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I've Discovered Something Strange. This Video WILL Be Controversial | Knife Edge Retention Testing
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- Опубліковано 10 тра 2018
- S30v vs 8cr13mov vs 1080 edge retention testing.
So this is strange, s30v should WAY out perform 8cr13mov in edge retention. There is no funny business and I don't have an agenda. I just don't see that much difference between these 3 steels.
I assure you there is nothing wrong with my spyderco sage 1. Ive tested it against other knives in other steels and it everything is very close. If your paying 3-4 times as much for a particular steel, especially one that is hyped to be SO much better shouldn't you see that during testing? Maybe I didn't cut enough? But heres the thing, By the time I was done testing neither knife was sharp and needed to be resharpened. The sage 1 (s30v) was, by most standards dull. So, both knives were dull....shouldnt there be a significant difference?
I honestly don't know how anyone could tell a difference between these knives. Now, I have seen terrible edge retention with other knives in 8cr13mov. Practically dulling after the first cut. But it seems with proper heat treating these so called "cheap steels" can hold their own.
Knife manufactures can leave their steel as hard or as soft as they see fit. If they are manufacturing a knife with a very low price point, it might be in their best interest to leave that particular steel softer, in case it was to be used as a pry bar (a softer tempered steel is stronger and less prone to shattering if broken). This is just a though. Expensive knives are less likely to be used as prying tools and maybe they leave that steel slightly harder in that application. Again, just a though.
Just to be clear, this test was done over the course of 3 days. And I cut a lot more cardboard, carpet, and rope, then what was shown. Realize I have to edit this video down into about 10 minutes. Maybe next test will be a full un-cut test thats last 5 hours. 😩😉
This video will be controversial, please keep it civil Thanks!
About⬇️
Hi, Im Alex, im a knife maker and UA-camr, based out of southern Pennsylvania and my youtube channel is Outdoors55. This channel started as an outdoor backpacking channel, but quickly grew into a knife/ knife making channel. Everything I do on my channel is family friendly. I primarily focus on knife / knife making videos but occasionally throw in something different. Thank you for watching!😀
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Just to be clear this is a "real world test". Theres a lot of variables involved with edge retention testing that are not covered. The point is, does edge retention testing really matter, if you don't take the time to figure out what works best for that particular steel. Most people don't take the time, so is it worth it to get a "Super steel"? So, I have to spend countless hours of research and testing in order to find out what works best for a particular steel? Personally, id rather just spend less money on 1095 and oil it. Just my take on my outcome. Thanks for taking the time to watch😀
Well industry needs to maximize profits so they have interest to market more expensive steels.. They require more abrasives, energies, time etc.. And end user will pay for it. I am not against high wear steels but for most applications related to hand knives they arent optimal.
Read this for little understanding whats going on:
www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?5,68099,page=1
I personally use services of a tester with methodology that cant be compared to what You posted.
ua-cam.com/users/pavolko10videos
And still I realise a huge error sources present..
Once I left a longer comment on Cedrics channel but he havent replied
nor learnt from it. I make knives If Cedrics tests results would have
any use to me as a database I would be interested to study
and find correlation with the real use.
But methodology is too lousy, measurement accuracy low.
Results evaluation none.
(Much) better yet: 1095 and water quench it and temper it right, oil is for the weak man.
(take this with a sense of humor, but I do prefer water by a large margin. Still it’s a personal preference and you do a good job).
PS: a petty one has to explain so much when writing on the internet as to minimize misinterpretations which still happen...
I think its the quality of the steel or the way its heat treated , I have a benchmade 710 with m390 steel and its way to soft it dulls faster than any knife I own and its way easy to sharpen. It has the factory angle and a polished edge and the steel is not right.I bought it because I heard many say they liked m390 but this knife is definitely not a super steel.
Outstanding revealing the dirty truth!
Industry is shady gotta sell new products year after year....... Only variable would be that you didn't sharpen to each knives maximum potential...... Harder steel finer edge longer cut? Food for thought... Aloha and thanks once again.... 1050 water quench even less expensive than 1095 ......
Girlfriend: Why does your arm have patches of hair?
You: I was finding the difference between 8cr and s30v
Girlfriend: which is better?
You: I don't want to talk about it...
I've actually had this exact conversation
jovian filippone it’s always funny to see the look of utter confusion on their face when u say shaved patches of ur arm hair off with a knife
😂👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
that is hilarious!! lol
Wow! A girlfriend that understands that there are different grades of steel!
She's a keeper!
The best part about science is that it is completely unconcerned with what "should " happen. You got a result, if it upsets people, too bad.
I kind of like the surprising results.
Hi Alex.
At the end the DIY 1080, to my ear had slightly more noise in the final cardboard cuts. In my experience this can indicate that it isn't as sharp as when less noise is produced.
Edge geometry is one of the most significant factors of cutting performance. See Cliff S's vids and comments on various forums to learn more.
He has a vid where he sharpens and tests a knife with a most demanding occasional use of slicing wood. He starts with acute angles that are way too weak to hold their geometry and works up to where he finds an optimal geometry for sharpness and edge retention. The steel in the knife was 12C27, Razor blade steel.
At the end he had basically demonstrated how to determine optimal sharpening geometry for the steel/knife you have and how you use it. The Vid name is Normark EKA 12C27 : optimal edge geometry for slicing hardwoods (norton economy fine edge)
If you want to go deeper, try the vid titled "Edge retention as a function of micro-bevel angle : VG-10, S30V ..."
Cheers Sincerely David
I would rather have a 15$ 440C and sharpen it every once in a while rather than a 100$ M390 that I am too scared to use anyway.
I am starting to think that people that swore their super steel knife has better edge retention doesn't even use it half as much as people who use regular steel knife, fueling the belief that their super steel knife has twice the edge retention.
Matthew M exactly, 440C is a good ol steel
ngentotsemua
Just look at the condition of the knives these steel snob Jones’ show that are “super steels”, they look brand new out of the box. This tells you all you need to know.
My CPM SxxV Knives have more wear, scratches and grime on them in two days than these guys show you after a few months or even a year or so. To me they don’t seem any better than 12C27.
lol
Cheap 440C is the way I roll as well. Inexpensive and easily sharpened. Why waste your hard earned $$$$ on the exotic.
Good point im much more likely to use my 20 dollar knife for cutting abrasive things than my 100 dollar Kershaw
Kershaw........ :)
@@jimwampler6210
My tests all do the printer paper thing, which is pretty forgiving compared to tissue, or hair shaving. But I’ve had a few weird results, some S35VN that way undercut and some M390 on a steel will that was very soft, and when I got a replacement it was markedly different. But yes, its a field where there are no firm answers and repetitive and boring data harvesting from many sources is the only real way to form a clear picture. Plus edge geometries play a huge part - I’ll do a 20° per side worksharp and get say, 100 cuts, then push it back a bit to a 17° high polish, and get 140 cuts. Raw, non anecdotal data from many more people than just me and the other handful is the best way to know for sure.
I agree, edge angle and other factors play a huge difference. I’m sure my tests results were a result of some factor I didn’t account for. Plus, on a larger, more controlled scale perhaps. I guess I should just leave the edge retention testing up to the pros😉 👍
OUTDOORS55 no on the contrary, everyone should test everything!! Every bit of shown and recorded testing has value, plus it would let the companies know that their stuff is actually fairly likely to be used and measured, which could only inprove their dilligence. Its a fair endeavor but all numbers people can be bothered to capture and record are good ones 😊
Thanks for chiming in! Good to hear your thoughts my friend 👍
If motivating factor for manufacturer to maintain certain quality is the fear of lousy product being exposed, then it isnt the manufaturer one should buy from anyway.
OUTDOORS55 try them all with a toothy edge from your lansky. This has me interested lol
Put me in the “not surprised”/ “I told ya so” column 😊 Thanks for the real life results man
Kme Sharpeners this is very rare indeed to see Ron himself comment!
This is very interesting. I figured the s30v would far exceed the 8cr13mov. Another great video. Hope all is well Alex. Thanks for the video
Get it sharp. Keep it sharp. Take care of your blade and it will take care of you.
Great test. I would love to see some blind tests done with several people and unmarked blades to see if anyone can identify the SuperSteel of budget steel. Guessing almost everyone would fail.
Edge or Rockwell hardness is the main mover in edge retention. Way out of line to have the same RC on an alphabet soup edge as a s30v edge don't you think? If you're interested in going all the way on this I would suggest going on Fleabay and purchasing a set of Rockwell testing files. Shouldn't break the bank and would be great to have around for all your future knives. Wouldn't it be hilarious if all three have the same edge hardness? That's my best guess. Don't let this go - a whole series of videos that would be super interesting could be brewing. Good luck man!
Vanadium is probably the main mover in edge retention. my guess is that the stropping compound is polishing the steel matrix around the vanadium in s30v and the vanadium is dropping out. this is something some people have shown microscope images of on a very small scale (SEM imagining). its debatable that this is whats going on here.
there are some people that also had done the test in this video and came to this same conclusion. while others have no issues getting accurate and different tests between steel types.
i do believe that all three of those knives are most likely hardened to around 59 hrc give or take and all three have low percentages of vanadium, with s30v having the most around 4% vanadium iirc.
note that the only material to be able to sharpen vanadium is CBN and Diamonds. ceramic, alum ox and sic will work to sharpen the substrate around the very small vanadium carbides.
its a quagmire really.
Yes, i agree. 4% or lower wont really be of any concern with carbide tear out. though you have to wonder. its possible something is happening on the microscopic level.
+clovehitch
I don't think carbide tearing/ripping is going to be something you'll be able to notice if it's happening with microscopic bits of the carbide at the very apex. Even if you're looking at it under magnification, it might not be apparent, especially after stropping. Keep in mind that with powered steels, too, you're going to get more uniform carbide formation, but even then at the very apex not the entire apex of the knife is going to have carbides be included in the actual apex cutting edge. It simply can't because of carbide formation and the chemistry of the steel meeting such a small space. That's why using diamond to actually cut the carbides alongside the metal without carbide formation will leave a more uniform edge. Even then, you'd have to be using diamond or CBN with "grain" or particulate cutting size that would be within the range of the carbide grain size of your steel if you wanted to be particularly anal about it.
You're only going to see advantages of vanadium carbides when it's the vanadium carbides that you're allowing to do the work. And apexing is more difficult with harder carbides and getting more acute angles means less structural support for the carbides which means it's easier for them to be torn out during sharpening or use. Even then, calling the knife dull once it is no longer shaving is... Eh. My facial hair kills razor blades while my arm hair is multitudes softer. And some days that differs. I've never been particularly fond of using shaving to determine sharpness.
8cr just stains a lot faster then S30V
Steel like s90v and s110v with larger amounts of vanadium will see benifits with diamond strops and even diamond finishing stones above 1k-2k grit.
carbide tear out is less likely happening below 1k grit because even though the vanadium is very small but at a higher percentage in these steel's... 1k grit is a bit larger. were talking about vanadium being around a micron or two in size while 1k grit is no where near a micron in size.
I agree 100%.
If we leave the question of folding knives and whether they are suitable for hard use, if we leave that aside...the fact is that if someone wants a super steel on a hard use knife, then buy a fixed blade.
And I joined the club where I actually am afraid to use my $200 -$300 knives for rough & tumble EDC.
In daily use I thought I was crazy when my VG10 Spydercos seemed to last as long as my S30/35V steel Spydies. I can touch up the VG10 in half the time and it’s edge gets polished easier just on stones. I’m not surprised at all by this. I used to be more of a steel snob but now just buy knives I like the feel and looks of and note the steel last. I’m the type of person who enjoys sharpening and I’m always keeping them in tip tip shape anyways. Thanks for doing this.
From testing many knives,I've come to the conclusion that heat treat matters more than steel.but my usual favorite steel is d2.the right balance of edge retention,price,and ease of sharpening,and almost everyone makes knives in d2
Wow. Great video. It has me scratching my head. Don't stop these comparisons. Something is cooking here.
I really appreciate all your videos and the thoughtfulness and time you put into them. Hope you're around a long time. I wish you nothing but success.
And thank you for the fast response.
Thanks my friend!
I always throw a pinch of salt over my shoulder when i sharpen
For me it’s a pinch of green compound 😉
I find the left shoulder to be the most effective.
I agree being right handed the left shoulder is better lol
I always throw a fit when I try to sharpen my knifes 🙄
Beautiful, dude! Simply beautiful!
It makes me laugh and cry to see you prove things I've always known, and make elitist knife jerks look stupid in the process.
All the knives you tested cut the same, yet have highly varied ease of maintenance. I can't stand super steels, and especially can't stand idiots who dog on simple steels as if they're crap. 1080 and 8cr are far from crap. I'll take a touch 58rc knife I can sharpen on a rock any day of the week, over a brittle ass 64rc knife that can shatter on a staple and becomes useless without diamonds. I'm tired of high prices, lack of options due to sheep mentality, and elitism.
Thanks for all your extremely helpful, honest, and real information on knives and knife making for actual human beings that actually use knives and want to make them on their terms. You're the best thing to happen to the snobless knife community since the Tenacious itself!
And unlike myself, you have a humble and easygoing attitude on it all, which is inspiring.
You da man Bro!
You're out of your mind. My thinned out Manix in 68hrc isn't "brittle" (wtf are you using your cutting tools for??) and could put a hair shaving edge on your blade with the spine of mine. I've been carrying and hand sharpening knives for 30 years. I know what works and doesn't.
Soft knives in simple steels dull sigificantly faster than super steels, and those super steels afford you the ability to run the edge thinner and increase cutting ability (and not shatter on staples..)
And you act like a diamond stone is unobtanium 🤦🏻♂️
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your testing on the steals. I have at least 100 folding knives in my collection and they range from 8CR 13 MOV blade steel and it truly shows that it doesn’t matter what kind of steel it is, whether it’s standard Chinese stainless steel or American made M3 90 blade steel,it will still cut!!
Completely agree I used to carry a benchmade Gripitillian (on the weekend) and a Swiss Army knife (for work). I needed to sharpen them about the same amount. I would have said they got the same amount of use despite getting carried for different lengths of time.
Excellent vid. On occasion I noticed similar findings and just thought I must have sharpened one incorrectly or damaged the blade somehow. I feel better seeing someone else getting 'strange' edge retention as well. Again, great vid.
This is a revolutionary test that’s will save some people a lot of money
I agree. I tried this myself in the past. I found that cheaper steels that should in theory gone blunt quicker not only lasted just as long but we're easier to sharpen in a hurry. Good video. Glad to see someone stick their neck out.
Awesome test dude and great to see such close results. The only thing I did notice was when you did the close up cuts on cardboard towards the end it wasn't so much seeing a difference but hering a difference. The home made spydie almost sounded like it dragged through rather than glide like the genuine ones. But that doesn't take away the edge retention just proves different grinds, steels, hardness etc just come down to personal preference and style of cutting.
Pete at Cedric and Ada gear has done multiple tests of many different types of steel and his results are remarkably consistent. I'm just wondering if there is a variable you might have overlooked ? I'm surprised to say the least .
Failure is always a possibility😉 I do think a retest in in order.
He’s not using the same section of blade.
The variable that Cedric and Ada discovered over time is the type of sharpening you do on a specific steel has a massive impact on its outcome. He's had 47 and 175 cuts with the same steel just by changing up the angles in sharpening.
@@floridadad2817 Yeah agreed. The edge angle does make a significant difference.
This creator has eliminated more variables than Cedric and Ada. If you’re using the same blade, same geometry, same sharpening system, steel doesn’t make a lot of difference; especially if they are hardened similarly.
You make some good points. 1. "working edge" will cut a lot of cardboard. 2. Lower cost steel can get the job done just fine. 3. Hair shaving sharpness is lost quickly with all steel.
What we really pay for is the rest of what generally comes with high price..
I hunt and fish. Generally my knives are kept super sharp and you can tell the difference when skinning out a deer. My EDC knife is usually the Spidie Chef, cutting tasks are mail, Limes and veggies. The corrosion resistance of the LC200N and the thinness behind the edge etc are why it gets a lot of pocket time. I keep a Milwaukee Fast Back in my truck. Hard use tasks are generally done with the correct tool for the job. I can't say for sure if the super steel is any better... The geometry of the blade is better, light weight materials, better deployment, feels good in the hand all worth the extra money. I may begin to appreciate the ease of sharpening of the lower cost materials. ZDP189 is still a pain in the ass to re-profile.
Thanks for the video! PS: I need to warm up to carrying a working edge...
Well i'll be dipped in honey and fed to the lesbian's. Scratching my head.
What
🤣
Are you nuts
That goes to my dictionary
why would the lesbians eat you
I've watched your videos for a long time. Long enough that my views sort of pre-date the habit of automatically liking youtube videos that I appreciate. Back in the day, liking was about making a list to go back to later. I never needed to do that because I remembered your channel name. The interesting thing is that your videos always showed up in my feed. Even if I hadn't watched knife videos in a while, you'd be on my home page. The reason this is odd is that I just realized yesterday that I had never subscribed to your channel. I know subscription is more about notifications, but one would think it would play some part in recommendation. Honestly, I'm glad it didn't work that way, in this case. I have now subscribed, but man, youtube's system is bizarre. I'm a bit worried that now that I've subscribed, your videos will disappear from my feed.
This would be a good test to compare axes that are used to chop. Cutting rope with a knife with this method would fold over any edge. That is why you see no comparable difference. To get the best edge retention with a knife you use a slicing motion. As a wood carver you learn the best method to carve is to slice the wood. When I cut rope I would never use the method you are using. I would slice cut the rope by draping it over the knife, better yet I would use my knife that has a partial blade that was serrated. To better compare knife steel I would devise a test where slicing was involved. When cutting cardboard a great deal of heat is generated that's one reason why box cutters are made with aluminum handles to disperse the heat. And the heat becomes a factor on blade edge retention. Thank you for your videos.
Great video, I like the no nonsense style. Love the honesty. We are all just inquiring minds wanting to know. Some random thoughts, perhaps cutting force (applied) or technique are a factor. The blades do appear to be less sharp at the end.
I have used knives since the 70's and this is also my experience...although cardboard and rope is pretty much the toughest things to cut and "it" dulls my knives super fast whatever steel I use.
i wanna say thank u ...since follow ur channel i finshed my lastest knife in 1080 i can say i luv it . i would have still been trying 2 use 1095 but even 2day i put the 1080 through the ringer n it seem undestrucktable ...no chips rolls tip still on ..so easy 2 heat treat ..even put a hamon on it wit rutlands ..right on dude thanx 4 ur vids
Your diligence is saving millions of of us wasting money and time to find out
This was very interesting, and it seemed like you made every effort to be as consistent and unprejudiced as you could, giving each blade identical treatment. I would be curious if the results would be the same with the edges finished on either higher or lower grits before stropping. Since edges dull via the breaking off of the microteeth, having different sized microteeth might produce a noticably different result. Just a thought. Seemed like a fairly done process, though.
I agree, only thing is. If you sharpen your knives you probably strop as well.
Great video as usual. Back in the days I had 300+ cardboard and rope cutting test on my chanel and my conclusion before deleting them - geometry and comfortable handle matters to me as a user more that the type of steel or the HRc numbers. Second to that - matching the edge finish of a particular steel to a specific job/media to be cut.
Handle comfort is huge! Something I didn’t mention is I had a blister from all the cutting I did in this test (I NEVER get blisters). There’s also a lot more to steel then if it holds an edge. Corrosion resistance, toughness and others. I think no matter the results steel should be looked at as a whole. Rather then if it simply outlasts another steel. Thanks for the comment 👍
Great video just goes to show you how well marketing can influence all of us
I just think that you are exceptional at cutting paper. No matter how much I sharpen my knives on my Edge Pro I can never slice paper. Your slicing skills are incredible. You are truly gifted! Interesting results. Good video.
I used to get these types of results and for a while I didn’t like S30V. Then I learned how to sharpen it. For a long time I wasn’t properly reducing my burr and there for I wasn’t properly deburring causing my S30V not to behave so super. The fine edge would fall off almost immediately and reduce to a very boring “working edge”. Once I got a loupe and a good sharpening system it was game over. Now my S30V really impresses me and with spydercos heat treat it stands up to a lot of these other trendy steels. I can see why this steel has been made the industry standard and I hope it continues to be. A very awesome SUPER steel.
Hi Alex, just a thought here.
I know that in most cases when testing materials the test are not acceptable unless done on a much larger scale.
I would guess the reason being because of so many variables and using a small sample can be questionable!
I understand about you not having the equipment and funds for a large scale test, but still think you done a very good job with this ! 👍
Truthfully, I believe that I would take your real world test over their LAB test, that can be , and probably are skewed in their favor ! 😊
Heck, maybe it's in the angle of the grind, I don't know ? I have found through the years that the angle does make a difference on the knifes that I've made!
Thanks for sharing and take care. 👍 👍
I totally agree angle makes a difference. Perhaps there was something going on with angles. I think a retest is in order where everything is controlled and angles are known rather then freehand. For me this result is still interesting. I think it’s still good data. Although I’d like a more consistent means of testing sharpness. One that’s not up to the tester. 😉
OUTDOORS55
Yes, very good data, and looking forward to more !
Really does make you think about all of the information we've received through the years about knife steel, and many other things as well !
I did some similar testing a while ago. My results were similar and the differences between 8Cr13MoV and S30V were not distinguishable when I stopped testing.
Have we all been duped by marketing?
CircaSriYak every day
Maybe, most of us don't cut with our knives until they are dull, so "lower end" steel might suffice for days on end
CircaSriYak probably!!
no. because i have knives that show a clear indication that one lasts longer than another. there are also multiple tests that also show edge retention. completely unsure whats going on here. im sure there is something to explain it.
Tactical, these knives aren't taken from sharp to dull. They're not going from one extreme to the other. This is more of taking away 30-50% of total edge retention rather than taking away 100%. So it would make sense why they would still cut the paper after all these tests
I think the specifics of how the edge fails is the key. Macro scale hardness measured by indentation just might not be a good proxy measure for how quickly a micro edge wears away, or fails by repeatedly flexing until it breaks, or whatever it actually does.
I have been using knives outdoors all my life. When you use your knife to make pot holders, feather sticks, tent pegs, gut and butcher game, etc., it becomes easy to see really quickly the differences between steels. I like steels like 3V and S35VN. I also like 1095 and 420HC. A well designed knife with great ergonomics and good blade geometry (and a good heat treat) is a joy to use regardless of steel.
this is an interesting perspective for me. As a woodworker I'm used to sharpening plane irons and chisels (mostly). In that arena the sharp test is the ability to shave the hairs off your arm, but the real-world test is the ability to lift a wispy-thin shaving from actual wood (much less than the thickness of a sheet of paper). In any application however, surely it is best to sharpen as soon as there is a detectable deterioration in real-world performance. That way, all the edge needs is a quick touching up, often just on the strop rather than extensive edge shaping/polishing.
It'd be interesting to see the edges under a microscope.
I wouldn't be surprised if the differences between knife edges varied as much with manufacturing as with the type of steel.
I've noticed that too. I think edge geometry and the sharpening processes you use make a bigger difference than the type of steel, assuming that it's not an absolute junk knife you're comparing to. There definitely can be some difference in steels, but it's not as big of a deal as people make it out to be.
Regardless of the steel type, I believe it's really best to always maintain your cutting edge; after every use if need be.
The type of steel it's made from isn't as important as having a sharp edge when you need it.
So, what I think is, edge retention depends on how hard the steel is. So if you harden to 60 HRC all these steels, I think in terms of rope cutting they will act the same, but under some heavy duty work the lower quality steels will brake/dull faster. Correct me if I am wrong)
OUTDOORS55, I am a subscriber to your channel and you have taught me much. As an avid knife collector and a sometimes knife maker I greatly appreciate your step by step blade, sheath and handle instructions and, yes, your sharpening instructions. If I may, don't be so apologetic about your sharpening text results. We now have access to exceptional steels to work with. However, unless some outrageous steel falls from the heavens as a gift of the gods, I believe and you have proven that good steel, is good steel, is good steel. Aside form the extra maintenance and care needed for higher carbon content versus stainless, I believe most quality steels these days will deliver similar results across the line, as you have just clearly proven. Your 1080 faux Spyderco is a prime example of this point. IMHO it really comes downs to the proper heat treatment of any givein, decent, higher end steel. So, no apologies necessary. Please keep going what you are doing and teaching those of us who wish to learn at the master's feet ...ok, videos. Again, I thank you for all you have imparted to me. I appreciate your hard work and dedication. I look forward to many more of your videos. Again, thank you.
Thanks for the comment my friend! I definitely no expert, just a hobby that gotten out of control 😂 Your right though, most quality steel will perform very well for the average user. Heat treatment has more to do with edge retention than steel type. I’ll take a quality heat treated 1080 knife over a poor quality heat treated 3v or s110v. Again thanks for the comment! I really appreciate it 👍🙂👊
I have cut thousands of feet of cardboard and a whole roll of manilla rope and came to the same conclusion you did. I don't chase super steels any more. I went through all the variables, edge angle, grit finish, diamond abrasives for super wear resistant steels (S110V) etc. In the end I stopped after comparing S110V and CTS BD1. After using them side by side on various materials, and repeating it, there wasn't enough difference to easily differentiate between them. I sold the S110V blade and carry the CTS BD1 blade daily. The highest end steel I have now is Spydercos VG10 in a Delica. I'm slowly moving back to 8Cr13MoV class steels and carbon steels like 1095, 8670, and whatever old Schrade and Case carbon steel blades are.
there are differences to be seen even with such tests...you just have to look real close!
so...yeah....i kinda agree with you. just glad I found this video and now i know i'm not the only one on this side of the "cut tests" front!
Interesting experiment...I think the difference in the steels will relate more to shock impact, flexibility etc rather than edge retension (I know that with the UK classifications, high end tool steel hardens a bit more with impacts, so makes a better steel for a knife used to chop as it's less likely to chip...but the edge will dull... as quickly when used to slice) -
a decent hardening and tempering with thought taken for those desired properties will create similar strengths and weaknesses. If an abrasive will sharpen the metal equally well, then it stands to reason the blades will dull pretty much the same
Awesome test, thanks for doing this. Now test s110v vs 420c!
Great video! Look forward to some more recent posts! You could just keep testing and keep sharpening and we would still go to them! Scenes with quick editing of using the knives in a lumberjack fashion would be hilarious! Cutting leather, sharpening a stick for no reason, gutting a fish, starting fires with flint rods and more.
Your testing is accurate. Cellulose, which is in wood, paper, cardboard, etc. has colloidal sized pieces of silica which are harder than any steel. And carpet has an alumina compound (gibsite) on its back which is probably harder than steel. I used to wonder why I had to sharpen my scout knife when I was whittling a lot, and after an article in Scientific American years ago I found out. The edge has to contact microscopic pieces of silica (think sand) naturally inside the wood. I think the same is true of leather. Now if you had a wootz Damascus steel the particles of iron carbide in the steel will be very hard and the edge retention should be better. But for standard knife steels there will not be any real difference when the edge is exposed to hard minerals whether in wood, leather, concrete, or quartz sand or rocks. Your testing only confirms this. However, I have encountered knife blades that were almost impossible to sharpen to a razor edge. If you cannot get a razor edge sharpness will always be a problem. Also glass filled plastic sheaths will dull the edge when you insert or withdraw the blade. I’m sick of having to retouch the edge on knives withdrawn from glass filled plastic sheaths. Thank you Mora and Glock for not putting glass fibers in your sheaths! The chemistry of what you cut also makes a difference. Stainless steel razor blades last longer than the old carbon steel blades (Gillette blue blades) not because of hardness but because of oxidation resistance. The microscopic edge of a knife is extremely sensitive to corrosion and even before the blade rusts the sharp edge can be compromised by oxidation. That’s why fillet knives are always stainless steel.
The only flaw I can see in your testing is that you're only using relatively soft materials. With good heat treatment even low-end steel can perform decently in such conditions, I suggest you try testing them on tougher materials like hard wood, soda cans, copper wire, etc.
Please show me one guy that cuts copper wire and soda cans with his 100$+ knife. Even if someone does, it is a rare practice of using a knife, as long as you are not MacGyver. Cutting hardwood is a good idea, but it is not practical because in my opinion these knives are not made for carving, and if you do, you would probably not choose hard wood like oak.
I don't think you know how abrasive cardboard is
@@YourAssAintSafe I recon cardboard and newspaper cause more wear to the knife, copper and aluminum are very soft compared to tempered steel, but you could roll or chip the edge if the angle is too flat.
@@Universal_Craftsman I was talking to the other guy ik lol
@@YourAssAintSafe I knew that, but I wanted to add my few cents to this.
Indeed interesting. I've got a skyline in 14C28N, a Benchmade 940 in s30v, and a native 5 in s110v, and the biggest difference in cutting is the native 5 vs the other 2. Very hard to know how much comes from the steel vs blade geometry.
My favorite, and sharpest, knife is my little esee izula in 440c. I own s30v, s30vn, 1095, rwl34, aus8, 8cr13... And that little 440c is hands down my favorite.
Interesting test! It's probably the heat treatment. If it is done well for the particular steel, it should make the steel better. The cheaper VG10 steel from a company that doesn't heat treat well probably won't perform as well as the Spyderco VG10. I think what you have shown is that properly treated, lower grade steels can perform comparably to higher grade steels. Nice. Thanks for all the effort!
Very interesting results. It is strange to see how much they conflict with other tests we’ve seen on the internet (and just for the record, I’m not doubting your credibility, I trust your results completely). Is there a chance that perhaps the blades were sharpened at a very low angle? Like 15 or less? Maybe the edges were just too thin for the test. It’s the only thing I could think of. I would suggest for the next test using a different sharpening method and see what happens. Thanks for the video! :)
Dang, this is crazy. I am just as confused but I have honestly always thought that the only difference between steel is how well they resist rust.
On a similar line of thought - I think the spyderco/byrd heat treat for 8Cr13MoV is significantly better than most other makers. I've said this on other videos but it's worth repreating. My dad picked up a byrd harrier about 2 years ago and it's become a regular piece of his EDC rotation. I do all of the maintenance & sharpening work on his knives, be it pocket knives or kitchen knives. It appears that the harrier chugs along for much longer in between touch ups compared to any other 8Cr/Aus8 foldrrs I have used. I like to compare it to how Buck gets a lot out of 420 HC with the Bos heat treat while other makers get mediocre results with 420.
Spyderco(Byrd) does their 8cr13mov heat treatment right! They do a great job with that steel!
IMMHO it seems that sharpness retention would be a result of hardness. If all of the blades are tempered the the same HRC then then they should all dull the same. I guess the next test should be a toughness comparison but who wants to do that with a $300 knife.
As a material sciencist,
Hardness is capability of localising the force. Hardness is not wear retention. With this in mind,
As hardness increase sharpening time is also increase. Also that compaund can not work with that specific steel. But you shave with all of them at start so this is not a case. You just over sharpen the less hard ones.
Back to the edge retention(wear resistance) and hardness.
Lets look what happens when material is hard.
When a material is hard, the effected dent zone is decreased under same force.
Now after some cuts, when we inspect the blade under microscope we see a edge like micro-serrated edge.
Hard material and soft material seem the same serration per unit lenght, but the harder blade's serrations radius less than softer blade. They both serrated, they both have micro serrations they both not shave anymore.
So what is hardness for?
If you increase the scale and try to cut a hard material like copper wire. Copper wire cause a dent in both hard and soft blades. But the softer ones dent radius is more than harder one. So if you cut the paper after this dent, harder one probably not effect by the dent becouse its dent is too small compared to softer one.
If you decrease the scale, hardness is not necessarily a edge retention scale. Compared to copper wire, rope and cartons have millions off little pieces(fibres, yarns) waiting to cut rather than wire that has 1 big fibre waiting for cut.
So the scale of the thing you cut has the effect on whether hardness is usefull or not.
Lets come to wear resistance.
Wear resistance directly in correlation with hardness in engineering. But mostly not for blades.
You can achieve nearly same hardness with different grain sizes. In our case grain size has more effect on wear resistance. The edge of the grains(grain boundaries) has high amount of stresses and there are hard to deform.
If grains are small, it means your millions of fibres and yarns need to have more energy to deforme millions of grain boundaries.
If grains are big, you still have millions of fibres but thousands of grain boundaries, more grains. Grains deforms easily than grain boundaries.
But how much is the effect of this? If you cut 100 meter maybe 200 meter of rope like that, you see bigger grain blade is more harshly serrated and edge is nearly gone.
So what the shit i saying for this long?
If you use your knife to remove isolation from cables, you cut the woods on the rocks in forest and sometimes hit the rocks with your blade, blade touches consistently hard things your first deciding point is hardness. Buy the harder one, that is not carbon steel. Carbon steel tend to chipping there is some hard carbon steels but when they chip, you have hard times while sharpen. Buy some good steel alloyed with elements that you didn't know their names.
If you cut boxes, papers, fruits, soft but fibred things your first deciding point is grain size.
You can not find or compare grain sizes unless you have a high magnification optic microscope. So you'll never know. Buy the price/performance one, also consider carbon steels becouse you have chippings rather than rolled edge and rolled edge is bad for you, or if you serious about it buy the powder metallurgy steels. Their grain sizes mostly not big.
And that is the winning point of this video. 1080 is 0.80C w% steel and its not bad for cutting fibres.
People always consider about hardness.
That is why some box cutting work horse blades comes with 420c or 440s.
If hardness is only case, i make all my knifes with elmax.
I recently did a similar test on cardboard between d2 and 440c and reached the same conclusion: no noticeable difference at the upper tier of sharpness (ie shaving and cutting newspaper). I noticed as i went, theres a lot of potential to add bias in tests like this ("oh this knife got dirtier, let me just strop it on my jeans real quick to clean off the glue" , or "that little hickup cuting newspaper cant be right, let le try the test again" etc). Hard to tell who's properly accounted for it unless they put up numerical data and methods for blinding or randomizing etc.
Just stumbled across this video, and honestly I'm very pleased to finally find someone without an agenda who's willing to be honest about the " real world" difference between knife steels. If you want an expensive steel, then buy it. However, to say that's it's in any way a better performer in real world scenarios than a basic carbon steel equivalent or low end stainless with a proper heat treat is just marketing. That's probably why in my experience, most of the " no questions asked" warranty companies make knives with basic steels, while the " broken tips, and cracked blade are not covered" companies sell mostly high end knives! Always found it strange that I can throw a $5 old hickory knife without much damage, but a "high end super steel" knife can't withstand a fall from the pocket😂😂😂. When these issues are stated on forums, you get dog piled by fanboys, or brushed off by manufacturers. Most of the steel snobbery is all unproven hype. Good job sir 👍
I used to use a 13" victorinox flexible gastronomic blade to cut microgreens. Freshly sharpened I was able to cut 2 flats reliably, then there would be too much resistance to cut through cleanly. A few months ago I upgraded to a 13" HSS blade for industrial fabric cutting machines by Eastman, what a difference ! Now I can cut at least 20 flats before I need to bring back a razor edge.
Great test. Thanks for spendings the time to make this! Definitely surprising.
I've been saving up for an S30v folder. Now, I'm just stick with an affordable knife. Thanks!
Me too😂
Enjoy your videos! Thank you for your honesty! You do a great job I am considering purchasing Spyderco tenacious. I like the shape of the blade but I can't see paying $150 higher grade steals quote on quote in the Spyderco family
Its a great knife. After a few sharpenings it will have better edge retention then when it was new. Ive probably sharpened mine 1000 times. Dont get me wrong, theres better steels out there, but as a whole, its a great blade. 😀
Great video! The testing seemed pretty conclusive to me. Really straight-forward. Nice work!
I have a dozen knives I use all the time. Now I only buy M390 knives if I can find them. I have a Bradford 5 that I split kindling with for three days on a camping trip and it would still easily slice through paper. My K-bar would never do that. So I do see a difference. But this is a very informative video like all of your videos are.
My Byrd knife is smiling big!
Totally agree with you I usually go with D-2 steel for my needs it holds up better.The only exception is when I’m whittling I use 1095 steel. Yes
Interesting, I would love to see the same test in other steels to see at which level steel you reach that has a discernible difference.
I've never noticed much difference in premium steels until I got some s90v, s110v, 20cv, maxamet, those are definitely noticably better on edge retention. S30v never struck me as being significantly more wear resistant.
Thanks for the information on the DIY strapping block wow what a difference
I've done similar test at home with my kitchen knives but there was a big difference between the $5 target knife
And a Japanese hap40 steel
but I was just doing food preparation on a wooden chopping board I don't know much about steel but the the cheap knife stopped shaving hair after one meal the expensive one still shave hair After a week of food preparation
What I take from this is this. Knowing how to sharpen is more important than blade materials.
Also was there a difference when sharpening each blade on the difficulty sharpening¿
I understand your frustration. I just sharpen them when dull what more can you say . happy Trails
Haha I think you have a point 😉👍
Point HAHA
Thank you for yet another amazing and insightful video, Alex! I feel like we've all been mislead by marketing somewhere along the way. Perhaps the only real difference between super steel and less adequate steels are that they're easier or harder to sharpen, taken an edge better, what have you. Not so much the edge retention. It does feel a bit strange.
I'd like to make a suggestion if it would help? I think you should find a way to buy the steels directly and then heat treat all these various steels yourself so there is absolutely no way for there to be any anomalies.
I love your videos! Always my favorite to watch when I'm home from work. Thank you, again for your phenomenal content, and if possible I'd like to know your thoughts on my suggestion.
Could it be that the Sage is fake? A Chinese copy made with 8Cr13MoV for instance. If your 1080 performs similar to 8Cr13MoV that could explain the similarity between the blades...
It’s not a fake. It came directly from spydercos website. And it’s comparable to my endura 4 in zdp-189. But so in the 8cr13mov tenacious. So maybe it’s the opposite haha. Yeah not sure what happened.. I need to retest it.
Sharpening with a more consistent method (Lansky) vs freehand sharpening (for this test) would probably yield more consistent results.
If I were me sharpening those knives, I'd totally agree with you. It's amazing, and disheartening, to see what some of these freehand sharpeners can do.
What’s the next ‘super’ steel they gonna try and convince us to buy? Nice job with this Alex!
I made knives for 35 years. I experimented with plain carbon steels and the super duper modern alloy steels. I now think that 440C is the best and most useful blades for the most amount of people. Properly heat treated it can skin 10-15 deer and still be sharp. When it is dull it can be easily sharpened. Mine could take a fair amount of flexing without snapping. Also 440C is quite rust resistant which keeps that enemy - rust - from ruining the edge.
If nothing else we should all like up this video just for the sheer amount of time he put into the testing.
i'm equally confused, and intrigued.
The bitter truth that that most knife enthusiasts are discovering at some cost and strangeness is that grometry, hardness and the quality of the HT is far more important than the steel, not mentioning that the main factor for a knife to stop cutting is a folded edge, and not abrasion.
Get any steel you want in a knife, if another one has higher hardness and optimized geometry (wich implies in less force to cut, therefore less edge degradation), the second one will outperforme the first one no matter what.
If geometry, hardness and quality of the HT are equal for some knives, unless there is a super huge gap between the steels, they will perform very similar. Maybe strange, but only 40% more abrasion resistance is nothing in the real world, it could be to a precise machine that repeat perfectly every single move, but not for us.
Amazing effort. Congratulations.
I think this is more of an acknowledgement that craftsmanship can close the gap between different grades of steels for performance in edge retention, but edge retention only. Also, Had you used different brands of CR13 knives I think there would be an entirely different result as well. Kudos to Spyderco for having great QC. I wouldn't say the same for 1095 just because most acknowledge it's a great steel, the only drawback of it being able to easily rust if not taken care of constantly. Also there is the issue of being able to have good edge retention and remain tough so the blade doesn't chip and repairing doesn't become more cumbersome. Well treated CR13 seems to have good edge retention but toughness maybe compromised at a harder HRC. For everyday average use this won't matter to most people. For specialized work that calls for more abuse on the knife, having a steel that is better overall in all 3 categories (edge retention, toughness, and rusting) is why people will spend more on the "super steel". Less overall maintenance is always a sought after trait. But it's like bells and whistles on a car, nice but not necessary.
Makes me feel a lot better about where I end up putting my money
Apex angle, blade grind/geometry, heat treat, hardness, proper temper and grit finish are the largest factors that determine wear resistance and toughness. Steel directly impacts edge strength, stability, and corrosion resistance; the amount of carbides correlate to all of those attributes, larger and more abundant carbides in a certain steel increasing wear resistance (only with a toothy finish), and edge strength, and smaller, less abundant carbides in a low carbon steel (13c27, AEB-L, etc. are some stainless varieties) increase toughness, stability and ease of sharpening. I would say that steel doesn’t play such a major role in performance, some exceptions perhaps being s110v, Maxamet and Rex 121. There are two main types of steels: simple, high carbon steels, and high alloy/tool steels, and not that much performance increases within each category. So, yeah, I’m not surprised by the outcome of the test. To dramatically increase s30v performance, try lowering apex angle to 4-6 dps, with a 100-220 grit finish.Great video, I hope you have a nice day!
The general explanation I've heard is S30V uses large carbides that are not suited to keeping a keen edge and most of the time that trade off results in similar performance to lower end steels - and due to this S30V maybe more fitting as a stainless alternative for thick high-carbon "tactical"-type knives. Of course, most people are more prone to go to something like 3V nowadays instead.
I believe it's also why the Sandvik and AEB-L steels have gotten more favorable lately is due to their finer carbide sizes.
I remember when I first got into knives, I was disappointed that the laws of physics still applied to "super steels" and they couldn't chop through a brick without damage like I had imagined.
I find the biggest differences are in hardness.... CRK S35 is really soft, so watch out if your keys are in the same pocket...Even brass keys will tear it up. 154CM is similar. MAXAMET and M4, however, will not get dinged up as bad. Actual cutting don't seem to make much difference since I'm an edge snob and I sharpen after a few days on the job site or on a trip, anyway.
You also feel a lot better if you lose a cheaper blade or it gets broken or stolen. I've always loved 01 tool steel or 1095. I like the fact that i have to maintain the edge and keep em oiled up. Just gives me another reason/excuse to sit down and tinker with my blades.
you made a point. Usually happens when you test empirically what marketing says.
Great video, eye opening results!
Nicely done. I don't think you should second guess your result. This was a pretty solid test. Of course there are unanswered questions like would it have gone better if you had taken the trouble to first sacrifice a chicken to the Steel Gods?
This demo showed the knife being sharpened and used in a very typical way. If the difference is not apparent in these everyday jobs then what benefit is the fancy steel to the average user? How much trouble does he have to take to get the advantages he paid for?
Thank you, for me you right. Félicitation pour ce test.