it's too slow. If your program takes longer than 3 seconds to react to user input the user will think it's broken".
I know this doesn't translate 1:1 to fighting games, but I do think that we can take something from this: It's frustrating to be unable to act for more than 3 seconds.
Long combos can be spectacular, but they can also be frustrating. I think many don't give the receiving user's experience the importance it deserves.
Although I tend to prefer games without the insane combos, it is also worth noting games like KI use lateral thinking to try to solve for this problem; they implemented ways for you to break someone's combo and the ability for that player to predict and punish. Then there are also a number of different "infinite protection" systems that could be useful if you wanted to limit the length of combos, and some of them like the Burst from Guilty Gear require decision making (by tying it to a resource).
This is all fertile ground for innovation IMO... it is possible to have both freedom in combos and player expression while not resorting to long periods of no interaction between the players. It could also allow for the back and forth you say is missing from the anime types of games. You can mix and match these in any way you'd like and get a completely different game, or even better, come up with something completely new.
So here's a fun question: which fighting games do you guys think has the BEST combo system?
Type moon add to their games mechnic called Resist. You need to press button at same time where you getting hit to reduce damage. It means that same route makes you more predictable to reduce your damage outpout. There is also tech from wall bounce that let you recover to not let opponent combo you even more
Smash bros and other platform fighting games do this really well with Directional Influence to allow the defender to have something to do while being comboed. It gives them agency and allows them to continue making decisions while they're on the backfoot, rather than them wanting to just put down the controller. Plus, I'd argue it's more fun for the aggressor because they have to continue to make real-time decisions and outplay their opponent even while comboing them.
@@Jackrost01 , those are both great examples.
KI has the best combo system, by far, no competition.
@@alexmuir7505 , works well for a platform fighter since the big focus of the sub genre is on the movement options.
"(...) is Project L"
Thank you, I refuse to use the new name.
TBH as I've gotten better with fighting games, I much prefer a shorter combo string and get back to the action. Nothing more boring than watching an Ed million year combo string ending in a super ender. Probably the reason why I didn't bother with Tekken 8, that and the poor net code.
Thanks for the video and I much prefer short combos.
Tekken 7 is my first fighting game, but I always love watching tekken 5 combos: very short and to the point. The fun of fighting games, for me, is in the netural, not watching a 10-second move every time I make a mistake.
Short, to the point but damaging is how I like my combos - one of many things I like and appreciate about T5.
For me short combo with flashy finish is more interesting than long neutral combo, maybe that's why I don't interested to Tekken 🤔
I have a rule, usually if it's 10+ seconds I think it's way too much. Especially in games where time is limited 1 minute 30 or something like that.
Short combos, no projectiles and no meters/bars to manage were the reasons I fell in love with the Tekken series years ago.
Here we are today...
Oh, so you’re a simplistic scrub
There’s long and there’s TOO long . Anything more than 10 seconds is kind of long tbh
that's what she said.
the best game is probably jojos hftf, while there are tods and inft combos, you hardly needed it because everything combos so welll you didn't need to know combos to string something together. and some characters have extremely good auto combos. like most fighting games you cant hit someone mid air falling from damage. but you can here crouch and hit two lows picking them uo high enough to chain your auto punch combo
I feel every game needs a Burst mechanic so you can break out of long combos by spending some resource.
Basically you need a way for the receiving player to play the game.
With Burst you're giving the receiving player the option to spend a resource now or later. He may not be doing something actively, but you're still letting him play by giving him the oportunity to strategize.
Another way to do it is like Killer Instinct, where you can break combos if you guess right the attack of the opponent.
Well, it depends on the game. When Street Fighter came out, you coule make a 3 hit combo (and sometimes 4) depending on the character you were fighting against, then, KI came out, and suddenly there were 48 hit combos with a simple technique: special, auto, special, auto, and then a finisher. But now, I was trying to do the trials in KoF 13, and it was almost impossible. You need to memorize a lot of secuences that, of course, it feels really good if you manage to do them, but it needs a lot (and I mean hours upon hours) of practice to perform them, so, somethings it's good to learn those combos, but as a 40yo man who has to work all day long, I prefer simple things.
St was very precise too,you need to jump at the right spot to cross uo but time this exact hit at the right spot to get enough stun to even attempt the combo. then you need to link it correctly or you failed
As a Lee Chaolan enthusiast the longer and more difficult the combo the better. Even if it does 36 DMG. It must be “Marvelous”….need I say……….Excellent.👍
I personally like more time in neutral, which is why I'm not a fan of team games and anime fighters. I think Tekken 5DR had a perfect balance in terms of combo length.
…Unless your opponent can kill you in two touches.
I prefer simple combos, as I value neutral more than high excecution.
that why i like killer instinct. both player still playing during combos.
but then it's not noob friendly i don't know your routes or your combos so I can't possibly guess and break out
@@cagethelonewolf i play killer instinct against my girl. who games and plays fighting games but mashes. and shes able to pull of a combo breaker and have fun with killer instinct. shed get destroyed by a pro. but i found it begginger friendly.
@@ProjectShinkai hardly, you combo break by pressing their next button mashing disables this and will do serious counter damage
If you think that combo was long, look up manilla skull girls combos
Long combos make a game noninteractive for the other player. It stops being a two player game and becomes a game of solitaire. I get people want something to shoot for, but if I basically lose a match to a single point of contact, that's not a fun game in my opinion.
There needs also be ways to escape from them, if someone keeps doing the same combo over and over, I should have more options to punish their lack of originality. Combo breakers in killer instinct were a great idea, and should be part of games where longer chains are super common. I liked the damage cap from MK 4, where you can't kill a player in a single combo. Rather than knock the attacker down, I think the opponent should get launched away once the damage cap is reached. Rather than make it a standard across the board thing, I'd make vary on characters so you can have weaker characters with higher overall damage ability through combos while some characters hit their cap in 3-4 hits. I think there's room to play with this concept beyond what has been done. You can balance gameplay a number of ways so each character brings something different to the table.
Having long combos are nice and all but it's not fun when a beginner to moderate player have to read and memorize the inputs and time them. I've always avoid them because it's not fun at all and even if I manage to master it there's no guarantee it will work and the better players will sus it out. I've always kept this principle to make your own and unique combos. It doesn't have to be long or high damaging but optimal for you to execute. Yes you can watch high level players on how to do combos but creating your own combos is a start to understand what moves are safe and what moves are not.
TLDR everyone should be a grappler
I would rather go to the systems back on the day. See nowadays I'd say there's 10-20% of people who can do the really long tod style condos. That's too many! They should be mega hard to do and a reward for you Understanding the game to that degree. That is the problem, too many people can do em because the games are too easy.
10 - 20% still isn't much. You would have a point if that number was over 50. Idk how you think TODs are easier to pull off today than they were back then. One you need meter in order to even have a chance at pulling that off. Rarely are you going to run into people that save meter like that.
Most TODs today also require you to have your opponent cornered. Your execution also has to be on point which again not many people can do.
@@trellwhitehurst6670 you're focusing too much on the touch of Death part. I said style combos for a reason maybe it doesn't kill you but it's still too damn long and still too easy. And I don't know what you're talking about about running into people who saved meter like that I run into them all the time. Especially in anime Fighters where building meter is simple as walking forward. I've been in games where I've got a full stick of butter and neither of us have taken more than 25% damage. And meter is built during the combo so I don't really see that as an impediment. 20% is 1 in 5 avg. That's allot. Especially when in older games the percentage was far less because the combo had to be done for so long. Now we have several supers to help secure that damage. Back in the day, the super would take you out of the combo, once the super hit that was generally "the end". Now M'FERS got supers as a combo extension tool, where I get hit by the super but because of a quirk in programming I'm left airborne not grounded.
@MetaSynForYourSoul of course they're going to be easy to do in anime fighters. Just like with the Marvel games, its like that by design. Yes a lot of people can do long combos. What you failed to mention however is that at least with half of those mfers, that's ALL they got and most times they only have 1. The moment you figure out how they like to do to start those long combos, you got them beat because they don't have shit to fall back on. No plan B or C, whatsoever. I know this because I've beaten plenty of them.
@@trellwhitehurst6670 even if all they got is their one shot, it's still 80%+ of your health for 1 mistake. That sux. Defensive mechanics haven't kept pace with offensive ones. If you're gonna have dummy long combos, you need push blocks and burst and maybe even something else. Something to be able to break t the combo. Otherwise you get cooked, and even if you block it all, the last hit of the string leaves them positive so it still ain't your turn. Also I have run into few of those one trick pony players, because most of the long combos are really just 4 smaller ones stuck together in the right conditions. Most of the folks I know will just rely on the pieces instead of waiting to land the whole thing. Much like checkmate ends a game of chess, KO ends a fighting game. It's no fun to simply be a spectator to your life bar melting.
I used Akuma in SFV and I used an over 50% damage combo as one of my b&b's. Every game was only a round and a half because once they're in the corner, they're mine. The rewards for the corner are too high in most games, imo.
I am not a fan of dying off of one Neutral interaction (most of the time, I do like my fair share of kusoge) unless it is very uncommon. I like DBFZ and the Capcom Vs Series franchise even though 100% combos are in abundance but because you have multiple health bars you still get to play the game and for the most part their combos have some nuance and interesting combo theory. BUT I HAVE ONE HUGE ISSUE!! Often time people end up doing the same 2-3 optimal combos which then makes this whole situation kind of boring with the guy doing the combo doing the same old thing while the guy getting hit is essentially watching the same cutscene over and over. For this reason I must praise burst and especially Killer Instincts combo breaker. Burst was once throw invulnerable and had a certain range which allowed you to change your combos up to try and avoid it or make a read during your optimal combos to land a throw which then has your opponent still be playing mid combo as they need to think about burst usage, but KI takes it to another level. KI's combos can get pretty crazy but because of the combo breaker system it forces you to explore your character's combo theory to keep your opponent guessing but then you have the option to read your opponent AND BREAK YOUR OPPONENTS COMBO BREAKER. I fucking love KI's combo breaker system bruh.
Tekken 5: I liked it, but maybe it's now too boring in today's standards.
Tekken 6: just perfect. A bit tad long in my opinion though.
Tekken 7 & 8: tornado and then use heat and then rage art are the major problems in combo length. I could just have a sip of coffee when hit by combos. It's fun at first when I am doing the combos but it gets boring quick. Rage art should add a skip button.
I'll be honest - I love long combos and their flourishes! In single-player games, like DMC. Part of the reason my friends and I stopped playing fighting games, however, is because of the long-combo meta. As we got better and better, it just got less and less fun - fundamentally because it guaranteed that literally some of us just wouldn't even be playing at all.
Every game devolved into "I'm getting juggled, so I guess I'll go get a snack or pull up my phone" and "I'm juggling, watch me pull of this crazy combo for 70% of your health - FUCK I fucking missed that last bit, sigh, what a waste." And by the end of the match, we're all kind of just tired and basically doing our own thing. It literally made us feel like we were interacting LESS with each other and the game.
There was no rollercoaster ride of excitement. Allegorically, it went from "I'm having an engaging conversation with friends" to "I'm being talked at by, or talking to, someone who stopped paying attention."
watched a jojos all stars r and the puchi player and a command grab route and when they dash out try to get in a prefect spot to arch the jump back in. once they get two meter they stay outta range and play zoning.
you expected to see tods from top players yet you rarely see it simply due to routes for management. long combos and combos in general at fighting killers, i can't do combos so I'm below average and shouldn't bother playing mentality. that's why better fighting games have easier combos.
again sf2 THE GAME only has very short combos it's more about the setup and how they get to that position
the higher you get in skill)ranked the less you see long combos, players have like 3 combos with long block strings into mix ups. watch tournaments and you'll see it. you expect top players to do long combos with crazy moments but you just see 6 hit combos and go wait? i can do that
couldnt agree with this more. it isn't fun learning long combos, it isn't fun getting hit with long combos. i hate how fg have transitioned from "lets jump in and have some matches" to "lets jump into training for hours before we even start". yeah everything doesn't need to be divekick, but this comboporn shit is wack.
I like to keep combos simple, personal BnB. Something I can keep spamming when I try to control the neutral and apply some mind games.
Long combos would be ok if there was a way the opponent can skillfully escape them. I forget which game has a way to escape being juggled by teching mid air, but I don't see why that's not a thing in other fgs. Also, air blocking. SF 3 has mid air blocking and parrying....why doesn't 6?
Every time I think about length of combos - I think about melty blood autocombo. "Press C 6 times". And sure, in context of that game it makes sense, easy to use string, that you can branch out on each individual press of the buttton. But also; wouldn't it have been better if it was a fixed damage short move, instead of a 3 second juggle?
I love fixed damage, comboless games. I am fully aware I'm in minority. Lethal League, Divekick (there was an update just yesterday, what a timing!) Fantasy Strike, they are not exactly bursting with players. Smash bros kind of sits on the border, right?... But it's because I do not enjoy learning combos.
Also, players are kind of forced into doing them. Games are entirely different when mashing on lowest level. And when you can kill opponent in 3-4 combos, they can do the same to you. (but it's not straight bad - '2 games for the price of one!' hehe)
I'm thinking Lowain gameplan - people are playing him just to sit on 100 super meter, to activate Iggy as soon as they are in last blue hitpoints. Other super is alright, but doesn't make a raid boss out of you. Lowain got healing to manipulate healthbar to get to blue health. And it gets, uhh, kind of boring knowing exactly what they are going to do, no surprises. Solution is of course - to manipulate health yourself; make it so you skip that dangerous blue health, by stopping combo before they are in blue.
But, not everybody can do a combo that's skipping blue health. Then Iggy is guaranteed to appear.
So, long combos are a solution - to games built entirely around long combos.
I don't care if there's a burst mechanic. it's not enough. unless I literally have DI and SDI from melee I will not be playing a fighting game with long combos. I hate them forever
It's interesting that you compared long combos to anime fights, then showed a clip of two characters going back and forth with no clear "combo." I'm not sure why the term "anime fighter" is associated with long uninterrupted strings of attacks. Most of the anime fights I see are far less one-sided with their exchanges.
I prefer smaller combos in general. I like getting to the point where the game is about "how" to apply combos and noy just a test on "if" i can do the combo. I totally get why some people love long combos, but its not for me. I prefer titles like sf6 and mk1 over anime fighters or tekken
Simple is best. I just nickle and dime them
It doesnt matter Uncle Ben
Power Rangers Battle For The Grid is still peak.
First we actually need Virtua Fighter 6 to get announced
Time to mention a special strange Fighting Game, Absolver.
The system is special, basically Mount & Blades meets Darksouls.
Does this game have long combos? Yes, but long combos are a for a character build. Long combos cost more stamina.
Does this game need short combos even single hits? Yes, there's a move that uses stamina to change your gestures, it can confuse your opponent effectively.
And with stylish move like counter parry & dogge, you can gain your stamina back immediately.
So in this game's match, you can see long combo fighters fighting gesture changing fighters back and forth, very beautiful.
Go and check out some maches LOL.
BTW. those developers made a PVE fighting game called SiFu.
not even remotely then same thing
I hate short combos unless it's like tekken
Auto combos are the dumbest thing.
But theres also an entire subgenre of FGs where you die in one hit 😂
Solo playing is boring. I'm here to play against someone, not to masturbate or to watch my opponent doing it. Combos don't need to be short, but they must be reasonable. IMO anything over 10 seconds is too much. Anything over 15 seconds is cancer.
I also like shorter combo games
i do like longer combos, i dont like infinites or loops, they are just boring, i like when they have start,middle and end with creativety in it, but if shorter was the way MK11 was critized injustice(ly)(did you see what i did here?)
hardly creative if you spam the same thing, if your combo is 100 true no routes then that's the issue, atlest long combos are actually doing somethijg. rather then i touched you i play game now. if you let someone go to reset the route or do something else. or you let them go and jump so they will waste their breakout ect ect.
2xKO?🤨 You mean DOUBLE KO
I like long combos but not slow animations...
I think arguing "more time for neutral" isn't an automatic win. Pacing is important in games and it's good to have periods of up and downtime.
Turning to a non fighting game, Snooker.
Snookers 147 combo is about 10 minutes long of the opponent sat waiting, but they still have enough players/viewers to run tournaments with a £2,000,000 total prize pool.
So long as combos are fun to do -- and difficult enough that it's hype when someone pulls it off -- I don't see a problem with them.
More neutral sounds good in theory, but the "mind games" in fighting games usually boil down to Rock Paper Scissors and aren't actually that interesting.
It's not meant to be win, honestly. I tried to express that there is a valid reason for both styles. Long sequences work well for Marvel or Skullgirls, those games wouldn't be the same without them. It's more so about offering some points of what short combos can offer *when* the game is actually built around them.
RPS will always be a part of fighting game, but if it was just about guessing, it wouldn't be an immensely skill-intensive genre that it is. There's a lot to goes into it, which is exciting in its own way, especially when the game leans in on it, like VF or SC.
I actively lean towards characters with slow powerful hits because I'm less interested in combos and more interested in mind games
Just keep it between 5 to 10 seconds.
When new VF :)
Brawlhala.
the appropiate combo length, like most things, is not as subjective as it may appear at first glance. it's all about the proportion of time spent in combos vs on pressure and in neutral. and how frequent the longest sequences are or how many resources they need.
games where the 3 are relatively balanced just work better, while games where they aren't start getting frustrating or boring.
What is frustrating/boring for you can be fun for other people.
So It's still subjective. I think you're stuck seeing your feelings as "correct" or not recognising other people have different feelings.
Some people like touch of death combos in Marvel Vs Capcom. Other people like Virtual Fighter.
For me, long combos only feel long when the same moves are repeated and/or the moves are slow. FighterZ has a lot of long combos because a lot of moves you do in the combos are normals. Compare it to Marvel 3 and you see how the characters use a lot more specials in their combos, so I don’t consider those long.
both of those examples are too long
@@zachstarattack7320 That’s the thing though. If it looks cool, it doesn’t feel long. Marvel 3 combos aren’t long to me because the combos look cooler than something like FighterZ combos. It really just depends on how the combo flows together.
tekken's combos are the perfect length imo
No imo, maybe older versions but not tekken tag and not 7&8
No one enjoys getting floated all the way to the wall for more than 20 seconds. The opening skit in this video is literally from tekken 8 and it wouldnt be out of place in t7. The heat system has a whole combo extention mechanic built in too
The combos are getting longer added with cinematic finishers
5 seconds is the right amount
If the long combo requires a certain level of skill, I'd be intrigued to watch it instead of just sitting and waiting for it to end.
However, a combo breaker of some sort is a must and I don't know why SF or Tekken haven't implemented it already.
im surprised that you say fighting games today dont have short combos cuz thats kinda the opposite. most games today have pretty short combos compared to older games. sf6, ggst, and granblue are 3 big games today that dont have long combos unless you either spend a ton of resources or get huge counterhits which i dont think should rule out a game as having short combos either. saying sf6 has long combos because you can spend 100% of your drive gauge to get one doesnt make sense cuz youre not going to do that in every match at anytime.
Eh, I have to disagree. SF6 gives you combo resources at the round start, so if you manage it well, you'll always have the DR and EX moves to extend your combos. Without resources, it's definitely short, but that's why we put emphasis on disparity between short combos vs short combos when you don't have resources. Consistency, or the average length, is important, and all 3 of those games have a massive range from shortest to longest combos, unlike games like VF, SamSho, or SC games before 6.
If it’s not Marvel, I don’t like long combos. And I especially don’t like them in Tekken!
Modern day fighting games now have combos that lasts for like 10 to 20 seconds
I hate them i prefer fighting games where you only can launch short combos by default like tekken tag 1 or tekken 4
we don't need this nonsense like in tekken tag 2, tekken 7 or 8
long combos are thw shit
Whooping your opponents ass isn’t enough it’s about providing an experience.
I kept you on the edge of your seat in the neutral then proceeded to hit you with a mix that had ya heart racing, you guessed wrong and got a free combo AND a free movie all at the same damn time! what more could you ask for😂💀
Scaling.
Tell me you didn't really play Soulcalibur VI without Telling me you didn't play Soulcalibur VI. Some of the combos can get really long.
More bad news for you. Its rumored that the New VF may have more mechanics this time around.
Long combos in SC6 are still on the shorter end and often need Soul charge, a specific counter or lethal hit or the wall.
Even only some characters go really crazy with combos
@@boredomkiller99 but they exist
Not a fan that Tekken combos are now getting longer.
In Tekken all they need to do is just remove the bound/screw/tornado.
So every launch will be like a low parry combo.
Which is already long enough. You can get like 7 to 9 hits in.
@@CosmicVoid420 It all it takes now is 2 launch and your dead. Added the fact that many stages are now gimicky
But they’re better if they are
Complaining that Skullgirls has long combos is like complaining that Capcom VS games are unbalanced imo that’s literally the appeal…. killer instinct now on the other hand fixed this issue
Yes, that is mentioned right after that
Thats why mk11 is still king.