Bend It Like Beyer Garratt (with Huw Jones) - Railway Mania PODCAST #10
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 гру 2019
- Garratts were one of the most successful articulated locomotive types worldwide. In this episode, we briefly cover the history of Herbert W. Garratt's brainchild, followed by a chat with Huw Jones of the Welsh Highland Railway, who works full time keeping the NGG16s in traffic. Huw tells us about the idiosyncrasies of the Garratt design, and what makes them different to a regular loco.
Please subscribe to RAILWAY MANIA for more podcast episodes!
www.railwaymania.net/
Correction In the intro, I say a Fairlie uses two boilers, this is incorrect. I should have said 'a double ended boiler'. Apologies for the confusion.
I am so grateful to all the following people who allowed me to use some of their footage in this project, please take a look at their channels for more:
Will Stratford
/ @willstratford
Andy and Dandan Fisher
/ andydandanfisher
Paul Ravenscroft
/ @paulravenscroft1704
Peter Brackenbury
/ @peterbrackenbury
Video Mitch
/ @video_mitch
Heisler
/ @hiesler
Cutting Edge Video
/ @tomandmattwaldren
Historical Railway Images
flickr.com/photos/124446949@N06/
A full list of Wikimedia attributions is on the Railway Mania website.
Home to the Railway Mania Podcast and the Sudrian Histories project, Railway Mania is a hub for railway enthusiast entertainment, including videos on real-life railways as well as modelling builds and tutorials.
The Railway Mania Podcast is available to listen on all podcasting apps, as well as being hosted on the Railway Mania UA-cam channel. Often the video versions will include additional information and footage where possible.
For anyone wishing to give it a go and browse the back catalogue, all episodes are available on the website, please check out the shop and see what merchandise might take your fancy:
www.railwaymania.net/
I remember going from Dar es Salaam to Mwanza in Sept 63 for my first posting. It took 2.5 days as the line had washed out and had to be repaired. The engine was a Beyer-Garrett on East African Railways. Marvellous.
Well I’m glad to see that K1 did return to steam in the end
Service requirements between steam and diesel locos are what killed steam; strength of the thing was never an issue. The Garrett is a really good example of a decently well thought out way to get 2 locomotives for the price of 1. They've been fascinating to me since I heard about them. My Grampa was a roundhouse foreman for the C,B,&Q in northern Wyoming from about 1923 to 1960 or so, and told some tales about steam's service complexity compared diesel's; he knew it well since he lived through the transition. I think steam could still have a future with the modern engineering plastics playing a part in the flexible, wearable joints. Love to see it; wonder if I will! Great episode, thanks for putting it up!
Steam certainly could be modernized. High tech fluid dynamics modeling, advanced fabrication, and centralized lubrication could build locomotives that, while requiring skill to operate, could keep rolling without expensive electronics maintenance, long after a typical diesel would need major electronics repairs. As long as a steam locomotive could remain in steam for extended periods, working 24/7, the advantage of the diesel's quick start-up time disappears. Total cost of ownership over the life of the locomotive could outweigh its inherent thermodynamic limitations.
Back 6 months later and I like LMS garratts ( because they actually operated on UK railway’s ) and I still like the NGG16 garratts.
I've always been enthralled with the Garratt type Locomotive. I was actually really surprised to hear that Baldwin had Garratts patent here in the states, or did am I misunderstanding that. It did always seem odd how not one American rail road used a Garratt. A narrow gauge railroad like the Rio Grande Southern seem'd like a good place for one at the time. You know now that I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if Baldwin didn't sell any Garratt's to keep ALCo & Lima away from building their own. That or an American Garratt would be so unbelievably large it would be impractical. Its a shame the LNER's U1 and none of the LMS Garratts survived into preservation. At least we have the Australian AD60s! The Aussie 6000's are definitely my favorite Garratt. Good lord what I'd do to see an AD60 in the US next to UP #3985...this was a fantastic listen. Really enjoyed it. I'll have to get over to Wales to see the little 2' Garratt's!
Yes it's one of those things, the Mallet design really did well in the USA but not the Fairlie or Garratt. The Welsh Highland is definitely worth a trip if you are nearby!
Plus the Shay, Heisler, and Climax locomotives accomplished the same thing and could go on even steeper grades.
Yes, US Garratts would have gotten elephantine. Especially considering super locos like the PRR S-series. Compound 4-4=4-4's on a RIGID frame. Yikes!
Hi, thanks for posting this. I came here from watching a short film on Reddit re: Loco engines. Growing up in Gorton, Manchester I did find the local history quite fascinating (in a time when DJ-ing and Football seemed to be the true dominant for a youngster).. The immediate area (it was a Council estate, built late 70's) all had the streets named after Beyer, Peacock, Garrat etc. Even a School on that estate was called Peacock School...
I believe Beyer (of German decent) opened up a University in the City centre of Manchester) Thy all heavily invested into the wider communities. The steel works on Gorton Lane still stands today and there is still the old Rolls Royce works a stone throw away. This area was a high target in the second world was as one might expect to hear. An old friend when I was younger lived on Belle Vue Street and there was an old Luftwaffe Bomb found, in their garden (which was next to the old barracks) That was a fun couple of days as a kid.
I am now 45 and still talk about how important the efforts Of the local work force and owners of Beyer/Peacock were. To see some of these engines hitting one hundred years old still running daily in India gives me some pride of my humble beginnings just growing up there. the older folk always talked about how it was back then... I watched this area decline as like many other Industrial heritage sites around the UK, To say a dying breed is now an understatement, there is such a sadness.
I do feel our leaders past and present sold out this nation, once the best engineering centre of the whole world... My father worked on the Railways ie: British Rail but, he was made redundant when the gov sold out the peoples ownership of this infrastructure... I was an engineer for many years after I left school :)
Thanks, i just had to share this
Hello Mark, thanks so much for your comment. I agree, the employers such as Beyer-Peacock were huge pillars of their local areas. The resilience of their machines was excellent. Glad you enjoyed it!
The entire western world has been sold out. Those in the shadows that control the world hate us. They call us 'eaters' and want us dead. There are no coincidences. Nothing happens unless they want it to, although that seems to be changing. We will have to wait and see what happens.
The research work you have done here is exemplary & thus the information 'density ' is superb ; I am hard to please & you have indeed held my attention from start to finish . Thank you .
Wow, thank you!
Here's a design idea for the reversing controls, to prevent their getting out of balance because of wear. To start, couple the reversing control in the cab mechanically to the valve gear of the high-pressure engine only. Then have some kind of steam or hydraulic or air circuit to make a servomechanism on the low-pressure engine follow the actual position of the reverser on the high-pressure engine.
Franklin Type B rotary cam poppet valves made with modern alloys could make valves better.
Excellent footage and very informative.
Thank you, I am glad you liked it! Will Stratford's drone footage is great :)
Another good podcast, keep them coming i'm catching up lol.
What a cracking video
Thank you so much
Thanks Philip, glad you enjoyed!
This was a very interesting bit of facts.
I already know a bit about Garrats, travelled behind and even on them, have actually driven one for 10 minutes, and have built several models.
But the information contained in the interview did still teach me some new facts I didn't know, like the influence of all the joints in the reverser gear linkages on the synchronicity of the two power units.
I did a full photographic survey of No.87 4 years ago when it was still in service, and like mentioned, it has several differences from the later NGG16s.
It was in fact an evolutionary model in between the earlier NGG13 and later NGG16 models, as it did have the inside bissel trucks instead of the fixed axle with side play like on the NGG13, but mostly No.87 is more like a NGG13, externally most visible are the shorter cab with the valve manifold mounted in a hole in the front of it instead of further forward from the cab like on later ones which makes it a hotter cab to work in regarding the driver I spoke to.
And there is the somewhat shorter and differently shaped water tank, and many not so visible differences like the brakes and many fittings.
Ahh thanks Tom, I had not realised just how different 87 was from its classmates, like you say something of a stepping stone in design.
A very interesting video, I hope you will make some more on this subject. Martin. Thailand.
Thanks Martin!
Glad that the algo served you up. I enjoyed the look at Garratts. The big Rhodesian Railways engines were impressive. The SAR NG lines were my introduction to the Welsh Highland, which I started following early 2000s. Liked and Subscribed!
Thank you!
I really appreciate this production, looking forward to similar podcasts
Fantastic video here. I subbed.
This is fantastically well-researched and scripted. Gonna spam the link everywhere I think I can get away with it, as you deserve more than 984 subscribers!
Wow thank you!
Gret information .Thanks
I have been fascinate by Garratts since I saw one in Railway Museum , New Delhi, India.
There is one operational in Kharagpur section of South Eastern Railway.
@@user-fg2bf1gd7t Great
my local railway has two garretts and they are both the last of their class fyansford No.2 which only two of them were built and their based on the WAGR garrertt and the last ASG (Australian Standard Garrett) G33
K1 and K2 for the north east Dundas tramway! Zeehan to Williamsford, western Tasmania!!
That green garrat is from the ffestiniog Welsh Highland railway in caernarfon the north of Wales in the UK, I would know, that railway is very nostalgic and is my favourite railway to ride
An addendum to the Garrett program! It seems Alco DID pick up the Beyer license,as I have a book on Canadian Pacific motive power,that says that Alco was prepared to make a Garrett for use,and they almost did it! Baldwin also built Articulated locomotives,including a geared type,trying to get around Shay,Heisler, and Climax patents! That would be an interesting line of inquiry to follow,and,oh yes,Climax,did build a diesel engine,so there was cross over! Thank you for a most interesting program,about those OBSOLETE,but never dieing engines!!🚂🚂🚂😇👍👍👍👍👍
I wonder how massive American garratts would have gotten if they existed. Probably would have gotten to the super garratt (perhaps with a few revisions like a even larger boiler, coal space, and simple expansion). Regardless, the mallets and simple articulateds where and still are very impressive machines.
(RM please do the mallets. There is a growing amount of footage of a few back in action or approaching that, and you did a good job for the other two articulated types.)
Awww yeah there is definitely going to be a Mallet episode!
oh yeah we got the big boy the aligheny i think i heard something about the AC 12 getting restored
One Fact omitted from nearly all Garratt loco videos, is that Italy ordered 1metre gauge Garrats for the French-built Addis-Abeba to Djibouti rail line, once Italy conquered Abyssinia in 1936.
Several ran into the Post-war period, whilst the one delivered to Libya, in the late 30s, was scrapped by the postwar Idris el Senussi govt. As was the entire Italian 95cm gauge colonial rail network in Libya.
DocAV Australia.
Ansaldo of Genova ( shipbuilder, cannon foundry, locobuilder) supplied the Garratts.
Ooh that's really interesting! I'd not heard of those before, thank you.
The shorter Garret boiler is less at risk of having a dry firebox top when it is nose down. *I’ve seen the wobbly axel with a ball in the middle. The axel tube is a simple hexagon type of thing inside and the drive axel running up the middle has the flat sided ball. A bit mental, but I can see the idea of it :D
Really enjoyed this episode, I've read a bit about Garratt's but never knew their origin, thanks for covering this topic. I certainly would like to hear more about UK Garratts, I know a bit about the LMS ones (since I've seen a video on the new Heljan model of one) but not much on how the LNER U1 did. Also, if you don't mind a quick topic suggestion, I'd like to hear more about oil firing vs coal firing, based off this episode I think there's some potential for a podcast episode there.
You're right there, Patrick, it could be interesting to look into fuel types for an episode, I'll add to my notes!
You can read about the u1 on the lner encyclopedia. Also, i agree, fuels would be a interesting subject.
@@jacobditmars8414 Thanks for the recommendation, I think I've run across it before, but not looked thoroughly (I'll look again).
Heljan garratt re-uses the chassis design of the old tri-ang Davy crockett! look at the wheel spacing.
Samuel L. Jackson might not design steam locos, but he is an excellent teacher of the English language.
im guessing the articulation on the leading ng15 driving wheel is similar to Heywood radial.
and about a week ago, K1 moved to Statfold Barn
Yes the news of K1 moving gave me the shot in the arm to finish this video! I believe the Heywood and KH systems are similar, I hope to make an episode in the future that is about more unusual articulation systems. Thanks!
While I’m not sure there is enough information for a full podcast or even a conversation, I was wondering: Have you considered covering the feasibility of the proposed “Super Garratt” either just as a thought exercise or chatting with some individuals who might be more knowledgeable or insightful? There are very little trustworthy (or serious) websites or forums covering the Super Garratt and even less having made models and none have made a video directly about it.
In case you aren’t aware of this loco, apparently Beyer Peacock tried to stretch the Garratt concept to the absolute wherein instead of the traditional Garratt basically being two single frame locos back to back, the Super Garratt was two Mallets joined back to back. The existing designs I’m aware of were in standard gauge and cape gauge, offering up to 215,000 lb starting tractive effort from a 2-6-6-2+2-6-6-2 wheel arrangement.
Also a personal question of mine: If the Super Garratt type of articulation had been adopted in the US, what wheel arrangement would you think would be the most adopted among the class 1 railroads?
As per the patent with 2-6-6-2+2-6-6-2’s?
Even bigger with a 2-8-8-2+2-8-8-2?
2-10-10-2+2-10-10-2’s!?
2-12-12-2+2-12-12-2’s?!?
Some other wheel arrangement?
Imagine a 7 1/4 inch version of K1! It would be huge.
If we are talking about Tasmanian Government Railways K1, it isn't that big for a Garrett.
@@InevitableMe Narrow gauge scale models are larger than standard gauge.
@@donotwantahandle1111 Yes, but K1 is tiny.
There is one 2 foot guage ex SAR garratt in the US along wiht a SAR 2-8-2 on a private railroad!
Garratts are so cool! I've actually seen one in real life! (at the puffing billy railway)
GMAM Garratt locomotive and NGG16 Garratt’s.
Would be nice to get either an HO or LGB models of the Garratt. If it is the LGB, one option would be a kit form where you can assemble it. Whether it be a 2-6-2-2-6-2 (4-6-4-4-6-4) or the 2-8-2-2-8-2. Even a 3d printer version in LGB scale would be nice. Are there any dvds available specifically dealing with the different wheel arrangements that the Garratts had?
Puffing billy hase 2 garratts G42 an original VR 2foot 6inch loco and NGG16 129 recently regaged and restord to 2foot 6inch gage operation and Australia also had the ASG/AUSTRALIAN STANDARD GARRATT type. 1 servives ASG33 at the Queenscliff railway with another garratt fyensford Cement No2 a 2-6-0+0-6-2 loco
Where did you get the photo of the articulated flatbed?
Wikimedia Commons, the full list of photo attributions is on the Railway Mania website:
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:LMS_16-wheeled_wagon_for_exceptional_loads_(CJ_Allen,_Steel_Highway,_1928).jpg
Was there any Garrett locomotive mad for the uk, and are there any left?
(Main line size?)
Yep 3 types. 0-4-0+0-4-0 for industrial use (steel and coal) of which there were 3 built and one survives.
preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/beyer-peacock-company-works-no-6841-william-francis-0-4-00-4-0t/
LMS 2-6-0+0-6-2 built for heavy coal trains. Mixed fortunes due to a few faults and the labour involved. 33 built, all scrapped.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Garratt
LNER U1 2-8-0+0-8-2. Originally a GCR project, but ended up as 2 x 3-cylinder units (6 cylinders total). Designed for banking duties, performed ok at that but not at hauling trains over long distances. Scrapped.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_U1
Hope that helps!
Thanks for the information
It's a shame one of our four preserved NSWGR AD60 Garratts is rusting away in a field, especially sucks knowing it was the last steam locomotive to be withdrawn in NSW.
There's some amazing drone footage of it on YT
@@RailwayManiaNet True, just wish we could see it preserved but it belongs to Dorrigo so since they like to let their locomotives to rot we won't see any preservation.
The Failure of the NZR garratt actually changed the course of NZR's loco development. That's why the K/Ka/Kb and J/Ja/Jb exist to begin wit
Ah that's interesting. So that is down the road of conventional locos hauling mid-sized trains? I must do more research on NZ rail.
You should. This country had very unique landscapes and some very interesting solution developed to get rail to cross them.
Look into the H CLASS Fell Engines designed to safely climb and descend the 1:15 Rimutaka Incline railway.
what about the 0-4-0+0-4-0 garratts?
you forgot to mention G42 at Puffing Billy railway in victoria australia
Here is some for those interested :
Victorian Railways 2ft 6in gauge Garratt G42 as preserved :
ua-cam.com/video/9117zH4YU1Q/v-deo.html
40:15 what is that right-of-way cutting through the water?
I might be wrong but I believe it's the old trackbed, the original tunnel having been flooded when the hydroelectric scheme was built.
Ahhh, I see! It is the old routing of the Ffestiniog. www.openstreetmap.org/way/402796770
wait 130 she was just steamed a couple months ago
What is the name of the place in 14:16 ?
Rhyd Ddu, it's the passing point on the Welsh Highland Railway.
Thx .
Where did you learn that the Baldwin Locomotive Works had the rights to manufacture garratts in North America? I can't find a source that backs up that claim.
In a book called ‘Engines that Bend’
@@RailwayManiaNet Is there a corresponding citation or footnote in the book, and if so what is the citation?
11:07 the only operational 'super Garratt' in Australia, 6029, running on the main line from Sydney's Central Station toward Strathfield Station if I'm not mistaken. Two of those locos used to haul 1,500t coal trains up a 1/40 grade (there's some old black and white footage of that somewhere). Some fairly serious grunt, and (despite the noise) I imagine the fireman liked having the mechanical stoker, especially in summer.
Here's the double-header footage (not suitable for those worried about air pollution, lol): ua-cam.com/video/-1EWpCQP7eE/v-deo.html
Cracking bit of footage that. Also worth a watch is this one - 'Steam on the Main North'
ua-cam.com/video/ePpG4tVHSMQ/v-deo.html
@@RailwayManiaNet Glad you liked it. Thanks for the link; I've seen it before, but doesn't mean I'm not going to enjoy watching it again.
Cheers
The 6029 isn't a "Super Garratt" it's an AD60, The "Super Garratt" was never built.
To put into perspective of just how big the Super Garratt was, the AD60 was a 4-8-4+4-8 the proposed "Super Garratt" was a 2-6-6-2+2-6-6-2 That's a double quad design.
Unfortunately this monster was designed in 1927 and because of the depression hitting a few years later no one was interested in buying one.
It's a shame that it's impossible to hear the sound of the engine with such chatterbox !! great footage but boring comments...
Haha! It's a podcast, mate, the chatter is kind of the point. The footage is just to give something to look at.