I don't like a lot of the machining "influencer" channels due to the showboating and puffery, so I appreciate your straight forward and concise presentation. Will keep your channel in my "check it out" list.
One youtube channel dominates the searches for anything machining related and its the one channel i dont wanna watch ever! I wish channels like this were recommended over that influencer bs. Nice video, exactly what i was looking for!
You should try SANDVIK 1020 grade carbide inserts for 718. I have a lot of videos of machining 718. Ignore the book and discover your own speeds and feed. Great video 👍
As others have said, find your own speeds and feeds. Using the tool mfgs s&f will eat through the inserts extremely fast. Remember that they're in the business of selling more tools.
@998 Squid I’m a manufacturers representative and I do make a living selling, testing and recommending cutting tools. I want customers to make as much profit as possible, I know if they are profitable they will come back and buy more. If they are going through too many tools on a job they will be looking to my competition to make the job run better and lower the cost. If you’re dealing with salespeople that care more about the sale, than your productivity you are working with the wrong suppliers.
You might want to mention that the wire EDM cutting can be used for roughing, but you you should probably finish surfaces with carbide (much like cutting with ceramics). You also may have some customers who specifically forbid EDM due to the risks associated with surface chemistry changes (mostly in aerospace).
This was our first time using them. They take practice and $$$$$$ to dial in a process, but if you have the production work for them, they can be made to last longer than shown , and also they cut 20 times faster , so it will greatly reduce machine time on big expensive machines.
Soo much too learn. I got a Haas for graduation. It’s being installed in my shop now. Just waiting for the power company to do what they need to. It’s okay tho because I’m still waiting for a lot of tooling I ordered from Sandvik and Superior. I just can’t believe I spent so much. Like $150,000 just for inserts, tooling, vices and software for my laptop and desktops.
Thanks, I liked the video. I had no idea that a cutting edge would only last 5 minutes at optimum cutting speed, whether for carbide cutting slower or ceramic cutting faster. Nor that the carbide would need to be slowed to 100 sfm. Could you possibly do better with square or other straight sided inserts instead of the round ones you showed? The round edges have the problem that each portion cuts at a different angle, so along the bottom they are barely shaving off any material, while farther up they cut thicker chips, cannot be optimum in both portions. I do think that the interrupted cut is not a problem for milling, since the milling edges always have interrupted cuts, re-engaging on every revolution of the cutter.
We also use octagonal inserts for face milling inconel, and have noticed about the close to the same results for tool life. However, endmills can last a LOT longer, and usually see over 50 minutes obtained with an endmill, even at a higher SFM (but definitely not over 200). If the material was not heat treated (annealed) the sfm could be increased to 200 with carbide, and you would see 30+ min of tool life with the I would be interested to try a feed mill next, which may be able to double or triple the material removal rate for carbide, but the high hardness of the inconel is what really kills the insert. I agree that milling is always an interrrupted cut vs a lathe, where there is a beautiful single point contact . However, for the case of the ceramic, coming on and off the part plays a HUGE role in tool life. Picture that tool going at 15,000 rpm. The material it is in contact with is in constant engagement, and the tool is spinning so fast, its almost constantly on the material, but when you come off and re engage the material again, you are going to SHOCK the insert, you can hear it when it happens, and it should be avoided as much as possible.
MooreCNC Titan Gilroy posted pictures of what he calls a "zombie mill" because, when cutting hard inconel, it gets chips that make it look ugly but continues to work well (at least for roughing) for several hours. "the Cutter Ran for 7+ Hours in Hardened Inconel 718... Got chipped flutes after hour 4, Chunks Out after hour 5... Lost an entire lower part of a flute by hour 6 and the Cutter Just Kept Cutting... Eating INCO. Just would not Die... " Sorry I do not have a link to the original posting. These are Kennametal HARVI 3 EndMills. You have a picture showing a ruined tool from running an insert too long, but the endmill will be discarded anyway when worn out. Also facebook.com/groups/titansofcncacademy/permalink/370666213453131/ shows Sandvik Sialon ceramic grade inserts. The author did not say how long they lasted. There is some discussion that this kind of cutter will fail quickly if coolant is applied (your video is also dry), because they heat on each cut and cool off between.
My friend told me about the 7 hr end mill in inconel that Titan used. I am really interested to try that out-- or find the link. We do deep pockets in the inconel and use coolant with solid carbide, but for most cases the harder the material= less likely to use coolant, because the insert will crack from thermal shock just like you mentioned. There are a lot of other factors that I forgot to point out.. like when we face mill, we don't go over 50 % step over with this stuff. Taking step overs bigger than the tool when climb milling will also make you conventional mill.. Ah so much to know and I am learning everyday. Thank you for the great comments! I cannot wait for IMTS next week!
You do not want to use coolant when cutting with ceramic tools. Thermal stresses are induced and the insert will crack very fast. Same thing applies for using carbide to machine hardened steel (hard milling), just air blast to clear the chips
The machine was installed like that. my best guess is: It is the generic standoff also used with 5 axis trunnions so the spindle can reach without clearance issues.
@@MooreCNC makes sense for 5 axis, am hoping to have on soon or a 42SWi trunnion head. i have a VM10i and my tool probe was always in the way. out of necessity i designed these tools making your tool probe removeable without re-calibration. Your grandfather would love it as it is kinematically correct!
@@MooreCNC makes sense i surmise for a 5-axis. am hoping to have a vm30ui or 42swi before years end. i have a vm10i with a tool probe and as useful as it is, its often in the way. so out of necessity i designed two demountable systems that allow you to remove and install a tool probe in seconds with no tools or recalibration. free up precious table space, protect your probe and even share single a tool probe across multiple machines. here are some links...curious what your grandfather would think as these are kinematically correct and thus highly repeatible. ua-cam.com/video/JVSCUpSzCPQ/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/CGXSuNJ876s/v-deo.html best of luck keeping the dream alive!
@@exactengineering4856 That's a very smart idea you have!! It is a pain to have to put back on our tool probes after taking them off. Have you heard of the kinematic canoe sphere? Its overkill for your current needs with the probe, but we have used them where high force is in play and they are extremely rigid and repeatable. www.precisionballs.com/All_Vee_Blocks.php#vbprc
@@MooreCNC btw, my first comment via "kinematic" is my personal account and i noticed when i was posting i had the wrong account so i hit delete, but i guess it sent it anyways thats why the two comments are the same. sorry for the confusion. btw, those canoe spheres are awesome! i just used a set on a off-axis collimator we designed that weighed 3000lbs! some of the optics were over 250lbs and the entire system was athermalized. let me know if you are interested in a demountable tool probe...i can hook u up!
Don't use ceramic on the vertical mill. It will damage the spindle. If you cut ceramic tool your floor will change to black. What do you think will your lung won't change color? It does work on cnc lathe.
@@TheWireEDM I guess Thinh Dao is concerned about the huge spindle loads (although we were under 40 percent mostly). It is dangerous because the tool can burn out real fast and you can smash your spindle.
The okuma in the video is double the weight and has almost double the HP as the VM20i seen in the intro. Had the hurco been a VMX (perfomance) vs the general purpose machine it is (VM series), we could have machined it on there. But one of the main key points of our channel is to have people learn CNC on a conversation control vs traditional NC.. it's an easier learning curve. I try not to be biased, but it's hard when Hurco is such a fun machine to use... we also really enjoy our HAAS , Fanuc, etc. Etc. and they definitely all have their place in a shop. Purpose of this video is to talk about cost and time savings of ceramic and carbide on Inconel. I appreciate the questions none the less and good observation on noticing the Okuma, it's an incredible machine!
@@MooreCNC makes sense, this is the first video I've watched of your channel, I think I was just expecting a hurco then I saw an okuma and was surprised.
Used greenleaf's wg300 and some different Kennametal grades. For these we used superiormachinetools.com, really nice folks. The people at greenleaf will help with speeds and feeds and cutter body geometry. Use a positive rake cutter for harder materials and negative rake for softer. We used a positive rake, but unfortunately results in single sided insert, so its a lot more expensive
I don't like a lot of the machining "influencer" channels due to the showboating and puffery, so I appreciate your straight forward and concise presentation. Will keep your channel in my "check it out" list.
One youtube channel dominates the searches for anything machining related and its the one channel i dont wanna watch ever! I wish channels like this were recommended over that influencer bs. Nice video, exactly what i was looking for!
I wanted to see the wire EDM result :(
You should try SANDVIK 1020 grade carbide inserts for 718. I have a lot of videos of machining 718. Ignore the book and discover your own speeds and feed. Great video 👍
I will have to try that out! Thank you!
David Wilks has a great deal of experience with exotics and difficult machining conditions (trepanning), so his advice is valuable and accurate.
You should try rough cutting blanks with abrasive waterjet cutting ,then do the finish machining.
Yes, i wonder how that would do in comparison to carbide, ceramic and wire
As others have said, find your own speeds and feeds. Using the tool mfgs s&f will eat through the inserts extremely fast. Remember that they're in the business of selling more tools.
@998 Squid I’m a manufacturers representative and I do make a living selling, testing and recommending cutting tools. I want customers to make as much profit as possible, I know if they are profitable they will come back and buy more. If they are going through too many tools on a job they will be looking to my competition to make the job run better and lower the cost. If you’re dealing with salespeople that care more about the sale, than your productivity you are working with the wrong suppliers.
wow we r using ceramic good ,and manufactring
You might want to mention that the wire EDM cutting can be used for roughing, but you you should probably finish surfaces with carbide (much like cutting with ceramics). You also may have some customers who specifically forbid EDM due to the risks associated with surface chemistry changes (mostly in aerospace).
Thank you for the support and kind words! Great point about the EDM surface finish and surface damage from microfractures and composition changes.
How would it be profitable using ceramic inserts if that's the case? That's very expensive. Awesome video, thanks for the great tips
This was our first time using them. They take practice and $$$$$$ to dial in a process, but if you have the production work for them, they can be made to last longer than shown , and also they cut 20 times faster , so it will greatly reduce machine time on big expensive machines.
Soo much too learn.
I got a Haas for graduation. It’s being installed in my shop now. Just waiting for the power company to do what they need to. It’s okay tho because I’m still waiting for a lot of tooling I ordered from Sandvik and Superior.
I just can’t believe I spent so much. Like $150,000 just for inserts, tooling, vices and software for my laptop and desktops.
What are you using for software?
You should've spent the money on a better machine.
@Brad Viviviyal you mean the shop my daddy didn't buy for me?
Money well spent
What is the WEDM machine? After the appearance of the lower head, it seems that unfortunately Fanuc ...
I can only imagine the money that is tied up in all that how much does a machine like that run?
That hurco or edm? Edm is more exspensive.
Great video!!!
Thanks Jayne!
Thanks, I liked the video. I had no idea that a cutting edge would only last 5 minutes at optimum cutting speed, whether for carbide cutting slower or ceramic cutting faster. Nor that the carbide would need to be slowed to 100 sfm. Could you possibly do better with square or other straight sided inserts instead of the round ones you showed? The round edges have the problem that each portion cuts at a different angle, so along the bottom they are barely shaving off any material, while farther up they cut thicker chips, cannot be optimum in both portions.
I do think that the interrupted cut is not a problem for milling, since the milling edges always have interrupted cuts, re-engaging on every revolution of the cutter.
We also use octagonal inserts for face milling inconel, and have noticed about the close to the same results for tool life. However, endmills can last a LOT longer, and usually see over 50 minutes obtained with an endmill, even at a higher SFM (but definitely not over 200). If the material was not heat treated (annealed) the sfm could be increased to 200 with carbide, and you would see 30+ min of tool life with the
I would be interested to try a feed mill next, which may be able to double or triple the material removal rate for carbide, but the high hardness of the inconel is what really kills the insert.
I agree that milling is always an interrrupted cut vs a lathe, where there is a beautiful single point contact . However, for the case of the ceramic, coming on and off the part plays a HUGE role in tool life. Picture that tool going at 15,000 rpm. The material it is in contact with is in constant engagement, and the tool is spinning so fast, its almost constantly on the material, but when you come off and re engage the material again, you are going to SHOCK the insert, you can hear it when it happens, and it should be avoided as much as possible.
MooreCNC Titan Gilroy posted pictures of what he calls a "zombie mill" because, when cutting hard inconel, it gets chips that make it look ugly but continues to work well (at least for roughing) for several hours.
"the Cutter Ran for 7+ Hours in Hardened Inconel 718... Got chipped flutes after hour 4, Chunks Out after hour 5... Lost an entire lower part of a flute by hour 6 and the Cutter Just Kept Cutting... Eating INCO. Just would not Die... "
Sorry I do not have a link to the original posting. These are Kennametal HARVI 3 EndMills.
You have a picture showing a ruined tool from running an insert too long, but the endmill will be discarded anyway when worn out.
Also facebook.com/groups/titansofcncacademy/permalink/370666213453131/ shows Sandvik Sialon ceramic grade inserts. The author did not say how long they lasted. There is some discussion that this kind of cutter will fail quickly if coolant is applied (your video is also dry), because they heat on each cut and cool off between.
My friend told me about the 7 hr end mill in inconel that Titan used. I am really interested to try that out-- or find the link. We do deep pockets in the inconel and use coolant with solid carbide, but for most cases the harder the material= less likely to use coolant, because the insert will crack from thermal shock just like you mentioned.
There are a lot of other factors that I forgot to point out.. like when we face mill, we don't go over 50 % step over with this stuff. Taking step overs bigger than the tool when climb milling will also make you conventional mill..
Ah so much to know and I am learning everyday. Thank you for the great comments!
I cannot wait for IMTS next week!
Do you use any coolant machining this Inconel?
No. Maybe pure pressurised air to blow chips.
Why didn't you use coolant?
You do not want to use coolant when cutting with ceramic tools. Thermal stresses are induced and the insert will crack very fast. Same thing applies for using carbide to machine hardened steel (hard milling), just air blast to clear the chips
was noticing your tool probe is mounted on a tall standoff. why have you done that?
The machine was installed like that. my best guess is: It is the generic standoff also used with 5 axis trunnions so the spindle can reach without clearance issues.
@@MooreCNC makes sense for 5 axis, am hoping to have on soon or a 42SWi trunnion head. i have a VM10i and my tool probe was always in the way. out of necessity i designed these tools making your tool probe removeable without re-calibration. Your grandfather would love it as it is kinematically correct!
@@MooreCNC makes sense i surmise for a 5-axis. am hoping to have a vm30ui or 42swi before years end.
i have a vm10i with a tool probe and as useful as it is, its often in the way. so out of necessity i designed two demountable systems that allow you to remove and install a tool probe in seconds with no tools or recalibration. free up precious table space, protect your probe and even share single a tool probe across multiple machines.
here are some links...curious what your grandfather would think as these are kinematically correct and thus highly repeatible.
ua-cam.com/video/JVSCUpSzCPQ/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/CGXSuNJ876s/v-deo.html
best of luck keeping the dream alive!
@@exactengineering4856 That's a very smart idea you have!! It is a pain to have to put back on our tool probes after taking them off. Have you heard of the kinematic canoe sphere? Its overkill for your current needs with the probe, but we have used them where high force is in play and they are extremely rigid and repeatable. www.precisionballs.com/All_Vee_Blocks.php#vbprc
@@MooreCNC btw, my first comment via "kinematic" is my personal account and i noticed when i was posting i had the wrong account so i hit delete, but i guess it sent it anyways thats why the two comments are the same. sorry for the confusion.
btw, those canoe spheres are awesome! i just used a set on a off-axis collimator we designed that weighed 3000lbs! some of the optics were over 250lbs and the entire system was athermalized.
let me know if you are interested in a demountable tool probe...i can hook u up!
Don't use ceramic on the vertical mill. It will damage the spindle. If you cut ceramic tool your floor will change to black. What do you think will your lung won't change color? It does work on cnc lathe.
Yes , definitely should use caution
Why would it damage the spindle?
@@TheWireEDM I guess Thinh Dao is concerned about the huge spindle loads (although we were under 40 percent mostly). It is dangerous because the tool can burn out real fast and you can smash your spindle.
@@MooreCNC Makes sense. Best would be to have a machine controller that can detect an overload and shut it down or switch to a new tool.
@@TheWireEDM Okumas have Load Monitor function
is this machining done on Okuma Genos M560?
Yes ! We should have been more clear about that
How come the intro is done infront of a hurco, but the machining is done on an Okuma?
The okuma in the video is double the weight and has almost double the HP as the VM20i seen in the intro. Had the hurco been a VMX (perfomance) vs the general purpose machine it is (VM series), we could have machined it on there. But one of the main key points of our channel is to have people learn CNC on a conversation control vs traditional NC.. it's an easier learning curve. I try not to be biased, but it's hard when Hurco is such a fun machine to use... we also really enjoy our HAAS , Fanuc, etc. Etc. and they definitely all have their place in a shop.
Purpose of this video is to talk about cost and time savings of ceramic and carbide on Inconel. I appreciate the questions none the less and good observation on noticing the Okuma, it's an incredible machine!
@@MooreCNC makes sense, this is the first video I've watched of your channel, I think I was just expecting a hurco then I saw an okuma and was surprised.
What type of ceramic is the insert? Who is your supplier?
Used greenleaf's wg300 and some different Kennametal grades. For these we used superiormachinetools.com, really nice folks. The people at greenleaf will help with speeds and feeds and cutter body geometry. Use a positive rake cutter for harder materials and negative rake for softer. We used a positive rake, but unfortunately results in single sided insert, so its a lot more expensive
imagine the pain of being hit in the face with one of those chips
Yyyyyouch!!