Bro, Your energies are very welcome here, we are abliged 2 match d level.... Welcome aboard!!! HAVAYA 30 in the barrel, starting March. Once again we focus on simplicity and cost... All d best, BSY.....
Could you use a "Romy sail rig" aka the flying lanteen sail on your creation. Check youtube clips for vids. The guy that invented it did not go into production. Check it out and make it your own. With your skill level I am sure you could create a totally new beast.
I just wanted to make a boat like that, a proa that I can take on the roof of the car. Do not have plans or something that I can use as a reference to make the hull?
Here U go Bro! This is how 'WHY NOT?' started, I built him in 5 days! Keep Shunting, Balkan Shipyards ua-cam.com/video/jACkJPf7yKY/v-deo.htmlsi=QoTv3K9XrFRtslsZ ua-cam.com/video/vH0x-tZUMY0/v-deo.htmlsi=RT_bnU7dPrDkjayJ
Great, thoughtful, sincere videos! Much appreciated, especially here on inland waters! BTW, I appreciate the Homeric epithet, the "rosy fingered dawn", and in Greek waters!
Great to see you afloat Rael! You are the answer to all the armchair 'experts' and nay-sayers... but an inspiration to those who have a dream but who have not yet found the courage to try out their ideas.
Good energy is always welcome... It's kinda funny how true it is and how often one will get told "It wont work....." Ignoring destructive comments is the only way to go on... It gets hard at times, an overlooked detail can prove months of work to be a total failure... One must just understand that success and failure are so tightly woven together, that success actually is a result of failure. Take care brother.
Hi Rael, as far as "few problems" with reefing, my opinion is: 1) with CC I can reef 50% sail area without loosing quality of profile at all, where to achieve the same with bermuda: II-nd reef on mainsail leaves c.a. 70% area up and stayssail after 50% reduction could hardly work upwind due to deformation and wrong sheets setup, 2) for big winds I never could reef bermuda rig enough and always changed to special stormy sails - that I would also recommend for CC (even easier to apply), and please consider: 2.1) bermuda under special storm sail cannot avoid significant drag from his mast, which is long for at least 130% yacht length, compared to CC with mast length c.a. 70% of vaka length. Higher mast means also higher wind speed at the top, and drag grows as second power of windspeed. 2.2) in rough conditions the wind is often less problem then waves and in such a deep V (if applied) behaves far better then flat bottom yacht with a fin-keel, because deep V hull generates lift even at small speed when a foil has to gain on speed before can generate any lift or their drift helplessly most of the time. 2.3) have you tried to stay adrift? in extremes: low masted, low profile = low air drag proa, can probably drift slower toward danger somewhere downwind and wait for conditions to change longer, then bermuda sloop 3) there can always be conditions which over-helms abilities of your vessel and it is the navigation skill which should always adapt to features of your vessel. 4) skills of sailor and navigator makes the biggest difference to survive :) and I believe I can myself better use reefed CC to survive then regular Bermuda. Regards Janusz
Very interesting comment Janusz. The CC is an amazing rig! that's true and I like it a lot!! I must first begin with the fact that I DON'T want a bermuda rig on a proa, lowering one head sail and raising the other every shunt is too much work... Also too expensive and changing the low stress rig of a proa to a high stress rig of a sloop complicates everything.... I sailed a 22 foot mono from England to Bulgaria. The only sails I had were a genoa and a main, I could reef them enough and sail o.k. to windward even in a force 7 no problem. In the Atlantic in a force 8, I sailed down wind very well with reffed genoa alone, it was a roller furling... She had no problems sailing with only those 2 sails between no wind and very strong winds. She was an old and very strong boat, so her rig could take serious conditions without proper storm sails. I probably wouldn't sail a modern racer cruiser like that.... Waves are the problem, here in the Black Sea they are the worst I've seen, in the ocean even in a normal force 8 (at sea, things are never the same and comparing isn't really possible.... But still....) they don't effect the hulls motion much. Here in the smaller waters, the waves maybe smaller, but they are steep WALLS of water! They rock the boat aggressively, they stop the boat no problem!! Sailors with big yachts that crossed oceans were commenting how even their boats are stopped by these crazy walls...... And these waves just love breaking things....... They are native to the whole region, combine that with ever changing winds and you have a region that demands respect! It's NOT ONLY down to your navigation skills and the ability to make the right choice at the right time, It's down to luck and you being able to safely operate your vessel. So, in my opinion... On "Why Not?" and on "Crystal Clear" tying in a reef on those long spars, to effectively reef the sail will demand me to be on the vaka using both hands to tie reef knots over the full length of the spars, going from bow to stern. Here, because of those waves, this is not easy and can be very dangerous. In the Pacific no one did this, they used brailing lines to depower the sail. The new sail had no shape but it wasn't a problem because the boat could still sail o.k. on a reach and that was enough to sail to safety and miss the small island that was down wind. Changing sails seems to me like even a bigger problem then reefing. I have done it on the beach many times, on the water it will be much harder. First moving the big CC through the mast and forestay/backstay from where it was to the other side of the boat, so I can keep it on the akas... That alone puts me in a very dangerous situation, I must throw almost the whole length of the spars into the sea using both hands, so I can turn them and bring them through the mast and rigging. I must do that standing up (probably) using both hands and very close to the edge of the boat, I feel that falling off is just a question of time...... Once that's done, you will need to do it all over, back to front, with your smaller CC. Now you will need to connect minimum 5 ropes to the new sail. On land no problem, at sea in rough conditions and "WALL" waves just dangerous. Again, this was not done in the pacific. Janusz, this is my opinion only, I'm not arguing with the different qualities of different rigs.... I just think that the CC is not always the best rig for a proa and I am now designing a single shunting rig that probably wont be as powerful (but who knows...) but I hope and believe will be safer and easier to reef.... Keep Shunting Balkan Shipyards. Rael.
Hi Rael, I believe it is possible to design CC rig for "Why Not", which will: - have same full size sail area as your sail which you use now, - can be dropped down in strong wing straight on the deck - reefed without spending much time and hoisted back - stored safely in case you use stormy rig - very easy to replace with stormy rig You probably have focused much more on the outrigger itself then designing slightly more sophisitcated rig :). Pity to hear you cannot safely move around whole vaka on high seas but that is nothing to do with CC and you can improve this, probably . My experience sailing proas in strong wind is limited to Pjoa and Mata Pjoa (16.7sqm on 200+-kg vessel). Rig was designed to utilize full sail when going upwind in force 4B real wind, so can handle 5B apperent, "no problem" ;). Sailing on a reach or with waves (up to 2m high on the Baltic) we managed 6B steady wind (and stronger squalls) just brailing hard. When we wanted to strand we just needed to slow down to 6-8 knots by towing spare sheet. The issue in sailing upwind against steepy waves of Baltic Sea, is rather high speed you gain on full sail, which requires special technique to slow down to 4-6 knots. Depowering sail with brailing lines is not adequate on this course. Reefing is the right answer unless you need even smaller rig (?7B), but because proa makes one system, so it is the outrigger which I see a week chain link then, rather then the rig.
That's good work! and a very big sail!! Reefing a CC... It probably is possible. But it's not safe. I will need to change the whole deck layout to make it possible. Our boats are different, our decks are very different.... Deck size, mast position, rigging position..... We see....................
also seems like you should be able to put some kind of a rail going from bow to bow around your lee pod to guide your tack with some kind of "tack haul" so you could quickly shunt without having to leave your seat.
@@BalkanShipyards put a pully on each bow and make a rail/arc fasctened at each bow and on your lee pod and then run a line from the tack thru each pully back to your cockpit then just pull the tack across when you go to shunt.
@@BalkanShipyards yeah, that's basically right, but with a CC your tack guide (or what you called the "yard rail;" however it seems to me it should be "tack" something :) ) would be fastened at each bow and to the lee side of your lee pod (if you have one, otherwise you'd probably need some kind of support there in the middle) with a block fastened to each bow and to the tack. That line could be a big loop loose enough to reach to wherever you choose to pilot from. When you shunt you just pull the loop and the tack would move effortlessly from bow to bow. I think it might even pull your mast over. You wouldn't lift the tack and step it onto the bow but just let it hang there pulled up tight to that bow's block (after you cleat off the loop close to where you're piloting). The tack guide just stops the tack from getting fouled up on your lee pod or anything else on the lee side of your boat and allows it to make a nice smooth arc from bow to bow. It also could be made of some smooth material like polypropylene plastic to prevent chafe of the sail and boom.
If u take the time to properly watch my rigging video u will find all the answers u need. Pacific proa free design 2 ua-cam.com/video/vH0x-tZUMY0/v-deo.html
Thanx!!! Yes asymmetrical Vaka, and daggerboard in Ama, the dagger reduces leeway, it works well. Happy u like him... This is my second Proa, my third one is the best, soon we build a big cruising Proa based on the last one... here's a VIDEO: ua-cam.com/video/F7TjCkXuoLg/v-deo.html Keep Shunting, Balkan Shipyards.
@@BalkanShipyards Your job is really cool. I have a proa project, it is still in the model phase. You have an Instagram account, I would like to send you some photos of the model.
P.S. "...would be parallel to the boom", and thereby, when tied down to the boom, bring down the COE. Of course this would exclude the use of sail sleeves at least for the yard, in favor of slides, or hoops. The COE would also go forward a bit, which is a good place to go, as it tends to move backwards, as the wind picks up. Lee helm could easily be compensated by lengthening the (ADJUSTABLE ((sorry for harping on this, but it is a sadly neglected steering device for Proas, the more important, the bigger the size of the boat, as the impact of the crew weight grows less important.)) weather shroud. That would also bring down The COE a trifle, and at the same influence positively the heeling Proas dramatic loss of righting moment. Servus, Reto
My previous idea for WHY NOT? was a "LaCat" rig.... The idea was a Lateen sail that looks and works like a Cat rig, so LaCat.... The idea was an almost vertical yard with a luff track and sliders on the sail, a canting mast holding the yard at 2/3 height, so loops wouldn't work. The sail would have 3 reefs with metal grommets. I was thinking of a square head sail with full battens (the cheaper option would be a gaff sail). So the sail would work like the Crab Claw, the yard would move from bow to bow..... One thing I love about Cat rigs is the wishbone boom.... So, we will put on one of those.... Now, how will you reef? You need a boom at the bottom of the sail where you could tie your reef lines.... O.K. lets have one of those.... So the wishbone can go now? No, we need it too! On flat top sails leech tension is very important to prevent excessive sail twist and for such a long boom (over half boat length) a boom vang that's connected to the yard?? will probably just be shit! So we keep the wishbone too..... I think they are cool, because the push the sail out and down at once. So now, except for a big expense, it's going to add some weight!!! I drew this sail 1000 times, I thought about it for weeks.... A 9 square meter full battened main sail with a track will probably cost almost as much as the whole boat. A big portion of the weight that I will add is high up, the yard was going to be a plywood wing. When I drew the sail in proportion and compared it with my Crab Claw, The CE went up by 100%!!! Bottom line, too expensive (probably). Too complicated (maybe). Too heavy (again probably). But the straw that broke the camel's back was, CE at double the height! No way..... So back to the Crab Claw.... By the way, can you shunt once reefed and you have lowered the yard? does the new lower position of the sail allow the sail to be moved over to the new bow? All d best. Keep Shunting..... Rael.
Yes, I can shunt with lowered yard, but the mast has to be trimmed enough to leeward, so that the yardtip doesn't interfere with masttip. Again: adjustable shroud. But, as i said, I have sailed it in really severe conditions, and I have to admit COE really down would be much better. So for your previous Idea: Leave out the wishbone and the fat top, keep the tilting mast the steep yard, the sliders, and the shorter boom, sread the spars a bit, and you'll get the same reefable Crabclaw as I have in mind, it is clear and logical. Servus, Reto
Sounds interesting.... A Crab Claw that looks and works like a Cat Rig. Your new rig design sounds like the first "Cat Claw"..... Do you agree??? All d best. Rael
Good video. Does your conclusion regarding the crab claw sail means that you might consider keeping " Crystal Clear " a schooner ? Either way I am staying tuned. Thanks for the knowledge and good luck with what is still to come.
Hey Ramius, Thanx 4 liking. As for CC, I believe the schooner is going 2 d junk yard... Still I'm not sure yet what exactly I will do on her, as it depends on how my new rig will work on "WHY NOT?" The plan at the moment is single sail, It's easier to use, cheaper and better to windward, sounds like a winner to me.....
In Port Moresby proas, they changed the crab-claw (that really looks like a crab claw) to sprit sails, then again, not that easy to reef, more of an "on/off" sail. A lug sail, fully battened or not seems better in this regard. All 3 (crab, sprit, lug) seem to be a very good compromise performance/cost. A concept from east PNG I like are the sails used in Ninigo.
Share the invaluable experience of building this prota type can you? I'm interested in the length of the width and height of the canoe? And how to attach the sail from below?))))
Great video. The sound seems to be gone though, did it get a copyright strike? I'm sure you have plenty of ideas about the rig, but just some food for thought: Have you considered something a bit like a crabclaw rig with battens, a bit like a junk rig, so if you want to reef you just pull the reefing line on one of the battens and everything below that furls up? Good luck anyhow, I'll be interested to see what you come up with.
I too am thinking of some sort of jiffy reefing for a crab claw, with or without battens I haven't decided yet.... The main thing I'm trying to solve is reefing from the top down, vs the usual way that is from the bottom up. The standard for reefing CC's is raising the boom, that also raises the CE. My idea (if it works...) will reduce sail area from the top without raising the boom or dropping the yard...... confused? I was too, so I drew it a million times and it seems to work on paper, finally.... . As for making it.... At the moment I'm taking time to do other stuff (I decided I need a break and am focusing on some high class freestyle furniture...) Once done, I will start making models with cloth and probably rig up a simple wind tunnel for testing. As soon as I get back to it, I will start filming and uploading again.... One thing I do know is that the future is with canting masts......... All d best.
Yes and No... The Balestron may be a pretty good concept, though I have a few problems with it.... It may well be the most expensive rig in the world! I mess with proas just because I believe that if kept simple, one could get more speed to the dollar then any other vessel. A Balestron will add too many dollars to the equation, putting the vessel in a higher category. Simple hulls need simple rigs, royalty and poverty just don't mix... The Balestron will be heavy since it's a high stress free standing Bermuda, such a rig must be seriously designed and well made. The Chinese junk also a free standing rig, could be designed and built for very little, adding little weight (if any...) to the overall vessel, because it is a very low stress rig. This is what sets these unstayed rigs far apart. Finally the shroud going from mast head to ama, I believe is fundamental to the overall strength of the pacific proa. Not only does it hold the mast and lift the ama, it also reduces aka loads to almost nothing allowing the builder to make very simple and lightweight akas that will live a happy and stress free life...... My 2 cents only.... The search goes on......
Hi Robin. Since I converted WHY NOT? into a micro cruiser, he is much harder to steer by moving and adjusting the sail, I think the added weight and deeper draft make it harder to move his CLR and once the dagger board is down it becomes almost impossible. So under his new configuration, he really likes to be steered with the oar. Last year as a lightweight open canoe, steering him rudderless was a piece of cake, but not anymore.
Pity that the experiment has not worked out the way you had hoped. Another canoe ( to create a double canoe like the Polyneseans used for their voyaging) the same as your existing one and ditch the ama? From what you're saying, then maybe you could more easily carry a second smaller rig to change to when the winds come in. Could you swap the scull for a quarter rudder and swap it when you shunt? An alternative maybe, and way off the original theme of being true to pacific design, go for a cat and drop in lug rig - definitely still a cheap sail, that you can make yourself. Plus easy to reef underway. In a blow you don't need to change sails (which personally I always foudn a bit of a struggle in a seaway), just reef, once, or twice if it's really bad. With a second reef in you basically have a lateen sail which Bernd Kohler uses on his cataproa, and I've seen on other tacking proas. Negative (from what you are saying on the spars) is another spar ie mast, boom and gaff (upper spar). A lug would do away with shunting, so you could have a placed location for a rudder.. Anyway, just some thoughts. I'm sure you are mulling over plenty of ideas. And the best of luck with it. Stay warm over winter and catch you on youtube another time. Col
Well, ditching the ama, at the moment is not an option... proas need amas, catamarans are a different bird, they are more complex to build, cost more and have their share of problems. A catamarans mast is putting great loads on the akas, forcing you to build them very strong, this is one of the greatest design problems in multihulls, building akas that are cheap and light.... but that's impossible! if cheap, not light. If light not cheap. On pacific proas, no problem akas have almost no load and almost anything will work! Cheap and light..... So the ama must stay, also the vaka, and the ama must be to windward and the proa must be pacific. Pacific proas, need standing rigging to reduce aka loads. put a freestanding rig on a proa and you now have tensile loads on the akas. The shrouds going from mast to ama, do not only support the mast, but they also lift the ama, reducing aka loads to nothing. Forestay and backstay too help to reduce loads on the overall design, proas must be low stress to be light and strong, making them fast. Now that my friend is the problem! The forestay and backstay form two small triangles ahead and behind of the mast, through those small triangles you will need to pull your big sail towards the ama to stow it and tie it to the bridge deck. BUT the wooden spars are longer then the boat and the sail just came down on the leeward side, now somehow, out at sea you must get those long spars through the standing rigging and the mast and pull all that to windward of the mast . That is not easy, Iv'e done it on land and it was hard work, almost impossible... After that, your smaller sail too must move through that rigging and now, connect halyard, 2 sheets, 2 brailing lines, now go to the bow and connect endless line to the tack... I hope the whole thing hasn't fallen overboard till now....... You see, it's not easy! The rig is not designed to be used in such a manner, it's an amazing rig that is not meant to be taken down. In the Pacific you will depower the sail with the brailing lines and sail on a reach somewhere, there is enough sea space and a reach is enough to get you out of trouble. On "Crystal Clear" I have a rudder that is moved from side to side, it works very well, but attaching and detaching it is not easy, my design that proved to be very complicated to use at sea... so yes I could use a rudder that is moved from side to side, good idea... Thanks for making me think about that, it may be the simplest way to go if I can find a better system then the one I used before. I will think about that option and ho knows....... Thanks for all the ideas, but I believe that the future is in the basic design of a basic pacific proa with a shunting rig, I sailed all kinds of yachts and always had engines, now I want to try and build a true sailboat and never have an engine again. Square sails will never go to windward like triangle sails do. The Lug is a wonderful sail, you are right, but it wont work for me. Where I sail at the moment winds change all the time, so you must always be prepared to sail to windward and you must always be able to reef. Those are the most important things about an engineless boat sailing in small seas............ All d best and Keep Shunting.... Balkan Shipyards. rael.
+Rael Dobkins hi rael lots of interesting points there and obviously you've been thinking. That comment about the qtr rudder was an idea from a chap jn the states who has a proa based on a pirogue flat bottom canoe in Louisiana I think. Cheers and best of luck PS I notice those comments from guys in the Baltic they seem to have some good ideas - go for it !
This might solve your problem with the Greek winds. Reefing could be done from the top ie letting the main mast down and or folding the botton luff up and having ties to keep it up. Never been done before so you would make the flying lanteen able to reef. Watch this and it would become apparent: ua-cam.com/video/qSTDQ1Z1ew8/v-deo.html
Safe and rough offshore sailing.... is a video where I show and explain the advantages of my lashunk rig..... watch it, on UA-cam. The roamy can't shunt, it must change from now to bow, it's not as simple......
Lowering your halyard would add camber to the sail increasing power. Crab Claws if reefed, the extra portion of sail should be tied to the boom, then halyard should be tightened. Meaning, on a shunting CC u must reef from the bottom up, the opposite of all other rigs that reef from the top down. Reefing up, also results in a CE that goes higher and higher the more you reef, not what you want in strong winds..... The problems begin with the fact that the CC wasn't meant to be reefed, we can try to westernize it till the cows come home, still nothing will ever be adequate for a shunting CC, a tacking boat with a CC is a different story, those rigs are simpler and it could be done, but a shunting proa, needs the yard at the top of the mast for it to physically be able to shunt, if u raise your boom with brailing lines and scandalise the sail that way, your windward ability is totally lost, here in land locked waters it wont take long before you will get piled up on a rock. I've thought about it for years, as much as I love the CC, I believe it cant be reefed. I hope someone finds the secret to reefing a shunting CC, still I doubt it.............. I just think that there are more disadvantages in a reefed SHUNTING CC then there are advantages.
@@BalkanShipyards I can appreciate your experience. It was my understanding that the Polynesians just spilled more wind from it with the sheet, lowering the yard with another halyard or lifting the boom with one. I seem to recall in my studies they had something worked out but I can't remember right now what that was. My knowledge of the CC at this point is purely theoretical as I've never yet built one nor sailed one. I have put a fair bit of thought and study into them though. As soon as work/life allows I plan on building at least some RC models to test various things out. Thanks for sharing your experimentation with the world!
This might solve your problem with the Greek winds. Reefing could be done from the top ie letting the main mast down and or folding the botton luff up and having ties to keep it up. Never been done before so you would make the flying lanteen able to reef. Watch this and it would become apparent: ua-cam.com/video/qSTDQ1Z1ew8/v-deo.html
Love your proa, beautiful
Thanx!!! Keep Shunting.... Balkan Shipyards
Very good. Congratulations!
My brother and my sister both visited Greece within past yr. nice people and beautiful country
The ‘shunt’ brought it all together! Boat looks great. Nice work. Satisfying I’m sure. Enjoy
Yea he is fun!!! In a blow he's super charged....... All d best, BSY.
Thank you for that Brother! I thoroughly enjoyed your video clip and love your boat.
Bro, Your energies are very welcome here, we are abliged 2 match d level.... Welcome aboard!!! HAVAYA 30 in the barrel, starting March. Once again we focus on simplicity and cost... All d best, BSY.....
Could you use a "Romy sail rig" aka the flying lanteen sail on your creation. Check youtube clips for vids. The guy that invented it did not go into production. Check it out and make it your own. With your skill level I am sure you could create a totally new beast.
Thanx, though I will use my Chinese Junk Rig, the LaShuNk, check it out on d tube, works very well! Keep shunting, BSY
I just wanted to make a boat like that, a proa that I can take on the roof of the car. Do not have plans or something that I can use as a reference to make the hull?
Here U go Bro! This is how 'WHY NOT?' started, I built him in 5 days! Keep Shunting, Balkan Shipyards
ua-cam.com/video/jACkJPf7yKY/v-deo.htmlsi=QoTv3K9XrFRtslsZ
ua-cam.com/video/vH0x-tZUMY0/v-deo.htmlsi=RT_bnU7dPrDkjayJ
Great, thoughtful, sincere videos! Much appreciated, especially here on inland waters!
BTW, I appreciate the Homeric epithet, the "rosy fingered dawn", and in Greek waters!
Much appreciated, it really helps to know what i'm doing right.... all d best!
Great job! On the boat and on the video. Keep up. Cheers
Joseph, your work on the net has encouraged me and many others. Thank you! Happy u like him, Take care.
Beautiful boat
Thanx 4 d energy injection Paul. All d best.
Thanks !
Thank you, and keep Shunting.... Balkan Shipyards
Great vid.. Love from Liverpool UK
Thanx for commenting. All d best, happy u like him.......
You are quite a character! All the best
Only doing my best...... take care, BSY.
Good idea to use big diameter pipes for carrying proa out of the water, I'm buying it :) both for stony and sandy strands.
Great to see you afloat Rael! You are the answer to all the armchair 'experts' and nay-sayers... but an inspiration to those who have a dream but who have not yet found the courage to try out their ideas.
Good energy is always welcome... It's kinda funny how true it is and how often one will get told "It wont work....."
Ignoring destructive comments is the only way to go on... It gets hard at times, an overlooked detail can prove months of work to be a total failure... One must just understand that success and failure are so tightly woven together, that success actually is a result of failure.
Take care brother.
Hi Rael, as far as "few problems" with reefing, my opinion is:
1) with CC I can reef 50% sail area without loosing quality of profile at all, where to achieve the same with bermuda: II-nd reef on mainsail leaves c.a. 70% area up and stayssail after 50% reduction could hardly work upwind due to deformation and wrong sheets setup,
2) for big winds I never could reef bermuda rig enough and always changed to special stormy sails - that I would also recommend for CC (even easier to apply), and please consider:
2.1) bermuda under special storm sail cannot avoid significant drag from his mast, which is long for at least 130% yacht length, compared to CC with mast length c.a. 70% of vaka length. Higher mast means also higher wind speed at the top, and drag grows as second power of windspeed.
2.2) in rough conditions the wind is often less problem then waves and in such a deep V (if applied) behaves far better then flat bottom yacht with a fin-keel, because deep V hull generates lift even at small speed when a foil has to gain on speed before can generate any lift or their drift helplessly most of the time.
2.3) have you tried to stay adrift? in extremes: low masted, low profile = low air drag proa, can probably drift slower toward danger somewhere downwind and wait for conditions to change longer, then bermuda sloop
3) there can always be conditions which over-helms abilities of your vessel and it is the navigation skill which should always adapt to features of your vessel.
4) skills of sailor and navigator makes the biggest difference to survive :) and I believe I can myself better use reefed CC to survive then regular Bermuda.
Regards
Janusz
Very interesting comment Janusz. The CC is an amazing rig! that's true and I like it a lot!!
I must first begin with the fact that I DON'T want a bermuda rig on a proa, lowering one head sail and raising the other every shunt is too much work... Also too expensive and changing the low stress rig of a proa to a high stress rig of a sloop complicates everything....
I sailed a 22 foot mono from England to Bulgaria. The only sails I had were a genoa and a main, I could reef them enough and sail o.k. to windward even in a force 7 no problem. In the Atlantic in a force 8, I sailed down wind very well with reffed genoa alone, it was a roller furling... She had no problems sailing with only those 2 sails between no wind and very strong winds. She was an old and very strong boat, so her rig could take serious conditions without proper storm sails. I probably wouldn't sail a modern racer cruiser like that....
Waves are the problem, here in the Black Sea they are the worst I've seen, in the ocean even in a normal force 8 (at sea, things are never the same and comparing isn't really possible.... But still....) they don't effect the hulls motion much. Here in the smaller waters, the waves maybe smaller, but they are steep WALLS of water! They rock the boat aggressively, they stop the boat no problem!! Sailors with big yachts that crossed oceans were commenting how even their boats are stopped by these crazy walls...... And these waves just love breaking things....... They are native to the whole region, combine that with ever changing winds and you have a region that demands respect! It's NOT ONLY down to your navigation skills and the ability to make the right choice at the right time, It's down to luck and you being able to safely operate your vessel.
So, in my opinion... On "Why Not?" and on "Crystal Clear" tying in a reef on those long spars, to effectively reef the sail will demand me to be on the vaka using both hands to tie reef knots over the full length of the spars, going from bow to stern. Here, because of those waves, this is not easy and can be very dangerous. In the Pacific no one did this, they used brailing lines to depower the sail. The new sail had no shape but it wasn't a problem because the boat could still sail o.k. on a reach and that was enough to sail to safety and miss the small island that was down wind.
Changing sails seems to me like even a bigger problem then reefing. I have done it on the beach many times, on the water it will be much harder. First moving the big CC through the mast and forestay/backstay from where it was to the other side of the boat, so I can keep it on the akas... That alone puts me in a very dangerous situation, I must throw almost the whole length of the spars into the sea using both hands, so I can turn them and bring them through the mast and rigging. I must do that standing up (probably) using both hands and very close to the edge of the boat, I feel that falling off is just a question of time...... Once that's done, you will need to do it all over, back to front, with your smaller CC. Now you will need to connect minimum 5 ropes to the new sail. On land no problem, at sea in rough conditions and "WALL" waves just dangerous. Again, this was not done in the pacific.
Janusz, this is my opinion only, I'm not arguing with the different qualities of different rigs....
I just think that the CC is not always the best rig for a proa and I am now designing a single shunting rig that probably wont be as powerful (but who knows...) but I hope and believe will be safer and easier to reef....
Keep Shunting
Balkan Shipyards.
Rael.
Hi Rael, I believe it is possible to design CC rig for "Why Not", which will:
- have same full size sail area as your sail which you use now,
- can be dropped down in strong wing straight on the deck
- reefed without spending much time and hoisted back
- stored safely in case you use stormy rig
- very easy to replace with stormy rig
You probably have focused much more on the outrigger itself then designing slightly more sophisitcated rig :).
Pity to hear you cannot safely move around whole vaka on high seas but that is nothing to do with CC and you can improve this, probably .
My experience sailing proas in strong wind is limited to Pjoa and Mata Pjoa (16.7sqm on 200+-kg vessel).
Rig was designed to utilize full sail when going upwind in force 4B real wind, so can handle 5B apperent, "no problem" ;).
Sailing on a reach or with waves (up to 2m high on the Baltic) we managed 6B steady wind (and stronger squalls) just brailing hard. When we wanted to strand we just needed to slow down to 6-8 knots by towing spare sheet.
The issue in sailing upwind against steepy waves of Baltic Sea, is rather high speed you gain on full sail, which requires special technique to slow down to 4-6 knots. Depowering sail with brailing lines is not adequate on this course. Reefing is the right answer unless you need even smaller rig (?7B), but because proa makes one system, so it is the outrigger which I see a week chain link then, rather then the rig.
That's good work! and a very big sail!!
Reefing a CC... It probably is possible. But it's not safe. I will need to change the whole deck layout to make it possible. Our boats are different, our decks are very different.... Deck size, mast position, rigging position.....
We see....................
also seems like you should be able to put some kind of a rail going from bow to bow around your lee pod to guide your tack with some kind of "tack haul" so you could quickly shunt without having to leave your seat.
Possible, but not simple, or I cant find a simple/cheap way to get it done.......
@@BalkanShipyards put a pully on each bow and make a rail/arc fasctened at each bow and on your lee pod and then run a line from the tack thru each pully back to your cockpit then just pull the tack across when you go to shunt.
@@VigilanceTech My new LaSunk rig has something of the sort....., I love it! Check it out: ua-cam.com/video/4qP7Jy8fqiA/v-deo.html All d best.
@@BalkanShipyards look at this Force-5, maybe even on the verge of Force-6. NO REEFING!
ua-cam.com/video/HSJUmXcP0Fc/v-deo.html
@@BalkanShipyards yeah, that's basically right, but with a CC your tack guide (or what you called the "yard rail;" however it seems to me it should be "tack" something :) ) would be fastened at each bow and to the lee side of your lee pod (if you have one, otherwise you'd probably need some kind of support there in the middle) with a block fastened to each bow and to the tack. That line could be a big loop loose enough to reach to wherever you choose to pilot from. When you shunt you just pull the loop and the tack would move effortlessly from bow to bow. I think it might even pull your mast over. You wouldn't lift the tack and step it onto the bow but just let it hang there pulled up tight to that bow's block (after you cleat off the loop close to where you're piloting). The tack guide just stops the tack from getting fouled up on your lee pod or anything else on the lee side of your boat and allows it to make a nice smooth arc from bow to bow. It also could be made of some smooth material like polypropylene plastic to prevent chafe of the sail and boom.
How is the foot of the crab claw sail made fast to either bow when shunting?
If u take the time to properly watch my rigging video u will find all the answers u need. Pacific proa free design 2 ua-cam.com/video/vH0x-tZUMY0/v-deo.html
Congratulations, good job. Does it have an asymmetrical hull? I see, it shouldn't be, because it has a keel in the ama.
Thanx!!! Yes asymmetrical Vaka, and daggerboard in Ama, the dagger reduces leeway, it works well. Happy u like him... This is my second Proa, my third one is the best, soon we build a big cruising Proa based on the last one... here's a VIDEO: ua-cam.com/video/F7TjCkXuoLg/v-deo.html Keep Shunting, Balkan Shipyards.
@@BalkanShipyards Your job is really cool. I have a proa project, it is still in the model phase. You have an Instagram account, I would like to send you some photos of the model.
@@BalkanShipyards I just sent some pictures.
@@guilhermedilascio9289 Where did you send them? find me on facebook, my page is balkan shipyards
@@BalkanShipyards I sent it on Instagram, I don't have facebook. if u have an email or whatsapp, if you prefer, i can send again.
P.S. "...would be parallel to the boom", and thereby, when tied down to the boom, bring down the COE. Of course this would exclude the use of sail sleeves at least for the yard, in favor of slides, or hoops. The COE would also go forward a bit, which is a good place to go, as it tends to move backwards, as the wind picks up. Lee helm could easily be compensated by lengthening the (ADJUSTABLE ((sorry for harping on this, but it is a sadly neglected steering device for Proas, the more important, the bigger the size of the boat, as the impact of the crew weight grows less important.)) weather shroud. That would also bring down The COE a trifle, and at the same influence positively the heeling Proas dramatic loss of righting moment.
Servus, Reto
My previous idea for WHY NOT? was a "LaCat" rig.... The idea was a Lateen sail that looks and works like a Cat rig, so LaCat.... The idea was an almost vertical yard with a luff track and sliders on the sail, a canting mast holding the yard at 2/3 height, so loops wouldn't work. The sail would have 3 reefs with metal grommets.
I was thinking of a square head sail with full battens (the cheaper option would be a gaff sail). So the sail would work like the Crab Claw, the yard would move from bow to bow.....
One thing I love about Cat rigs is the wishbone boom.... So, we will put on one of those.... Now, how will you reef? You need a boom at the bottom of the sail where you could tie your reef lines.... O.K. lets have one of those.... So the wishbone can go now? No, we need it too! On flat top sails leech tension is very important to prevent excessive sail twist and for such a long boom (over half boat length) a boom vang that's connected to the yard?? will probably just be shit! So we keep the wishbone too..... I think they are cool, because the push the sail out and down at once. So now, except for a big expense, it's going to add some weight!!!
I drew this sail 1000 times, I thought about it for weeks.... A 9 square meter full battened main sail with a track will probably cost almost as much as the whole boat. A big portion of the weight that I will add is high up, the yard was going to be a plywood wing. When I drew the sail in proportion and compared it with my Crab Claw, The CE went up by 100%!!!
Bottom line, too expensive (probably). Too complicated (maybe). Too heavy (again probably). But the straw that broke the camel's back was, CE at double the height! No way.....
So back to the Crab Claw....
By the way, can you shunt once reefed and you have lowered the yard? does the new lower position of the sail allow the sail to be moved over to the new bow?
All d best.
Keep Shunting.....
Rael.
Yes, I can shunt with lowered yard, but the mast has to be trimmed enough to leeward, so that the yardtip doesn't interfere with masttip. Again: adjustable shroud.
But, as i said, I have sailed it in really severe conditions, and I have to admit COE really down would be much better. So for your previous Idea: Leave out the wishbone and the fat top, keep the tilting mast the steep yard, the sliders, and the shorter boom, sread the spars a bit, and you'll get the same reefable Crabclaw as I have in mind, it is clear and logical.
Servus, Reto
Sounds interesting.... A Crab Claw that looks and works like a Cat Rig. Your new rig design sounds like the first "Cat Claw"..... Do you agree??? All d best.
Rael
Aye, a crabbish "Cat Claw" it is.
Servus, Reto
Good video. Does your conclusion regarding the crab claw sail means that you might consider keeping " Crystal Clear " a schooner ? Either way I am staying tuned. Thanks for the knowledge and good luck with what is still to come.
Hey Ramius, Thanx 4 liking. As for CC, I believe the schooner is going 2 d junk yard... Still I'm not sure yet what exactly I will do on her, as it depends on how my new rig will work on "WHY NOT?" The plan at the moment is single sail, It's easier to use, cheaper and better to windward, sounds like a winner to me.....
In Port Moresby proas, they changed the crab-claw (that really looks like a crab claw) to sprit sails, then again, not that easy to reef, more of an "on/off" sail. A lug sail, fully battened or not seems better in this regard.
All 3 (crab, sprit, lug) seem to be a very good compromise performance/cost.
A concept from east PNG I like are the sails used in Ninigo.
Ramius Rosin, can you work on a design using a single crabclaw with reefing points on it?
Share the invaluable experience of building this prota type can you? I'm interested in the length of the width and height of the canoe? And how to attach the sail from below?))))
Boat building clip: ua-cam.com/video/jACkJPf7yKY/v-deo.html
rigging clip: ua-cam.com/video/vH0x-tZUMY0/v-deo.html
Good luck!
..so that is WHY ;)
Great video. The sound seems to be gone though, did it get a copyright strike?
I'm sure you have plenty of ideas about the rig, but just some food for thought: Have you considered something a bit like a crabclaw rig with battens, a bit like a junk rig, so if you want to reef you just pull the reefing line on one of the battens and everything below that furls up?
Good luck anyhow, I'll be interested to see what you come up with.
I too am thinking of some sort of jiffy reefing for a crab claw, with or without battens I haven't decided yet.... The main thing I'm trying to solve is reefing from the top down, vs the usual way that is from the bottom up. The standard for reefing CC's is raising the boom, that also raises the CE. My idea (if it works...) will reduce sail area from the top without raising the boom or dropping the yard...... confused? I was too, so I drew it a million times and it seems to work on paper, finally....
.
As for making it.... At the moment I'm taking time to do other stuff (I decided I need a break and am focusing on some high class freestyle furniture...) Once done, I will start making models with cloth and probably rig up a simple wind tunnel for testing.
As soon as I get back to it, I will start filming and uploading again.... One thing I do know is that the future is with canting masts.........
All d best.
Good luck!
And yes, I'd imagine a mast which can lean over would make it easier to deal with the sail getting smaller.
Well, it's a good start, but like anything new, the details need to be adjusted.
Have you considered a Balestron Rig?
Yes and No... The Balestron may be a pretty good concept, though I have a few problems with it....
It may well be the most expensive rig in the world! I mess with proas just because I believe that if kept simple, one could get more speed to the dollar then any other vessel. A Balestron will add too many dollars to the equation, putting the vessel in a higher category. Simple hulls need simple rigs, royalty and poverty just don't mix...
The Balestron will be heavy since it's a high stress free standing Bermuda, such a rig must be seriously designed and well made. The Chinese junk also a free standing rig, could be designed and built for very little, adding little weight (if any...) to the overall vessel, because it is a very low stress rig. This is what sets these unstayed rigs far apart.
Finally the shroud going from mast head to ama, I believe is fundamental to the overall strength of the pacific proa.
Not only does it hold the mast and lift the ama, it also reduces aka loads to almost nothing allowing the builder to make very simple and lightweight akas that will live a happy and stress free life......
My 2 cents only....
The search goes on......
super!
Yea!!! He's a ton of fun.....
Great trip, and really interesting to hear your thoughts. How did you get on with steering using the mainsheet?
Hi Robin. Since I converted WHY NOT? into a micro cruiser, he is much harder to steer by moving and adjusting the sail, I think the added weight and deeper draft make it harder to move his CLR and once the dagger board is down it becomes almost impossible. So under his new configuration, he really likes to be steered with the oar. Last year as a lightweight open canoe, steering him rudderless was a piece of cake, but not anymore.
That's really interesting, thanks!
Pity that the experiment has not worked out the way you had hoped. Another canoe ( to create a double canoe like the Polyneseans used for their voyaging) the same as your existing one and ditch the ama? From what you're saying, then maybe you could more easily carry a second smaller rig to change to when the winds come in. Could you swap the scull for a quarter rudder and swap it when you shunt?
An alternative maybe, and way off the original theme of being true to pacific design, go for a cat and drop in lug rig - definitely still a cheap sail, that you can make yourself. Plus easy to reef underway. In a blow you don't need to change sails (which personally I always foudn a bit of a struggle in a seaway), just reef, once, or twice if it's really bad. With a second reef in you basically have a lateen sail which Bernd Kohler uses on his cataproa, and I've seen on other tacking proas. Negative (from what you are saying on the spars) is another spar ie mast, boom and gaff (upper spar). A lug would do away with shunting, so you could have a placed location for a rudder..
Anyway, just some thoughts. I'm sure you are mulling over plenty of ideas. And the best of luck with it. Stay warm over winter and catch you on youtube another time.
Col
Well, ditching the ama, at the moment is not an option... proas need amas, catamarans are a different bird, they are more complex to build, cost more and have their share of problems. A catamarans mast is putting great loads on the akas, forcing you to build them very strong, this is one of the greatest design problems in multihulls, building akas that are cheap and light.... but that's impossible! if cheap, not light. If light not cheap.
On pacific proas, no problem akas have almost no load and almost anything will work! Cheap and light..... So the ama must stay, also the vaka, and the ama must be to windward and the proa must be pacific.
Pacific proas, need standing rigging to reduce aka loads. put a freestanding rig on a proa and you now have tensile loads on the akas. The shrouds going from mast to ama, do not only support the mast, but they also lift the ama, reducing aka loads to nothing. Forestay and backstay too help to reduce loads on the overall design, proas must be low stress to be light and strong, making them fast.
Now that my friend is the problem! The forestay and backstay form two small triangles ahead and behind of the mast, through those small triangles you will need to pull your big sail towards the ama to stow it and tie it to the bridge deck. BUT the wooden spars are longer then the boat and the sail just came down on the leeward side, now somehow, out at sea you must get those long spars through the standing rigging and the mast and pull all that to windward of the mast . That is not easy, Iv'e done it on land and it was hard work, almost impossible... After that, your smaller sail too must move through that rigging and now, connect halyard, 2 sheets, 2 brailing lines, now go to the bow and connect endless line to the tack... I hope the whole thing hasn't fallen overboard till now....... You see, it's not easy! The rig is not designed to be used in such a manner, it's an amazing rig that is not meant to be taken down. In the Pacific you will depower the sail with the brailing lines and sail on a reach somewhere, there is enough sea space and a reach is enough to get you out of trouble.
On "Crystal Clear" I have a rudder that is moved from side to side, it works very well, but attaching and detaching it is not easy, my design that proved to be very complicated to use at sea... so yes I could use a rudder that is moved from side to side, good idea... Thanks for making me think about that, it may be the simplest way to go if I can find a better system then the one I used before. I will think about that option and ho knows.......
Thanks for all the ideas, but I believe that the future is in the basic design of a basic pacific proa with a shunting rig, I sailed all kinds of yachts and always had engines, now I want to try and build a true sailboat and never have an engine again. Square sails will never go to windward like triangle sails do. The Lug is a wonderful sail, you are right, but it wont work for me. Where I sail at the moment winds change all the time, so you must always be prepared to sail to windward and you must always be able to reef. Those are the most important things about an engineless boat sailing in small seas............
All d best and Keep Shunting....
Balkan Shipyards.
rael.
+Rael Dobkins hi rael lots of interesting points there and obviously you've been thinking. That comment about the qtr rudder was an idea from a chap jn the states who has a proa based on a pirogue flat bottom canoe in Louisiana I think. Cheers and best of luck PS I notice those comments from guys in the Baltic they seem to have some good ideas - go for it !
This might solve your problem with the Greek winds. Reefing could be
done from the top ie letting the main mast down and or folding the
botton luff up and having ties to keep it up. Never been done before so
you would make the flying lanteen able to reef. Watch this and it would
become apparent: ua-cam.com/video/qSTDQ1Z1ew8/v-deo.html
Safe and rough offshore sailing.... is a video where I show and explain the advantages of my lashunk rig..... watch it, on UA-cam. The roamy can't shunt, it must change from now to bow, it's not as simple......
to reef your crab claw can't you just lower your halyard a bit and spill the wind out of it?
Lowering your halyard would add camber to the sail increasing power. Crab Claws if reefed, the extra portion of sail should be tied to the boom, then halyard should be tightened. Meaning, on a shunting CC u must reef from the bottom up, the opposite of all other rigs that reef from the top down. Reefing up, also results in a CE that goes higher and higher the more you reef, not what you want in strong winds..... The problems begin with the fact that the CC wasn't meant to be reefed, we can try to westernize it till the cows come home, still nothing will ever be adequate for a shunting CC, a tacking boat with a CC is a different story, those rigs are simpler and it could be done, but a shunting proa, needs the yard at the top of the mast for it to physically be able to shunt, if u raise your boom with brailing lines and scandalise the sail that way, your windward ability is totally lost, here in land locked waters it wont take long before you will get piled up on a rock. I've thought about it for years, as much as I love the CC, I believe it cant be reefed. I hope someone finds the secret to reefing a shunting CC, still I doubt it.............. I just think that there are more disadvantages in a reefed SHUNTING CC then there are advantages.
@@BalkanShipyards I can appreciate your experience. It was my understanding that the Polynesians just spilled more wind from it with the sheet, lowering the yard with another halyard or lifting the boom with one. I seem to recall in my studies they had something worked out but I can't remember right now what that was. My knowledge of the CC at this point is purely theoretical as I've never yet built one nor sailed one. I have put a fair bit of thought and study into them though. As soon as work/life allows I plan on building at least some RC models to test various things out. Thanks for sharing your experimentation with the world!
This might solve your problem with the Greek winds. Reefing could be
done from the top ie letting the main mast down and or folding the
botton luff up and having ties to keep it up. Never been done before so
you would make the flying lanteen able to reef. Watch this and it would
become apparent: ua-cam.com/video/qSTDQ1Z1ew8/v-deo.html