You have to load the motor to get to 50A... it won't get there out of the water, no-load... you didn't measure the current, we note. For leaks like that I've decided that pulling a vacuum on the inside and drizzling thin epoxy around the leaks is a viable path. You can put tape or silicone cofferdams to keep the (watery hopefully) epoxy in place while it's migrating. Digging any further into Alan's construction risks having to split the halves. There's a liquid RV roof sealant that uses this method, not sure if it's watery enough. You might pull a vacuum on just pieces where the water ingress is happening... might be better than trying to seal Alan's entire hull for air leaks. Good luck.
When you were running the motor with the propellor in air rather than water you might have been at 100% speed but since air is several times less dense than water the motor was nowhere near 100% power.
I get that there is value in experimenting, especially when at least part of the objective is to create content but trying to re-purpose something that's clearly aimed at the recreational market (eFoil, electric surfboard/paddleboard) and turn it into something more useful is only going to end one way. Surely an electric trolling motor from someone like Minn Kota is more suitable for the inflatable dinghy. I don't think either will work as a bow thruster for Alan though, my bet is that pushing Alan sideways at just above zero speed, the pitch of the prop on the thruster will be massively too high (considering it was designed to push something a good few magnitudes of order smaller and lighter) overloading the motor well before it gets anywhere near max revs and the whole thing burns out sharpish or the circuit breaker trips repeatedly. At least you won't see the smoke come out since it will be underwater (have a look online at the pitch of the props on electric trolling motors compared to the thruster). Also be mindful of how many power systems you are installing on Alan. I've lost track of all the batteries, charging methods and DC-DC converters @AlexHibbertOriginals
Not even possible, just "correct". Energy needs to be conserved. If you're not taking out the max energy from the motor you're not putting it in either. And also there is a feedback loop involved - it will try to maintain the rpm by applying whatever power needed for that. Just coasting only requires to overcome the friction of the bearings. Stalling the motor is the highest load condition.
Years ago we had to jumpstart an old forklift at my job. I had a set of jumper-cables in my own car that came with a very cheap emergency kit I had picked up. We hooked them up to the boss' diesel pickup and then to the old forklift. In ten seconds I watched the insulation melt off my cheap (thin) cables.
Gave him a wave from the Queensferry crossing again 😂 I used to live in Shetland until a couple of years ago. Kayaked and sailed a bit up there too , some nice tidal races to avoid around Orkney and Shetland. Now near Arbroath/Montrose so would pop down to say 'Hi' if you'll be popping in around there next year.
Yes, that Guage of wire getting warm without the prop in water will only get hotter from the resistance in the water and yes even though the cold water will keep the wire cool, it will only disapate the heat somewhere where the wire is not cooled. After a few cycles of running for a length of time the heat will weaken the wire strands or blow out a solder joint prob in the micro controller aboard...... ALAN!!! ❤😊🎉👍😎
I'd rewire it with 8 gauge stranded because some of it will be in the water and if it catches anywhere it is less likely to break internally. For the rail leak use Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure. Then use a marine grade silicone on the bumper to adhere it better to the hull
For the damper. Maybe take a look at compressed air "muscles". A silicone tube bladder filled of slightly compressed air (or even plain silicon rod), in a regular nylon braided sheathe. The damper can be made as long as needed to allow for the right amount of stretch. That would look very sleek.
Given how the the rest of the unit is - lets call it radio control - spec with the JR connector and standard pwm control as well as the XT60 connector, I'm not surprised it's using only 16 AWG wire. It's quite common to push much more current through those wires than what they're rated for in the RC hobby as most hobby grade ESCs come with much smaller wires than what the ESC is rated for. It's generally fine from my experience, I haven't had any problems with heating even at much higher constant currents, and I wouldn't expect it to be too bad in this case either. However, I'd be more concerned with the durability of the wire and it's insulation in this environment, so that alone would justify a much thicker wire. This unit is likely meant for DIY electric surfboards or trolling motors and the likes, getting used for a week or two every year before it's forgotten or thrown away after less than a decade, so I wouldn't expect it to last too long in general. Unfortunately I don't have any better suggestions for you - boats aren't my forte.
I just noticed the dry barnacles. The barnacles below the waterline will create a lot of drag. Don't waste a lot time trying to sand them off! You can clean them with muriatic acid (pool acid) mixed with water ( 1 part acid to 3 parts water) inside a spray bottle. Spray it on and watch them melt away, rinse immediately with clean water. Just be careful with the fumes especially if the ground underneath Allen is concrete or full of barnacles as well. You can cover the ground with a tarp to cut down on the fumes and rinse it off as well with clean water.
I am using the exact same batteries to power a 24v 800w electric outboard motor. They work well and seem to have the advertised capacity. One word of caution though if you discharge them to shutdown they may not come back on with a 24v charger. I had to use a 12v charger on each separately to get them back on.
Hi Alex. I'm not an expert on wiring, but what I do know is that you need to "load" a motor to test it. It won't get to 50A until it's under load in the water. However 16AWG is pretty dismal for a 50A rating. I would be going for 10-8AWG, but if you can test in a bucket then run it at high power and test some different guages.
I agree the Chinese manufacturer is using too small a wire gauge. I have many 16 gauge extensions, used for up to 15 amp for A.C. power tools. I would not trust these at 20amp for extended periods of use. A UK UA-camr John Ward has many videos on electrical items. Some are where he operates dodgy equipment often with wires of too small a gauge. Often these fail by the wire burning up. Sometimes the wire is copper coated steel so higher resistance and heats up faster. The last thing you want is a piece of equipment failing when you are on the water. I think 10 gauge is more relevant for 50amp if you have the space in the gland.
A bow thruster is run in short bursts. My wheelchair is 24v and pulls that same amperage all day long and my start loads are considerably higher than what you will encounter. All of my wires are the same gauge as yours. Remember as your voltage goes up your resistance drops over the same cable distance. So the voltage drop for 2 meters @12v is going to be half at 24v. Bow thrusters are usually run from momentary contact switches not run continuously like a trolling motor. But if wondering have a look at the recommended wire gauge for 50 amp Anderson pugs at 24V.
I can't give advice with the technical issues in this case, only what I learned concerning breaches: have wooden stakes and fabric on hand: if you have hole wrap the stake in fabric and hammer it in also get a dead-men-buoy on the outside tht will disattach at a certain depth and send out a distress signal there also rescue "islands" that can automatically detach and inflate themselve if they reach a certain depth and maybe get a survival suit as the survival (if you fall into the water) is one-digit minutes (thumb rule for us was 1°C (over zero) equaled one minute
PS: get some emergency flares and a emergency radar transponder you might lnot egally allowed to use the first one but in an emergency you can use it (ianal) for the second it detects any radar (if acticativaed) signals it receives sends out 12 pulses signalling distress and giving any vessel the distress signal, distance and direction
A solution I have used in the broadcast TV industry might suit you for your fender problem. We need to waterproof bolts on aerial systems so they can be undone many years later. We simply coat the bolts/crews in Vaseline. It gets mucky but the bolts don't rust and can be undone with ease (Steel, Aluminimum and Stainless Steel). Vaseline will soften in hard sunlight but it will stay as a thin coat. It won't attack the fibreglass. I think it will work well below -20 deg', and more, it has for us. It has fantastic water repellent abilities even when exposed to extremely heavy and continues rain for many years. I have never tested it under sea water, that you would have to do but I think it would be fine. Even though Vaseline does not set it will repel water and seal screws. I think it would be fine under direct wave action. I say this as the wind and rain up our aerial masts is well above 100mph. The screws you can get out dip the screw in Vaseline then refit. Those you can't get to use a small artist paint brush and liberally coat as best you can. To test, coat a nut and bolt in Vaseline then leave submerged in salt water and see how you go. Use Vaseline, not a cheap alternative. Vaseline tends to be more viscous and is ideal but will not set no matter what.
Hi Alex Re electric motors The voltage drop is about 3 volt on the current setup, that gives you just over 1000 watts. Whats needed is 6 AWG to give you maximum power with only a .25 voltage drop. Cost about £1.50 a foot for good quality stuff. Wish you well sir.
Will be interesting to see how the silicon holds up in cold temps. My bet is on it hardening and loosing the majority of it's dampening ability at a minimum.
The issue is that the premium elastic shock cords tend to stiffen and fail. If there's a rubber that will maintain some 'give' in the cold, it's this. I think a load more holes will really help.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Have you considered a hydraulic dampener? Something along the lines of a mountain bike center shock. Then you could adjust dampening by the built in ability (valves) and by a change of oil type, which would double in helping deal with different severity of sub-zero temps.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals haha probably because of my explanation. If you have a mountain biker friend or shop nearby it's worth asking them; much much simpler than it seems.
*losing the majority. Silicone should be good for extreme cold and heat. I am buying 12v wire at the moment from the same place as Alex (I think) and its silicone coated instead of PVC, good for 200ºc.
The wire is definitely undersized according to good engineering principles, but probably not dangerously so in this case. It will be used intermittently for short periods of time, outdoors, half underwater, and not coiled in an enclosed place. Probably fit for purpose for a bow thruster but nothing more. They look like surplus or grey market ROV motors to me.
The core motors appear to be those generic IP68 pods very commonly available on component websites across the world, then the various companies do their own ESC, prop, mount and wiring to complete the unit.
Be careful separating the top and bottom. Small leaks are a part of boating. If you separate them, make sure you are prepared to reattach them properly.
For motors etc using the Chinese rating system probably the continuous rating would be perhaps 1/3rd that quoted which would explain the undersized wiring.
Because you are using budget LFP batteries I highly recommend keeping an eye on voltage drift over term. If they start drifting too much then an added balancer like the one from Victron would be needed.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Within the batteries would be a quality issue and call on warranty; very difficult to look at cell voltages with those sealed units. My comment is about between (betwix in British so far as my neighbor says) and is a concern when using 2X 12V units to create 24V as an example. With lower cost batteries one will likely drift in capacity over time more than the other, and eventually cause further drifting and a faster death. Easily monitored by one every ~6 months or at the same time as a motor service interval (running hours). Just disconnect the batteries from each other, let them sit for a day or two, and check the voltage down to the 100ths place. Load testing can also be done....a bit overkill though. A battery balancer basically nurses any drift between the battery units to avoid over/under charging.
Maybe use silicone spray grease injected along the inside seam? It’s renewable, effective and rust controlling. Been sealing my boat windows for some years while avoiding the inevitable.. I would certainly leave that rubbing strake severely alone!
if the interior can seal air tight, you could remove the inner seal of the boat seam, run a nice new seal around the rub rail and close it all watertight, and then run a serious dehumidifier for a few weeks. That should encourage all that trapped moisture to come out of the joint section. Regarding Chinese motors generally, I expect that you will find almost exactly the same design of motor from other factories, possible subtle differences in cable used or colours, but the specs will vary wildly as will the prices, but nothing internal will be actually different. Eg you may find one with double the rating and a higher price, only to test it and find it is exactly the same, and can't meet the actual rating provided by the manufacturer. Just a caution from previous mistakes I've made.
The rub rail on my boat started leaking through the hull just like yours when the rubber started to dry out and shrink. I ended up taking the rub rail off completely(with a oscillating multi tool, drill, screw driver, hammer a chisel and a lot of swearing) and then filling in all the bolt holes. Are the top and bottom bolted together or are the halves bonded together those bolts going through the seam?
Former industrial electrician here and I think I know what is going on; Is the 50 amps inrush current or constant current? A motor has inrush current, which is only there until the motor starts rotating at full speed. I would assume that the motor only pulls 12 amps when actually running. Based on the size of that motor, I would guess it is about a 1/3 horse motor, so 12 amps at 24 volts comes to 288 Watts at about 88% efficiency puts out 1/3 horse at the prop, so if that is what they said they were selling you, that should be right. Yeah, the wire is probably fine, mate, but since you are going further, put one size larger, so 10 gauge AWG.
I don't want to counter someone who clearly knows their stuff, but the manufacturer UA-cam channel shows the wattage at roughly their ratings when running, not just peak at startup.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Ok, (watches video) so it is not the inrush current then, which was the one question I had. The current rating for wire gauges is for use without getting an electrical engineer involved in doing calculations. You also can get away with thinner wire if the cable is rated for higher temperature or had better cooling, but they are over relying on water cooling in their design. It is ok for it to get warm, but not above the rating of the cable or to increase resistance (40 degrees Celsius is a good operating number for cable to top out at). The other question is how much are you going to run it. If it is more than an hour straight, you need a beefier cable. Your plan to go thicker to the size you mentioned in your vireo should work perfect and deal with the thin wire they used if the section that is thin is actually underwater as you are taking Alan in Arctic operations.
Cheers - yep, trying to be discerning, without necessarily throwing what appears to be an otherwise very robust-feeling unit on the scrap heap. The re-wire is a must.
If you use 8 AWG then it can handle around 85 amp continuous & the diameter of the wire should be around 3.5mm. Basic rule of thumb is if you use double the amp rating that you really need then you won't have issues & it also allows for future upgrades that draw more power.
The Motor Windigs itsself and here perticular probably more the build in motor control circuit traces and the type and amount ot FET Transistors is what limits your possible max current. (plus little bit bargin from the watre and in arctic waters even more the cold water) Stepping up the wires to a diameter who is more as the rating of that thing is isnt nessesary. Most of these are generous with its power ratings (if not to say lying) and give you leway from this point. Also you probably never stall it and run it for long duration on full load need. So there is also room there. I would think AWG 12 ist enough, even the step up to 10 isnt needet exept you want to midigate the voltage drop and be on the save side. But 8 AWG would be just not make any sense ynd you start to get into problems with having physical space in the inlet openings.
@@Dave78214 question is how mutch you loose and how often you use them. he was more concerned about the real poweroutput the pod can reach to not cap them there to mutch and burning the wires when used. but he uses them only for bowthrusters or maneuveringthrusters for docking and something. thats only minutes or even seconds only. you cant even waste enough energy with the cables to make a different since the motor itsself drains the small batteries quickly. In a long running verry efficient optimised setup for a autonomous drone ship for example you would think about.
@@Total_Egal well yeah, there are multiple angles to look into, others had not seemed to mention the power loss and it's sort of accounted for in the choice of correct guage and the voltage loss point - the wire doesn't seem to be the correct gauge, and 5 or 6 might be appropriate if the motor really can handle that much continuous power - perhaps it is useful for intermittent power bursts, like you say as a bow thruster
if you drop 2V over 1.6m that's 100W wasted at 50A current, and then as the temperature increases, the resistance also increases - 60W lightbulbs can start fires. I think the cooling from the water on the submerged part of the wire might be sufficient in factory tests.
Would duty cycle be something to think about? On a bow thruster you are unlikely to run it full tilt for more than a minute or so. Probably best to use this one for the thruster and the newer ones with larger gauge wire all the way for the tender.
Don’t remove the rub rail. Just seal it to Alan with black marine caulk. Fill the gap from the top, bottom and the screw holes. This will keep both sea water and rain water from coming in. I fear this would be a very much larger project then need be. Whats that saying about perfect and good enough? Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. If the thruster is going to be mounted permanently below the water then I’d make sure to do a leak test. Way it before and after sitting in your fresh water bin over night. I’d go with 10 gauge wire for 50 amps continuous.
I like your jury rig silicone shock reducer. . .just wanted to say (and I’m sure you know this) but there are companies in the US that make these in many different sizes for different shock needs. I used them on a snubber on my 34 ft. Sadler (British) and it never failed and did reduce shock. Your method might be cheaper although I’m not really sure. . .Thanks.
For 50amps, you really want to go to 8awg at bare minimum. It's best to oversize your cable rather than hope you can get away with a short length of thiner guage wire.
Do you have any idea what the cable sheath is? If it is something like silicone it can run far hotter. The risk you have is that the inner insulation melts and causes a short circuit if it is not a thermosetting cable. Saying that for the short durations it is being run for, I would not be too worried, especially if you are using a speed controller and it is not constantly running at 100%. The place to be a little carful is where you bring the cable through a bulkhead, that is where you will get heat buildup. If you want to test the actualy current it is pulling, I have a clamp meter you can use, I also work with a couple of companies that do subsea cable jointing, conectors and penetrators that I can put you in contact with.
It's not silicone - probably pvc or polyolefin. But in any case, thin wire is inefficient even if you can actively pull away the wasteful heat to reduce the safety issue.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals it is definitely not right, they should have put thicker cable on. In terms of losses, it is about 60w per meter of cable. I would be tempted to try and shorten the cable as much as possible, or open it up and try to replace the cable completely
Had to take the deck off a Pearson Ensign once and the rubber gunnel, like yours I suspect, has a “barb” like construction that allowed for easy snapping in (also screwed in), but even after heating and tugging we could not get it out, so we had to destroy it and install a new one. . .Sorry, that’s all I know!
Regards the wiring for the thruster, another concern is the wiring may be (probably is) aluminium coated with copper instead of the real thing. For many applications aluminium wiring, while not being ideal, is not a huge deal breaker but for you, it would be far more serious.
I thought the ‘good stuff’ was tinned and not straight copper for marine purposes. Most low voltage wire from China is silicone coated and tinned (allegedly) finely stranded wire in my recent foray into researching and then purchasing some.
Hi Alex Help please if you would I’ve purchased a 48v unit from one of the alternative suppliers and the pwm from Apisqueen My motor unit is missing the centre wire from the 3 pin plug for the pwm Could you tell me where it leads from I’m suspecting possibly a 5v supply to the pwm Many thanks in advance to anyone that can help
I'm afraid I'm not sure of the exact problem - hard to visualise. You can email ApisQueen though and ask - they do reply in a manner of speaking... They sent me an incorrect lead, and had to replace it.
For that amount of money you could buy a very good outboard electric motor, which could very easily be repurposed if it doesn’t work out as a bow motor, and has proven reliability. The ducted motor looks kewl, but judging by the company reps claims regarding the wiring I wouldn’t trust the performance figures they quote on their website. Would be interesting to see how the ducted motor performs in a test compared to an unducted electric outboard motor. Depending on Alan’s loaded tonnage, there might not be a big difference.
I don't think having lots of outboards would work in the module I have in mind for emergency power, or fixed on the bow as a thruster. I'd also struggle to combine them all under a remote control system without having one custom made and voiding the warranties of the outboards.
My experience in using "heavy duty" jumper cables to test a 1,000 watt motor was. Hmm, what is that burning smell, hmmm why is there melted pvc on my floor.
Did you actually test the current levels? You are 100% right that wire will not be able to handle the 50 amps, but I highly doubt that the motor will pull that much amps as it is not 1200 watts... I think you got scammed on the motor. Don't they make a sprayseal type of stuff that is pretty good at sealing leaks along fittings like you have?
I did not - my claw-style current meter is playing up. The manufacturer UA-cam channel shows the wattage at roughly their ratings when running. I'm unhappy with the manufacturer on a couple of levels, but I don't think the rated numbers were a 'scam' by a factor of, for example, 2 or more.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals The only way to know for sure is to measure the running amps going to the motor. If it is less than 50 amps then the wattage is not 1200. Of course you would need to test the voltage as well and multiply that by the amps, whatever that would be. It is common for china motor to not be anywhere near what they say they are unless it is an expensive motor. I have seen motors advertised at 1200 watts and they actually put out about 500-800 watts maxed out. Sorry you have this issue with that manufacturer.. Did the spray seal idea help?
Chinese cheaper units, are mostly reduced in quality by poor soldering and quick n easy straight forward solutions. At best, at the absolute minimal regarding wires quality and wire shielding. I always replace all of them, and go over the soldering where I can. It has to be correct, since any point where you lengthen a cable, or connect it, will be even weaker than the cable itself. So you don't want the cable to be the pitfall. Luckilly a 24v-system often need fewer amps than a 12v-sytsem.
Alex, I think you are right to have concerns about the overall quality of Chinese supplied equipment. While they are more than capable of producing high quality goods, there is a murky (almost fraudulent) peripheral environment which produces crap and they outright lie about specifications and capabilities. Just a few observations: 1. You have not conducted a full load test, and that is important if you are examining the cable temperatures (heating effect = current squared x resistance). 2. As far as bow thruster duties for Alan is concerned, you might get away with it, as this is not continuous use, as it generally used for short periods of time and in bursts. 3. The more arduous application is the tender , where you are much more likely (in comparison) to be using at or near full load for significant period of time. If you are interested in some of the issues with Chinese supplied equipment (electrical) I will edit this post with a link to an excellent video which gives a real world example. ua-cam.com/video/DInwut0DzTQ/v-deo.htmlsi=U3NjRkEP3GMz0oW4. It’s a long video (40 mins) but well worth watching - the chap knows his stuff.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals It's genuine lol, I'm in the US so shipping might actually bite us in the ass, didn't think about that. They're like $500-700 each but I was selling for $300, however for you I'd do $200 each but I'm not sure what shipping would be. If you're interested Ill look into it. They're rated for air shipping too. Basically I work on radio towers and we installed them for a 911 system and only a few months later they were replaced with a diesel generator and were never used. So they've just been sitting in a battery tender cabinet. They are beasts.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals I crunched some numbers and just as an example to get all 12 from here to say London the cheapest option I found was about $1,000 on the nose. I know you need ballast though ;p wink wink and they're about 61 kilos each. So if you got all 12 you're looking at about 3,400 but I'd give you 2 free and make it a round $3,000. Food for thought. Otherwise I'll just end up selling locally. I actually have 16 of them but want to keep a few for my own little projects.
As others wrote your test gives you no valuable results of cable temps. The way you test in air shows a bit of air pushing plus motor losses. Also testing in a circulating box does not gives the true " water pushing load". If you want to now the truth... run it in the sea. And use a ampere clamp meter to see the real current. For the waterproof gland I highly advice you to use "Blue Globe" once. Plus pure-type cabling... Why do I advice? Because I did some diving lamps and diving scooter. I real condition the power is bigger ( broke my motor wheel 😅) You will be to fare away to defect them fail.. Love your project and All the best.
You will probably find that the Motor isn’t even a 50 W motor hence why you have small gauge wire, the Chinese due this quote regularly and exaggerate outputs, especially on batteries and motors
Oh they joys of having to source pretty much everything from china! Even if they manage to use the correct guage theres no guarantee itll be copper. They love a bit of copper coated aluminium out there......
Once again I am here to mention the Lynch/AGNI motor for propulsion, here is some more information: The Lynch motor is an unconventional design with a disc armature. It marries the advantages of a conventional, wound armature motor with the benefits of a flat (printed circuit) motor. It is similar to a pancake motor, but is more powerful than any of these technologies. The disc armature has magnets on both sides, doubling the available flux density and shortening the magnetic path. It therefore packs more power per pound and per cubic inch than any other motor technology. Of course such a revolutionary motor is not for every application - it is not as cheap as wound field motors, but for many applications it is a far superior motor. It has a previously unheard of power to weight ratio and also power to volume ratio. It is also highly efficient because of the double magnet design and associated short magnetic path. It also includes integral fan cooling. The Lynch motor is an important development which spurred other motor designers to improve their products to remain competitive, such as synchronus permanent magnet machines. As a result of the competition between manufacturers the cost of high performance motors and controllers has fallen dramatically. We hope the cost of solar cells also reduces to allow renewable transportation to develop as a viable alternative to carbon fuels. Cedric Lynch built his electric bike around a mid-drive configuration, also building one of the worlds most efficient light weight electric motors to power his rig reliably at 60-MPH for significant distances. He would later set several world records with his axial flux motor and bring it to market as the Lynch / Agni motor. Briggs and Stratton would eventually buy this technology which would lead to the Etek motor, which is now famous for making high speed efficient electric hot rods. Cedric uses to achieve high speeds is by following the rules of aerodynamics, and building a bike that is as aerodynamic and as efficient as possible. The other builders on this list bypassed this step, and Cedric uses this bicycle as daily transportation on real commutes. Although this high-efficiency motor uses “old school” brushes, this fact allows builders to use very affordable controllers. He has proven his design choices through thousands of miles of commuting, and the Lynch motor is highly respected. Cedric Lynch is known as the creator of the Agni Motor, a highly efficient electric motor that weighs around 25 pounds and can put out as much as 50hp. Cedric Lynch is a British 'mad scientist' type mechanical engineer obsessed with the idea of greener transportation. His interest has been in building a super efficient yet powerful vehicle that can serve as a car replacement. He started thinking of his own design for an electric motor in 1983 when he began entering competitions organized by the Battery Vehicle Society regarding building an efficient electric vehicle. At the time there was no reasonably priced DC motor with descent efficiency so Lynch decided to build his own utilizing modifying existing motors with old tin cans that he would spread out flat to use as cooling fins. Surprisingly using rudimentary materials and a garage work bench, Cedric was making better more efficient electric motors than any of the universities were able to manufacture in state of the art workshops. Cedric then came up with a motor design that could be cheaply manufactured and began manufacturing his own motor that he could sell to the public in 1988 and the Lynch Electric Motor Company was born, known as LEMCO. Cedric first used his motor to create a small boat called “The Spark” that would set an electric boat efficiency record. From there Cedric turned his attention to bicycles, an application generally considered too small for a lynch motor at that time. Cedric mounted his motor in recumbent bike, allowing him space to eventually use a set of thundersky lithium batteries. The resulting aerodynamic recumbent bike had a top speed of 60mph and still managed an incredible range of 150 miles. Cedric rode his recumbent creation everywhere as a daily commuter, putting an amazing 50,000 miles on the machine - technically a motorbike. Briggs and Stratton, the US firm famous for lawn mower engines, bought the technology and used it in their E-Tech Motor, and Cedric went on to manufacture his latest incarnation of his lynch design into the Agni motor, which is used in go karts, sailboats, motor boats, and even small airplanes. The Lynch designed motors all have the same traits. Brushed motors, around 25 pounds in weight and they are able to put out enormous power compared to their weight. Sometimes as high as 50 hp (depending on amperage ran through the motor) at an incredible 98% efficiency. Lynch Motors are also the most often used motors in electric motorcycle racing applications. Cedric's zero-emission motorcycle, which has a top speed of 120mph, was shown in action winning the world’s first zero carbon race - the TTxGP in the Isle of Mann. The idea for the electric motor has been snapped up by the 56-year-old’’s friend Arvind Rabadia, who together with his brother Hasmuk Rabadia had been thinking of starting a business in India. They have now set up Agni Motors to make further-improved versions of Cedric’s motors Despite Cedric’s breakthrough invention he has no formal engineering qualifications and taught himself the techniques needed to construct his engine. He first became interested in electrics when his parents bought him a book entitled How to build things from things found at home. The Etek motor is a brushed 25-pound pancake shaped motor that puts out enormous power for its weight. Depending on amperage and voltage the Etek can easily provide between 15-horsepower and 30-horsepower reliably and consistently (11-kW / 22-kW). A perfect platform for a powerful electric bike if you do not mind the weight. Although brushless motors are considered more modern, a brushed motor like the Etek allows the builder to use very affordable controllers. Cedric-Lynch invented the motor and sold it to Briggs and Stratton which US company produced the Etek at a lower price (around $600). In the late 90’s early 2000’s it was the way to go for a high-power / light-weight electric vehicle. Many small E-vehicle records were set using the Etek motor. Finally, the market had a relatively lightweight and powerful electric motor available to the masses. In essence, the Etek allowed hot rodders to build electric bikes. Before the Etek very few people had ever achieved 50mph on an electric bike. Even today, Etek motors (and newer incarnations of the Etek motor) are used to make some super fast electric bikes. In the case of Liveforphysics, the fastest E-bikes ever.
it always amuses me when these youtubers get so shocked when they buy cheap crap from china and the spec's are all A lie . figure its about 1/3 of advertised so those wires are about right.
There aren't 'western' ones. Only large electric outboards, and most of them are made in..... China. The thrust for this U22 is substantial, and I can't believe I'm defending them, but the company posts videos of them thrust testing the units.
dumbness in this episode - wasting time with chinese motors when european manufacturers make the best electric thrusters on the planet, needing bow thrusters when prop walk will do the job, using 12v packs when 24v packs exist, using packs with no active thermal management in an arctic expedition vessel. also if the rub rail is leaking - use a jigsaw, cut out the bad and replace with new rub rail. there are no shortcuts on boats. oh and if you want an actual marine thruster i use an aquamot 2.2 on my yacht with dakota dl+ 24v 135Ah with active thermal management.
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Boats summed up perfectly, in a single sentence - "this is not as easy as I thought it was going to be". (also why we love them so much)
I hate when companies ignore real important concerns about their product posed by their paying customers.
Great episode as always
Cheers
You have to load the motor to get to 50A... it won't get there out of the water, no-load... you didn't measure the current, we note. For leaks like that I've decided that pulling a vacuum on the inside and drizzling thin epoxy around the leaks is a viable path. You can put tape or silicone cofferdams to keep the (watery hopefully) epoxy in place while it's migrating. Digging any further into Alan's construction risks having to split the halves. There's a liquid RV roof sealant that uses this method, not sure if it's watery enough. You might pull a vacuum on just pieces where the water ingress is happening... might be better than trying to seal Alan's entire hull for air leaks. Good luck.
I agree on the first part of your logic for the fender strips leaks. Cheers
When you were running the motor with the propellor in air rather than water you might have been at 100% speed but since air is several times less dense than water the motor was nowhere near 100% power.
Quite possible. The wire was only warm, not worryingly hot, in this test.
@@AlexHibbertOriginalsyes the load is significantly higher in water. I suggest rewiring.
I get that there is value in experimenting, especially when at least part of the objective is to create content but trying to re-purpose something that's clearly aimed at the recreational market (eFoil, electric surfboard/paddleboard) and turn it into something more useful is only going to end one way. Surely an electric trolling motor from someone like Minn Kota is more suitable for the inflatable dinghy. I don't think either will work as a bow thruster for Alan though, my bet is that pushing Alan sideways at just above zero speed, the pitch of the prop on the thruster will be massively too high (considering it was designed to push something a good few magnitudes of order smaller and lighter) overloading the motor well before it gets anywhere near max revs and the whole thing burns out sharpish or the circuit breaker trips repeatedly. At least you won't see the smoke come out since it will be underwater (have a look online at the pitch of the props on electric trolling motors compared to the thruster). Also be mindful of how many power systems you are installing on Alan. I've lost track of all the batteries, charging methods and DC-DC converters @AlexHibbertOriginals
Not even possible, just "correct". Energy needs to be conserved. If you're not taking out the max energy from the motor you're not putting it in either. And also there is a feedback loop involved - it will try to maintain the rpm by applying whatever power needed for that. Just coasting only requires to overcome the friction of the bearings. Stalling the motor is the highest load condition.
Years ago we had to jumpstart an old forklift at my job. I had a set of jumper-cables in my own car that came with a very cheap emergency kit I had picked up. We hooked them up to the boss' diesel pickup and then to the old forklift. In ten seconds I watched the insulation melt off my cheap (thin) cables.
Gave him a wave from the Queensferry crossing again 😂 I used to live in Shetland until a couple of years ago. Kayaked and sailed a bit up there too , some nice tidal races to avoid around Orkney and Shetland. Now near Arbroath/Montrose so would pop down to say 'Hi' if you'll be popping in around there next year.
Cheers! Definitely going via Arbroath.
Yes, that Guage of wire getting warm without the prop in water will only get hotter from the resistance in the water and yes even though the cold water will keep the wire cool, it will only disapate the heat somewhere where the wire is not cooled.
After a few cycles of running for a length of time the heat will weaken the wire strands or blow out a solder joint prob in the micro controller aboard......
ALAN!!! ❤😊🎉👍😎
Thank you Alex and apologies for my late response
Asking around it appears that the missing wire is the power supply to the controller
I'd rewire it with 8 gauge stranded because some of it will be in the water and if it catches anywhere it is less likely to break internally. For the rail leak use Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure. Then use a marine grade silicone on the bumper to adhere it better to the hull
That very thin sealant looks good, thanks. Probably not viable for this job as it's a vertical surface, but for other things, great. Cheers.
For the damper. Maybe take a look at compressed air "muscles". A silicone tube bladder filled of slightly compressed air (or even plain silicon rod), in a regular nylon braided sheathe.
The damper can be made as long as needed to allow for the right amount of stretch.
That would look very sleek.
Given how the the rest of the unit is - lets call it radio control - spec with the JR connector and standard pwm control as well as the XT60 connector, I'm not surprised it's using only 16 AWG wire. It's quite common to push much more current through those wires than what they're rated for in the RC hobby as most hobby grade ESCs come with much smaller wires than what the ESC is rated for. It's generally fine from my experience, I haven't had any problems with heating even at much higher constant currents, and I wouldn't expect it to be too bad in this case either. However, I'd be more concerned with the durability of the wire and it's insulation in this environment, so that alone would justify a much thicker wire. This unit is likely meant for DIY electric surfboards or trolling motors and the likes, getting used for a week or two every year before it's forgotten or thrown away after less than a decade, so I wouldn't expect it to last too long in general. Unfortunately I don't have any better suggestions for you - boats aren't my forte.
A re-wire for sure. And plenty of units for redundancy.
I just noticed the dry barnacles. The barnacles below the waterline will create a lot of drag. Don't waste a lot time trying to sand them off! You can clean them with muriatic acid (pool acid) mixed with water ( 1 part acid to 3 parts water) inside a spray bottle. Spray it on and watch them melt away, rinse immediately with clean water. Just be careful with the fumes especially if the ground underneath Allen is concrete or full of barnacles as well. You can cover the ground with a tarp to cut down on the fumes and rinse it off as well with clean water.
Good advice. Although, I'm going to do another paint/antifoul coat, so will need to lightly sand back anyhow.
I am using the exact same batteries to power a 24v 800w electric outboard motor. They work well and seem to have the advertised capacity. One word of caution though if you discharge them to shutdown they may not come back on with a 24v charger. I had to use a 12v charger on each separately to get them back on.
Thanks. I'll charge at 12V anyhow. And will use a battery guard to avoid low voltage.
Hi Alex. I'm not an expert on wiring, but what I do know is that you need to "load" a motor to test it. It won't get to 50A until it's under load in the water.
However 16AWG is pretty dismal for a 50A rating. I would be going for 10-8AWG, but if you can test in a bucket then run it at high power and test some different guages.
Yes, an in-water test is key. Will make a pontoon mount.
I agree the Chinese manufacturer is using too small a wire gauge. I have many 16 gauge extensions, used for up to 15 amp for A.C. power tools. I would not trust these at 20amp for extended periods of use. A UK UA-camr John Ward has many videos on electrical items. Some are where he operates dodgy equipment often with wires of too small a gauge. Often these fail by the wire burning up. Sometimes the wire is copper coated steel so higher resistance and heats up faster.
The last thing you want is a piece of equipment failing when you are on the water.
I think 10 gauge is more relevant for 50amp if you have the space in the gland.
A bow thruster is run in short bursts. My wheelchair is 24v and pulls that same amperage all day long and my start loads are considerably higher than what you will encounter. All of my wires are the same gauge as yours. Remember as your voltage goes up your resistance drops over the same cable distance. So the voltage drop for 2 meters @12v is going to be half at 24v. Bow thrusters are usually run from momentary contact switches not run continuously like a trolling motor. But if wondering have a look at the recommended wire gauge for 50 amp Anderson pugs at 24V.
Cheers. This is to power the dinghy too though.
I can't give advice with the technical issues in this case, only what I learned concerning breaches:
have wooden stakes and fabric on hand: if you have hole wrap the stake in fabric and hammer it in
also get a dead-men-buoy on the outside tht will disattach at a certain depth and send out a distress signal
there also rescue "islands" that can automatically detach and inflate themselve if they reach a certain depth
and maybe get a survival suit as the survival (if you fall into the water) is one-digit minutes (thumb rule for us was 1°C (over zero) equaled one minute
PS: get some emergency flares and a emergency radar transponder
you might lnot egally allowed to use the first one but in an emergency you can use it (ianal)
for the second it detects any radar (if acticativaed) signals it receives sends out 12 pulses signalling distress and giving any vessel the distress signal, distance and direction
Fabric for bungs/stakes is wise. Thanks.
Warm socks too no doubt !
A solution I have used in the broadcast TV industry might suit you for your fender problem. We need to waterproof bolts on aerial systems so they can be undone many years later. We simply coat the bolts/crews in Vaseline. It gets mucky but the bolts don't rust and can be undone with ease (Steel, Aluminimum and Stainless Steel). Vaseline will soften in hard sunlight but it will stay as a thin coat. It won't attack the fibreglass. I think it will work well below -20 deg', and more, it has for us. It has fantastic water repellent abilities even when exposed to extremely heavy and continues rain for many years. I have never tested it under sea water, that you would have to do but I think it would be fine. Even though Vaseline does not set it will repel water and seal screws. I think it would be fine under direct wave action. I say this as the wind and rain up our aerial masts is well above 100mph. The screws you can get out dip the screw in Vaseline then refit. Those you can't get to use a small artist paint brush and liberally coat as best you can. To test, coat a nut and bolt in Vaseline then leave submerged in salt water and see how you go. Use Vaseline, not a cheap alternative. Vaseline tends to be more viscous and is ideal but will not set no matter what.
The issue would be getting it there! Also, the waves on the bow are powerful, and would wash the petroleum jelly off in fast order, I fear.
Hi Alex
Re electric motors
The voltage drop is about 3 volt on the current setup, that gives you just over 1000 watts. Whats needed is 6 AWG to give you maximum power with only a .25 voltage drop. Cost about £1.50 a foot for good quality stuff.
Wish you well sir.
Will be interesting to see how the silicon holds up in cold temps. My bet is on it hardening and loosing the majority of it's dampening ability at a minimum.
The issue is that the premium elastic shock cords tend to stiffen and fail. If there's a rubber that will maintain some 'give' in the cold, it's this. I think a load more holes will really help.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Have you considered a hydraulic dampener? Something along the lines of a mountain bike center shock. Then you could adjust dampening by the built in ability (valves) and by a change of oil type, which would double in helping deal with different severity of sub-zero temps.
With respect, that sounds nightmarish!
@@AlexHibbertOriginals haha probably because of my explanation. If you have a mountain biker friend or shop nearby it's worth asking them; much much simpler than it seems.
*losing the majority. Silicone should be good for extreme cold and heat. I am buying 12v wire at the moment from the same place as Alex (I think) and its silicone coated instead of PVC, good for 200ºc.
The wire is definitely undersized according to good engineering principles, but probably not dangerously so in this case. It will be used intermittently for short periods of time, outdoors, half underwater, and not coiled in an enclosed place. Probably fit for purpose for a bow thruster but nothing more. They look like surplus or grey market ROV motors to me.
The core motors appear to be those generic IP68 pods very commonly available on component websites across the world, then the various companies do their own ESC, prop, mount and wiring to complete the unit.
Be careful separating the top and bottom. Small leaks are a part of boating. If you separate them, make sure you are prepared to reattach them properly.
Yeah - definitely aiming to minimise any impact on what's a perfectly strong join.
For motors etc using the Chinese rating system probably the continuous rating would be perhaps 1/3rd that quoted which would explain the undersized wiring.
Because you are using budget LFP batteries I highly recommend keeping an eye on voltage drift over term. If they start drifting too much then an added balancer like the one from Victron would be needed.
Within or between batteries?
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Within the batteries would be a quality issue and call on warranty; very difficult to look at cell voltages with those sealed units. My comment is about between (betwix in British so far as my neighbor says) and is a concern when using 2X 12V units to create 24V as an example.
With lower cost batteries one will likely drift in capacity over time more than the other, and eventually cause further drifting and a faster death. Easily monitored by one every ~6 months or at the same time as a motor service interval (running hours). Just disconnect the batteries from each other, let them sit for a day or two, and check the voltage down to the 100ths place. Load testing can also be done....a bit overkill though.
A battery balancer basically nurses any drift between the battery units to avoid over/under charging.
Ah yes understood. I'll probably charge them separately at 12V, so they'll always start a cycle at the same voltage.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Good plan! While a bit extra work it will do a much better job.
Maybe use silicone spray grease injected along the inside seam? It’s renewable, effective and rust controlling.
Been sealing my boat windows for some years while avoiding the inevitable..
I would certainly leave that rubbing strake severely alone!
I certainly echo your last point. It's a good rubbing strake!
if the interior can seal air tight, you could remove the inner seal of the boat seam, run a nice new seal around the rub rail and close it all watertight, and then run a serious dehumidifier for a few weeks. That should encourage all that trapped moisture to come out of the joint section.
Regarding Chinese motors generally, I expect that you will find almost exactly the same design of motor from other factories, possible subtle differences in cable used or colours, but the specs will vary wildly as will the prices, but nothing internal will be actually different. Eg you may find one with double the rating and a higher price, only to test it and find it is exactly the same, and can't meet the actual rating provided by the manufacturer. Just a caution from previous mistakes I've made.
The rub rail on my boat started leaking through the hull just like yours when the rubber started to dry out and shrink. I ended up taking the rub rail off completely(with a oscillating multi tool, drill, screw driver, hammer a chisel and a lot of swearing) and then filling in all the bolt holes. Are the top and bottom bolted together or are the halves bonded together those bolts going through the seam?
The latter - it's all bolted through. I'm trying to find a solution that does not mean lots of destruction and associated swearing.
Former industrial electrician here and I think I know what is going on;
Is the 50 amps inrush current or constant current? A motor has inrush current, which is only there until the motor starts rotating at full speed. I would assume that the motor only pulls 12 amps when actually running. Based on the size of that motor, I would guess it is about a 1/3 horse motor, so 12 amps at 24 volts comes to 288 Watts at about 88% efficiency puts out 1/3 horse at the prop, so if that is what they said they were selling you, that should be right. Yeah, the wire is probably fine, mate, but since you are going further, put one size larger, so 10 gauge AWG.
I don't want to counter someone who clearly knows their stuff, but the manufacturer UA-cam channel shows the wattage at roughly their ratings when running, not just peak at startup.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals Ok, (watches video) so it is not the inrush current then, which was the one question I had. The current rating for wire gauges is for use without getting an electrical engineer involved in doing calculations. You also can get away with thinner wire if the cable is rated for higher temperature or had better cooling, but they are over relying on water cooling in their design.
It is ok for it to get warm, but not above the rating of the cable or to increase resistance (40 degrees Celsius is a good operating number for cable to top out at). The other question is how much are you going to run it. If it is more than an hour straight, you need a beefier cable.
Your plan to go thicker to the size you mentioned in your vireo should work perfect and deal with the thin wire they used if the section that is thin is actually underwater as you are taking Alan in Arctic operations.
Cheers - yep, trying to be discerning, without necessarily throwing what appears to be an otherwise very robust-feeling unit on the scrap heap. The re-wire is a must.
If you use 8 AWG then it can handle around 85 amp continuous & the diameter of the wire should be around 3.5mm. Basic rule of thumb is if you use double the amp rating that you really need then you won't have issues & it also allows for future upgrades that draw more power.
The Motor Windigs itsself and here perticular probably more the build in motor control circuit traces and the type and amount ot FET Transistors is what limits your possible max current. (plus little bit bargin from the watre and in arctic waters even more the cold water)
Stepping up the wires to a diameter who is more as the rating of that thing is isnt nessesary. Most of these are generous with its power ratings (if not to say lying) and give you leway from this point. Also you probably never stall it and run it for long duration on full load need. So there is also room there.
I would think AWG 12 ist enough, even the step up to 10 isnt needet exept you want to midigate the voltage drop and be on the save side.
But 8 AWG would be just not make any sense ynd you start to get into problems with having physical space in the inlet openings.
Power loss is also a problem, energy wasted
@@Dave78214 question is how mutch you loose and how often you use them. he was more concerned about the real poweroutput the pod can reach to not cap them there to mutch and burning the wires when used. but he uses them only for bowthrusters or maneuveringthrusters for docking and something. thats only minutes or even seconds only. you cant even waste enough energy with the cables to make a different since the motor itsself drains the small batteries quickly.
In a long running verry efficient optimised setup for a autonomous drone ship for example you would think about.
@@Total_Egal well yeah, there are multiple angles to look into, others had not seemed to mention the power loss and it's sort of accounted for in the choice of correct guage and the voltage loss point - the wire doesn't seem to be the correct gauge, and 5 or 6 might be appropriate if the motor really can handle that much continuous power - perhaps it is useful for intermittent power bursts, like you say as a bow thruster
if you drop 2V over 1.6m that's 100W wasted at 50A current, and then as the temperature increases, the resistance also increases - 60W lightbulbs can start fires. I think the cooling from the water on the submerged part of the wire might be sufficient in factory tests.
Regarding the rubbing strake, would it be possible to ask advice from the manufacturer of the lifeboat or whoever is currently producing the same.
Normar are kaput, and when I asked other TELB companies for advice/documents, I got zero reply. It's not unreasonable, as I'm not a customer.
Would duty cycle be something to think about? On a bow thruster you are unlikely to run it full tilt for more than a minute or so. Probably best to use this one for the thruster and the newer ones with larger gauge wire all the way for the tender.
Very wise indeed
Don’t remove the rub rail. Just seal it to Alan with black marine caulk. Fill the gap from the top, bottom and the screw holes. This will keep both sea water and rain water from coming in.
I fear this would be a very much larger project then need be. Whats that saying about perfect and good enough? Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good.
If the thruster is going to be mounted permanently below the water then I’d make sure to do a leak test. Way it before and after sitting in your fresh water bin over night.
I’d go with 10 gauge wire for 50 amps continuous.
You are very much along my way of thinking. I didn't want to sway people first though in case of other ideas.
Quite amazing. I still worry about you crossing a big sea though. Will you have a lifeboat? 😉
A liferaft, yes.
I like your jury rig silicone shock reducer. . .just wanted to say (and I’m sure you know this) but there are companies in the US that make these in many different sizes for different shock needs. I used them on a snubber on my 34 ft. Sadler (British) and it never failed and did reduce shock. Your method might be cheaper although I’m not really sure. . .Thanks.
I have the normal shock dampers for Alan, but I need -40 rated ones for my sledging, so silicone it is.
For 50amps, you really want to go to 8awg at bare minimum. It's best to oversize your cable rather than hope you can get away with a short length of thiner guage wire.
Do you have any idea what the cable sheath is? If it is something like silicone it can run far hotter. The risk you have is that the inner insulation melts and causes a short circuit if it is not a thermosetting cable. Saying that for the short durations it is being run for, I would not be too worried, especially if you are using a speed controller and it is not constantly running at 100%. The place to be a little carful is where you bring the cable through a bulkhead, that is where you will get heat buildup. If you want to test the actualy current it is pulling, I have a clamp meter you can use, I also work with a couple of companies that do subsea cable jointing, conectors and penetrators that I can put you in contact with.
It's not silicone - probably pvc or polyolefin. But in any case, thin wire is inefficient even if you can actively pull away the wasteful heat to reduce the safety issue.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals it is definitely not right, they should have put thicker cable on. In terms of losses, it is about 60w per meter of cable. I would be tempted to try and shorten the cable as much as possible, or open it up and try to replace the cable completely
The radiator fans on my Chevy Colorado have the same gauge wire, I think you'll be alright.
Had to take the deck off a Pearson Ensign once and the rubber gunnel, like yours I suspect, has a “barb” like construction that allowed for easy snapping in (also screwed in), but even after heating and tugging we could not get it out, so we had to destroy it and install a new one. . .Sorry, that’s all I know!
Yes - to me it appears to be single install only.
I am more curious how you plan on mounting the bow thruster in a way that it wont fall off.
A crew member will hang over the bow and hold it there.
@AlexHibbertOriginals ahhh then they can double as a fender
The term "kilopond" has been declared obsolete and obscene, says wikipedia. For those who abhor the use of "kilogram" as unit of force.
It does indeed feel far from intuitive. Hard to get a sense of kgf.
I have a great and fast idea to fix the leak in the pvc bumper. Buy a new lifeboat
Can it be clamped on/lowered as needed?
I'm making a light composite mount
could you please explain awg in the uk we use mm sq could worked it out for you in mm
www.multicable.com/resources/reference-data/cross-reference-awg-to-mm2/
AWG is used quite a lot over here too.
Regards the wiring for the thruster, another concern is the wiring may be (probably is) aluminium coated with copper instead of the real thing. For many applications aluminium wiring, while not being ideal, is not a huge deal breaker but for you, it would be far more serious.
I've never come across this in marine motors, even the Chinese know that copper is best in salt water...
I thought the ‘good stuff’ was tinned and not straight copper for marine purposes. Most low voltage wire from China is silicone coated and tinned (allegedly) finely stranded wire in my recent foray into researching and then purchasing some.
I'll find out when I cut and rewire, but the manufacturer stated it was pure copper.
Hi Alex
Help please if you would
I’ve purchased a 48v unit from one of the alternative suppliers and the pwm from Apisqueen
My motor unit is missing the centre wire from the 3 pin plug for the pwm
Could you tell me where it leads from
I’m suspecting possibly a 5v supply to the pwm
Many thanks in advance to anyone that can help
I'm afraid I'm not sure of the exact problem - hard to visualise. You can email ApisQueen though and ask - they do reply in a manner of speaking... They sent me an incorrect lead, and had to replace it.
One of the saws all. Cut the screwheads and re drill and bolt it.
youll get there trial and error the way forward
For that amount of money you could buy a very good outboard electric motor, which could very easily be repurposed if it doesn’t work out as a bow motor, and has proven reliability. The ducted motor looks kewl, but judging by the company reps claims regarding the wiring I wouldn’t trust the performance figures they quote on their website. Would be interesting to see how the ducted motor performs in a test compared to an unducted electric outboard motor. Depending on Alan’s loaded tonnage, there might not be a big difference.
I don't think having lots of outboards would work in the module I have in mind for emergency power, or fixed on the bow as a thruster. I'd also struggle to combine them all under a remote control system without having one custom made and voiding the warranties of the outboards.
I have zero hope that this motor will hold up underwater.
Ah! Yes I recall your constructive assistance from other videos.
My experience in using "heavy duty" jumper cables to test a 1,000 watt motor was. Hmm, what is that burning smell, hmmm why is there melted pvc on my floor.
Basically, all they quoted the power and currents are all plucked from the sky
Make Alan as dry as possible!
Our channel motto.
The real issue here is likely intentional exaggeration of the power this motor can actually make. I would love to know the amp draw
Did you actually test the current levels?
You are 100% right that wire will not be able to handle the 50 amps, but I highly doubt that the motor will pull that much amps as it is not 1200 watts... I think you got scammed on the motor.
Don't they make a sprayseal type of stuff that is pretty good at sealing leaks along fittings like you have?
I did not - my claw-style current meter is playing up. The manufacturer UA-cam channel shows the wattage at roughly their ratings when running. I'm unhappy with the manufacturer on a couple of levels, but I don't think the rated numbers were a 'scam' by a factor of, for example, 2 or more.
@@AlexHibbertOriginals The only way to know for sure is to measure the running amps going to the motor. If it is less than 50 amps then the wattage is not 1200. Of course you would need to test the voltage as well and multiply that by the amps, whatever that would be.
It is common for china motor to not be anywhere near what they say they are unless it is an expensive motor. I have seen motors advertised at 1200 watts and they actually put out about 500-800 watts maxed out.
Sorry you have this issue with that manufacturer..
Did the spray seal idea help?
Chinese cheaper units, are mostly reduced in quality by poor soldering and quick n easy straight forward solutions. At best, at the absolute minimal regarding wires quality and wire shielding. I always replace all of them, and go over the soldering where I can. It has to be correct, since any point where you lengthen a cable, or connect it, will be even weaker than the cable itself. So you don't want the cable to be the pitfall. Luckilly a 24v-system often need fewer amps than a 12v-sytsem.
Alex, I think you are right to have concerns about the overall quality of Chinese supplied equipment. While they are more than capable of producing high quality goods, there is a murky (almost fraudulent) peripheral environment which produces crap and they outright lie about specifications and capabilities.
Just a few observations:
1. You have not conducted a full load test, and that is important if you are examining the cable temperatures (heating effect = current squared x resistance).
2. As far as bow thruster duties for Alan is concerned, you might get away with it, as this is not continuous use, as it generally used for short periods of time and in bursts.
3. The more arduous application is the tender , where you are much more likely (in comparison) to be using at or near full load for significant period of time.
If you are interested in some of the issues with Chinese supplied equipment (electrical) I will edit this post with a link to an excellent video which gives a real world example. ua-cam.com/video/DInwut0DzTQ/v-deo.htmlsi=U3NjRkEP3GMz0oW4. It’s a long video (40 mins) but well worth watching - the chap knows his stuff.
Already up to speed with 1-3, cheers, and thanks for the link - will have a watch.
Yeah, that wire is too thin.
if you need batteries ive got the hoooooook up ;p im sitting on over a dozen northstar reds 12v 200amp
Not sure if this is a genuine offer! Are you in the UK?
@@AlexHibbertOriginals It's genuine lol, I'm in the US so shipping might actually bite us in the ass, didn't think about that. They're like $500-700 each but I was selling for $300, however for you I'd do $200 each but I'm not sure what shipping would be. If you're interested Ill look into it. They're rated for air shipping too. Basically I work on radio towers and we installed them for a 911 system and only a few months later they were replaced with a diesel generator and were never used. So they've just been sitting in a battery tender cabinet. They are beasts.
Sadly they'd cost about $1000 per pair to air freight!
@@AlexHibbertOriginals I crunched some numbers and just as an example to get all 12 from here to say London the cheapest option I found was about $1,000 on the nose. I know you need ballast though ;p wink wink and they're about 61 kilos each. So if you got all 12 you're looking at about 3,400 but I'd give you 2 free and make it a round $3,000. Food for thought. Otherwise I'll just end up selling locally. I actually have 16 of them but want to keep a few for my own little projects.
A kind thought, but I think best to sell local!
As others wrote your test gives you no valuable results of cable temps.
The way you test in air shows a bit of air pushing plus motor losses. Also testing in a circulating box does not gives the true " water pushing load". If you want to now the truth... run it in the sea. And use a ampere clamp meter to see the real current.
For the waterproof gland I highly advice you to use "Blue Globe" once. Plus pure-type cabling...
Why do I advice? Because I did some diving lamps and diving scooter. I real condition the power is bigger ( broke my motor wheel 😅)
You will be to fare away to defect them fail..
Love your project and All the best.
I did say I need to make a pontoon mount to run it down in the marina. I just thought the first impressions would be of interest.
You will probably find that the Motor isn’t even a 50 W motor hence why you have small gauge wire, the Chinese due this quote regularly and exaggerate outputs, especially on batteries and motors
I have an ammeter on order - so we'll find out!
Mmmmmmm, Chinese Mystery Motors......
✌😎✌
Oh they joys of having to source pretty much everything from china! Even if they manage to use the correct guage theres no guarantee itll be copper. They love a bit of copper coated aluminium out there......
Once again I am here to mention the Lynch/AGNI motor for propulsion, here is some more information:
The Lynch motor is an unconventional design with a disc armature. It marries the advantages of a conventional, wound armature motor with the benefits of a flat (printed circuit) motor. It is similar to a pancake motor, but is more powerful than any of these technologies. The disc armature has magnets on both sides, doubling the available flux density and shortening the magnetic path. It therefore packs more power per pound and per cubic inch than any other motor technology. Of course such a revolutionary motor is not for every application - it is not as cheap as wound field motors, but for many applications it is a far superior motor. It has a previously unheard of power to weight ratio and also power to volume ratio. It is also highly efficient because of the double magnet design and associated short magnetic path. It also includes integral fan cooling.
The Lynch motor is an important development which spurred other motor designers to improve their products to remain competitive, such as synchronus permanent magnet machines. As a result of the competition between manufacturers the cost of high performance motors and controllers has fallen dramatically. We hope the cost of solar cells also reduces to allow renewable transportation to develop as a viable alternative to carbon fuels.
Cedric Lynch built his electric bike around a mid-drive configuration, also building one of the worlds most efficient light weight electric motors to power his rig reliably at 60-MPH for significant distances. He would later set several world records with his axial flux motor and bring it to market as the Lynch / Agni motor. Briggs and Stratton would eventually buy this technology which would lead to the Etek motor, which is now famous for making high speed efficient electric hot rods.
Cedric uses to achieve high speeds is by following the rules of aerodynamics, and building a bike that is as aerodynamic and as efficient as possible. The other builders on this list bypassed this step, and Cedric uses this bicycle as daily transportation on real commutes. Although this high-efficiency motor uses “old school” brushes, this fact allows builders to use very affordable controllers. He has proven his design choices through thousands of miles of commuting, and the Lynch motor is highly respected.
Cedric Lynch is known as the creator of the Agni Motor, a highly efficient electric motor that weighs around 25 pounds and can put out as much as 50hp.
Cedric Lynch is a British 'mad scientist' type mechanical engineer obsessed with the idea of greener transportation. His interest has been in building a super efficient yet powerful vehicle that can serve as a car replacement.
He started thinking of his own design for an electric motor in 1983 when he began entering competitions organized by the Battery Vehicle Society regarding building an efficient electric vehicle. At the time there was no reasonably priced DC motor with descent efficiency so Lynch decided to build his own utilizing modifying existing motors with old tin cans that he would spread out flat to use as cooling fins. Surprisingly using rudimentary materials and a garage work bench, Cedric was making better more efficient electric motors than any of the universities were able to manufacture in state of the art workshops.
Cedric then came up with a motor design that could be cheaply manufactured and began manufacturing his own motor that he could sell to the public in 1988 and the Lynch Electric Motor Company was born, known as LEMCO.
Cedric first used his motor to create a small boat called “The Spark” that would set an electric boat efficiency record. From there Cedric turned his attention to bicycles, an application generally considered too small for a lynch motor at that time. Cedric mounted his motor in recumbent bike, allowing him space to eventually use a set of thundersky lithium batteries.
The resulting aerodynamic recumbent bike had a top speed of 60mph and still managed an incredible range of 150 miles. Cedric rode his recumbent creation everywhere as a daily commuter, putting an amazing 50,000 miles on the machine - technically a motorbike.
Briggs and Stratton, the US firm famous for lawn mower engines, bought the technology and used it in their E-Tech Motor, and Cedric went on to manufacture his latest incarnation of his lynch design into the Agni motor, which is used in go karts, sailboats, motor boats, and even small airplanes.
The Lynch designed motors all have the same traits. Brushed motors, around 25 pounds in weight and they are able to put out enormous power compared to their weight. Sometimes as high as 50 hp (depending on amperage ran through the motor) at an incredible 98% efficiency. Lynch Motors are also the most often used motors in electric motorcycle racing applications.
Cedric's zero-emission motorcycle, which has a top speed of 120mph, was shown in action winning the world’s first zero carbon race - the TTxGP in the Isle of Mann.
The idea for the electric motor has been snapped up by the 56-year-old’’s friend Arvind Rabadia, who together with his brother Hasmuk Rabadia had been thinking of starting a business in India. They have now set up Agni Motors to make further-improved versions of Cedric’s motors
Despite Cedric’s breakthrough invention he has no formal engineering qualifications and taught himself the techniques needed to construct his engine. He first became interested in electrics when his parents bought him a book entitled How to build things from things found at home.
The Etek motor is a brushed 25-pound pancake shaped motor that puts out enormous power for its weight. Depending on amperage and voltage the Etek can easily provide between 15-horsepower and 30-horsepower reliably and consistently (11-kW / 22-kW). A perfect platform for a powerful electric bike if you do not mind the weight. Although brushless motors are considered more modern, a brushed motor like the Etek allows the builder to use very affordable controllers.
Cedric-Lynch invented the motor and sold it to Briggs and Stratton which US company produced the Etek at a lower price (around $600). In the late 90’s early 2000’s it was the way to go for a high-power / light-weight electric vehicle. Many small E-vehicle records were set using the Etek motor. Finally, the market had a relatively lightweight and powerful electric motor available to the masses.
In essence, the Etek allowed hot rodders to build electric bikes. Before the Etek very few people had ever achieved 50mph on an electric bike. Even today, Etek motors (and newer incarnations of the Etek motor) are used to make some super fast electric bikes. In the case of Liveforphysics, the fastest E-bikes ever.
As impressive as the first time I read up about them! Sadly, beyond our means at Team Alan.
😂 Those thermal circuit breakers are 100% rubbish, don't believe me check the UA-cam videos showing tests.
Can you link me? This one had 4+ stars on the site I bought from.
I dont think ill be buying anything from them based on what they sent you.
The actual unit is very solidly made.
I might be wrong but theres usually a reason for them making spec up. Id be interested to see if the motor actually is 50Amps. @@AlexHibbertOriginals
Quite. I'll find out with an ammeter, and getting a qualitative sense of how well it powers the dinghy.
it always amuses me when these youtubers get so shocked when they buy cheap crap from china and the spec's are all A lie . figure its about 1/3 of advertised so those wires are about right.
There aren't 'western' ones. Only large electric outboards, and most of them are made in..... China.
The thrust for this U22 is substantial, and I can't believe I'm defending them, but the company posts videos of them thrust testing the units.
what i learned from discussing with chinese: their english is bad. use 3 word sentences if possible.
To be fair, I'd struggle with the convo in Cantonese. It's not really the language that hacked me off.
dumbness in this episode - wasting time with chinese motors when european manufacturers make the best electric thrusters on the planet, needing bow thrusters when prop walk will do the job, using 12v packs when 24v packs exist, using packs with no active thermal management in an arctic expedition vessel.
also if the rub rail is leaking - use a jigsaw, cut out the bad and replace with new rub rail. there are no shortcuts on boats.
oh and if you want an actual marine thruster i use an aquamot 2.2 on my yacht with dakota dl+ 24v 135Ah with active thermal management.
Wow ! A REAL EXPERT on everything....
@@Thelostgoldhunters no expertise. just hard experience on the water.